Virgin Domestic

[bowly]

So I see the bearded one is to start a domestic operation between Manchester and LHR. I think they've missed the boat somewhat in the shorthaul market. Madness....

[Tableview]

It may be that you have missed the point, it's not so much about shorthaul as about feeders onto VS mainline services.

[vctenderness]

........and losing the west coast rail franchise!

[WHBM]

Three flights a day apparently.

I remember back in the 1980s when Dan-Air did three a day on this route, Manchester to Heathrow (yes, Heathrow, into T1). This was when the route had way more passengers on BA than nowadays, and before all the huge APD etc. I took it once, they had managed to get about a dozen passengers on a One-Eleven. As you can imagine, it didn't last long. It was also about this time that Virgin also did "connecting" flights from mainland Europe into Gatwick, to feed their few flights they had then, using a Viscount in their livery chartered from BAF. That didn't last long either. Does nobody at Virgin remember ?

The thing about feeder traffic is that the revenue share the feeder operation gets is very low, and you need a good base of point-to-point as well to square the revenue. Also Virgin long-haul departures do not all leave together in a hub operation that suits a few inbound connectors, but are scattered through the day.

I wonder how Virgin think they will operate at Heathrow; as I understand it T3 has no facilities for domestic arrivals, even from coaching stands, so they will need to arrive at T1 and do a terminal transfer for any connecting passengers.

[Dannyboy39]

Virgin were looking at becoming the anchor tennant of the new T2 were they not?

I suppose a transfer between T1 and T3 isn't disastrous; in the short term anyway. The transfer time in T1 really isn't that long. Probably takes a similar time to get from gates - 5, 70s, 8 than it would to transfer from a flight in T2B!

[fjencl]

BBC News - Virgin Atlantic to fly between Scotland and Heathrow (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-19329706)

[d71146]

I hear on the news that Richard Branson is resurrecting the London to Manchester route in the Spring of next year that should be interesting indeed!!!

[fjencl]

BBC News - Virgin Atlantic to fly between Scotland and Heathrow (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-19329706)

[BHD2BFS]

Any chance we will see virgin appear at BFS now that they have no code share partners to heathrow from NI and EI have left BFS?

[Willit Run]

is that going to be non-stop wisper-jet service?

[WHBM]

........and losing the west coast rail franchise!
Many will recall a constant refrain from Virgin Trains that after their recent new trains came on stream (as if nobody has ever produced new trains before) that domestic flights such as London to Manchester were now wholly redundant, nobody would ever want them any more, yadda yadda yadda.

How do we explain this one away, Ricky ?

[Skipness One Echo]

"Two engines for short haul" :)

[WHBM]

"Two engines for short haul"
Unless they sub the operation of it out to Titan on a 146 :)

[san diego]

They are certaining subbing it out to someone, they admit leased A319 and non Virgin crew but frankly, apart from possibly limiting BA's fare increases, who will buy three flights a day? The timings are clearly aimed at MAN passengers not LHR customers, the first northbound isn't until 0920 and the last southbound around 1720. Bookings are only available by phone, no on line bookings yet, so could this just be throwing the toys out of the pram after the Virgin train announcment?

[OltonPete]

How about operated by Aer Lingus with a code-share?

Etihad+ Aer Lingus + Virgin ;)

[stormin norman]

Good news for those who use staff travel ! - Nice one beardy.

[Skipness One Echo]

Unless they sub the operation of it out to Titan on a 146
Good point WHBM, I will rephrase to "Three Serviceable Engines and one AOG for Short Haul"
I can't wait to see the Upper Class suite on an A319.

[TURIN]

'Feeding' goes both ways of course. Given LHRs short comings, who knows perhaps this is blue sky, out of the box thinking. Feed your partners and longhaul flights in the regions from LHR. Singapore passengers would love that one. LHR-MAN-MUC-SIN.:eek:

[fjencl]

Virgin Atlantic has announced that it’ll launch its first Domestic UK service, with 3 daily London Heathrow – Manchester flight, on board leased Airbus A319 aircraft. Additional information regarding domestic inflight product will be revealed in the coming weeks.
Reservation for this new route is expected to open shortly. Schedule:

VS3041 LHR0920 – 1020MAN 319 D
VS3043 LHR1610 – 1710MAN 319 D
VS3045 LHR2010 – 2110MAN 319 D
VS3046 MAN0650 – 0800LHR 319 D
VS3042 MAN1220 – 1330LHR 319 D
VS3044 MAN1750 – 1900LHR 319 D

[Dannyboy39]

Is it still going to be known as Virgin Atlantic, rather than something like "Virgin UK", "Virgin Europe", "Virgin Express", "Virgin Connect" etc?

[BHD2BFS]

Who will they lease the aircraft off? Is there a uk company that wet least a319?

[davidjohnson6]

Let's see - UK airline that operates A319s, ideally with an existing operation at Manchester and capable of doing 3 round trips per day between Manchester and Heathrow for Sir Beardy..... I know - Easyjet !
:E

[Busbar]

BBC News - Virgin Atlantic to fly between Scotland and Heathrow (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-19329706)

Interesting times ahead with the announcement of MAN - LHR services starting next March and talk of Scottish routes also!

December will be interesting when they announce the result of the BA/bmi slot bids that they have applied for!

[smallpilot]

How about 'Virgin on the ridiculous...'

