Qantas August 23rd announcements

[bdcer]

That's the one of the funniest things I've seen! Many a true word said in jest!! It's almost as funny as Keg's picture of the QF32 book in the fiction section!!!

[Fris B. Fairing]

Easy to do when "Qantas" is followed by "customers" but was it a spoonerism or a Freudian slip? Or maybe the lovely lady is Japanese?

[4Greens]

One issue that should be kept in mind in the current demise of Qantas long haul is the loss of capability for military/civilian emergencies. Qantas is indeed the fourth arm of the military. Remember Darwin for example.

[V-Jet]

Contact Greg Hoy at 730 if you have any 'good' questions you wish to have answered. It may not solve anything, but it may get more of the point across.

He is interested o hear from people about Qantas:

[email protected]

He is also a nice bloke...

[Barry Mundy]

isnt that how AJ used to pronounce QANTAS before calling it "the company"? It seems he now has been coached into its correct pronounciation.

[Goddamnslacker]

If International is loosing so much money why dont they drop the A380 of those routes and fly them domestically...
It seems strange that AJ grounded the fleet when No industrial action was happening and it cost so much money but yet the International arm, if it loosing so much money would have been a cost offset as there were no flights to loose on...
I think its time Jetstar Domestic and Jetstar International were all separated to show there actual costs, revenue and operational expenses...just like Bristish Airways were forced to do with "Go".
Which they sold off as it was bleeding the main carrier dry with costs...

[piston broke again]

And somehow he orchestrated a grounding of the fleet on a whim after waking up on a Saturday morning. Conveniently when the stock market is closed. (thankfully not a busy weekday....but no it wasn't pre planned at all *cough*)

[SOPS]

V Jet, tell Mr Greg Hoy, that if he does not already, just to monitor this page on PPrune. He will all the questions (and I might add, facts), that he will ever need.

[The lens]

Apologies for the thread drift, but just for the record:

Qantas Heavy Maintenance Melbourne closing down ceremony was held today at the maintenance facility: photo display; speeches; formal 'last gang photo' pics; food; souvenir book; the last B737 to be checked and delivered by Melb. Heavy Maintenance ceremoniously towed through a water arch created by two fire tenders........

Very sad occasion. We may not know the full ramifications from the decision to close this facility and its support workshops for some years.

In memory of all who served at 'the maintenance base Tulla', whether in the hangar or 'inside', i.e. workshops/process shops):
Trans-Australia Airlines: 1971-1986;
Australian Airlines: 1986-1992;
Qantas Airways: 1992-2012.

'We were the champions!'

Goodnight and goodbye.

[Mstr Caution]

Where did the money come from for the initial investment in Jetstar Japan?

Curious if that has been allocated somewhere on the books?

[Redpanda]

And us Line Maintenance guys finish up tomorrow..........

Ahh well, 35 years......... It was a good innings.

(Not sorry I'm going, though)

[gobbledock]

Very sad occasion. We may not know the full ramifications from the decision to close this facility and its support workshops for some years.
Just keep watching the news headlines, all the ramifications will become clearly evident........

[Mstr Caution]

And somehow he orchestrated a grounding of the fleet on a whim after waking up on a Saturday morning.

Greg Hoy should take a stroll out to Focus press & get the lowdown on the printing and or destruction instructions of the lock out notices.

:suspect:

[QF94]

QF Melb. B737 Heavy Maintenance
Apologies for the thread drift, but just for the record:

Qantas Heavy Maintenance Melbourne closing down ceremony was held today at the maintenance facility: photo display; speeches; formal 'last gang photo' pics; food; souvenir book; the last B737 to be checked and delivered by Melb. Heavy Maintenance ceremoniously towed through a water arch created by two fire tenders........

Very sad occasion. We may not know the full ramifications from the decision to close this facility and its support workshops for some years.

In memory of all who served at 'the maintenance base Tulla', whether in the hangar or 'inside', i.e. workshops/process shops):
Trans-Australia Airlines: 1971-1986;
Australian Airlines: 1986-1992;
Qantas Airways: 1992-2012.

'We were the champions!'

Goodnight and goodbye.

Very sad occasion indeed. I had some good times down there, and feel for the guys that have had to go before their time. A great loss to the airline/aviation industry, just as Ansett was a loss across the road. I will be contacting you guys soon. Till then take care and hold your heads high that you were the best there was for the domestic maintenance.

[QF94]

K9P wrote:
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Isn't that how this thread started? QANTAS lose $245million, QANTAS International dragging the group down, High oil prices blamed for additional costs and lack of incoming tourists blamed on high Aussie dollar, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH........

Ushuaia wrote:
Yes, lies, damned lies and statistics is right.

