5th September QF Announcement

[Stalins ugly Brother]

In line with Emirates, all Qantas business/first class international long haul passengers will have Limos to and from the airport.
And apparently shortly there is to be an announcement that the 787-8s that were for Jetstar, in line with the premium product tie up with Emirates, WILL be flown domestically in Qantas colours to offer a high quality business product. Further more, the -9s will be for expansion by Qantas into Asia from 2016, providing connectivity to Emirates services to Europe through SIN,HK, BKK, SGN etc. This is from a very, very reliable source who hadn't been on the source!

Maybe, just maybe things might be starting to change for the better. Obviously Joyce has pissed Dixon and Co off (read into Singletons rant), so obviously no private equity deal on the horizon there! So now the focus on Asia will be about a premium product and loyal premium passengers not just a bunch of thong wearing lowbreeds! :D

(My guess is the A320s of the loss making Jetstar Int will be repainted Qantas and the interiors reconfigured to a premium product. Jetstar Domestic to remain strong Domestically as it does a great job with the leisure market and competes dominantly against Tiger and hampers any of Tigers grand expansion plans). :ok:

[ampclamp]

EK will want, and will get ,product equivalence end to end. They would not get into the deal unless it was. Q will be flying to places domestically that have not seen a red tail in a while hence the announced GC Tassie and now the HTI rumours.

[1a sound asleep]

apparently shortly there is to be an announcement that the 787-8s that were for Jetstar, in line with the premium product tie up with Emirates, WILL be flown domestically in Qantas colours

Now imagine a 787 operating CBR-DXB , CNS-DXB and even OOL-DXB. QF would be smart to utilise the lower capacity 787 to open up new markets/routes BEFORE somebody else does:ugh:. CBR and CNS one stop to all those EK destinations would be brilliant.

The 787 is really too good too waste on domestic markets.

[DJ737]

The host country should get free right of return, if EK lands 500 seats in an Australian port, an Australian airline gets 500 seats in their port. 1 for 1, not 109 per week vs 14. If the demand is there, both airlines can grow concurrently.

Australian airlines have exactly the same traffic rights as UAE airlines between Australia and the UAE, they just choose not to use them.:rolleyes:

[indamiddle]

with the loss of frankfurt we need 230 less cabin crew in oz.
depending on layover in dbx not sure about change in A380 numbers.
less london based crew needed with shorter LHR-DBX-LHR compared with long LHR-SIN-LHR. no idea what that reduction will be but with a fairly rapid turnover in the base hopefully no-one gets shafted.
anyone know what other flights are getting the chop from oz?

[bvcu]

So with the recent dropping of 747 flights to LHR , now only 2 380 flts a day , how many slots does QF hold at LHR ? These could be very valuable to EK ?

[Itsaworry]

EK must be rubbing their hands together, PAX on a plate forced to taste the delights, then expected to fly again L'haul with the AJ team !! what planet are those PAX from again ? in ya dreams paddy!!!

[framer]

Half of the posts on this thread assume that QF will cancel Flights and not replace them with new destinations. For this partnership to be beneficial to both parties they will need to operate to mainly different destinations ( expand both networks) . Ie earn points on EK flying through to Paris, and then later on spend those points with QF flying through to Queenstown or Bangkok. If they both operate to the same places then obviously EK will eat QF for breakfast.....but that will have been thought of. As long as QF have more International departures in 2 yrs time than they do now, then it will be a win, people will be burning EK points on the new destinations. I think many people forget that this will allow much better utilization of EK heavies while still providing the same (or better) route structure.
It won't be the end of QF International, it will allow it to expand.
That's my prediction anyway.

[Goddamnslacker]

10,000 QF staff to get the chop once the deal is approved....Joyce yet to make this know but upper management have been told a big knife to cut thru all departments to improve the bottom line...

[DirectAnywhere]

Framer, to date we know that:

PER - SIN is gone
ADL - SIN is gone
BNE - SIN is gone
SYD - BKK is gone
SYD - SIN - FRA is gone

That's got to be another 200 pilot jobs surplus to requirements plus whatever the removal of S/Os on DXB - LHR will allow.

New flying announced - NONE! There is no upside to this for staff and no chance of expansion. QANTAS is simply becoming a travel agency selling tickets on other airlines' aircraft. I truly wish it weren't so but I just can't see your vision becoming reality.

[donpizmeov]

QF can still sell tickets on three of the five above under the code share. This agreement may be bad for QF job holders and EK staff travelers.

The Don

[Toruk Macto]

Qantas domestic will be beefed up as Emerites will want their passengers distributed around Australiasia by a full service carrier . When it comes to operating up to Asia there will be no need for more Qantas , full service operations due to the Emerites tie up . Emerites operate everywhere around Asia at the moment .
The Asian carriers are doing well to Australia . So Qantas will have to fight to get more market share against Asian operators that have a lower cost base and good service .
So Qantas will continue to Asia but Jetstar will get the biggest chance to develope due to cost base .
My thoughts only .

[dizzylizzy]

Would they really axe all of the PER & BNE->SIN flts? Probably retime them given that SIN is one of the growth markets, retime and most likely axe one of the PER rotations. BKK prob disappear given the SYD/BKK rotation of the EK ac. Use this ac for MEL/SIN?

[Metro man]

A taste of EK luxury.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1OqqQ8hBXk

[sunnySA]

From the QF media release.
Qantas will launch daily A380 services from both Sydney and Melbourne to London via Dubai, meaning that together Emirates and Qantas will offer 98 weekly services between Australia and Dubai.
Does this mean that EK will then operate the other 84 services?
If so, what are the numbers from the various Australian ports?

[The Professor]

"There is no upside to this for staff"

There is an upside. The cost savings will ensure QF have a future for the staff that remain.

Although a business is not in the marketplace for the benefit of the staff.

[Ka.Boom]

Without staff a business is not in the marketplace.In fact Its not even in business

[donpizmeov]

Sunny,

2 x 777 daily to BNE
1 x 380 2 x 777 daily to SYD and MEL
3 x 777 PER daily
1 x 777 ADL daily

[framer]

DA , they have pulled those five flights yes. If they just push the airframes over to the side of the strip and make 200 redundant then fair enough, but I don't think they'll do that, I think they'll sit down with the EK analysts and find some destinations ex Ausi that EK doesn't operate direct to, and start new routes. That way EK get a bigger and better route structure and QF get EK pax on the aircraft.

[SOPS]

SunnySA......the answer to your question is this...Qantas will operate 2 flights a day from Australia to London via Dubai, one from Sydney and one from Melbourne, all other flights will be operated by Emirates. As I said earlier, AJ (and some of the press it seems) have "glossed" over this fact.

Reality is...most of the EK/QF services will be operated by Emirates.

[Squawk-7600]

"There is no upside to this for staff"

There is an upside. The cost savings will ensure QF have a future for the staff that remain.

Although a business is not in the marketplace for the benefit of the staff.

I'm sorry that is not totally correct. A company's employees are a stakeholder in any company's operation, and an ethical and intelligent company management will always consider them as a key part of any operation, particularly in a service industry. Southwest is one of the most historically successful airlines in arguably the most difficult of all markets, the USA, and it's CEO has this to say about it;

"Our people are our single greatest strength and most enduring longterm competitive advantage."

Gary Kelly, CEO Southwest Airlines

Framer, with all due respect I feel you may be mistaken as to how this will work. Qantas will NOT, at least at this stage, use the airframes to go up in to Asia. The 767s and 747 will be sold. Meanwhile the A330s that are currently being used internationally will be redeployed to further strengthen the domestic network by adding capacity and replacing the existing 767 services (down the East Coast for example). What's in it for EK then you ask? It's the Australian DOMESTIC network that will feed in to EK and visa versa. This was the final knife that killed Qantas International, and it is now dead. I have personally never seen a company with such a bloated and inefficient back office as Qantas, the empires that exist there are just extraordinary! All the empires are constantly competing to allocate costs against each other, even if the overall result is a far greater overall cost to the corporation as a whole. It's quite bizarre; a "How not to do it" management guide if ever there was one. If anyone honestly believes a handful of A380s will support all these "paper shufflers" then they are frankly kidding themselves. It won't be long at all before that is made public, and the A380s also sold. It is why the International division was separated off from the domestic operation several months ago. I predict Qantas to shrink to about half its current size in terms of employee numbers.

So what of Asia then? Joyce, in his complete and utter lack of understanding of the region, believes that everyone in Asia is a peasant and therefore the "low cost" model is the one to use :rolleyes: The strategy is to create a "spiderweb" of Jetstar franchises (their so called "capital light" model) throughout the region, with each hub feeding in to the next. In my humble opinion this has to be one of his most idiotic strategies to date*, though it's admittedly a long list, but I digress.

No matter which way it goes, Qantas International is now dead, and about the only hope is that perhaps Joyce will be thrown out, common sense will prevail, and the 787s sent to where they really belong.

*It was a tough choice between these "franchises", where Qantas management actually believe the locals are going to treat them as a true "business partner" and not just ripe fruit to be plucked. On the other hand "Red Q" would have easily won the "Most Idiotic Business Idea" award, but at least after waking up the next morning from the boozy business lunch on which it was developed, the paper napkins comprising its business plan were hastily destroyed before too much more money was wasted on it.

[framer]

Squawk 7600,
If it pans out the way you describe then this is the start of the end for QF International and I'll happily eat my hat. The reason I don't think this will happen though is because it is so obviously going to destroy the International arm if they start shrinking it. Surely Hickey would step down now rather than over-see that happen?
The obvious way forward from here is to create a route structure that benefits both airlines, with QF doing most of the shuffling around in order to suit EK.
New destinations with the same number of international departures for QF as there is now and growing that over the next 5 years.
Hopefully that happens.
Cheers :)

[Short_Circuit]

New destinations with the same number of international departures for QF as there is now and growing that over the next 5 years
But with 10 more 747's off to the graveyard in the next 12 months with NO REPLACEMENTS it would be very hard to expand or even stand still.... :uhoh:

[Capt_SNAFU]

The bit that hasn't been explained is if all these pax get off in Dubai to go to european destinations (good for pax), who fills up the QF 1 out of Dubai to LHR? How many pax will QF pick up ex Dubai? My thought is not many.

[The The]

With this agreement, QF has no possibility of ever expanding westwards, no matter how much they turn the business around. EK will never allow it. SQ, CX, TG will have Asia completely tied up even more, so there will never again be expansion that way either.

So that leaves the QF International network as the US, and maybe South Africa, and South America. 12 x A380's would cover that, but looking towards the future I can see the 777x as the best fit for a very small but profitable international network.

I agree with 7600 but expect more job losses, over the next 5+ years, I believe up to 80% of QF staff could be shed.

For the domestic network and small international network, 10,000 employees would still probably be excessive depending on the level of maintenance done in Australia. I think Virgin has about 6,000 employees, so that's what they'll likely target. Plus perhaps a few thousand management consultants.

[indamiddle]

Thanks direct anywhere for the other flights getting the chop.
Will be a minimum of 400 cabin crew jobs in oz to go.
I feel another package coming on after April.
Maybe only 300 or so if AKL base gets shut down.
There is still 100 crew based there even though we no longer have any wide bodies operating across the pond. The company actually passengers these crew on jet connect both ways AKL SYD AKL to pick up trips from Sydney and to get them home.

[ButFli]

The bit that hasn't been explained is if all these pax get off in Dubai to go to european destinations (good for pax), who fills up the QF 1 out of Dubai to LHR? How many pax will QF pick up ex Dubai? My thought is not many.

