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fishers.ghost
31st Aug 2012, 11:52
Tim Clarke Emirates CEO will arrive in Sydney on this date.
There will follow a number of announcements.The removal of FRA from the QF schedule will be one.An arrangement with QF will be another.LHR will be lucky to survive past Christmas.This will not be just a code share

dragon man
31st Aug 2012, 20:27
Also i believe Perth Singapore and Perth Hongkong will go.

slamer.
31st Aug 2012, 21:26
So QF about to sever its ties with mother England .. maybe the first steps toward a republic (or the Irish have the last laugh) ... I dont thinks so.

Or on the other hand QF do seem to be on a road to self destruction ...:hmm:

packrat
1st Sep 2012, 00:47
Can't see QF being around to celebrate its centeniary :{

Dragun
1st Sep 2012, 00:51
Pulling out of FRA and possibly LHR, really? Do I dare ask if this will create an unprecedented flight crew surplus?

Not good news :(

Variable Incidence
1st Sep 2012, 00:53
The future's ORANGE all orange!!!

hadagutfull
1st Sep 2012, 02:18
I'll have a go at a guess also...
EK get Perth , adl and Bkk to free up the A330 for domestic .
EK get our BKK - LHR slots
We get daily flights to DXB
Any new EK 777's go to Jetstar for the SIN , HNL AND BKK routes to free up more A330's for QF Dom .
Deal with BA gone.
787 to JQ , based in SIN to feed Asia/ Europe ( fed by the 777 from Aus)
QF To BKK- gone
QF TO HNL - gone
QF TO FRA - gone
744 retirement accelerated
380 number 13 and 14 to be delivered.
All in place by Jun 2013.

First correct answer gets a seat on the board !

600ft-lb
1st Sep 2012, 02:39
EK aren't going to 'get' Perth, they already have it, along with everyone else.

Current Perth -> west flights
SQ 3x daily
EK 3x daily
CX 10x week
MH 10x week
QF 2x daily
QR 3x week

denabol
1st Sep 2012, 02:58
Erh, is this telling us that the Dreamliner was cancelled because it didn't fit in with EK's fleet plan for QF?

Qantas-Emirates route hand over expected within days | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/09/01/qantas-emirates-route-hand-over-expected-within-days/)

pull-up-terrain
1st Sep 2012, 03:00
I know we are pulling out of Frankfurt in October because QF told me last wednesday that they no longer need me up in Frankfurt in october because QF will no longer be flying there.
But i really doubt QF is pulling out of LHR (I know the managers that do work for QF up in LHR have heard nothing about QF pulling out of LHR). I will be very surprised if they do because QF are actually filling up business, first and premium economy with out much trouble (QF are by far the most expensive on that route too).

Toruk Macto
1st Sep 2012, 03:19
What's any of this got to do with what qantas wants ?

Management101
1st Sep 2012, 06:45
How much is it worth to ek to fly the pacific. This should interest all of you.

ohallen
1st Sep 2012, 07:08
If all this is true, the Board better make sure they know what they are doing because they are betting the farm on a one roll dice.

Wonder how BA feel about being done over in the process.

angryrat
1st Sep 2012, 07:43
the Board better make sure they know what they are doing because they are betting the farm on a one roll dice.


The grounding comes to mind :ugh: Management have proven that they have no issue betting the business on a roll of the dice. Problem with that strategy is eventually you roll a number that puts you out of the game.

ohallen
1st Sep 2012, 10:37
And if that happens there is a slight difference between management and the board. The Board can be held accountable under Corps Law, look at James Hardy and many other recent events where shareholders have suffered major losses.

gobbledock
1st Sep 2012, 11:59
If all this is true, the Board better make sure they know what they are doing because they are betting the farm on a one roll dice.
Haha. Oy yes, they really know what they are doing! Innovative, intelligent, savvy, experienced in commercial aviation, honesty and integrity.....haha

AEROMEDIC
1st Sep 2012, 12:33
There may be some benefits for Qantas in any alliance with Emirates, but importantly, will it include access to cheaper fuel?
Without this in the equation, the board are only delaying the inevitable.
If included, it might go some way to justify cancelling the 787order.

donpizmeov
1st Sep 2012, 13:05
How would QF get cheaper fuel? EK pay the market rate, which is why we sometimes tanker back to DXB. Please tell me you don't believe that Margie Jackson blurb about free fuel from years ago when she was trying to sell QF for a big bonus?

The Don

haughtney1
1st Sep 2012, 13:31
NOOOOOOOOO Don, don't let them in on the secret of our free fuel......otherwise they'll all be tankering up to within 1% of MLW out of KWI :cool:

SOPS
1st Sep 2012, 13:39
Where the hell does this cheap/free fuel thing come from?:ugh::ugh::ugh: I came back from KWI the other day with an extra 30000kgs of fuel...oh I know EK gets paid to take fuel from KWI..everywhere else its free:ugh::ugh::ugh: Give me a break!!!!

Emirates does NOT get free/cheap fuel people, full stop.!!!!!!!!

donpizmeov
1st Sep 2012, 13:50
SOPs and hauntney I hope you are being careful with these old 777s as we want them in good nic when they get handed down to QF. Wonder if they will be delivered with a full tank of gas?

the Don

haughtney1
1st Sep 2012, 14:01
SOPs and hauntney I hope you are being careful with these old 777s as we want them in good nic when they get handed down to QF. Wonder if they will be delivered with a full tank of gas?

Old 777's Don? I'll have you know....if it ain't EGA and beyond...2 gets worn out on my phone:E Old is only good with pizza or wine :}

I reckon though if we do send an old clunker or two....mayby a set of steak knives as well?

(all said in jest people)

SOPS
1st Sep 2012, 14:01
I only ever take mine down to the corner shop on a Friday afternoon, Don, just to fill it up with free fuel, I promise.:E

BPA
2nd Sep 2012, 00:06
The old 777's will be a good match for the old 737's and 767's currently making up the Qantas fleet.

bdcer
2nd Sep 2012, 01:01
Hmmm old 737....

http://pattayamail.com/956/pic/t2-Qantasr.jpg

Metro man
2nd Sep 2012, 03:51
Because QF is an end of the line carrier with a relatively small home market and a sparsely populated catchment area tie ups makes sense. No one flies via Australia to get some where else, it doesn't make sense.

A daily flight from each capital city to Singapore for the Asian connections, and a daily run to Dubai for the European/American connections would just about cover it. Time to start talking to SQ as well ?

Only London, Los Angeles, Hong Kong, Bangkok and a few other would be worth doing all the way with QF aircraft.

Emirates hub and spoke network can make money moving people between Perth and Paris, QFs point to point system can't.

Mstr Caution
2nd Sep 2012, 05:52
AJ has got us all fooled with his end of the line bu//$#:/.

Europe isnt the only place people want to fly to.

People still want to fly to or from Australia direct to:

1. The Pacific
2. North America
3. South America
4. Asia
5. Middle East
6. South Africa

In that regard Australia is placed geographically well to provide these direct services.

What happens when commercial capability allows ultra long haul Australia direct Europe bypassing the Asian & ME hub carriers?

Qantas is positioned poorly now because of the lost years thinking mainline would look after itself whilst executives frolicked around Asia starting other enterprises.

They are paying the price of taking their eye off the ball.

maggot
2nd Sep 2012, 06:02
AJ has got us all fooled with his end of the line bu//$#:/.

Europe isnt the only place people want to fly to.

People still want to fly to or from Australia direct to:

1. The Pacific
2. North America
3. South America
4. Asia
5. Middle East
6. South Africa

In that regard Australia is placed geographically well to provide these direct services.

What happens when commercial capability allows ultra long haul Australia direct Europe bypassing the Asian & ME hub carriers?

Qantas is positioned poorly now because of the lost years thinking mainline would look after itself whilst executives frolicked around Asia starting other enterprises.

The staff and shareholders paying the price of taking their eye off the ball.

good post MC but i fixed the last line for you

Turkeyslapper
2nd Sep 2012, 06:40
Interesting to read the local take on this over here in the sand pit. The local papers don't seem to hold the Qantas position in all this as being particularly strong...more a case of a dog with its tail between its legs :{ Would be great to see Qantas in this part of the world though!

These quotes from a local paper here in Dubai on the wekend:

“Given the poor state of affairs at Qantas, the airline is effectively now forced to join up with Emirates, its one-time adversary, as the ailing Australian carrier battles to survive,” Saj Ahmad, chief analyst at London-based StrategicAero Research, told Khaleej Times.


.“As Qantas deferring A380s and cancelling 35 787-9s, there’s simply no way they can grow with a small 747-400 fleet and just a dozen A380s when compared to the hundreds of wide-bodied 777s and A380s that Emirates has at its disposal.

And this says it all about local perceptions here and their thoughts on what Qantas has to offer.


Had Qantas bothered to get its house in order beforehand, it could have got a better deal with its Arabian rival,” Ahmad concluded.


Cheers

Mstr Caution
2nd Sep 2012, 06:41
AJ spruikes that Qantas is the best investment grade airline in the world.

It's been profitable for the last 20 years.

Last time I looked Australia's geography hasn't changed.

What has changed is Qantas' ability to compete on service standards with that of other foreign carriers.

How many times has Dixon & Joyce stated customers will pay a premium to fly Qantas.

They still do, the fares Qantas charge to Europe and the aircraft are still full.

I have spoken to CEO's in passing when I've had the opportunity.

Repeatedly they have told me Qantas don't compete internationally on product and network.

THRidle
2nd Sep 2012, 07:02
That's so true M.C.

When a passenger leaves a Qantas flight for an Emirates code share sector, that will be the last time QF see that passenger.

AEROMEDIC
2nd Sep 2012, 07:03
How would QF get cheaper fuel? EK pay the market rate, which is why we sometimes tanker back to DXB. Please tell me you don't believe that Margie Jackson blurb about free fuel from years ago when she was trying to sell QF for a big bonus?

The Don

[QUOTE][Where the hell does this cheap/free fuel thing come from? I came back from KWI the other day with an extra 30000kgs of fuel...oh I know EK gets paid to take fuel from KWI..everywhere else its free Give me a break!!!!


Emirates does NOT get free/cheap fuel people, full stop.!!!!!!!!/QUOTE]

Guys,

It was a question, not a statement.

I was asking for info to complete the picture I have of the situation, but I didn't expect the emotion received.
To answer your question Don, NO I didn't believe Margret Jackson's statement.

You guys are touchy......:eek:

Metro man
2nd Sep 2012, 08:56
What happens when commercial capability allows ultra long haul Australia direct Europe bypassing the Asian & ME hub carriers?

Sydney and Melbourne direct to London would be a goer. There aren't enough people wanting Brisbane to Madrid to make it viable non stop, also not everyone wants to connect via London. Melbourne to Athens via Dubai save a lot of backtracking.

Emirates can fill planes from secondary cities such as Perth because people getting onto that plane are going to multiple destinations rather than just one. Effectively you combine several flights to different places on one aircraft, which if flown individually wouldn't be economic.

skybed
3rd Sep 2012, 09:17
Why JB did not get the gig at QF. he wantedntomtake on middle east carriers by flying LHR/ central Europa direct via Perth. Making Perth a hub to distribute pax to major centers in OZ. the intelligence of the board did not get the strategy.:=

V-Jet
3rd Sep 2012, 11:42
The hand sweeping majestically across the once owned globe (realm of Qantas) is now struggling to maintain RPT twixt BNE-SYD-MEL.

The parallels are staggering. Tragic, disgusting, but staggering.

At least one 'once great' leader I can think of immediately had the decency to dispose of himself in a (semi) respectable manner..

qantas-twitter_downfall.wmv - YouTube

woodja51
3rd Sep 2012, 14:53
No I dont believe they get cheap or free fuel either , however if normal subsidies that are applied to car petrol in DXB which last time I was there was about 6 dhs a gallon or so I think( happy to stand corrected) so pretty cheap by oz stds.

So if the AVTUR at least out of DXB did not attract any of the sort of taxes applied to other carriers globally at there source, there could be an argument about a partial subsidy in effect.

Airlines more or less pay the same for their jets, the same for fuel and the same for other elements on a global scale. Thus , the only significant difference is the cost of labour.

So.... If you take the total number of EK employees as 50000 divided into about 150 jets you get....around 333 per aircraft... So not the worlds lowest figures... ( I think southwest have 80 per jet) .

Ipso facto if they are making the sort of profits they are , the main variables being labour costs leads to the conclusion they have a lower wage cost base.

Which is probably true.

Widebody captain doing average hours on probably 250k AUD tax free but total employee cost still equals 250 to EK, versus QF 380 captain on around 350k .... So 30% lower ... And this is across all employee groups...that is the reason they make coin.

Oh , and the fact they can vary FTLs, get waivers , annex a,b,c variations
And increase overtime hours to 92 per month from around 80 12 years ago helps the bottom line.

Even a govermnent owned airline like China Southern cant get its CAAC to be as maleable to changes as the GCAA is to EKs requests...but then the chairman of CZ is not the chairman of the CAAC either... Hmmmmm ?

But is still a good gig by most measures hence the line up to get in there- I had a good time and if you can keep below the radar its still a good opportunity compared to staying in a slowly dying career path at QF!

WJA

Mister Warning
3rd Sep 2012, 17:21
Woodie,
Totally agree with you except that your salary figures are conservative. Accurate enough for tech crew but the blunties chucking bags in the desert earning Oz $500 a month is more like a tenth of what QF has to pay. Same for most of the "lower" grades at the airport in Dubai.
Aircraft purchase price is also lower at EK. I know for a fact that EK pays less for a 380 than for a 777-300ER! Utilisation is higher too. Every time you land at LHR you can see multiple QF jets on remote parking half the day. EK don't ever let the oil cool down.
Unionised crew spend twice as long per layover tthan EK crew, requiring twice as many bodies and doubling the salary, allowances, and hotel costs.
Blind Freddie can see where this is going....
MW.