You cannot just grab May 2012's figures, make sweeping statements about maintaining a double market share over the next airline and then somehow translate that into things not changing much over time. I don't have the time to drag out all the references, but yes, delving back into time: about 10-15 years ago Qantas International had a bit over 35% of the traffic out of Australia. Now it has 18%, and the Group has 26% of the traffic when you include Jetstar. So overall, over time, yes, market share has been lost.

Yes I can and I did. I used the most recent figures that are applicable to the current situation, and yes I have taken the time to peruse the previous figures and they remain fairly consistent. 10-15 years ago, we didn't have Jetstar, Scoot, Air AsiaX, Etihad, Emirates, Virgin Atlantic, Virgin Australia (international) and Tiger flying our skies. I deliberately omitted Jetstar from the statistics as I was highlighting QANTAS International's figures, not the QANTAS Group, as it is continually and clearly stated that QANTAS International is dragging the profits down and absorbing 38% Group's invested capital.

Market share has been "lost" due to the cutting back of routes or handing routes over to Jetstar or "Alliance Partners".

There are a number of reasons for this: extra capacity is one very big reason but the other reason is we have driven customers to that alternative capacity. You just have to ask Joe Public - they "used to fly Qantas but, sorry, now I am flying XYZ." I have alluded already to the reasons why QF has driven customers away.

The Joe Public I ask must be different to your Joe Public. People I speak with want to fly QANTAS wherever they can and do so, but their options are limited, and getting less, BUT they still choose to fly QANTAS.

There's no argument what AJ and Co are doing to QANTAS International, and that is stripping it back to almost nothing.

[Lodown]

QF94: you can put me on the list that chooses not to fly QF. Haven't done so for about 4 years now after a 48 hour journey with connections to a destination in the US for an expected 24 hour trip. In concert with previous less-than-expected flight experiences, that was the last straw for me. I understand crap happens, as it does to all airlines, but QF staffs' handling of the matter was abysmal and without empathy.

One thing for the employees to blame management for all the woes. It's another thing when you see the same nonchalent, ambivalent attitude pervading the service levels to the customer from a significant proportion of the frontline staff. (Was this also apparent in the LAX PJ affair?) Difficult to feel any sympathy for the fortunes of the airline or its employees. I'm sure there are lots of ex-customers with similar stories and unfortunately, once the customers are gone, they cost an arm and a leg to get back. And what's worse is that they, like me, finding the other operators exceeding QF in perceived value, are strongly encouraging acquaintances to try the other airlines when next they travel.

[Sunfish]

I'm with Lodown since my last flight with Qantas - about 2002 to LAX and beyond Business class $7000 bucks worth - the flight was cancelled at pushback after a spoiler actuator leak was discovered. Unloaded, transit to fcuking Sydney, shoved on board a LAX bound flight and ignored across the Pacific and then ignored back to Australia Three weeks later. I had better service on American economy domestic flights then Qantas business class.

Qantas : tired aircraft, tired product, tired and disillusioned staff.

And no. The A380, Grange and Neill Perry menus don't do it any more.

I don't know anyone who will willingly fly Qantas if they can avoid it. Everyone is after Etihad, Emirates or Singapore direct out of Melbourne.

[hiwaytohell]

For those that did not see Dawe & Clarke last night; 7.30 - ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3579650.htm)

BRYAN DAWE: OK, so what do you do, Morris?

JOHN CLARKE: What do I do?

BRYAN DAWE: Yeah.

JOHN CLARKE: I work for Qantas.

BRYAN DAWE: Oh, really? Lucky you. What do you do there?

JOHN CLARKE: Well, every week we load a whole lotta jobs into a big cannon, and then on the Friday ...

BRYAN DAWE: You fire it.

JOHN CLARKE: No, we photograph it and we email the photograph to all staff.

BRYAN DAWE: Why?

JOHN CLARKE: Well it's character-building, we feel.

BRYAN DAWE: Keeps them on their toes?

JOHN CLARKE: It does. We've got a very happy staff down there.

[Ushuaia]

Well QF94, you must only be talking to 18.4% of Joe Public. That's using the figures you presented here; they show that 81.6% of Joe Public is flying with someone else. And that number is greater than what it was 10-15 years ago. That cannot be disputed. Even after you strip out the cannibalizing of mainline by JQ, more pax ARE flying with non QF Group airlines compared to 10-15 years ago.

