LIVERPOOL-3

[LTNman]

I will start the ball rolling. Anyone like to predict where Liverpool will be in terms of passenger numbers in 5 and 10 years time.

[Ernest Lanc's]

I don't know enough about Liverpool..I wish them well though as it's a really nice airport to fly from..Almost as good as BLK:);)

[LTNman]

Only flown from Liverpool once in the days just before smoking was banned. All I can remember was that the terminal was a health hazzard.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Why?..All the airport was short of IMO, was an airbridge..I can live with that.

[LTNman]

Yes but the place was thick with cigarette smoke. Really bad advert for Liverpool in those days

[pug]

LTNman, I can assure you that when I passed through LPL a couple of years ago they were adhering to the smoking ban.

Not the best experience on departure, but only because of the hour long queue for security. I understand they have since opened an improved security area, and if I find flights as cheap as those again I wouldnt hesitate to make the treck back there given those improvements.

[LTNman]

This was in the days of easyjet's Luton - Liverpool service whenever that was. Nice terminal shame about the passengers.

[Tableview]

I've only used LPL twice in the last few years. My experience about 3 years ago was so ghastly I didn't think I'd ever do it again. It was heaving with passengers, the access was poorly designed, security staff slow and unpleasant (even if you you gave way and paid the £3 'fast track' fee).

I used it last week as a flight from there was my best option and was pleasantly surprised, no crowds, no delays, even managed to get a reasonable breakfast although for what it was, it was overpriced. All round, not a bad airport.

[lfc84]

I use it on average twice per month for the last 20 years. At the start it was just a handful of flights per day, very quiet, and hardly any passengers. Then came the expansion of numbers and building work. It would be fair to say they had their problems along the way. Not least security search area queues - about which I have complained to the airport directly in the past.

They've relocated and expanded the security search area which is now excellent. Apart from the morning peak I don't think anyone would wait more than a few minutes nowadays.

If you have a look on the airport website a number of retailers have offers - particularly catering :ok:

[easyflyer83]

I don't mind LPL. It does the job pretty efficiently and Liverpool has done well to develop the airport the way it has. The other half doesn't like it however as he, like alot of less frequent travellers, prefers the 'buzz' of a bigger airport.

[paully]

Yes we too find it a great airport. The local Scouse staff are a joy, always a ready wit even at silly O Clock :ok:. Usually use the Easyjet service to Gibraltar and sometime Fue. Think they have canned this route for next summer, unless Easyjet83 can shed some light on it, but its not overcrowded, plenty of eateries and basically everything works.:ok:

Only fly in the ointment is last week the CEO gave an interview in which she seriously bigged up Manchester and indicated that she viewed that as their Northern hub...hmmm

[TSR2]

They've relocated and expanded the security search area which is now excellent. Apart from the morning peak I don't think anyone would wait more than a few minutes nowadays.

Sorry, but this was not my experience when I passed through the airport at the May holiday weekend. The airport was very quiet, one may say dead, but it still took 40 mins plus to clear security. Only one scanner operational and no queue management. I have to say though that the security staff were exceptionally friendly.

[MKY661]

Usually use the Easyjet service to Gibraltar and sometime Fue. Think they have canned this route for next summer, unless Easyjet83 can shed some light on it, but its not overcrowded, plenty of eateries and basically everything works.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Gibraltar ending in October due to Lack of Demand. Heard loads have not been as good as the other routes to GIB

Also sorry to break the bad news that from 4 November Ryanair also stopping Shannon. Riga also ending as well on the 5th but is staring from MAN.

[Mr Mac]

Have used Liverpool a number of times over this year and have had no real issues other than normal wait at border control inbound - have had that at Man as well. Will use again but there appears to be a drop in services as has been noted so maybe LOCO bubble going down a little in recession. All my other flying is long haul from Man on SQ/EK currently, and I am surprised at how full Business class is on both airlines given the recession:ok:.

[easyflyer83]

I think it's a little late to still be considering the LOCO market as a bubble/flash in the pan. FR and EZY have done particularly well financially over this period of downturn. I think the problem for LPL is that the low cost carriers are looking increasingly at MAN. MAN continues to attract legacy and low cost, something which it is becoming increasingly good at but alot of the growth there is currently from the low cost carriers.

[MKY661]

There apparently has been a significant drop in passsenger numbers this year with both EasyJet and Ryanair cutting flights (Think Wizz Air have also cut a couple as well). Lets hope that when Jet2 move in (If its happening) Numbers will be Increasing again.

[Cleared For A Coffee]

There was a scaremongering piece in the Liverpool Echo yesterday on page 3 titled 'Alarm at slum in passengers at LJLA'. Basically saying their on track to lose 700,000 pax this year.

Also had a quote at the bottom from LJLA spokesman saying "we are in active talks with several new airlines regarding potential new routes for next year". Hopefully someone comes in and quick because the rate at which RYR and EZY are pulling routes is scary.

[Mr Mac]

Easyflyer my comment on LOCO based on the fact how many A/C are due to be laid up this winter. LPL may see some of these ( maybe 6 Ryanair). As for LOCO and Man, yes there are more basing there, but Man cost base is more expensive, and it is up setting some long term users of Man who may look at base,s elsewhere as a result. I think the general problem is not enough bums on seats for the plethora of routes which mushroomed over the last few years from variouse UK regional airports. They and the airports are clearly not all supportable in this climate. Hope LPL survives though would have doubts about their sister airport Doncaster.

[pug]

I gather the Canadians are currently focusing on maximizing revenue per passenger, according to members of FoLa. I dont think its a question of whether the place will survive, more of securing a sustainable operation. It has been hinted at that MAG and LBA are making unbeatable offers to new carriers.

[TSR2]

Man cost base is more expensive, and it is up setting some long term users of Man

What factual evidence do you have of this?

Hope LPL survives

No doubt about it. Yes, there has been a decline in passengers recently but they will bounce back I'm sure.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Ryanair to resume there Liverpool-Oslo Rygge service form 9 November. Will operate at weekends again and Oslo Trop showing as 4 weekly for winter.

[easyflyer83]

From what I have heard, legacy and low cost are co-existing better than ever anticipated. Sure, in sure low cost has taken pax away from legacy but whilst the loco's grow their market at MAN, the legacy carriers are growing their feed.

[North West]

Total international traffic in the last 3 months at LPL & MAN combined is down 2.1% vs 2011. Rest of the UK is down 0.2%.

Until the economy improves and / or APD is lowered for regional airports, there's not much hope of traffic levels in and out of the North West growing massively.

Instead weaker operators will go (bmi baby) or downsize (Thomas Cook) and stronger carriers will use their leverage to shift capacity to which ever airport gives them the best deal or where they can exert pressure on weaker operators.

[Ernest Lanc's]

No doubt about it. Yes, there has been a decline in passengers recently but they will bounce back I'm sure.

Nice positive post TSR2...All airports are struggling at the moment, and pax are down.

When people have more money in there pockets and are sure of their jobs..There will be a bounce once people are sure of their jobs, and have more cash to spend on flight..

I found Liverpool good to use..It did not happen to me, but some complain about queues at security..Liverpool may want to address that, as queues can be annoying.

Like the fast bag drop at BLK, that is now the slow bag drop - because lots more use that, than check in at the airport.

[bermudatriangle]

i used liverpool quite frequently,but have started to use east midlands for ryanair flights.about the same travelling time,but find east midlands better for parking and a much better experience in the terminal.it's tough for the regional airports which are so dependant on lo cost operators as the customers,like me,will switch to where we get the best deal and experience.

[Ernest Lanc's]

but find east midlands better for parking

This matters..That and the fact that the carousel is hardly any distance from security, is why I use BLK when they have destinations that suits my needs.
However both Manchester and Liverpool are not as good parking, but for me Liverpool gets the nod over Man, simply because the terminal is easy to use..More important using jet2 at MAN T1..I find flying back into MAN early morning a nightmare..Flying out of MAN is easy enough..twice I have had long walks after landing at MAN in the wee hours

Liverpool is easy, inbound and outbound..

[MKY661]

I was in Chester today and I saw some aircraft coming in, but one of them strangely enough was a Transavia. Does anyone know why it was there cause I do know Transavia dont fly to Liverpool. Believe it was from Amsterdam.

[barry lloyd]

It departed to Oslo. Believed to be something to do with "Tall Ships."

[Mr Mac]

TSR2
Spotty M managment have visited a number of times recently as well as another charter operator not to mention the Jet 2 routes which were going to occur but got pulled. I do beleive Liverpool will survive but cost base will be critical and Canadians parent does not seem to be intrested (Vancouver has also got problems apparantly). This deal was put together approx 2008 and the world has changed since then as we all know, so do the Canadians still have the appetite for it going forward. :suspect:

[TSR2]

I was just curious to know what factual evidence you have in support of your assertion that the MAN cost base is upsetting some long time users of MAN.

[pug]

Mr Mac, are you sure it wasn't OLT Express who pulled away last minute and not Jet2? I'm pretty sure Jet2 historically announce new bases early-mid September..

As for Spotty M, as I posted earlier, according to members of FoLa Vantage have highlighted that LBA and MAG are 'paying airlines to fly from them, and are cynical of the longevity of such a setup'.. I would suggest that with Monarch having announced a base at LBA then that may have been one of those airlines directly refered to.

I dont believe for a minute that LBA or MAN would pay an airline to fly from them, with MAN supposidly having a policy of no less than £3 per passenger levied on the airlines. What it may be is favourable subsidies for marketing and such, something I understand is one of the most expensive aspects of airlines launching new routes.

With Peel Holdings retaining ownership of much of the land at DSA (same at LPL?) then I suppose there is little scope for alternative revenue sources available to Peel Airports. Therefore the days of the 'Peel Deal' over?

[MKY661]

Mr Mac, are you sure it wasn't OLT Express who pulled away last minute and not Jet2? I'm pretty sure Jet2 historically announce new bases early-mid September..

Yes. I thought Jet2 just delayed the announcement.

[160to4DME]

The press have already started preparing the public for the worst, all in preparation for an imminent Wizz announcement....

[Ernest Lanc's]

Has anyone got a source that Jet2 is making Liverpool a base?. I just wonder where this came from...I have googled and can't find any links to LS going Liverpool.

[160to4DME]

Ernest, LJLA laid down impossible conditions to Jet2 to protect the EasyJet agreement and their routes.

Ironically, the "agreement" between LJLA and EasyJet seems to have been the one thing that got in the way of LJLA's only real hope of expansion; Jet2.

One has to wonder whether the Vancouver boys were fully appraised of all contractual agreements before they signed on the dotted line, though being Peel, nothing would surprise me.

A few people have alot of egg on their faces currently, and there's worse to come...

[GayFriendly]

The press have already started preparing the public for the worst, all in preparation for an imminent Wizz announcement....

That Wizz are going to leave LPL for MAN? Wizz setting up at MAN has been rumoured for ages now. Would be a blow for LPL but not a disaster with LS posibly waiting in the winds, interesting times ahead on the Mersey

[160to4DME]

If clauses are in place to protect an incumbent's routes from a newcomer, there isn't much scope for expansion at LPL other than from RYR AND EZY.

