Forstaff Avalon

[Jethro Gibbs]

Forstaff Management have been sacked , Terminated , & Gone .:D

[boeingsgoing]

How long before the rest of the company shuts shop????

Now that the 737's and 767's have been pulled of the maintenance plan there and with 2 months left of the 744 re-config project.........might be all done by November!!!!!

[AEROMEDIC]

Jethro,

Have you got more information on this.?

Qantas has oversight at Avalon and it would be good to know if this cascades to Qantas staff. :sad:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Qantas staff have already been told they want some to take VR the end is getting closer as each day goes by.

[AEROMEDIC]

So how did you find this out, Jethro
When did it occur and why? (Why is probably obvious)
What's the final date?
Have the Forstaff employees been told?

[Bagus]

Qantas very tight lipped about Avalon,sometime a lot of work coming to Avalon,now Forstaff management sacked and aircraft pulled out of Avalon,management not saying anything.rumours is by November 180 jobs gone

[Syd eng]

Makes the C check jobs getting dropped on 747-400 A checks in Sydney lately seem like this is happening.

[AEROMEDIC]

Several admin and payroll staff have been let go too as I have found out.
No advice from Forstaff yet and morale is rock bottom.
With the work moved to other locations, this leaves a lot of people to do only a little work.
When the going gets tough...... the management abandon the employees. :mad:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Lets face the facts the payroll girl is running it now and there have been so many problems with payroll over the years the end is near .

[QF94]

All those years ago when Avalon was set up as an "overflow" facility for the work Sydney HM weren't able to handle because of too much work. Now Avalon has overflowed and is sending its work away, only to follow the same path as Sydney HM and Tulla HM.

What a pack of xxseholes management are. No that's too good a term, as xxseholes are useful to expel the crap out of the system. Management are what's expelled from xxseholes.

[boeingsgoing]

Things get a "little" clearer after today's EK tie up. With FRA gone how many 744's does that free up....5-6?? Early retirement most likely. AVV now goes from little to no work very quickly

[Jethro Gibbs]

"Hasta la vista, baby" The end is so close you can smell it in the air at Avalon.
Maybe that should be "Asta la vista baby " been there done that before.:ugh:

[1746]

Jethro, and everyone else at AVV, look after yourselves and those around you!
Good luck and take care!

[Jethro Gibbs]

Con Rafael Industrial head kicker is back as the Human Resources Manager at Forstaff and anyone who has ever dealt with him knows this is not a good sign for the future at Avalon Take your seats tray tables to upright seat belts on and prepare for Turbulence on this final flight to our very last destination . :eek:

[genxfrog]

Con's bark was always bigger than his bite. Anyone with some basic knowledge of our Industry and what we do could run circles around him with little effort.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Trouble is what you can or could do means little to him I just hope you don't think we are going to get 3rd party work because that's never going to happen he is here for one purpose to finish it all up .

[AEROMEDIC]

Correct Jethro.

Con will be there to close the doors after the last person has departed. Lindsay Fox will turn off the lights.

Con's job is just to babysit the troops until it's all over.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Now Qantas Staff are being marched off Site .
There is Good news though the Alaea are running a Photo Competition so Photograph a Sacking and win Big.:ok:


1st Prize - $100 Bunnings Voucher

2nd Prize - $50 Bunnings Voucher

3rd Prize - $30 I-Tunes Voucher

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Yes Jethro. Whilst companies do things to employees that we don't like, unions will still run as they always have. The ALAEA will run an Industry photo competition so we have some nice shots on file for the leaflets we distribute to promote our industry creating jobs for our members.

The AWU and AMWU will also run as normal. They will take union member money to donate to the Labor Party to create jobs for a very select few of their members in Canberra.

[600ft-lb]

I know the fedsec doesn't need a cheer squad to back him up but Jethro, face reality.

The ALAEA do not run Qantas. They're a union. Qantas is the one systematically closing down the aviation infrastructure that was built up over multiple decades and gifted to them.

If you want to play a silly game of blaming everyone else except the elephant in the room, how about this.. Avalon only existed to undercut Sydney Heavy Maintenance and the decades of quality product there. You only have a job because hundreds of Sydney employees either lost their jobs or had to relocate away from friends and family to stay in an industry that doesn't lend well to transference of skills.

