How does the front line feel about armed FD crew / locked doors?

[LowNSlow]

After reading the thread regarding arming FD crew with interest I was wondering how you chaps and chapesses feel about it? Personally, I disagree with it but I'd like to know what the front line feels about it.

One of the measures I, as SLF, feel more comfortable with is having one or more "skymarshals"on every flight. It seems to work very well for EL AL. Again, how would you all feel having an armed "passenger" on board?

[skypryncess]

Flight deck maybe, Air Marshals with guns - no way.

[capt cynical]

Real Guns you must be JOKING:eek: Water Pistols maybe only if they promise not to wet themselves.
Ive seen these guy's use a knife and fork.!!:D

[LowNSlow]

cc are you talking about the FD crew or the marshals or both? :D

[flapsforty]

Locked cockpit doors and armed pilots?
I think not.
The locked door is a pacifier. It is used by the companies to persuade the travelling public that flying has now all of a sudden become "safe". What a sad joke.

Armed pilots; words fail me.
No, I do not think it is a good idea.

Flying is fairly safe.
To make it more safe, real safety improving measures will have to be taken on the ground.
And I am not referring to the nail-clipper-hunting brigade here. Profiling your pax is the only way to go.

That is if you want to improve safety?
Do we need to?
Or is flying still a very safe part of that inherently risky business called life?

Are we willing to pay the price for real safety?
Do we want to live with a vast reduction in air travel?
Because that is what happens if we want real security.
The price will become prohibitive.

I do not see the need for it.
Yes sept 11th was terrible; I visited Ground Zero 2 days ago and was suitably saddened.
I also think that statistically it was not all that significant.

More people die every year on the roads.
Of smoking.
Heart disease & obesity are major killers.
Do we make as much fuss about them as we do about air travel related security?
Nope.

Everyday reality at the moment.
Rabid security guards.
Endless checks.
Useless, wasteful, stupid and supremely irritating to aircrew.
I am amazed that we who work in this industry, supposedly fairly intelligent people, accept all this BS lying down.
Sure we gripe, but do we protest effectively through our representatives about the useless idiocy that poisons our daily lives while adding ZIP to the safety of ourselves or our pax?

L&S, I am not in favour, but I guess that came through? ;)

[LowNSlow]

Came through loud and clear Flaps :D

There does seem to be a vocal group of pilots (predominantly US I think) on Reporting Points who see being armed as the only way to go......... As I said before, I'm not in favour of it.

PS. Has anybody seen this

It would be even funnier if it didn't bear such a resemblance to reality :eek:

[Hand Solo]

Guns? I can't fly with one foot, which is what I'd have left if I'd had to sit with a gun all day! Most of the demands for arming flight crew come from American pilots gripped by some sort of Rambo/Terrorist revenge fantasy. The idea that whilst tremendously bored and unstimulated late at night you suddenly can draw your gun and bring it to bear effectively on a team of suicidal hijackers who have taken you by surprise is ridiculous machismo. As for the 'armoured' door, well thats just a fop to the travelling public. Every aircraft hijacked on Sept 11th had a locked flight deck door, and none of those flight decks were accessed by breaking through the door. We are in exactly the same situation as pre-Sept 11th, but with thicker and more dangerous doors. From a personal perspective I resent spending my working day locked behind a metal door with no human contact other than the voices on the radio and interphone and the guy sat beside me. It's done very little to improve safety but done a great deal to destroy my enjoyment and motivation to go to work.

[LowNSlow]

Hi Hand, yup, the Rambos are ranting. They are outvoted in the poll by a large margin which I find reassuring.

They do seem to ignore the fact that any potential highjackers will have to come through the cabin crew before politely tapping on the fortress, sorry flight deck door.

Has anybody suggested unarmed compat training for cabin crew? Would anybody want it?

[flapsforty]

It's done very little to improve safety but done a great deal to destroy my enjoyment and motivation to go to work. Hand Solo, That's exactly how I feel about the locked cockpit door!

L&S, I have asked our mob about some simple training along those lines. Not to foil any hijackers because I don't think we'd have a hope, but to be able to defend ourselves against "unruly" pax.
Management tells me they are considering it.
They have been doing so for the last year and a half.

We used to have a supposedly good ani-agression training, which about 70% of our FA's have attended.
Stopped in the after 9/11 scramble to cut costs. :rolleyes:

[Jet II]

LowNSlow

There does seem to be a vocal group of pilots (predominantly US I think) on Reporting Points who see being armed as the only way to go......... As I said before, I'm not in favour of it.

I have a lot of friends and family in the US, but I have to say that most people (not just pilots) in the US seem to think that being armed is the answer to everything.