One would think that LHR-bound pax from ADL, BNE, PER etc would fly to DXB on EK metal (QF flight number) and switch to QF1/9 in DXB. It seems to work perfectly fine for QF through SIN so I can't imagine it will be any worse through DXB.


Now, thinking about what value QF can add to EK with new destinations. What if QF started flying to new Asian destinations through Singapore? Australia-SIN-Asia? One flight from each Australian city, all timed to exchange pax in SIN before heading on to final destinations. This would not compete with EK (no one wants to fly all the way to DXB and back again). EK could bring pax to SIN from DXB and further west and put them onto QF metal to asian destinations that aren't served directly from DXB. Anyone think this could be a go-er?

[busdriver007]

Framer,
Simon Hickey should be te first casualty as should Hrdlicka and Strambi. All these people are lightweights and think they are the smartest people in the room. This deal will shed 10,000 jobs over 3 years(2800 already) and will be the dumbest decision ever made in airline history. A desperate decision made by a desperate man. Jetstar International will be revealed for what it is, a disaster, and the Jetstar franchise will find it impossible to compete with deep pocketed Chinese new starts. Time to explore what happens to all the Air Service Agreements(ASA) owned by Australia, including those used by wet-leased freight companies. ACCC will need to explore this very closely as their mantra is to ensure the best deal for the industry and the community. Time will tell but our Australian industry will take years to recover as the expertise is exported. Better start finding nice tasting hat.

[Squawk-7600]

Squawk 7600,
If it pans out the way you describe then this is the start of the end for QF International and I'll happily eat my hat. The reason I don't think this will happen though is because it is so obviously going to destroy the International arm if they start shrinking it. Surely Hickey would step down now rather than over-see that happen?
The obvious way forward from here is to create a route structure that benefits both airlines, with QF doing most of the shuffling around in order to suit EK.
New destinations with the same number of international departures for QF as there is now and growing that over the next 5 years.
Hopefully that happens.
Cheers

Sauce with that hat Sir?

Framer, with all due respect I'm not sure where you've been for the last few years, but this is not the "start" of anything. This has been going on for some time, with aircraft slowly but surely being ferried to the US for disposal. The only recent acquisitions were the A380, and the total number that Qantas ordered has been "delayed" (read cancelled). I agree, the correct strategy is to expand in to Asia as a premium product, but it has been made quite clear that will not happen, and Qantas will not spend one cent on the International division "... until it begins returning a profit" - Alan Joyce. I'm not sure what aircraft you believe they are going to run up to Asia! Yes it WILL be the death of Qantas International, that is why you hear so many people up in arms over it. The slated A380 running through DBX is merely a temporary measure to have the deal approved, as without that the ACCC would never approve it. As I mentioned, there is no way on God's earth that the number of QF paper pushers in the various Towers of Power can be supported, even with a dozen A380s, and it was why the international airline was restructured to be separate from the domestic airline. If anyone thinks it was done to "improve efficiency" as spruiked by management, then I have a ski lodge in Abu Dhabi you may be interested in buying. I'll give you a good price. Honest, trust me! ;) As for out East, there is no statutory requirement for Qantas to fly anywhere. They will just pull the plug, say it was inevitable "because of the greedy unions", the management team will receive their golden parachutes and wander off to wherever morons go when they're not destroying companies.

I agree, Jetstar International's days are numbered. It's always been a disaster. As far as most of Asia is concerned it's not required anyway, as the grand plan is to feed from hub to hub (SIN, HKG, NRT, etc). Despite the fact that all of these "ventures" have been a complete an utter waste of money, Joyce remains convinced it's the way to go. Maybe, just MAYBE he will finally open his eyes and see that J* fills a niche in the market, and is not the market itself, but I wouldn't count on it. The muppet will need to be pushed I'd expect before any changes are seen to that strategy. Unlike the restrictions placed on QF, J* has absolutely no restrictions on where its principle place of business is located. I expect the 787s to be placed with Jetstar in Asia (probably SIN) and fly back to Aus with the cheapest foreign based crews who have shafted each other to lower the bar further on pay and conditions. J* domestic will contract slightly, but will be there for the foreseeable future. It fills a niche and prevents other carriers entering the market. If you're an FO there I trust you like the right seat, as you're not going anywhere else fast. With the MOU argument raging all I can say is that a few people are going to be eating humble pie, and I'll just leave it at that.

One caveat to all the above is that it relies on the existing management "team" remaining. As much as I think it's fair to be nervous if you're a QF or J* pilot, I'd suggest that's nothing compared to all levels of management. If you're in middle management you're gone already, last person out don't forget to turn out the lights. BUT upper management has increasingly been seen as completely incompetent. There would be a few nervous CVs being updated there I'd suggest!

Personally I'm just hoping for QF International's sake that there's a sudden change of strategy wrt the 787. They really should be going to QF International, to service point-to-point city pairs as a premium product (and leave the backpackers with J* SIN/HKG/etc to go through their hubs). But I haven't seen even the slightest hint so far that such a logical strategy is being considered; management is too busy with their "we know better" plans :D

[White Knight]

One would think that LHR-bound pax from ADL, BNE, PER etc would fly to DXB on EK metal (QF flight number) and switch to QF1/9 in DXB. It seems to work perfectly fine for QF through SIN so I can't imagine it will be any worse through DXB.



Ahhhh. Not so sure about that! EK has FIVE daily DXB-LHR and THREE daily DXB-LGW, so connection wise from Oz to London it's all sewn up:}
And don't forget the thrice daily to MAN, twice dailies to BHX and GLA and daily NCL.

And the five LHR will all be 380 by end of February 2013......

[Ka.Boom]

These idiots Have been totally out thought,outmanaged and outflanked
Tim clarke has found his Alan Bond.
Qantas domestic is now the handservant of Emirates giving them 9mill frequent flyers.Once these FFs get a taste of Emirates they will never fly Qantas again.
Qantas will lose its high yield J and P class travellers and the LHR Qantas presence will disappear.It will over the next three years disappear from the international stage.
The Board and Exco of Qantas would have to be the greatest corporate buffoons in Aviation history :ugh::ugh:

[ernestkgann]

The qui pro quo should be EK off the Tasman to give QF a fighting chance. That would correspond to QF's capitulation in Europe. At the moment the Tasman is all capacity dumping and cargo. EK won't do that though. The master plan is not to save QF international! Poor old Sri Lankan airlines was and may still be owned by the EK juggernaut. It's now a shadow of it's former self.

[packrat]

The parasite(Jetstar) has killed the host and Emirates are picking over the entrails.Exco and the board have done themselves out of a job.
Anyone working for Qantas who wants to stay in the Australian Aviation industry should leave now.When the realization of what has just happened sets in there will be a rush for the door.Dont wait. Be the first one out!!

[ernestkgann]

I'm sure it sounds good to you Fish because it indirectly benefits you. QF on the other hand seem to have negotiated poorly by allowing EK to continue on the Tasman. Must be hot over there, you're spending a fair bit of time on prune.

[ohallen]

Well this was hardly a fair negotiation because frankly QF had nothing to bargain with when the whole world knew they were on the ropes and desperate for a deal.

In normal circumstances they could have used engaged staff, quality product, good metal and committed customers but this lot threw all of that out long ago.

They did what they did for short term survival and nothing more.
Now the pain will flow for everyone but the top ranks.

[ButFli]

The qui pro quo should be EK off the Tasman to give QF a fighting chance. There is no way that could ever get regulatory approval. You can't openly agree to reduce competition on a route like that.

[ernestkgann]

Why? Isn't there enough competition between, QF, VANZ, ANZ, JQ? QF and EK will now consult on services to NZ. Now that might struggle with the ACCC.

[KABOY]

Isn't there enough competition between, QF, VANZ, ANZ, JQ

Competition between QF and JQ???? The only competition there is who will operate it cheaper.

[TIMA9X]

Ctz3CFREPkE

AJ, Inside Business, he continues to sound like the Grim Reaper , ho hum :ugh:

[Cone of confusion]

"We will change our flights to LHR from SIN to DXB on the 01 Apr 2013." April Fools Day? Coincidence....?? :bored:

[dreamjob]

"Qantas" 787's in 2016? hmmm

[jarden]

Not only 787s in 2016, Joyce says he wants to deploy them from DXB to new points in Europe. I am expecting he means to other cities not yet served by EK but the reality is there wont be much left not served by EK metal by 2016.

[camber]

Hey QF guys, look on the bright side, you can get an interview in with EK while on your DXB layover!!

[framer]

Heh heh, if it comes to it, I´l have BBQ sauce please. Lets give t 12 months though and see what routes QF have, if they have less International departures than they do now then I´l say you were right and I was wrong, no problem.

with all due respect I'm not sure where you've been for the last few years, but this is not the "start" of anything. This has been going on for some time, with aircraft slowly but surely being ferried to the US for disposal.
You´re right, I´m not very close to the whole situation, but I would like to see QF do well. There is so much emotional rhetoric in these posts that I do wonder if people here are stuck in a negative mindset about QF in general.

I'm not sure what aircraft you believe they are going to run up to Asia!
Can they not transfer the airframes from the old routes to new routes? Could they not bring some A330´s over from J star and run them to new destinations ? Could they not have done a deal behind the scenes for new airframes that are currently on the EK order sheet? Could they not delay the retirement of the older airframes? I am not sure what they could do but surely they have some options. I´m not talking about an increase in International flying, just maintaining the mass for a year or three until the 787 turns up. As for the Tasman, a deal could be struck whereby QF runs a daily freighter carrying both QF and EK freight,that way EK can reduce the number of flights to NZ and turn their aircraft for another 14 hour flight rather than do a 3 hour flight to NZ. I imagine EK will have to maintain a presence on the Tasman in order to satisfy the ACCC but it will be reduced in order to utilize the aircraft better.
Better start finding nice tasting hat.
I´m onto it. I´m going to fashion one out of noodles and use a poppadom for the brim.

[Squawk-7600]

... if they have less International departures than they do now ...
Framer start eating that hat. Just off the top of my head I can think of a number of routes QF has pulled out of in the past few years, or has announced it will soon pull out of, namely Mumbai, Frankfurt and Beijing (yes believe it or not!).

Can they not transfer the airframes from the old routes to new routes? Could they not bring some A330´s over from J star and run them to new destinations ?

Yes the A330s are still, as far as I'm aware, coming back from J* to QF. However they will be used domestically

Could they not have done a deal behind the scenes for new airframes that are currently on the EK order sheet? Could they not delay the retirement of the older airframes? I am not sure what they could do but surely they have some options. I´m not talking about an increase in International flying, just maintaining the mass for a year or three until the 787 turns up.

There was no "behind the scenes" deal required. Just, what two weeks ago, QF cancelled a bunch of 787s heading down under and cashed in almost half a billion bucks in the process. As things stand, the 787s aren't coming to QF. Regarding the 747s, they're too thirsty on fuel to compete against the competition running 777 and similar. In another stroke of managerial brilliance, the last is slated for disposal one month after its interior reconfig. :ugh:

As for the Tasman, a deal could be struck whereby QF runs a daily freighter carrying both QF and EK freight,that way EK can reduce the number of flights to NZ and turn their aircraft for another 14 hour flight rather than do a 3 hour flight to NZ. I imagine EK will have to maintain a presence on the Tasman in order to satisfy the ACCC but it will be reduced in order to utilize the aircraft better.

