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View Full Version : QF 777's here they come ... At last.


Southside747
31st Aug 2012, 11:56
The EK deal has QF getting some of their triple slots in exchange for LHR slots currently leased to other airlines.

Let's just say a mob was on board today coming out to quote on simulator and training facilities for QF ASAP.

7 in quick succession.

Who would have believed common sense could overcome the egos who have for years preached about what a useless aircraft it really is.

SixDemonBag
31st Aug 2012, 12:13
should this be in Jet Blast?

Southside747
31st Aug 2012, 12:50
Group of 4 on board today who were all part of a group who said they were coming out for this reason. They also seemed to know a lot. Strange that they told me the contents of the news articles and more before they were even published.

Seems the LHR slots for EK are invaluable. Enough to throw a half dozen triplers (of their 100 still on order) for a tidy premium.

Tie up will not be good for QF international though. Probably the end of the 400. Which would make sense given the refurbishment (what else would you expect from the worlds highest paid airline management).

Three Wire
31st Aug 2012, 14:53
We don't have spare sim time and we don't have spare airframes.

Eastwest Loco
31st Aug 2012, 14:59
Triple 7s - great!

A lovely 2 holer for the punters and the crews.

The big qestion is where will they operate?

The network is self immolating by the week.

If something isn't done soon to arrest the rot, the great white rat will become the lesser white mouse and the Flying Kangaroo will become the altitude challenged quokka.

What on earth has gone wrong?

I know there a thousand answers to that but it is a thousand times beyond quel domage.

EWL

SOPS
31st Aug 2012, 15:23
Wow!!!! The rumours are flying thick and fast now!!!!!

Barry Mundy
31st Aug 2012, 20:55
Dont get too excited.There is nowhere for Q to fly the triplers given their reduction in routes. 777 to Jstar preparing for the 787 and A330's back to Q early for domestic ops.

Bazzamundi
31st Aug 2012, 21:45
Pacific. 744's all but 6 gone by next year. 6 triplers taken in the next 12 months.

EK need every aircraft they can get, but the LHR slots are worth gold to them hence their ability to allow QF to have some of their production slots over the coming 12 months.

Perth and Adelaide international gone. Westbound international flying also gone. One 380 per day to LHR through SIN, other LHR service via DXB. Other leased LHR slots gifted to EK.

Not the greatest of news for QF careers however. For some a triple endorsement will mean opportunity to move on to greener pastures.

Management101
31st Aug 2012, 21:57
It appears to be based on significant substance.

Seems there was a bit of urgent dialogue late yesterday between the Australian and NZ regulators and the red rat. Seems like it will happen quick.

Unfortunately the plan is Jetconnect. NZ based and registered. 744's to be phased out rapidly with just a few remaining.

Goodbye Europe. HK, pacific to become the bread and butter, Jetstar to take over Asia. Token 380 to LHR, the rest of the network to be cut significantly.

IsDon
31st Aug 2012, 22:01
Rumour also has it that Simon Hickey has always been a fan of the 777. If this is true, he's now the man that could make the decision on them.

It has always made sense. I just couldn't see AJ admitting he's wrong. As recently at the last AGM he stated implicitly that the 777 was the wrong aircraft for QF, and 787 was the game changer. Well now they've abandoned the game changer, maybe the 777 is being looked at again. Personally I doubt it though. Too many egos involved.

grrowler
31st Aug 2012, 22:43
He he he those emiratis with all their money are giving us some 777's, now we can finally compete against those pesky middle eastern airlines and use those LHR slots we've got....oh wait...

C441
1st Sep 2012, 00:35
Probably all a tactical ploy so that the Pilots who would have been so stressed 12 months ago that the airline had to be grounded, can now relax for 5 days until the real news is released on the 5th. .....don't have to ground the airline that way!:rolleyes:

Variable Incidence
1st Sep 2012, 00:47
Ha ha ha ha.......ha. Oh my sides hurt. What are u all smoking?!!!

ButFli
1st Sep 2012, 01:15
I heard something slightly different about QF getting 777s (from the Townsville refueler and another source).

EK gift their next however-many 77W delivery slots to QF. Boeing gives QF a good price on these to keep them on-side after the 787 debacle.

In return, QF lets EK take over all routes west of DXB (except JHB) which become codeshares as part of a wider-ranging codeshare agreement. QF may or may not take over some of the Australia-DXB flying.

QF uses the 77Ws to replace 744s to LAX and Asia and open up a few new routes in Asia. QF keeps enough 744ERs to do SCL, JHB and DFW and the rest. No idea what happens to the A380s that are freed up.

As I say, that's just what I heard.

dr dre
1st Sep 2012, 01:58
QF uses the 77Ws to replace 744s to LAX and Asia and open up a few new routes in Asia. QF keeps enough 744ERs to do SCL, JHB and DFW and the rest. No idea what happens to the A380s that are freed up.

So that mean QF would have 12 A380's, 9 B744's, 6-10?? 777's? And then a handfull of A330's still doing asian routes. 4 types between about 35 frames?