[Ernest Lanc's]

If clauses are in place to protect an incumbent's routes from a newcomer, there isn't much scope for expansion at LPL other than from RYR AND EZY.
At the moment that might be best for Liverpool..Further expansion would be better when the economy picks up..

LS would tread on EAZY's toes, they did it with Monarch with the AGP route in 2006.
It's a difficult one this 160to4DME ..LS has expanded at BLK from 2013 with Dalaman, Ibiza and Lanzarote..

I would be a bit worried at the moment is Easy based an a/c at BLK, in case they flew some of the same sunshine routes as LS.

I take your point though, Liverpool are reliant on just EAZY and FR..Not room for other airlines if they are being protected.

[EZY7117LPL]

Lets clear a few things up:

1. The press conference thing in July was NOT Jet2, it was OLT express and was cancelled because of their own financial difficulties.

2. I very much doubt that anyone except those who need to know will know much about the contract between easyJet and LPL, I also doubt that easyJet get protection on routes because Ryanair also serve a large amount of their routes.

3. easyJet can't pull out of Liverpool, and their based aircraft can't fall below 7.

4. Wizz into Manchester is just a rumour, I doubt they would do it at LPL's expense, the market is huge.

I don't think that Jet2 coming into Liverpool would have a negative effect, I think it would be more likely to kickstart a "route race" with the others (especially Ryanair and probably easyJet) expanding to get a bigger slice of the cake.
I'm pretty sure Jet2 will announce Liverpool soon. As someone else said Jet2 don't announce bases in July! We will have to wait and see...

[pug]

EZYLPL dont count your chickens. Just see what happens. The reason 16to4DME offered re. jet2 sounds plausible.

I think your sources of information are questionable if they are who I think they are.

[Ernest Lanc's]

OK..Point taken.

However there is only so much pax to go round at the moment..The time IMO to expand would be when people can afford tickets.

easyJet can't pull out of Liverpool, and their based aircraft can't fall below 7.

This will be subject to contact though, and there will come a time again for EAZY to sight on the dotted line.
I don't think that Jet2 coming into Liverpool would have a negative effect, I think it would be more likely to kickstart a "route race" with the others (especially Ryanair and probably easyJet)
You might be right..however in a climate of people worrying about job, a route race would not happen IMO..The last thing any airport needs is a route war.
Where did the news that LS was making Liverpool a base come from?..dammed if I can find a link.

If Jet2 do come to Liverpool, they are a good airline, and know how to put bums on seats.

[pug]

Earnest, despite some informed people saying the market has been studied in depth by Jet2 quite recently, most of it is probably based on little more than wishful thinking from some quarters.

[Ernest Lanc's]

For what it's worth I think Jet2 would have announced by now, if they are opening a base at Liverpool.

It's now September and seats have been on sale now for 2013 in their other NW bases at MAN and BLK.

If LS is coming to Liverpool, they had better get a move on, as EAZY and FR have had seats on sale for a while.

IF 160to4DME is right and there are clauses to protect EAZY and FR (Which makes sense), then I can's see FR coming at a disadvantage. I could very well be wrong though, just my mind ticking.

Over WIZZ - I have seen nothing on the net or online press, that they are leaving Liverpool.

[MKY661]

The press have already started preparing the public for the worst, all in preparation for an imminent Wizz announcement....

Possibly pull out of LPL and DSA and Move to MAN? I haven't heard anything but we will just have to wait and see won't we. :)

[chaps2011]

I think Katowice finishes at both LPL and DSA at end of October
Did they operate last winter or was it summer only?

Ian

[chaps2011]

It looks as if it did operate last winter so therefore a net reduction of 2 flights a week for Liverpool, Doncaster appears to continue at present but I`m sure I have
read that they are dropping there as well

Ian

[buzzard2]

Emailed Wizz asking for flights From Manchester the reply was we do not fly from Manchester we do how ever fly from Liverpool to six destinations. so looks like new routes to be added

[StoneyBridge Radar]

The numpties on that new LPL forum are going apoplectic over the discussion on here. :E

The facts are, to the best of my knowledge, as 160to4 stated. Some pillock over there reckons the agreement only applies to Bodrum and Nice, though how they come to that conclusion is beyond me. :confused:

Not all is doom and gloom at LPL, though there is a refreshing sense of reality on here at last; long may it continue! :ok:

If clauses are in place to protect an incumbent's routes from a newcomer, there isn't much scope for expansion at LPL other than from RYR AND EZY.

Doesn't that mean RYR are not restricted by the agreement, hence they compete freely on some of EZY's routes? (Rhetorical question)

Jet2, as a complete newcomer however, would be subject to whatever conditions are laid down in the agreement to protect EZY's routes...including some routes considered home territory to Jet2: FAO, FUE, IBZ, ACE, AGP, MAH, NCE, RHO etc.

in a climate of people worrying about job, a route race would not happen IMO..The last thing any airport needs is a route war.

Ding, ding; we have a winner ! Ernest, you have hit the nail on the head. :D

It would lead to one of them upping sticks and leaving. But that was the idea of part of this mystical agreement; to protect the incumbent resident and prevent a route war...only it's backfired.

Jet2 is ideal LPL material, but for some to expect them to set up and launch only unexplored and untried routes without the security of known stable and successful rotations as well are, I suspect, expecting too much, just as was LJLA. :ouch:

The next few weeks and months will reveal whether some leverage or wiggle room has been found.

Spotty M managment have visited a number of times recently

Last one I'm aware of (pre summer '12) was for diversion facilities, nothing more. Monarch are not coming to LPL for any other reason.

EZY7117LPL, you claim that I very much doubt that anyone except those who need to know will know much about the contract between easyJet and LPL yet you state with authority that EZY can't pull out from LPL nor can they reduce below 7 frames. You also use RYR to "prove" your argument that there is no protection, but RYR were already serving LPL, so are not therefore "new entrants."

All the rest of your argument is personal opinion and supposition. Look forward to you coming back to the discussion when you have some hard facts for us all to discuss. :ok:

[pug]

It seems stoneybridge may have hit the nail on tge head regarding the exclusivity deal, but also their forum ran by a fake airline pilot..

[one post only!]

It might have been mentioned already but EZY will be adding some new routes for next summer. Expect a couple of the longer type routes.

[Mr Mac]

TSR2

The rumour re Jet 2 was correct but A/C were not to be based Liverpool, flying W pattern Las Palmes etc as I understood, though this may have changed. They hinted that they may look again in 2013 for flights 2014. Therefore not Polish outfit, though had heard that Wizz maybe leaving LPL, but that has been posted elsewhere in this forum, however they have signed new contract to stay at LPL and DSA as far as I am aware.

Pug
The costs and relationship issues at Man with existing users re the arrival of LOCO was based on conversations with reps of the carriers involved who are long standing Man users.

As I said in earlier posts I hope LPL survives (it should do) but passenger numbers based on A/C using it in coming year may will cause a further drop in passenger numbers, which I do not think will go down well in Vancouver. Only thing to do is cut costs but difficult to see where this could be done (Short of drastic steps and selling assets) as staff numbers do not seem excessive when I have passed through. Will have to see what happens.

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Let's face it, it's going to survive. LPL might have lost a LOT of pax this year, but even with the huge loss, there's still loads of airports that would do anything to attract even what LPL gets through the doors this year (probably looking at the 4.5m mark)...

Over the last few years it has proven that given the routes, it can comfortably attract 5m pax+ year on year.

Its hardly Doncaster or Durham is it...

[Mr Mac]

Its not Doncaster or Durham, but looking at planes based and or rotating and the passenger figure could be as low as 4m at LPL which is a figure that the Canadians did not for see when they purchased these airports I would guess. "May you live in intresting times" - old Chinese curse coming true.

[Ernest Lanc's]

The Canadians are not fools..They know that the UK in particular and Europe in general is in a seemingly long lasting depression.

Mr Mac - There will be an upturn, and the Canadians know it.

Mr Mac - I doubt yet that the time has come for selling assets, Liverpool could survive with less pax as long as this economic depression lasts.

Mr Mac - There are many Chinese proverbs and you say "curse". well they are all a load of rubbish as the pot army coming to life.

Liverpool is in a downturn at the moment, like many other airports/airlines and businesses in general..

[Mr Mac]

The Canadians or at leat the ones I have done business with are not "fools", but can be somtimes not too worldly wise. Would suggest that dealing with Peel may have come as a bit of an eye opener. It would be intresting to know what level of due dilagence they took before getting into bed with Peel.

I hope there is an up turn soon, as a business owner with 180 salaries and lives to consider. However I do not see any signe,s in my industry currently. Spend most of my time outsourcing work all over the globe to keep prices down and our wonderful banks happy.

Sale of parts of Peel airports already going through, Durham sold what odds do you give on DSA - 6-8 months tops ?. LPL makes money but is I beleive the only part of the group that does, therefore would be last to be disposed of if Canadians retreat back across the pond.

Have done quite a bit of time in China over the years, and think many of their proverbs have a grain of truth in them, but everyone is allowed a point of view.

Lets observe and see what happens;)

[dwlpl]

I would think that some of the experienced gained with airports in its network having low passenger levels will stand them in good stead.

Our Network | Vantage (http://www.vantageairportgroup.com/our-network)

[FRatSTN]

Based on what I can tell from the summer 2013 schedule for EasyJet, they will base 7 aircraft, down from 8 this summer. There's a few early last arrivals so would imagine the high peak only summer routes like Ibiza will have there usual 8pm departures. They have announced though that they plan to increase in Manchester for 2013. Not looking great for Liverpool at the moment. We'll have to see what Ryanair deilvers, but they are more interested in Manchester it would seem at the moment as well!

[airadio]

Ryanair are to give details today of large expansion at LJLA:ok:

[BHX5DME]

Ryanair Announces 1 Million Pax Growth In 2013 In North West

1 MILLION NEW PASSENGERS & 1,000 NEW JOBS

Ryanair, Europe’s only ultra-low cost airline, today (31 Oct) announced 1m passenger growth at 3 North West airports in 2013, adding 1m new passengers and a total of 9 new routes at Manchester, Liverpool and East Midlands airports, which will sustain up to 1,000 new jobs*.

Manchester Summer 2013:
· 34 routes, 5 new routes – Corfu, Krakow, Lanzarote, Paphos & Trapani
· 360,000 new passengers (over 2.4m pax)
· 360 new jobs, over 2,400 jobs in total
· 1 new aircraft

Liverpool Summer 2013:
· 39 routes, 2 new routes – Lublin & Zadar
· Over 180,000 new passengers (over 2.1m pax)
· 180 new jobs, over 2,100 jobs in total

East Midlands Summer 2013:
· 38 routes, 2 new routes – Marseille & Menorca (Growth on 17 other routes)
· 460,000 new passengers (over 2.3m pax)
· 460 new jobs, over 2,300 jobs in total
· 1 new aircraft

To celebrate 1m passenger growth in 2013 and the launch of its Manchester, Liverpool and East Midlands 2013 summer schedules, Ryanair is launching a seat sale with 100,000 seats across its European network at prices starting from just £15.99 for travel on Mon, Tues, Wed and Thur in November and December, which are available for booking until midnight Thur (1 Nov).

Ryanair’s 9 new summer routes from Manchester, Liverpool and East Midlands will be available for booking on www.ryanair.com (http://www.ryanair.com/) tomorrow.