"Qantas" already do run a freighter across the Tasman. Those who should know will know why I wrote "Qantas" ;) EK runs the A380 across the Tasman and gives away the fares in the process as it's cheaper than pay to leave it parked in SYD and cop it up the date by those who have perfected the art of doing so, MAp

You´re right, I´m not very close to the whole situation, but I would like to see QF do well. There is so much emotional rhetoric in these posts that I do wonder if people here are stuck in a negative mindset about QF in general.

Most people even, when it comes down to it, competition want to see QF do well. There is something about the company that stikes a chord with many. However it is, if you pardon the pun, being driven into the ground by management hell bent on doing corporate "deals" instead of actually concentrating on running the show as the very viable and brand and airline it is (was?).

Having said all the above (and in other posts), sonner or later even the biggest idiot would have to wake up to the fact that under the EK deal the best thing for everyone is for QF to get the 787s and run them up to Asia as a premium service. While the 747s get ditched for 777s to service out west. It would be a very good international fleet mix; A380, 777, 787 with perhaps a few A330s thrown in there too. BUT sadly that is just a dream common sense, as that's not the play as it's being called at the moment. Stay tuned however!

[QueenBuzzzzz]

I'm not going to attempt to predict the future, but I would like to bring up some points.

There's a lot of assumptions that Qantas passengers are all frequent flyers. Perhaps this is true in J class, but the vast majority of Y class passengers are overseas pax choosing to fly Qantas for various reasons. I don't believe this will change with this agreement.

I fly on the 380 and I have noticed big changes in the last six months in customer satisfaction, which I believe will only continue. At the start of the year we were pretty level with Emirates, but they have been falling steadily, and we have been growing. They now sit at 6/10 and Qantas are back up to 7.9/10. Our promoter scores are increasing steadily also, we have consistently the best results in 6 years, and with more training by the end of the year, I can only see this increasing.

As the DBX sector will be a 4 day pattern for cabin crew, we will need a large amount of new crew to fill the gap. This is good news for employment. I do believe the AKL base is on borrowed time, and this will also free up flying for Oz based cabin crew.

I also think that the 380 is the wrong aircraft to send to HKG and I wouldn't be surprised if it changes back to SIN or perhaps DFW.

There's a lot of derision about the inequality of this agreement, but until we see the breakdown of how many seats we get to sell on EK flights, I think it's pretty level at the moment, conspiracy theories aside. ( which may well come to fruition!)

[standard unit]

What will be interesting is whether the malaise that appears to be effecting service levels/reputation with Qantas can be reversed.

Seven or eight years ago Qantas was ranked by Skytrax as the third best airline in the world.

Can someone let us know where we rank now........

[QueenBuzzzzz]

The Skytrax awards for best airline is a one off vote. I prefer to read the flight reviews which give an actual indication of dis/satisfaction.

Emirates has fallen as much as Qantas in the best airline award.

[standard unit]

Of course you do.

Sixteenth I think it is.........

[QueenBuzzzzz]

I don't follow? I can't improve my service based on a one off vote. However, when I read negative, written criticism that is specific, I can understand the bigger picture.

The passengers that bother to write a review have generally had an exceptional experience or a terrible one. Those mean more to me than a vote cast because they've received a text from their travel agent telling them to vote.

I can't please everyone, although I try, and I can't change the future, but for the first time in 4 years I feel like my $37 000/ year salary is safe for a few more years!

[DirectAnywhere]

I feel like my $37 000/ year salary is safe for a few more years!

You make it sound like that's something to celebrate..with a barbecue perhaps?:hmm:

[QueenBuzzzzz]

Don't be silly! As QCCA, with a mortgage and children, I could never afford a BBQ! I'm lucky just to have my crew meals to get my iron fix!

[dr dre]

I prefer to read the flight reviews which give an actual indication of dis/satisfaction.

If you read the Skytrax average customer reviews, Qantas has an average score of 7.8 and Emirates of 6.0. Very good feedback on most of the written reviews for Qantas as well.

In fact a lot of the airlines that rated above QF on the 2012 best airlines list have lower average customer review scores than QF. Have a look for yourselves, these reviews make interesting reading:
Airline Passenger Reviews and Opinions - SKYTRAX (http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/seats.htm)

[teresa green]

Jetstar International will never be a disaster, as long as drivers are prepared to fly the same destination as QF drivers, using the same metal, at half the cost. And thereby lies your problem QF blokes, JQ blokes can do your job just as well at a huge saving to the company. They are in a far safer situation then you, as was always the plan since the day Dixon announced the birth of the joey. Bleating about it is not going to help, and the unions have now been rendered useless, you don't mix it with the sandpit. The Kangaroo days are over and its now the camel route. And I feel sorry for each and every one of you who wanted to do nothing more than fly for QF as a career. If you want to stay in OZ I would be putting my hand up at JQ or Virgin as of yesterday.

[framer]

Squawk 7600,

I think you and I agree loosely on what needs to be done, ie new routes to non EK destinations with no reduction in international departures.

The only difference I can see in our positions is that you firmly believe that the management of the company is too inept or corrupt to do it, and I think that they most likely will. Maybe that is because you have been following QF more closely than I have.

Framer start eating that hat. Just off the top of my head I can think of a number of routes QF has pulled out of in the past few years, or has announced it will soon pull out of, namely Mumbai, Frankfurt and Beijing (yes believe it or not!).
OK, so they increase frequency to Sth Africa and Nth America or Sth America to make up for those three you mentioned....why not? Or they start flying direct to a few Asian destinations that are not well served at the moment. Anywhere that EK doesn´t go direct to out of Ausi really.

Yes the A330s are still, as far as I'm aware, coming back from J* to QF. However they will be used domestically
They don´t have to go to domestic, things change, the company is trying a new route so to speak. Maybe they will paint up some of those A320´s they have on order and run them domestically and shift the 330 over to International....why not?

EK runs the A380 across the Tasman and gives away the fares in the process as it's cheaper than pay to leave it parked in SYD and cop it up the date by those who have perfected the art of doing so, MAp
I don´t think that is true. How much does it cost to park an A380 on the tarmac at Sydney? Everyone says that but nobody seems to know how much it actually costs.
Anyway, in 12 months if they have cocked it up as badly as most here think they will I will eat the hat :{

[Angle of Attack]

Jetstar drivers flying the same metal at half the cost? Cite an example of that, it's well known that A330 jetstar crew are earning more than mainline QF at the moment (albeit they are flying about 20% more hours) but it is nowhere near half the amount. But apart from that I agree the QF mainline pilot contract is a sitting duck and will in all probability not exist in several years. Any new aircraft will be offered with a new contract and a take it or leave it for the long haulers. If the 787,s go to mainline in all probability based in SIN on a stick hours contract very similar to jetstar or short haul.

[mohikan]

Teresa.

Understanding that your son is a kook-aid drinking JQ fool doesn't excuse you for posting rubbish on this BBS.

I have multiple contacts in JQ, and I know exactly what they earn, and it is no where near "50% less".

[FYSTI]

Teresa, never let the facts get in the way of a good story!

The following shorthaul EBA's: These are the facts - do you actually know them or are you just repeating the disinformation that you have been told.


Qantas (http://www.scribd.com/doc/72097306/Qantas-Short-Haul-Agreement-2007)
Jetstar (http://www.scribd.com/doc/72097178/Jetstar-EBA-2008) & Jetstar Roster Build (http://www.scribd.com/doc/72097413/Jetstar-Roster-Build-Agreement-2010)
Virgin (http://www.scribd.com/doc/72097092/Virgin-Blue-Pilots-EBA-2007)


Once you have worked through those, and after considering payment for working on a designated duty free day (section 25.5 J* - of which they get 11.5 per 28 day equivalent vs 9 for QF and no extra payment), you may wish to revise your number to a difference of about 5% - John Borghetti's own words -We pay enough says Virgin Australia CEO | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/we-pay-enough-says-virgin-australia-ceo/story-e6frfku0-1226183816945).

Mr Borghetti says there was a 5 per cent difference between the salary of a Boeing 737 pilot flying a Virgin Australia aircraft and an identical pilot flying the same aircraft for Qantas.

There is much more to this than the headline hourly rate. Stop propagating factually incorrect propaganda.

(http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/we-pay-enough-says-virgin-australia-ceo/story-e6frfku0-1226183816945)

(https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=john%20borghetti%20we%20pay%20our%20pilots%20well%20enough&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.news.com.au%2Fbreaking-news%2Fwe-pay-enough-says-virgin-australia-ceo%2Fstory-e6frfku0-1226183816945&ei=SmxNULCyHcvtrQfn_4HoCQ&usg=AFQjCNGnBxdEtFjnUhHkHlWw1j5B28_fhQ&sig2=12bk66buYAELi-uKvwr9-g)

[Taildragger67]

Not only 787s in 2016, Joyce says he wants to deploy them from DXB to new points in Europe. I am expecting he means to other cities not yet served by EK but the reality is there wont be much left not served by EK metal by 2016.

Oh I don't know... Ljubljana, Plovdiv, Ciudad Real... :hmm:

[Transition Layer]

Teresa,

Go back to the cheap beers at the bowling club mate. "50% less" is the biggest load of horse manure I've ever heard. Jetstar is not the answer, it never has been and the quick commands will be a thing of the past.

They'll have to drag me out of my seat at QF, I'll stick it out as long as I can, I worked hard to get here and am still proud of the company (excl. management) I work for, which is more than a lot of JQ pilots can say.

Anyway, back to the topic!

[teresa green]

Oh dear, hit a nerve have we. You know damn well the JQ drivers don't get your wage, and you know damn well that is your problem. My son is no kool aid fool either, he chose JQ over QF and who is laughing now. My other two fly for QF and like many others, wish they didn't. No skin off my nose I did my time with QF on top money for doing bugger all (S/O). Your the one with the problem not me, the world has changed like it or not, and the future for say a 35 year old driver with QF is not the same as it used to be, money or security wise, and sadly for you all that is the way it is now. Regardless of who is paying what, its up to YOU to get top dollar for your services and skills, and at QF you will be pushing it uphill. Going with Emirates almost renders your union useless, now you have Joyce and Emirates pulling the purse strings, and as I said messing with the sand pit is not always a pleasant option. If yelling at and abusing me helps, feel free but it won't change your situation. Look after nbr 1, and as one of you wrote I am proud to work for QF, well don't be, they have not given a ratz about you since the late nineties, not a ratz, they are not nor will ever be again the company they were. Oh and thanks for the gen y comments.

[Squawk-7600]

Firstly, Framer, yes I think we both agree almost entirely on what needs to be done. But what WILL be done is a completely different animal. I just enunciated the state of play as best I understand it based on my experience, what I may or may not know, and statements made by senior management of Qantas. However I could be entirely wrong, and besides things may change (and most likely will).

I must correct you however in that I have never said the QF management is corrupt. That may mean, just for example, talking down the share price such that an outside bidder could buy the corporation for less than NTA, break it up, and pocket the difference. Possibly rewarding the senior management employees in the process if they "made it easier". I want to make it quite clear that I have never suggested such a thing would go on.

