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Airmen25
29th Aug 2012, 13:21
Hello again fellow aviators, i was in a crappy situation and im new, so i really appreciate some advise from the more experienced. Heres the situation, on descend, we were told to level off around FL340 and reduce speed to minimum due traffic ahead and below for sequencing. So i reduced speed to around greendot, VLS was very near as far as i can remember. Once cleared to descend, i went for open decend, we were obviously too high, but being above FL250, i was thinking hard, i cant extend gears, i cant extend flaps (FL200 limit), VLS was so near my target speed, i dare not use the speed brakes because the VLS will increase, i didn't know what to do, captain was getting pist, started shouting loudly, "Increase your speed a little and use your speed brakes!!!" i said okay capt, so i bumped up abit of speed, around 20 kts if i recall correctly, and started to use the speedbrakes gently, monitoring the VLS, at this point, Captain exploded, he yelled "SPEED BRAKES FULL!!!!, and he slammed my hand down the lever, i was like "Wow!" i was shocked and abit confused, scared because ive never seen anyone done this before. As far as i knew, part of emergency descend procedures is that after twist pull, twist pull, pull, announce FMA, speedbrakes full. Caution using speedbrakes, VLS increases significantly. But i never really studied what happens if you wack it full with VLS shooting up. Anyway, VLS shot up and speed kept increasing to remain above it. At this point i was blur as hell, i wasnt too sure what was happening. Is it ok to do that? what the captain asked me to? and can someone explain to me...what was happening please? thank you in advance

Callsign Kilo
29th Aug 2012, 13:29
I don't fly the bus but your Captain sounds like he belongs in a museum with all the other prehistorics

Blinkz
29th Aug 2012, 13:31
Sounds like a crap captain to me! In that situation you were absolutely correct to be careful as you extend the speed brakes. If you really are looking to be crazy high it usually makes sense to ask ATC to allow you to briefly increase speed so as you can lose the height. ATC nearly always will let you do it briefly and then bring the speed back again. At low speeds the speedbrakes don't do much anyway!

A37575
29th Aug 2012, 14:02
Things never change with some captains or instructors - simulator or real aeroplane. Screaming skulls are still around as this unfortunate A320 first officer found out. if nothing else, it proves that CRM and all that useless politically correct jazz is wasted on such characters because they never change.

Interestingly, I was reading a book called "From Farmyards to Beaufort Bogeys" by a former wartime Beaufort pilot who fought in the SW Pacific war. His name is Col Hobson. In it he makes scathing comment on one of his former flying instructors. In describing his early training as a RAAF trainee pilot on Tiger Moths, he wrote:

"Well, what happened was I learned to fly to the standard required and it turned out to be the biggest challenge of my life. On quite a few occasions , after a torrid sesion with an instructor, I would think `What the hell am I doing this for?' It would have been so easy to chicken out at this stage because all you had to do was deliberately fly badly for two or three sessions on Tiger Moths with an instructor, and you would find yourself transferred, preferably to a safe ground job. One particular instructor on Ansons was a pig of a man. Sharing a session or two with him he obviously thought I did not deserve to get my wings."


Col Hobson is now over 90 yet he remembers that bitter experience seventy years later. The adage "People may not remember what you did or what you said - but they will always remember how you made them feel," is as true in 2012 as it was in the 1940's.

As they grow older, most pilots have a clear recollection of "Bastards I have met" during their career whether airline, military or general aviation. The original poster is to be admired for putting his experience on Pprune.

A4
29th Aug 2012, 14:06
Captain sounds like an ar$ehole. What you did was correct. Slamming full speed brake out can lead to their auto retraction if VLS increases significantly. If as a result of your scenario you end up high in the latter stages of the approach (< 20 nm) DON'T increase your speed - you just end up putting more energy into the aircraft. Slow and configure or ask ATC for a few extra track miles.

The Captain you were with should be ashamed of himself - what a truly awful example to set. Pathetic really.

A4

Dan Winterland
29th Aug 2012, 14:15
The Captain is obviously prehistoric in his attitude and CRM. I would suggest your initial acions were correct. If ATC want to to slow down and expedite, ask for extra track miles. You shouldn't compromise safe flight - not that the Airbus will let you. And don't let idiots such as him bully you.

Airmen25
29th Aug 2012, 15:04
Thanks for the morale support fellow aviators, sadly its just the way it is for most companies in Asia, but for me, i have accepted the fact that time to time, i will have to put up with harsh and old school hardcore captains. So for that part, its disturbing at times but i try not to think about it...