What Avalon did to Sydney, the Phillipines are doing to Avalon.

The ALAEA had no say in either of these decisions, its Qantas picking the undercutter over its local staff. Qantas didn't employ their current crop of management to feel nostalgic about local ability or embrace the history of excellence.

My suggestion is if you want to work on jets, move to Brisbane. Spend less time on pprune criticising someone that has nothing to do with CEO level decisions. And finally PPRUNE isn't a dear diary sook fest, get over it - we all know by now how hard done by you are, complaining more does nothing.

[Jethro Gibbs]

I was just pointing out you can submit what will be a historical photo and win a prize so calm down .

[Redpanda]

I think this question has been asked before, but dont remember if it has been answered yet...........


Jethro, are you a member of the ALAEA?

[Arnold E]

Actually Jethro, are you a member of any union??:confused:

[genxfrog]

How quick we've forgotten the days when the ALAEA was in bed with Forstaff and Qantas at Avalon and even had a financial deal on the side. We may forgive Steve, but we will never forget.

[AEROMEDIC]

Gemfrog,

Steve wasn't Fed Sec at that time.

Avalon began as a greenfields site as a result of a collabaration between Qantas, Forstaff and the ALAEA. It WAS originally for overflow work and various checks for other airlines including Air pacific.
It was handy for that and created jobs for over 300 workers from the outset expanding to 1000 after about 5 years.
All engineers began at entry level rates but equal to that rate paid at Qantas. That's not bad for all these guys out of work.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Avalon always was set up to allow them to close Sydney. Shame on the ALAEA of the day. Shame on the FedSec then who became a Manager down there and shame on the airline for lying through their teeth about the whole arrangement. It put 1000 people in Syd out of work despite assurances it wouldn't. No wonder they aren't trusted.

[Jethro Gibbs]

All True At the Start Wally M even sat in on interviews with D Townley now Wally M will be working with Con R to to push the boundaries of the EBA in everyway they can think of to screw people over .

[AEROMEDIC]

So the entire Federal Executive knew that from the start.....is that what you're saying?
All of the executive would have to meet, discuss and approve this arrangement knowing that Sydney would be closed down. A move that would affect a big slice of the membership. You're right ...shame on them. But's not going far enough.
So, if you have the evidence that there was fraudulent behaviour by the Federal executive, have you passed it on to the relevant authorities? Because that's what I think you should do. The members have been badly let down and the persons involved should be behind bars.
..........or , and I'm guessing, there's no paper trail or witness statements and the like. Just hearsay, which is a shame.

As for Wally M, my understanding is that he was voted out by the members after a long stint. Like another fed sec, Don Coleman, he was unemployable as an engineer in the industry and still has to earn a dollar. Industrial Relations skills in demand means jumping the fence and it's mandatory to have a thick skin and no conscience.

[LAME2]

I think your all drawing a long bow to suggest in 1998, the executive at the time understood the future plans of Qantas. I would suggest todays situation would not have been as fully understood by those executive members at the time.

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Lame2

[Bagus]

We allowed Sydney to close,then allowed tullamarine to close,now Avalon turn so what are we doing allowing all these engineers to loose jobs and do nothing.management has a plan to destroy maintenance in Australia .so what is our plan.

[600ft-lb]

How do 'we' stop Qantas doing anything ? It's their train set at the end of the day, as long as they stay legal in what they do we can't force them to do or not do anything.

[Jethro Gibbs]

More news in Geelong Advertiser today 28/9/12 not on there web site as yet it would be good if staff got any news before it gets printed in local newspaper doesn't look like that's ever going to happen though .

[AEROMEDIC]

LAME2,
You are nearly there.