K9P
1st Sep 2012, 03:32
Looks like those in Avalon on death row have just had their date of execution brought forward.

ButFli
1st Sep 2012, 03:47
So that mean QF would have 12 A380's, 9 B744's, 6-10?? 777's? And then a handfull of A330's still doing asian routes. 4 types between about 35 frames?

That's not much different to what they have now or what would have happened with 787s. It isn't ideal but it won't be fatal.

Also note that there are domestic A330s (and more coming from Jetstar) that will boost fleet numbers of that type.

Di_Vosh
1st Sep 2012, 03:56
QF keeps enough 744ERs to do SCL, JHB and DFW and the rest.

If this rumour has legs, surely the triplers would be used on DFW?

DIVOSH!

clear to land
1st Sep 2012, 05:49
Can't imagine why anyone would want to fly on QF over EK to DXB. Even if they are outfitted as per EK-ie a real IFE, the cabin service would cripple the operation.

crewmeal
1st Sep 2012, 05:56
Given these rumours become fact, looks like Emirates will be Australia's national Airline. I can see a kangaroo wearing a hijab on the tails of these 777's!

Seriously it seems that the ME carriers will dominate the UK - OZ routes. BA's token flights do nothing to for the competition. Far East carriers don't seem to be expanding in the way everyone thought.

Management101
1st Sep 2012, 06:44
Correction to my post on the previous page. The dialogue mentioned to me involved another issue which will become public in time involving the NZ and Aus regulators.

But there are some interesting asides re code sharing. Does EK operate the pacific soon? Been their ambition for a while.

Can EK operate the 777 cheaper on the pacific code shared with Qantas. Some interesting mumblings abound.

Watch this space.

Ollie Onion
1st Sep 2012, 07:17
Good lord, if QF does acquire 777's as part of the Emirates deal and then gives them to Jetstar that will truely be the final nail in the coffin for QF International.

Keg
1st Sep 2012, 07:19
Emirates to operate red tailed 777s on flights from Australia to DXB and into Europe?

virgindriver
1st Sep 2012, 07:26
Umm. Why even bother flying Qantas and why not go straight to Emirates?

SOPS
1st Sep 2012, 07:30
Keg..I dont follow this trail of thought. Why would EK operate red tails to DXB and then throught to Europe, when the can and are happily doing it all by themselves? I just dont see what possibly could be in it for EK

I see Virgin Driver has just beaten me to it....my thoughts exactly.

Keg
1st Sep 2012, 08:35
I'm just throwing out the most outlandish things I can think of because this management do some really strange stuff. If QF want to maintain a 'presence' in Europe perhaps EK operated red tail 777s is the way to do it. No training costs for QF, EK's cost base is supposedly lower than ours (according to Joyce anyway), etc.

SOPS
1st Sep 2012, 09:24
Actually OnceBitten I could not agree with you more:ok:

ButFli
1st Sep 2012, 09:37
If this rumour has legs, surely the triplers would be used on DFW?Hey, I'm just repeating what I heard.

hotnhigh
1st Sep 2012, 09:44
Hmmm, and how does this make qf any better?
I suppose it will accelerate the loss of passengers to the rivals.
QF international dies, and then the rot will set in at domestic.
Awesome plan Ace.

Ramboflyer 1
1st Sep 2012, 11:04
I honestly believe EK will fly Red tails all over Europe as they exhaust their rights into other countries a new entity ( Qantas) will be able to pick up a very large number of new destinations.
The cost base of EK is probably about 1/3 of qantas if not less.
Don't expect to fly them unless a new inferior contract comes along.

AEROMEDIC
1st Sep 2012, 12:46
Looks like those in Avalon on death row have just had their date of execution brought forward.

Is Brisbane next to close...??

:eek:

donpizmeov
1st Sep 2012, 13:02
Rambo,
JQ pilots can fly them MFF style with the 787.

To think EK are going to slow down their bid for world domination for 2 slots into LHR is one very far stretch of the imagination. Particularly since the wing fix on the 40 380s needing them is going to take a long time, I don't see any aircraft deliveries being deferred. There would be a greater chance of retirements being delayed. There are 5 or 6 classic 777s leaving the fleet next year, perhaps QF wants these? 1996 models, only ever driven to church each Sunday by a little old lady.... honest.

The Don

Ramboflyer 1
2nd Sep 2012, 01:29
The thing is Emirates wants more daily services to Europe but cannot get them , Rome is a good example. A red taiI can most likely get the rights or already has them.
Its the same reason etihad and emirates will never merge as separate entities they can fly to more destinations.
With qf under its belt, instead of 3 flights a day from mel dxb lon there can be almost an unlimited amount say 6 a day , a flight to london or Europe every 2 hours. It doesnt matter what color the aircraft is.
Of course as emirates gained more rights into Australia in the future it would probably be at the expense of Qf.

Iver
2nd Sep 2012, 04:17
Who will actually fly the 777s - EK or QF pilots? Very confusing...:confused::confused::}

goodonyamate
2nd Sep 2012, 04:45
Unfortunately the plan is Jetconnect. NZ based and registered.