What concerns me the most is how to fix that situation, to be honest, when "we" brought down the speed brakes lever to full, honestly i wasn't too sure if the speed started to increase alongside with the VLS, or the VLS shot up n stopped right before the target speed, all i knew that there was some sort of protection, my mind is rusty and i n im still cracking the manuals to find out what happened, but if any of you guys can explain to me a lil about it, i would really appreciate it.

Also, i appreciate some of the tips given from you guys, i also gave it a thought
Maybe:
1. I could ask ATC for a hold somewhere to reduce altitude and give the traffic ahead a better lead seperation?

2.Or inform ATC of my situation and request vectors for better spacing? as Dan Winterland suggested

3.or try to coordinate with the traffic ahead and ATC, if possible, request the traffic ahead to speed up? (but that wouldn't be too nice would it for the other guy? having to come in fast and configure after that)

What do you guys think? any other options or suggestions? im all open

Pugilistic Animus
29th Aug 2012, 15:13
To the first question as to what to do
Does your company have a no fly list?

Maybe if enough FOs get on it the Chief pilot will take some interst sorry you had to deal with such an dick...but it will help you to know exactly what type of captain you don't want to be!

As to the second you can't coodinate trafic---simply say 'unable' and let ATC deal with it...if you'd like to hold ask..but never put yourself in a hold voluntarily let ATC make you...just ask..and [hopefully] it shall be given unto you..Never let ATC dictate what you need to do--- try to help them when you can but don't let them fly your airplane for you-as many WILL try!

:)

Airmen25
29th Aug 2012, 15:19
Yeah, that makes sense..thanks buddy, another point noted

Pugilistic Animus
29th Aug 2012, 15:27
Anytime partner...;)

one other thing I just thought of keep your learning active that way you can lecture the crappy captains in a pleasant way as to how stupid they're really being...;););)

A4
29th Aug 2012, 16:57
Flap 2, 180 knots selected will create a good sink rate. If you take speed brakes too it'll drop like a stone - SO BE CAREFUL < 4000'!

The secret is to act early. FMGC predictions are all well and good - provided the flight plan is sequenced, descent winds are inserted etc...... but always back it up with the basics i.e. 3 x your height + 5 miles to slow down (10 in the early days!) So at 15,000' you need (approx) 50-55 track miles.

If you can see you're already going slightly high on profile - act on it - early. Also look at the wind arrow on your ND headwind or tailwind - act accordingly. as others have said if ATC ask for something you can't comfortably achieve tell them.

Practice makes perfect - good luck.

A4

777300ER
29th Aug 2012, 17:47
Making a judgement on being high on profile above FL200 is a futile exercise at best. The best thing you can do is shake off whatever stress this overbearing captain caused you, and move on. Next time it happens, do exactly what your instinct tells you and don't worry about drastic measures until you are closer in. ATC will help you lose energy 99% of the time later in the approach.

misd-agin
29th Aug 2012, 20:44
Before you 'hang' the Captain I had a different take -

Thinking about lowering the landing gear? At FL340? Thinking about extending flaps? Brings into the discussion, about using full speedbrakes, the emergency descent actions??? Where's this train of logic coming from?

Later he talks about maybe entering holding instead. On a different thread he mentioned a panicky call to stop because he thought the nose was going to extend past the hold line.

All of this from a guy that admits he's new, and his posts and questions underline that. So it's all the Captain's fault? That's the ruling from the mob that wasn't anywhere near the event?

Had an FO, 10,000+ hrs, get all excited about the hold short line passing below our LINE OF SIGHT. Not that we were going to cross it, but that it was disappearing from our forward field of view. GMAFB. :{ We can't see for about 50' in front of the a/c. So his standard would have us hold 50' short of every line?

For all we know, after several sectors, or days, of similar reasoning or judgement calls the Captain had reached the same state of mind (GMAFB). We've heard one side and he hardly qualifies as an expert, or unbiased, observer.

Airmen25
29th Aug 2012, 22:53
You are right about me being new and not knowing much...infact some may call me a dumb pilot, for me, i don't care, im here to learn more and to get better at what i do, that is the reason in the first place i started asking questions.

Everything i told regarding the situation is as honest as i can remember. As i also said, i try not to think about the captain's part about exploding and getting pist at me, what matters to me is how to fix that situation if that were to happen again. I think most of the comments here isn't blaming the captain about the situation, but more about the way the captain carried himself, attitude wise and self control over emotions, and i strongly agree with all of them that he was going overboard at times. But like i said, all those isn't in my best interest or my research, its all about solving the problem, so in the end, captain won't get so pist off when the same situation occurs to us.