[funfly]

Dontya just love Beardie :rolleyes:

[jackieofalltrades]

I wish them all the best. Good to see someone give BA a run for their money.

[ANstar]

Those flight times seem to work well to feed the morning US departures as well as the evening bank of flights.

[TURIN]

Virgin Domestic. Call sign Vee Dee? Perhaps not eh? :O

[dublinaviator]

They must be pretty confident of getting those slots...

[Jack1985]

If the new short haul services are anything like Virgin America they might just pull this off, although then again Virgin America is still losing money.

[Libertine Winno]

I dont understand why Virgin dont just sell their LHR slots to someone (other than BA), and move lock stock and barrel to become an anchor tenant at LGW.

They could have far more flexibility there, lower costs plus LGW is attracting more and more long haul traffic and Im sure would snap up the idea to turn LGW into a genuine hub airport to compete with LHR. If they really want to compete with BA then that should do the trick?!

[dublinaviator]

If the new short haul services are anything like Virgin America they might just pull this off, although then again Virgin America is still losing money.

They're to turn a profit by the end of this year.

[pamann]

Well according to all the hype the flights are on sale as of today... Someone tell me where I'm going wrong as I can't find the route on the VS website?

[goldeneye]

These slots for the MAN route are not the ones IAG are being forced to give up, these are being established using existing slots that were previously leased to another airline.

VS are still looking to get all the IAG slots in addition to the ones they alreasy own.

[goldeneye]

This from the travel agents site VSFLYINGHUB

Virgin Atlantic has just announced plans to fly domestic services from London Heathrow to Manchester Airport from March 2013.This new route is the first time we’ve flown domestically within the UK, signalling the start of a new network providing us with a regional feed for our long haul services, as well as a much needed choice for passengers flying between the two cities.

While we’re going to apply for all of the remedy slots being awarded following the IAG takeover of BMI, these new flights are being established using existing slots that were previously leased to another airline.

Manchester is a key airport for us, with over 65% of people who fly to London connecting to other flights, the majority to destinations we already serve, including Boston, Cape Town and Hong Kong.

Virgin Atlantic Chief Executive Steve Ridgway said “Flying between Heathrow and Manchester is just the start for our new short haul operation. We have the means to connect thousands of passengers to our long haul network as well as to destinations served by other carriers. Our new service will provide strong competition to omnipresent BA. It will keep fares low and give consumers a genuine choice of airline to fly to Heathrow and beyond.

Timetable

We’ll be operating three daily flights to Manchester from 31 March 2013. The flights will operate from London Heathrow Terminal 1 to Manchester Airport Terminal 3, using A319 aircraft.

VS3041*31MAR13*26OCT13*LHR*0920*MAN*1020
VS3042*31MAR13*26OCT13*MAN*1220*LHR*1330
VS3043*31MAR13*26OCT13*LHR*1610*MAN*1710
VS3044*31MAR13*26OCT13*MAN*1750*LHR*1900
VS3045*31MAR13*26OCT13*LHR*2010*MAN*2110
VS3046*31MAR13*26OCT13*MAN*0650*LHR*0800

Products and service

Watch this space regarding more details about our domestic onboard service. We’re not going to reveal the details quite yet, but you can rest assured passengers on these flights will our usual innovative approach to inflight products and service.
What we can confirm is that Upper Class passengers and Flying Club Gold members connecting to one of our long haul services will enjoy access to partner lounges in London Heathrow Terminal 1 and Manchester Airport Terminal 3. Limo services will also be available to Upper Class passengers travelling on selected fares from Manchester and connecting to one of our long haul flights at Heathrow.

How to book

Until your GDS has been updated, these flights are only available to book now by calling our Reservation Centre on 0844 209 7777.
All GDS systems will be updated and you’ll be able to book tickets from 27 August onwards.

[toledoashley]

Does any one think the aircraft is coming from Virgin America? Would be quite a good tie-in, but they have first class etc... They have leased aircraft before to Skybus.

[Velocity-]

There are some rumours on the bmi regional forum about anairbus contract. I don’t know the details and maybe barking up the wrongtree. But is there any possibility theywould be getting A319s, which could be a potential operator for this VSventure?

[MCDU2]

Completely random guess here but what about he a319s being supplied and crewed by the Aer Lingus BFS base. Looking at the schedule the early MAN would probably need an overnighting crew unless the plan is to fly from City to MAN early and then to LHR. I would have thought a Belfast, LHR, MAN and back rotation would be a good 4 sector day.

[BHD2BFS]

Aer lingus is now moving to BHD and therefore now have time restraints against them at night

[Skipness One Echo]

I dont understand why Virgin dont just sell their LHR slots to someone (other than BA), and move lock stock and barrel to become an anchor tenant at LGW.
Yields collapse and LGW. Put it another way, when VS moved LGW-US round the M25 yields went up by enough % points to be more than worth the move. Profits would collapse and losses grow if they walked away from LHR. Besides they have a massive investment in their LHR base.
Manchester is a key airport for us, with over 65% of people who fly to London connecting to other flights, the majority to destinations we already serve, including Boston, Cape Town and Hong Kong.
What this does mean is that any use of B787s to do long haul from MAN looks to be dead in the water.

[octavian]

Some years ago there was a really great service from Manchester to London City by VLM using Fokker 50s. When Mr Bransons train service started in earnest VLM pulled off the route. I suspect that they couldn't compete with the half-hour frequency and the lack of security screening required by the train operators.