The reasons are complex but basically come down to: QF doesn't fly to where the pax want to go; there's a growing perception of it becoming less "Australian"; a growing perception of slipping safety standards; variable cabin experience; expensive; a dislike of the JQ alternative; a massive increase in capacity/alternative airlines. Oh, and another one: internationally they can never use their FF points when and how they want. Ask them. FF Business is a "fantastic business", just not for the pax. I am constantly hearing tales of pax abandoning QF international for SQ/EK/etc despite holding wads of FF points (they will use the points domestically instead, certainly).

That pretty much sums up what is on a passenger's mind when they think/say: "I'd really like to fly QF internationally, but I can get to Paris with EK for less money, faster and they are a good product, I hear. Oh and QF used to be the safest but, well, what about all those problems they have had recently?"

Para 2 is where QF needs to focus its "four-pillar" strategy!

[600ft-lb]

I'm not one to defend alan joyce and co so don't think that.

But to compare with EK, they can load passengers up from all corners of the globe, from their hub position in the world, and then ship the ones who want to, off to Paris for example is a bit unfair and part of the reason the middle eastern carriers even exist in their current size and form today.

Qantas can take pax from Australia and ship them to either Singapore to codeshare with someone else or LHR. That's it west of Australia. That's not alan joyces fault, nor geoff dixons. It's a disadvantage and it needs to be recognised as no ones fault but geography.

Hence the reason there is the big push to base out of Singapore in the future with the 787's. Just you wait, they will all be based out of SIN, Jetstar will morph into a full service carrier with a LCC cost base and will be able to pick up passengers from all corners of Asia and ship them off the European destinations. Just like Emirates.

The question is, does Qantas tie up with someone that lets them share a hub or do they go it alone with Jetstar/RedQ/whatever in a 2nd country. At the moment I reckon they're hedging bets. That's where the 787-9s will go or at least the majority.

[1746]

To all of you in Melbourne Heavy and Line - all the best!
You were the best and the likes of your knowledge, experience and ability have been sadly under estimated!:mad::mad::mad:
You will be missed by all of us!
Collectively, I would like to thank you for your friendship and help over the decades.:D:D:D
I wish you health and happiness as you depart the shell of what used to be - Bon Voyage!
1746

[QF94]

Sunfish, Ushuaia and to all those that have had bad experiences with QANTAS and dislike it it for whatever their reasons. This is a personal choice and that's fair enough. I'm not trying to woo you back to QANTAS and am happy for you to fly with the airline of your choice that suits your needs and satisfies your expectations.

QF doesn't fly to where the pax want to go; there's a growing perception of it becoming less "Australian"

What I'm about to say will not please many, if any, but as we are all free to voice our opinions, I will do the same, as this is the Australian thing to do, and this doesn't relate to just QANTAS. The same can be said for the passengers and Australians in general, becoming "less Australian". What's the worst thing you can call an Australian? UnAustralian. They're quite happy to let everything "Australian" disappear or become diluted around them, because "Australian" products don't suit them or serve their needs, because foriegn products serve them better, or are simply better in their own minds.

Is QANTAS perfect? Far from it. Does QANTAS have the best service? No. What is the best service? Who knows? This is a personal choice, and there are those that think Singapore has the best, those that think Emirates is the best and those that think QANTAS has the best and stay with them. Say what you like, there are people who believe QANTAS has a service that suits their needs. Mock and knock, but it's a reality.

We will never agree on everything, but that's life. Has QANTAS slipped from where it was years ago? Most definitely. What's the fix? People on here believe for it to disappear or to shrink and become a feeder airline for airlines of their choice. I disagree, but that's what forums are all about.

We are quick to knock our own products and talk them down (a bit like AJ and Co) but when they disappear one by one (remember Ansett, owned by a foreign airline and then sent bust, and plenty more like them) people, not unlike yourselves, will just shrug your shoulders and say "What a shame. They were a great company" and continue on their merry way supporting and funding foreign companies and foreign workers, no matter the industry. I guess that's what happens when people have become too accustomed to perceived champagne service, on beer budgets and intolerant of anything less than "perfect".

[cart_elevator]

So FRA is now another destination going? Jeez!!! That will only mean more crew surplus,what a sad state of affairs :(

[4Greens]

For Vjet: Have contacted as suggested.

[QF94]

So FRA is now another destination going? Jeez!!! That will only mean more crew surplus,what a sad state of affairs http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

Just so long as it's not a quiet acquisition of QANTAS by Emirates, or that they become the International arm of QANTAS from Australian ports, which I think could be quite likely. This would justify AJ not having to transform the International arm, and just hand it over to EK.

I can hear the distant tapping of another nail in the QANTAS coffin.

We'll just wait and see.

[QF94]

Once QF is down, Emirates will not let it back up, QF will never fly to Europe again.

There'll be many a happy camper on this forum then.

[HMMECH]

I wonder if the QF 787-9 cancelled order has been picked up by EK?

