The age old debate - 3 pointer or Wheeler

[piperboy84]

I know this one’s been beaten to death and some folks have very strong opinions about the subject but here goes.

In the tail dragger world there is a feeling that not only should a TD jockey be competent at wheeler landings but they are also the best landing method in a cross wind situation. I demonstrated to my CFI that I have the ability to do them to a level where he signed off on my TD endorsement; however I have never done them since and don’t plan to for the following reason(s)

1. The manufacturer of my aircraft (Maule) says don’t do them, instead they recommend a no flap 3 pointer in X winds. This is not stated in the Maule POH but suggested to me by Mr. Ray Maule himself while flying with him.

2. The reason TD pilots state a wheeler is the preferred method in XW is you can run out of rudder authority in a 3 pointer, however the Maule has a big old rudder compared to most small tail draggers and my feeling is that if the xwind is blowing hard enough to exceed the rudder in a 3 pointer, I as a low time pilot am not going to be landing in those conditions anyway and will instead divert to a field with more suitable wind direction. Also the demonstrated xwind limitation is 14MPH which isn’t much.

With the above in mind does anyone have any good argument as to why I should be doing wheelers?

[foxmoth]

I will only say that I prefer wheeler landings in crosswinds and have landed with no problem a lot of aircraft in strong crosswinds that I have been told are a REAL problem in crosswinds, I think this must say something about the technique.
Having said that I did the Extra convex and was told to three point, still not the experience on type to do otherwise and read a lot about this sort of ac that says to stay with three pointing.

[piperboy84]

Another argument I have heard against the wheeler is that all the wheeler is doing is delaying the problem of yaw( albeit to a slower speed point) because just prior to the tail dropping when both rudder authority and airspeed are low you are then actually more exposed to ground loop as the mains will more readily pivot due to not having the friction of the tail hard into the ground that you would in a 3 pointer.

Also approach/touchdown speeds in a wheeler are generally faster than for a 3 pointer which again will need longer to bleed off speed giving a longer period of exposure to the XW and more scope to start drifting.

[taybird]

I don't think there's a single definitive answer.

Some types I fly definitely prefer a three-pointer, no matter what.
Others are strictly wheeler types in any conditions.
Some can be either, and the conditions will dictate which is the most appropriate.

The first two cases are more determined by the aircraft. In the latter case, I've used a wheeler approach in unpleasant conditions to allow myself extra speed on the approach in order to ride gusts more safely - of the order of an extra 10+mph over normal approach speeds. The wheeler meant I could still put the aeroplane down safely even though carrying some additional momentum. The higher winds sorted out the ground roll for me.

For crosswinds, I prefer to take as much as I can out of the crosswind, landing diagonally if necessary. In some types, a wheeler can help with additional control ability, but also bring with them additional risks in that tighter control must be kept on inputs, as well as careful consideration if / when using brakes.

Just IMO. Not super experienced, just what I've picked up so far.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Three point or wheel landings can be type specific, however I have yet to fly a tail wheel airplane that could not be wheel landed.

The wheel landing gives one better directional control at wheel contact with the surface and if directional control becomes a problem you have the inertia for a go around by just powering up to take off power.

Conversely....if the airplane is not tracking straight down the runway at touch down in the three point landing you have very little inertia for a go around......in fact your go around may be a ground loop. :E

[Big Pistons Forever]

My 02 cents

I pretty much exclusively 3 point the light 2 seaters.

Heavier 4 seaters, 3 point or wheelie is more type dependent although in practice I would say mostly 3 point because I find it easy.

The big traildraggers and all the twin engine ones I exclusively wheel land

When I teach tailwheel flying flying I concentrate on the 3 point and only introduce wheel landings at the end. I tell low time students if conditions are such you are having difficulty controlling the aircraft in the flare for a 3 point immediately go around and find a better situation. If it is not safe to 3 point it it is IMO not safe to wheel land it.

[IFMU]

I learned to fly in a 1946 PA12. My primary instructor was convinced that because wheel landings were more difficult to learn (in his opinion) that we should focus on them. I got very good at wheel landings and I was weak in 3-point landings. Fast forward 15 years and my introduction to Harris Hill. The runway there is a lot shorter than places I had routinely landed. This is where I learned to 3-point. Now I am probably weak in wheel landings just because I don't fly them much on the hill.

When I was learning acro in the pitts, my instructor preferred 3-point. I wheel landed the airplane consistently, because of my skewed skills back then. My acro instructor, a very experienced pilot, felt that wheel landings were fine the way I was doing them in the pitts, as I found the wheels each time and they were good landings.

Personally I don't have a bias. I think you should work at being good at both of them.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

When I teach pilots to fly tail wheel airplanes I do not take them flying until they can control it safely on the runway on the main wheels, once they can safely do that we go flying. Of course one needs an airport where the traffic allows runs down the runway with a reject before the end to do that.

They must be comfortable with both three point and wheel landings if I am teaching them on light single engine airplanes.....wheel landings are great for teaching smooth accurate flares to the landing.