I wonder what has changed.

[EI-BUD]

Sorry to be negative about new initiatives or airlines spreading their wings into new markets; however, this in my view is Virgin moving its focus away from what it is about, reminds me too eerily of bmi. As far as I can see no strategy. Long haul slots are at a premium and the can't afford to make their long haul business any smaller than it is now to enable a few daily rotations on LHR MAN or any other domestic route for that matter.

Virgin America is a super airline, they seem to differentiate from the competition with something that customers warm too, but the US is a continent in effect and much more scope for domestic flying given the distances e.g. JFK SFX or LAX.

I am not convinced that this is a good move, Virgin are in a state of flux, where it is restricted in a limited market. In my view they would be better off diversifying into markets underserved from LHR, destination where BA dont go but would like to, yes there are often restrictions but going into a short haul operation where the return will be limited doesnt strike me as a smart strategy, not to mention the cost and operational challenges (small fleet of a different aircraft, small crew for the type, cost of marketing a small domestic operation?).

EI-BUD

[Omnipresent]

I can see the rationale in one sense in that Virgin has the brand and distribution strength in the UK to generate feeder traffic from the UK regions which they need to support long haul and by wet leasing they are not committing much in terms of capital risk.

However the revenue they will gain will be marginal whilst adding cost and complexity to their operation.

Seeking the IAG slot pairs for Moscow is entirely rational as the route wil yield good quality O&D traffic and feeder traffic. I would think Virgin would be better going for new medium/long haul routes that can provide both direct and connecting traffic for their existing network.

[EI-BUD]

Omnipresent, you make valid points.

My feeling is that with bmi the airline had no clear strategy and the result was that the travelling public were not sure was it domestic were was it specialising etc. The management were not entirely sure as in the uncertain times they operated in, the didnt manage to carve a niche out.

So to avoid a situation like that, I feel that Virgin needs to ensure that is is the airline of choice for point to point ex London, LHR and LGW. If their challenge the measured impact of losing domestic traffic, the solution may be in reducing some of the long haul routes to make way for other long haul routes and tap into bigger markets, hence not be reliant on feed to domestic routes that are marginal and make the operation complex as Omnipresent puts it.

EI-BUD

[davidjohnson6]

How much will Virgin lose on routes to Manchester, Aberdeen and Edinburgh over a 3 year period, with the proviso that if things get *really* bad, Virgin can just close the routes, re-lease out the Manchester slots to another carrier and hand the Aberdeen and Edinburgh slots back to the competition trustee ?

Assuming the losses on the routes are not too bad, how much are 7 free slot pairs at Heathrow worth, considering that after 3 years they can be used for any route including long haul rather than just domestic ?

Finally, how much of Virgin's revenue derived through bmi domestic feed ? Having customers fly to/from LHR with your main competitor is not a good idea long term.

If as seems, Virgin is wet leasing in A319s for domestic there is little capital expenditure then we just have an exercise of comparing 2 strategies with a cheap option to switch if things don't turn out.

Assuming Virgin get the free slots for next summer they would be stupid not to give this a try. Thd more free slots they get the more they will persist with domestic feed over the next three years until it turns profitable.

[Fairdealfrank]

Think it was likely that VS would go after the divested BA slots, otherwise they'd get nothing from the sad demise of BD. Apart from BD regional (who have had previous LHR dealings) and EI, the likes of BE, U2, etc., appear to be completely uninterested, so VS could have a clear run.

If VS are going to do ABZ and EDI, they might as well plan for a reasonable domestic network. If MAN does well, would expect (1) another west coast main line (WCML) destination, GLA, to be added, and (2) increased frequencies (subject to slot availaibility).

The loss of the WCML franchise probably just brought the announcement time forward, this must have been planned for a while.


Quote: "Virgin Domestic. Call sign Vee Dee? Perhaps not eh?"

Oh very good! No it will be the same: "Virgin Atlantic" VS, just like BA is, and BD was, the same on international and domestic.


Quote: "I wonder how Virgin think they will operate at Heathrow; as I understand it T3 has no facilities for domestic arrivals, even from coaching stands, so they will need to arrive at T1 and do a terminal transfer for any connecting passengers."

Expect this is tied in with VS's move to LHR2, now that BD will not be there. Having a domestic operation makes their case to move there stronger. They will be able to feed the Star Alliance longhaul as well as their own, and it is possible that there is a plan for VS to join the Star Alliance later on (?).


Quote: "I dont understand why Virgin dont just sell their LHR slots to someone (other than BA), and move lock stock and barrel to become an anchor tenant at LGW.

They could have far more flexibility there, lower costs plus LGW is attracting more and more long haul traffic and Im sure would snap up the idea to turn LGW into a genuine hub airport to compete with LHR. If they really want to compete with BA then that should do the trick?! "

Will never happen! They will never leave the world's largest international hub and third largest overall, it would be suicide! VS saved their bacon by shifting to LHR in the 1980s, had they not done so, they would probably have gone the same way as BUA, BCal and Laker: belly up. There isn't sufficient connectivity at LGW, it is not a hub airport. BTW there is already an "anchor tenant" at LGW, it is U2.


Quote: "Yields collapse and LGW. Put it another way, when VS moved LGW-US round the M25 yields went up by enough % points to be more than worth the move. Profits would collapse and losses grow if they walked away from LHR. Besides they have a massive investment in their LHR base."