In Manchester today, Ryanair’s Michael O’Leary said:

“Ryanair today celebrates 1m passenger growth at three North West airports, with 9 new routes, which will sustain 1,000 new jobs at Manchester, Liverpool and East Midlands airports.

Our 34 Manchester routes (including 5 new to Corfu, Krakow, Lanzarote , Paphos and Trapani), 39 Liverpool routes (including 2 new to Lublin and Zadar) and 38 East Midlands routes (including 2 new to Marseille and Menorca) will deliver almost 7m passengers and sustain over 7,000 jobs at Manchester, Liverpool and East Midlands airports in 2013.”

* ACI confirms up to 1,000 ‘on-site’ jobs per 1m passengers

[Ernest Lanc's]

FRatSTN

Not looking great for Liverpool at the moment. We'll have to see what Ryanair deilvers, but they are more interested in Manchester it would seem at the moment as well!

Well FR did come good for LJLA - So easy to talk an airport down.

[roverman]

Not been so many foreign registered aircraft with the same tail markings over the North West since 1940. Hope they all land at the right airport!

[SWBKCB]

3 North West airports in 2013, adding 1m new passengers and a total of 9 new routes at Manchester, Liverpool and East Midlands airports, which will sustain up to 1,000 new jobs*

I know it's Ryanair but East Midlands? North West airport?? :=

[ATNotts]

I know it's Ryanair but East Midlands? North West airport??

No, it's not East Midlands, it's Manchester (Southeast)!!

[jubilee]

No,its London North West (ish)
j

[airadio]

Peel airports spokes person said after the Ryanair announcement, that it was the first of three over the next few weeks from different airlines :ok:

[Ernest Lanc's]

No,its London North West (ish)


Nope: and it's not South and it's not "Manchester (Southeast)!!" - It simple is in the Midlands..

Newcastle is not far from Scotland, but it is not called Glasgow South.

[easyflyer83]

I think you have missed the 'piss takin' nature of the last few posts.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Nope: and it's not South and it's not "Manchester (Southeast)!!" - It simple is in the Midlands..

Newcastle is not far from Scotland, but it is not called Glasgow South."

Birmingham North East anyone?

[EZY7117LPL]

Some interesting articles in the LDP. Hopefully some more growth announcements over the next few weeks judging by what the Peel spokes person said last week!! Well done LJLA!!

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/ldpbusiness/business-local/2012/11/08/liverpool-john-lennon-airport-in-talks-over-transatlantic-routes-99623-32186438/



http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/ldpb....99623-32187073/ (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/ldpbusiness/business-local/2012/11/08/liverpool-john-lennon-airport-poised-for-return-to-growth-99623-32187073/)

[airadio]

That only half the story:cool: what i men was Easy have also completed a new contract with LJLA no more cut backs, but more new routes .
Interesting times ahead:ok:

[chaps2011]

In November Manchester has now overtaken Liverpool on Ryanair deparures for the month according to routes online ( and before anybody says it I know it`s only by 1) making Manchester the number 2 in UK behind STN

Chaps

[pug]

That only half the storyhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif


EZY7117LPL/Livermouse has already blabbed about FlyBe expansion elsewhere.

Be interesting to see if it happens, but then I already smell vermin.

As for Trans-Atlantic routes, how popular was the GSM attempt again?

[airadio]

Well done, Ryan just entered a new contract with LJLA say they will target Easy routes from Man, more units for LJLA 2014 making it 8 poss 9 with more routes:ok:

[airadio]

??????? Livermous i very much doubt it Flybe are i trouble Job to go and 4 aircraft grounded, flybe was never interested in Liverpool anyway why would he say that????

[lagerlout]

so there appears to be a bit of ecitement about a couple of lazy articles from the Liverpool papers.... how many times has this been trotted out before. What airports AREN'T actually targeting transatlantic routes???

There was much fanfare on here about an imminent announcement from two other airlines.... the reality is nothing substansive other than some sloppy journalism!

I can't wait for the day when there actually is something to report from LPL

[rogera]

hear hear !

[North West]

This is what I read...



Ryanair has also seen passenger levels fall as it cut back on frequencies and
routes, but, announcing two new summer routes last week for Liverpool, to
Croatia and Poland, and an increase in frequencies on existing services such as
Alicante, Malaga and Faro, Mr O’Leary revealed he has signed a growth agreement
with JLA that will bring further routes and an extra plane next summer, taking
its total jets based there to eight.


He said the expansion confirms Ryanair’s commitment to Liverpool “big time”
and added: “We’re going to add another aircraft there next year and two new
routes and 200,000 passengers next year, which is very important when Easyjet
are cutting flights there next year.”


And he insisted the Dublin-based airline’s cultivation of its operations at
its Manchester base will not be at the expense of Liverpool.


“We have a new growth agreement with the airport which we’re very pleased
with. We have a three-year plan that means we are going to grow from 2m to 3m
passengers at Liverpool.


“We expect both Liverpool and Manchester airports to grow equally next year.
Manchester will do about 2.4m passengers and Liverpool will do about 2.1m and we
expect both of them to grow to over 3m passengers over three years.”



...are we saying Ryanair signing a new agreement and stating they will add an extra aircraft is somehow not newsworthy ?

[airadio]

You also forgot to mention Easy jets new contract witn LJLA signed Monday
For more expansion from liverpool and more units :ok: oh and expansion from Wizzair pity They dont want to oppManchester

[SWBKCB]

The trans-atlantic link seems to be related to talks with operators at Hamilton (also owned by Vantage), which for current passenger operations means Transat and WestJet.


The Hamilton arrivals/departures page on their website makes interesting reading - last time I saw a weeks worth of movements displayed like that it was on a blackboard at Coventry in the seventies...

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "The trans-atlantic link seems to be related to talks with operators at Hamilton (also owned by Vantage), which for current passenger operations means Transat and WestJet"

A link to YHM ("Toronto South West") sounds progressive, hope something materialises!

[lagerlout]

So Ryanair are returning the capacity that they have taken out. The Ezy deal hasnt yet been signed and must be very secretive as no promises for growth. Finally the Wizzair announcement must have been made in morse code as that hasn't appeared either. At best what is confirmed above may stop the rot but isn't really anything to get excited about. What we dont know is how much family silver the airport has given away to keep Ryanair and Ezy on board. The over reliance on these two carriers means the airport will never have the upperhand. I for one yearn for the day there is news of a tangible new carrier at the airport, not pipe dreams about Transatlantic flights to Canada etc.

[airadio]

Largerlout Your post from November 2004
Wizz Air - How Long Will They Last?

Imminent start of Wizzair EX LPL with nil marketing. have seen a tiny poster on the side of a bus. is this going to be a dsiastorous flop.?

Other threads on Wizz dont exactly fill you with...

Your crystal ball must have been misted over then wizz doing great at Liverpool.
They have turned down Manchester twice in three years so i wouldnt call their Liverpool opp a flop :ok:
Hmmmmmmm Easy jets new contract with Ljla HAS BEEN SINGED it will be announced poss next week New routes more will be longer range more units :D

[GAXLN]

Well if the new contract has been singed I do hope no one has got their fingers burnt!:D

[idlejack]

Schedules are starting to be released.

So far only Katowice is out, restarts on 1st April twice weekly.

[TSR2]

I do hope no one has got their fingers burnt!

Very funny GAXLN.

[lagerlout]

I am afraid you have missed my point.

Previous posters on here have harped on about three big announcements for airlines with Liverpool.

All we have had is a confirmation that Ryanair will get capacity back to where it was, that EZY are close to signing a new deal (and not shutting up shop and decamping completely to manchester) and Wizzair are not going to Manchester.

So in summary LPL manages to mainatin the status quo, still completely reliant on two carriers and not really moving forward. i more than anyone would love some tangible new airline and route announcements for LPL but most here seem content with maintaining the status quo.

LIverpool needs to think outside Blue and Orange and supporters of it need to read through the hyperbole spureted out by the local media mafia and concentrate on the facts - No new airlines !!
I yearn to be proved wrong!

[dwlpl]

Isnt Oleary saying Ryanair are to increase its loads by half to 3 million a fact?

[SWBKCB]

Who realistically is going to take a punt on LPL in a difficult market and with two of the largest airlines in Europe already well entrenched, and Manchester with it's extensive network of scheduled airline routes just up the road?

I would have thought a better route to growth would be working to build on what you've already got.

[EZY7117LPL]

An airline is to announce flights to cyprus soon.

[airadio]

E or R i know there both in talks

[SWBKCB]

Paphos and Larnaca are both Vantage airports - some of the long awaited group synergy??

[lagerlout]

^^^^^

Is there any legitimacy to these latest rumours or is it just the latest figment of somenes imagination?

[Ernest Lanc's]

i more than anyone would love some tangible new airline and route
announcements for LPL but most here seem content with maintaining the status quo.
Fact..The status quo can be built upon, when the time is right..When people have more spending power..when bringing in a new airline for what are at the moment limited routes, could dissolve the Bread and Butter than FR and Easy provide at Liverpool at the moment.

Time to consolidate and not risk duplication with the airlines that just could get peed off, with all the consequences that could bring.

[lagerlout]

other airports still manage growth in these toughest of times!

[FRatSTN]

I would imagine the Cyprus routes are not likely unless operated by a charter airline from over there. Thomson, Thomas Cook, Monarch and Jet2 will probably never serve Liverpool due to them all having very large bases in Manchester and the dependency Liverpool has on Ryanair and EasyJet flights is the highest in the UK, as far as I know, even higher than Stansted (although STN has much more FR than EZY where as LPL is more half and half, but even so, is still not very attractive to any other UK airlines to start a base and is somewhat damaging for a regional airport, more so than a more major one like STN).

EasyJet seem to have a full timetable supporting 7 based aircraft with no further room for a new route to Cyprus and Ryanair have just announced flights from Manchester to Paphos, so very much doubt Liverpool will get that route now.

[Ernest Lanc's]

other airports still manage growth in these toughest of times!

Yes and some lose routes and frequency...In an ideal world another airline would be good for Liverpool..At the moment an extra a/c from FR or Easy would be better than one from A N other..
Experimental routes like SEN have tried with OLT is fine, but although not that much of a success - They did not tread on Easy's toes.

Jet2 are a brilliant airline, but should then come to Liverpool now with less than ideal economic conditions..That could spell bother for Liverpool if they duplicated FR and Easy routes, which they are capable off.

For example when MON flew AGP from BLK, LS said they where doing the same in 2007, and MON left the airport with some excuse of weak pax numbers..

[EZY7117LPL]

Well no announcement today. Should be one soon though.

[airadio]

I have been told there are no pending news items concerning LJLA.
Sorry to dampen your spirits , there may be somthing in "2013

[airadio]

SWBKCB Paphos and Larnaca are both Vantage airports - some of the long awaited group synergy??
Both are served from Manchester so I very much doubt it

[FRatSTN]

Looks like East Midlands will be a fair bit bigger than Liverpool next summer and even Leeds/Bradford looks as if it's going to be busier as well!!! Would that be a first or has LBA been bigger than LPL before (in terms of take-offs and landing with passenger traffic)???

[Mouser]

Based on 2011 figures East Midlands needs to make up just over 1million and Leeds 2.3 million, we'll see!