Ya-all have to give me some slack here because tail wheel airplanes were all we had when I learned to fly. :ok:

[2hotwot]

Some aircraft like the Tiger Moth have a tail skid, likewise a Stampe and some Austers with castoring tailwheels which means that they don't have much directional control from ground contact, most of it being aerodynamic from the rudder which means at low speeds with fuselage blanking, not much at all. In crosswinds this directional control can be seriously lacking and with the CofG being behind the wheels any crosswind induced swing can get out of hand quite quickly, hence the advice on certain types to keep the rudder in clean air through a wheeler landing and thus maintain directional control for as long as possible during the rollout.
However some aeroplanes have good ground steering systems on the tailwheel and the mainwheels set further forward which means there is more weight on the tailwheel. In these types it is best to get all three wheels firmly on the ground as soon as possible, even tailwheel first in some cases, so that the tailwheel steering is available immediately to keep the runout straight. This also means that when the rudder inevitably stalls in the crosswind that directional control is maintained.
So IMHO wheelers are courses for horses. Take advice of the POH and those knowledgeable on type. I believe some of the big-pistons had tailwheels which were locked after taxy on lineup and I have never seen a Dakota three-pointed. Someone tell me differently?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

and I have never seen a Dakota three-pointed. Someone tell me differently?

The Dak is easy to three point......but it would be real weird for the passengers.

I have done it numerous times just for something to do, but never with passengers.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Weeell the Chipmunk has a fully castoring tailwheel (great for doing 360s on the ground pivoting around one mainwheel!) and usually I three-point it. But I love wheeling it on, too, and will usually do so in a big x-wind (but not always :) ). Wheelers in a strong wind are fun!

It's nice, with about 30 knots down the strip, to wheel it on and then stop with the tail up! (OK, it doesn't stay up for long).

And high speed taxying, tail up, sure checks out your rudder feet! Don't do this unless you have a lot of time on the aeroplane as you'll roll it into a ball if you ground loop (I've got 32 years on the dHC1, but have been doing that for a while!).

[Pilot DAR]

It seems to me that the preference of wheel or three point landing is to some degree type dependant. I was taught to three point, and thats what I generally do. However my taildragger amphibian really prefers to be wheel landed, which I learned by complete coincidence.

The SM1019 is best three pointed, as the prop is large, and probably very expensive should it contact the ground. Plus, it's so much fun selecting reverse on touchdown, so you want the tail on already. I never tried to wheel land it, though I'm sure it would work. When I was trained on the turbine DC-3, I was told to never three point it. I don't have anything like Chuck's experience on them, but I know what I was trained, and it works.

I had to check myself out in the Tiger Moth last winter. I was nervous of that, so I three pointed it, and that worked fine.

[PowerDragTrim]

3 point light aircraft, but wheel on a DC3!

[twelveoclockhigh]

Strip length comes into it as well - I find that my wheelers use up much more of the runway - on a short strip I would always do a three pointer.

[waldopepper42]

Just to throw one more point into,the pot, the tail wheel on the Extra 230 was it's weakest point. Therefore tail low wheelers with a slight check forward on long Tarmac runways were my preferred option!

[betterfromabove]

Can anyone definitively say why Jodels are not meant to be wheeled on?

Have heard opinions it is something to do with the undercarriage springiness or prop clearance, but nothing cast-iron.

Mine has sensitive rudders, especially on tarmac, so it would seem a good candidate to wheel on wouldn't it?

[S-Works]

I fly tailwheel aircraft for a living and thus have several thousand landings.

My only comment on this is, use the landing appropriate for the conditions and the aircraft. There are many ways to skin a cat.....

[Maoraigh1]

Can anyone definitively say why Jodels are not meant to be wheeled on?
I often wheel on our Jodel DR1050, and that is news to me. In gusty crosswinds, on hard runways, all I want is to land gently and keep control. I know the manual recomends a tailwheel first touchdown.

[robin]

Not sure what the problem is.

I've never had to land the Jodel on a wheeler. In my experience they land perfectly well in strong winds on a 3-pointer, or, in a crosswind, a 2-pointer.

[India Four Two]

My experience is mainly in Chipmunks and Bellanca Scouts, but also a few hours in various Citabrias (and Champs), Super Cubs, Tiger Moths and a Stearman. I've almost always landed using three-pointers, except when requested to demonstrate wheel-landings during checkouts in Canada. Thinking back to my UAS Chipmunk days, I don't remember being taught anything but three-pointers. Can someone confirm this?

In the Scout while glider towing at wave sites, I have routinely used full-flap three-pointers up to the demonstrated cross-wind of 15 kts (well, to be pedantic, and as robin said, initially they are two-pointers! ;)).

[Chuck Ellsworth]

These discussions go on and on and on.............

...............for me personally I will not approve any pilot on a tail wheel airplane unless said pilot is equally proficient and comfortable doing both wheel landings and three point landings.

That solves the puzzle of what type of landing the pilot will decide to do based on the conditions and the airplane being flown.....

Having flown a whole lot of tail wheel airplanes for thousands and thousands of hours there was only one airplane I did not three point because I felt it was just to risky to contact the runway without effective rudder control which it did not have near the point of stall.

That airplane was the Turbo Goose.

[2hotwot]

The reason given for tailwheel first landing on a Jodel was that it had a low ground angle and landing that way gave a marginally slower touchdown and thus shorter landing run.

[robin]

... and the cranked wing helps with a wing-down approach all the way down.

[foxmoth]

and the cranked wing helps with a wing-down approach all the way down.

What has that got to do with wheeling it on? My preferred technique in a crosswind is wing down wheeler, so with that comment I am more likely to look at wheeling it than 3 (2) pointing, and personally never had a problem wheeling on a Jodel.

[robin]

Your aircraft, your choice.

Personally I've never had the need to wheel it on, as yet. The only problem I've experienced is trying to taxi in strong winds afterwards.

[betterfromabove]

Thanks for all the input on the Jodel question.

Part of the reason I ask is that it occurred to me that if you abort a T/O with the tail up, then you are effectively in a wheeler-like scenario....and it got me wondering again what was the concern in putting the plane in roughly the same configuration (45-50kts, tail up) on landing?

2hotwot - Found your explanation regarding tailskids vs wheels very enlightening.