I dont think so..........

The rumour doing the rounds at the moment is that Jitconnict is going to be dismantled altogether. Crew to Jetstar NZ, airframes back to mainline, as they are needed in Oz.:D

packrat
2nd Sep 2012, 06:23
Iver- Ek has said they are going to be basing EK crews in Oz to fly the 777s.
Part of the deal will be giving EK some QF slots into LAX.
Sounds stupid doesnt it?
So was grounding the airline.
These people have turned stupid into an art form

Waterboy128
2nd Sep 2012, 07:40
Yeah I bet they will wind up Jetconnect. The only part of Qantas international that makes money to give back the airframes to mainline to charge twice the price to fly them. If Jetconnect goes anywhere the Qantas longhaul pilots should put out the resume also.

Also can't see Jetconnect flying 777's at the moment. The company doesn't have the structure or experience within to pull off something that large.

Captain Gidday
2nd Sep 2012, 12:25
The rumour doing the rounds at the moment is that Jitconnict is going to be dismantled altogether.

In a logical word, with EK and QF codesharing, part of the deal would be for EK to take their capacity dumping superliners off the Tasman and do their Aust- NZ flights as QF codeshares. They'd probably also want codeshare flights into and out of Wellington on QF branded hulls.

This would seem to indicate a bigger role for Jitconnect, not closure.

As for EK flying Aust-USA. I don't think so. Uncle Sam would have a protectionist fit! The yanks do have some say in the matter. And anyway, it is not the great little earner it used to be.

But all the above is in a logical world. And we sure don't live in that anymore.

Mstr Caution
2nd Sep 2012, 14:55
I think the opposite will happen.

EK in their pursuit for global dominance will take over the Tasman runs on behalf on the QF group.

Why would EK want to withdraw their brand from NZ?

Rob Gurney in FWA indicated Jetconnect was loosing money, even with a cost base lower the QF.

AJ has declared he's turning QF international around. He'll be doing any and everything possible to stem any losses.

EK is in the dominant position, why would they want to hand over the TAsman to the QF group?

What EK want is the revenue & network reach. They'll continue to operate the Tasman, code share it with QF & have increased revenue & the ability to skim coin from the bulging purse which is the QF Frequent Flyer program.

I can't see any logic why Emirates would have any desire to reduce services.

The by product of EK taking over the Tasman, would free up 737's for where the bucks are made in QF domestic.

clear to land
2nd Sep 2012, 15:59
EK's aim is to be a 'round the world' airline like Pan Am used to be. They will do nothing that is not to the direct and immediate benefit of EK (which is why I am very happy to be with them). There is only one rather large body of water which we don't yet span. EK has a commercial department second to none, and a management team that makes QF look like kindergarten rejects. The future is clear if you don't have rose coloured glasses on.

golfjet744
2nd Sep 2012, 20:37
The future is clear if you don't have rose coloured glasses on.

Must be good to have such clear vision of the world wide aviation market.

1 year ago the future was also very clear to the jetstar mob. Turns out they had rose colored glasses on.

Every management or business model has their time in the sun. If you think that their time in the sun will last forever, then you might just want to check that you aren't the one sporting the latest fashion in rose colored glasses.

golfjet744
2nd Sep 2012, 20:46
EK's aim is to be a 'round the world' airline like Pan Am used to be.

Sorry to quote you again but I love this first sentence. It captures the beautiful tinge of rose coloring your vision.

I bet Pan Am thought they had this whole aviation thing worked out.

If you want to go for cliches how about "the only constant in aviation is change." ;)

trimotor
2nd Sep 2012, 21:29
It may sound a little rose-tinted, but it is nevertheless correct. EK will make it it's business to screw QF the way QF has tried to d to everyone else for the last 40+ years of my memory.

QF won't get their ands on cast-off EK 777's-despite their age and EK's desire to get rid of them, they are too valuable. QF has, and will continue to ignore the 777 as the death of the 747. Perhaps the ridiculous gummint protectionism of QF, and successive generations of QF management convincing themselves of the rightness of their feeble opinions will actually be QF' obituary.

TM

maggot
2nd Sep 2012, 21:45
EK's aim is to be a 'round the world' airline like Pan Am used to be. They will do nothing that is not to the direct and immediate benefit of EK (which is why I am very happy to be with them). There is only one rather large body of water which we don't yet span. EK has a commercial department second to none, and a management team that makes QF look like kindergarten rejects. The future is clear if you don't have rose coloured glasses on.


What make you think QF needs EK for this?

:rolleyes: ;)

on the whole pacific thing, are the 'lax slots' folks are on about actually QFs to give...........

golfjet744
2nd Sep 2012, 22:25
It may sound a little rose-tinted, but it is nevertheless correct. EK will make it it's business to screw QF the way QF has tried to d to everyone else for the last 40+ years of my memory.

TM

It's called business. It's about implementing strategies to achieve goals. Ek will do what's right for ek. Qf will do what's right for Qf. They might find common ground and strike a business relationship.