Only Qantas knew what they wanted. Avalon was just a trial to see what what worked and what didn't. The docking, tooling, stores, and manpower contract was always temporary as it was only expected to be for a few months to cope with the existing overflow work. What was a bonus was that it worked out well.
After the numbers were crunched, they found that after setup costs were deducted, and allowing for initial teething problems, it was very, very promising.
Qantas used old "everything" at the start. Equipment and tooling that was written off while they upgraded the same at Sydney. The stuff was still legit..just old.
But everyone had pulled together to make the facility a success to secure the future and that surprised Qantas, particularly when a/c were coming out "on time and under budget". Qantas got 3rd party work for the site and began to get more ambitious, but with all the temporary structure in place, they failed to get FAA approval.
It was then that Qantas realized the true potential of Avalon and began to make plans for the transition of heavy maintenance to Avalon.
What they didn't want to do was absorb all staff into Qantas due to the costs of doing so. It didn't matter they were paying Forstaff a little less than those costs anyway and if they were going to upset the unions along the way...so what! They were very good at doing that anyway, and if things turned pear shaped, they could dump the whole thing for Forstaff to sort out as the staff were THEIR employees.
What Qantas failed to grasp was that the relatively small cost to absorb the Forstaff employees was significantly LESS than they thought and would have avoided costly union unrest, increased output through higher morale and would have had the ability to have Avalon assist Tulla (and vice versa) with manpower transfers as the needs arose.
Like everyone else, Qantas couldn't see 9/11 coming or the GFC so if they had taken on on Forstaff employees it wouldn't have changed things. Qantas were still responsible for employee entitlements whether they were Forstaff employees or not.
So Forstaff expanded instead.

The reality is that in the early days, this site was "a work in progress" and if it closed after a year.... No problems. Everyone knew it was just a temporary situation.
As for the ALAEA, their "consultation fee" would cease and all parties would go home with money in their pockets and consider what to do next.
The executive couldn't know what Qantas didn't know themselves until the potential for Avalon became clearer.
As cunning as they are, Qantas managers only react to a situation...they don't plan ahead.

Avalon became bigger, better and cheaper in the short term and Qantas invested in hangar extensions until something hit the fan.
The rest you know....

[Bagus]

qantas does not one a sucess story,avalon was a sucess but aircraft maintained in china is cheaper than in geelong and who cares about quality anymore ,unless the federal and state government interfered to keep jobs here that is nothing much the union can do.

[unionist1974]

So tell me on whose watch did Tullamarine close ? Tell me who is the leader of the Alaea that allowed Tulla to close?

[ConcernedLAME]

Avalon a success..... I think not!

[Bagus]

Qantas is concentrating by having one base in future but look at Singapore airline,Lufthansa,KLM!and so on ,they have more than one base and investing in more bases,when other airline is becoming smarter QF goes the opposite.

[IAW]

Bagus the reality is LH and SQ are major players in the aircraft maintenance game. They have cheap labor, and many third party customers.

Qantas have more expensive labor, high aussie dollar, and third party customers don't like them because they find defects instead of penning off inspections without even removing access panels.

[Long Bay Mauler]

I was at one of the initial briefings when Avalon was announced,and the comments in the room were that it was being set up to compete and close H245. Guess what happened next? All new tooling was bought and sent direct to Avalon, while Sydney was left to continue working with out dated equipment, and at times, rely on Avalon for equipment support. And of course,Sydney engineers were sent to prop up the whole show because it struggled to do what its masters were asking.It was only when it was able to stand alone that management could shutdown Sydney in 2006. You didn't need to be Einstein to realise that its all a long term plan to phase big jet heavy maintenance out of Australia.The question for Brisbane Heavy is how long before that shuts? 2017? 2020? 2025?

[LAME2]

Qantas used old "everything" at the start. Equipment and tooling that was written off while they upgraded the same at Sydney. The stuff was still legit..just old

All new tooling was bought and sent direct to Avalon

Had to tell what actually happened for those of us who did not work there at the time.

LAME2

[Jethro Gibbs]

Qantas has sought quotes from Air New Zealand and Singapore Airlines to take on heavy maintenance work on 737s and 767s..

So the Question is exactly which work are they getting Quotes for that's missing from this article .