[pug]

Looks like East Midlands will be a fair bit bigger than Liverpool next summer and even Leeds/Bradford looks as if it's going to be busier as well!!!

Not sure on EMA but LBA will have a bit to go to catch up. I think LBA may handle 3.3-3.4million next year all going well.

LPL will be way down this year on 2011, but it looks like FR are looking to replace some capacity easyjet have pulled in 2013 so there should at least be some stability if not growth on this year.

Would that be a first or has LBA been bigger than LPL before (in terms of take-offs and landing with passenger traffic)???[/

Prior to low-cost taking off from LPL, I think LBA was some way ahead.

[FRatSTN]

The winter schedules are slightly busier at Liverpool than East Midlands.

Currently, exlcuding Ryanair (which is the only airline at both airports which has not yet finalise it's summer 2013 schedules) East Midlands has close to 50 departures on the weekdays and about 35-40 on the weekends whilst Liverpool sits at 30 maximum for all days of the week (EasyJet are slighlty down in 2013 at LPL with one less aircraft than 2012). As Ryanair will have a very similar amount at both airports with about 20-20 daily departures, and as far as I know EMA will be marginally larger than LPL which is a first then EMA will have about 70 odd departures on the weekdays and about 55 on the weekends and Liverpool will be around 50-55 every day.

EMA is much quiter on the weekends because FlyBe do a lot less flights and BMI Regional and Eastern do not fly at all on Saturdays and only have 1 or 2 on Sundays. Basically, East Midlands will be above Liverpool next year without question, and we are even expecting more growth by BMI Regional so it may be even higher for EMA.

As LBA, they are about 50-55 departures on the weekdays without Ryanair, so would expect maybe 65 departures in total once they are included. Not so sure about weekends though, but again would expect them to be much quieter than the weekdays. Although 10 more departures a day from LBA than LPL on most days, LBA has a lot more smaller aircraft such as Embraers, Fokkers and Dash 8's so not sure whether they will overtake!

[EZY7117LPL]

LPL will be closer to at least 60 departures a day average. It's not the departures that count it's the passenger numbers and as around 95% of Liverpool's traffic is with aircraft of an average passenger capacity of 176 the capacity is greater.

And as Leeds was below 3 million last year and Liverpool was above 5 million they've got some way to go.

Plus, the summer schedule is NOT complete yet, especially not Ryanair's. We're expecting new routes from at least one airline.

[FRatSTN]

Also remember that East Midlands does also have 757's and A321's, which are larger than what are seen in Liverpool. I agree, I don't think Leeds will over take, but East Midlands will in 2013, probably not this year! East Midlands is growing a bit and Liverpool has recently been sharply falling so although 2011 was LPL 5.2 million passengers and EMA 4.2 million, in 2012 that will be more LPL between 4.0 to 4.5 million at best (KLM and Eastern Airways pull out, cut backs by FlyBe, EasyJet and Ryanair have combined to large declines) and EMA 4.0 million. By 2013 I'd expect EMA to be in the mid 4 millions and Liverpool to be about 4 million on the dot. Yes I know that Ryanair will be growing, but easyJet will cut back and KLM were in LPL for the first 3 months of 2012, so even their pull out will still effect the 2013 statistics.

[lagerlout]

Are the Liverpool spin doctors all on leave? No news here after many were trumpeting some announcements soon?

[TSR2]

Are the Liverpool spin doctors all on leave?

No, just rehersing their Father Christmas role down at the local store :ok:

[airadio]

LJLA have today singed a five year deal with Wizz air,which will increase their presence at Liverpool with more destinations to eastern Europe and poss Russia later.

[EZY7117LPL]

Some new routes will be announced tomorrow.

[Ringwayman]

Something like the now-bookable 3 weekly service by easyJet to Newquay from 4th July perhaps?

[Dct_Mopas]

And also the twice a week service to Nantes which has also been uploaded on the easyJet website (from 5 July 2013)

[EZY7117LPL]

Ryanair have announced a new year round service from Liverpool to Malta operating three times a week.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Starts March 31st, Malta based aircraft.

[LBIA]

Good news as another new route to be announced.

As it looks like low cost airline Norwegian will commence a new 3x weekly Copenhagen - Liverpool route from April 5th 2013

[mybrico]

from their website
It has been expected that the Norwegian budget airline Norwegian had little good to the Danish traffic program for the summer of 2013. It is indeed the case, as the company today announced six new routes from Copenhagen Airport to commence in early April and late June.

Among the six new routes are three unserved destinations, respectively Liverpool, Montpellier and Corfu. Especially route to Liverpool is interesting because it gives football happy Danes to travel directly to Mereseyside-town.

[EZY7117LPL]

Some more routes to come from Ryanair, may well be new year before they're announced though.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Some more routes to come from Ryanair, may well be new year before they're announced though.

Based on what source, if you don't mind me asking?

Any hints, or is it conjecture at the moment?

[Mouser]

I think its gaps in their time table

[FRatSTN]

The timetables still don't seem right yet at virtually any airport. I think there is still going to be another series of rejigging timetables before the summer season actually commences, we've had alot of changes recently and based on previous years, there always does seem to be 2 major series of shifting flight times so that will probably sort out the gaps in the timetables. It may still be possible though, going back to the possible new bases in Morocco, Liverpool may be a new destination from there? We will have to wait and see what happens.

[EZY7117LPL]

After having looked at the ryanair schedules recently, there are some massive gaps in the schedules so we can probably expect some new routes and/or more frequency increases. Does anyone know anything?

[FRatSTN]

They have changed slightly recently but there is still big gaps and Riga is now not a destination, creating some gaps so maybe. East Midlands also has gaps and I hope the Greek routes will go up to 2x weekly, perhaps Liverpool will get the same. Another re-jigging of schedules may solve the gaps or if unlucky, we lose some flights quite late on, just like we did last year at EMA and LPL.

[EZY7117LPL]

LPL should be having an increase in flights for summer 2013. I don't think (I hope not!) that there will be a decrease because the gaps are where an aircraft has been out, come back and will then be sitting idle for a few hours! Not like Ryanair!

[FRatSTN]

No but like I say, further timetable changes may correct that. You are typically looking for either a 25 minute or 50 minute turn around time although there is some slight exceptions. I would expect maybe a change with the Dublin route where that offen has 2 flights within 10 or 15 minutes of each other! It may include 1 or 2 new routes although Liverpool has already had announced capacity increases for 2013 a few months back so we will see.

[Suzeman]

At least Easy's loads are good - or too good in this case....:rolleyes:

easyJet passengers forced into whip-round to pay people to leave overweight plane | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2264921/easyJet-passengers-forced-whip-round-pay-people-leave-overweight-plane.html)

[Tableview]

With an early morning departure out of LPL I decided at the last minute to stay over at the airport and booked the Holiday Inn Express. It was a pleasant surprise, although basic, it is a very modern building, a reasonable sized room, smallish comfortable double bed (might have been a bit small for two people), full sized shower with good pressure, TV, tea/coffee facilities. Above all it was quiet. Check in/out quick and painless, and it was £45 booked on the HI site.

It has a small bar/dining area but no food after about 10.

The only drawback is that it's a bit too far to walk to the airport specially with a suitcase, it's probably about a mile, but the reception have an agreement with the local taxis and will book and you get a fixed rate of £2.50.

Possibly next time for a few pounds more (advance booking non refundable rate) I might stay at the Hampton Inn which is right across from the terminal.

[paully]

Try the Premier Inn, further down the road. If you book early enough you can get rooms for £29 or even less. Lovely place to stay with late bar and just over 10mins walk to the terminal building.

[EZY7117LPL]

Still some gaps in the Ryanair schedule - definetely room for 3 early departures a week to a destination(s).

On another note - What do people think the chances of seeing Jet2, Monarch, Thomson etc... at LPL in the near future?

[Mr Mac]

Liverpool has just had change of senior manager from Vancouver who has moved onto another of their airports in eastern med. So new man at the helm, so you will have to see what he can do. Jet 2 was strongly rumoured as a possible last year but turned away very late in the game, and I beleive there has been discussions with Norwegian but nothing settled yet. As for others charter etc do not know.

[EZY7117LPL]

I know, hopefully he will be much better and we can get a few more airlines and flights in! Plus based aircraft!!!

Norwegian have already announced copenhagen from LPL, unless you mean there are further discussions into more services, based aircraft etc....?????

[Mr Mac]

Discussions were ongoing on other routes last I heard with Norwegian, but guess they will try route first to see what demand is like before offering others. There was a "fishing expedition" to BA on the back of the return of BA to LBA with local MP,s etc involved but Willy did not bite !. Jet 2 rumour still around, and maybe they will look again late summer for next year. Monarch have had mutterings about not being quite so happy at Manchester but can not see them moving given investment they have in MAN. LPL routes which their managment would like would be non EU, or Cannaries, as spend in Duty Free is higher on these destinations, and to be honest thats where all airports make their money if not a large hub.

[EZY7117LPL]

Interesting, maybe norwegian could open a base sometime in the future?

Jet2 and/or Monarch would be perfect for LPL as there are so many unserved/underserved destinations! Plus the lack of any all inclusive holidays (except easyJet Holidays where the holiday part is very much a secondary thing).

A hub link is really needed and hopefully we will see the return of one soon, wether it be BA, KLM, Air France, Iberia, Lufthansa, Aer Lingus etc...

I think that with a new man at the helm, we could see some good and exciting news this year, more based aircraft and services are definetely needed!

[Suzeman]

Read elsewhere that EZY are about to announce 2 x week LPL-CPH (Mon and Fri) in direct competition to Norwegian and will also increase their MAN-CPH services.

No sign on the EZY website though

[EZY7117LPL]

I hope not!

I doubt it though unless they are to increase the number of based aircraft at LPL as CPH isn't a base and the LPL schedule is complete, EZY don't usually operate W patterns either.

[EKCH2730]

Suzeman - I find it unlikely that EZY will open LPL-CPH and I have not heard anything about this here in CPH.

I believe that the EZY response to the new Norwegian CPH-LPL service is the increased capacity on the MAN-CPH route - from May going 9 flights a week instead of 7, with new flights Monday and Friday (same days you have heard they should be operating LPL-CPH).

[Brakes to Park]

EZY7117LPL

You are misguided. EZY operate plenty of W patterns. LPL-GVA-BOH-GVA-LPL and LPL-GVA-LBA-GVA-LPL to name but two and there are plenty of others.

[FRatSTN]

It doesn't make sense to me why DY are doing LPL-CPH when the rest of their operations to OSL, ARN and SVG go from MAN. I can see the DY CPH service moving to MAN in the future or maybe the shift of the 3 DY routes from MAN to LPL. Just speculation, but with their good options for connecting services, it seems a little odd to split operations between the 2 airports for any length of time.

[LAX_LHR]

It doesn't make sense to me why DY are doing LPL-CPH when the rest of their operations to OSL, ARN and SVG go from MAN.

The story I was told both by a poster on here and someone I know at LGW. This os all just rumour so don't shoot the messenger.

Norwegian wanted to start CPH-MAN, but, it already has a lot of competition (21 weekly flights from easyjet and SAS at the time of announcing, now 23 weekly overall).