Ek would be stupid not to utilise Qfs current situation to strike a favorable business deal.

sunnySA
2nd Sep 2012, 23:57
EK's aim is to be a 'round the world' airline

A380 DXB-SYD-LAX-DXB-LAX-SYD-DXB

Captain Gidday
3rd Sep 2012, 00:03
They will do nothing that is not to the direct and immediate benefit of EK (which is why I am very happy to be with them). There is only one rather large body of water which we don't yet span. EK has a commercial department second to none, and a management team that makes QF look like kindergarten rejects. The future is clear if you don't have rose coloured glasses on.

Few Australians seem to fully realise this, but every Kiwi does; NZ and Australia have a 'common market' treaty called CER [Closer Economic Relations]. The CER works in exactly the same way as the agreement between the USA, Canada and Mexico [on which it is based]. So Emirates flying SYD-AKL and SYD-CHC with traffic rights is exactly the same as if they suddenly popped up with traffic rights between New York and Toronto and Los Angeles and Vancouver. How likely would that be to happen? Not very. Yet they busted into the trans-Tasman market.

At the time this happened they also achieved vastly expanded traffic rights west out of Australia to Dubai. The 'cover story' was that it would be good for inbound tourism to Australia to have some competition to those unpopular price gouging folks at Qantas. They'd inundate Australia with tourists from all points [Yeah, right!]

To back up their 'tourism friendly' credentials, Emirates built and still operate an 'eco friendly' resort out in a remote place called the Wolgan Valley, NSW. How charging at least $1250 per night to stay there benefits the Australian tourism industry is still not clear, at least to me. About the only person it ever benefited was the farmer who sold his marginal, unproductive property, overrun with kangaroos, to Emirates. And I bet he sold out cheaply, not realising who was buying.

As I said that was the cover story. But in a logical world, you'd have to think there was something else going on here. Now either Australian politicians and public servants are incredibly naive and stupid [entirely possible] to give away traffic rights even within their own CER to foreign interests who provide nothing of substance back in return, or you'd have to at least entertain the possibility that Emirate's "second to none commercial department" includes a man with a suitcase padlocked to his wrist who travels to Australia. A lot.

A diligent Police Force, who are independent from the political structure just so they can investigate such things without compromise, would no doubt carry out enquiries, should they ever have suspicions, in exactly the same way they'd use to apprehend bank robbers. They'd look around to see who was a likely suspect and who has been living beyond their means since the act was perpetrated. Follow The Money is nearly always a useful line of investigation. The independent police and the judiciary are there to protect us from such events, should they ever occur. At least in a logical world. Unfortunately we don't seem to live in a logical world any more. [Although the AWB was recently investigated regarding their activities while selling wheat into the Middle East, so perhaps the system might still work, after all].

A half empty Emirates A380 flew out of Sydney on the short sector to Auckland this morning, as it does every morning. How much money does that service lose every day? Does an under-utilised, gob-smackingly expensive 'eco-friendly' resort in the Wolgan Valley offset, in any way, the damage done to Australian and NZ jobs, the environment and economic prosperity wrought by the stupidity of allowing Emirates world domination, however achieved?

dragon man
3rd Sep 2012, 00:44
Are Captain Gidday finally someone finally has got it 110% correct. The rights the middle eastern carriers have to Australia were all based upon we will bring you 100,000s of tourists. Yea sure. The $aus is so strong that the traffic is all Aussies outbound. Only when 1000s more of Australian jobs are lost will the politicians realise that they were sold a crock. The Canadians have seen what Emirates have done here and will only allow them token services so they wont destroy Air Canada.:D

Yousef Breckenheimer
3rd Sep 2012, 01:27
Jetconnect will not be getting wound up. Money on expansion.

maui
3rd Sep 2012, 02:40
Capt Gidday

How much freight did it have hidden under the floor? If it was full, they would be turning a profit on that run without pax upstairs. Remember the 300 series 777's have more under floor cubes than a 744.

Too often we fail to see the whole picture.

I have no idea, but things are not necessarily as we see them.

Having said that, I believe Trans Tasman should be left to Antipodeans.

Maui

plainmaker
3rd Sep 2012, 03:09
Quoting RamboFlyer 1 I honestly believe EK will fly Red tails all over Europe as they exhaust their rights into other countries a new entity ( Qantas) will be able to pick up a very large number of new destinations.
The cost base of EK is probably about 1/3 of qantas if not less.

On what basis do you tink EK's cost is 1/3rd that of QF. Last time I looked, they were paying the same Airways charges, much the same for fuel (Emirates does not have a hedging policy if I recall), and Boeing and Airbus are not 'gifting' airframes to them.

If you are saying that EK has a lower management cost, I would believe that, BUT to claim a cost base which includes ALL the costs associated with operation (fixed and variable), sure they have an advantage. They are smarter (read more effective) in getting every last hour of productivity from their employees - but that only amounts to about 7% of the total operating cost. If they are have an efficiency double that of QF, we are still talking a small overall increase in direct costs, not the 33% you claim.