So i appreciate it if you don't take it so personally captain. I am here to learn, so if you will, teach me a bit on how to solve that situation, care to share some light about it captain?

stilton
29th Aug 2012, 23:03
'
Had an FO, 10,000+ hrs, get all excited about the hold short line passing below our LINE OF SIGHT. Not that we were going to cross it, but that it was disappearing from our forward field of view. GMAFB. We can't see for about 50' in front of the a/c. So his standard would have us hold 50' short of every line? '


Let me understand you correctly.
I think you are saying you passed the hold short line while taxiing as it went below your line of sight.


Don't know what type you are operating but most transport Aircraft Cockpits project a fair distance ahead of the nosewheel so you are past the hold line.


Or do you think, like some that if the nosewheel is short of the line then you are ?!

Pugilistic Animus
30th Aug 2012, 00:11
Airman25 Have you ever read DP Davies' Handling The Big Jets...I will tell you it really will help you with these matters in the future....;)


:):):)

aerobat77
30th Aug 2012, 01:56
hey!

first- know that 99% of the replys are from non real commercial aviatiors even when they claim since its an open anonymous forum. second- do not get you rush by atc, there is always a second to think about it. third- follow the captain and discuss it after the event. you learn from every flight - the same he does !

try to keep relaxed, it comes with experience, cheers !

framer
30th Aug 2012, 02:12
You are never going t change the Captains behaviour so concenrate on the things that you can influence.
1/ Your reaction to a shouting Captain (are you happy with your reaction, what will you do differently next time etc etc)
2/ Your knowledge. (You are already addressing this by asking a question on here but that will never be as effective as getting into your books and understanding your aircraft.)

misd-agin
30th Aug 2012, 02:15
stilton - w/b aircraft. We were obviously short of the hold short line. Radome short of the line. Nose gear is 8-10' behind us. Radome to nose gear is 20'.

During pushback we can never see the tug. On the walk around it's obvious that the tug is forward of the end of the radome.

Recent FO said "I can't get over how it looks like we're going off into the grass. I know the nose gear is far behind us but I still can't get over it."

With a blind spot extending 50' ahead of us we never see the taxiway edges immediately ahead of us while doing 90 turns on taxiways. The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet.

Pugilistic Animus
30th Aug 2012, 02:29
first- know that 99% of the replys are from non real commercial aviatiors
even when they claim since its an open anonymous forum


Just two questions about your statement here

If you think 99% of us are fake why do you bother even coming to here?
If you really can't tell who knows what they are talking about or not don't you think that you may have chosen the wrong profession?

Just saying...:zzz:

bubbers44
30th Aug 2012, 02:30
Sometimes bad ATC handling puts you high and in a bind as we were coming into Seattle one day in icing conditions. I had to hold a higher power setting because of the anti icing.

They finally cleared us down on downwind in an MD80 so to make a decent approach used the speed brakes to full. The captain said don't use the speed brakes, they buffet too much so I stowed them. We are really high so he says when do you want to turn base. I said I don't know because he wouldn't let me fly with the icing conditions with speed brakes so extended about 14 miles to get down with the anti ice on and no drag. I was irritated enough I didn't care if I had to fly into Canada to turn.

In your situation I probably would have increased 20 knots and used speed brakes if ATC could authorize it. If it makes it impossible because they want you to stay slow and expedite decent just say it is one or the other.

Once you become a captain life gets so much better. Hang on. When an FO asked me which way to go or how to descend I just said I'm operating the radio, you are flying.

bubbers44
30th Aug 2012, 02:43
Of course you help your FO learn if he wants help but leading your FO around using your style intices him to try to read your mind, not do what he wants to do. He is going to be a captain some day and letting him figure his own way around a thunderstorm is much better then leading him around it every time. He needs confidence in his own judgement, not trying to please the captain.

misd-agin
30th Aug 2012, 02:46
Airmen25 - it's been my experience the less confident the pilot, or Captain, the smaller the tolerance window they have. It's a tough situation to work under. But it can also be viewed as a challenge. If you can stay within the 'box' that keeps them more relaxed you'll operate better as a team.

I wish there was a perfect answer for flying with a difficult or even unreasonable Captain. Part of experience is learning how to 'read' the Captain. No, they don't have a license to be Captain Quegg(google 'The Caine Mutiny') but each crew, or Captain, is slightly different. A good Captain will adjust just as good FO's adjust to the dynamics of a different crew.