Exactly.

[compton3bravo]

What profits Frank? The airline lost 80 million last year. Only going to operate the domestic routes until they can use them for long haul citing continuous losses and then transferring the remaining Gatwick services at the same time so by saving even more costs. Just my two pennyworth.

[BALLSOUT]

Didn't Virgin already do this route nine or ten years ago?
I am sure Flightline used to run the service on behalf of Virgin for quite a while on a 146, as a means of keeping slots at LHR.

[TSR2]

As I recall, the Flightline Bae146 operated as a feeder to LHR for Qantas when they pulled the MAN-SYD service following the start of code sharing with BA.

[chaps2011]

TSR2 Correct sir.

Ian

[Mlinnie]

Well I wish Virgin all the best :ok:

But could we see BFS being served ? As it has no LHR connection at the moment and that's a very important route up for grabs.
And what about City of Derry ? It has no LHR connection all it has is a
Stansted route with FR ?

[davidjohnson6]

With Heathrow slots so constrained and Belfast City already (or soon to be) served by BA + Aer Lingus, I can think of other places in the UK more likely to get a route to Heathrow than Derry...

[WHBM]

I've tried to put together various 2 + 2 together here.

Part of the deal for BA taking over BMI is that a number of slots will be given to another carrier to provide a competitive service on routes to Edinburgh and Aberdeen. However, among the conditions is that the slots will not be given to a carrier who already has slots of their own leased out and therefore they are under-using what they already have.

Virgin has had slots leased out to other carriers and would therefore be ineligible to apply. However the lease came up for expiry and Virgin are taking them back. That means they are now OK to apply for the Scottish slots. What they need is a slot-sitter for a while. Manchester is about the shortest route that looks remotely sensible so go for that - for now.

Having done this, they are now eligible to apply for the Scottish route slot transfer. Apply for and get those - doesn't really seem to be any other meaningful interest. These slots are only protected to the Edinburgh/Aberdeen routes for three years, after that you can do what you like with them.

So, Virgin will have somewhat infrequent (compared to BA) services to Manchester, Edinburgh and Aberdeen, ticking over and losing, well, not a lot we hope. In three years time they can dump all these domestic routes and do what they like with them. They can start their own services, doing what their business does properly, namely long-haul, or they can lease them out again once the time lock expires.

Look out for the press release around the end of 2015 saying they are "reluctantly" withdrawing from domestic routes due to [choose one of] high APD / their own environmental concerns about domestic flights / desire to mount direct services from Manchester etc with the 787. Goodness, the draft of this press release is probably already written and sat in Ricky's safe for a few years.

[Hartington]

I think there's another element driving VS. As long as they have to put their passengers on BA domestics there is a commercial issue. BA will lift the ticket coupon at Manchester and that will give them visibility of the fare ladder routing etc. With their own flights they can keep that data in house. It also extends their reach for Upper Class because they will be able to offer limo service to a large tranche of the NW plus most of the populated bits of Scotland (even Glasgow).

[fjencl]

Any news yet on who the wet lessor for the a319 aircraft and crew will be for this MAN - LHR Operation ?????

[FR-]

easyJet :E

fr-

[dublinaviator]

Aer Lingus are acquiring additional A319s early next year. Coincidence? I think not...

[compton3bravo]

Sorry Frank where do you get the idea of more long haul flights from LGW. Me thinks it is the other way - less. The airlines operating long haul flights only use LGW because they cannot get slots at LHR. When they become available they move across. LGW in my opinion will NEVER be able to compete with LHR, Paris, Amsterdam etc on long haul destinations it will remain a short/medium operation - nothing wrong with that - with a few long haul leisure destinations and don´t let GIP brainwash in telling you otherwise.

[islandhopper]

Monarch Airlines

[EI-BUD]

Aer Lingus are acquiring additional A319s early next year. Coincidence? I
think not...


AerLingus had these ordered some time ago, and highly unlikely to be a cross over there as there wasnt any certainty about what would happen with Bmi for sure when they were mentioned first.

Of the 2 coming, I would put money on it that BHD gets one. Separately, AerLingus have expressed an interested in aquiring LHR EDI slots in their own rite.

We shall have to wait and see, I cant see Aer Lingus getting that close to Virgin. However, that said, I cant actually see what other airlines that would be an immediate match who have 319s and would fly for Virgin. They may just operate themselves rather than going to somebody like say Aer Lingus.

EI-BUD

[Count von Altibar]

I think it might be ze Germanwings operating for VS.

[BHD2BFS]

Possibly a virgin America aircraft with virgin Atlantic crew?

[islandhopper]

It's Monarch with A320/319....:ugh:

[BHD2BFS]

And you know this how islandhopper?

[blablabla]

Its Jet2 with a clapped out rotten B737 classic.....this is a rumour network after all.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "What profits Frank? The airline lost 80 million last year. Only going to operate the domestic routes until they can use them for long haul citing continuous losses and then transferring the remaining Gatwick services at the same time so by saving even more costs. Just my two pennyworth."

Was quoting, compton3bravo, as I understood it, they meant that any profits in general terms that may accrue at LHR would be losses at LGW. So if they're losing at LHR, they'd lose shed-loads more at LGW. Was agreeing with the point.


Quote: "Sorry Frank where do you get the idea of more long haul flights from LGW. Me thinks it is the other way - less."