Plainmaker

1a sound asleep
3rd Sep 2012, 03:57
So when does the QF DXB base get set up? Maybe AJ could get a nice pad there and base himself in Dubai

600ft-lb
3rd Sep 2012, 04:40
Emirates - A friend of Australia | Ogilvy Public Relations Australia (http://www.ogilvypr.com.au/case-studies/emirates-a-friend-of-australia/)
Challenge To double Emirates’ cap of 49 flights a week to Australia over 7 years via a multifaceted strategy negotiating directly with the federal government, influencing their state ministerial counterparts and all political stakeholders on the positive outcomes this deal would deliver to Australia’s tourism exports sector. To complement the government relations strategy, P&P developed a 360° PA campaign which included strategic media management which shaped broader reporting on aviation policy, leveraging existing partnerships and developing events which highlighted EK commitment and articulated its Australian story.
Insight
Our research indicated the need to better articulate Emirates contribution to Australia’s tourism and trade sector, challenge misconceptions, highlight its ongoing investment and the consumer benefits delivered through continued growth.
Creative idea
“Emirates – a Friend of Australia” strategy utilised third party support (e.g. airport CEO’s, influential media, tourism ministers) to assist convincing the Government to support Emirates request for additional services.
Campaign
Our primary Government target was the Federal Minister for Transport and Regional Services but also key Cabinet Ministers, senior bureaucrats and public servants. We organised media briefings, visits by senior Emirates executives, commissioned significant research and tailored messages to over 100 key stakeholders.
Outcome
In March 2007, a new agreement allowed Emirates to grow its flights to Australia’s gateways over four years by 71% – a major win for the airline and Australian tourism and trade sectors.

Visual Landing
3rd Sep 2012, 06:28
It will be red tailed 777's flown by Jetstar pilots. The Townsville refueller told me so.

framer
3rd Sep 2012, 06:28
Does anyone know what that parking fee actually is? I've heard this said many times but I wonder if it is just an urban myth for want of a better phrase.
Framer

The The
3rd Sep 2012, 06:32
Capt Gidday- As well as freight, the bit you didn't account for was the cost of keeping an A380 parked at Sydney all day from 6am til 2115. Much cheaper for EK to send it across the pond.

$154 per hour to park an A380 at Sydney. An A380 would burn more than that just on the all the taxiing for a return across the pond.

woftam
3rd Sep 2012, 06:57
[QUOTE]$154 per hour to park an A380 at Sydney. An A380 would burn more than that just on the all the taxiing for a return across the pond./QUOTE]

That's less than it costs to park your car at the airport. :rolleyes:

Captain Gidday
3rd Sep 2012, 06:59
Excellent post about O&M , 600ft-lb. Great find.

:ok::D:ok::D

ejectx3
3rd Sep 2012, 07:36
About $50 per 24 hours

Ngineer
3rd Sep 2012, 22:18
Emirates B777's operated by Emirates staff flying QF routes.

Thats all folks.........but keep the dream alive!:}

Mstr Caution
3rd Sep 2012, 23:31
Hand over of international out of ADL & PER for starters is the rumour.

Taildragger67
4th Sep 2012, 04:38
What, so no-one in Perth or Adelaide wants to travel to Asia? Or no-one in Asia wants to travel to those places (other than on their own home carriers)?

I would find it difficult to believe that everyone on the 2 x A330s daily between PER & SIN are all heading to / from Europe via SIN.

Mstr Caution
4th Sep 2012, 04:55
Heard it from an engineer, who said it allows the A330's to return to Domestic.

The plan was to have the A330's a domestic fleet being replaced by the 787 internationally.

Only problem is AJ cancelled the 787's so he can afford the A320 neos on order for Jetstar.

QF94
4th Sep 2012, 14:39
Heard it from an engineer, who said it allows the A330's to return to Domestic.

The plan was to have the A330's a domestic fleet being replaced by the 787 internationally.

Only problem is AJ cancelled the 787's so he can afford the A320 neos on order for Jetstar.

787's only cancelled for QANTAS. J* still getting 15 787's next year, returning the flogged J* A330's back to QANTAS domestic.

Ollie Onion
4th Sep 2012, 19:51
QF94,

Yes the 787-800's are going to Jetstar from next year, the problem being that it is widely known around head office now that these 787's are not fit for the expansion plans. Due to 'performance' issues several of the planned 'expansion' routes are not possible on the 787 in the configuration needed for low cost long haul.

Last time I spoke to someone about this the plan was to retain some A330's until the 787-900's started arriving and then to swap out the remaining A330's and some 787-800's with some of the new 900's. Now of course the 900's are cancelled / delayed meaning all the expansion plans into southern europe and the west coast of the USA are stuffed again........ unless of course a few 777's come the way of Jetstar as part of a common fleet with the 787. Then Jetstar could give all those clapped out A330's back to Qantas.

Offchocks
4th Sep 2012, 20:46
"Then Jetstar could give all those clapped out A330's back to Qantas."