More Avalon jobs at risk as engineers face the sack | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/more-avalon-jobs-at-risk-as-engineers-face-the-sack/story-fndo2dsc-1226483637438)

[borro]

Is there any truth to the rumours about pending redundancies at Avalon.
I was always of the belief QF needed to keep the base operative for the next 3 to 4 years to back up the Bris Vegas.
Can anyone tell me how many B747 QF operate.Does Avalon survive as long as there is a certain number in service?
It certainly is becoming a hard industry to keep a job in.
Cheers

[Jethro Gibbs]

There have already been redundancies forstaff and Qantas the end is near for all .

[borro]

If I understand correctly there have been a few QF staff who have opted for VR at this point but no forced QF CR

[Jethro Gibbs]

That is wrong

[borro]

I should of put a ? at the end of my last post.
What sort of numbers are we talking concerning QF CR and when did this take ?
Jethro please be assured I am not looking to post misinformation.I am hopeful to learn the facts from people who know.

[Jethro Gibbs]

If your looking for a job at Avalon its not going to happen .
As for the facts Qantas and Forstaff have no F^&K*&^ idea they already messed up the numbers months ago even the Forstaff manager was sacked .

[NuckingFuts]

Interesting story in the news today about future international ops out of Avalon. Mr Fox's dream might be coming to fruition. International freight hub feeding his truck company. Not a bad coup if it comes off.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Qantas and Forstaff will be long gone from Avalon by time that ever happens.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I agree with Jethro here. I believe Qantas have already decided that they want Avalon closed. It makes too much sense to keep it open.

[Bagus]

Once qantas leave Avalon and loose this workforce they will not get them back and if other carrier decide to use Avalon as a hub to fly out ,qantas will loose its monopoly here,when there is opportunity to grow qantas tend to go opposite,Once Air Asia,Tiger,and Scoot gets in and new rail link build,u can say goodbye to jetstar and qantas.

[borro]

Ok so if I understand correctly most people who have any real knowledge of the AVA Base believe it will be shut.
Would I be right to assume then that the remainder of B747 work and BNE overflow will end up off shore. Do they wait till the next bird flu scare to announce it.
Jethro. Thanks for your input. Do you believe there will be QF staff redundancies In the next round ? and yes obviously there's no employment prospects down there.
? Will people look to secure employment in BNE Qf base.
I know for a fact they have not been able to push as many staff from Tulla up there as they had hoped.Interestingly the Alaea leadership conveyed at a meeting a few months back that they hoped BNE base would provide some security for those who were prepared move

[AEROMEDIC]

Fedsec,

If you believe the remaining work for Avalon is to be moved offshore, have you taken this up with Qantas?
The facilty at Avalon need not be shut down prematurely if this is the case and I believe that Qantas HAVE to consult the ALAEA before moving any work offshore.
If you have discussed this with Qantas, what were their intentions?

It just seems to me from this thread that people who work at Avalon don't have much info, are concerned about their future and are looking to unions to tell them what is going to happen and when.
All of this creates a situation where engineers are not working at their best and can affect the quality of their output, thereby a less safe environment and a less safe product.

My info at this point was that end of November was the time, but could be extended to late January, however it seems now there is indecision about these dates due to Qantas's changing circumstances. Hmmm...
This is starting to smell like they don't know either, which is not a help to anybody.

[600ft-lb]

The Qantas attitude of late has been less of consultation, more of notification and if you have a problem with it, feel free to take us to court.

It's called Qantas Change management 101.

There was no reason why the A380 reconfig's currently underway in MNL couldn't of been done in AVV.

[Romulus]

There was no reason why the A380 reconfig's currently underway in MNL couldn't of been done in AVV.

Simple question (and probable answer): What was the cost differential?

[tgbgtgb]

There was no reason why the A380 reconfig's currently underway in MNL couldn't of been done in AVV. If the A380 reconfigs were being done over there in avalon it would have meant the other work going offshore.

[Bagus]

Of course MNL is cheap,even doing a heart surgery or dental treatment is cheap overthere,would the government start sending patient over there.

[Arnold E]

would the government start sending patient over there.