Never said there would be more longhaul from LGW, it's definitely the other way!

Indeed if LHR is ever expanded, would expect both VS and BA to abandon LGW completely.

Actually wrote the following about the idea of VS leaving LHR completely and moving to LGW:
-------------
Will never happen! They will never leave the world's largest international hub and third largest overall, it would be suicide! VS saved their bacon by shifting to LHR in the 1980s, had they not done so, they would probably have gone the same way as BUA, BCal and Laker: belly up. There isn't sufficient connectivity at LGW, it is not a hub airport. BTW there is already an "anchor tenant" at LGW, it is U2.
-------------

so think we agree about longhaul at LGW.

Quote: "The airlines operating long haul flights only use LGW because they cannot get slots at LHR. When they become available they move across. LGW in my opinion will NEVER be able to compete with LHR, Paris, Amsterdam etc on long haul destinations it will remain a short/medium operation - nothing wrong with that - with a few long haul leisure destinations and don´t let GIP brainwash in telling you otherwise."

Exactly, LGW is a waiting room for longhaul. In fact if LHR is expanded, LGW may not need to be, as much of its traffic (particularly longhaul) will shift to LHR. Does not work the same in reverse.

[EuroWings]

It's Monarch with A320/319....

It was showing as an A319 on the timetable, which Monarch doesn't have (at least not at the moment). :confused:

VS3041 LHR0920 – 1020MAN 319 D
VS3043 LHR1610 – 1710MAN 319 D
VS3045 LHR2010 – 2110MAN 319 D
VS3046 MAN0650 – 0800LHR 319 D
VS3042 MAN1220 – 1330LHR 319 D
VS3044 MAN1750 – 1900LHR 319 D

Its Jet2 with a clapped out rotten B737 classic.....this is a rumour network after all.

Jet2's 737s have fully refurbished interiors, they're very snazzy and red (http://www.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/Jet2/Jet2-EC-web.jpg)(if not particularly comfortable). The cabins are in better shape than some of BA's A319s. Would suit Virgin, but the service is listed as an A319 (see above).

[easyflyer83]

I heard elsewhere that SK are operating it. Just a rumour though and to be honest darts are being thrown in all directions hitting targets from easyjet to Aer Lingus.

[chaps2011]

2 Ex IB machines that are on their way to EI this winter that will be based at
MAN but with crews based at LHR

Ian

[redED]

2 Ex IB machines that are on their way to EI this winter that will be based at
MAN but with crews based at LHR

Ian
*


Are they not going to BHD?

[Aksai Oiler]

So I was not wrong, they re moving from Willie

[VeroFlyer]

Flybe Embraer 195's might work. No guarantee it will be Airbus!

[irishlad06]

why would two be based their when virgin only require 1 for their schedule with alot of ground time anyway in the schedule.

[redED]

Flybe Embraer 195's might work. No guarantee it will be Airbus!

Apart from they've said it'll be airbus. 26ish more seats to make it pay too.

[MKY661]

It's Monarch with A320/319....:ugh:

Highly doubt it unless the A320 which is due to leave Monarch goes to Virgin but ive heard thats getting parted out.

[dublinaviator]

Are they not going to BHD?

They already have 2 A319s based in BFS, which will be based in BHD from October.

The 2 A319s due this winter were due to go to DUB AFAIK.

[figgi_gsm]

A319 for MAN and A320 fro EDI/ABZ

[JobsaGoodun]

Flybe Embraer 195's might work.

This would be interesting to see and ties in well with the comments coming from Flybe that they'd like to explore contract flying opportunities with other carriers.

With crew bases at all the likely places that Virgin would want to be flying to LHR from, this could also be a lower cost option removing hotel costs for crew which might offset the reduced seating capacity.

With aircraft on order from Embraer, maybe Flybe would be able to free up some E195's to assist Virgin? It's an interesting prospect but would the partial BA ownership and codeshares be put at risk by such a move?

[Dannyboy39]

Don't understand why anything smaller than an E195 should command a landing slot at LHR, considering the severe shortage of such. Including, making it pay for the airline.

[Torquelink]

I think there's another element driving VS. As long as they have to put their passengers on BA domestics there is a commercial issue. BA will lift the ticket coupon at Manchester and that will give them visibility of the fare ladder routing etc. With their own flights they can keep that data in house. It also extends their reach for Upper Class because they will be able to offer limo service to a large tranche of the NW plus most of the populated bits of Scotland (even Glasgow).

I suspect that Hartington has it right plus the fact that any airline totally reliant on their major competitior for feed is accepting it is no longer in complete control of its destiny. Insofar as who will operate the service, there are a number of EU Ops 1 carriers with much lower crew costs than UK carriers which could provide the service at not a huge cost to VA.

[WHBM]

Don't understand why anything smaller than an E195 should command a landing slot at LHR, considering the severe shortage of such.
Indeed, but it's a way round the slot rules which don't stipulate a minimum slot size. Virgin themselves have used a King Air hired from an air-taxi operator in the past to come in and out as a Heathrow slot-sitter.

[JonEMA]

Virgin don't rely on anyone for feed.......pax numbers interlining over LHR are very small.....(largest is DEL - EWR)....

[Torquelink]

Sorry, meant domestic . .