They are not old aircraft so why are they clapped out?

denabol
4th Sep 2012, 20:59
Reading the news this morning it seems to me that there is no big announcement yet.

ohallen
4th Sep 2012, 21:35
Surely if nothing happens this time the Irishman and some of his senior Execs MUST fall on their swords?

golfjet744
4th Sep 2012, 21:56
it is widely known around head office now that these 787's are not fit for the expansion plans. Due to 'performance' issues several of the planned 'expansion' routes are not possible on the 787 in the configuration needed for low cost long haul.

Now of course the 900's are cancelled / delayed meaning all the expansion plans into southern europe and the west coast of the USA are stuffed again........ unless of course a few 777's come the way of Jetstar as part of a common fleet with the 787. Then Jetstar could give all those clapped out A330's back to Qantas.

So it's the 787s that are the problem with making money with the LCC model on longhaul routes? Yep so much money was going to be made by jetstar with the 787-9 that they delayed the delivery date.

It ain't the 787 that has stuffed the expansion plans of jetstar international into Europe and the USA. It's the fact they won't make as much money as a premium carrier.

the amount of money that is being wasted in fuel bills by the 744 and 380 is appalling. The 777 with a red tail would have given the group $300M more profit. That figure grows rapidly depending upon how many 777 replace 744. The group will get as many 777 as they can afford but it'll be to replace gas guzzlers not for expansion.

golfjet744
4th Sep 2012, 22:12
As for the 788. They were purchased for Qf domestic but were going to be used by jetstar int as a stepping stone to the 789.

Given the battle that is unfolding on the domestic front, I wouldnt be surprised if a larger potion of 788 find their way straight to Qf Dom.

You never know, jetstar int may actually find themselves contracting until the arrival of the 789.

Mstr Caution
4th Sep 2012, 22:36
That follows my logic of:

1. JQ an A320 operation only
2. No money in LCC longhaul
3. A330's returned from JQ to support the Domestic mainline front
4. 787 to mainline to allow retirement of inefficient fleet
5. FWA will provide 787 mainline at 767 rates which in their view protects mainline from pilot redundancies.
6. EK to provide international services code shared with QF on some routes allowing mainline A330's to return to Domestic.
7. A return of Qantas mainline B737's to leisure routes.

AJ has pledged to turn around QF mainline to profitability within three years.

If he fails to do so he's gone, so there has to be some sort of major shakeup & soon.

DutchRoll
4th Sep 2012, 22:48
AJ has pledged to turn around QF mainline to profitability within three years.
AJ has made a lot of pledges, yet he's still there.

IsDon
4th Sep 2012, 22:54
That follows my logic of:

1. JQ an A320 operation only
2. No money in LCC longhaul
3. A330's returned from JQ to support the Domestic mainline front
4. 787 to mainline to allow retirement of inefficient fleet
5. FWA will provide 787 mainline at 767 rates which in their view protects mainline from pilot redundancies.
6. EK to provide international services code shared with QF on some routes allowing mainline A330's to return to Domestic.
7. A return of Qantas mainline B737's to leisure routes.

AJ has pledged to turn around QF mainline to profitability within three years.

If he fails to do so he's gone, so there has to be some sort of major shakeup & soon.

All pigs fueled up and ready to fly. :D

golfjet744
4th Sep 2012, 23:33
That follows my logic of:

1. JQ an A320 operation only
2. No money in LCC longhaul
3. A330's returned from JQ to support the Domestic mainline front
4. 787 to mainline to allow retirement of inefficient fleet
5. FWA will provide 787 mainline at 767 rates which in their view protects mainline from pilot redundancies.
6. EK to provide international services code shared with QF on some routes allowing mainline A330's to return to Domestic.
7. A return of Qantas mainline B737's to leisure routes.

1. Possible but they need a larger frame to link up the hubs. 788 would be a good fit. But they won't operate far from Asia.
2. Tick (airasiax)
3. Tick
4. 788 not for inefficient fleet but due to a significantly confused product in domestic.
5. Wouldn't pretend to know what they are thinking.
6. Ek to provide int services to stabilize the shrinking network on offer to freqflyers. It also allows accelerated retirement of 744 - not the 744er.
7. Not 738. Having 788 in Qf Dom allows high airframe utilization in between being used on leisure routes.

As for Joyce, he was the CEO to "steer" Qf through the industrial turmoil but he ain't the CEO to engage employees and drive yield growth.

QF94
5th Sep 2012, 00:30
"Then Jetstar could give all those clapped out A330's back to Qantas."

They are not old aircraft so why are they clapped out?

VH-EBA (First revenue service SYD-MEL 28 December 2002)
VH-EBB (First revenue service MEL-SYD 9 January 2003)
VH-EBC (First revenue service MEL-PER 18 March 2003)
VH-EBD (First revenue service MEL-SYD 26 April 2003)

These were initially received by QANTAS and then handed to Jetstar for their international routes, which have slowly eroded QANTAS International. I don't have the hours and cycles on hand, but can easily get them.

Going by AJ's statistics of the average age of the fleet being 8.3 years, these are old aircraft.