[Transition Layer]

Sunfish
I'm with Lodown since my last flight with Qantas - about 2002 to LAX

I'm usually a massive fan of yours Sunfish, but to base your opinion of today's Qantas from a flight 10 years ago isn't exactly fair.

That was pre-(lie flat) skybed, pre A380, pre-Panasonic IFE, and not a true representation of the Qantas today. All airlines have improved out of sight as well, but you might be pleasantly surprised, you never know.

[QF94]

Sunfish

Quote:
I'm with Lodown since my last flight with Qantas - about 2002 to LAX
I'm usually a massive fan of yours Sunfish, but to base your opinion of today's Qantas from a flight 10 years ago isn't exactly fair.

That was pre-(lie flat) skybed, pre A380, pre-Panasonic IFE, and not a true representation of the Qantas today. All airlines have improved out of sight as well, but you might be pleasantly surprised, you never know.

Transition Layer,

I wouldn't bother with the likes of these guys. The dislike/hatred of QANTAS is obviously so ingrained, QANTAS will never be good enough for them. You could liken it to Grumpy Old Men. Once they don't like you, you'll never be good enough.

[SOPS]

EK does not want 787s, they are too small.If they wanted them, TC would have ordered them ages ago.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

AJ is selling the farm

The little pr#@k can't even do that, he is now just giving it away.

Emirates have said they won't take an equity stake in Qantas but Joyce is so desperate to offload Mainline he is prepared to give us away to anyone for next to nothing. We must be getting closer and closer to the end, time to update the cv I think. :(
Truth is there will be more and more surplus crew. Alan Joyce has turned us into an international aviation joke, and his international Jetstar dream is not going to save the group, brand loyalty to the group will die with the dead Kangaroo. :mad: :mad:

[QF94]

At least QANTAS have a museum already set up in Longreach for anyone interested in seeing what was.

[ohallen]

Now lets wait and see if AJ suddenly resigns and turns up at EK in a few months if this deal goes ahead.

[QF94]

Now lets wait and see if AJ suddenly resigns and turns up at EK in a few months if this deal goes ahead.

Why would they do that? Emirates isn't ready to downsize just yet. Maybe they could give him a job cleaning out the toilet tanks. He'd fit in very well.

[gobbledock]

Now lets wait and see if AJ suddenly resigns and turns up at EK in a few months if this deal goes ahead.
Seriously, who would hire the weazel. Hew took a company from a plus $980 mil profit to a negative $240 mil in the red in a couple of years! He couldnt manage a backyard potato farm.
No, his CV should read 'NEVER TO BE EMPLOYED'.

[DJ737]

Why would anyone fly MEL/SYD/BNE/PER/ADL on QF to DXB then transfer to EK, when they can fly MEL/SYD/BNE/PER/ADL on EK to DXB then transfer to EK? :rolleyes:

[Sunfish]

QF94, I'm running on my IPad I my boat so I can't quote you.

You exemplify Qantas and why so many of us will never fly you again.

You put my $7000 bad experience down to sour grapes. I had to earn that money. Qantas will not get a cent from me ever again, and there are thousands like me, thanks to sky gods like you.

[donpizmeov]

It is funny how the world turns. In the 90s EK and QF code shared, but this ended when QF put pressure EK getting landing rights into Oz. At that time EK had 33 aeroplanes and the QF fleet was nearly 5 times that size. Today EK has 190ish widebodies, and the total QF fleet is 138, of which 64 are 737. Good effort to the QF managers to achieve this.
Launching a flock of QF 787s from the major OZ ports to arrive into DXB and then shuffle the pax to continue onto multiple destinations in Europe would kick some life into the Roo. But this would need some interest in growing the business rather than controlling costs until all costs are gone.

The Don

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Why would anyone fly MEL/SYD/BNE/PER/ADL on QF to DXB then transfer to EK, when they can fly MEL/SYD/BNE/PER/ADL on EK to DXB then transfer to EK?

They won't. This will be the end for QF LH ops westbound for sure.

The only positive thing I can possibly see coming out of this is if EK demand QF link up flights from the US to Australia to their network. That could lead to the possibility of QF going back to SFO, maybe even operating to Seattle and link through South America somewhere other than Santiago to provide a global coverage.

Tell him he's dreamin! :rolleyes:

[QF94]

Sunfish wrote:
I'm with Lodown since my last flight with Qantas - about 2002 to LAX and beyond Business class $7000 bucks worth - the flight was cancelled at pushback after a spoiler actuator leak was discovered. Unloaded, transit to fcuking Sydney, shoved on board a LAX bound flight and ignored across the Pacific and then ignored back to Australia Three weeks later. I had better service on American economy domestic flights then Qantas business class.