[Qconn]

WHBM, I agree with your assessment. However there’s one major problem. Under the Commission’s decision there are restrictions on Grandfathering rights;


1.1.3. Grandfathering rights

As a general rule, the slots obtained by a prospective entrant must be operated on the city pair(s) for which they have been requested from IAG and cannot be used on another city pair unless the prospective entrant has operated them during at least six full consecutive IATA seasons ("the Utilisation Period"). The prospective entrant would be deemed to have grandfathering rights for the slots once appropriate use of the slots has been made on the city pairs at issue, for the Utilisation Period. Once the
Utilisation Period has elapsed, the prospective entrant would be entitled to use the slots obtained on the basis of the Commitments exclusively to operate services on any route connecting London with any other part of Europe (including Aberdeen and Edinburgh), or on London-Moscow, London-Cairo and London-Riyadh. (my emphasis added)


So they can only be used to serve Europe (or the 3 nominated longhaul destinations). I can’t see how they will get around this. The slots were given up to recreate competition on certain routes. I think VS are going to get caught by their own very public arguments!!

[WHBM]

An interesting point, Qconn - thank you for registering to make it. I wonder if Virgin could, however, lease them out to, and make money from, any other operator to do European flights; that appears to be an interpretation of what is said here. Am I correct that the slots they previously had leased out until this year were being used by Lufthansa ? And I wonder if that European operator could then lease out, quite independently, their quite separate existing slots to, say Virgin ?

any other part of Europe ..... or .... Moscow .....
Hmmm, a geography lesson for the Commission, I think.

[coopervane]

Viscount worked well for Virgin as a feeder years ago!! Maybe dig one or two out of a museum and give it a go!

Coops:ok:

[dontdoit]

Using an A319 from BH Air Bulgaria ("Balkan Holidays" callsign) according to dispatcher at MAN this morning. (They've got previous history having operated ex-Lagos for Virgin Nigeria when that started apparently).

[dc9-32]

A318 would suit this route. Plenty heading to the UK soon :uhoh:

[cornishsimon]

A318 would suit this route. Plenty heading to the UK soon



is there ?


cs

[Dannyboy39]

is there ?
cs
I believe you've just been whoosed. There are a grand total of -1 net orders worldwide currently.

[dc9-32]

well I ferried one to the UK not so long back with more to follow....

[toledoashley]

Wouldn't Balkan want the aircraft for the summer though? I think I would still put my money on either Aer Lingus or Virgin America.

[EI-BUD]

So rare to hear A318's mentioned. I flew into Paris yesterday and saw many examples AirFrance and one from Tarom.

I would suggest if they see A318 as suitable over A319, shows already how low volume/ marginal they would expect this route to be.

[adfly]

An E195 would be much more economical than a heavy A318 over that sort of distance! Not really any difference in seats either.

[Artie Fufkin]

according to dispatcher at MAN this morning

:}

Well that's cleared that up then... hold on the caterers haven't spoken yet:=

[JSCL]

Have heard today that discussions have been had with OA re operating the route(s) from the start.

[Maverick8701]

I heard the rumour in the crewroom a 175 had been put on NQY LGW a few months ago especially for the virgin guys (usually a Q400 route) anyone able to confirm this happened for sure?

[Deano777]

Mav

I don't think that's true to be honest.

[SR71]

Virgin big wigs recently seen on a Flybe ejet in Newquay. It really would make the most sense but things rarely work out that way

Probably on the way to the St Moritz....

[onyxcrowle]

Could virgin run from dsa ? Perhaps Aberdeen or edi ?

[jabird]

Could virgin run from dsa ? Perhaps Aberdeen or edi ?

Why? DSA is well below expectations even as a low cost airport. If it was going to support any feeder into a hub, it would surely be KLM to AMS. Given the short life of the KL LPL route, I don't think they'd be looking at DSA any time soon, and nor would Virgin.

Too far from Sheffield, Doncaster is too small and both are close enough to London for the ptp traffic. Even LBA is only returning now BA can feed their wider network, compared to BMI & Star who left the route.

[cornishsimon]

A E175 did operate into NQY in place of the Q400 at some stage recently

Why would virgin management be coming to NQY ?


cs

[Fairdealfrank]

Would imagine MME would be way ahead of DSA if VS were thinking about Yorkshire. Or alternatively taking on BA at LBA.

Suspect both are highly unlikely.

[Set 1013]

The Virgin big wigs WERE on that flight fron LGW - NQY. about 6 months ago. The flight was changed from a Q400 to a E175 for them.

Read into what you will!

[adfly]

NQY -Long Runway and lots of empty space therefore a possible maintenance base for VS? Or they are creating a new hub there as it knocks about 40 min of transatlantic flights vs LHR! ;)

[ETOPS]

NQY -Long Runway and lots of empty space therefore a possible maintenance base for VS?

Close - you need to aim higher though - think outside the box - think outside the planet :ok:

[pug]

ETOPS, given its location and runway it certainly may be a good base for the venture you are alluding to should they be loooking at a base in the UK.

[cornishsimon]

Well two long running rumors about virgin and NQY
Space port and mx base


cs

[Deano777]

Talking to the dispatchers at NQY and there was a VS 747 in there doing "size" tests not long ago?

Not quite sure why the VS bods would fly LGW - NQY on board an E175 just to test out the ship when they could have picked any number of E175 routes out of LGW. Me thinks it was probably a tech Dash day and they threw on a 175 and the VS bods just happened to be on that flight.