Squawk-7600
3rd Sep 2012, 18:53
That's rarely the fault of the crew, though management may like to have people believe that's the case. EK typically enter a market with daily services, on the other hand QF seem to think a few a week will do the trick. The crew sit around waiting for the next service to lob up. European services are typically constrained by curfew requirements at each end. Having said all that, QF's fleet utilisation is absolutely miserable and management seem to believe that having aircraft sitting on the ground is good for business, part of their "cost saving" brilliance by not having them in the air costing money to run I suppose. But it typically doesn't come down to crew, at least not unless you consider insane and blatantly unsafe 2 man crewing hours used by some airlines.

dizzylizzy
3rd Sep 2012, 19:39
As far as I'm aware the LHR reschedule was to "best suit business travellers with early morning arrivals..." though both 380's sit in LHR all day (14-16hrs).. hmm not the best utilisation? :D

If QF were to send 380's to DXB that's 3 per rotation essentially allowing an extra day of work each month / aircraft...

neville_nobody
4th Sep 2012, 02:41
Unionised crew spend twice as long per layover tthan EK crew, requiring twice as many bodies and doubling the salary, allowances, and hotel costs

Layover times have nothing to do with unions. The fact remains that EK is ultimately the government and essentially there are no laws so therefore the minimum rest is whatever Emirates says it is. Just like your work contract. You sign a contract but don't expect them to honour it.

Same as with factored flight time. Every airline in the world logs flight time as flight time but not at Emirates. You can fly for 15 hours but only half goes in the logbook.

I believe the FAA were looking into some of these issues but not sure what came of it.

Pretty hard to compete with that sort of competitive advantage.

Mister Warning
4th Sep 2012, 03:39
Neville,
Why then do QF layovers exceed the minimum by over 200%? AJ's kindness?
MW.

neville_nobody
4th Sep 2012, 03:59
I would suggest it is a frequency issue and possibly a reserve coverage issue rather than some union mandated minimum. We also have laws which are difficult to change in regard to flight and duty.

Emirates often go places twice a day so you can end up with a 15 hour flight followed by a 18 hour layover then back home again.

SandyPalms
4th Sep 2012, 04:22
This thread is reminding me of the poster on this site who blamed AIPA for somehow making QF only do Flap 2 Takeoff's on the A330. :ugh:

I would have thought the slip time is function of FDTL's and the schedule. I doubt AIPA has any input in it what so ever.

Gotnogoals
4th Sep 2012, 04:34
Widebody captain doing average hours on probably 250k AUD tax free but total employee cost still equals 250 to EK, versus QF 380 captain on around 350k .... So 30% lower ... And this is across all employee groups...that is the reason they make coin.

Thats great woodie but your forgetting something: (from Tim Clarke)

Some airlines have claimed that being based in Dubai gives Emirates an unfair labour cost advantage over other airlines. Emirates has countered this by stating that it faces the same costs to attract and retain staff recruited from around the world on expatriate terms and conditions as other airlines. The airline points out that the total cost of expatriate employee benefits amounts to more than US$400 million per annum

Mister Warning
4th Sep 2012, 04:54
Not so, Neville. All ULRs at EK have at least 24 hours rest, and the longer flights have 48.
Speaking of 48, CAO 48 is available online for you at Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Home (http://www.casa.gov.au). Doesn't mention anything about needing two and a half days off in London after a 14 hour flight....
And are you suggesting the crew are on reserve down route?

Taildragger67
4th Sep 2012, 04:55
As far as I'm aware the LHR reschedule was to "best suit business travellers with early morning arrivals..."

I've heard that line before.

And it was, is and always will be b0llocks.

As a business traveller, I f:mad:g hate early morning arrivals. Can't check into a hotel, so I feel tired & scuzzy all day. Just what you need walking into a meeting, to know you're half asleep...

Aus - Europe you're going to miss a day no matter what you do. Better to arrive at night, get a feed, a decent sleep & kick off the next morning in some kind of reasonable shape.

So QF tin the 32 and say "here SQ, here's a full A380 load of punters that we don't want any more". :ugh:

DirectAnywhere
4th Sep 2012, 06:07
Two local nights on a 10 day duty also may have something to do with it.

neville_nobody
4th Sep 2012, 08:07
Minimum rest is set by the GCAA not Emirates. The UAE GCAA sets the FTLs, following closely, international standards. There are a few variations.

Yes but they can hardly be call independent when the president of Emirates was part of that. It was like having QF on the board of CASA. The argument that the GCAA is some sort of independent authority doesn't hold much water.

Meanwhile QF have to deal with CASA and all the problems that involves.

There are simply no 15 hour sectors with 18 hours layovers. Zero. Very few layovers less than 24 hours

Poor wording on my behalf but I believe the Houston flights were somewhat an issue at one stage. Whilst the layover was 24 hours by the time you account for getting around it didn't add up to much. Also if you look at the MEL accident there wasn't much rest going on there.

When you are a nominated augmenting pilot, you do not log hours spent in the bunk (for the purposes of the 100hr and 900hr limits).
There is no 'factor' applied. Typically on a 31hr ULR pairing, you log around 22 hours.

Which the rest of the world logs as flight time. Either we agree it is or it isn't and we all play by the same rules.

Visual Procedures
4th Sep 2012, 09:55
Yes but they can hardly be call independent when the president of Emirates was part of that. It was like having QF on the board of CASA. The argument that the GCAA is some sort of independent authority doesn't hold much water.


Wrong Woodja and Wrong Neville. HH Sheikh Ahmed has nothing to do with the GCAA.

He is the president of the DCAA.

haughtney1
4th Sep 2012, 10:45
Which the rest of the world logs as flight time. Either we agree it is or it isn't and we all play by the same rules.

Neville, in the instance you quote...we could argue that QF gains an unfair advantage as it employs second officers....they are cheaper, it's not fair because here at EK we have 2 Capts and 2 F/O's on ULR pairings...not a cruise F/O in sight.

Whilst I agree with you regarding the practice, you are wrong, I worked for a number of years for one of the largest charter airlines in Europe.
On long haul sectors we logged the time we were in the seat, unless you were the PIC...as was allowed by the UK CAA in variation to the standard CAP 371 FTL scheme.
EK factor augmenting crew flight times as Contacted says, If I'm operating DXB-PER for instance, I am credited the full Block-time, the AUG guy/girl gets planned at 60% but logs the actual time in the seat..and is paid for the full block time and credited the full duty.
EK's FTL's are almost a cut and paste of the UK's old CAP 371 system, QF under CASA may have more restrictive FTL's but that's a national difference rather than a conspiracy to undercut everyone on EK's behalf.

S70IP
4th Sep 2012, 11:44
I hope for Qantas' sake this is more than a code share deal. It better be revenue etc etc, the whole deal needing ACCC approval, and contracts to be signed. Or it's goodbye Qantas international.

gobbledock
4th Sep 2012, 12:07
Just a couple of hours to go....
Rumor has it that AJ will announce that he has reinstated his bonus for 2012/2013 and that board member Cosgrove has gone on a long overdue diet.

oz in dxb
4th Sep 2012, 14:03
Board Of Directors (http://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/pages/boardofdirectors.aspx)

uplock
4th Sep 2012, 14:05
Minimum rest is set by the GCAA not Emirates. The UAE GCAA sets the FTLs, following closely, international standards. There are a few variations.
Contacted There's bucket loads of variations, here is one example. EK ULR FTL's max Flight Duty = 22 hours with NO MINIMUM rest period after completing such a duty.
There is minimum rest stated under the normal FTL rules however the ULR flights and pairings are a different kettle of fish and this over sight was a brilliant commercial decision don't you think ?
A line of thought is that as the ULR scheme is approved by the regulator then it must be OK ?
CAR-OPS 1.1130 ULR OPS and CAAP 14 ULR Operations documents available for download on the GCAA web site for what is expected of a ULR operator in the UAE.

International Standards for ULR Flights ? There are none. GCAA mention on their web site that they view both ULR operators in the UAE as pioneers in ULR operations. Look forward to more ground breaking FTLs coming your way sooner rather than later. woodja51 comments are on the right track.

haughtney1
4th Sep 2012, 14:20
Uplock, I'm wondering if you are being a little misleading here? with reference to the ULR rest plan....a quick check shows that the different kettle of fish i.e no min rest relates to disruption, rather than normal ops, and is contingent on the commanders say so. Not an unreasonable variation I would suggest.
Secondly, you have either deliberately or in error conveniently not included the approved route specific rest plan, that is not only GCAA and company approved, but must also be approved by the destination authority...why muddy the waters with as few facts as possible eh.
FWIW I find ULR flights less fatiguing than a EU trip because we can tailor the rest, and I can sleep in those rather uncomfortable bunks:ok:

uplock
4th Sep 2012, 18:05
haughtney1 Informative with relevant source material. No Muddy waters and your wrong about rest/disruption it applies on scheduled/planned and actual basis .Show me the paragraph stating the required rest when you do up to 22 hrs duty (There is none, and why not as this is addressed in the normal FTL's ) and I will buy you a beer. Lots of facts contained in the relevant GCAA CAR (http://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication/admin/Library%20Pdf/Civil%20Aviation%20Regulations%20(CARs)/OPERATIONAL%20REGULATIONS/AIRCRAFT%20OPERATIONS/CAR-OPS%201%20-.pdf) mentioned above along with GCAA CAAP14 (http://www.google.ae/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CE4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gcaa.gov.ae%2Fen%2FePublication%2F_layo uts%2FGCAA%2FePublication%2FDownloadFile.aspx%3FUn%3D%2Fen%2 Fepublication%2Fadmin%2FLibrary%2520Pdf%2FCivil%2520Aviation %2520Advisory%2520Publication%2520(CAAP)%2FCAAP14%2520ULR.pd f&ei=J_QZUPnmG8-tiQeZtIEY&usg=AFQjCNHgNe7EKTRwUXlLFctyPFnFFaueww&sig2=qVQ7Zwq0XlaFJA8_OLsmcw). Your misinformed about approval being subject to the destination authority . Providing the GCAA are happy then every one else goes with the flow.

I understand your view and where your coming from. I recall a flight on our network that went over the 22 hr limitation several years ago where the crew decided to operate back to DXB after having less than 19 hrs rest . Our FTLs on ULR ops do not spell out minimum rest, unlike the GCAA ULR regulations which do state that 48 hrs is the minimum rest after doing a ULR sector. GCAA define a sector length of 16 hrs being a ULR flight where EK define it as 14 hrs . Have to correct you from the GCAA CAAP 14 (6.2.1)The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.

Sunfish
4th Sep 2012, 21:00
The word has been getting out - Qantas shares down 2.56% yesterday.

The slow strangling of the airline by its management will continue until the Government of the day agrees to repeal the Qantas Sale Act so that the bastards can privatise it.

At which point, Qantas will "miraculously" start to recover....and make good profits again...by screwing Australian travellers like they used to do.

Stalins ugly Brother
4th Sep 2012, 21:01
Joyce won't announce anything today, that would give the markets nearly three full working days to digest and react to the news.

IF there is an announcement or deal, which I'm lead to believe it's looking less and less likely it will come late on a friday afternoon or on a weekend when the markets are closing/closed and all eyes are on the footy finals.

Mstr Caution
4th Sep 2012, 22:42
I wouldn't think Tim Clark would fly in for a Mochichino or latte with Joyce.

Either an announcement or some serious negotiations behind the scenes.

Unless of course, Clark is more interested in talking to the government who would be at work mid week. A face to face to bolster support for a deal that can be stamped by the ACCC.

virginexcess
4th Sep 2012, 22:44
There wont be any revenue share.

With last years union debacle, and ongoing industrial issues at QF, Tim Clark will never expose emirates to that crap.

He is not going to risk funding a QF industrial dispute.

UAE companies are very cautious around labour issues. They enjoy absolute control of their workforce and it is a critical element to their flexibility and therefore profitability. If Clark gets any hint that he may have to discuss anything with a union before he wants to implement it.............Game over.

adsyj
4th Sep 2012, 23:22
Alan is going to say sorry.

ButFli
4th Sep 2012, 23:38
I notice EK412 will be almost 10 hours late into SYD today. Less than 1.5 hours late out of DXB though... What's up with that? Sux to be the CEO on that flight!

Maybe it's all a secret plot to make Qantas look better than Emirates ahead of the big announcement ha ha.

Toruk Macto
5th Sep 2012, 00:00
Industrial tactics 101 , make them wait to show who is in charge !

JohnMcGhie
5th Sep 2012, 00:13
I don't understand: it left an hour and a quarter late, and is landing 10 hours late, on a direct flight!

That's one hell of a headwind. Has it stopped somewhere for a potty stop and a sandwich?

Cheers

The The
5th Sep 2012, 00:15
If you look on the Emirates site flight status, it left DXB 10hrs late.

unseen
5th Sep 2012, 00:20
I notice EK412 will be almost 10 hours late into SYD today. Less than 1.5 hours late out of DXB though... What's up with that? Sux to be the CEO on that flight!

Maybe it's all a secret plot to make Qantas look better than Emirates ahead of the big announcement ha ha.

It departed about 9:30 late - looking for pjs maybe???

fishers.ghost
5th Sep 2012, 00:51
The value to Qantas of a code-share alliance with Middle Eastern airline Emirates has been estimated at up to $90 million a year in pre-tax earnings.
The estimate by Macquarie Equities analysts comes as the Emirates chief executive, Tim Clark, visits Sydney this week, fuelling further speculation that the Dubai-based airline is on the verge of signing an alliance with Qantas covering routes between Australia and Europe.
The code-share agreement is believed to include route swaps whereby Emirates would operate the majority of flights on some routes, such as those out of Perth to Europe.
Critics say Qantas is acting from a position of weakness in pursuing a code-share deal, and risks handing passengers to Emirates without significant benefits.
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But Macquarie's transport analyst, Russell Shaw, has described a tie up with Emirates as the "missing piece in the earnings bridge" for Qantas in helping to turn around its premium international operations, which lost $450 million in the year to June.
Mr Shaw has estimated that the annual benefits to Qantas of a tie up with Emirates will be between $80 million and $90 million in pre-tax earnings.
"We expect an agreement to be announced shortly, with the two carriers likely to code-share over Dubai into Europe, as well as on certain Tasman and Asian services," he said in note today.
The code-share arrangement would also free up additional Boeing 737 aircraft for Qantas, as well as allowing it to accelerate the retirement of up to six older 747 jumbos.
Qantas is understood to have wanted to pursue a deeper alliance with Emirates than just a code-share deal but the Middle Eastern airline would not entertain the proposal. A more substantive revenue or profit-sharing alliance would have taken at least a year to complete.
Emirates has also repeatedly ruled out taking an equity stake in Qantas.
Despite the prospects of a deal with Emirates, Mr Shaw said Qantas still faced challenges in the medium term in improving its network in Asia to help it to compete against Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines.
"Changing the flight timings will be a positive move, but the existing array of partners represents a lack of consistency in product and quality across the Asian network," he said.
Qantas also faces a short-term hit to its earnings in the domestic market in the new financial year as it seeks to repel the advances of Virgin Australia. The latter is seeking to grab a bigger share of the lucrative corporate travel, which Qantas has dominated since Ansett's collapse in 2001.
"Clearly the pending Emirates announcement is a major positive catalyst ... but the domestic capacity outlook remains elevated and Qantas's reluctance to provide quantitative yield commentary ... will do little to quell investor concerns over any deterioration in the domestic market," Mr Shaw said.
Qantas has stopped giving a figure on the movement in yields – or returns from fares – in its monthly traffic statistics after a decade of doing so.