Probably, if it wasn't them or their family or friends ( if they have any):eek:

[Bagus]

QF have 12 A380 and 19 B747 aircraft,and all of these will require big checks coming and like 747 still have major chks going on and the A380 by next year will start to undergo major chks,don't u think that all these can be done in Australia and most ideal place in Avalon,where they have the perfect infrastructure and experience workforce,the government instead of building a rail link there can create more jobs if they build a Hangar that can accommodate the 380.I think all the UNION should get together and lobby the government and force Qantas to do heavy maintenance jobs here instead off shoring.Act now before it is too late.

[Romulus]

Of course MNL is cheap,even doing a heart surgery or dental treatment is cheap overthere,would the government start sending patient over there.

Many people are choosing to do just that of their own volition.

Hip replacement waiting lists here in Aus are absurdly long and the surgery will knock you back around $75K all up if you want to pay for it.

On the other hand if you are happy to go to an expat hospital in the Philippines then you're done for about $12.5K.

Or if you want a mouth full of "new" teeth Aus rates will tap you for the best part of $15K or you can head over to Manila and get it done for around $1500.

Medical tourism is booming for exactly that reason. Dubai, Thailand, India, Philippines all have a burgeoning market in women wanting boob jobs, men wanting bigger penises, both sexes wanting whiter brighter teeth and tinier tummies.

So Bagus, the answer is YES, it is clearly an option. Sooner or later I expect Aus health insurers to give all patients this as an option.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Will people look to secure employment in BNE Qf base.
No such thing as secure employment at BNE Qf base I understand anything new will be contract type work with either Chandler Macleod Aviation or ALG not Qantas .
I understand ALG may already have knocked Graeme Sharman of Chandler MacLeod's Aviation Brisbane office out of the game completely although he wont confirm it maybe someone can confirm its ALG . I doubt whoever it is will have the conditions or Pay to make it worthwhile cost wise unless your in live Brisbane alreadty .

Will there be QF staff redundancies In the next round ?
Who knows those who work for Qantas are dreaming if they think they are safe this includes ex Forstaff that are now Qantas getting the Qantas Position is going to mean nothing in the end .

[genxfrog]

Bagus, where have you been hibernating? I believe the Unions have been demanding answers from Qantas and Forstaff in relation to Avalons future. Forstaff say they don't know anything because Qantas won't tell them, and Qantas won't provide any answers because they couldn't give a stuff about Forstaff or workers at Avalon. The Avalon experiment has served it's purpose and now Qantas is aiming at offshoring anything that could be done at Avalon.
As far as Governments acting to force Qantas to do HM in Australia, that's never going to happen. The Shortens, Albanese's, Gillards, and others won't interfere even if they could.
Time for us to obtain gaming venue qualifications or security licences.

[Arnold E]

Time for us to obtain gaming venue qualifications or security licences.

Or........Stand up and be counted.!!

[Jethro Gibbs]

Or........Stand up and be counted.!!


How The unions are stone walled at every turn by a company that takes the simplest issue to FWA or the Courts its Game Over .

[Bagus]

No fight no win,write to ur local member,to the PM,ACTU and make them hear ur voice,stop sending aircraft offshore .ALAEA and all other union should organize nationwide meeting at all levels to make the media and government listen,that aircraft engineering jobs under threat.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Simple question (and probable answer): What was the cost differential?

Good question Romulus. The answer may surprise you. The 747 reconfig contract was put out to tender first. The bidding was between Avalon and Haeko. At formal meetings we were advised by management that the Avalon bid was $200m, Haeko $195m, so bugger all difference in price. Quality would be far superior at Avalon. I say this because in the past Haeko have sent Qantas aircraft back to Avalon with defects that they were incapable of fixing.

We were never told about the price difference for the 380. I suspect this is because the price was so close that they couldn't not put the work at Avalon. These reconfigs did not need a hangar but to put the lies into perspective, they continually fabricate figures regarding the cost to carry out 380 maintenance. eg, they said a hangar would be at least $120m. I got a quote for the same hangar, $16m or 30 fully tooled and ready to use.

Qantas lie. In case you didn't catch that - Qantas lie.

If the A380 reconfigs were being done over there in avalon it would have meant the other work going offshore.

No it wouldn't. They just laid off 100 or so people at Avalon. This occured around the same time that the 380 work started in Manilla. It was a perfect fit to do in Australia.