[cornishsimon]

There was a brand new virgin airbus that came in for an afternoon for some aerial photo shots being taken by chopper by castle air

Don't think a virgin 744 has visited NQY.

Currently all virgin mx is outsourced ? To LH ?


cs

[vs69]

No VS maint is not ALL outsourced. Heavy maint (C & D checks) done by lufty,line maint mainly in house,A checks and casualty work and other bits done in house plus the 3rd party customers we have. The rumour of a vs shed in the uk not at lhr or lgw is total cr@p... more chance of a bulk order of viscounts for domestic flights...

[Aero Mad]

Oh yeah.

http://i.pbase.com/o4/05/686005/1/64921015.1lAegCO2.VIRGINVISCOUNTLGWRF.jpg

[jabird]

Space port and mx base

Do you think that when people are shelling out £100,000 for a space adventure, the airport would waive the £5 terminal fee?

[SR71]

The Virgin CEO owns the St Moritz at Trebetherick...just down the road from NQY...maybe the Management Team was brain-storming in some more relaxed environs....

Cornwall Hotels St Moritz Hotel Cowshed Spa luxury Breaks Rock Cornwall UK (http://www.stmoritzhotel.co.uk/the-hotel)

[Cyber Bob]

NQY is definately not on Virgin's radar

[HDP]

Anyone know which flight will count as the inaugural? I know the MAN-LHR at 6.50am is the first ever flight, but the 9.20am departure from LHR-MAN would be a more sensible time for all the PR stuff, with journalists, photographers and perhaps Richard Branson himself? LHR is also their home base so they could host a PR event there. Also, all press releases have stressed flights FROM Heathrow instead of flights TO Heathrow. Just wondering...

[davidjohnson6]

London based journalists having to go to Manchester for a press launch ? Perish the thought !
Doesn't everyone know that beyond the confines of the M25, there be strange creatures about, and beyond Watford Gap there be dragons ?

[cornishsimon]

Just to confirm that the Virgin aircraft that visited NQY was an A333 G-VRAY
G-VRAY | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nqypics/7177916864/in/set-72157627617035856)
and was in on 11th May 2012


cs

[Chidken Sangwich]

LHR - EDI & LHR - ABZ just announced: Virgin Atlantic unveils second wave of domestic flights (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/virgin-atlantic-unveils-second-wave-of-domestic-flights-376472/)

[davidjohnson6]

Reading the article carefully, it seems that VS operating to Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Moscow is contingent upon being granted the bmi remedy slots, but there is no confirmation as yet that Virgin will receive the slots.

Looks like just PR noise, but as a remote possibility, has Competition RX given Virgin a strong indication that they will receive the slots ? Slot allocation public announcement day is still quite a long way away...

[Dannyboy39]

Is there actually any business sense to these moves, or is it just out of spite and desperation?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

VS have bid for the LHR-Moscow-LHR schedule from BMI as well as Easyjet :\

[fjencl]

Has any info come to light yet about what airline will be operating this service on behalf of Virgin using the a319 airbus, or will it be virgin leasing in a a319 and training its own staff to operate this service 3 times a day.

Its the MAN - LHR route i am talking about.

[Buster the Bear]

Balkan Holidays

[Omnipresent]

PR noise to deflect scrutiny from the departure of the CEO when no successor has been identified?

[jabird]

PR noise to deflect scrutiny from the departure of the CEO when no successor has been identified?

Quite a few P45s being issued in another Virgin transport business. :ugh:

[160to4DME]

Jethro, you should know better...

AIRBUS S.A.S = AIRBUS Société par Actions Simplifiée.

The airline SAS has no connection to the title above.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "VS have bid for the LHR-Moscow-LHR schedule from BMI as well as Easyjet"

U2 at LHR? Seriously?

[Skipness One Echo]

U2 at LHR? Seriously?
I believe easyJet are looking at a LGW operation for Moscow, they have no LHR plans.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "I believe easyJet are looking at a LGW operation for Moscow, they have no LHR plans."

Does this mean that just VS are after the BD LHR Moscow slots that BA have to divest?

[airhumberside]

VS want the slots and the traffic rights - two separate 'contests' and theoretically VS could win one but not the other

[davidjohnson6]

If we assume the niceties of theoretical separation of the 2 contests are respected, what political fudges are available to let Easyjet win the traffic rights, Virgin to win the Heathrow slots, and also avoid the CAA / OFT being completely lambasted in the press should such a sequence of events happen ?

Without a credible option existing for the CAA / OFT, if they don't get everything they want, Easyjet could theoretically cause trouble through the courts about the impossibility of their winning rights to Gatwick-Moscow traffic, or Sir Beardy could claim in front of the TV cameras that the process for divesting the bmi slots was flawed and seek a judicial review.

[globetrotter79]

As far as I'm aware, there are 14 ex-BMI frequencies on London-Moscow to divvied up. Making an educated guess, it wouldn't take too much to work out that the CAA are quite likely to give 7 weekly frequencies each to Virgin and easyJet (actually not a bad result for BA as this would mean only having to give up 7 instead of 14 weekly LHR slot pairs).

[EI-BUD]

Aer Lingus are getting 2 additional 319s from Iberia, it would seem that one will be stationed at LGW as it operates to NOC daily. Aside from that I had expected that BHD would get the other one as the bases 3rd based aircraft for summer, but it seems that this will be 320. What are the chances that EI will operate for VS on MAN LHR and a wider deal be struck for interlining pax at LHR for onward travel to non US destinations?