They wanted to give the route a chance to grow against the competition (the extra easyjet flights are proof the competition is fierce), and with CPH airport offering a new route fund, LPL was the obvious choice for this.
The route fund is only available to operators who start a brand new route from CPH, so MAN would not have been covered as it is already served, but LPL was covered as it was not served from CPH.

I cannot remember the exact date the fund runs out for CPH-LPL, but it is widely expected that the route will join its MAN counterparts at this time.

However, to throw a curve-ball in the mix, the new LPL airport CEO has apparently held talks with Norwegian to try and coax the MAN flights over to LPL. However as Norwegian are an airline that keeps its cards very close to its chest, all of the above is speculation and its just a case of wait an see what happens. They may even decide to keep split ops, no-one really knows.

[Mr Mac]

LAX-LHR
That is the same tale I heard, but discussions with Norwegian are still live in that they are waiting to see what passenger take up they get on the route, and how Man / LPL compare for operating costs for them. As you say the Norwegians do "play their cards close to their chest" but do like a drink or two ;).

[FRatSTN]

Looks like the Wizz Air route from Liverpool to Vilnius will cease 07/04/13, flights are no longer bookable from this date. Flights are still available from Doncaster.

[Cleared For A Coffee]

More good news! :ugh:

[airadio]

Go with Ryanair:ok:

[FRatSTN]

Wizzair's Liverpool flight from Vilnius I think has been replaced by the new Alesund route. Liverpool was probably chosen as the one to go because Ryanair also offer the route and Wizz Air also serve Doncaster.

Now with Ryanair on the Warsaw route also, perhaps Liverpool maybe top choice again if something needs to be axed to make way for new routes from Warsaw?? It doesn't look good for Liverpool.

Back on the subject of passenger numbers... I know this is only 1 route, 2 departures a week, but is certainly looking like another reduction in passenger numbers this year to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong but:

Norwegian will bring 2 new flights a week, increasing to 3 in the autumn

Ryanair have said they will bring 180,000 extra passengers this year (2.1 million in total)

however...

Wizz Air are only 7 flights a week now, down from a peak of 10 last year

KLM were still at Liverpool until March 2012 so they will still impact this years annual figures.

FlyBe I think also have a few less if I remember correctly. Only Mon, Thur and Fri have 4 flights to/from IOM, I'm sure it was 4 every weekday last year with 3 only on Sat & Sun (could be mistaken)

EasyJet are making the biggest reductions. Following major expansion at Manchester, EasyJet will base only 7 aircraft this summer, down from 9 last year.

I would think the loss of 2 based EasyJet aircraft is going to have more than a 180,000 passenger reduction and will wipe out the growth FR will bring.:eek: Can anyone shed any light??

[airadio]

Not as bad a picture as you are painting wait and see :cool:

[chaps2011]

Bit late for summer now

Chaps

[FlightLieutenantJSG]

When does the new guy take over at Liverpool Airport, is he in place already?

What do people think about the outgoing CEO; Richmond, is it? He seems to have been incredibly low-key in his time there. I don't recall reading about any meaningful initiative undertaken at Liverpool on his watch, other than paying money to hand back Durham & Doncaster to Peel.

Giving Richmond the job seems like the most ill-advised managerial appointment on Merseyside since Roy Hodgson or even Mike Walker. :uhoh:

[airadio]

When does the new guy take over at Liverpool Airport, is he in place already
started March 1st

Change in leadership at Liverpool John Lennon Airport
New routes, new agreements, new airline and new CEO ahead in 2013
Vantage Airports UK, the company that owns Liverpool John Lennon Airport (JLA), today announced a change in leadership at JLA.
Outgoing CEO, Craig Richmond, will leave the post on 1st March 2013 to take up a senior position within the Vantage Airport Group network in Cyprus. Incoming CEO Matthew Thomas is currently Commercial Director for the Vantage Airport Group, having held a number of senior airport positions both in the UK and internationally.
"This is an exciting time for Liverpool John Lennon Airport," said Richmond. "There were a number of announcements made towards the end of last year, including new routes from Ryanair and easyJet and the signing of a long term deal with Wizz Air. We also came to an agreement with Norwegian - Europe's third largest low cost airline that will see them commence flights from Liverpool for the first time, with a service to Copenhagen in the spring."
Vantage Airports UK is the new name for the partnership between Vantage Airport Group and The Peel Group which jointly own Liverpool John Lennon Airport. The new branding aligns the Company more closely with majority shareholder Vantage Airport Group, an industry-leading investor, developer and manager of airports around the world.
The rebranding is also linked to the formation of a new subsidiary company, Vantage Air Traffic Services (Vantage ATS) which provides Air Traffic Services for Liverpool, Doncaster Sheffield and Durham Tees Valley Airports.
The distinctive branding for Liverpool John Lennon Airport remains unchanged.

Date: 7th January 2013

[AndyH52]

Norwegian is three-weekly from the start - it drops to two per week in July until mid-August; EZY may indeed have taken two A.319s away for the summer, but they are operating 30% more flights by A.320 in S13 compared to S12 so the weekly loss of seats is around 9,000 (seats, not pax).

Ryanair has committed to an extra 180,000 pax this summer and it may well be that further capacity is added (or at least less capacity dropped) for the winter.

The loss of Vilnius by Wizzair is a bit of a blow though the route itself is still operated by Ryanair. There is every chance that WZZ could either up capacity on their remaining routes or add new destinations to maintain their passenger throughput.

Flybe may have reduced their programme ex-LPL slightly compared to S12 but that does not necessarily mean they will lose many pax. They are taking out excess capacity on the quieter days.

All-in-all I suspect that once the summer starts passenger numbers will stabilise for the rest of the year, possibly showing a slight increase for the final quarter depending on what the airport management team may (or may not) have up its corporate sleeve.

[FRatSTN]

EZY may indeed have taken two A.319s away for the summer, but they are operating 30% more flights by A.320 in S13 compared to S12 so the weekly loss of seats is around 9,000 (seats, not pax).


And 9,000 seats less each week for 30 weeks (aprox. length of summer season, start of April to end of October) comes to 270,000 less seats for just the summer season.

I think LPL will be extremely lucky to escape a reduction in EZY's winter 2013/14 timetable compared to the winter 2012/13 timetable so potentially that's even more seats lost.

With EZY's impressive Load Factors, I think the loss of 300,000+ seats in one year is going to lead to a reduction of more than 180,000 annual passengers. So unless EZY flights from LPL are only just over half full, the passenger number reduction is going to be greater than 180,000, and I often wonder if Ryanair inflate their estimates a little!

[FlightLieutenantJSG]

So the new guy started a couple of weeks ago? There are almost no news items on Google about the airport. Wouldn't there normally be a fanfare to herald a major new appointment?

They seem very publicity shy at Liverpool these days. I remember not long ago Liverpool Airport was never out of the papers. Strange.

[TSR2]

If Liverpool Airport do not stem the loss in passenger numbers, they may well fall behind Newcastle and East Midlands by the end of the year in the Rolling Year numbers.

[FRatSTN]

They will certainly be below EMA this year and I would therefore imagine NCL as well.

Around 70 departures a day at EMA compared to about 50 in LPL for nearly all of the summer is probably the biggest gap I've seen between these two airports. They both have similar sized aircraft and load factors so EMA will have far more passenger during the summer.

EMA however does have quieter winter seasons than LPL since it's more leisure based, but certainly won't be so bad that annual passenger numbers will remian below LPL.

I think EMA and NCL will be 10th and 11th largest in the UK in 2013 (still not sure which way round as it looks neck and neck to me, my bet would be NCL 10th, EMA 11th) with LPL 12th and then probably BFS in 13th.

[airadio]

TSR2

Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 1,847
If Liverpool Airport do not stem the loss in passenger numbers, they may well fall behind Newcastle and East Midlands by the end of the year in the Rolling Year numbers.


Its not the lack of passengers its the lack of routes,give LJLA the routes and we will fill the planes. It will all change shortly :}

[EZY7117LPL]

The amount of routes that could be profitable but haven't been tried from Liverpool is huge!

...???

[Suzeman]

If Liverpool Airport do not stem the loss in passenger numbers, they may well fall behind Newcastle and East Midlands by the end of the year in the Rolling Year numbers.

I'm sure that the Airport Management Team are not particularly bothered about the position in the league table. What I hope they are bothered about is running the airport efficiently and profitably to serve their catchment. If EMA, NCL or whoever overtake them, that should be irrelevant.

[FRatSTN]

If EMA, NCL or whoever overtake them, that should be irrelevant.

Of course it's relevant. LPL will not want to lose out to its rivals or lose market share. BRS is in comfortable ninth place so LPL, NCL and EMA will all be fighting to make it in the top ten.

Not as bad a picture as you are painting wait and see
New routes, new agreements, new airline and new CEO ahead in 2013

Which ever way you look at it, Liverpool's passenger numbers are going to be dissapointing this year, certainly a small decrease on 2012 unless the airport suddenly get a huge boost for the last 2 months of the year when the winter timetable starts, which I very much doubt will be the case. It's far too late for any significant expansion this year now. If they get something like a Jet2 base in 2014, that's a different story.

The main problem is that LPL is too reliant on EasyJet and Ryanair they are now just as big in Manchester as they are in Liverpool, if not bigger (FR is certainly bigger in MAN now). Go back 5 or 6 years and FR had about 2 routes from Manchester and there was no EZY at all!

Btw: Those living near LPL are going to have a really nice quiet Sunday morning lie in this summer! Below is the timetable for Sunday mornings through the summer holidays:

ARRIVALS
EZY7146 00:55 Palma de Mallorca
EZY7198 01:35 Faro
EZY7268 01:45 Rhodes
EZY7260 02:10 Bodrum
EZY7164 02:20 Ibiza
FR442 08:45 Dublin
FR1442 08:55 Dublin
FR1134 11:40 Shannon

DEPARTURES
EZY7179 06:00 Malaga
FR4038 06:00 Kos
EZY7141 06:10 Palma de Mallorca
FR9886 06:20 Alicante
FR443 06:30 Dublin
FR4252 06:35 Lodz
FR9622 06:35 Vilnius
FR1443 06:45 Dublin
EZY7133 07:00 Minorca
EZY7157 07:00 Lanzarote
EZY7193 07:05 Faro
EZY7083 07:10 Lisbon
EZY7253 07:50 Krakow
FR1135 09:10 Shannon
FR9824 09:20 Barcelona-Reus

The next departure after the 09:20 flight to Reus is a 12:30 departure to Limoges, more than 3 hours later!!! In fact, providing there are no stand-by or additional aircraft, there won't be a single passenger aircraft on the ground what so ever between 09:20 and 11:40 on Sunday mornings :eek: Dangerously quiet if you ask me!

[airadio]

Think of all the empty slots there is to fill then , expansion will come you will just have to wait a little while longer:ok:

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Its not the lack of passengers its the lack of routes,give LJLA the routes and we will fill the planes. It will all change shortly


....like Southampton, Eastern's network, FlyBe's withdrawn routes, KLM to Amsterdam, Heathrow, Luton, Easy cutting back, transatlantic tried and failed etc.

It's groundhog day on the LPL thread again. :ugh:

There's always chatter on the Liverpool threads about jam tomorrow, but it rarely turns up. Monarch still entrenched at MAN, Jet2 don't return calls, Air France mais non ! Just because Liverpool appeared briefly on the KLM website as the software was being updated, the usual suspects on other sites are getting into a frenzy over KLM returning to the 'Pool. Oh dear.