I think all the UNION should get together and lobby the government and force Qantas to do heavy maintenance jobs here instead off shoring.Act now before it is too late.

Firstly, some unions are better connected to Government than we are, I would love thir support to lobby the Government. I haven't got their support. Our union has been in the office of every relevent MP in Cbr to lobby for just this. I have taken them the hangar quotes and told them the whole story. They couldn't give a stuff. They all tell me that they don't believe Qantas management, none of them have the balls to do anything about it.

It makes me sick to see turncoats like Combet and Shorten do anything Qantas want them to do. I will be voicing my outrage at this p!ss poor outfit come next election time. Thinking of moving to SA so I can vote for Nick Z.

[gobbledock]

It makes me sick to see turncoats like Combet and Shorten do anything Qantas want them to do. I will be voicing my outrage at this p!ss poor outfit come next election time. Agreed. Combat and Short-one make my stomach turn. They are far from what Labor used to stand for. My Grandfather was a steel worker, bridge builder and a bloody good fighter as well as staunch Labor supporter however it is best that he rest in peace for if he was around in the past 15 years he would be mortified. These so called Union Labor Minister's are nothing more than whipped footstools. Pathetic.

Thinking of moving to SA so I can vote for Nick Z.
Now you're talking. The good Senator is building up quite a following for himself, namely because he is one of only a handful of Politicians who have retained their testicles, and the Senator seems to have a giant set. I hope he runs for PM, he would surely anihilate the Carbon Queen and the Slugger?

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Fed Sec and GD,

This book is worth a read.

Peter Oborne - The triumph of the political class

[Graeme Sharman]

I understand there is much to still be discussed, decided and announced in regards to Qantas maintenance in QLD. And it is the nature of those of us in the aviation industry to want answers as soon as possible. But I would like to point out that just because answers arent available when you want it, doesnt mean that the outcome is the worst case scenario.
Chandler Macleod Aviation in Queensland was established in May this year (when I came onboard), and is growing from strength to strength. Good things take time.

[Arnold E]

Chandler Macleod Aviation in Queensland
Yeah, well they are well known, who the hell are they?:confused:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Yeah, well they are well known, who the hell are they?


FORSTAFF By another name one in the same :ok:

[Arnold E]

How The unions are stone walled at every turn by a company that takes the simplest issue to FWA or the Courts its Game Over .

Jethro, google Ark Tribe and tell me how you cant win, you guys keep tell everybody what you cant do, how about thinking what you can do.

Bagus has at least not been whiging about what he cant do.

[Bagus]

> Home > Campaigns
Qantas Engineers' Alliance
Together, we are committed to working for a strong, sustainable future for our industry.

We are calling for:

Genuine engagement on fleet and maintenance planning
A commitment to maintaining aircraft in Australia
On-going skills training and quality jobs
Infrastructure investment for a strong Australian engineering capability
A plan to take advantage of maintenance opportunities in the Asia-Pacific
We have launched a new website.* Check it out.

SO WHAT HAPPEN TO THIS ALLIANCE,looks like they are asleep now

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I just wanted to point out that the ALAEA has nothing to do with this little alliance.

[AEROMEDIC]

So, what answers are you getting and what answers are you giving?

What do you see for the future?
(no pun intended about your surname)

I have to say once again that when it comes to industrial relations, communication and genuine engagement with your staff is everything,

[genxfrog]

There is that "other" Alliance that includes a Union who's National Secretary is also the National Vice President of the ALP. I can smell a pre-selection being locked in on the back of his media exposure in recent times. That's one of the problem with Unions these days. Anyone who claims to be a Trade Unionist whilst being a member of the ALP at the same time is a hypocrite and a liar.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Chandler Macleod Aviation in Queensland was established in May this year and is growing from strength to strength.


Doing What Exactly has anyone seen anything apart from a Large Resume collection .