You mentioned that you were on a trip as a second FO. Watch the more experienced FO's when you're the second FO. It can be a great learning experience. I'd pay extra attention to see how the Captains, or more experienced FO's, deal with situations that are slight different than standard operations. That's the value of experience, turning potentially interesting situations into anticlimactic events.

bubbers44
30th Aug 2012, 03:14
ma, you are right on about captains that are weak. Their window is very narrow. I hated flying with them or with the ultra egos so swore I would never do it when I got in the left seat. We were a small airline flying 737's with pilots expected to be captains in a few years so all had experience and it was a small fun flying club. Everybody knew how to fly jets when hired.

Then we got bought by the mega airline everything was different. The mega airline FO's prefered flying with us because it was such an easy day. Just fly and enjoy the job. No BS.

We figured out how to make the mega airline job fun too.

bubbers44
30th Aug 2012, 05:07
I tried to always fly the first leg with a new guy only because he would know what I preferred. Then he could do anything he wanted within reason. We had some very aggressive pilots and conservative pilots so it was polite to show him what you preferred. Most complied.

Airmen25
30th Aug 2012, 05:17
Yeah i heard, its a very good book, ive been planning to get it, but at the mean time ive gotta cover my FCOMs first, and thanks very much for the advise and tips. As for the other guys who are talking 101% BS, your replies are a waste of space and my time, if you're going to keep criticizing me and others who are giving feedback regarding the questions in the first place, i suggest you go join a "waste my time" or "im too pro for amateurism" forum.

Airmen25
30th Aug 2012, 05:31
misd-again: "The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet."

It was an A320

stilton
30th Aug 2012, 06:50
'stilton - w/b aircraft. We were obviously short of the hold short line. Radome short of the line. Nose gear is 8-10' behind us. Radome to nose gear is 20'.

During pushback we can never see the tug. On the walk around it's obvious that the tug is forward of the end of the radome.

Recent FO said "I can't get over how it looks like we're going off into the grass. I know the nose gear is far behind us but I still can't get over it."

With a blind spot extending 50' ahead of us we never see the taxiway edges immediately ahead of us while doing 90 turns on taxiways. The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet'


Misunderstood you, there are a few Pilots out there that think they are complying with the hold short line with everything forward of the nosegear hanging over it !

reubenjosephdsouza
31st Aug 2012, 08:26
Bubbers44 really like your reply, and yes that kind of captain will really help and encourage his f/o to be a good capt some day,when his time comes. If we as f/o s get a capt who lets us learn from our mistakes ans well as teach us and build our confidence we would really appreciate it us like others have said not all fingers are alike , and most of them aren't there to help u out, so for a new f/o u have to figure things out the hard way initially.

Airmen25
31st Aug 2012, 10:11
reuben Bubbers44 really like your reply, and yes that kind of captain will really help and encourage his f/o to be a good capt some day,when his time comes. If we as f/o s get a capt who lets us learn from our mistakes ans well as teach us and build our confidence we would really appreciate it us like others have said not all fingers are alike , and most of them aren't there to help u out, so for a new f/o u have to figure things out the hard way initially.

Too true....thats why i said, i just learn to accept it

ggofpac
31st Aug 2012, 10:40
How high were you actually? approx track miles when u were cleared to descent below 340?

Anyway.......since it's ATC "fault" cos they kept u high and restricted your speed...just inform the ATC that either u increase speed or due to the restricted ATC speed, you will be requesting extra track miles to lose height.

Depending on how high you are....increase speed might not be enough to regain profile. In that case, just request extra track miles to lose height. They won't force you to do an approach if you warn them you are too high.

Airmen25
31st Aug 2012, 10:50
I can't recall exactly what was the track miles left, i did use my mental calculation 3Xtrack miles, due low speed and also crossed checked the yoyo, both indications were high, yoyo way off, my own calculation aprox 2000ft to kill, as for ATC's part, it didn't crossed my mind at that time about the option u mentioned, because i was too fixated on trying to kill height by my own, its the first time i encountered such a situation, being high and having to slow down and at the same time having to kill height. Many other seniors did told me that the ATC at our home base, does not do a very good job for separation as well in the past, but ive never got a taste of it till the other day. Well, from all the tips and advise and calling up another captain for advise, im starting to learn about how to deal with that situation.

burgerbun
31st Aug 2012, 11:52
2000' too high with 50nm to run is ok, but not with 15 to run... Don't know where you were so can't comment. It's obvious to me your stress was stressing the captain, not much you can do as you'll see through your career you'll fly with pilots actually scared of flying! As others have said, watch others fly and learn from them, mentally fly the a/c with them and see what they do differently and why, judge from the outcome, even take notes of your own shortcomings and think about them doing chair flying, or trying things out on your pc with flight simulators.
Don't worry we've all been there, but as for me, I'm proud to say I learn every day from everyone I fly with;)

Airmen25
31st Aug 2012, 13:41
I did a few observation flights already, infact, i requested extra observation flights and went for more than the original scheduled to the point the scheduler said i needed to town down, i did took down notes, i did radio calls, i did ask questions, i treasured every second i got during those times. It indeed helped me alot when i went for line training, it helped me sort out my paperwork, improved my scan flow, my SOP and much more, however, there is only so much you can get from the observation flights, out of all of it that ive done, most were high speed descents, and there wasn't a situation where i recently encountered, thats the sole reason why i couldn't cope up with the situation, its my first encounter. But like everyone else, im also learning everyday.