Just what are these elusive routes on which you'll fill the planes ?

Give us a clue, otherwise this thread becomes banal.

[airadio]

I would love too but if i did the money grabbers at another strip would try and pinch them:E

[LAX_LHR]

I would love too but if i did the money grabbers at another strip would try and pinch themhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Im sure MAN are already aware if anything was in the offing. Airlines very very rarely talk to just 1 airport when they look at setting up services.

Cant see any harm in mentioning names, if people outside of the airport already know, its not exactly a well kept secret. :)

[airadio]

My dear friend i did not mention or mean Manchester why are you so Paranoid.:=
I was meaning another field altogether :ugh:

[LAX_LHR]

My dear friend i did not mention or mean Manchester why are you so Paranoid.:=I was meaning another field altogether :ugh:

Sorry, my bad. No paranoia here, but, my point still stands, no harm in mentioning names if the word is already getting out.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

I would love too but if i did the money grabbers at another strip would try and pinch them

Do you honestly, I mean honestly, believe that's how it works?:rolleyes:

Respectfully, that shows a shocking level of naivety.

Let's place it in the same file as "three good news stories from three airlines coming" and "big news at the beginning of the year." Just do a search to see who posted those little nuggets. :}

Move on, nothing to see here...again.

[airadio]

Hmm i love coming on here it keeps me sane:ok:

[LAX_LHR]

Im not interested in getting personal, just interested in potential new routes/airlines.

[EZY7117LPL]

Lot's of people saying that it's too late for anyone at LPL this year, airlines are still anouncing routes starting in June/July now and Monarch announced EMA as a base in May with flights starting in August last year!

[dwlpl]

DEPARTURES
EZY7179 06:00 Malaga
FR4038 06:00 Kos
EZY7141 06:10 Palma de Mallorca
FR9886 06:20 Alicante
FR443 06:30 Dublin
FR4252 06:35 Lodz
FR9622 06:35 Vilnius
FR1443 06:45 Dublin
EZY7133 07:00 Minorca
EZY7157 07:00 Lanzarote
EZY7193 07:05 Faro
EZY7083 07:10 Lisbon
EZY7253 07:50 Krakow
FR1135 09:10 Shannon
FR9824 09:20 Barcelona-Reus

Dont like unwrapping your chips in this cold weather but thats 15 departures you reckon in the first 3h20mins of a Sunday morning.

BUT last year there were 14 in the whole am period.....

[North West]

I would love too but if i did the money grabbers at another strip would try and pinch them

Do you honestly, I mean honestly, believe that's how it works?

They don't read here, but airport pricing policy has played a *major* part in the movement of capacity between LPL and MAN. Post K O'T arrival at MAN, there has been a real push for volume and a very deliberate policy of getting after the LPL (and LBA) catchment areas. The Gtr Mcr catchment area alone doesn't justify the capital outlay on 2 runways & 3 terminals so Merseyside and Yorkshire are integral to getting the volume in through the doors. They are also more likely to buy car parking and pre-departure hotel nights, than the local Gtr Mcr punters, which makes them a valuable source of revenue.

I'm not sure why the matter can't be debated in a grown up way, without people peddling their own inferiority or superiority complexes.

EDIT - to reinforce to point. 2012 passenger data

MAN/LPL, combined - just 55,000 passenger growth vs 2011; 0.2% growth
Rest of UK - 0.6% growth
London Airports - 1.0% growth

[johnnychips]

North West wrote:

I'm not sure why the matter can't be debated in a grown up way, without people peddling their own inferiority or superiority complexes.

EDIT - to reinforce to point. 2012 passenger data

MAN/LPL, combined - just 55,000 passenger growth vs 2011; 0.2% growth
Rest of UK - 0.6% growth
London Airports - 1.0% growth

A very sensible post.

[FRatSTN]

Dont like unwrapping your chips in this cold weather but thats 15 departures you reckon in the first 3h20mins of a Sunday morning.

BUT last year there were 14 in the whole am period.....

Well I can't see how that works if there were 15 aircraft (9 EZY and 6 FR) based there last year compared to 13 (7 EZY and 6 FR) this year. FR have always done at least 1 early morning departure to Dublin everyday allowing for that aircraft to do a 2nd am departure, so simple calculations say it must have been at least 16 last year, unless you reckon 2 or 3 aircraft were sitting on the ground until the afternoon every Sunday, which seems highly unrealistic!

[Phileas Fogg]

I have no idea but, just a suggestion, would aircraft maintenance "down time" be a thing of the past?

These are not Corgi/Dinky/Matchbox toys, these airframes do need some TLC from time to time and it's not all about scoring more points than an airport down the road someplace.

[TSR2]

The Gtr Mcr catchment area alone doesn't justify the capital outlay on 2 runways & 3 terminals so Merseyside and Yorkshire are integral to getting the volume in through the doors.

Yes, I'm sure you are correct but from the CAA figures, Merseyside far more so than Yorkshire.

LPL -787,904 (-15.00%)

MAN +843,746 (+4.47%)

LBA +13,636 (+0.46%)

[AndyH52]

Liverpool has indeed lost market share in the last five years, but only around 2%, in a market (counting LBA, BLK, MAN and LPL) that in 2012 was still 11% below the level of 2007. So yes a smaller slice but of a similarly smaller pie.

As Suzeman rightly says Having a well run, profitable business will mean more to the Management than their place in the league table.

[Suzeman]

FR at STN

Of course it's relevant. LPL will not want to lose out to its rivals or lose market share. BRS is in comfortable ninth place so LPL, NCL and EMA will all be fighting to make it in the top ten.

If you were in the real world of Airport Management, you would realise that that is a complete load of cobblers. As I said the priority is to run a profitable and efficient airport meeting the needs of its catchment, not willy waving about position in the league table.

[FRatSTN]

BRS is in comfortable ninth place so LPL, NCL and EMA will all be fighting to make it in the top ten.

That was supposed to come across more metaphorically than literally. The basic principal is that they all want to be as busy, and as you say, profitable as they can.

However, Liverpool will not want to fall too far behind their rivals in terms of passenger numbers since doing so would make them lose out to the competition and lose market share, since in the longer term, it's ultimately going to make attracting new business and growing profits more challenging.

Competitiveness will be just as much as a priority as profits in any airport, in order to sustain growth. You make it seem that any airport can go along and do it's own thing and not having to worry that it may be slipping behind other rival airports, as long as it's making a profit.

[AndyH52]

I doubt very much that EMA and NCL wee considered rivals, its not as if their catchments overlap. And as I pointed out in my earlier post whilst market share has gone down it is only by a couple of percent and the market is some 3m+ smaller than 2007.

[j636]

DY have released LPL-CPH flights for the winter season, remains 3 weekly.

[cornishsimon]

LPL-NQY on U2 starts today if im not mistaken


cs

[Mouser]

Liverpool Echo reporting Liverpool has signed a new nine year agreement with Easyjet, and has announced a new destination with flights to Larnaca, starting November twice weekly Tues & Sat.

[3Y1862]

Hi new to forum, been in background for a while. I follow Liverpool through social media website and they say they have something to announce very soon. Any ideas what this could be?

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Presuming you mean the 'very exciting announcement' due next week. Not entirely sure what it is.

The picture they keep putting up relates to the new internal magazine 'Voyage'. However, I'm not sure a new magazine constitutes a 'very exciting announcement'. Also, the Facebook page has said they 'may' be able to announce it next week, which is strange in itself if it is indeed only a magazine.

Any comments left on the Facebook page rumouring that it may be a Norwegian base for next summer keep getting hastily deleted.

On a side note, loads on the Copenhagen route have vastly improved as of late. I believe the outbound leg today was full, not bad considering the football season is yet to start. Good news.

[Mr Mac]

Perhaps now review Jet 2 posts with SPANISH based A/C as posted last year.

Mr Mac ;)

[EZY7117LPL]

Perhaps now review Jet 2 posts with SPANISH based A/C as posted last year.

Mr Mac http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif


Hmmm I haven't heard this but sounds plausible considering the lack of package holidays at Liverpool and the fact that they wouldn't want to committ to a base due to Manchester and Blackpool.

How far off is this?

I have heard other things as well which could be very exciting...

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Must admit haven't heard anything on the Jet 2 front for a while now. It's a possibility I suppose. Not sure a couple of flights a week to alicante would constitute very exciting news! If it was a 2 aircraft base like was apparently the plan last time around, then maybe... But I can't see it at the minute.

What other things have you heard Ezy7117?

[EZY7117LPL]

It is to do with a Scandanavian airline that already operates into LJLA but I can't say anymore.

[LAX_LHR]

It is to do with a Scandanavian airline that already operates into LJLA but I
can't say anymore


Given there is only one Scandinavian airline in LPL, you are hardly being
cryptic there are you. Anyway its not that, the news is the magazine, and as for the announcement being called exciting, the bold words show LPL airport do see it as just that, exciting. Its being held up slightly due to some last minute editing/printing issues, which is why it is subject to 'maybe' quotes:

New Magazine Launch for Liverpool Airport - VOYAGE

An exciting new magazine for Liverpool John Lennon Airport is being launched by communications agency Archetype at 5:30pm on Tuesday July 16th at Leaf’s latest venue Secret Space on Water St, Liverpool.

The magazine, called Voyage, will seek to capture the thrill and excitement of travelling to new destinations, as well as providing an insider’s guide to hot spots across Europe and beyond. It will have the look and design of a high-end consumer publication complemented by quality editorial spreads.

-----------------------------------------

[LAX_LHR]

I follow Liverpool through social media website and they say they have something to announce very soon. Any ideas what this could be?


It is to do with a Scandanavian airline that already operates into LJLA but I
can't say anymore.


It was the launch of the 'Voyage' Magazine:

Media Centre | Press Releases | Liverpool John Lennon Airport announce Voyage! (http://www.liverpoolairport.com/press-office/liverpool-john-lennon-airport-announce-voyage.html)

[onyxcrowle]

I follow Liverpool through social media website and they say they have something to announce very soon. Any ideas what this could be?


It is to do with a Scandanavian airline that already operates into LJLA but I
can't say anymore.


It was the launch of the 'Voyage' Magazine:

Media Centre | Press Releases | Liverpool John Lennon Airport announce Voyage! (http://www.liverpoolairport.com/press-office/liverpool-john-lennon-airport-announce-voyage.html)

Was there Supposed to be a new Route announced for LPL here

[LAX_LHR]

No someone claimed Norwegian were due to announce something, and that loads were 80% to full for July. Both were wrong.

[onyxcrowle]

Ah thought it might be much needed new routes.

[FRatSTN]

EasyJet traffic seems very slightly down for Spring 2014 compared to this year. Still 7 aircraft but no flights to Nantes and nothing to Bordeaux until 14 June.

No Mahon or Newquay either but they will probably follow in the main summer period.

I believe Belfast is slightly less with only 3 flights on Tuesday's and Wednedsday's.

Also a couple of the Geneva flights appear to have a space for a W pattern in Geneva in-between the Liverpool flights, so the aircraft spends more time away from Liverpool.