[qf 1]

Qantas Engineers' Alliance,set up by the same dog that allowed Sydney HM to be shut down because he was going to increase his membership numbers at Avalon,didn't give a rats about the Sydney families that had been paying membership for yrs

[Jethro Gibbs]

October 19, 201212:00AM The Australian
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-announcement-is-another-nail-in-the-avalon-facilitys-coffin/story-e6frg95x-1226498815490)

[Jethro Gibbs]

@StevePurvinas Any journo want an exclusive story on Qantas planes flying around with parts missing? pm me if you don't have Chairman's Lounge membership.

So why not just cut the Journos out of the picture and put the story out there the Journos seem to be very selective in reporting Avalon is a good example the public read the local paper and think there are jobs there by the thousand which we know is far from the truth.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

So why not just cut the Journos out of the picture and put the story out there the Journos seem to be very selective in reporting Avalon is a good example the public read the local paper and think there are jobs there by the thousand which we know is far from the truth

I could put the full story here or on facebook but the audience would be very limited. This one is building every day a new report comes in, pretty hard to find a journo though who is not in Qantas club.

[qf 1]

how about you let CASA know

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

how about you let CASA know

Lol. That would be like going straight to Qantas with the problem.

[Jethro Gibbs]

How about you let CASA know
Fed Sec is right what's the point They have a surprise inspection at Avalon and Qantas know about days before hand so they can have a big clean up and get a catered Lunch organised they are a joke.

[tgbgtgb]

The Plane Talking Blog could be a good place to build some steam?

[Bagus]

saw the video on ALAEA site abot tulla heavy maintenance,hopefully ALAN JOYCE can see the difference between aircraft maintenance and car maintenance.

[AEROMEDIC]

Jethro,

This advance notice has been standard practice for decades.

To be fair, it gives the operator a chance to restore to compliance those things overlooked in internal audits.
If no notice is given, then there is a mountain of minor non conformances like a clean up in a workshop, tooling not segregated, spillover in compartments of screws, etc. that get picked up and a mountain of paperwork generated.
I KNOW that these things should not have to occur but they do, and use up time and resources better allocated to more important issues.

Surveys without notice usually mean that there is something major that is suspected to exist and usually instigated from a confidential report, so CASA EXPECT to find it.

If Qantas gets advance info on a SURPRISE visit, then CASA would become aware of that fact during the visit. If so, then the real issue is who tipped Qantas off and what does CASA do about it?

So was this really a surprise visit, or a planned visit due to the wind down of Avalon.

I think that it was the latter, as it might be construed that with the overhang of job losses may interfere with the flow of compliance with good practice.
(unless there's other info on this)

[Jethro Gibbs]

Well at least there is ample time to Pre Order the catered lunch imagine the drama if there was a problem with the Lunch we never hear the end of it .:ok:

[AEROMEDIC]

You betcha.....!

[Jethro Gibbs]

The formal FWA hearing dealing with LOFO at Avalon was scheduled in FWA Melbourne 8 October 2012.

So whats Happened its 31/10/12 and soon more may be going .

[genxfrog]

Jethro, maybe check the FWA website and see if there's anything there about what happened? Not sure it really matters anymore as the writing is on the wall for all to go soon anyway. :sad:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It's in FWA on Friday.

[boeingsgoing]

Does anyone know the reason for the FWA hearing. Are they wanting to go outside the EBA??

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Well I know. I am running the case. In summary. They had compulsory redundancies. The have a last on first off rule. They also have a rule that says after retrenchments, they must train up to cover any lost skills.

They excluded some people from the last on first off list because they had for example 737 licences (so they could keep some of their mates who they gave this course to relatively recently). They have no right in the EBA to pick and choose people to exclude from the last on first off list because they have a particular licence or skill. To the contrary, they specifically have a rule that says they must train to cover any lost skills.

Some people lost their jobs unfairly because of this breach.

[borro]

Fed Sec
What kind of outcome are you hoping to obtain from FWA?
Would some of the individuals affected be looking for reinstatement or possibly much deserved compensation?
I look forward to seeing some accountability being enforced on this bunch. A comprehensive win might actually cause some management snouts to lift from the Forstaff/Qantas trough for the briefest of moments.
Good luck with the hearing.

[AEROMEDIC]

Fed sec,

I wish you luck in this case. I really do.

It's unfair that people should lose their jobs because a company chooses to protect others in a non compliant LOFO process.