Honestly speaking, when i explained about the situation to everyone here, my main point was to explain the scenario as honest as possible and primarily to get information on how to solve the situation regarding being high and slow, and wether it was ok to deploy full speedbrakes with the VLS so near? not to crucify the captain. However, it seems that some people get offended by the scenario i described, and keep talking about the CRM part about it. For me, during that time, after being confused awhile, my mind was back into trying to get the bird down and configuration, also monitoring the traffic ahead on the ND. My mind was focused on the task, not so much about how the captain treated me.

But if people want to keep talking about the captain and making it a hot topic. Heres my take on that, firstly i really wished he would have just gave me a small reassurance to his decision before slamming my hand down the lever, like say "don't worry, its ok, just do it" or "Vls will drop as we decend, do it now", then i would have, no questions asked at that time, no doubts. However, what he did at that spilt second, didn't seem logic to me, therefore i was hesitant, it felt like he was ordering me to walk across a highway with speeding cars going by, if he would just told me "don't worry they will slow down to let you cross, cross now" i would have, what im saying is just an example of how i see it. Maybe it was my fault, not knowing the aircraft systems well enough, but im trying and learning.

As for my personal feelings towards the captain, a part of me is sad, a part of me is dissapointed by the way he trained me and a part of me is also dissapointed with my own ability to handle that situation at that time, but a captain will always be a captain, and i respect that, i will still salute him for his rank, he earned it, but i do not salute him as an individual, not anymore and whoever has a problem with that, im sorry, but thats how i feel and i believe i am entitled to my own personal feelings. As i said also, i try to put that part about the captain behind me, and i believe i have gathered enough info on this matter. Tonight, im heading to the academy with some of my batch mates to study, discuss about issues in flight and to practice the FMGS software. Once again, thank you everyone for their thoughts and opinion, and if possible i would like to put a full stop to this thread.

axelFR
31st Aug 2012, 14:57
Hi,

So always bear in mind that you descend way better at high flight levels than below 10.000feet!
So If you are high @ FL250, at a low speed, initially select your speed and put it up! Select 300kts, you will decend believe me!
Then, if you re still way too high! Use half Speed brakes!
Then if you re still WAY too high, use FULL speed brakes and disconnect the A/P because remember with the A/P ON, the speed brakes will only extend to half deflection!
If all of this is not enough... well think about other options!
-Request MORE track miles (if vectored)
-Ask to enter a hold
Bear in Mind ATC is there to help you out! If you are not comfortable with their vectors or the way they will shortcut you TELL THEM UNABLE!

I hope it helps!

Below 10.000feet, as stated in an above post, config 2, Non standard L/G down, you will "fall" like a stone!

All the best, and happy flying!;)

CONF iture
31st Aug 2012, 16:24
Then if you re still WAY too high, use FULL speed brakes and disconnect the A/P because remember with the A/P ON, the speed brakes will only extend to half deflection!
Can you you back up such statement with a FCOM reference ?

Luckyguy
31st Aug 2012, 17:06
FCOM

DSC-27-10-20 P 8/24

Regards

Pugilistic Animus
31st Aug 2012, 18:19
Airman25 I truly believe when you have more time that HTBJ will sort out all of these problems with energy management on the approach for you---it's a very easy and approachable book and many an experienced jet pilot's 'Bible'...Mr. Davies has a great and slightly sarcastic sense of humor too...:ok:

I know you're busy with getting to grips with company procedures and such but please do try and read our Bible it may even make the procedures far less abstract ...


:)

SW1
31st Aug 2012, 19:04
How about this for a start?

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/safety_library_items/AirbusSafetyLib_-FLT_OPS-DESC-SEQ02.pdf

In addition your real "Bible" is the FCTM

Airmen25
31st Aug 2012, 19:38
axeIFR: i see, yeah i missed that point about AP off with speedbrakes full...point noted, but about bumping up my speed to 300kts, like i said, i couldn't do that time due traffic ahead, lower than me. Thanks for the tips and straight to the point summary.