Emirates the 'missing piece in earnings bridge' for Qantas (http://www.smh.com.au/business/emirates-the-missing-piece-in-earnings-bridge-for-qantas-20120905-25dfj.html#ixzz25YHOBkjk)

Chock
5th Sep 2012, 02:52
ButFli, TC flew down on the EK414. Alot of other EK promo staff were on the 412.

safari005
5th Sep 2012, 03:18
EK 412 did an inflight return to DXB yesterday afternoon,they were dumping fuel in Muscat airspace as we flew through, I think due to a gear door prob? Not sure of the exact reason it returned but that's why the 10 hour delay

Visual Procedures
5th Sep 2012, 03:54
Also wrong I'm afraid, Visual Procedures

Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum is President of the DCA (Department of Civil Aviation) which is often mistaken for the GCAA (UAE General Civil Aviation Authority), on which he is a board member.
The GCAA regulates Civil Aviation in Dubai.

Mmmmm.. Hat not so tasty.. Off to find some chocolate topping :ok:

Bad Adventures
5th Sep 2012, 04:42
Somebody knows something, the share price has moved 5 cents in the last hour.

haughtney1
5th Sep 2012, 05:07
ButFli, TC flew down on the EK414. Alot of other EK promo staff were on the 412.


TC must have absolutely and positively had to be in SYD....in which case the 777 is less likely to do A180

C441
5th Sep 2012, 07:03
Tim Clark may be in Sydney but I believe Joyce is in London.
Have heard the announcement is (and possibly always was) planned for the 12th Sept.

bubble.head
5th Sep 2012, 07:13
Tim Clark may be in Sydney but I believe Joyce is in London.
Have heard the announcement is (and possibly always was) planned for the 12th Sept.

Are you guys sure that you are not mistaken with the Apple's announcement?

Offchocks
5th Sep 2012, 07:35
The silence is deafening, so much for an announcement!

armchair quarterback
5th Sep 2012, 07:36
tomorrow, Alan Joyce will announce that he has effectively sold the farm. He has simply found another way around the QSA that will allow him to code share with EK while not operating on the one time blue ribbon routes. He will then announce that he will plough more cash and resources into the spluttering mining sector because 'that is where the future of Qantas lies'.
The press will then applaud and marvel at the intellectual giant that Alan is. Meanwhile, the loyal shareholders and staff at Qantas watch on in vain as the airline recedes to become a shadow of its former self.

Fast forward 12 months, the airline's spot price is barely junk value and Alan skips off into the sunset with bonus and golden parachute in tow. Sad, sad day indeed.

donpizmeov
5th Sep 2012, 07:43
I now understand why all these QF announcement threads have dates with no year attached.

The Don

dizzylizzy
5th Sep 2012, 08:01
Does it really require AJ to be there? I mean with Hickey CEO of int now, wouldn't he be the man of the show?

1a sound asleep
5th Sep 2012, 08:06
QANTAS is expected to announce a partnership with Middle Eastern airline Emirates tomorrow.

Emirates president Tim Clark will be in Sydney and the Sydney to Auckland sector of an Emirates flight has been cancelled that day, with industry speculation it has been set aside for publicity purposes.

Under the partnership between Australia's national carrier and the world's largest international airline, some Qantas flights would transit via Dubai instead of Singapore.

It would give Australian travellers access to 30 destinations in Europe and 18 in Africa.

Qantas would no longer fly to Frankfurt, its last port in mainland Europe.

Qantas currently has an agreement with British Airways on the Kangaroo Route to London, with the new route nicknamed "the falcon route'' after the United Arab Emirates' national bird.

Middle Eastern carriers are increasingly focusing their attention on Australia as the strong dollar continues to entice a record number of people to travel overseas.

Emirates will begin flying from Adelaide in November, increasing the flights to daily from February, and is also increasing its flights from Perth.

Virgin Australia has a partnership with Etihad, but Qatar Airways doesn't have a local codeshare partner.
A Qantas spokeswoman declined to comment on the deal.

"There's always speculation about Qantas," she said. "We are regularly in discussions with various airlines regarding potential alliances, both for Qantas and Jetstar, and we don't comment on those discussions.

"When Qantas has something to announce, we announce it."


Read more: Qantas and Emirates to ink partnership deal | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/qantas-and-emirates-to-ink-partnership-deal/story-e6frfq80-1226465555243#ixzz25a3ai5Ws)

Mstr Caution
5th Sep 2012, 08:31
Amazing how much things can change in a year.

This quite from Alan Joyce on ABC 7:30 Report 16/8/2011

"I'm all about being positive about Qantas, being positive about the brand and making sure that Qantas grows into the future. We need the Union Leaders to realize change is needed. If they keep on resisting change and have Qantas as an inefficient carrier competing AGAINST Middle Eastern carriers and the Asian carriers, we won't have a Qantas"

Since then, AJ's grounded the airline, withdrawn B744 routes from London & potentially other international services from Adeleide & Perth. Cancelled the order for the B787 & it looks like he's entering commercial agreements with the feared ME carriers.

sunnySA
5th Sep 2012, 09:02
Sydney, 05 September 2012
A next generation Boeing 737-800 aircraft has become the 115th new aircraft to join the Qantas Group fleet in the past four years.
Qantas Domestic Chief Executive Officer Lyell Strambi said Qantas was continuing to roll out new initiatives to ensure Qantas remained the airline of choice for domestic travellers.
“Qantas is delighted to welcome yet another next-generation Boeing aircraft into our fleet,” Mr Strambi said.
“The Qantas Group now has 60 B737-800s of which 22 feature on-demand, touch screen in-flight entertainment from Panasonic for all passengers and spacious seats including leather seats in Business.
"These aircraft are extremely popular and feature on a variety of routes right across the Qantas Domestic and trans-Tasman network.
“Along with our network, frequency and lounges, we know that modern aircraft with the latest technology are a major attraction for our passengers.
"Another 10 next-generation Boeing 737-800s, with the Boeing Sky Interior, will join the Qantas fleet in the next 18 months."
The aircraft has been named Leeton after the town in New South Wales.
Qantas has recently announced a number of initiatives including three-daily services between Sydney and Gold Coast, increased capacity to Tasmania and Canberra, and a refresh of the interiors of a number of Boeing 767 aircraft which includes an iPad with inflight entertainment for all passengers in Business and Economy.
Features of the latest 737-800 aircraft include:
* A 12 seat business class and 156 seat economy class configuration
* New seating design styled by Marc Newson
* On-demand Panasonic inflight entertainment in both cabins with over 300 entertainment options
* Seat-to-seat "chat" messaging
* Wide seat-back design with a 37 inch seat pitch and 22 inch width between arms in Business and a 17 inch width and 30 inch seat pitch in Economy, ergonomic cushions and adjustable headrest
* 10.6 inch in arm touch screen in business, nine inch seatback touch screen in economy
* PC and USB ports to facilitate computers, MP3 players and other technology.

QF94
5th Sep 2012, 11:12
dizzylizzy wrote:
Does it really require AJ to be there? I mean with Hickey CEO of int now, wouldn't he be the man of the show?

No it doesn't, but when QANTAS International eventually fails, it will be Hickey who takes the fall, not AJ. This was just extra padding for AJ's fall, not that he wanted to turn QANTAS International around and make it more profitable, just to use Hickey as a shield for the bullet.

Romulus
5th Sep 2012, 13:38
On the other hand if Hickey can genuinely pull off significant improvement then he leapfrogs the others to become #1 contender to take over the whole lot. He got international to demonstrate his operational capability, do that, improve international's position, improve return on assets etc and he either gets the big job at Qantas or he can write his own ticket elsewhere.

SOPS
5th Sep 2012, 14:57
So I assume..at least for today..all quiet on the eastern front?

Sprite
5th Sep 2012, 20:33
Article in Financial Review this morning claims:
- Alliance, or code share announced today with alliance being announced later on
- Frankfurt gone
- JV with BA ended
- Flights to Europe re-routed through Dubai instead of Singapore.

peuce
5th Sep 2012, 21:01
So it's not my imagination that QF is getting queezier and squeezier!

* Wide seat-back design with a 37 inch seat pitch and 22 inch width between arms in Business and a 17 inch width and 30 inch seat pitch in Economy

Whereas, according to Seat Guru, Virgin Australia provides the following in its 800s:

Business Class: 38.0" 19.5"
Economy Class: 31.0 - 33.0" 18.8"

I wonder if QF can eventually break the 30" barrier and take us into the 20s.

Talk about winning hearts and minds ... not!

markis10
5th Sep 2012, 21:43
Adding another ten seats into the 717s will probably see sub 30! And a new record for that type re capacity!

Captain Gidday
5th Sep 2012, 22:01
So it's not my imagination that QF is getting queezier and squeezier!

Quote:
* Wide seat-back design with a 37 inch seat pitch and 22 inch width between arms in Business and a 17 inch width and 30 inch seat pitch in Economy

Not surprising, really. The layout is signed off on by small people who never have to sit in them.

The The
5th Sep 2012, 22:03
I think you'll find the QF seats are slightly thinner and to me, actually appear a bit more roomier.

Also DJ have a config of 8/168. QF is 12/156. DJ has less storage (no fwd coat locker I recall) and I wonder where they manage to fit all the emergency equipment as QF appear to have more equipment storage lockers forward? dog boxes perhaps or the overheads?

With less locker space and 8 more pax, finding a place for all the hand luggage must be an art in itself on a full flight.

73to91
5th Sep 2012, 22:23
Article in Financial Review this morning claims:
- Alliance, or code share announced today with alliance being announced later on
- Frankfurt gone
- JV with BA ended
- Flights to Europe re-routed through Dubai
instead of Singapore.


So if the JV with BA has gone, it will cost 'international' more money now, no doubt, to break the contracts with BA especially taking the slots at LHR back.

But thinking about how it could work ;)

QF had the HKG & BKK - LHR slots so would it make sense to take 1 back, say AUS-DXB-LHR and give the other to Emirates and retain the SIN-LHR?

Gives all European travellers a stop in DXB and change to Emirates with no back tracking from LHR. Might mean a MEL & SYD - DXB service with 1 going on to LHR.

Will have 3 LHR services 1 via DXB & 2 via SIN because they'll still want the connections via SIN for JQ Asian services.

Wonderworld
5th Sep 2012, 22:59
Media event at 1000 this morning then journos being taken to the airport for photo op with the 2 A380s.

Livs Hairdresser
5th Sep 2012, 23:05
Assume the position ......

Bagus
5th Sep 2012, 23:06
This alliance will cost how many jobs,Aussie traveller hates if this cost many job losses.AJ have punish enough of qantas and it's staff.

Jack Ranga
5th Sep 2012, 23:24
This alliance will cost how many Australians' their jobs? Aussie travellers hate it if Australians in the airline industry lose their jobs. The non-Australian, LCC gimp has created enough pain for Qantas and its staff.

Is that what you meant?

Twin Beech
5th Sep 2012, 23:32
Works for me. Perhaps add some scatalogical invective. :ok:

Mstr Caution
5th Sep 2012, 23:50
The equivalent in management speak is:

The jobs are gone in Australia, a deal with Emirates has nothing to do with job losses in Australia. The restructuring processes are independent, however the current restructuring will provide jOb opportunities for Australians in Asia & the Middle East.

73to91
6th Sep 2012, 00:05
10 Year agreement,
Daily A380 SYD-DXB-LHR & MEL-DXB-LHR,
FF's programs aligned,

Fonz121
6th Sep 2012, 00:12
"So when you buy an Italian suit in David Jones you will get points that will count towards wearing that suit in Milan, Barcelona or Venice". - He knows Barcelona isn't in Italy right?