Chuckle

Sorry, now where was I. Oh yes. Having said all I have about QF, no I don't think they're dead quite yet. Sounds like a scene from "Life of Brian", "... I'm not dead yet". If, and it's a big IF, the strategy continues the way it has been and the way Joyce has announced it will continue, then yes Qantas International is dead. BUT, deep down I still hold hope that common sense will prevail and they will see that the 787s will need to go to International and be used as a premium product. Given that this lot are fixated on lowering costs and not increasing value, IF that was to happen I wouldn't put it past them basing them off-shore and operating them in reverse down to Australia. But that is getting too far ahead to try to even have a wild stab at. All this will rely on a complete about face in strategy as announced, but that was yesterday, so anything is possible :rolleyes:

Secondly, the little outburst by the member Teresa Green, together with one from another member (admittedly in his case through a misunderstanding) has made me realise that this board is not for me. Sorry chaps, but I'll leave you to it. Teresa's extraordinary outburst, apart from being totally devoid of any element of fact, just led me to realise that there's far too much negativity here to be healthy, and life's too short. I have everything to lose, and really nothing much to gain by posting my thoughts, so it's best to step back for a while. Edit: I see while I was writing TG has posted again, along much of the same toxic vein. TG I don't know who has crapped in your porridge, and care even less. What I will say is that this comment summed it up, "Look after nbr 1..." That pretty much summarises the J* IR culture, and I feel you may be regretting the smugness much sooner that you may realise. Again, I'll just leave it at that.

Good luck to the QF drivers, let's hope it all works out and no hats are harmed in the making of these stories!

Squawking 7600

[framer]

Ahhh Jeez Squawk, if you go then I'm not going to eat my hat in 12 months. I'll just conveniently forget this conversation ever took place. You're right though, there is a lot of crazy talk on this D&G.
Have fun, Framer.

[busdriver007]

Teresa,
Jetstar International is a basket case.....40-50% load factors and discounted fares.....good luck keep it up and even Qantas won't be able to pay the bills. A hell of an expensive industrial fight. Valueair Board have stated they do not expect to return their cost of capital in the forseeable future in fact their words were "it is unlikely that Valuair will have taxable profits in the forseeable future". I guess that is what the QF cash was for...New Board and new management with some aviation background will do due diliegence and shut it down. It may be too late to save the Qantas Group....Your son would do well to take his experience elsewhere...

[teresa green]

Oh dear Oh dear, JQ is travelling quite well, and its not going anywhere, and if they pay so well what the hell are you blokes doing in QF? Like Squawk, I am out of here, just glad I flew when I did. good luck fellas and goodbye.

[Tagneah]

Just wish I could catch up with the QF Skipper I came across in Insomnia the other month that told me my 777 Command at EK is ok but "its not like its a Qantas Command". :ok::rolleyes:

[maggot]

Just wish I could catch up with the QF Skipper I came across in Insomnia the other month that told me my 777 Command at EK is ok but "its not like its a Qantas Command".

yeah, I'm sure that actually happened :hmm:

just how many drinks had you had? :=

[Tagneah]

You were there too, Maggot?

none.

[goodonyamate]

Funny, i would have thought a 777 command was the same as a qantas command!!

there are d*&heads at QF.
Im sure there are d*&heads at whatever airline you're at.

Suck it up. move on.:ok:

For all you people saying this deal is the end of QF, how the hell would you know. I cant stand AJ, but it needed to be done. Personally, I dont think there will be any job losses. In fact, I think there will be some opportunities, particularly in domestic. Couple this with shared BL's (finally), maybe even some in Long haul as the senior scum do their BL's, see how the rest of the crew live, and hopefully pull the pin!!

[Capt Kremin]

JQ int regularly posts load factors up to 10% below mainline. The pax figures released each month are padded over 100% by including domestic passengers in NZ and Australia.
Three months ago a spreadsheet was presented to JQ management which indicated a potential large discrepancy in those figures. After promising to get back to the person making the enquiry in a few days, they stonewalled this person and continue to do so. No explanation of why their figures appear to be routinely inflated. The spreadsheet has now gone elsewhere.

Watch this space.

[TheWholeEnchilada]

Right on cue:
Qantas paints grave picture of global arm Date: September 10 2012

Qantas Airways says its international operations are in ‘‘terminal decline’’ and unable to go it alone, given the disadvantages of geography, high cost base and fierce competition.
The airline told the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) its proposed 10-year partnership with Dubai-headquartered Emirates was an urgent strategic imperative.
Qantas and Emirates today lodged their application with the ACCC to approve the alliance.In their submission, they said the tie-up would improve the international competitiveness of a key Australian business and iconic brand, Qantas.
‘‘A strong and efficient Qantas is in the long-term national interest,’’ the submission said. ‘‘The proposed conduct is essential to underwrite the sustainability of Qantas international and to continue to provide substantial benefits to Australia and Australians.’’
Last Thursday, Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and Emirates president Tim Clark unveiled plans for an extensive codesharing arrangement, reciprocal frequent-flyer benefits and joint marketing, pricing and coordination on certain routes.
The alliance was regarded as a key plank to turn around Qantas’s struggling international operations, which Mr Joyce said lost $216 million in 2010-11 and $450 million in 2011-12.
‘‘The growing magnitude of losses cannot continue,’’ the submission said. ‘‘The proposed conduct will arrest the terminal decline of the international operation of Qantas.
‘‘It is clear that it is no longer possible for Qantas international to sustainably ‘go it alone’ as an international network carrier.’’
The submission said Qantas did not have the ability to compete effectively with ‘‘mid-point carriers’’ based in Asia or the Middle East, given their geographic and economic advantages.
Meanwhile, Emirates operates a number of flights between Australia and New Zealand and that the two airlines offered to formally commit to maintain capacity across the Tasman.
‘‘The commitment only relates to total trans-Tasman capacity, rather than specific city pair routes,’’ the submission said.
Qantas closed up two cents at $1.28.Qantas Paints Grim Picture (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-paints-grave-picture-of-global-arm-20120910-25o4b.html?skin=text-only)

Yet, in Mr Joyce said this in Feb 2012: Senate Transcript (http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=COMMITTEES;id=committees%2Fcommsen%2F80cb805c-1853-4626-87f9-af8627a15880%2F0001;query=Id%3A%22committees%2Fcommsen%2F80c b805c-1853-4626-87f9-af8627a15880%2F0000%22)

Senator XENOPHON: (http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id%3A%22handbook%2Fallmps%2F8IV%22;queryty pe=;rec=0) In terms of the Qantas Sale Act and the whole issue of subsidiaries—and Mr Johnson referred to this on the last occasion—there is nothing in the Qantas Sale Act that would prevent international routes being flown by Jetstar, for instance, and Qantas becoming a largely domestic carrier. There is nothing in the act that would prohibit that.


Mr Joyce : There is no prohibition in the act against all of our international routes being replaced by Emirates or United one day. The market will dictate who flies internationally and who will survive. I will tell you our intentions. I hope that someday Jetstar can be very big, because that would be great for Australia and the group, because these aircraft would be flying all over Asia. We want Qantas to be in the same position. I want to turn around the international business so that Qantas can have the same growth opportunities that Jetstar has. I absolutely believe that you cannot lock into legislation restrictions on Qantas to somehow ensure that Qantas stays in the race, because it will not happen. If you put those restrictions in place, Senator, all you will be ensuring is the absolute demise of Qantas. It has to be commercial, it has to be flexible and it has to adapt. That is the only way you can ensure what you are saying never happens and it is not our intention. We absolutely want to scrape around to be flying to every continent around the world, but we have to have a commercial entity.

[TIMA9X]

In response to Capt Gidday's post on the 7th...
Qantas deal a short-term winner but long-term outlook problematic

September 06, 2012 1:05PM
QANTAS will face a tough battle to win Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) approval of its Emirates joint venture, which will control over 50 per cent of traffic between Australia and Europe and effectively take one competitor out of the market.

ACCC chief Rod Sims told The Australian that it was early days yet in the regulator’s consideration but “obviously we will look very closely at any deal which sees Emirates fares move closer to the higher Qantas fares”.

Tim,

That actually is a very interesting statement from the ACCC chief. Note he does not appear interested in the competition aspects of the deal. Only that the little Aussie battlers, out there in the Labor heartland, can still get cheap fares to Europe. A much easier thing to reassure the regulator about, I would think. As in "of course this new alliance will actually lower Qantas' cost base and allow us to be more competitive, hence lowering our fares". [Well, maybe, fingers crossed].

AJ's blustering all this year can now be seen in a new light. Talking up the supposed losses in longhaul, which have magically risen from $100M, to $240M to $420M to whatever number you want to pluck, has been solely to soften up the ACCC to make the case that this deal must go ahead.

Similarly, the 'falling overseas market share' argument is also all about priming the ACCC case, to make it easier to argue that Qantas must have this alliance, or very bad things will happen to politician's perks. The 'longhaul is a basket case' spruiking is all about that, nothing more.

Given the PR spin that will now gush forth, sounding just like the above [watch the weekend papers] , it will be a done deal. Olivia's no doubt already onto it. Get that rubber stamp ready. today

Qantas Airways says its international operations are in ‘‘terminal decline’’ and unable to go it alone, given the disadvantages of geography, high cost base and fierce competition.

The airline told the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) its proposed 10-year partnership with Dubai-headquartered Emirates was an urgent strategic imperative.
Qantas and Emirates today lodged their application with the ACCC to approve the alliance.In their submission, they said the tie-up would improve the international competitiveness of a key Australian business and iconic brand, Qantas.

‘‘A strong and efficient Qantas is in the long-term national interest,’’ the submission said. ‘‘The proposed conduct is essential to underwrite the sustainability of Qantas international and to continue to provide substantial benefits to Australia and Australians.’’

Last Thursday, Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and Emirates president Tim Clark unveiled plans for an extensive codesharing arrangement, reciprocal frequent-flyer benefits and joint marketing, pricing and coordination on certain routes.

The alliance was regarded as a key plank to turn around Qantas’s struggling international operations, which Mr Joyce said lost $216 million in 2010-11 and $450 million in 2011-12.
‘‘The growing magnitude of losses cannot continue,’’ the submission said. ‘‘The proposed conduct will arrest the terminal decline of the international operation of Qantas.

‘‘It is clear that it is no longer possible for Qantas international to sustainably ‘go it alone’ as an international network carrier.’’
The submission said Qantas did not have the ability to compete effectively with ‘‘mid-point carriers’’ based in Asia or the Middle East, given their geographic and economic advantages.

Meanwhile, Emirates operates a number of flights between Australia and New Zealand and that the two airlines offered to formally commit to maintain capacity across the Tasman.

‘‘The commitment only relates to total trans-Tasman capacity, rather than specific city pair routes,’’ the submission said.
Qantas closed up two cents at $1.28.

Read more: Qantas paints grave picture of global arm (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-paints-grave-picture-of-global-arm-20120910-25o4b.html#ixzz263kdKAhF)


AJ, cap in hand crying poor again..... it never ends...

Capt Gidday your comment, spot on the money..


by TWE
Mr Joyce : There is no prohibition in the act against all of our international routes being replaced by Emirates or United one day. The market will dictate who flies internationally and who will survive. I will tell you our intentions. I hope that someday Jetstar can be very big, because that would be great for Australia and the group, because these aircraft would be flying all over Asia. We want Qantas to be in the same position. I want to turn around the international business so that Qantas can have the same growth opportunities that Jetstar has. I absolutely believe that you cannot lock into legislation restrictions on Qantas to somehow ensure that Qantas stays in the race, because it will not happen. If you put those restrictions in place, Senator, all you will be ensuring is the absolute demise of Qantas. It has to be commercial, it has to be flexible and it has to adapt. That is the only way you can ensure what you are saying never happens and it is not our intention. We absolutely want to scrape around to be flying to every continent around the world, but we have to have a commercial entity. great digging!

ps, sorry for the double up post of the same story... I believe there is a lot in this piece, off the top of my head I can think of many things said at the two senate inquires that may conflict with where things stand today....:rolleyes:

off to review the video tape.... chuckle...