Pugilistic: Should have ordered that book when i had the chance, gotta look for it again, its hard to get those kinda books in Malaysia unless ordered via internet, but a lot of seniors recommend it, must be really something that book. Thanks.

SW1: Wow...thanks for the link, good stuff!

Pugilistic Animus
31st Aug 2012, 19:41
Please take a moment to enjoy this observation flight with this Handling the Big Jets -trained Flight Crew--as this is the way to 'do it' of course exact SOP vary.... It was hard to find this video but I think it's good to see
Aviation Video: BAE Systems One Eleven - Bath Travel (http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_BAE_Systems_One_Eleven-Airline_Bath_Travel_Aviation_Video-2395.html)

'there you are" BTW does anyone else notice that they painted the Ramp Centerline wrong...:}:ouch:

The Bible of fundemental learning wrt jets HTBJ

The Airplane's Bible is the Flight Manual

and The Word is the Training Manual...

:}:}:}

misd-agin
31st Aug 2012, 21:47
2000' above profile(path), at FL340, is nothing.

Idle, full speedbrakes, redline, from FL370 to configured, that's high. :eek:
:)

Pugilistic Animus
31st Aug 2012, 21:59
There's much excellent advice from plenty of experienced 'hairy asses'- yes even the lady pilots...:}...and 'grey beards' on CRM, ATC and Energy management and such ...:ok::ok::ok:

But since you're on the Bus,

While I have no experience with Airbuses but as an aerodynamicist I do understand their FBW control logic pretty well...if I may refer you to this thread regarding some factors that maybe helpful for an Airbus pilot in general

http://www.pprune.org/questions/494107-efis-instrument-scan.html

:)

sudden Winds
1st Sep 2012, 02:38
Hi,

A couple of thoughts probably already expressed.

1) ATC should have probably instructed you to start descending a little earlier. They know planes' descent capability is less at flaps up, or green dot speeds, so the first one goes to them.

2) If ATC "screws up" by having you slow down while too high, at some point they´ll realize AND they´ll fix it with a 360° turn, a vector...etc..

3) You can always inform ATC that your rate of descent at low speeds will be low AND/OR use a few more kts to stay away from augmented VLS due to spdbk, and extend it.

Now all that being said, this situations happen often and if this guy yells at their right seating colleagues for being cautious like you were, then he needs to do something else besides flying. If you had increased your speed a few knots to use full spdbk he would have probably yelled at you saying "ATC said slowest speed you "%$&!"%($"#%".

As a first officer, it´s hard to guess what each captain you fly with wants you to in these situations.

I am a left seating ignorant, but what I do is I politely tell them what I want and spare them the guessing, when these things happen and I realize the other guy is in doubt.

If there is more than one correct or acceptable course of action (99% of the time) you can just check with your captain which one he prefers.

Enjoy your flying and disregard this :mad:.

jriv
1st Sep 2012, 06:36
But i never really studied what happens if you wack it full with VLS shooting up. Anyway, VLS shot up and speed kept increasing to remain above it. At this point i was blur as hell, i wasnt too sure what was happening. Is it ok to do that? what the captain asked me to? and can someone explain to me...what was happening please? thank you in advance

To answer your original question:

You had GD bugged, in Open Des. When the speed brakes deployed, Vls increased above GD. The autoflight system now considers Vls the target airspeed since it is above the bugged speed. To maintain that higher speed with the thrust fixed at idle (THR IDLE in the autothrust column of the FMA), the system pitched down. Had you been in SPEED mode (say, SPEED, V/S) the system would have increased thrust to maintain Vls.

Is it OK to do that? Well, the system kept you safe, but it is piss poor airmanship.

With several thousand hours in both the left and right seat of the A320, I am still learning. This forum is an excellent source of info. Good luck in your career.

ggofpac
1st Sep 2012, 08:29
......if you are 2000' high on normal profile at FL340.... is really not a problem......hmm i'm really surprised to hear the other guy on your left is worried.....:confused:

framer
1st Sep 2012, 08:58
1) ATC should have probably instructed you to start descending a little earlier. They know planes' descent capability is less at flaps up, or green dot speeds, so the first one goes to them.

2) If ATC "screws up" by having you slow down while too high, at some point they´ll realize AND they´ll fix it with a 360° turn, a vector...etc..