So all flights north are via Dubai now? I take it Qantas frames will be going no further than Dubai?

sunnySA
6th Sep 2012, 00:12
Sydney, 06 September 2012
Qantas and Emirates today announced a new global aviation partnership that
will give their customers a seamless Australian and international network, exclusive frequent flyer benefits and
world-class travel experiences.1
Under the agreement signed this morning by Emirates President Tim Clark and Qantas Group CEO Alan
Joyce, Qantas will move its hub for European flights to Dubai and enter an extensive commercial relationship
with Emirates.
The 10-year partnership will go beyond codesharing and includes integrated network collaboration with
coordinated pricing, sales and scheduling as well as a benefit-sharing model. Neither airline will take equity in the other.
Qantas will launch daily A380 services from both Sydney and Melbourne to London via Dubai, meaning that
together Emirates and Qantas will offer 98 weekly services between Australia and Dubai. Qantas will be the
only other airline operating to Terminal 3 and the new purpose-built A380 concourse at Dubai International Airport.
The partnership will give Qantas customers one-stop access to more than 70 Emirates destinations in Europe,
the Middle East and Africa. For Emirates customers it will open up Qantas’ Australian domestic network of
more than 50 destinations and 5,000 flights per week. The carriers will also coordinate on their services
between Australia and New Zealand and services between Australia and South East Asia.
The Emirates and Qantas frequent flyer programs will be aligned, giving customers expanded opportunities to
earn and redeem points. Emirates and Qantas will provide reciprocal access to tier status benefits including end-to-end customer recognition, lounge access, priority check-in and boarding and other exclusive services.
Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce said the partnership would deliver unprecedented benefits to Qantas
customers and mark a decisive step forward in the Group’s strategy.
“Emirates is the ideal partner for Qantas,” Mr Joyce said. “It has a wonderful brand, a modern fleet, an uncompromising approach to quality and it flies to the A-list of international destinations.
“This is the most significant partnership the Qantas Group has ever formed with another airline, moving past
the traditional alliance model to a new level. It will deliver benefits to all parts of the Group.
“As the world’s largest international airline, with a network that perfectly complements our own, Emirates will
help us give our customers across Australia a dramatically expanded range of travel options.
“Together with Emirates, Qantas will provide a unique ‘one stop’ hub service, as well as deeply integrated
frequent flyer and customer benefits.
“The partnership delivers on all four pillars of the Qantas Group’s international strategy: it will see us fly to the
global gateway city of Dubai, provide some of the world’s best travel experiences through both Qantas and
Emirates, improve our network in Asia, and, crucially, help build a strong Qantas International business for the
long term.
“There will be considerable benefits for the broader economy as we collaborate with industry to drive more
inbound trade and tourism.
1 All stated characteristics of the partnership are subject to regulatory approval.
“I very much look forward to working with Tim and everyone at Emirates as we develop this exciting,
transformative partnership.”
“The time was right to develop a long-term partnership with Qantas, the iconic Australian airline,” said Tim Clark, President of Emirates.
“Since our first flights began in 1996, Australia has long been a popular destination for Emirates leisure and
business travellers, making it one of the top three destinations in our network.
“By establishing this partnership we are providing our passengers with additional connectivity in Australia and
the region, the ability to utilise reciprocal frequent flyer benefits and access to premium lounges and travel
experiences.”
The airlines will submit an application for interim authorisation to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) in order to begin commercial planning. Subject to regulatory approval, it is anticipated
that the partnership will commence in April 2013.
Broader Qantas network changes
Qantas will restructure its Asian network to strengthen its focus on services to and within the region.
“We currently have an Asian flying schedule based on travelling via Asia to Europe,” Mr Joyce said. “But our Australian business customers want better access to Asia, and we have been looking to address this for some
time.”
“With European services transiting through Dubai, Qantas’ Asian services will no longer be a subsidiary of the
‘Kangaroo Route’. Instead they will be dedicated to connecting Australians with our region, and Asian visitors to Australia.
“We will increase dedicated capacity to Singapore and re-time flights to Singapore and Hong Kong to enable
more ‘same day’ connections across Asia. We believe this will significantly improve the economics of our Asian operations.”
Qantas will also withdraw from the Singapore-Frankfurt route. While this service has been underperforming for some time, and withdrawal was inevitable, the partnership with Emirates will enable it to take place with
minimal impact on Qantas customers.

bubble.head
6th Sep 2012, 00:24
The media release is on the Qantas' website now.

About Qantas - Media Room - Media Releases - Qantas, Emirates announce global aviation partnership (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/media-releases/sep-2012/5440/global/en)

The way I've read it, it indicates it is an onward service to London but it does not say anything regarding Frankfurt.

Also Qantas and IAG joint business is terminated.

AEROMEDIC
6th Sep 2012, 00:28
How many Qantas jobs will this cost?

It may be beneficial to get better access to Europe but NO amount of spin will cover up that there will be job losses with duplication.

Is this better fro the Qantas brand?..... marginally, but customer trust is an asset that takes years to build up and a grounding to destroy in one day.
Joyce must live in a vacuum if he thinks that it will come back in a flurry with this deal.

Emirates customers must be thinking "Will I be happy on a Qantas flight?".

I would like to think that there are real benefits to Qantas staff with this deal, but I think that there is going to be more fear than favours.

What strikes me as curious was the fact that emerged at the end of the Emirates statement that the agreement was signed only 30 minutes before the press conference.

Capt_SNAFU
6th Sep 2012, 00:28
Frankfurt Gone!

Mstr Caution
6th Sep 2012, 00:28
There are TWO BIG benefits in the deal.

1. As expected EK gets it's hands on the cash in the Qantas Frequent Flyer Program, allowing passengers to redeem their points on the EK network.

2. Allows Qantas pilots the opportunity to experience Dubai, such that in the event Joyce totally screws International. Pilots can swing by and hand deliver an application on a Dubai lay over.

Mstr Caution
6th Sep 2012, 00:30
What strikes me as curious was the fact that emerged at the end of the Emirates statement that the agreement was signed only 30 minutes before the press conference.

Joyce is under the pump. The Shareholder AGM is only 2 months away.

maggot
6th Sep 2012, 00:34
2. Allows Qantas pilots the opportunity to experience Dubai, such that in the event Joyce totally screws International. Pilots can swing by and hand deliver an application on a Dubai lay over.

It's sad, that was my first thought...:ugh:

AEROMEDIC
6th Sep 2012, 00:35
I wonder what this idiot gave away at the last minute to get the document signed.
:ugh:

Bagus
6th Sep 2012, 00:36
There was nothing about how many more aircraft and jobs will go.

73to91
6th Sep 2012, 00:38
If it was the right time to cut the partnership with his cousin Willie and Emirates are not picking up any of the LHR slots, why not take the slots back from BA?

Bypass ratio
6th Sep 2012, 00:39
.....the Pacific is coming for EK

Mstr Caution
6th Sep 2012, 00:42
CEO insight debate - YouTube

Tim Clark on airline alliances at 35:15

AJ shouldn't get too much credit for the deal. As Richard Quest infers, AJ's dreaming of some sort of Utopian airline future.

Tim Clarks the dude with the vision as to how the new world alliances will develop.

Bazzamundi
6th Sep 2012, 00:45
More 400's gone. JQ to take up most Asian flying. Token mainline services to Sin and Hkg. BKK ops to JQ later this year. QF premium to Bkk is now on an EK 777.

Adl and Per international flying gone.

Tasman services revamped. EK will again win there.

More to come out but due to EK's focus on brand value, they did not want negative headlines re job losses announced today and then associated with them.

If EK didn't do the deal, it really didn't matter to them. The village idiot was the most desperate to do the deal. Cost him a fortune though.

DEFCON4
6th Sep 2012, 00:50
Joyce supplied the KY to get the deal over the line.On sale at Coles apparently

Going Nowhere
6th Sep 2012, 00:51
A win for SQ too, now they're going to be the only ones flying the A380 from SYD/MEL-SIN.

:ugh:

SandyPalms
6th Sep 2012, 00:52
With the Europe services going to a "longer sector" first format. I'd assume that LHR would be operated by a 2 man crew. What will the effect be on S/O numbers?

Bazzamundi
6th Sep 2012, 01:04
There are lots of potential job losses but not mentioned today for publicity reasons.

Wait for the Asian route restructure.

Condition 1
6th Sep 2012, 01:06
I'm not sure Emirates would want to code share with Jetstar. Could this maybe, hopefully, mean QF actually increases Asian services? Am I dreamin'?.

goodonyamate
6th Sep 2012, 01:06
IF there are any redundancies, anyone who thinks it will be done on pure seniority is kidding themselves.

It will be interesting after the dust settles, perhaps an increase in QF flights to Asia????

And what of jitconnict? With code shareing on the Tasman, surely this frees up the 737s to come back to mainline

Jack Ranga
6th Sep 2012, 01:18
“Emirates is the ideal partner for Qantas,” Mr Joyce said. “It has a wonderful brand, a modern fleet, an uncompromising approach to quality and it flies to the A-list of international destinations.

So.........after moaning like a whiny little 4 foot tall bitch about the un-fair advantage Emirates has, subsidised fuel blah, blah, blah now the sun shines out their arse?

Has this man any integrity left? Did he have any in the first place? I feel sorry for any Qantas employee that has to be led by this fool..........

laterron
6th Sep 2012, 01:19
Once again QF looking after the other half of the country who do not live in Sydney or Melbourne.
I guess that leaves Cayhay or SQ to pick up the trash.

Bagus
6th Sep 2012, 01:21
The Flying Kangaroo also canceled orders for 35 Boeing jets as high fuel costs and industrial action hammered its bottom line.
*AJ hates union as he kept blaming the union especially th ALAEA.he will be punishing the engineers more.

Bagus
6th Sep 2012, 01:26
A380 won't go to Manila for maintenance,it wii be in Dubai,qantas will set up maintenance there with cheap labour and get rid of engineering staff in Sydney.

DJ737
6th Sep 2012, 01:31
Interesting to note on the qantasandemirates.com website that B777's are refered to as "state of the art" airliners and not old technology airplanes that Mr Joyce has previously stated. :rolleyes:

Jethro Gibbs
6th Sep 2012, 01:35
Next Step . Let the Sackings Begin.

A. Le Rhone
6th Sep 2012, 01:36
Ranga: So.........after moaning like a whiny little 4 foot tall bitch about the un-fair advantage Emirates has, subsidised fuel blah, blah, blah now the sun shines out their arse?

Funniest and most accurate post so far. Exactly!

Qantas management didn't have to begin a new enterprise, they were GIVEN a full airline, a sound network, a simple and efficient fleet structure, fully trained employees and a world-class brand.

In the space of 15 years these Boston School bastions of free enterprise cocked it up monumentally. Plain stuffed.

Then they bitched and moaned about the "unfair advantage" other airlines have (hypocrisy 101) when they had it in the first place!

And now this!

What a bunch of two-faced, whiney, self-serving numskulls. If it didn't have so many implications for those of us employed in the industry (unable to leave to sell face cream etc) it would be very funny but its just a damn disgrace.

ozbiggles
6th Sep 2012, 01:45
So when does jetstar sort flying to Dubai?
This guy is good
A rushed agreement 4 years late, he should be the PM.
Emirates doesn't want to put any money into Qantas.
Joyce won't answer questions on jobs. I tink it tis a top jay for Qantas....

Alien Role
6th Sep 2012, 01:56
"And with code sharing on the Tasman, surely this frees up 737's to return to mainline".......

....with NZ crews ??

Role on..

astroboy55
6th Sep 2012, 01:59
Scabstar wont be going to dubai...

The way i read it, there is an emphasis on growing asia for the BUSINESS traveller. Hopefully that means these increased asian services will be flown by QF metal. And hopefully mainline will get some of its 737's back.

Surely someone smarter than me has a rough estimate on the effect on pilot numbers, given the withdrawal from FRA.

Kremin?

deadcut
6th Sep 2012, 02:04
And hopefully no NZ crews will lose their jobs :)

DirectAnywhere
6th Sep 2012, 02:08
Astroboy, back of the envelope I reckon it's four aircraft required to service Frankfurt daily. With approximately seven crew per aircraft it's a further about 100 pilots surplus to requirements.

Going Nowhere
6th Sep 2012, 02:22
Not to mention the BNE, ADL, PER pax that will now have to endure EK's Cramped Y class if they want to go on a QF codeshare to Europe! :(

astroboy55
6th Sep 2012, 02:26
Cheers DA...

I guess some of those folks on LWOP wont be coming back!!

If the numbers are correct and they need to get rid of that many people (which given the age demographic/people approaching retirement etc i dont think they will), how can the company really do it on raw seniority?? The cost would be crippling. Redundancy payouts, plus pretty much 1/2 744, 1/2 380 so's gone, most 330 SO's gone, all Perth 737 FO gone, some MEL 737 FO gone....not to mention retraining to fill any vacancies from RIN/demotions etc.....I really dont see how anyone can think they are protected by the award.:eek:

AEROMEDIC
6th Sep 2012, 02:30
It wasn't a deal until 30 minutes before the press conference.
Can you imagine what Joyce was doing just before the signing.?

This tosser would have given away his vitals to save from being embarrassed by announcing there was NO signing.

Romulus
6th Sep 2012, 02:41
So.........after moaning like a whiny little 4 foot tall bitch about the un-fair advantage Emirates has, subsidised fuel blah, blah, blah now the sun shines out their arse?

If you can join them and get the advantages why not.

On the surface I have to say I like what this offers me as a customer. I can get to Dubai via QF 380 and then anywhere in the Emirates network on Emirates standard aircraft.

That's serious competition to the Virgin/SIA offering.

Funny how that sounds.

Qantas is now competitive with Virgin/SIA.

bddbism
6th Sep 2012, 02:57
I think the most important thing to note here is, staff travel business seats just got a whole lot smaller.

32megapixels
6th Sep 2012, 03:05
I have not signed onto Pprune for about 12 months and funnily enough looked into my private messages that I had missed. These messages were largely inregards to Qantas recruitment and the LOI to employ I had. Hmm, a while ago!!

I would have loved to have joined many of you on the A380 or B747. Instead I sit down the back on staff traveland punish a red or two!

Anyway, right now sitting up the front of the q400 isn't so bad, except we are being paid like a bunch of peasants as a reward for bringing in huge profits for this group. It is suggested that it is about 10-20k per sector when our load factor is at 80%. Not bad considering we have 25 of them doing 5-7sectors a day!

QantasLink is still a stepping stone with no prospect at achieving further career development at the moment. Once you tick certain boxes, it is the same thing for most of us. Look for another job – Virgin!

I hope that Emirates can offer some opportunities for those of you that may be affected by this. If they could change their approach and open an Australian based hub with transfers to Emirates for Qantas pilots that would be a huge benefit to all.

In my view, aviation in this country is a very frustrating career! One which we love and wouldn't give away (well that’s not true.. I have seen it at the Link), but a few more opportunities for us Australians would be nice.

Can somebody remind me how many registered container ships are Australian these days? Is it like 5!

Something tells me in this globalised world our uncompetitive tax system in this country will be the catalyst for decline to the airline industry as we know it.

Australia is its own worst enemy on the global stage and as long as our tax system continues to screw companies like Qantas, opportunities to fly for the iconic brand will continue to deteriorate.



Every time I go to Longreach I shed a tear!

Oxidant
6th Sep 2012, 03:05
On the surface I have to say I like what this offers me as a customer. I can get to Dubai via QF 380 and then anywhere in the Emirates network on Emirates standard aircraft.


How is that a plus when you can already do the whole trip with Emirates in more comfort (J & F) for less $ and they pick you up & drop you off at both ends?

I hope that Emirates can offer some opportunitiesfor those of you that may be affected by this. If they could change theirapproach and open an Australian based hub with transfers to Emirates for Qantaspilots that would be a huge benefit to all.


Hell will freeze over first!:hmm:

hadagutfull
6th Sep 2012, 03:05
Asia is supposed to be where the growth is yet we are pulling the 380 out of Asia? And FRA!!! Oh noooo there goes Oktoberfest and my sky recovery bed....:yuk:

Romulus
6th Sep 2012, 03:26
How is that a plus when you can already do the whole trip with Emirates in more comfort (J & F) for less $ and they pick you up & drop you off at both ends?

That's a fair call. If I can fly QF on their new aircraft (A380 or 787 when they eventually arrive) for the same $ I will. Must admit I hadn't thought of there being a price differential, I'd even put up with a small (around $100 or so) differential to fly QF, any more than that and they're just taking the piss.