[dwlpl]

Nantes, Bordeaux, Mahon and Newquay are summer seasonal routes.

[TSR2]

Liverpool really need an injection of new routes/airlines quite urgently. Over 1million passengers have been lost in less than two years.

[berkshire boy]

I don't see any mention of the new easyJet route to Larnaca whiich starts in March next year.

"EasyJet has gone on sale with its summer 2014 schedule which includes new flights to Romania, Venice, Cyprus and Bulgaria.


Starting next March, the airline will add services from Gatwick to Bucharest, from Manchester to Venice, from Liverpool to Larnaca and from Stansted to Sofia in Bulgaria."

From Travel Mole

[FRatSTN]

Except none of those routes start in March!

Stansted-Sofia started last February so that is hardly new! Manchester-Venice also already operates.

Gatwick-Bucharest and Liverpool-Larnaca start October and November respectively, so are new for the spring season, but not new routes as such.

I don't see any mention of the new easyJet route to Larnaca whiich starts in March next year.

The number of flights and passengers though I still think is very slightly less than the same period this year (2013), but I could be mistaken.

And a route like Larnaca also increases the sector length of aircraft, which can also result in fewer flights as the aircraft is away from Liverpool for longer.

[EZY7117LPL]

The schedules may not be completely finished yet and new routes are often not announced until Oct/Nov/Dec.

Hopefully we will see something for Summer 2014, we should definetely be seeing something from Wizz Air and hopefully Norwegian.

[airadio]

No new routes from those three carriers from Liverpool next summer

[FRatSTN]

Over 1million passengers have been lost in less than two years.

No new routes from those three carriers from Liverpool next summer

Norwegian is rolling out S14, but still nothing from Liverpool. There's still a few routes to go on yet though so maybe it will go on sale soon. If Norwegian do pull out I'm sure they would operate Copenhagen from Manchester instead.

WizzAir rolling out S14 too, only WAW added at the moment at 2x a week. They still haven't released GDN and KTW S14 schedules yet.

Flybe is the same as this year as it currently stands.

EasyJet growth looks unlikely as schedules seem complete and I'm not sure about any new airlines.

So I guess it's all down to O'Leary, or will even his airline continue to concentrate on Manchester? It sadly isn't looking much better for Liverpool, 2014 will probably be very similar to this year.

[aredforever]

Yee of so little faith......alas u may be disappointed by Lpl having a positive S14....lets wait and see, those who make decisions do not necessarily broadcast them early!

[EZY7117LPL]

Just because the schedules are out doesn't mean that it's too late, Norwegian announced their Liverpool route around the 20th December, Ryanair usually announce new routes right up into January really and Wizz Air hinted at new routes for 2014 when they signed the new deal last year. Also Norwegians Gatwick base wasn't announced until the end of October last year.

Also with Ryanair a seventh based aircraft was hinted at for next year.

[TSR2]

It has been reported on the DTV thread that a £100 fine will be imposed for dropping off/picking up passengers outside the termnal at Liverpool Airport.

Not a very passenger friendly policy in my opinion.

[Suzeman]

It has been reported on the DTV thread that a £100 fine will be imposed for dropping off/picking up passengers outside the termnal at Liverpool Airport.


Have they been teaming up with RYR then??? :}

[MAN777]

Are the terminal area roads private or council owned ?

And who are dishing out the fines ?

[TSR2]

This company is dishing out the fines.

A parking company is paying £25,000 a year to patrol an airport approach road and issue £100 penalty notices to drivers who stop for just a few seconds to drop off passengers.

A leaked document reveals that Vehicle Control Services (VCS) pays the fee in return for 24-hour access to Liverpool John Lennon Airport.


The firm monitors the road in a van fitted with a camera, catching vehicles that break the no-stopping rule.

[EZY7117LPL]

This has been in operation for a few years, not in front of the terminal which the public can't access anyway, but on the roads which are owned by the airport, there are clear warning signs and red lines down the sides of the roads.

Passengers should be dropped off in the dedicate drop off zone which is free for the first five minutes so it makes no difference to you.

[JonEMA]

Q. Do VCS have the right to enforce tickets in court?
A. Yes, but only with the prior written permission of JLA

But they can only enforce against drivers not the registered owners of vehicles.

If caught, ask them to provide proof that you were the driver. If they can't ignore them.

Just because you are the registered owner doesn't mean you are on the hook.

[AndyH52]

I know things are quiet on the Liverpool thread but please, can we move on from parking fines? There are more signs on the approach roads than you can shake a stick at. If you get caught, tough - don't stop where you shouldn't. There are plenty of places within a five minute drive that drivers can lay up and wait without risk of being fined, or without causing traffic chaos on the approach roads or congestion for local residents.

[EZY7117LPL]

There are plenty of signs around the airport approach detailing this policy, they clearly show "no stopping at any time" and the fine is only enforced immedietly near the airport - near the roundabout and on roads that the public have no need to access anyway. There are red lines painted at the side of the road.

Can we move on from this discussion because it is not really anything to do with Airports or Routes

[pilothouse]

A bit boring, sorry, but would someone who knows the airport please tell me if any of the longterm carparks have height barriers? I need to park my high van for a week or two.

Thank you very much!

[TSR2]

Is there any drop-off point that is weather protected ? ie; you don't get wet walking to the terminal when its raining.

[Mouser]

Its much the same at most airports, drop-off/pick-up, raining you get wet.

[dwlpl]

Drop off is maybe 100 paces from the terminal.

[EZY7117LPL]

A bit boring, sorry, but would someone who knows the airport please tell me if any of the longterm carparks have height barriers? I need to park my high van for a week or two.

Thank you very much!


Depending on the height you should be fine in the iPark and Long Stay but not Multi Storey.

[pilothouse]

EZY7117LPL,

Thank you, most useful and very kind of you.

[LAX_LHR]

It seems LPL-CPH has been cut from 28th March.

It seems all destinations from CPH are bookable for the summer season, and from April 2014, LPL is removed from the list of available destinations on this page:

All destinations- Cheap flights from Copenhagen - Norwegian.com (http://www.norwegian.com/uk/flight/tips/?D_City=CPH&DestinationGroup=12&SplitDatesInto=2&UseDates=True&D_Day=01&D_Month=201404&D_Day_End=30&D_Month_End=201404&CurrencyCode=GBP&rnd=1516)

[FRatSTN]

Wizz Air starting to release Summer 2014 flights from all airports now and still no sign of Liverpool to Katowice coming back for next summer.

All other Katowice routes have been uploaded as well as the Liverpool to Gdansk and Warsaw flights.

Norwegian still has nothing to Copenhagen after 28th March.

Assuming neither situation changes and there's no new routes from anyone other than Ryanair and EasyJet... That could mean the only flights out of Liverpool which are not Ryanair or EasyJet would be the 2 Wizz Air routes and the Flybe service to the Isle of Man!!

Despite the rumours over the last several months, no growth seems to be returning! It's sadly looking quite bleak for Liverpool.

[Jamie2k9]

Despite the rumours over the last several months, no growth seems to be returning! It's sadly looking quite bleak for Liverpool.

Just because nothing is public doesn't mean it won't happen.

[FRatSTN]

Yes maybe in future, but so far it looks like traffic might be slightly down again in 2014 where most airports look to be growing quite strongly.

Plus there have been rumours on and off about a major announcement for months and the only fairly recent thing that turned out to be true was 2 flights a week with Norwegian, who now appears to be leaving in March, although it is still early(ish) days.

I have my preferred airports as I'm sure most people here do and I must admit Liverpool isn't one of them. Unlike some people on this forum though I don't want to see my less preferred airports lose traffic.

It's very sad as people's jobs depend on the airport and any reduction at any airport can put jobs at risk, and not just those directly employed either. Unfortunately I just don't really see any significant increases at Liverpool myself. Certainly not for next year. :(

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Nobody's going to be losing jobs over 3 routes a week. It's a shame about Norwegian because with the right routes they could have made the operation out of Liverpool a success.

Listening to BBC Radio merseyside the other day they had a 2 hour appearance from a couple of board members and they spoke not for the first time of a hub route being there number 1 priority.

But who? KLM would be brilliant but they've already had a go and despite good loads they couldn't make it work. Can't see BA, Air France or Lufthansa being interested. They sounded like they have something up there sleeves but what?

LPL is massively under served with some basic destinations, somebody like Jet2 coming in could clean up. Far more room for routes to Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Croatia, Italy, Germany amongst others. Liverpool is massively under served at the moment for a regional airport with its catchment area.

2007 pax numbers of 5.5m show that the pax are out there. I hope for the airports sake they manage to get something new for next year, because the monopoly EZY & RYR have on the place is crazy, especially when neither are expanding at LPL.

[Bagso]

Liverpool was only relevant when Manchester spurned the low cost market believing the future was legacy.

Eventually, and to be fair with a degree of hindsight Manchester capitulated to the low cost market and RYR and EZY opened up over there.

Whilst they retain a degree of interest they are in a win - win situation, they really want services Ex Manchester and one base, two bases 40minutes apart is a nonsense BUT crucially the additional cost of running two bases is offset presumably by savings elsewhere. By retaining a Liverpool base they can play one off against the other in terms of cost!

The passengers they serve are driven by price so Manchester and Liverpool are in effect both "local", regardless of where the pax originate, geography does not really matter so they attract same clientele.

In terms of services to a hub, why would anybody start services ex Liverpool when you can be in Manchester in less than an hour and have multiple choices ?

[FRatSTN]

Nobody's going to be losing jobs over 3 routes a week.

No but when passenger numbers in 2012 dropped by 15% compared to 2011, with 2013 expected to have a tiny decline and with 2014 looking perhaps the same way, jobs will have been lost and with no return of growth, those jobs won't be coming back. Especially with Manchester growing quite significantly at the moment.

[MAN777]

I am from Stockport and a MAN local (3 miles away) but still use LPL on a regular basis.

Usually for cheap flights to Spain and more recently on business trips to Lisbon or should I say returning from business in Lisbon with easyjet (I still use TAP outbound from MAN.

Having the choice is great but one thing that is really beginning to get my back up is the bus service to the Parkway station, Its not frequent enough and it always seems to get into the bus stop at the station as my direct train to Stockport is leaving, meaning an hours wait for the next one or the all stops to Manchester which takes forever.:ugh:

[anothertyke]

Really surprised you say that 'Cleared'. I would have said that relative to the other championship airports such as EMA, BRS, LBA, LPL has overperformed in the last decade thanks to (a) Easyjet and (b) Manchester's strategy being what it was. From Leeds, Liverpool has been my best option to destinations like Geneva, Zurich, Madrid for the last decade. I can't imagine LBA being many Liverpudlians best airport for going anywhere! Jet 2 are a decent airline but be careful what you wish for, Easy are in a different league.

[FRatSTN]

In a nutshell Liverpool suffers because it is so close to Manchester.

If you look at other comparable regional airports like Bristol or Newcastle, they are still the primary airports for their regions.

East Midlands and Leeds less so because there is certainly stronger competition from Birmingham and Manchester respectively, but are undoubtedly much less effected than Liverpool with an airport carry 5x as many passengers only 40 minutes away.

If you take the East Midlands/Birmingham example, there is a bit of a split with the mix of traffic they have. East Midlands is mainly Low-cost and holiday charter, Birmingham is also holiday charter but has lots of domestic and hub services by regional and full service carriers with much less low-cost.