[Squawk-7600]

Ahhh Jeez Squawk, if you go then I'm not going to eat my hat in 12 months. I'll just conveniently forget this conversation ever took place.

Ha, ha, well fine maybe just the occasional comment then. Such as this, just in from big chief;
Captain Kremin speak truth, Teresa Green nose grow long.

[Ollie Onion]

I would be very concerned right about now if I were Jetconnect. Emirates to run the Trans Tasman from AKL and CHC, commitment to only maintain the number of seats on the Tasman, not between city pairs :\

737's earmarked for a return to Qantas domestic, reports from Qantas about Jetconnects losses on the Tasman. Hope that I am wrong.

[Metro man]

How does the tie up affect British Airways ? Previously a passenger could book LHR - BNE on BA/QF. Now with BA only going to SYD via SIN and QF only flying to SYD/MEL via DXB you may as well go straight to EK/SQ/CX and book directly with them all the way if you want to go another capital city.

Also if a passenger wants LHR - PER why bother booking through the QF website if the travel search engine he uses says Emirates are the cheapest. The two airlines aren't pooling revenue so QF would only earn on code share bookings made via their website and would get nothing if a passenger booked directly via the EK website.:hmm:

[Squawk-7600]

Squawk 7600 - so much for your Squawk 7600

Squawk on standby pwr. ;) Not say much, just listen. Also disguise voice so boss man not find out who is Squawk. Otherwise boss take big stick and Squawk get to feel what it like to be Alan Joyce after big mardi gras :eek:

[Bagus]

What happen if AJ decide to ground the airline again,it must be one of the condition Emirates must have stipulate.

[OnceBitten]

Tagneah said;
Just wish I could catch up with the QF Skipper I came across in Insomnia the other month that told me my 777 Command at EK is ok but "its not like its a Qantas Command".

I have over the past couple of months ran into plenty of ex-colleuges from QF in Singapore and all of them have been nothing but supportive and a pleasure to catch up with. They have even shouted beers with their enormous south bound allowances! None of these guys would look at a EK command that way.

IF this did occur to you, It's unfair to try to tarnish a whole groups reputation based on one individuals narrow mindedness. 99% are good guys/girls that go to work daily wondering if they will have a job tomorrow. As stated prior their will be always a few rotten apples in any group of employees :ok:

[Tankengine]

The point that got me was he went to Insomnia sober!!:E:confused:

[donpizmeov]

Tagneah, how do you know there is an EK cripple 7 pilot in the room? He will tell you.

The Don

[haughtney1]

How do you know there's an EK 380 driver in the room.....
He's the short guy with the big watch....in a stick powered electric wheelchair...constantly leaving the boggs...but mysteriously doing a 180 and going back:E
He is also wearing blue spandex outfit with a red cape....

[halas]

Bit like the girl who complained of rape by an EK 380 skipper to the police.

They asked how she knew who her attacker was...

Big watch
Little d!ck
And couldn't stop talking about himself

halas

[donpizmeov]

Good to see the 380 dude isn't the sober bloke in the nightclub who gets upset when the QF fellas don't get impressed with his command ability. :E

[Tagneah]

It's unfair to try to tarnish a whole groups reputation based on one individuals narrow mindedness

Totally agree. I too have many friends in QF and have also had many enjoyable beers on layovers with QF crews that I have not met before. I also agree there is many rotten apples in any airline including one the size of EK. I was just as surprised as many of you here. I can assure you it did happen. The gentleman in question had obviously been going for a while and was dishing out compliments to other airlines crews as well.

I grabbed my first beer, and his SO came drinking with us.

The point that got me was he went to Insomnia sober

you have to start somewhere.

Don, How do you know there is a QF pilot at your party? He'll be wearing his uniform.

[OnceBitten]

Don, How do you know there is a QF pilot at your party? He'll be wearing his uniform.

Love those old jokes/stories, they never get old!

My favourite story was of the United Airways Captain taxying out of Sydney on his last flight.

He apparently said " Sydney tower, this is my last flight and I want you to know that you guys are the second best controllers in the world!"

Silence was followed then the words of "Thanks very much. Out of interest who is the best?"

Reply "The rest of the World!"

Response from tower was only "United XXX clear for take off."

I guess though this guy had never held at Bubin!!!! :E

[framer]

Qantas is expected to launch a daily non-stop service between Perth and Auckland as benefits of last week's alliance deal with Emirates start to emerge.
There we go. Hopefully that is just one of many that will keep the show on the road. If they do that twice a day and also do the same for Adelaide then that is a start. Those flights would be considered Tasman crossings and go some way towards maintaining the total capacity on the Tasman if they wrapped up Jetconnect as Ollie Onion alluded to. That said, long term getting rid of Jetconnect would seem a strange move to me as the have a lower cost base and could actually do the Perth and Adelaide returns from NZ if they had the right aircraft for the job. The fact that they said in the submission to ACCC that they will maintain total capacity and not city pair capacity indicates to me that NZWN will be a reduced service.

[Squawk-7600]

Boss man say Jitconnect lose money, it get big stick too, Squawk not know when.

[cynphil]

Jitconnect could have their pilots work for free and the operation would still lose money! Reason being is that the aircraft utilization is way too low. Of course the plan was to have Jitconnect pilots fly over the ditch and then do some domestic australian flying but this has been hit on the head by Canberra. Bottom line, you have to fly these new NG's to make any money and it doesn't matter what the crew get paid!!! Bringing the NZ NG's back to the motherland will be a big plus and the old classics will get retired sooner!!

[Keg]

Just wish I could catch up with the QF Skipper I came across in Insomnia the other month that told me my 777 Command at EK is ok but "its not like its a Qantas Command".


Exchange the word Qantas with 'longhaul' and you've got what has been said to some 737 and 767 Captains in the past. 'Training fleet' is another. Don't sweat it. There are prats in all companies. :ok:

[Tankengine]

Only got 2 engines too!:}

[Mstr Caution]

Having read the latest news on Qantas' submission to the ACCC. In which Qantas will be forced to become a virtual airline & scale back on international routes.

AJ has proved himself to be more than a one trick pony.

He's already put one over FWA by grounding the airline & triggering FWA to suspend PIA.

Now he's threatening vapourising the International network if the ACCC fails to approve the EK tie up.

[Condition 1]

Yeah, I agree. Extort the Government and blackmail FWA using passengers for ransom. Now the same with ACCC. How can this crook still be going?

[ejectx3]

Underbelly-qantas

[Bagus]

Maybe AJ wants to ground the airline again,ACCC must be nervous,don't worry Alan u will get ur wishes.

[diddly squat]

What about QF23, the A330 to BKK. many of these people stop over in Thailand then connect code share to BA0010 to London. I wonder if this will be scraped as well?

Anyone have an opinion?

[standard unit]

I think I remember someone suggesting BKK to jetstar around the end of the year.

A free kick for Thai :ugh:

[Metro man]

What about QF23, the A330 to BKK. many of these people stop over in Thailand then connect code share to BA0010 to London. I wonder if this will be scraped as well?

Anyone have an opinion?


BKK - LHR via Dubai on Emirates A380. An extra sector compared to BA or Thai direct but if joining from a stop over in Bangkok it will only be a two sector journey rather than three, and if the price is right.....

[gordonfvckingramsay]

qantas admits int ops in "terminal decline" - www.thebull.com.au (http://www.thebull.com.au/articles/a/31343-qantas-admits-int-ops-in-terminal-decline.html)

This isn't the CEO of a publicly listed company applying a not so subtle pressure to the regulator (ACCC) to approve the application for the code share is it? I hope the ACCC do plenty of due dilligence here, Qantas was doing just fine prior to a certain former CEO and his short sighted management style came along and filleted the company because he could. The code share is the only hope I think, but it should be approved on its merits, not because the CEO say so! The arrogance of the man :*

[PW1830]

The last few QF23/24's I did there were no passengers availing themselves of the BA connection north or southbound. Passengers all made alternative arrangements to get to London.

[scandistralian]

Its good news for those of us here in Dubai, it probably means more visits from our friends working for QF. Also I am sure many QF staff will have friends in Dubai they can stay with, rather than paying 100's of dollars for a hotel in SIN if the loads are a bit heavy.

Not sure about the extra super grand poobah 380 movements here though, every time I see one fly overhead the golf course I run for cover incase bits fall off the wing... :}

[haughtney1]

Not sure about the extra super grand poobah 380 movements here though, every time I see one fly overhead the golf course I run for cover incase bits fall off the wing...

Haha Scandi, you need to avoid hitting those 60 degree wedges when it goes over....it's probably been the root cause of all the wing problems :E

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Submissions to ACCC can be viewed here -

Qantas Airways Limited & Emirates - Authorisations - A91332 & A91333 (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1078153/fromItemId/278039)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I like this from the Qantas submission -


Emirates is a fully commercial, unsubsidised business which is independently managed and audited.


But I thought they go their fuel for nothing?

[ohallen]

Hope everyone saw these gems in the ACCC submission.

-harmonising IT systems;
-joint airport facilities;
-potentially joint offices for sales activities;
-potentially other aspects of operations including ground handling, catering, joint procurement and flight operations.

Doesn't leave much left except Executive ranks.

[PPRuNeUser0182]

But I thought they go their fuel for nothing?

Every time they fill up the 380 in sydney, for example, it's free?! :ok:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Hang on they are already advertising a product for sale which they don't have to sell :rolleyes:

[rmcdonal]

-harmonising IT systems;
-joint airport facilities;
-potentially joint offices for sales activities;
-potentially other aspects of operations including ground handling, catering, joint procurement and flight operations.


They all seem like logical items to me, why would they double up on any of these items when they can share and get it cheaper?

[TIMA9X]

They all seem like logical items to me, why would they double up on any of these items when they can share and get it cheaper? I suppose it is a bit like Jetstar using the resources of the mother ship, Qantas.. many believe J* get it for free rather than just sharing.. :rolleyes:

[gobbledock]

Emirates is a fully commercial, unsubsidised business which
is independently managed and audited.How will this work with QF? (a) QF is not managed and (b) QF has scaled back on it's internal audit program, particularly of international operations around the globe, to save money.

[reubee]

Jitconnect could have their pilots work for free and the operation would still lose money! Reason being is that the aircraft utilization is way too low. Of course the plan was to have Jitconnect pilots fly over the ditch and then do some domestic australian flying but this has been hit on the head by Canberra. Bottom line, you have to fly these new NG's to make any money and it doesn't matter what the crew get paid!!! Bringing the NZ NG's back to the motherland will be a big plus and the old classics will get retired sooner!!

Surprised by the comment that the JetConnect aircraft utilization is too low. Don't these aircraft operate 3 or 4 trans tasman sectors a day, so 9-13 hours a day which is pretty good. The problem is the aircraft they are competing against fly some red-eyes upto the islands for some extra cash.

[Keg]

The QF 767 fleet is 'slow flying' at the moment (sharing the hours around all airframes) and last I heard was about 8 1/2 hours per airframe. 9 hours isn't enough. 11 would be satisfactory. Closer to 12 would be the norm for an efficient user. Given the schedules and time zones, I think you'd struggle to get four crossings out of a 737 per day. If you did you'd still only touch on about 12 hours. If you not get 3 crossings then hous are 9-10 and you're struggling.