600ft-lb
6th Sep 2012, 03:29
EK is getting a huge benefit out of this. Access to 8.6million frequent flyers and their points redeemable in cash to EK!

If there was no benefit to them I couldn't see them doing this out of pure charity for QF.

The The
6th Sep 2012, 03:32
Joyce on Sky Business stated they hope to maintain jobs in the medium to long term. Short term a lot of pain it would appear.

kimir
6th Sep 2012, 03:49
Hey Romulus, virgin have a partnership with Etihad too.

Jack Ranga
6th Sep 2012, 04:09
If you can join them and get the advantages why not.

I'm talking about the integrity of the little gimp, not whether or not the tie up makes good business sense etc :ok:

donpizmeov
6th Sep 2012, 04:33
I know EK could not make a case for the 380 to fly BKK/SIN to oz due to loads. I wonder if this new code share will change that?
QF pilots start practicing saying BUBIN and DESDI, as you will get to spend a lot of time there, just as we all do.

The Don

FlyEmirates777
6th Sep 2012, 04:42
Can Qantas move its Frankfurt service to Berlin via DXB?

T-Vasis
6th Sep 2012, 04:45
Qantas and Emirates (http://www.qantasandemirates.com/index.html)

Offchocks
6th Sep 2012, 05:04
Can Qantas move its Frankfurt service to Berlin via DXB?

My assumption is since we are dropping FRA, we will not be going anywhere in Germany.

crewmeal
6th Sep 2012, 05:07
Just wait until Richard Branson starts moaning. He'll claim it's unfair competition and try to appeal to some authority somewhere. Meanwhile the Beeb's take on the news. Not very exciting.

BBC News - Qantas forms Emirates alliance as it seeks turnaround (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19498374)

Wedcue
6th Sep 2012, 05:14
Ok, so EK and QF tie up in some capacity, they are talking 90 plus flights per week... Sure, FRA has been cut from the network, but how many flights per week we're there to Germany?

By cutting Singapore out of the equation, and only going via Dubai, my question is, are there more flights now for QF or less... It appears there are more flights, has someone crunched the numbers? I only ask because, the tie up was announced, and QF are not just dropping off in Dubai, they are taking pax to London.. That's good news right? Social media and here gives the impression jobs will go.. Why?

Ollie Onion
6th Sep 2012, 05:36
Not sure of the exact schedule but I am pretty sure that Qantas do a daily to LHR through Singapore and Bangkok and also up to Frankfurt so changing to just a daily from SYD and MEL to LHR seems like a capacity downsize to me.

Baileys
6th Sep 2012, 05:39
I still don't get it. Why not just jump on an emirates flight from anywhere in Australia to go anywhere in the world via Dubai. Why go with Qantas anywhere international - especially to Dubai. My common sense says I don't really understand how this makes Qantas any more useful to passengers at all. It just seems that they are giving in to the competition instead. I would have thought they would be better off just pulling the pin all together on international rather than flying around the Bubin hold with Emirates from Australian ports above and below them.

hotnhigh
6th Sep 2012, 05:42
And of course there is no ongoing debt problems on the horizon for Dubai.

hadagutfull
6th Sep 2012, 05:47
Qanta... Sand.... Emirates.com???
Co incidence ?

Captain Gidday
6th Sep 2012, 05:59
It wasn't a deal until 30 minutes before the press conference.

Not true. Why, people have been hard at work on this deal for days, at least.

1A_Please
6th Sep 2012, 06:16
I don't really understand how this makes Qantas any more useful to passengers at all. It just seems that they are giving in to the competition instead.

It doesn't make QF anymore useful. It is more about locking in your loyalty through QF Frequent Flyer. There are now more places to earn and burn QF points so QF hopes you'll continue to fly with them domestically and to the USA. It is not about growing what we used to know as QF Int'l at all.

fringhtok
6th Sep 2012, 06:17
I think there is more to this than was announced. Simply switching the hub to Dubai from Singapore doesn't accomplish the sort of numbers that AJ was talking about. I smell a dying rat. I don't think all the flights continuing to LHR from DXB are going to be QF.......... The announcement is very thin on details and everyone seems to be assuming QF keeps going because the press release insinuates that. I'm not so sure.

73to91
6th Sep 2012, 06:26
Will the CUP be renamed, The Emirates/QANTAS Melbourne Cup?

Will AJ present the cup this year (on behalf of the partnership) to HRH?

Toruk Macto
6th Sep 2012, 06:27
The setup looks good from a managements perspective ! Emirates is now a option for everything Qantas does internationally , Qantas can run the numbers on all their flights and as soon as they can make more using Emirates they just gift the route to them and codeshare it back ie LHR . Can't see Qantas give up LHR slots ever !

Dagger
6th Sep 2012, 06:51
So with Frankfurt gone, and the change to London's, that 80 mainline pilot surplus would now be more like 200 (not including the 150 on LWOP). I wonder how long now until they start offering redundancies.

Baileys
6th Sep 2012, 07:18
So does this mean you can "burn" Qantas FF points on a "Qantas" flight to Europe via Dubai - with the Dubai to Europe bit being flown by Emirates. I would have guessed that the 'arabs' would say that is a big negative.

jportzer
6th Sep 2012, 07:23
So does this mean you can "burn" Qantas FF points on a "Qantas" flight to Europe via Dubai - with the Dubai to Europe bit being flown by Emirates. I would have guessed that the 'arabs' would say that is a big negative.
Um, I think you misunderstand how FF points work. When a Qantas frequent-flyer spends points on an Emirates flight, that means CASH transfers out of the Qantas Frequent Flyer program and into the hands of Emirates. It's just like selling a seat, except that now Qantas does the marketing and administers the program; Emirates gets the money and more people in their planes.

SOPS
6th Sep 2012, 07:25
QF FF points are like a cash cow to EK. EK basically gets paid by QF to fill up otherwise empty seats.

Mstr Caution
6th Sep 2012, 07:29
That's it. Like I've been saying for the last few days. EK have only been interested in the pot of gold which is QF Frequent Flyer.

Excluding the by product of pilot establishment numbers within Qantas. The one big ticket item is the product offering within Europe. Qantas has been constrained operating to Heathrow & Franfurt only.

The next best thing for Qantas CUSTOMERS, if Qantas couldn't offer a half decent European network itself. They had to get into bed within an airline that does.

AEROMEDIC
6th Sep 2012, 07:31
Qantas is now competitive with Virgin/SIA.

Look how they got there.... and what they will be doing soon. The maintenance will be slowly but surely farmed off to Emirates. The spin will be "needs of business.... no capability in Australia (which they will ensure by closing down Avalon and, in time, Brisbane).

It's a sad testimony to "success" and Joyce and co. won't stop there either.
Pilots will be hit along with cabin staff as cheaper "alternatives" emerge.

Who is it that can say that they have immunity from the changes that will subtly take place.

There may be good things for the customers in flight routing and available destinations, but there is a price to pay in the end. The price won't be paid by customers, it'll be paid by Qantas employees in all classifications.

QF94
6th Sep 2012, 07:41
Um, I think you misunderstand how FF points work. When a Qantas frequent-flyer spends points on an Emirates flight, that means CASH transfers out of the Qantas Frequent Flyer program and into the hands of Emirates. It's just like selling a seat, except that now Qantas does the marketing and administers the program; Emirates gets the money and more people in their planes.

That's a two-way street. Passengers will be able to earn and redeem points on both QANTAS and Emirates, so my QANTAS FF newsletter tells me as of 5 minutes ago.

QF94
6th Sep 2012, 07:44
There may be good things for the customers in flight routing and available destinations, but there is a price to pay in the end. The price won't be paid by customers, it'll be paid by Qantas employees in all classifications.

And not just QANTAS employees. There's the knock-on effect from out of work employees that can't afford to keep up their lifestyle, or move overseas where the work is, ultimately affecting other businesses here.

TIMA9X
6th Sep 2012, 07:53
Always good to watch the live announcements again at a later time, the body language for me shows AJ was "tickled pink" that he was actually making the announcement. For me, the deal makes sense, well sort of, when I think about it, there was not many other alternatives left for them at Q..

I can't help thinking, all this was inspired by JB over at Virgin. Today's announcement was the first sort of positive news since AJ took control. It took him four years to come up with this plan... err, "can't beat them, join them" out of desperation.. I sensed the relief with the body language displayed by AJ in this clip....


bXp6qUjrfvY

Livs Hairdresser
6th Sep 2012, 08:23
So up until now QF's last few remaining FFs have been continuing to fly Qantas to either accumulate more points or use the points they've earned. Now the handcuffs are off and they can burn those points on EK, with a commensurate amount of revenue leaving the QF group. What percentage of those FFs will never fly Qantas again? In fact, unless their destination is London, QF is forcing them to fly EK. Why would they even bother flying Qantas from Oz to Dubai when it would be much more seamless to go EK all the way.

QF94, I hear what you're saying about it being a 2 way street. The only problem is that the EK network dwarfs the QF network, and even more so day by day. Who will be getting the lion's share of the FF revenue? Will it be EK carrying Qantas FFs on ULH sectors, or Qantas carrying EK FFs on the odd short domestic hop? Blind Freddy can see that this agreement is a free kick for Emirates and I honestly don't see how we can ever recover from it.

Baileys
6th Sep 2012, 08:31
OK so it's just another typical Australian corporate sell out. QF international is gone.

buttmonkey1
6th Sep 2012, 08:37
Tim Clarks body language was interesting at 1:50,
like his hand had been soiled. Totally understandable.

Mstr Caution
6th Sep 2012, 08:43
TIMA9X:

Wouldn't be like AJ to F&#$ up an announcement would it !!

At 4:21 in the video AJ announces a "new era" with 14 daily QANTAS operated services from ADL, BNE, MEL, PER & SYD to Dubai.

He then corrects himself to "codeshare" services.

So, AJ's whats the real plan?

goodonyamate
6th Sep 2012, 08:45
From Joyces speech.....

"qantas will operate 2 A-tree 80 services a day to terminal tree, the only terminal in the world dedicated to the A-tree 80, meaning its just one stop to turty tree european destinations"

Must suck to be Joyces speech writer. I bet he/she also wishes we had the triple 7 or the 747-8. Anyone think they might have seen a good opportunity to take the piss?

So......on these increased qantas services to asia. Qantas 787-8??:ok:

TIMA9X
6th Sep 2012, 09:01
At 4:21 in the video AJ announces a "new era" with 14 daily QANTAS operated services from ADL, BNE, MEL, PER & SYD to Dubai.

He then corrects himself to "codeshare" services.

So, AJ's whats the real plan?

Spot on mate.... yeah, it appears AJ doesn't quite have Tim Clark's plan in his head yet.. :E

Stalins ugly Brother
6th Sep 2012, 09:15
This "deal" is about FF points, frequent and business travellers and a quality product with a global reach.

This deal has nothing to do with Jetstar and I bet any attempts by Joyce to push Jetstar down the throats of Emirates passengers will result in the deal being terminated.

God knows our passengers aren't tolerating it anymore and have left in droves.

I think this could be the end of the Jetstar empire, however I believe the 787s will be based with Qantas colours in Singapore on a stand alone contract. And I wouldn't be surprised to see Jetstar Int A320s re-painted in QF colours flown by the Jetsar guys.

As I said I can possibly see the end of Jetstar, but not the end of their staff and contract agreements.

I think the MOU needs to be widened quickly! :eek:

SOPS
6th Sep 2012, 09:26
EK is all about Brand, Brand, Brand...and they protect it like a lioness protects her cubs. There is no way they will have anything to do with Jetstar...and I would think that TC would have already made that clear.

ferris
6th Sep 2012, 09:31
It does make you wonder.

Check this thread, from 2009 http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/391817-qantas-middle-east-why-not.html and my contribution What, exactly, did Dixon do over the last few years to defend QF and "it's turf"? Does Qf even carry as many people out of oz now as the ME carriers? I can't see how, when you count EK, etihad, and the ever expanding Qatar. Sure, Qf cannot compete with the on-carriage to the large networks beyond the ME, but what was done to try and carry the pax at least to the ME hubs? An early alliance with EK would've been genius, but why wasn't some forward thinking employed by the extremely highly paid Qf managers to stem the onslaught (an early ETD or QR agreement?) Qf carries them to the ME hub, then the partner from there thru the extensive network beyond.

Too much SY-LHR dinosaur thinking? Where does it leave Qf? Looking like a real one trick (orange) pony, now. I'll do the job for less, say, 4 million. :hmm:

Although I think this move is the right one, given the state QF has been driven into, I think the ramifications for QF employees are all bad. Everyone keeps assuming that these QF flights to/from DXB are going to be operated by QF pilots. The engineers appear to see the writing on the wall.

sierra5913
6th Sep 2012, 09:39
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

FREQUENT FLYER
1. Can I earn points on all Emirates and Qantas flights?

Qantas Frequent Flyers can earn points on all Emirates flights. Emirates Skywards
members can earn points on Qantas international flights and domestic sectors of an
international trip.

2. Can I use points to redeem award flights on Emirates and Qantas flights?

Yes, Qantas Frequent Flyers and Emirates Skywards members will be able to use
their points (or miles) on either network.

3. Can I use my Qantas Frequent Flyer points on Emirates flights now?

No. The frequent flyer agreement between Emirates and Qantas won’t take effect
until the partnership commences in 2013 subject to regulatory approval.

4. Will my tier status be recognised if I’m flying on an Emirates service?
Yes. Both Qantas and Emirates will recognise members of each others frequent flyer
programs throughout the entire journey, regardless of which airline you are flying
with.


FLIGHT NETWORK
5. Will Qantas still fly to Asia?

Yes. Previously our services to Singapore and Hong Kong were timed to optimise
travel through to Europe. We will retime our existing services to Singapore and Hong
Kong offering an improved schedule dedicated to better meet the needs of the Asia
market.

6. Will Qantas still fly to London?

Yes. Qantas will fly daily from both Sydney and Melbourne to London via the global
gateway of Dubai. The new partnership will also allow us to codeshare flights from
Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth directly to Dubai.

BAGGAGE
8. Will there be any differences between baggage policies on Emirates and
Qantas?

No. The baggage policy on all codeshare flights will be the same on both airlines as
part of creating a seamless customer experience.

9. Will frequent flyers be offered additional checked baggage allowances?

Yes. Qantas Frequent Flyers and Qantas Club Members will continue to benefit from
extra allowances according to their membership status and cabin travelled when
travelling on both Qantas and Emirates.