Then we have VH-EBJ June 2008, VH-EBK August 2008, VH-EBQ March 2011, VH-EBR October 2011 and VH-EBS November 2011. These ones not so old, but will need a lot of work to reconfigure them for QANTAS operations.

It ain't the 787 that has stuffed the expansion plans of jetstar international into Europe and the USA. It's the fact they won't make as much money as a premium carrier.

Emirates have done that, and the fact that people simply don't want to fly Jetstar. It looks like a cheap airline and is promoted as a cheap airline, but people want that little bit more. For example, the HNL sector from Sydney, Jetstar is now flying daily and QANTAS 3x weekly. QANTAS is very much full and yet there are plenty of seats on Jetstar. Mainland USA, Jetstar will fail based on its current model. Europe, why fly Jetstar when you can get a ticket for about the same price and fly Emirates, Virgin, SQ, TG, CX, etc?

the amount of money that is being wasted in fuel bills by the 744 and 380 is appalling. The 777 with a red tail would have given the group $300M more profit. That figure grows rapidly depending upon how many 777 replace 744. The group will get as many 777 as they can afford but it'll be to replace gas guzzlers not for expansion.

That just goes to show the incompetence and arrogance of both the previous and current management. All the smart airlines got 777's and are getting the 747-800's and even the 787's. If things go to plan, QANTAS International will have just a fleet of 12 A380's by 2020.

AJ has pledged to turn around QF mainline to profitability within three years.

If he fails to do so he's gone, so there has to be some sort of major shakeup & soon.

That's why he has Strambie as CEO of Domestic and Hickey as CEO of International. Should either of those two fail, they'll be gone, not Joyce, and the board will remain intact to hammer the final nail into QANTAS International.

Mstr Caution
5th Sep 2012, 00:45
Who's reading PPrune?

Emirates the 'missing piece in earnings bridge' for Qantas (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/emirates-the-missing-piece-in-earnings-bridge-for-qantas-20120905-25dfj.html)

From the article:

The code-share agreement is believed to include route swaps whereby Emirates would operate the majority of flights on some routes, such as those out of Perth to Europe.

Rumour has it Perth & Adelaide to go to EK

"We expect an agreement to be announced shortly, with the two carriers likely to code-share over Dubai into Europe, as well as on certain Tasman and Asian services," he said in note today.

Rumour was EK to operate code shares across the Tasman.

The code-share arrangement would also free up additional Boeing 737 aircraft for Qantas, as well as allowing it to accelerate the retirement of up to six older 747 jumbos.

Rumour was EK accross the Tasman freed up B737's from Jetconnect to return to Mainline.

Despite the prospects of a deal with Emirates, Mr Shaw said Qantas still faced challenges in the medium term in improving its network in Asia to help it to compete against Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines.

JQ LCC widebody operations to Asia can't compete with the established Asian Premium players.

"Changing the flight timings will be a positive move, but the existing array of partners represents a lack of consistency in product and quality across the Asian network," he said.

Qantas customers want to fly QF, not codeshared on Jetstar International services.

Qantas also faces a short-term hit to its earnings in the domestic market in the new financial year as it seeks to repel the advances of Virgin Australia. The latter is seeking to grab a bigger share of the lucrative corporate travel, which Qantas has dominated since Ansett's collapse in 2001.

Qantas needs to return it's A330's to the Domestic market with a consistent product offering. No good to a have passenger fly east coast to Perth on an A330 & return on the B767 with the crappy cabin. The 767 interior upgrade is a stop measure until it's retired.

Mstr Caution
5th Sep 2012, 00:49
Qf94.

I'm hoping AJ wont be able to weasel himself out of responsibility by deferring blame to Strambie or Hickey.

My monies on the fact that Leigh Clifford has a lot of time for Strambie. He knows Strambie can walk into one of two other major airlines in either the USA or Europe. Domestic is the cash cow for QF, if Strambie goes well running domestic, to keep Strambie, Joyce might be the fall guy.

Notice how Strambie took a back seat whilst Joyce grounded the airline last October & I dont recall Strambie appearing before the Senate Inquiries. I think it was an intentional act to distance himself from Joyce's actions.

:suspect:

QF94
5th Sep 2012, 01:17
Here's hoping Mstr Caution, here's hoping.

In all honesty, the whole board should be ejected as there are still a few of the old cronies in there from Dixon's days including Strong, Schubert, Hounsell, Cross and Ward. Jackson and Dixon went, but the rot is still there.

Offchocks
5th Sep 2012, 02:52
VH-EBA (First revenue service SYD-MEL 28 December 2002)
VH-EBB (First revenue service MEL-SYD 9 January 2003)
VH-EBC (First revenue service MEL-PER 18 March 2003)
VH-EBD (First revenue service MEL-SYD 26 April 2003)


I would have thought 9-10 year old aircraft would be in their mid life, unless they have been trashed!

QF94
5th Sep 2012, 02:56
You would like to think that they would be half way through their life, but these aircraft don't have much down-time. Jetstar do their own maintenance on them.