[The Green Goblin]

The Jetstar utilization I believe is getting closer to 18 hours a day per frame.

[donpizmeov]

Seems EK is trying for similar deal with American airlines.

Interesting times.

The don

[hiwaytohell]

Emirates is a fully commercial, unsubsidised business which is independently managed and audited.Having done quite a bit of work with EK this certainly appears the case. Indeed EK appears to have operated without Government subsidies for its entire life.

But I thought they go their fuel for nothing? Why keep rehashing this drivel... firstly Dubai does not have that much oil as to give it to anyone for free. EK buys their fuel like anyone else!

But where they do have advantages are they don't have the same layers of Government red tape & taxes that QF has. Plus they don't have the "burden" of the Australian industrial laws.

Although EK work their people pretty hard, and the ones I know might bitch about work conditions, they are in no hurry to give up the pay and perks.

What EK do have over QF is a brilliant leader in Tim Clark (and likewise Gary Chapman at Dnata)

[Sunfish]

Rmcdonell (in regard to sharing IT Systems, Facilities, services, etc. ):

They all seem like logical items to me, why would they double up on any of these items when they can share and get it cheaper?

This is where the fun starts...........

What will now happen is that each little empire in EK and QF will vigourously defend its turf in endless wars until one or another side is defeated and absorbed, or management loses its taste for misery and consultants.

The idea that it is "logical" to do this type of forced marriage relies on the assumption that there are economies of scale that can be captured without loss of service quality to each partner. Both sides will strive mightily to challenge this idea. When management gets sick of the bickering they will call in the consultants who won't make much headway either.

Let me give you my experience: When the Melbourne underground rail loop was completed, the tunnel borer lease had six months to run and the machine was somewhere near under Parliament house.

Some bright bastard (with a sense of the comical) suggested it would be a good idea to drive a tunnel under Victoria street below the basements of the Eye and Ear and St Vincents hospitals "So that they could share services and save money".

When the tunnel was finished the fun started - war between the head Nun at St. Vincents and the CEO of the eye and ear hospital over what could be shared and who would give up what.....

Pharmacy, central sterile dressing supply departments (CSSD) both defended the turfs sufficiently and it was agreed that these couldn't be shared. The next target was the kitchens.......

Little Sunfish, the most junior corporate strategy consultant at Coopers and Lybrand was called in to adjudicate because at this stage the respective managers weren't on speaking terms. I learned from the eye and ear folk that their customers were so blind they needed special plates and cups which made sharing impossible. I learnt from the St Vincents folks that they were required to make dying request meals at all hours of the day and night as well as feeding half the homeless in Carlton. You can guess the rest.

This went on for months at great cost in Sunfish billable hours.

The tunnel under Victoria street still exists - Two floors of it. I last heard that both hospitals were using it to store surplus furniture.

Qantas and Emirates will attempt a similar marriage. It should be quite hilarious to be a fly on the wall, but not so much if you are a contestant.

[flying-spike]

"But where they do have advantages are they don't have the same layers of Government red tape & taxes that QF has. Plus they don't have the "burden" of the Australian industrial laws."

So to follow their model Joyce would also have the skulls job!

[Romulus]

This is where the fun starts...........

What will now happen is that each little empire in EK and QF will vigourously defend its turf in endless wars until one or another side is defeated and absorbed, or management loses its taste for misery and consultants.

The only way to make these things work is strong management from the top. The head honcho needs to make the call, and give the two sides a deadline after which a decision will be imposed.

Leave them to it, set up the deadline meeting and if they haven't done it then you commence outsourcing BOTH sides. Give them the heads up that you will be releasing tenders in 2,3 or however many months and will consult with them on the final documentation.

Of course, if they manage to pull off the integration in the meantime then you won't need to outsource, choice is then theirs.

With your hospital example the simple answer to both of those arguments is to draw up a requirement spec, let them know that both sides are more than capable of meeting the needs of the other and you want to know how it will be done collaboratively with a full plan in 60 days.

On day 60 they present their plan, if they bring back a load of crap then you go to the market and effectively replace the management, the odds are that the Spotless' of the world will happily take the workers over, clearly the issue lies with management.

Of course, it's not quite that simple but you get the gist of it.

[Gate_15L]

Given the schedules and time zones, I think you'd struggle to get four crossings out of a 737 per day.

Sorry Keg, I disagree.. Most Jitconnect aircraft leave from NZ in the early morning, to arrive into Australia around midday NZ time, then back to NZ around early avo, then turn around and do another Trans-Tasman to be back around midnight NZ time... :)
i.e AKL-MEL-AKL-BNE-AKL

Personally I believe that the Trans-Tasman is a loss leader, like that $2 bottle of milk at the supermarket.....

[blueloo]

I wonder if the 767 when it did Tasmans was a loss leader....maybe on the passenger fare side of things, but it was chockers full of freight.... Now they have 2 separate companies plus associated overheads doing the Same job(jetconect and EFA)

[DrPepz]

Did anyone read this? QF denied it, but seeing how they seemed to desperately jump at everything (which at the moment was the *right deal for us*) I wouldn't be surprised. But the audacity of trying to break up current partners, and circumventing SIA and going to its parent?

=============
Qantas tried to split Virgin alliance - AviationPros.com (http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10779158/qantas-tried-to-split-virgin-alliance)

Qantas attempted to break up the alliance between Singapore Airlines and Virgin Australia and turned to Emirates when the approach was rebuffed by the Singaporeans.

The Australian Financial Review has learnt that Qantas executives approached senior figures at Temasek, the state-owned investment vehicle of Singapore and majority shareholder of Singapore Airlines, in an ambitious move to press the advantages of a tie up with Qantas.

The approach was made to Temasek, which owns 56 per cent of Singapore Airlines as part of a $S200 billion portfolio, rather than the Asian carrier because of the frosty relationship between management at the two airlines, sources say.

Qantas pulled out of discussions with Temasek when it became clear the management of Singapore Airlines was not interested in an alliance. It decided to pursue the deal with Emirates, leaving the Singapore option off the table for now, according to sources.

Temsaek is believed to still be open to a tie up between Qantas and the airline it effectively controls. The deal would have encompassed the two premium airlines and their low-cost subsidiaries, JetStar, Tiger Airways and Scoot. As Qantas tries to reverse losses at its international division that ballooned to $450 million last year, Mr Joyce and his management team have been reaching out to potential partners around the world.

Another tie up of similar scope to the Emirates alliance in Asia is considered vital to the future of the mainline Qantas brand within the region - a far more important market than any other in the Qantas network.

Over the past year Qantas has held discussions ranging from preliminary soundings to late-stage negotiations with almost 10 airlines, including Emirates, Singapore, Malaysia Airlines, China Eastern and Latam Airlines in Chile. A Temasek spokeswoman declined to comment. Qantas spokeswoman Sophia Connelly said: "There is always speculation about Qantas. We are regularly in discussions with various airlines, both for Qantas and Jetstar, and we don't comment on those discussions."

Virgin took the airline industry by surprise when it announced a long-term strategic alliance with Singapore, the second largest carrier flying out of Australia after Qantas, a deal which vastly enhanced Virgin's appeal to the corporate market it is targeting within Australia.

Should Singapore entertain a deeper alliance or even a more basic code share arrangement with Qantas, it would be considered a tough deal to secure regulatory approval, considering the respective market shares of the two airlines on the route.

Australian Competition and Consumer chairman Rod Sims said on Thursday yesterday that he would closely examine issues concerning the reduction of capacity or price increases stemming from airline alliances.

"We are aware that Emirates prices generally are lower than Qantas prices. Naturally, we'll look at the price issue closely," Mr Sims said.

Qantas has not abandoned its plan to establish a premium subsidiary airline of its own in Singapore, but with that project on the backburner until economic conditions and the company's financial position improves, a partnership was viewed as the most viable avenue to grow its network in the short term.

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce, who has been in Singapore this week for an investor roadshow, said the Emirates tie up went some way to solving Qantas' problems in Asia because it allowed flights to be retimed to better suit travellers in the region, rather than having a schedule based on connecting flights to Europe.

People close to the situation have suggested the Emirates deal should give Mr Joyce greater confidence to be aggressive in Asia with more point-to-point services to Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Beijing and Shanghai.

[framer]

I wonder if the 767 when it did Tasmans was a loss leader....maybe on the passenger fare side of things, but it was chockers full of freight..
Thats a very good point. But I´d be careful what I wished for. Four 767´s across the ditch to Jetconnect would solve both the freight problem, and answer the question about how to operate twice daily out of Auckland to Perth and maybe Adelaide as well. Mixed fleet flying wouldn't be to hard to organize I imagine.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

An article I stumbled across on the Business Spectator website, I have bolded the bit that I found most interesting with regard to QF and it's "management".



As the chairman of BHP Billiton, Jac Nasser knew exactly what he was walking into this week when he suggested the very rich should be left alone. Nasser more than most is in a position to gauge a global move to increases taxes on the world’s wealthiest.
In the US President Obama has resurrected the notion of ‘class war’ with a focus on the lack of tax paid by his Republican opponent Mitt Romney. Romney, a very wealthy former investment banker, has paid an effective tax rate of 15 per cent against 23 per cent paid by Obama.
In the UK the deputy prime minister, Nick Clegg, is targeting the rich with a ‘mansion tax’ that concentrates on properties worth more than $1 million. Meanwhile, Clegg’s Labour opposition is talking about a more widespread ‘wealth tax’.
In France the debate has reached fever pitch after Bernard Arnault, the richest man in France, announced he is looking at changing to Belgian citizenship – a move which would allow him to avoid a 75 per cent wealth tax being prosecuted by Socialist French Prime Minister Francois Hollande. The move prompted left-wing French newspaper Liberation to taunt the tycoon behind luxury goods maker LMVH with the headline ‘Get lost you rich idiot’.
We’re not quite debating wealth taxes yet in Australia but there are clear signals alluded to by Nasser that the Gillard regime is going to target ‘the rich’ in the months ahead.
Two factors point to a ‘rich hunt’: A Labor government consistently vilifying rich entrepreneurs, led by Treasurer Wayne Swan’s attacks on mining tycoons, and rumours of a crackdown in DIY superannuation – where the average fund balance is reportedly $900,000 versus an average balance for the majority of funds held by ‘ordinary Australians’ of less than $50,000.
Nasser suggested the risk now in Australia is that rich entrepreneurs will literally run from a government which they believe is out to get them: They’ll head for Singapore or Switzerland.
The former Ford boss, who is a self made corporate captain who rose from a modest Lebanese immigrant family, can mount these arguments with impunity because he represents the best form of winner in a capitalist society. Moreover, we know his salary ($1.1 million a year from BHP) and we know he pays tax (because he works for a closely monitored public company).
But the answer is not to leave the rich alone: The answer is surely to reward hard work and risk taking and to tax wealth when it starts to represent what they used to call ‘the unacceptable face of capitalism’.
Perhaps the most contentious rich are those who make huge salaries from poorly performing companies. But it must be said there is genuine progress being made here as the second year of ASIC’s 'two strikes' rule really hit home in the last reporting season with a string of under-performing CEOs forgoing pay rises, including Nasser’s own understudy, BHP chief Marius Kloppers. (The rule means executives can be voted off a board if they get protest votes from shareholders two years in a row.)
Ironically, it seems the government is chasing the wrong type of rich: Entrepreneurs such as the mining titans identified by Swan and aspirational investors typified by DIY funds are what makes for a successful economy. Meanwhile, Australia remains free of any form of inheritance tax. As leading investment banker Mark Carnegie put it at the time of the last tax convention in Canberra: “Everybody else gets taxed when they get income, but somebody who gets money from daddy or mummy can then turn around and pay no tax on that.” If the Gillard regime wants to pinch the rich, inheritance tax could be the best place to start.