TICKETING
10. How do I book a flight from Australia to Dubai on Qantas and then from
Dubai to Europe on Emirates?

Customers will be able to book flights with either carrier via the Emirates or Qantas
website or through their travel agent, depending on which option and flight schedule
suits them best.

11. If I buy a ticket on qantas.com how will I know who I’ll ultimately be flying
with?

The airline that you will be flying with will be confirmed during the booking process
as currently occurs.

12. What does this mean if I am flying internationally before April 2013?

There is no change, no matter where you are flying.

13. If I am a Qantas customer flying internationally from April 2013 onwards,
what does this mean for my travel?

If you are flying to North or South America, South Africa, Japan, Bangkok, as well as
New Zealand, The Philippines, Jakarta, Hawaii, China or other Qantas codeshare
destinations you are not affected at all by these announcements.
If you are flying to Singapore or Hong Kong, your flights may have a different
departure and arrival time however you will still travel on the same day. We will
advise you directly of any time changes to your itinerary.
If you are travelling to the UK or Europe from April 2013, your flight will operate via
Dubai and then onward to your destination, subject to regulatory approval. Options will also be available for customers who would still like to travel via
Singapore or Hong Kong.

14. I have a flight booked after April 2013 for travel to London – what happens
to my booking?

Your travel to London will remain confirmed. Qantas will contact you to discuss your choice of transit options.

15. What if I want to transit through Asia?

Qantas and its codeshare partners will continue to offer a range of transit options throughout Asia.

17. I’m booked to fly to Singapore/Hong Kong in May and specifically wantedthe A380 – how will I be impacted?

Qantas will continue to operate A380 services to Hong Kong on Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. A380 flights that operated to Singapore will now operate to Dubai and onwards to London subject to regulatory approval. Customers booked on Singapore A380 services will be contacted by Qantas.

DUBAI AIRPORT EXPERIENCE
19. As a Qantas First or Business customer will I have priority check-in in Dubai?

Yes. Qantas First and Business customers, Platinum One, Platinum and Gold
Frequent Flyer members will have access to Emirates’ dedicated check-in counters at
Dubai Airport.

LOUNGE ACCESS
22. If I choose to fly with Emirates from Australia to Dubai, can I still use the
Qantas lounge at my departing airport in Australia?

Yes. If your class of travel or Frequent Flyer status gives you lounge access and both
lounges are available, you will be welcome in either the Qantas or Emirates Lounge.

23. As a Qantas Club member will I have access to Emirates lounges worldwide?

If you are travelling on Qantas, your lounge access will remain unchanged. If you are
flying with Emirates you will have access to the Emirates lounge in Dubai.

Higs
6th Sep 2012, 09:43
I dont work for Qantas and as an outsider. WTF??? QF is going down the freeway at 120KPH the wrong way!!!!
They move their Europe/Asia hub from Singapore (stable goverment, Jetstar Asia base & more importantly stable geo-political location) to Dubai (stable goverment with declining resources and a very unstable geo-political location).
I dont know what stuff you are smoking but Singapore Airlines are laughing their asses off at such self destruction.
Universities should use this as an example of what not to do...

hotnhigh
6th Sep 2012, 09:43
Lets get real, this has nothing to do with any long term solution to qantas' problem.
Alan Joyce and the board have yet again displayed any lack of vision for the airline. Their sole purpose is to have a short term bounce so that they can make some cash and get out.
IN ONE YEAR QANTAS OUTSOURCES 60% OF WESTERN HEMISPHERE FLYING.
How? HKG-LHR, BKK-LHR landing slots gifted to Emirates. FRA flights traded for zero.
What now if ek create a deal where qf passengers get complimentary membership of ek's scheme and a small amount of 'bonus' points in their account whenever they travel on ek burning qf points? Eventually no qf points but another passenger who has now changed carriers with no future return to qf beyond this point.
And what a great deal for the tasman. Emirates must get some great rates for hotels on both sides of the ditch to be able to kill off companies with employees living in the respective cities that will now be serviced almost exclusively by ek.
And all of this, done against a backdrop of a calamitous employee/employer relationship where true leadership could have produced a better outcome wrt the future of qf. Anything was possible, but that required honesty and integrity.
Tragic.

Romulus
6th Sep 2012, 09:54
So up until now QF's last few remaining FFs have been continuing to fly Qantas to either accumulate more points or use the points they've earned. Now the handcuffs are off and they can burn those points on EK, with a commensurate amount of revenue leaving the QF group. What percentage of those FFs will never fly Qantas again? In fact, unless their destination is London, QF is forcing them to fly EK. Why would they even bother flying Qantas from Oz to Dubai when it would be much more seamless to go EK all the way.

QF94, I hear what you're saying about it being a 2 way street. The only problem is that the EK network dwarfs the QF network, and even more so day by day. Who will be getting the lion's share of the FF revenue? Will it be EK carrying Qantas FFs on ULH sectors, or Qantas carrying EK FFs on the odd short domestic hop? Blind Freddy can see that this agreement is a free kick for Emirates and I honestly don't see how we can ever recover from it.

Most of those points are earned by people flying for business on tickets paid for by the business. Qantas buys wholesale seats from EK and pays that price in exchange for FF points earned on higher margin domestic flights. That's a win for QF and a smaller win for EK.

Even better for QF though are the points earned via various credit cards or merchants. Every point costs the merchant 1c or thereabouts. Let's say it takes 128,000 points return to Heathrow. That's $1,280 that has been paid via the merchants. Pretty much guaranteed QF pay EK less than that for a seat. Pure profit, all for keeping some electronic records about how many miles you fly.

And the best part is QF get the money as soon as those points are laoded into your QF FF account. So those 128,000 points earn QF $1,280 up front on which they earn interest until you take your flight.

Now think of all the unused points out there. Muppet analysts have always counted that as a liability to QF instead of being an asset. to make the maths easy let's say there are 1 billion FF points unclaimed (last I heard there were closer to 60bn FF outstanding but let's go with 1bn to make numbers easy). And let's say 500 million of them are from partner programs. That's $5 million QF have got for nothing.

Let's assume corporate borrowing rates are 10% overall. Pay that $5M off and you are saving $500K a year on money other people have given you.

Multiply that by 60 and there's a $30M annual pot of gold you didn't pay a cent for.

And even better, approx 30% of them expire without being redeemed so of out $5M you get to keep $1.67M and give away absolutely nothing.

Multiply that one by 60 and there's $18M free cash into your account.

Sweet.

Better and better it gets - as more and more companies use the partner program as their own loyalty program the number of points QF banks increases and the number that expire worthless but paid for increases as well.

And that's (partly) why the FF Program is so profitable to QF.

Taildragger67
6th Sep 2012, 10:25
Not sure of the exact schedule but I am pretty sure that Qantas do a daily to LHR through Singapore and Bangkok and also up to Frankfurt so changing to just a daily from SYD and MEL to LHR seems like a capacity downsize to me.

Qantas canned BKK-LHR some months ago, along with HKG-LHR; QF currently flies daily SYD-SIN-LHR and MEL-SIN-LHR; also SYD-SIN-FRA.

The effect of this announcement is to replace SIN in the above LHR rotations with DXB (so no capacity difference Aus-LHR), and to can SIN-FRA (so 100% loss of capacity). So all flights Aus-SIN will be terminators.

Livs Hairdresser
6th Sep 2012, 10:26
Romulus,
The majority of what you've outlined is already in place now, without the Emirates deal. What I was trying to allude to in my previous post was that for this deal to be a win for QF, the number of EK FF points redeemed on QF services has to exceed the number of QF FF points redeemed on EK services.

Given the size of the EK network compared to the ever dwindling QF network I can't possibly see how QF management ever thought this might be a possibility.

ohallen
6th Sep 2012, 10:27
The only problem with that analysis (which I accept) is that if the average punter paid $2,000 to UK and return and FF took $1280 of that, no wonder International is losing money.

Now lets compare that to a thimble and pea trick, because thats about what it is.

AEROMEDIC
6th Sep 2012, 10:31
And that's (partly) why the FF Program is so profitable to QF.

But wait, there's more.......

Merchants have found that they can recoup the costs of the program by charging a fee for accepting a credit card for payment. Even Qantas/Jetstar do the same online with an outrageous fee that does not reflect the true cost.
The public cops it because they have no choice unless you have the Jetstar Mastercard. Then, no fee is charged, but they charge an annual fee for you to use it. It's become a common practice among airlines now to have their OWN card and cut out the middle man.

The list goes on.
We accept it because the card is convenient and the promise of lots of points to spend on travel is very inviting if you want to travel a lot.
The downside is trying to get a seat in the class you want and when you want it. Currently it's still difficult to get an upgrade when you want it.

:sad:

Mstr Caution
6th Sep 2012, 12:05
And here we were on PPrune thinking that those in QF management had been sniffing glue.

Fly QF from SYD-BKK & wait 5 hours plus for the connecting BA flight to LHR. Like really ? That's gonna work? What were these guys thinking?

BA has been shafted in the deal.

Thinking QF was continuing with the JSA. Moving QF pax to Asia to pickup their BA connecting flights to LHR. Good old QF telling porky pies, they were withdrawing from unprofitable routes between BKK / HKG to LHR. Where, at the time they were shifting full flights on premium fares.

When really the intention was to withdraw from the JSA. Reschedule the timetable from Australia to Asia to suit those travelling to Asia only (not Europe) Meanwhile jumping into bed with EK, avoiding LHR & servicing Europe via the Dubai hub.

In the meantime, Qantas makes some coin on the side leasing the landing slots in London to BA. Knowing that the QF frequent flyers travelling to mainland Europe with EK will want to avoid Heathrow & fly one stop to their European destination anyway.

MC.

Romulus
6th Sep 2012, 12:10
Romulus,
The majority of what you've outlined is already in place now, without the Emirates deal. What I was trying to allude to in my previous post was that for this deal to be a win for QF, the number of EK FF points redeemed on QF services has to exceed the number of QF FF points redeemed on EK services.

Or they both win.

The mug punters who get their FF point with every transaction at Coles/Caltex/Optus/wherever build up that point base. QF and EK may be called upon to redeem trips for those points, they control the number of trips they will give away and when. Hence the angst at not being able to redeem points at will whenever, wherever (unless paying the premium anytime reward seats for the "luxury").

So QF and EK win because the costs are subsidised by all those other merchants (I'd really love to know the actual proportion of FF points earned on non airline activities) who then pay for people to fly. Or not fly if the points aren't redeemed. And put cash in QFs bank account. The overall pool is massively expanded by those merchants which is how both airlines can, and probably do, win.

Some time ago there was a thread that made the point that flying a Russian airline (S7) and buying a round trip business class ticket Sydney-Moscow cost about $2900 yet the first sector was QF Syd-Fra which, according to the QF website, costs around $6,000 if bought from QF.

To be on the very same plane.

I'd suggest that shows the level of fare that airlines charge each other, all we ever see are the retail fares offered to the mug punter.

Capt Kremin
6th Sep 2012, 12:50
I agree that less SO's will be needed on the 380. 4 pilot ops to DXB, 2 pilot to LHR with the 7 hour flight time. Maybe they might augment during winter ops.

What The
6th Sep 2012, 13:07
Romulus,

I believe that 80-90% of frequent flyer points are earned through non aviation activities. However, 90% of redemptions are done via air travel.

I believe the margin on points to be at least 15% as a minimum i.e. co. buys the points at $1 and redeems them at $0.85. Not a bad business considering the lack of costs to run it.

Mstr Caution
6th Sep 2012, 13:09
On the up side.

Wouldn't QF have pilot cost advantage operating CPT/FO & S/O's as opposed to augmented crew 2*CPTS & 2*FO's.

millerscourt
6th Sep 2012, 13:30
What EK does get though is cheap crews both flight and cabin and all other employees. Desert to build on is free as it is owned by the ruling family and cheap cheap construction costs due slave labour thus giving it a huge advantage over other competitors like BA,QF,LH etc etc etc.

Even SQ with cheap labour cannot compete with EK because land is expensive to build on.

givemewings
6th Sep 2012, 13:35
Gonna get interesting for reservations/check in/cabin crew.

QF have Chairman's Lounge Members/Platinum/Gold/Silver/Bronze FFs

Not to mention the OneWorld Emerald/Ruby/Sapphire.

EK have Gold/Silver/Blue Skywards.

Does this point to reshuffling of the FF programs to align the tiers? And will QF Chairman's Lounge members still get all the perks they are used to in DXB (i.e. private lounge, guaranteed bookings/seats, limo service etc etc etc)

I suppose the reservations/onboard passenger lists will show the respective airline tier designator and airline code next to the pax names. Add another foot of length to the printout then! :}

mohikan
6th Sep 2012, 13:38
Read an email today which states there will be a celebratory BBQ tomorrow at the brand new multi-million dollar 'campus'.

How good is this outfit eh ? Not only do they hatch a plan that will make thousands of operational staff redundant, whilst preserving the every increasing gravy train of consultants / management and other hangers on, they then have a party to celebrate the job losses !.

Ar$eholes of the highest order. Every single one of them.....

Metro man
6th Sep 2012, 13:44
So basically QF keep SYD/MEL - LHR. EK/SQ/CX get the other capital cities with QF getting a commission from EK via code share.

SQ/CX pick up the secondary Asian cities via their hubs. Who wants to fly QF to SIN and then endure a Jetstar flight. Preheaps if QF had a premium carrier based in Asia to transfer their passengers onto.....;)

piston broke again
6th Sep 2012, 13:57
So I'm predicting emirates may become the benefactor of said cancelled 787 order from QF?

SOPS
6th Sep 2012, 14:07
EK has stated many times that the 787 is too small for them.They are pushing Boeing for a 777 "NG". I may be wrong, but I dont think EK wants the 787, I am pretty sure if they did an order would already be in.

clear to land
6th Sep 2012, 14:16
There is absolutely no requirement to have more than 2 crew going anywhere in Europe from Dubai at any time of year. That is one of the 'secrets' to EK's rise. Geographically central to most of the worlds population with the exception of The Americas and the Antipodes.

Squawk-7600
6th Sep 2012, 14:57
Joyce on Sky Business stated they hope to maintain jobs in the medium to long term.

Yes but Qantas management's definition of "long term" is what's happening after lunch ... or a sausage sizzle in this case. So I wouldn't hold my breath!!