If you look at Liverpool/Manchester, in only 2 years Ryanair have gone from only operating a Dublin route from Manchester to making it a base airport bigger than Liverpool! EasyJet have also shifted traffic and are only slightly bigger at Liverpool now.

Manchester is certainly the most diverse airport in the UK as it covers pretty much everything to a high level. It has long-haul, short-haul, hub, domestic, full-service, holiday charters, low-cost... pretty much everything you could think of.

Liverpool now has nothing unique so to speak and with Manchester now with pretty much everything now covered, is there still a place for Liverpool in the market?? It's certainly very concerning.

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Really? Despite the problems of the last few years there still pulling in comfortably 4 million pax without breaking a sweat. And your trying to make an argument for 'not having a place in the market'.

I'm certainly not as concerned as you FR.

If MAN grow much more, Ryanair are going to get a little fed up going dizzy in the hold every day.

Something will give eventually.

[TSR2]

Despite the problems of the last few years there still pulling in comfortably 4 million pax without breaking a sweat.

But they have lost 20% of their passengers since 2011 which equates to almost 1.2 million, and must be of concern.

[LAX_LHR]

If MAN grow much more, Ryanair are going to get a little fed up going dizzy
in the hold every day.

Something will give eventually.


Having seen similar comments on other forums I find it intriguing these issues only seem to be the concern of LPL supporters?

Im sure Ryanair have done their homework and realised more flights=busier airport=chance of holding (such an issue in your eyes yet the flights still keep coming from a multitude of airlines including Ryanair).
I have seen no comments whatsoever from airlines stating they are unhappy with holding at MAN (or anywhere else for that matter), they just seem to be announcing more routes, so pray tell where this grave concern of the LPL supporter is born?

Just as a point, when do these big issues holding take place? On FR24 I only notice it in the peak periods or if there is an incident or weather. Often its only 1 loop, which in reality is not much more of a fuel burn than the down wind finals then approach to LPL I see constantly from the southerly approaches.

Also, as a side note, lets just imagine for one moment LPL was as busy as MAN, would these holds be the same scourge you portray them to be at MAN or would you accept that its just a by-product of a busy airport, because I certainly think your tune would change of the shoe was placed on the other foot.

[airadio]

Lax totally agree with you I do Support Liverpool but not in the way these fanatical supports do.A while back a made a comment on another forum,saying that if Liverpool continued to lose paps there will be a time the owners would call it a white elephant and sell it this got me a ban on that forum.. some idiot on that forum uses that as his signature naming me but he fails to see that things are moving that way not closure but a scalding down of the airport .
He doesn't even see what is happening just spins things like this will happen that will happen but it wont

[AndyH52]

So, the airport has lost pax numbers. What if it has increased revenue per pax in the same way that it's main operators have? Is it better to earn £1 a passenger on 5 million, or £2 on 4 million, whilst improving the overall passenger experience and increasing on time performance? Headline figures tell only part of the story.

LPL has mid or long term deals in place with its three key operators. Consolidation is frustrating for the airport's supporters in the short term, but growth will return as the economy picks up.

[airadio]

See what I mean long term deals Wizz drop a route Norg leaving :ugh: no growth from the big two virtually every other airport is expanding my point is proven

[LAX_LHR]

LPL has mid or long term deals in place with its three key operators


Id trust those deals as far as I could throw them. Wizz signed 5 year deal including growth, yet they have actually shrunk.

Norwegian also signed a 5 year deal. Can I book LPL-CPH after March 28th.......

Yes there may be a chance its all a ruse and things could pick up with bases and blah de blah, but come on, hardly inspires the confidence, does it?


Consolidation is frustrating for the airport's supporters in the short
term


Frustration is one thing, but these random 'factoids' spouted whilst the real world situation tell a different story, like these supposed 'long holds' that will push Ryanair and the likes over to LPL are something else.

[globetrotter79]

Although I hate to say it - I suppose with flyBe's announcement that the IOM base is to close there must be a real risk that they might ditch the IOM-LPL route?

[virginblue]

Can't they crew it from the enlarged MAN base with the aircraft overnighting at LPL?

[EZY7117LPL]

Flybe have not said any routes are ending, they have actually infered the opposite. So either it will be crewed from MAN (or another base) or it will operate something like SOU-LPL-IOM-LPL-SOU for example (it could be a different base).

[FRatSTN]

Well that would require at SOU-LPL route so doubt that would happen.

SOU-IOM-LPL-IOM-SOU maybe??

Would mean the route couldn't operate into LPL at 7:45am or what ever it is and probably not an 8:00pm departure either.

Could base or night stop an aircraft in Liverpool possibly?? They might even night stop in the Isle of Man but without a base??

[Boeing737-8]

Eleven more airports, including Luton and Stansted, to use full-body scanners | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/21/airports-full-body-scanners-stansted-luton-liverpool)

[Cleared For A Coffee]

So if the rumours of Ryanair down to 5 based aircraft, Flybe pulling the IOM route & Norwegian pulling the CPH route are true where does LPL go from there?

Potentially by next Summer LPL could be down to; 6 based EZY, 5 based RYR & the odd Wizzair flight. Just 3 scheduled airlines!

It's all went very, very quiet...

[chaps2011]

I thought it was 4 FR

Chaps

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Looking at the schedule at the minute it still appears to be 5

[FRatSTN]

I said 4 a/c for FR on the Ryanair thread but apologies it does indeed seem to be 5. Still a reduction from 6 but early days yet.


Flybe have confirmed they are keeping the IOM route and EasyJet are 7 a/c so suppose that's some good news.


But so far, next year looks to be EasyJet with 7 a/c, Ryanair with 5, Flybe keeping IOM at still 24x weekly (but I would imagine that will reduce if/when IOM base closes), and Wizz with 5 weekly departures.


Compare that to 2011...


EasyJet with 10 a/c, Ryanair with 8, Flybe operating up to 8 departures a day, Wizz up to 10 weekly departures, KLM 3x daily and Eastern Airways 4x daily.


That is a whopping decline really in a fairly short time. Makes me wonder if the management of Liverpool are really that committed.

[airadio]

LJLA is in talks with its bankers after submitting a £7.1million loss.
I did say about two years ago that the losses can not continue, and with no new growth and more flights being reduced or stopped it looks as though my prediction may come true I am sorry to say

[eggc]

Sorry to read that. LPL is between a rock and a hard place. MAN decided it wanted more of the loco cake which has affected RYR and EZY's operations there. They can't charge less or they'll lose even more money, but they can't charge more either without possibly losing even more to MAN. They need to attract more carriers, but that will be no easy task either. Not sure what they can do :( Hope a solution can be found as there is obviously a market for LPL, they just have to try harder to find it.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Liverpool's current throughput of around 4 million ppa is still a healthy total to work with in comparison to many other airports. Several UK airports dream of achieving such heights. Whilst a drop in throughput is perceived as disappointing, it is important to recall that LPL grew very rapidly from 250K to over 5 million ppa, so even a pullback to 4m ppa doesn't necessarily leave the business in a hopeless place. Of course, it is up to the management to monetise that passenger throughput, as we presume that the no-frills carrier customer base is not contributing significantly to the bottom line via direct fees. We must also factor in that cargo used to be a big deal at LPL and that sector now scarcely registers. GA still appears healthy.

The resolution to financial losses will most likely come in the form of cost savings and (sadly) job reductions. This would be a painful process, but an airport business enjoying 4m ppa throughput should not be under significant threat provided that costs can be reduced to more closely match income. Remember that many European airports are holding their own with a fraction of LPL's traffic levels.

Liverpool still has a decent catchment area to call its own even without significant contribution from Manchester. LPL management were surely aware that their MAN counterparts would eventually get their act together on no-frills carriers and reclaim many of the customers leaking from their own immediate catchment area. MAN's no-frills sector ineptitude / complacency gave LPL an artificial leg-up for several years. Now that MAG is finally competing robustly for this business, some reversal of LPL's fortunes was inevitable. But a rapid expansion from 250K to 4m ppa still leaves LPL a healthy legacy to build on despite the brief flirtation with even higher numbers. The existing flight programme is the bread and butter of the business; this is what really matters. New services are a bonus and there will always be times when the going is tough.

[BasilBush]

Historically 4 million passengers would have been a recipe for good profits at an airport. But that was before the new generation of airport owners started to give away airport capacity for peanuts, eager to gain first mover advantage in attracting low-cost carriers. The chickens are now coming home to roost, whether at Liverpool, Prestwick, Cardiff, Doncaster or wherever. And the situation has not been helped by ever-increasing security-related costs etc, which airports have found it difficult to pass onto customers, further squeezing profits. A vicious circle, I'm afraid. And in the case of Liverpool, it's difficult to see the same "tooth fairy" saviour as has happened with the taxpayer picking up the tab for future losses at Cardiff and Prestwick.

Even so, Liverpool is in a better position than those other airports. At least it makes a profit before debt service, which is not the case at the other sick airports. The problem is that Liverpool's shareholders borrowed a lot of money when times were good and the banks were feeling generous (or foolhardy). Now times are less good and the banks are less generous. Somehow the airport has to repay/refinance its bank debt. At other airports (eg Bristol) this has involved shareholders putting their hands in their pockets. But are Liverpool's newer shareholders in a position to do this? If not, a chunk of the airport could end up being owned by the banks....

[Mouser]

Can't be arsed going into detail but, on the positive passenger figures up last month and so far this month also.

[AndyH52]

It's a non-story. The airport is profitable (£5.2m in 2012/13) but has debts to service which resulted in an overall loss in the accounts. The shareholders are seeking to get better terms on serving that debt as would any responsible business. Read beyond the sensationalist headlines.

[eggc]

Pax figures up 10% I believe in the last couple of months, which has got to help :ok:

On the other hand its the financial experts that think there is a problem not the headline writers as we know they'll make it sound worse...

But auditors from KPMG nevertheless warned there was a "material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt on the company's ability to continue as a going concern".

...which sounds a little more of an issue than a non-story.

The debt will be renegotiated though in Q1 14, and the airport will continue, but where does LPL go next ? Debt or no debt, the future isn't going to be easy at Speak while MAG is flirting with the lo-co's.

[Mouser]

The Liverpool (negative) Echo, failed to mention that Leeds Bradford are doing the same, talking with its banks, and Birmingham and Bristol have also done this in the past.

[MANFOD]

Re pax figures, I read it as up 2% for the month of December but a 10% rise in the first week of 2014.

Nevertheless, the airport must be relieved to see an increase after a long period of contraction.

If FR are 5 based a/c for s2014, and EZY 7 based, is this the same as last year?

[BasilBush]

The auditors' qualification means that it is probably more serious than you think. Yes, all airports have to refinance their debts when they fall due. The problem arises when existing bank debt has to be repaid (as seems to be the case at LPL) and the banks are no longer willing to lend as much to the airport as they did in the past. When this has happened elsewhere (eg Bristol) the shareholders have had deep pockets and have made up the difference from their own resources. In the case of LPL it is far from clear that Vantage, for example, have the funds to do this, now that their tie-up with Citibank has fallen away.

The airport will continue operating, but the future ownership structure may change.

[Mouser]

Peel have big deep pockets.