[Sunfish]

I take issue with the suggestion that the CEOs of poorly performing companies are paid too much.

I got a six figure salary for agreeing to try and manage a "poorly performing company" and I don't begrudge Joyce one cent for taking on the huge job of turning Qantas around, even if I don't agree with anything he is doing.

Being a CEO is an endless procession of "wicked problems" that have no easy solution, if there is even a solution at all. It exercises you Twenty Four hours a day, Seven days a week. Most CEO's don't get to "retire" gracefully either. They are just dumped either for not being able to deal with the latest problem in the business or simply because the Directors like the idea of having a fresh face around.

[Squawk-7600]

Squawk say Sunfish very funny man. Company not "under performing" until Son of Dick and Juice man become Chiefs of tribe. Son of Dick say he not get out of bed for six figures. Big Chiefs never pushed from plane, always given parachute made of gold. Squawk think gold funny thing to make parachute from, but no matter, Big Chief come back to earth as not wise consulting man. Tell mini Son of Dick how he do job he already paid too many beads to do. Chiefs very happy, get make more Chiefs. Indians not happy, not enough Indians.

[dizzylizzy]

LHR slots to remain the same (both arrivals & dep's) work the schedule out from there.

[dragon man]

Am i correct in thinking from the above post that QF paxs arriving in Dubai for connections on Emirates European ports will have a 3/5 hour transit?

[ejectx3]

An smh article recently seems to think so.

[SOPS]

EK has flights departing to European destinations almost 24/7, it would probably depend on which destination. ( I could be wrong of course)

[donpizmeov]

Am i correct in thinking from the above post that QF paxs arriving in Dubai for connections on Emirates European ports will have a 3/5 hour transit?

Not if they catch the EK flight ex Oz as well. This codeshare should work out really swell for QF hey?

the Don

[dragon man]

the don, youve hit the nail on the head i think.

[jarden]

If Jetstar took over all trans-tasman flying off Jetconnect would the operation still loose money? Or would its lower cost base make it profitable.
The travelling public would still select a widebody flown by EK over an narrowbody 320/737 flown by JQ or QF when they know the service they can get on the former. Thats a big issue both NZ/VA and QF face on the Tasman.

[framer]

The only problem I see with that is it assumes Jetstar takes over the Jetconnect customer base but that probably wouldn't happen, many of the customers would go to Air NZ or another major carrier. You mentioned EK but they don't have the frequency to suit trans Tasman passengers. They could run more flights I guess but it's hard to imagine it's worth getting more of their widebody aircraft tied up on 3 hour sectors. I think Jetconnect will stay. It fits with the leaner operation they are aiming for and is also potentially useful in the future for larger aircraft on longer routes with a lower cost base.

[TIMA9X]

Emirates deal will be end of Qantas


Qantas will be split up and sold off at a "rock-bottom price" within four years if its proposed tie-up with Emirates goes ahead, the transport union says.
Flying kangaroo boss Alan Joyce announced on September 5 that his airline had inked a deal with Dubai-based Emirates which would see the two airlines sharing routes, frequent flyer programs, IT systems, airport facilities and other key parts of the businesses.
The tie-up, which replaces Qantas's close relationship with British Airways, is yet to receive the green light from the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC), which is examining the proposal and has final approval.
But Transport Workers' Union (TWU) boss Tony Sheldon says the deal could lead to Qantas falling into foreign hands and ceasing to exist in its current format - and even risk national aviation security.
Advertisement
Mr Sheldon said Qantas had already sold its Adelaide-based catering business to Emirates, and he predicted more parts of the airline would be sold in coming years.
"I've no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the strategy that's been adopted by the present board and the CEO is a strategy that will mean the absolutely demise and breakup of Qantas," Mr Sheldon said.
The TWU has put its arguments in a submission to the ACCC.
The commission has said it will take about six months to analyse the deal and make a decision whether or not to permit it.
Qantas has previously argued that its international operations are in decline and the deal with Emirates will help stabilise the business and be good for competition.
The domestic financial markets wel

Read more: Emirates deal will be end of Qantas: TWU (http://www.smh.com.au/business/emirates-deal-will-be-end-of-qantas-twu-20120921-26bk0.html#ixzz275HZgj2o)
In my view, Stephen Bartholomeusz, historically, has been pretty much a conduit for Qantas PR in the Business Spectator.

we just knew this would be coming......

"A Qantas no-brainer for the ACCC
i
Published 1:18 PM, 11 Sep 2012




You’ve got to wonder why the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission thinks it will take up to six months for it to review the proposed alliance between Qantas and Emirates.

The ACCC has a lot of experience in evaluating proposals for alliances between airlines. Apart from its 17-year history of assessing and endorsing the Qantas/British Airways joint service agreements on the Kangaroo route in the past two years, the commission has reviewed, and approved, alliances between Virgin Australia and Delta, Air New Zealand, Etihad and Singapore Airlines.

It would appear a reasonable understanding that the commission has a solid working knowledge of how the industry operates and what the impacts of alliances are on the Australian market for international travel.

The Qantas/Emirates deal appears a no-brainer. Qantas is going out of the international industry backwards. It lost $450 million in its international business last year after losing the $216 million a year earlier. It has been lopping routes and frequencies in a desperate attempt to reduce the haemorrhaging.

As Qantas said in its submission to the ACCC, its international business is unable to compete or operate profitably in its current configuration and is in terminal decline.

It has cut back its flights to Europe from five a day six months ago to three a day and will withdraw its services to Frankfurt regardless of the ACCC’s decision. It has also said it may also withdraw one of its two services to London in the short term.

Absent the deal with Emirates, the losses and the shrinking of its network will inevitably place a question mark over the continued existence of even its truncated international route network. Qantas can’t justify investing in new and more efficient and competitive product while it is losing money so the business is in a self-reinforcing and quite destructive spiral.

Virgin Australia has demonstrated one blue-print for a diminished Qantas future by creating a virtual international network. Qantas could do the same.

The reason for Qantas’ woes is the structural change that has occurred in the industry in this region, and indeed globally, over the past decade or so as the Middle Eastern carriers like Emirates, Etihad and Qatar have emerged.

Already confronted with competition from hub carriers like Singapore and Cathay, the new hubs in Dubai and Abu Dhabi with their easy reach into a multitude of European ports have steadily stripped market share from Qantas.

Those airlines have a natural advantage from their location, which allows them to feed traffic into their hubs and then aggregate it. As relatively new airlines they have younger and more efficient fleets, they receive some support in the form of favourable tax regimes and government-funded infrastructure and they have significantly lower labour costs.

The Qantas submission said that Emirates’ labour costs, for instance were $US47,000 per employee per year in 2009-10. Singapore’s were $US45,000. Qantas’ were $US92,000.

Looked at from another perspective, Emirates’ labour costs represented 13 per cent of total revenue. Qantas’ were 25.1 per cent of its revenue.

Thus it isn’t surprising that over the past decade Qantas has steadily lost market share. The Qantas brand’s market share has almost halved, from 36 per cent to 19 per cent. Even if Jetstar’s international services are included it has lost nine percentage points of market share, mainly to the Middle Eastern carriers.

If the Qantas group share were aggregated with Emirates’ eight per cent of the market, they would have a combined 35 per cent market share. If this were a conventional merger (which it isn’t, given that there are no equity holdings involved) that level of share in a highly-competitive market with a very significant and growing number of competitors wouldn’t be an obstacle to a deal.

In fact, the ACCC has signed off on Virgin Australia’s four alliances which has created the virtual international network for Qantas’ main domestic rival. Between them Virgin and its allies have a combined market share of almost 30 per cent.

Given that the "counterfactual," as competition lawyers would put it, is the continued marginalisation of Qantas as an international airline and potentially its complete withdrawal to its domestic base the status quo isn’t likely to maintain current levels of competition.

Australia’s "open skies" policy, the entry of not just the Middle Eastern carriers but more recently three big Chinese airlines and regional low-cost carriers to the market means the market will continue to be fiercely contested regardless of whether the ACCC approves the tie-up between Qantas and Emirates.

The Emirates alliance isn’t a complete solution to Qantas’ challenges but it is an important element of the strategy the group is pursuing to stem the losses and get its international business to the point where it can again invest in it and improve the competitiveness of its product.

For a variety of historical reasons, some of which have to do with nationalism, while the global aviation industry is structurally flawed the normal remedy of consolidation isn’t easily pursued conventionally. Alliances and co-operation are the closest substitute.

If Australia is to hope to retain a national flag carrier of any substance Qantas has to be able to complete a deal with Emirates that, while it will improve Qantas’ competitiveness and financial position, doesn’t appear to have meaningful implications for the overall competitive intensity of the international dimension of the Australian aviation market. "

[neville_nobody]

The Qantas submission said that Emirates’ labour costs, for instance were $US47,000 per employee per year in 2009-10. Singapore’s were $US45,000. Qantas’ were $US92,000.

Yeah I'd love to see what was factored in that calculation:rolleyes:

Emirates pay for the housing/education/health of many of its staff. There is NO WAY that everything was factored in the QF submission.

If QF offered a EK deal in Australia, it would be 400k+ package per pilot easy.

[clear to land]

I can give you exactly what an EK 777 (or 330/340 or 380 as we have fleet pay) Captain would cost QF thanks to the calculator on the ATO website. My package would need to be $395k without taking into account school fees-if I include them for 2 kids + medical it bumps it up to just shy of 450k-and then there is the tax free provident fund and the J upgradeable F Staff Travel. BUT I live in the Middle East....... it is what you make of it, personally I like being an expat-but I come from an expat family.

[DrPepz]

Where does QF get its figures regarding EK and SQ's staff costs? Cross referencing to a post I made some months back

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/476613-qantas-employee-costs-its-all-about-aud.html

SQ's labour cost per employee is US$83,000 per annum not US$45,000 based on their 2010/2011 annual report.

[Wizofoz]

Sure, CTL, but the question is the comparitive cost to the employer, not how much ends up in our pockets rather than the ATOs.

Direct cost to EK for me as a 6 year line Captain would be only a little over 220K- less than just about any QF Captain.

The fact that I keep it all is why I stay and they don't have to pay more.

[Twin Beech]

Well yeah, but this just goes to prove that high taxes are inflationary. Don't get me wrong- I like living in an egalitarian society with a robust safety net, but it is expensive.

If the Australian government had a brain they'd realise that exporting all of the highly paid PAYE jobs is idiocy and would have limited access by foreign carriers years ago. You cannot have a socialist society and cold economic rationalism in the same body of policy. Not for long, at any rate.

QF is complaining about the same thing that's vexing retailers, manufacturers and in fact everyone who employs an Australian to do a job that can be done by a foreigner. Extremely high housing costs, very high taxes, very high prices across the consumer spectrum all contribute to wages growth pressure.

But, its the market that we "serve", and since everyone is similarily economically pinched, often unduly price sensitive. This is why a constrained access to local markets policy worked so well for so many decades. Ask Canada why they limit the route approvals for Emirates...its all about local jobs and protectionism.

[Twin Beech]

And on second thought, the " free jet fuel" BS that you hear from time to time is not true. But what IS true is that a national treasury funded by free oil negates the reason for high taxes.