It seems to me that the midget has spelled out quite clearly how this is all going to work, even if he had to correct himself in the process. The flights are code share services, and with the exception of a few, will obviously be operated by EK. Eventually I'd expect even the few red-tail flights to be dropped. The vision is for QF international to become a virtual international airline, a strong domestic brand and network feeding a codeshare international network, where QF doesn't operate any aircraft whatsoever (internationally).

The Kelpie
6th Sep 2012, 15:23
You have to hand it to AJ this time. This alliance is a real master stroke!!

By getting Emirates to babysit their customers for a while it will allow QF to operate as a virtual airline. Virtual in the sense that in the main it is effectively, as far as international operations are concerned a travel agency where it can sell tickets and not incur operational risk just sit back and cream profit off the top. The utopia of all business!!

Meanwhile in the back office the HR department have been tasked with making redundant all operational staff and crew that are now surplus to requirements until there are a fraction of the former workforce left.

A little down the line AJ or more likely his successor will use the cash and the profitable accounts to build up the operational side of qantas again with lower wages and much inferior conditions and move to take customers back from Emirates.

Big question is Will they come back?

The mantra 'treat each others customers as our own.' may not work for emirates customers as they are used to a far superior product that the current qantas offering.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

donpizmeov
6th Sep 2012, 15:27
Wait there, QF now get to carry punters that want to travel to somewhere other than LHR out of OZ. All be it just to DXB, but still better than they do now. Maybe the Greek, Leb, Itialian and Maltese etc ozzies will consider the Rat again. If done properly these two services from SYD and MEL could be increased.

But wait there, one man at the table this morning hatched, grew and actively grows his business, the other one was from Qantas.

Bummer,

the Don

The Professor
6th Sep 2012, 19:07
The smartest thing QF management can do is morph QF into a virtual airline.

In the future, QF will operate as many jets as Apple make ipods.

Sunfish
6th Sep 2012, 19:47
Words just fail me.

Emirates will eat Qantas alive, one passenger at a time. Someone ought to teach Joyce about product differentiation. How can anyone possibly understand this ricochet? Last year we were all going to China! Everything now smells of desperation.

From a distance
6th Sep 2012, 21:11
The Greek, Leb, Itialian and Maltese etc ozzies are unlikely to consider the Rat again. They have been using Emirates for well over a decade. As most of them are now senior citizens they like simplicity, ie get to their destination with one airline. Good luck to the travel agent trying to convince them to fly QF to Dubai and then EK from there, and vice versa again for the return.

Algie
6th Sep 2012, 21:12
Sunfish's word picture is spot on.....

juliusg
6th Sep 2012, 21:25
The elephant in the room is the fares. QF charge minimum $9,192 business Sydney to London return (sample date 7 January, return February). If you take QF1 -vv- you pay up to $16,383. Which presumably is what Government pays QF to carry its employees, as no one else would be mad enough to pay this much!

Emirates charge a flat $7,987.24, same dates.

When the new deal kicks in, QF flyers will presumably have a choice - take QF metal or QF coded EK flights, pay whatever the 'new' fare will be, and get Status Credits on QF.

Or book and pay with EK, at 'their' flight cost (at least $1195 cheaper, and as much as $8,000 cheaper against the current QF1 top fare) and presumably earn points and SC on Skywards.

Whatever happens, QF can't maintain their ridiculously expensive fares and you can be sure the ACCC will want to ensure EK and QF don't milk this deal to the detriment of the customer.

mikk_13
6th Sep 2012, 21:33
So now I have more incentive to book emirates, get my points at woolies and the odd flight to boost them up.

The frequent fliers will be happy, most of them flew qantas to keep the status points etc going, now they don't have to.

hiwaytohell
6th Sep 2012, 21:49
There was one particular comment in the interviews given by Tim Clark that is particularly interesting.... "I can see Qantas flying their own metal over Dubai"

Meaning Qantas NEED to fly their own metal over Dubai. At least on the premier routes. Otherwise I might just as well fly EK!

One CEO gets it, the other CEO is copying someone else's homework.

John Borghetti needed to build a global airline presence and to do this quickly by minimising capital was to build the alliances he has... smart!!!

Joyce seems to be covering Borghetti's move.... to build a global airline network!... Ooohh did someone say Qantas already had a global network????

The EK deal may offer some short term gain! Dubai is a good move, but long term Qantas will need to do more... "fly their own metal over Dubai".. at least to Heathrow and a few other key destinations.... maybe even an opportunity for a JQ base once JXB opens... JXB would offer enormous potential for Qantas and Tim Clark knows it, so tie them up now!

Potsie Weber
6th Sep 2012, 22:24
Gotta love the comment by AJ regarding DXB Terminal 3

"Qantas and Emirates will be the only airlines in the Terminal, so we'll have a BIG Qantas presence"

I'm sure 2 x QF A380's will prove a BIG presence amongst 90 x EK A380's and 122 x EK 777's.

It will only further provide visible proof indicating QF's irrelevance in this "agreement"

Squawk-7600
6th Sep 2012, 22:31
I don't think some people appreciate how code share works. A passenger will book a Qantas ticket all the way through to Milan just for example, no changing carriers, it will be QF4567 to Milan via Dubai. However that is absolutely no guarantee that at any stage of that flight will they ever get on an aircraft painted in Qantas livery; they will actually be on an EK aircraft the whole way. When the pax books the flight with Qantas, there is simply a note (often small) stating "this service is operated by xxxx".

There is no difference in fares between QF and EK under this arrangement. This will be one of the "regulatory approvals" they will need to overcome. Expect competitors to bleat about it being price fixing (unless they don't give a toss about the alliance, given that it's the end of QF international, quite possible they won't).

As far as QF still "flying metal" internationally, if anyone honestly thinks that QF international can sustain the absurd bureaucratic anchor of non-revenue earning paper-pushers together with the world's most highly paid executive empire, by flying around a handful of A380s, then they really should join Margo on cloud cuckoo land! Why does anyone think international was separated off? To "improve productivity" as the BS meisters spruked? Hardly! It's so it can be easy amputated once the virtual network is established.

Captain Gidday
6th Sep 2012, 22:37
You guys just don't get it. In a couple of years, with everyone now used to flying through the Gulf, 100 A320s in a full business class config [remember those? - already on order] appear en masse in Dubai to fly into Europe. Suddenly the tables are turned and it's a New World Order.
I've got to stop drinking that KoolAid at the barbie!

Sunfish asks:
How can anyone possibly understand this ricochet?

Only one possible explanation, Sunfish. AJ reads PPRune and takes your advice.

Livs Hairdresser
6th Sep 2012, 22:52
Romulus,
All of those things you mention - the breakage, interest free money, merchant subsidised costs etc - are fine and beaut, but they're just the icing on the cake. And they already exist without EK. The name of the game for any FF scheme is to retain existing passengers and keep them flying on your aircraft. Any deals that you make with other airlines should be mutually beneficial in that the number of pax you lose to your partner airline should be balanced out by the number of pax you gain back from them. This deal achieves neither of those objectives.

So now I have more incentive to book emirates, get my points at woolies and the odd flight to boost them up.

The frequent fliers will be happy, most of them flew qantas to keep the status points etc going, now they don't have to.

This post sums up perfectly why this is a disaster for Qantas. Have a look at the Frequent Flyers forum, it's littered with posts expressing the same sentiment.

Conversely, how many EK FFs woke up this morning thinking "Great, next time I'm in Australia I can use my points to get to ADL on a QF domestic flight .... no wait, Emirates already fly to ADL"

Mstr Caution
6th Sep 2012, 23:40
Cheap Flights Australia | Cheap International and Domestic Airfares | Jetstar (http://www.jetstar.com/mediacentre/home)

I thought I'd check to see what news of the announcement on the JQ website.

Nothing.

Rashid Bacon
7th Sep 2012, 00:02
Having travelled both on QF and SQ 'J' class to Europe, SQ leaves QF for dead. That's one of the problems QF needs to address.

I don't care whether it goes via SIN or DXB, it's the service on board and the price.

Bagus
7th Sep 2012, 00:06
Recent increase of aviation contract company and airline using this labour has increase the number of maintenance error and they are not been reported,wht is CASA doing.

Metro man
7th Sep 2012, 01:47
Basically it was a choice for QF. A small percentage of something vs 100% of nothing. A passenger wanting MEL - JFK would have flown on a middle eastern airline from which QF would have earned nothing. Now they can fly him as far as DXB on their own aircraft, with his bags checked through and his onward boarding pass in his hand. Or they can have a percentage of his fare from a code share if he flies EK all the way.

Suddenly a huge network opens up and QF can now offer a range of one stop destinations which never existed before.

Perhaps EK would consider joining the One World alliance and offering a similar deal to other airlines, especially in light of resistance to EKs expansion from certain governments such as Canadas.

hotnhigh
7th Sep 2012, 01:54
Dubai "Aviation Experts" opinions..........
http://www.menafn.com/menafn/4f5b9e06-7902-4dda-ad40-e9e524386622/Big-vote-of-confidence-Dubai?src=main
Aside from allowing Qantas to use the custom built Terminal 3 building in Dubai, that Qantas is now routing its key Sydney and Melbourne connections through the city proves that Emirates competitive edge has forced the ailing Australian airline into joining a partnership that is being driven entirely by Emirates management team,
Qantas customers will be spoilt for choice and will likely leave Qantas in droves, much to Emirates' delight.

framer
7th Sep 2012, 02:47
I have a few questions for those in the know.

1/ How many departures does EK make from Australian soil every day?
2/ Will this number increase or decrease come April 2013?
3/ How many international departures does QF have from Australian soil each day?
4/ Will this number increase or decrease come April 2013?

I think this will be a good thing for Qantas over the next two-three years but if Qantas decreases the number of international departures then it will be a downhill slide and all over by 2018 for international.
Conversely, if they increase the number of departures and EK decrease or stay the same ( from Ausi soil) it will be win/win. The only way I see that happening is if EK can better utilize their aircraft hours because of the code share.

virgindriver
7th Sep 2012, 03:46
Why doesn't Qantas just form as alliance with WebJet and be done with it? It sure looks like it's heading this way....

Mstr Caution
7th Sep 2012, 04:09
It would make sense for the rescheduled Qantas Asian schedules to allow an Asian transit before boarding an EK service onwards to Dubai then Europe.

High fare premiums flying one stop to Europe via Dubai.

Any excess capacity thru Asia, sold as an alternate means of getting to Europe & still avoiding Heathrow.

Alien Role
7th Sep 2012, 04:36
AH-HA !!
A very cunning move by Qantas......now every Qantas aircraft transitting through DXB can be stuffed full with all that FREE FUEL that Emirates has access to ;);) , so alleviating that nasty fuel price disparity that Dixon/Joyce have been banging on about.

Role on....

argusmoon
7th Sep 2012, 04:51
QF should have started flying to DXB 10 years ago when EK was an infant.
Fly in with 744s,base 6 or so A330s in DXB and run shuttles to 6 or so destinations in Europe.
Read somewhere that Boghetti wanted to do this out of Perth.Apparently the board were perplexed by this idea

Yarra
7th Sep 2012, 05:20
Argus. What iota of difference would that have made?.

teresa green
7th Sep 2012, 05:28
Who the hell wants to go to DXB anyway. Once is enough, give me Singers anytime. Oh dear, oh dear, if only, if only, they had given the guernsey to someone who knew what they were doing, Joyce is right up there with Gillard. One running the country, the other the national carrier, both stuffed and broke. Says it all.

ramius315
7th Sep 2012, 05:52
So I'm guessing you haven't been to Dubai for a while Teresa?;)

Who wants to go to Dubai? The millions of travelers that want really easy access to Europe and Africa. This is a very good move by QF, it just should have been done many years ago.

I can't believe I'm saying this , but well done Joyce et al. Ouch that hurt!! :8

Ollie Onion
7th Sep 2012, 06:36
Interesting, just seen an internal communication at Jetstar stating that this tie up brings with it 'exciting' code share opportunities between Jetstar and Emirates that are being discussed now and will be announced as part of this deal.

Appears all these rumours of Emirates wanting to exclude Jetstar may just be wishful thinking.

TIMA9X
7th Sep 2012, 06:49
British Airways seeks new strategic partner after Qantas signs Emirates deal - Yahoo! Finance UK (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/british-airways-seeks-strategic-partner-051017292.html)

This is a very good move by QFYes and No
Qantas deal a short-term winner but long-term outlook problematic

September 06, 2012 1:05PM
QANTAS will face a tough battle to win Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) approval of its Emirates joint venture, which will control over 50 per cent of traffic between Australia and Europe and effectively take one competitor out of the market.

ACCC chief Rod Sims told The Australian that it was early days yet in the regulator’s consideration but “obviously we will look very closely at any deal which sees Emirates fares move closer to the higher Qantas fares”.
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/qantas-deal-a-short-term-winner-but-long-term-outlook-problematic/story-e6frg9io-1226466423768)

I don't see this deal as clear cut as it sounded yesterday....... couple this with Singo's comments last night, the lack of involvement in the media from Leigh Clifford..

As this is a rumour network.... I have heard some strong rumours that Mr Clifford will be stepping down at the AGM..... can't prove it yet, but coming from some reliable sources who have been reliable in the past. I have also herd that AJ is fast running out of friends at board level.... make of that what you want..

I doubt BA are happy with the announcement yesterday either, they will find it tough going it alone... If anyone has heard similar, would be interested to compare notes...


certainly interesting times....

also..

I doubt Canberra will be as easy to get along with considering the embarrassment caused by AJs (LCs) decision to ground the airline last year...

Very possible they have made a lot of sleeping enemies within the union ranks buried deep in the Canberra vault.:ouch:

73to91
7th Sep 2012, 07:05
Interesting article regarding the alliance and costs per pax ex LHR & FRA via Asia v ME,


The Qantas alliance with Emirates will unambiguously improve its bottom line compared to a world without it, as is reflected in the 13 per cent lift in the share price over the past 24 hours or so.

The “if you can't beat 'em, join 'em”, strategy is an admission that the
airline can't compete with Emirates on price (or costs), product and network footprint in Europe.

It's also a realisation that Qantas had to do something radical to stop the bleeding of its international business.

Departure taxes
The other seemingly forgotten benefit of the Emirates alliance - and it's
material - is the move means Qantas and its passengers will pay lower departure taxes to UK and German government authorities.