Qantas : tired aircraft, tired product, tired and disillusioned staff.

And no. The A380, Grange and Neill Perry menus don't do it any more.

I don't know anyone who will willingly fly Qantas if they can avoid it. Everyone is after Etihad, Emirates or Singapore direct out of Melbourne.

Since you can't quote me Sunfish, let me get that for you Sir.

QF94 wrote:
Sunfish, Ushuaia and to all those that have had bad experiences with QANTAS and dislike it it for whatever their reasons. This is a personal choice and that's fair enough. I'm not trying to woo you back to QANTAS and am happy for you to fly with the airline of your choice that suits your needs and satisfies your expectations.

QF94 also wrote:
Is QANTAS perfect? Far from it. Does QANTAS have the best service? No. What is the best service? Who knows? This is a personal choice, and there are those that think Singapore has the best, those that think Emirates is the best and those that think QANTAS has the best and stay with them. Say what you like, there are people who believe QANTAS has a service that suits their needs. Mock and knock, but it's a reality.

and:
Transition Layer,

I wouldn't bother with the likes of these guys. The dislike/hatred of QANTAS is obviously so ingrained, QANTAS will never be good enough for them. You could liken it to Grumpy Old Men. Once they don't like you, you'll never be good enough.

to which Sunfish responded:
QF94, I'm running on my IPad I my boat so I can't quote you.

You exemplify Qantas and why so many of us will never fly you again.

You put my $7000 bad experience down to sour grapes. I had to earn that money. Qantas will not get a cent from me ever again, and there are thousands like me, thanks to sky gods like you.

You had a bad experience back in '02, and it is fair enough that you chose to fly someone else. I wouldn't be happy spending $7,000 and not being happy with my purchase. It's not sour grapes, but a choice made based on your experience at the time.

But like many on this forum, you are quick to put the boot into QANTAS whenever you get the chance and anyone who has a shred of differing opinion to yours, you want to shoot them down as well. You're most probably on your boat flipping through your ipad now checking world business news and watching with glee the eventual demise of QANTAS, or a fair part of it.

By all means, go for it. I and many of us within QANTAS are much bigger than that and can handle whatever you choose to dish out. Unlike yourself and thousands like you, there are also thousands who choose to fly QANTAS.

[Bazzamundi]

Donpizmeoff has just uttered the smartest words in the room above. Pity QF doesn't have the worlds smartest management.

To Qf94 and transition layer, read the guys posts who you are ripping into. He has been a long time vocal critic of management, not the front line worker. We are all angry at the demise of our lifetime of work, but getting angry at shadows does nobody any favours.

The above article is the tip of th iceberg. LHR for QF will soon be endagered, mark my words.

The irishman honestly believes that frequent flyers, JQ and virtual airlines is where the money is. While he leads, that is where the airline is headed full stop.

[Conductor]

Ahh, the old 'sky gods' chestnut. Instant credibility fail.

[QF94]

Bazzamundi,

I haven't been ripping into anybody, just giving stiff opposition to the boot being laid into us.

Anyway. if the EK announcement is true, FRA then LHR will go. No doubt about it. Unfortunately, I believe the damage is beyond repair, and it will be a controlled crash.

[Transition Layer]

Ahh, the old 'sky gods' chestnut. Instant credibility fail.

Indeed! Thought the same thing myself.

Bazzamundi,

Likewise, not ripping into Sunfish. I have always been very impressed with a lot of his views, beliefs and intelligent critique of QF management. I just disagree with some of his logic in this case. By all means, criticise management (as we all do-they are hopeless after all), but basing an impression of the present-day front line product on something he experienced 10 years ago is just plain silly.

[ejectx3]

What , so because qantas choose to pay s/o's more than you that makes them arrogant sky gods?

Try and help me find any shred of logic in that statement.

[Lodown]

QF94: you got two (now three) examples in support of Ushuaia's argument. I don't know about the other destinations because I haven't flown other routes in a long time, but I regularly fly across the Pacific so can only comment on that leg. Qantas lost...no, worse; actively discouraged my business over a period of time and flights and I see no reason to give it back. Sunfish seems to have had less patience, forgiveness and more sense than me. Completely happy with Borghetti's company now. Every company faces similar issues, but they are usually identified and employee behaviours are adjusted in the short term, not gone unidentified or ignored as QF has done.