EK may not get free fuel, but they do get very low income taxes, which may amount to a similar thing in an industry with historically poor returns and profit margins, executive renumeration notwithstanding.

[*Lancer*]

Don't forget there are plenty of non-pilot employees in an airline...

[Twin Beech]

I try not to, but I have no first hand knowledge of how the progressive tax structure shakes out for other staff. Maybe over the 32,000 (ish) staff the effect is less dramatic, but the discussion was focusing on pilot costs.

Whats true however is that Australian wages generally do mirror the high cost of living here, expressed as a total of all factors including taxes.

I have to sign off now and go do my clothing/eyeglasses/tool shopping on this layover because its all so much cheaper than at home.

D18S

[neville_nobody]

Don't forget there are plenty of non-pilot employees in an airline

Yes but their package will still extend beyond just the salary even if it was some sort of share house arrangement. I would also hazard a guess that the management folk in EK would also get some sort of housing and school deal.

[Metro man]

Same over here where I work, low taxes (10% of my income) means the company gets to pay less for me to nett an acceptable take home.

Staff get paid what the market says they're worth, not what the union demands.

Sensible government policies recognizing aviation as a key area have ensured continued growth.

Looking at Australia with it's sky high taxes, union strangle hold and stifling government regulation, it's not surprising Qantas can't compete internationally.

[AEROMEDIC]

Same over here where I work, low taxes (10% of my income) means the company gets to pay less for me to nett an acceptable take home.


......and if you pay higher taxation in OZ, you need a higher salary for an acceptable nett pay. This means that when YOUR salary is used as a yardstick for salaries in OZ by the airline/aircraft operator (and they do), the unions negotiate on our behalf (whether you belong to one or not) for what should be an acceptable outcome. Such negotiations benefits both parties.
No company board worth their own salary would agree to an outcome that is detrimental, therefore business practices ,good or bad,beyond that is their responsibility.
Qantas lost the competition edge because they alienated their own customers and estranged their employees. Those are the critical factors and their employee relations practices would do well in a John Cleese training video about what NOT to do.
:sad:

[*Lancer*]

Agreed Neville, but the vast majority of Emirates employees don't live in the Silicon Oasis. Don't forget that although housing may be provided in many packages, the actual costs of providing that in Dubai is significantly different to what it might be in Australia - particularly when the corporation itself is tied up with other local organisations/government etc. Legoland/infrastructure is built by imported Indian workers (OHS rules? Superannuation?), the services are provided by imported Philippino workers... I'm generalising of course, but these underlying non-professional labour costs keep the overall cost of facilities and services down.

The employee value of the package is entirely different to the company cost of the package.

[neville_nobody]

Yes I agree with that, and additional to the lower costs it also funds a local economy for the residents of Dubai.

The problem is that QF keep telling everyone that their labour costs are too high and look at Emirates and how cheap their labour costs are. The problem is that it is not a fair comparison and realistically one that cannot be made as the government and EK are working together for the betterment of Dubai. In Australia QF are being hamstrung by everybody and everything. Hence the high cost of doing business in OZ.

[packrat]

The Cost of living in Australia falls.
The problem is Australians live in a Country bigger than mainland USA but with a population smaller than California.Oz may have a pop of 22million people but it only has 9 million people in the workforce.The tax regime is accordingly punative.The black market in Australia thrive because of this.The internet has been an absolute boon.For far too long Australians have been overcharged for white goods,clothing.technology,shoes and food.The Scottish CEO of Coles could not believe the margins grocery chains were achieving.
World retailers for example have discovered Australia as their traditional home markets have shrunk.
Deflation will bring lower wages.If it costs less to live you need less income to live.DXB and SIN are perfect examples of countries where population compared to total land area equals a lower cost of infrastructure,lower tranport costs,lower food costs and an oustanding public transport network which means less cars and less money spent on fuel.
Australia suffers from the tyranny of distance,large landmass and small population .
Idiot governments haven't helped the circumstances

[*Lancer*]

And therein lies the ultimate problem: the nature of the Australian business environment simply does not allow a local airline to compete effectively in an international market.

There are lots of reasons: employee costs are one, as is taxation (individual and company), the regulatory environment, business legacy, social normalisation... Unfortunately, these factors lead to a strategy to segment and offshore.

[Twin Beech]

I don't think that deflation, in real terms, is on the cards. Globally stagflation for individuals has been happening for quite some time now...or at least in North America. Europe is next. Then Australia. Wages will fall while prices for energy (any number over 10% of household spend is dire, and wildly inflationary), food, education, taxes (Swan is already tilling the ground for increases), and durable goods will drift upwards.

Anyone who was an adult in the 1970's will recall with dismay what that leads to: Ennui, despair,....disco. :cool:

Australian political parties try to buy their way into power with the voters' money. Election promises are sold as either more handouts or reduced taxes, depending on your bent (and your income bracket). Both are ultimately harmful, and expensive in the long run.

I will observe once again that a socialist government (or as near to that as we have) should eschew the economic rationalist model of unfettered competition because the home team is burdened with (legislated largesse) obligations while the foreigners are not, by virtue of either geological accident (EK and its neighbours) or critical mass (Chinese airlines) or bizarre bankruptcy laws (US carriers, for example).

While not an advocate of protectionism in general I do think that airlines, and QF specifically, are a special case given their iconic role as part of a nation's identity and reach. As such they should be given the benefit of a little protection from wholesale competition.

There ought to be a dialogue between Canberra and the airlines so that both sides are clear on the realities of the market, and of the market for regulation as evidenced in electoral liability. Realpolitik, in other words.

[Squawk-7600]

And therein lies the ultimate problem: the nature of the Australian business environment simply does not allow a local airline to compete effectively in an international market.

There are lots of reasons: employee costs are one, as is taxation (individual and company), the regulatory environment, business legacy, social normalisation... Unfortunately, these factors lead to a strategy to segment and offshore.

You'd better tell that to the German auto manufacturers then, they have a far higher cost of operation than any Australian operation yet it seems they have yet to be told of how bad they should be doing!

I'd suggest a slight amendment to your statement: the nature of the Australian business environment simply does not allow a local airline to compete effectively in an international market based on price alone. That doesn't mean businesses can't compete, and be highly profitable in doing so. German manufacturers realised a long time ago they were never going to be able to compete on price alone, hence they have focussed on value ie offering premium products but charging premium prices for them; that represents better value to the consumer. Qantas was perfectly poised to position itself as a premium carrier that also represented value to an increasingly large segment of the market that buys on value and not merely price, particularly given Jetstar was able to fulfil the price sensitive end of the market. A win win situation if ever there was one. Instead years of disgraceful management, senseless "cost cutting" and manipulating the group such that it is a better take-over target has all but killed any premium aspirations the brand may have aspire to.

[theheadmaster]

Interesting example, Squawk, of the German car industry. German corporate governance does not operate to the US/UK/Aust standard of the shareholder being the only party the corporation has a responsibility to. German corporate governance is one that recognises the rights of the various stakeholders, including labour, with labour unions being represented as part of the governance structure.

[mach2male]

Air NZ suffers all the problems associated with an end of line carrier.It operates in the same competitive environment and has a smaller domestic market feed.Poor management sent it to the wall but the astute Rob Fyfe has resurrected it to the point where the airline is not only surviving but appears to be prospering

[limelight]

From Ben, once again the only journalist that seems to get it.

Qantas! Is it being done like a dinner? | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/09/22/qantas-is-it-being-done-like-a-dinner/)

[*Lancer*]

The manufacture of vehicles and the operation of vehicles are two very different types of business.

If you want to talk about the car industry, let's talk about the successes of Australian automobile manufacturers vs their German counterparts... :rolleyes:

[IsDon]

The difference between the Australian car industry and the German one is the Germans have a reputation for quality such that their brand is aspired to. The Australian car industry, on the other hand, has a reputation for producing heaps of sh1t that only a bogan would aspire to. If the mining boom ever goes tits up there will a market flood in Perth of cheap Maloo utes. Priced exactly what they're worth, next to nothing.

The same could be said of QANTAS. It once had a rolled gold brand the envy of just about every company on the planet. Ranking with the likes of Coca-Cola for brand recognition. Unfortunately the Mercedes of the airline world has become just another sh1t box Holden. It could have been so different with competent management that knew what they had.

The fact that it recently took a Middle Eastern carrier, who knows how to look after a premium passenger, to point out to QF management that it is unacceptable to con your premium passengers into buying a QANTAS ticket, on the QANTAS website, only to force them onto Jetstar, shows just how pitifully inept QANTAS management are.

These pricks know the cost of everything and the value if nothing. :mad:

[Sunfish]

Ben is right on the button. Qantas is damaged goods.

It needs a new Board and a competent CEO.

[Arnold E]

The Australian car industry, on the other hand, has a reputation for producing heaps of sh1t that only a bogan would aspire to.I fear that you are the bogan to which you refer. tell me please, do you actually understand what quality is? and please explain EXACTLY, what is the quality difference between, for instance, the German manufactured 5 series BMW and the Australian manufactured Holden Statesman? The first thing you would have to do is actually find a German manufactured 5 series.( they do exist, by the way):ugh::ugh::ugh:

If you want to talk about BS quality lets have a look at the aviation industry. Do you think that all the new Cessna's delivered are top quality? Lets go further, how many NEW Boings are delivered with NO snags, and please dont tell me none.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Squawk-7600]

The manufacture of vehicles and the operation of vehicles are two very different types of business.

If you want to talk about the car industry, let's talk about the successes of Australian automobile manufacturers vs their German counterparts...

When you've finished with the eye rolling you may realise that the business environment, to quote YOUR very own expression, is precisely the same. Indeed even with the extraordinary subsidies offered to Australian (read US) car manufacturers they still can't make a go of it! Why? Well as eluded to above they produce a crap product that is not especially cheap ie it doesn't represent value in the eyes of the consumer (bogans excepted). Now, where have we heard that before?

TheHeadMaster, spot on, and well picked up. It's why it's often used as an example. I happened to pick the auto industry as it's normally well known to all, however I could have chosen myriad industries, especially those operating within the "Mittelstand" model. They recognise the various stakeholders within the business environment, and in particular an adversarial approach between employer/employees simply doesn't exist and is completely counter-productive. The success of numerous extremely high cost of operating countries simply highlights that the Australian business environment is no reason for lack of international business success. Yes including the airlines *Lancer*. It simply serves as a convenient excuse by lazy management so out of touch with the real world that they can't be screwed using their imagination. Too busy making their KPIs to ensure their bonuses I'd suggest :ugh:

PS Arnold it has nothing to do with what the actual quality is, the point is what is perceived by the customer paying the money. Ask any (non-bogan) which is a "better" car, a Statesman or a 5 Series BMW. Good luck with your Statesman :p

[IsDon]

I fear that you are the bogan to which you refer. tell me please, do you actually understand what quality is?

Spoken like a true bogan. I'll bet you drive a bombadore and religiously take the pilgramage to Bathurst every year to watch the taxi racing.

Take your head out of the sand.

[Arnold E]

I'll bet you drive a bombadore and religiously take the pilgramage to Bathurst every year to watch the taxi racing.

Nope, but did work in the auto industry for 25 years before getting into the aviation industry as an employee. Was in the aviation industry for many years as a ppl and cpl before "officially" moving over to the engineering section of the av, industry as an engineer. I think I have some idea what I am taking about, What about you??
Would you care to answer my questions rather than just abuse me??