The UK departure tax, called the air passenger duty (APD), is higher for UK flights departing for Australia that hub through Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok than for flights that hub through Dubai when passengers stay at the hub point for 24 hours or more, which is true for a high percentage of passengers.

This difference is because the APD rate, quite unfairly for Qantas, is based on the distance travelled between the UK and the port where the aircraft lands. The longer the distance the higher the rate that is paid.

Qantas was paying an APD of 92 pounds ($142) for economy class passengers and 184 pounds ($285) for premium economy, business and first-class passengers using the Singapore hub.

By hubbing through Dubai, the rate paid by Qantas passengers falls to 65
Pound Stirling and 130 Pound Stirling for economy and other passengers
respectively.

The variance between these rates of tax can be the difference between a
profit and a loss on some international routes.

The German authorities currently impose an Air Travel Tax that is 45 euros ($55) for travel to Australia via Singapore and 25 euros ($31) for travel to Australia via the Middle East. Qantas will save 25 euros per passenger for a large percentage of passengers immediately by hubbing through Dubai rather than Singapore.



Read more: Emirates pact will help stem Qantas losses (http://www.smh.com.au/business/emirates-pact-will-help-stem-qantas-losses-20120907-25iwb.html#ixzz25lTa9neT)

TIMA9X
7th Sep 2012, 07:50
Further to my previous comment


Qantas moves one step closer to junk status


Qantas has had its credit rating cut to the lowest investment grade by Standard & Poor’s after the airline yesterday struck a 10-year alliance with Emirates to turn around losses on international routes.
Qantas’s debt grade was lowered by one level to BBB- with a stable outlook, according to the ratings company.
‘‘Qantas’s business risk profile has weakened, because of the structural pressures affecting the airline’s international business,’’ S&P analyst May Zhong said. ‘‘Persistent pressures have eroded Qantas’s market share and inflicted losses on the airline’s international operations in the past few years.’’
Qantas yesterday announced a revenue and cost-sharing tie- up with Emirates, the world’s largest carrier by international passenger traffic, to turn around $450 million of annual losses on its international routes.
Advertisement
The airline last month reported its first annual loss for the group since it was sold by the government in 1995.
Qantas holds a Baa3 grade from Moody’s Investors Service, also the lowest investment grade ranking. The carrier is one of just two airlines worldwide, with Southwest Airlines, to be judged investment grade by two separate rating companies

Read more: Qantas moves one step closer to junk status (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-moves-one-step-closer-to-junk-status-20120907-25jdq.html#ixzz25lg9Gq5l)


The plot thickens....

goodonyamate
7th Sep 2012, 07:57
I read an article over breakfast this morning which said pretty close to

"Tim Clark has ruled out putting any of his passengers on Jetstar". I'm trying to find it, as soon as I do, I'll post it.

The basic point of the article was that Jetstar would not be involved with ek in any way.



It's a sandilands article but for some reason when I click on the link it goes to a different article. But says emirates have refused to put any pax on jetstar

gobbledock
7th Sep 2012, 08:04
TIMA9X,
Seems the investment community is only just starting to catch on to reality by the sounds of things? I think Junk Status is actually a compliment considering what the little nimrod has done to the company. They should name it 'brown status'.

Captain Gidday
7th Sep 2012, 08:18
Qantas deal a short-term winner but long-term outlook problematic

September 06, 2012 1:05PM
QANTAS will face a tough battle to win Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) approval of its Emirates joint venture, which will control over 50 per cent of traffic between Australia and Europe and effectively take one competitor out of the market.

ACCC chief Rod Sims told The Australian that it was early days yet in the regulator’s consideration but “obviously we will look very closely at any deal which sees Emirates fares move closer to the higher Qantas fares”.

Tim,

That actually is a very interesting statement from the ACCC chief. Note he does not appear interested in the competition aspects of the deal. Only that the little Aussie battlers, out there in the Labor heartland, can still get cheap fares to Europe. A much easier thing to reassure the regulator about, I would think. As in "of course this new alliance will actually lower Qantas' cost base and allow us to be more competitive, hence lowering our fares". [Well, maybe, fingers crossed].

AJ's blustering all this year can now be seen in a new light. Talking up the supposed losses in longhaul, which have magically risen from $100M, to $240M to $420M to whatever number you want to pluck, has been solely to soften up the ACCC to make the case that this deal must go ahead.

Similarly, the 'falling overseas market share' argument is also all about priming the ACCC case, to make it easier to argue that Qantas must have this alliance, or very bad things will happen to politician's perks. The 'longhaul is a basket case' spruiking is all about that, nothing more.

Given the PR spin that will now gush forth, sounding just like the above [watch the weekend papers] , it will be a done deal. Olivia's no doubt already onto it. Get that rubber stamp ready.

SOPS
7th Sep 2012, 08:31
What Qantas-Emirates looks like doing for passengers | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/09/06/what-qantas-emirates-looks-like-doing-for-passengers/)

goodonyamate
7th Sep 2012, 08:37
That's the one!

TIMA9X
7th Sep 2012, 08:45
AJ's blustering all this year can now be seen in a new light. Talking up the supposed losses in longhaul, which have magically risen from $100M, to $240M to $420M to whatever number you want to pluck, has been solely to soften up the ACCC to make the case that this deal must go ahead.A good point, and I believe people in the investment community are asking themselves the same questions.

For me, it's the current image problem that Qantas carries in the public's eye, which is the real problem. AJ and LC have damaged that to the point it can't be repaired whilst they are running the show... singo touches on this here..

RI1VbdY0C_k

teresa green
7th Sep 2012, 08:57
Put it this way Raimus, if on staff travel, would you like to off loaded in SIN or DBX? Thought so.

SandyPalms
7th Sep 2012, 08:59
Ollie. What does it actually say?

SOPS
7th Sep 2012, 09:08
Good remarks from Singleton...except for the the free fuel bit:ugh::ugh:

Going Boeing
7th Sep 2012, 09:34
The other seemingly forgotten benefit of the Emirates alliance - and it's
material - is the move means Qantas and its passengers will pay lower departure taxes to UK and German government authorities.

The UK departure tax, called the air passenger duty (APD), is higher for UK flights departing for Australia that hub through Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok than for flights that hub through Dubai when passengers stay at the hub point for 24 hours or more, which is true for a high percentage of passengers.

73to91, I suspect that the author of that article hasn't read the detail about how the UK Air Passenger Duty is applied. It is charged on departure from the UK (included in the taxes/charges in the ticket price) and is applicable to your final destination so if your ticket takes you to Australia, you will pay the maximum amount irrespective of whether your flight goes via DXB or SIN.

See here (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_000505#P28_2014).

I'm surprised that Tony Webber made this error as he is very astute about airline finance. One saving that will be made for the passengers is the European emissions tax which will be significantly reduced for flights out of DXB in comparison with SIN.

ohallen
7th Sep 2012, 09:56
This move by Singleton is not an accident and must be strategic given the timing. Most significant aspect was he almost admitted cashing up for an event and guess we have to now just sit and wait for it all to unfold.

Still think ASIC should be all over this waiting with whatever they need.

Yarra
7th Sep 2012, 10:41
Like all of us John Singleton is entitled to his opinion. But..Petrol???? He needs to do some research and on the "free Petrol", that is simply wrong.

Also his comments on the labour market. He believes that the likes of EK should perhaps pay a tax to compensate for QF's high labour costs. It is a global market and QF needs to compete, he cannot expect the world to make concessions to QF just because another company operates in it's backyard.

The other stale argument that he mentioned is the "cheap labour". It is all relative and the Dubai staff would see their opportunity to earn a living too, no income tax, accommodation provided for, medical subsidy and generally a whole lot more money that they would earn in their own country.

What he does not mention either is that EK staff in the EK network, are paid in accordance with the awards or labour laws of those countries, including Australia.



Y

Russell Kaymer
7th Sep 2012, 15:18
Say it with me, 'hold at BUBIN'. Did I read 14 flights a day? More runways required already let alone with the addition of another semi major carrier.

SOPS
7th Sep 2012, 15:43
Of those 14 flights a day, only 2 will be QF flights, the rest will be EK flights with a Qantas code share. AJ sought of 'glossed' over that little fact in his speech.:E

TIMA9X
7th Sep 2012, 18:46
LacaBCeivnw

This link is the first part of the John Singleton interview on the Switzer report Sky news last Thursday, (apologies, I forgot to post, busy Friday) very interesting to listen to.

busdriver007
7th Sep 2012, 20:29
Yarra,

EK-state owned enterprise

No let's explore this a little:
1. Pays NO Corporate taxes
2. Pays NO Payroll taxes
3. Borrows money at state guaranteed rates
4. Advertising paid for by the UAE Government(UAE tourism)
5. Sydney Airport the most expensive in the Asia/Pacific region(MEL, BNE not far behind). Dubai Airport owned by UAE Government-how much does EK pay?
6. EK does not have to report to shareholders as a public company like QF

Just a start.....has unlimited rights into Australia where most countries exercise restraint to at least give their own a chance to compete...

dutch_oven
7th Sep 2012, 20:46
They used to say you need aircraft in the air to keep the profitable frequent flyer program going. It seems they've found a way around this by using other other airline's aircraft. Now they can gradually retire the entire QF international fleet and grow the frequent flyer program which is where the real money is.

golfjet744
7th Sep 2012, 21:20
They used to say you need aircraft in the air to keep the profitable frequent flyer program going. It seems they've found a way around this by using other other airline's aircraft. Now they can gradually retire the entire QF international fleet and grow the frequent flyer program which is where the real money is.

Reconfiguring Qf international makes sense and money. This is only necessary because of the sins of past and present management.

Getting rid of Qf international makes no sense nor any money. If emirates has a monopoly position on the Qf freq flyers, it will squeeze Qf's profits until there is nothing left for Qf. Qf must maintain an airborne presence to ensure a profitable position can be negotiated and maintained.

Emirates has a great network but it doesn't help across the pacific or into Asia.

dizzylizzy
7th Sep 2012, 21:21
Compare the similarities with Air Canada's once in house Aeroplan FF reward program. There inlies a yellow brick road already paved.

Twin Beech
7th Sep 2012, 22:30
What we will likely never know is the difference that the FF program has to pay QF for a seat v. what it will be billed by EK.

It is likely that the " profits" in frequent flyer have been made by revenue shifting away from QF Intl. I cannot imagine that FF will enjoy the same terms with EK, especially since the majority of the points redemptions occur on intl flights; soon to be on EK intl flights.

Metro man
8th Sep 2012, 01:29
Taken from the UK Revenue and Customs website:

Example 2

Flight details


London to Dubai then Dubai to Sydney


scheduled to arrive at Dubai UAE (Band B) at 17.50 on 1 November


booked to depart to Sydney (Band D) at 23.15 hours on 2 November


as more than 24 hours has elapsed between the flights, they are not considered to be connected for APD purposes and £60 or £120 APD (Band B rate) (depending on class of travel) is due.


The class of travel occupied between Dubai and Sydney is irrelevant.


London to Dubai then Dubai to Sydney


scheduled to arrive at Dubai (Band B) at 17.50 on 1 November


booked to depart to Sydney (Band D) at 23.15 hours on 1 November


as the scheduled departure of the second flight is within 24 hours of the arrival of the first then the flights are considered to be connected for APD purposes and £85 or £170 APD (Band D rate) (depending on class of travel) is due.


If a higher class of travel has been occupied on either the London-Dubai and/or the Dubai-Sydney leg, £170 APD is due.


Rates quoted in this example are for 1 November 2010 to 31 March 2012 and are for illustrative purposes only.



Have a stop over one your way back and save money:ok:

Or fly from the UK to somewhere in Europe you'd like to visit, such as Paris and arrange your ticket so you only transit the UK on your return and pay the lowest APD charge for a flight to Europe.

Case B covers international connections (a flight connecting through the UK to another flight to an international destination).

International flight to international flight


Case B rules


£0 APD due.



Alternatively buy an open jaw ticket SYD - DXB - LHR then PAR - DXB - SYD. Get yourself over to Paris quite cheaply spend a day or two and fly home from there.

600ft-lb
8th Sep 2012, 02:21
I dont agree about singletons assertions that a tax should be levied on competitors to protect Qantas. But I do believe we shouldn't allow foreign competitors to capacity dump in this industry or any industry that is a major employer in this country. The host country should get free right of return, if EK lands 500 seats in an Australian port, an Australian airline gets 500 seats in their port. 1 for 1, not 109 per week vs 14. If the demand is there, both airlines can grow concurrently.

The benefit to Australia with justification that there is more low paid hospitality jobs created to counteract the loss in high paid skilled positions, the closure of most of Qantas's maintenance facilities being an excellent example, doesn't in my opinion justify a free trade.

I think what he probably meant to say if he had more time was, although I could be wrong, that free trade agreements are good if the world is an equal playing field. It's not an equal playing field and if the government wants to jump in the free trade world then don't expect the country to be better off at the end of it. Don't expect your icons to survive, don't expect your local industry to grow to support the large icons. Don't expect the closure of a Heavy Maintenance facility with 1000 jobs gone to not have a flow on effect of 5x as much in the community that supports that operation.

Manufacturing jobs have a multiplying effect. Hospitality jobs don't.

Lodown
8th Sep 2012, 04:11
Re: FF program.

IMHO: The QF gift to EK is for 10 years correct? So EK has 10 years to rape all westbound QF pax while honouring the QF FF program. Result: QF FF program on the international side has 10 years at most until oblivion and the point when EK refuses to honour QF FF points. The reality will be about half that time I think, because EK will have slaughtered what's left of QF's international customer loyalty and I can't see QF having any financial capability left to run connecting flights to code share. EK will own the routes in their entirety and QF international will be relegated to a few remaining southern Asia connections and possibly the US (but I doubt it) still. What QF does with the excess 380's will be anyone's guess.

Yarra
8th Sep 2012, 04:39
No let's explore this a little:
1. Pays NO Corporate taxes
2. Pays NO Payroll taxes
3. Borrows money at state guaranteed rates
4. Advertising paid for by the UAE Government(UAE tourism)
5. Sydney Airport the most expensive in the Asia/Pacific region(MEL, BNE not far behind). Dubai Airport owned by UAE Government-how much does EK pay?
6. EK does not have to report to shareholders as a public company like QF

Just a start.....has unlimited rights into Australia where most countries exercise restraint to at least give their own a chance to compete...

BD7, you are possibly correct on some assertions. EK though pay a dividend to the UAE Government. The structure of fees/taxes paid may be different although they are paid. ...