However, Fair Work Australia has demonstrated already that they are ready to rule against good sense as they have done in the matter of PR525218 re pre flight safety checks.

If they see that the "greater good" is served by ruling in favour of the company..they will.

They let the ALAEA (and indeed the travelling public) down very badly considering the evidence and failed to take in account the safety concerns involving passengers.

So I think it's hard to see them ruling fairly in this matter.

Good luck anyway.

P.S. The flight safety check orders have expired. Will you take this matter to the Senate Inquiry for CASA to answer ??

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

What kind of outcome are you hoping to obtain from FWA?


I never expect a favourable outcome from FWA, ever. Regardless of that I think it important that we try. I have run a case before and it led to an unexpected success. I live in hope.


Would some of the individuals affected be looking for reinstatement or possibly much deserved compensation?



Reinstatement. It is the outcome that would have occurred should the breach not have taken place.

P.S. The flight safety check orders have expired. Will you take this matter to the Senate Inquiry for CASA to answer ??

It could go to Senate estimates for CASA to answer. At this stage however we are working with CASA due to the massive spike in errors and breaches by Qantas since it decided not to inspect its planes properly. The case you mention although the usual FWA outcome was attained had a Qantas manager talk about things undr oath that are now being investigated so a day in FWA getting kicked around can always be of some benefit.

[Bagus]

Public are beginning to ask is Qantas a safe airline,I use to promote to friends and relative to fly Qantas as we use to have the best maintenance system but now I told them if u can get a cheaper fare fly with that carrier.Cutting down on maintenance staff and preventing engineers from doing their jobs is disastrous.ALAEA is only trying to make the airline safe.

[Jethro Gibbs]

2/11/12 Commissioner Gregory of Fair Work Australia has reserved his decision and members will be advised as soon as the decision is handed down.

Wonder if there will be a decision before everyone is gone .

[boeingsgoing]

Big announcement today, no details but AVV likely involved
...... Watch this space

[boeingsgoing]

263 gone AVV. 200 in SYD. Training in MEL GONE.

[NuckingFuts]

What a disgrace.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Avalon from today Any urgency to get work Done None at all , Sick Leave Up way Up , Any Union or Association resignation letters being prepared to cut costs any Trust in what management says Gone .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

FYI guys I drove down today and sought permission to come in and address members. Access denied.

Was a bit furious when I found out later that the AWU were openly welcome on the site.

[genxfrog]

Steve, you should have told them you were in a relationship with a Female Qantas Media Executive.......that would have given you an entourage bigger than Charles and Camilla. Forstaff and Qantas are both morally bankrupt and thick as thieves.

[qf 1]

i remember Shorten jumping on TV when Sydney heavy was shut down saying its not all bad Victoria have picked up the work,to me the AWU are more so morally bankrupt than QANTAS even come close too.It was all about the numbers for Shorten,more members to be gained than in Sydney so he was happy to see Sydney shut down.

[QF94]

@qf1,

The name Shorten says it all. He's a worm and only looks out for himself. Look what he helped Gillard do to Rudd, and what was his reward? Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, and Minister for Financial Services and Superannuation.

Bill Shorten only looks out for Bill Shorten. That sums up the federal Labor party and the uppe management of QANTAS.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Any way the numbers are out now most areas going to half they had these yesterday what liars .

[boeingsgoing]

What's the figures?? Be interesting to see.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Another thing is there are currently forstaff trades from Avalon in Brisbane supporting them due to not enough staff now they want to put people off WTF

[Bagus]

As long as these minister sits in the Qantas premium lounge ,they will do as what the airlines want,same goes to CASA.

[AEROMEDIC]

A very sad day for Avalon.

I hope you guys there can find something else when the time comes.

I hope and pray that there is not a resulting catastrophic event from this dumb policy on engineering maintenance that Qantas has taken up. Moreover, I hope and pray that neither myself or my family are not on board when it occurs.

It seems that nothing will happen before Christmas, so I hope there is SOME comfort in that.

[Dunnocks]

Need to watch out for the ole double negative, Medic, ole pal...

[AEROMEDIC]

Lucky it wasn't a triple......