Sudden winds, although ATC may be that proactive in some parts of the world, in many parts they are not. In fact, in some parts they are not even proficient in the basics of controlling let alone what you describe. A few weeks back I was inbound to a SE Asain country and the airport closed due to the movement of a VIP aircraft. It was NOTAM´d and expected, however, ATC struggled to organise the five or six inbound aircraft into holding patterns and after a few minutes simply stopped talking and we pilots broadcast our intentions to each other in order to remain separated. Fifteen minutes later when the VIP movement had finished ATC came back on air and started controlling like nothing had happened.
Personally I find it best to assume that ATC will drop the ball and that way I am caught out less often. There is no point (in my opinion) of thinking about how ATC dropped the ball because the final responsibility lies with the crew. That responsibility cannot be transferred to a controller.

sudden Winds
1st Sep 2012, 16:48
Framer,

I knew this "crew responsibility" thing would come eventually.

In the situation described, ATC seemed to be knowing what they were doing. I am not suggesting letting them flying you into a volcano, what I am saying is that you cannot always discredit their instructions and think that they are a bunch of clueless public employees sitting behind a video game. If they want you to slow down, there is a reason for that, that is their first priority, now...if that leaves you a bit high you can always inform them before your excess altitude becomes a problem. Keep in mind that whatever you do to lose that altitude will need to be coordinated with them, unless you just lose it by increasing rod without increasing speed.

Trust me, it´s not always that bad an idea to let them do their job, while monitoring what they are doing for safety and logic.

Hope I made myself clear(er).

A few months ago someone posted a comment asking who determined runway in use and approach to be flown. I said that ATC will normally inform of a rwy and app in use, based on winds, wx conditions, NOTAMS, etc and it was up to PIC to make sure rwy and app were ok for the airplane. Well, my english must be terrible because I received a pvt message saying that I was wrong, that it was my responsibility bla bla blah. Well, offreakingcourse it´s my responsibility!!! the minute I step inside the airplane I am responsible, I simply can´t just tell everyone else how to do their job. Oh well...never mind.

theflyboy
1st Sep 2012, 19:59
just request atc for more track miles simple or to hold to lose height. like many of the great captains here have mentioned. don't put yourself in a worse situation. as for now keep it simple : ). peace.

DASS
1st Sep 2012, 22:36
I´d really like to fly with this captain. A true team.

IBERIA A340-300 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZb8ywaHlT4)

Wish you the best Airmen25

misd-agin
2nd Sep 2012, 01:12
2000' 'high' at FL340 is nothing. Today, descending through about FL230-240, we were 2400'+ above path with a 250/12000 restriction ahead of us.

FLCH(Airbus open descent??), idle, increased IAS from 280 to 320-325, and the increased drag from 320-325 vs. 280 KIAS used up the 2400'+ of vertical track error(above VNAV PATH).

If you were 2000' high at FL340 and the Captain demanded full speedbrakes he's pretty insecure about his ability to manage the airplane's energy.

Love_joy
2nd Sep 2012, 09:52
Airmen25,

Welcome to the forum, and indeed the industry. As has been pointed out, if you can cut through the BS on here, there are some really great guys contributing on here, and it's always a good place to come for constructive conversation and letting off steam.

Myself, I am currently operating the DH8, but I have spent 2 years on Embraer RJ's.

One great piece of advice I was given has stood me well. As a cadet of a major European charter company, I was told in the early days that they wanted more confident, assertive First Officers on the line. They were finding new FO's being too docile, and not standing up to Captains even when they themselves were blatantly wrong.

So how does this translate to the real world? I guess, for you right now; hit the FCOM and your Operations Manuals. Absorb all that you can and leverage your other company crews for advice, "what would you do if..." etc. Armed with job knowledge and a little experience, your confidence will grow naturally.

Share your mental model. Possibly (my opinion, possibly wrong) your hesitation meant the Captain felt he had to do something. When he suggested using Speedbrake too close to VLS, that was the opportunity to explain you were not comfortable doing that. Always let the other guy know what your thinking, or planning.

Don't over complicate matters either. Energy management, especially in a slippery jet is an art form. Getting high and fast is an issue and will happen to you again. You can recover slight deviation by either killing the speed, or the height, and some line experience will tell you how much is possible.

In your example, would an extra 5 miles have solved the problem? 5 miles is what, 2 mins airborne? Surely the better outcome than forcing the matter and having to go around because your above the profile. There is no shame in this!

Lastly, debrief! A quick chat with the other guys, even Capt. Frontbottom, with a "what would you have done in that situation" could result in some interesting answers. In the early days, take notes of these Golden Nuggets, or keep a training diary and you'll find yourself up to speed in no time.

The early days can go past in a blur, don't get hung up on one guy being unfairly harsh, and try and enjoy it!