As I have stated, I don't have the hours/landings figures on-hand, but I can get them.

dizzylizzy
5th Sep 2012, 08:08
Wouldn't these a/c have less cycles on them given the mid-LH routes they're used on?

moa999
6th Sep 2012, 02:04
the silence is deafening in this thread

flyhardmo
6th Sep 2012, 02:25
QF 777's here they come ... At last.


And there they go...:{

QF94
6th Sep 2012, 03:07
Quote:
Originally Posted by QF94
VH-EBA (First revenue service SYD-MEL 28 December 2002)
VH-EBB (First revenue service MEL-SYD 9 January 2003)
VH-EBC (First revenue service MEL-PER 18 March 2003)
VH-EBD (First revenue service MEL-SYD 26 April 2003)
I would have thought 9-10 year old aircraft would be in their mid life, unless they have been trashed!


Wouldn't these a/c have less cycles on them given the mid-LH routes they're used on?

VH-EBA 9,376L 40,820Hrs
VH-EBB 9,217L 41,231Hrs
VH-EBC 8,965L 41,293Hrs
VH-EBD 8,516L 40,916Hrs

This averages about 4.55 Hours/Landing

The longest route they have is Japan and the shortest is OOL from SYD.

Offchocks
6th Sep 2012, 05:00
Not exactly high time aircraft, so they shouldn't be clapped out!

maggot
6th Sep 2012, 07:24
Who woulda thunk'd it :ugh:

SOPS
6th Sep 2012, 07:30
Just like I said at the very begining of this thread "Wow, great rumours". And that all they were, rumours!!!

StallBoy
6th Sep 2012, 09:36
Who in their right mind would like to see DXB and not SIN as their stopover.:yuk: DXB is the only airport in the world where I have seen secret police bullying transit passengers, this will be a new experience for most Australians!!!:eek:
Emirates will never get me into one of their sardine tins again.:= This new deal to save Qantas will like all others end in tears,:( Qantas management will just have to manage and do the hard yards like other airlines and not get rid of those costly planes that keep loosing so much money.:ok:

Sonny Hammond
6th Sep 2012, 11:14
Nice attempt at scare mongering stallball but it's a well known fact that the no-one bullies passengers like the australian customs and immigration staff.

They are a bunch of high and mighty tools most of whom have never had any authority in the working career and frankly don't have the training or personal skills to manage it.

It's not lost on returning citizens that most of these people are new immigrants themselves and now they've got the passport, they are dishing out the love.

The fact is ALL airports are dangerous places to step out of line. Try causing trouble in LAX...... :E

Sonny Hammond
6th Sep 2012, 11:15
They've even made a TV show about it.

clear to land
6th Sep 2012, 11:42
On arrival-Customs staff is usually from the subcontinent, especially aggressive to crew holding Australian passports and makes one well and truly aware they have arrived somewhere that they are not wanted. Guess where? SYD,MEL,PER and BNE!!! Arrive in Dubai: Hello Captain, did you have a good trip? Enjoy your rest!.

SOPS
6th Sep 2012, 12:01
Clear to Land: Very well said.:D:D

ramius315
6th Sep 2012, 22:39
This was one of the funniest threads I've read on pprune!
:8

topend3
7th Sep 2012, 04:49
So is "Spirit of Australia" getting replaced with "Spirit of Dubai" ? Or "Spirit of the Middle East"?

Taildragger67
7th Sep 2012, 06:03
The "spirit" is all that's left... :{ the ghost of a once-proud national icon.

At ease
7th Sep 2012, 09:03
So is "Spirit of Australia" getting replaced with "Spirit of Dubai" ? Or "Spirit of the Middle East"?

No spirits.

Consumption of alcohol is prohibited by the Koran......

These are indeed sad times for an Australian icon.

StallBoy
7th Sep 2012, 09:13
Ex A380 driver ....Who owns all those deserted cars at DXB airport and why are they there:=????? I only wish I was joking but I will definately never fly through DXB again.
I totally agree with all the comments about Australian customs, on many occasions I have had to repack all my luggage after giving a smart answer to a stupid question.:ugh:
Good luck to all those australians having a stop over in DXB I will stick to Asia.:ok:

Going Boeing
7th Sep 2012, 10:56
So is "Spirit of Australia" getting replaced with "Spirit of Dubai" ? Or "Spirit of the Middle East"?

The writing on the sides of the aeroplanes may not change but the logo on the tail could look like this:-

http://pickeringpost.com/mediax/resources/articles/422915_400363750017789_1927417298_n.jpg?w=608

Thanks Larry Pickering for the use of your cartoon.

donpizmeov
7th Sep 2012, 14:40
Stally,

I don't think Nguyen Tuong Van has many nice things to say about Singas. Kev Barlow and Brian Chambers say they will never go to Malaysia again.

Depends on your point of view I guess.

the Don

topend3
7th Sep 2012, 23:54
I think many punters won't give a shit at the end of the day about DXB. One stop to Europe sure beats backtracking from LHR.