The QF board, the CEO (besides considering headline grabbing expansion plans), most of the management and it seems many of the staff took their eyes off what mattered to the customer and investor and focussed on a pissing match with the unions and employees in one corner and management in the other. It's been going on for 20 years (?) now and together they've torn through much of the resources and almost all remaining customer/investor patience, loyalty and goodwill: the essentials to long term value and continuing viability. I can only surmise how the books are shaping up for this financial year ending in June 2013 because the speed with which routes have been dished up to EK and aircraft orders dumped leads me to think all the red pens in Sydney aren't going to be enough come June.

My guess is that the EK deal (giveaway???) is a desperate grab by Joyce and the board to salvage some level of respectability to the company, their positions and reputations akin to reaching for the liferaft. Look for a few "Heave-ho!"s from the ivory tower once the dust settles.

[QF94]

Sunfish:

Qantas will not get a cent from me ever again, and there are thousands like me, thanks to sky gods like you.

Thanks for the compliment, but you are very mistaken. I'm no sky god, but an earth god. I'm a humble engineer who puts the sky gods in the sky. I don't usually climb above 60' ASL in Sydney and that's to sign the RTS.

Lodown
QF94: you got two (now three) examples in support of Ushuaia's argument. I don't know about the other destinations because I haven't flown other routes in a long time, but I regularly fly across the Pacific so can only comment on that leg. Qantas lost...no, worse; actively discouraged my business over a period of time and flights and I see no reason to give it back. Sunfish seems to have had less patience, forgiveness and more sense than me. Completely happy with Borghetti's company now. Every company faces similar issues, but they are usually identified and employee behaviours are adjusted in the short term, not gone unidentified or ignored as QF has done.

I have NEVER disputed or strayed from the line that QANTAS International is shrinking and who is behind it. The initial figures I put up were to illustrate how AJ twisted them to justify QANTAS International was bleeding the "Group" and that the airline had to be split into International/Domestic businesses, each with their own CEO. This EK deal has obviously been simmering for some months, and voila, after the 23 August announcement, EK pops up as the international carrier for QANTAS west of Australia.

The internal issues within QANTAS are bigger than what's reported in the papers and tv. It's not just a union dispute. There are no ongoing "union disputes", but a constant grinding between management and staff. Staff are given more to do with less, and aging "tools of the trade" and that is across the whole spectrum of QANTAS. You can't make apple pie out of crap, but you try and deliver the best apple tasting crap you can.

It seems people have come on this topic mid-way through, saw some QANTAS bashing and decided to join in. Lodown, Sunfish and all the others who choose not to fly QANTAS, GREAT! Get over it and move on, because it is now a case of SOUR GRAPES, and your whinging and whining about something that happened YEARS AGO is as tiring as the news about QANTAS daily in the papers.

[Sunfish]

QF94, you don't get off so easily with the sour grapes jibe.

Qantas has a regular public transport AOC. It is also the subject of an Act of Parliament - the Qantas Sale Act.

That act was passed for good reason - Qantas has been permitted to offer an essential public service, with restrictions aimed at protecting what's loosely termed these days as "The public interest".

It has been judged necessary that for the sake of Australia's sovereignty and defense needs, as well as economic development, that we maintain some form of control over an internationally capable airline.

My concerns ever since I joined this website relate mainly to the shocking job Qantas has done in providing affordable DIRECT International flights to ALL state capitols because such flights have an inordinate influence on the location of overseas investment in this country.

Under your current management Qantas is a sick parody of an airline.

If I had my way, I would put Qantas in an even stricter regulatory straight jacket and require it to fly not only its published schedule, but make sure that the schedule reflected the transport needs of ALL the states so as not to economically disadvantage any of them. I would sweeten that by protecting a designated level of market share for it.

Translation: You don't get to hide behind the " national carrier" banner without providing a national service, and you don't get to suddenly talk about commercial pressures just when it suits you.

It may even be best if we pull your AOC, let you go under and then start again with a new national carrier, managed and populated by rational folk with some idea what national interest means, and without the toxic management culture Qantas contains.

[ejectx3]

Sunfish as a qf driver myself, I can assure you we all understand why you and others like you have deserted us. Through countless emails, flight crew reports and conversations with "managers" I and I am sure many other qf employees have tried to make our "leaders" aware of what needs fixing in this poor excuse for an airline.

The result? Usually nothing. But we try.

Sure some disgruntled staff have given up and that reflects badly on us all.

But overall we are as disgusted with our management as you are.

But the 'skygods' jibe is just ridiculous. We are professional pilots trying to restore some dignity to Qantas working against a one man wrecking ball.

The fact that previously agreed eba's
have meant some ranks are on a good wicket does not make them sky gods.

[QF94]

Sunfish:
Under your current management Qantas is a sick parody of an airline.