Pugilistic Animus
3rd Sep 2012, 01:54
We can certainly all learn a thing or two from Charlie Culp...make no mistake...please don't let me distract you gentlemen...Yes it's absulte true...Speed Breaks Airplanes...:)
nice Airbus Flight...:)

Saw him live at Calabro field Twice Quite a Show in real life...:ok:
Piper Cub Stunt Pilot - Charlie Kulp - YouTube

Blip
4th Sep 2012, 04:11
I fly the B737 but I imagine the speedbrakes on the A320 have approximately the same performance. i.e. they reduce the lift/drag ratio by about 30% when fully extended.

Some observations that I have made over the years that have served me well...

Whatever your descent speed is whether it be 210 kt, 250 kt, 280 kt, 300 kt, or 320 kt, when you extend the speed brakes, the descent angle will increase by 1 degree.

e.g. At 210 kt IAS your descent gradient will increase from say 2.8 degrees to 3.8 degrees.

At 250 kt IAS your descent gradient will increase from 2.9 deg to 3.9 deg.

At 280 kt IAS your descent gradient will increase from 3.0 deg to 4.0 deg.

At 300 kt IAS your descent gradient will increase from 3.2 deg to 4.2 deg.

At 320 kt IAS your descent gradient will increase from 3.6 deg to 4.6 deg.

If you use the 1 in 60 rule, 1 degree = 1 nm per 60 nm
1 nm = 6000 ft (actually it's 6080 ft)
therefore = 6000 ft per 60 nm = 1000 ft per 10 nm.

In other words, at virtually all speeds, full speed brakes will increase your descent profile by 1000 ft for every 10 nm.

So if you are 2500 ft high on profile, if you remain at the speed programmed in the FMC, it will take you 25 nm to get back on profile. (Give or take for the effects of wind. More distance with tailwind, less distance with a headwind).

Now you could keep thrust at idle, increase airspeed, and the aircraft will zoom down to a lower profile, but the total energy will remain the same. You will simply be converting potential energy into kinetic energy. Your descent angle will increase a little once the airspeed has stabilised at the higher value, from say 3.0 deg to 3.6 deg but you will have to slow down again at some stage and this will convert your increased kinetic energy back into potential energy.

You will hear people say that speedbrakes are not effective at 210 kt but this is not true. It's just that because you are flying at such a relatively slow speed, the effects seem slow too. But I bet you if you were on final approach at 20 nm and you were 1000 feet high, speed brakes alone would have you back on glide slope at 10 nm to touchdown. (i.e. 1000 ft per 10 nm) It's just that it would take around 3 minutes to do so which would seem to take for ever! But don't forget you're only travelling at around 3.5 - 4 nm per minute!

:)

P.S. The descent gradients given above are not absolutely correct in that they depend on the actual gross weight at the time. As weight increases, the best L/D airspeed increases, therefore those gradients for a given airspeed would vary a little from flight to flight as the gross weight varies from flight to flight. But the extra 1 degree descent gradient is pretty consistent give or take 0.1 degree.

PJ2
4th Sep 2012, 07:55
The back of the Jepp CR2 computer gives rough descent rates from groundspeed...set the TAS index at the groundspeed, find the 3deg mark (for a nominal 3deg descent path), on the inner scale and read the rate of descent on the outer. 250kts GS = 1300fpm. If you don't have a Jepp CR2 computer, you should. ;)

Quick method...GS/2 x 10 = descent rate for a 3deg path.

PJ2

cosmo kramer
4th Sep 2012, 12:31
Did anyone consider the fact that ATC may already had planned more track miles, then what the "magenta" displayed?

Don't be so reliant on a computer. Just go with the traffic flow. 2000' high is nothing above FL200. Just descend normally and watch the trend, both in terms of further deviation from planned profile, but not least what ATC is doing with the other traffic. Situational awareness is the key, stay calm, wait, assess and you may end up realizing that you are not 2000' high, rather 2000' low according to what ATC has planned out.

Some said don't let ATC fly the aircraft, I'd rather say: don't let the computer fly the aircraft!

aerobat77
5th Sep 2012, 00:29
hey gents !

maybe some of you noticed that the thread opener requested several days ago this :

and if possible i would like to put a full stop to this thread.

cheers

PJ2
5th Sep 2012, 02:56
maybe some of you noticed that the thread opener requested several days ago this :

: and if possible i would like to put a full stop to this thread.
cheers
You're trying to herd cats... ;-)

john_tullamarine
5th Sep 2012, 03:42
True.

Generally, except for the AF thread series (which looks like going on forever), threads tend to be self-limiting when everyone loses interest in the particular topic.