EI-BUD

[GAZMO]

I did speak to a member of EI and it was stated that there may be a EI and VS code share on LHR and I assume LGW from BHD

Would make more sense if EZY would do this to LGW for VS as they have many more destinations than EI
I know they are LCC but they are drifting more and more into the main stream

[Jack1985]

I know they are LCC but they are drifting more and more into the main stream

It's no longer an LCC and hasn't been for quite a while now, its a hybrid carrier this was detailed at length at their recent AGM.

[airhumberside]

As far as I'm aware, there are 14 ex-BMI frequencies on London-Moscow to divvied up. Making an educated guess, it wouldn't take too much to work out that the CAA are quite likely to give 7 weekly frequencies each to Virgin and easyJet (actually not a bad result for BA as this would mean only having to give up 7 instead of 14 weekly LHR slot pairs).
That scenario won't happen. I'm pretty sure - though can't find a recent document to confirm - that the UK-Russia bilateral restricts the number of UK airlines allowed to links the countries to two. Since one is BA, then it would seem both EZY and VS couldn't win 7 weekly flights each. So it will almost certainly be EZY or VS (the BA bid for LGW-SVO stands no chance)

However regardless of any restrictions on the number of airlines, the amount of traffic rights VS wins does not impact on the number of slots to be divested at LHR. There are 12 slots up for sale and theoretically they could all be used to Aberdeen. They aren't tied exclusively to Moscow. There are just 5 for which Moscow is an 'eligible destination' along with ABZ, EDI, Cairo and Riyadh (and Nice?). Chances are if one or two don't get used for Moscow, they will simply get used to another eligible destination

The slots and traffic rights are totally different processes. The slot divestiture is being overseen by the EU. The traffic rights by the CAA. They could produce incompatable outcomes. VS could win the slots but not have the traffic rights. They could win the traffic rights but not win the slots and therefore need to source slots from elsewhere

[Mr A Tis]

... a side issue is what happens to the MAN-MOSCOW rights?
When Cathay wanted to re-introduce HKG-MAN via Moscow it was objected to & refused, because BMI held the rights for MAN-MOSCOW.
If EZY were to get LON-Moscow, would that also allow them to operate Moscow from MAN too? If VS won the rights they would be unlikely to include MAN into the mix.
Just asking.

[Cyrano]

... a side issue is what happens to the MAN-MOSCOW rights?
When Cathay wanted to re-introduce HKG-MAN via Moscow it was objected to & refused, because BMI held the rights for MAN-MOSCOW.
If EZY were to get LON-Moscow, would that also allow them to operate Moscow from MAN too? If VS won the rights they would be unlikely to include MAN into the mix.
Just asking.

If i recall correctly, as of a few years ago, the bilateral was restrictive only for London-Russia, i.e. it was not explicitly restricted e.g. for UK carriers wanting to operate flights from MAN/BHX. I'd guess that the issue Cathay might have faced was perhaps related more to fifth-freedom rights.

[ltn and beyond]

Sources have rumored that, In the interest of new working relations in LHR, BA will operating a code share agreement with VS on the LHR MAN route using one of the newly acquired ex BMI airbuses.

The project is designed to keep LHR slots within the current LHR operators preventing any more operators "getting a foot in LHR". :ok::ok:

[TURIN]

Sources have rumored that, In the interest of new working relations in LHR, BA will operating a code share agreement with VS on the LHR MAN route using one of the newly acquired ex BMI airbuses.

I find that hard to believe. Do you have a source for that?:suspect:

[WHBM]

That scenario won't happen. I'm pretty sure - though can't find a recent document to confirm - that the UK-Russia bilateral restricts the number of UK airlines allowed to links the countries to two.
However there are already three Russian carriers operating to the UK, Aeroflot, Transaero and Rossiya. As these things are always kept very balanced with Russian bilaterals, if there are three from Russia there are likely to be three available from the UK.

[airhumberside]

Sorry - I meant London-Moscow is probably restricted to 2 airlines from each country not the wider UK-Russia market. Sadly the UK-Russia agreement isn't one of those posted on the foreign office website so I can't confirm that
Aviation (http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/publications-and-documents/treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers-by-subject/aviation)

[davidjohnson6]

Seems that the Govt admit to having done a :mad: up with the numbers on the West Coast rail franchise and Sir Beardy gets to resubmit a bid.

Assuming Sir Beardy submits and wins the train line bid, does this impact the likelihood of VS persisting beyond a year with a loss-making LHR-MAN air route as opposed to switching the slots to a long-haul route or Moscow (if VS win the MOW aspect of bmi's carcass) ?

My guess is that there's relatively little overlap between Heathrow and Euston passengers, so minimal impact, but would be interested to hear the thoughts of others...

[rowly6339]

Was just thinking the same thing.

[Skipness One Echo]

Embarrasing IMHO
Weren't they cool once? Could someone have a word?

Photo by richardbranson • Instagram (http://instagram.com/p/X1wVG0JDn6/#)

From a marketing standpoint my first thought was he was selling Viagra. Really.
Virgin is supposed to be young, trendy, innovative, cutting edge and SEXY.
Also, we don't all wear kilts either. Hoots mon, back to work.

[crewmeal]

Disgusting! I wonder what Paris Brown would tweeet if she was p****d