This the crux of the problem, and that I, ejectx3 and many others have been saying for a looooooooong time. You, on the other hand, make it sound like that's how the employees are. I'll repeat again, you can't make apple pie out of crap. Joyce, Dixon and their regimes have been the wrecking ball of QANTAS. NOT the employees or unions. We can only work with what we have, which isn't much these days.

If I had my way, I would put Qantas in an even stricter regulatory straight jacket and require it to fly not only its published schedule, but make sure that the schedule reflected the transport needs of ALL the states so as not to economically disadvantage any of them. I would sweeten that by protecting a designated level of market share for it.

Translation: You don't get to hide behind the " national carrier" banner without providing a national service, and you don't get to suddenly talk about commercial pressures just when it suits you.

Then Sunfish, tell that to management and get yourself a seat and run in the next election, and have the above as your platform to be elected. You'll certainly get a lot of support in the regional and outback parts of the country, but unfortunately, where the market share really counts (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth and Darwin), the general population in these ports won't give a toss about the "national carrier" as they're more interested in getting a discount ticket on another carrier with better service. I believe I could name a few people in this discussion that fit that bill.

You certainly have no right to rubbish the employees, who do their best to keep the airline going as best as they can, against management's wishes to bring it down, because we "don't offer a service as good as the competition, and are more expensive for it." We don't choose the sectors we fly, nor do we have a say in the aircraft we need or the interior fitouts or scheduling or the bonuses the management team pay themselves or that they don't pay a dividend for shareholders. Again, No apple pie from crap, just apple tasting crap.

You have made your point about how QANTAS will never see another cent from you, now you want to run the joint or have a say in it. Make your mind up.

It may even be best if we pull your AOC, let you go under and then start again with a new national carrier, managed and populated by rational folk with some idea what national interest means, and without the toxic management culture Qantas contains.

If you're empowerd to do it, then do it and put the airline out of its misery, because nothing is going to improve whilst we have these goons running the show and the government sitting idly by worrying about their own survival.

I'm glad you have stated that it is a "toxic management culture QANTAS contains." This is the true reflection of the current situation of QANTAS. NOT the staff.

[framer]

I'm glad you have stated that it is a "toxic management culture QANTAS contains." This is the true reflection of the current situation of QANTAS. NOT the staff.
True but unfortunately it has a major effect on the attitudes of the staff. The last two times I've checked- in in Sydney the attitude was disgraceful.Before I had even got to customs I had a sour taste in my mouth.At one point I stood quietly in front of the special assistance desk (after being sent there by QF staff) listening to two women carrying out personal conversations for over ten minutes. I was standing right in front of them, I did not say anything, just waited politely where the little sign said to wait and watched them expectantly, they had to try pretty hard not to make eye contact with me. It was like an advert for how not to do it¨. When they did finally decide to serve me I got the impression they were doing me a massive favour by fixing up their colleagues mistakes.
I understand that they are sick to the back teeth of all the non sensical changes and with the way they are being treated, but it still had an impact on my mood for a wee while. Many customers wouldn´t hesitate to say ¨this is the last time I´m flying Qantas¨.

[ejectx3]

I too encounter qf staff like that very often. As a captain apparently I am meant to be able to call them to task and as much as I want to I know the fallout will not be worth the effort.

Try being staff on staff travel and you'll experience the worst of qantas staff.

[gobbledock]

QF94 nailed it in one:
The internal issues within QANTAS are bigger than what's reported in the papers and tv. It's not just a union dispute. There are no ongoing "union disputes", but a constant grinding between management and staff. Staff are given more to do with less, and aging "tools of the trade" and that is across the whole spectrum of QANTAS. You can't make apple pie out of crap, but you try and deliver the best apple tasting crap you can.Although I too have stopped voluntarily using QF recently, my support goes out to the frontliners. And yes, more often than not the service standard delivered is pure crap. But I don't hold that against the frontliners. Staff are only reacting to how they are being treated. 'Every action causes a reaction'. And when on a daily basis you offer your best day in and day out only to get screwed mercilessly while a 2 cent Irish import destroys your future while loading his wallet in the process you get the reaction that is coming across from the frontliners.

Joyce and his predecessor Dixon, along with a long list of mates, managers, directors and other assorted profit rapists are to blame, they took their eyes off the ball and honed in on their own greedy desires, and the rest of the sorry saga is being played out now in front of millions of viewers.

It's time we grew some testicles in our country and pulled out the special Aussie welcome mat for the parasites killing QF. To those in charge of the QF ship and steering it into the abyss I piss in your general direction.

[Sunfish]

QF94, in the past I have had nothing but admiration for Qantas staff. I still remember that feeling of relief on boarding a QF B747 at LHR - I was "home!".

However that feeling faded by 2002 when I had a flight experience I never want to repeat.

The whining by Dixon,Jackson and the Board and their successors became deafening, and it's typical of a company that not only cannot compete, but doesn't have a single original thought in its collective management brain.

To paraphrase the old Irish joke "you can't get anywhere from where you are now", hence my observation about closing the whole thing down and starting again with a clean slate.

[QF94]

Sunfish,

I, and many like myself, still have a great deal of pride in QANTAS, the name and image it once was, but are filled with disgust at the way it is being run into the ground. If we take a look at what makes up the board and senior management, not one of them have served as a QANTAS employee before taking up those all important positions, but have been brought in from outside both related and non-related industries, and those that came from related industries have come from failed companies, a'la Ansett, and have brought that rot into QANTAS.

The whining by Dixon,Jackson and the Board and their successors became deafening, and it's typical of a company that not only cannot compete, but doesn't have a single original thought in its collective management brain.

No argument here and have NEVER thought or said otherwise.

You wrote this back on link 306:
Qantas has a regular public transport AOC. It is also the subject of an Act of Parliament - the Qantas Sale Act.

That act was passed for good reason - Qantas has been permitted to offer an essential public service, with restrictions aimed at protecting what's loosely termed these days as "The public interest".

It has been judged necessary that for the sake of Australia's sovereignty and defense needs, as well as economic development, that we maintain some form of control over an internationally capable airline.

I'm not arguing here, but asking a question of which you may have an answer to. Isn't this meant to be regulated by the government and overseen by the government or one of its bodies to ensure QANTAS is acting within the intent of the ACT? If so, then the government or its transportation body has taken their eyes off the ball while QANTAS management are downsizing the company.

It became very clear on 29 October of last year, how inept and incompetent our government was then and is now, and that no action was taken against the management for grounding ALL essential domestic and international services of QANTAS stranding up to 100,000 passengers worldwide.

I am now of the firm belief that the government didn't want to put pressure on QANTAS to shape up or shut down, as to do so would have put them in a compromised position with the public more so than they already are, but seem to be relieved that someone else is doing their work for them. (i.e. AJ and co.)

[Sunfish]

QF94, Qantas actively lobbies both sides of Parliament, State and Federal more than any other company and has very, very effective tools for doing so - namely upgrades and more importantly The Chairmans Lounge.

Make no mistake, the Chairmans Lounge in particular is an extremely potent inducement for anyone with narcissistic tendencies - which most politicians have in spades. No politician is going to do anything unwelcome to Qantas that might compromise their continued membership of that exclusive group.

I speak from experience. I have had Two Directors foisted on to the Board of the company of which I was CEO thanks to a few "chance" meetings in the Chairmans Lounge. - that place is more exclusive than the Melbourne Club and it is used by the less than scrupulous for a great deal of networking.

The perks of being a politician (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/the-perks-of-being-a-politician-20120831-255qu.html)

[QF94]

Sunfish, I'm aware of the lobbying by QANTAS management to ALL sides of parliament and it's no real secret they do so, and the link to the article you posted although interesting, but not at all surprising. The question was asked at last year's AGM by the ALAEA FedSec to Mr Joyce, whether the giving of ipads and expensive spirits and membership to QANTAS lounges amounted to bribery. AJ's response was that it wasn't bribery, and the giving of gifts is good for business, and that all businesses do it as it helps them retain or get new "clients" into the business.

By pulling the plug on QANTAS will fix nothing. It will leave a void that needs to be filled, and the next big airline in the queue will have to give the same type sweeteners to get what they want. As you stated earlier to "start with a clean slate", it won't take long before that slate is as filthy as this current one. Ministers have the hunger for being treated like royalty and couldn't go without their upgrades or being members of exclusive airline clubs and flying around the world in the name of "National Interest".

In a nutshell, the government and all its agencies are just as guilty as QANTAS management in what is being allowed to happen within the company, affecting not only the employees and their families, but also the general public.

The next time I hear someone say that QANTAS staff are the reason that QANTAS is in the mess it's in an that we're overpaid for what we do, should just take a look at the link posted by Sunfish.

We're not overpaid, it's just that others have settled for less and sold themselves out at a cheaper rate.

[skybed]

Emirates CEO is coming to town, Thursday 5th .
Expect the QF / EK code share announcement!
More losses to QF
Expect 300 QF pilot jobs to go within month!:ugh:

[armchair quarterback]

lobbying with in kind or gifts is otherwise known as corruption. Oh, its declared so its ok. It is what it is.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

The 5th is Wednesday. :hmm:

So will there be redundancies or more pilots farmed out to elsewhere?

[QF94]

Or just read about it here:

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/494354-5th-september-qf-announcement.html