Whilst I am not against carrying weapons per-se, I would need to see an awful lot of training of these pilots before I felt safe.

I have no objections to sky-marshalls as they are trained for that task and only that task. But as Flapsforty has said the only way to improve the safety in the long run is better profiling and back-ground checks.:D

[Cart_tart]

Hard to say really.....
What will one sky marshall with a gun do when there are 5 terrorists on board?
How do we know that the sky marshall with a gun hasn't gone psycho themselves or doesn't have the weapon used against him?
Are the bullets fuselage safe?
In some respects I'm all for it in most others I think it is a dumb idea.
Re-inforced flight deck doors are a deterrant. Its like your house. If they're going to get in they will.
I personally don't think banning 2 year olds from the fd is going to make much difference.

[Human Factor]

If I wanted to carry a gun, I would have joined the Air Force.

[Evacu8]

I agree with Flapsforty....the locked flight deck door has achieved nothing besides from making communication more difficult, and leaving the techies a bit more lonely!!

It's a CRM nightmare, where we used to pop up every now and again and say G'day, it's harder now, so a lot of crew dont bother. Plus with the locked door, it's harder to know when you are disturbing the techies - before ,say on a night sector, you could pop youre head in, if they were having controlled rest/ on the radio/busy etc you could just leave and go back later. Now you disturb them every time you want to go in the f/deck.

As for arming crew......jeez...that would be a nightmare.

I have a firearm licence, and I know anybody can purchase a gun in the States, but in Australia you have to attend training courses, safety courses and prove a legitimate need to have the licence. Asides from being cost prohibitive , to have tech crew armed would be a risk in itself. No offence to the techies out there, but not everyone can handle the responsibility of a firearm....its as simple as that. Plus to be able to effectively use a firearm in a 'situation' you have to be practiced in it's use....not just shown how to use it once. It's a skill like any other, and therefore needs continual practice to maintain a level of compentency.

My humble thoughts only :)

[LowNSlow]

Ladies and gents, it's heartwarming to see the considered replies here compared to some over on the "other side" :D :D

If I was sitting up front trundling over the Atlantic / Pacific I know I'd like to have somebody else to talk to apart from the bod next to me.

It shouldn't be to hard to incorporate a minicam with a wide angle lens inside the door playing onto a miniscreen placed outside so that the cabin crew can check if they are going to be disturding operations up front before ringing the doorbell. Or even a reversed wideangle peephole in the interests of cost, weight and simplicity. As on the ones fitted to domestic front doors, it would be easy to fit a flap over it if the FD crew wanted privacy.

I think the phrase "knee jerk reaction" is appropriate regarding the doors. Like the ban on handguns in the UK after Dunblane, it doesn't seem to have been thought through before action was taken imho.

[Shadowpurser]

I too think that trainning the crew in some sort of unarmed combat would be a one way to address the possibility of on board terrorism.

Armed pilots! Oh my god! No way! Surely we should be trying to stop the spread of firearms across the world - not add to the problem. If every would be robber/terrorist/idiot knew there was a firearm in every cockpit of every aircraft I'm sure eventually we'd see some going walkabout when no one is looking. Plus if that happened who would be responsible? The captain I'm guessing. Wouldn't like to think how a pilots career would progress after having that kinda misshap on their file!

The F.D. door. Well after at one time wanting to join the pilot community a find myself thanking my lucky stars I threw the B.A. cadetship forms away. I really feel for those stuck in the sharp end all flight with only each other to talk to especially if you don't share the same sense of humour or social skills. Not that I still don't think it's a great job to have, but there's only so much you can say to one person on a 5 day shorthaul tour or a 12 hour longhaul flight. Another good reason for no armed pilots! I talk so much, if I was a pilot it would end up being used on me!!

Finally a plea to all the cabin crew out there. The pilots are the same people they were before the F.D. door was locked. They do appreciate a social visit during the flight if it's possible. On your next flight try ringing them on the interphone and just saying "hi it's ****** can I come in?" wait for the stunned scilence, then enjoy the smiles when you sit down for few moments in the flight deck to talk the drivers about the latest gossip or last nights episode of Eastenders. It also makes them not feel guilty about going to the toilet "while your there....." etc. I always go in and open up with new joke (clean and p.c. of course!! lol), certainly seems to ease things along I find.:D

[Pandora]

Shadowpurser,

thanks for bringing it up here, and please spread it round all your CC friends at work. :)

Nothing (well, almost nothing) at work cheers me up more than CC interphoning me to come in for a chat/ look out the window/ show me something daft in the paper etc. I try to make the time on the ground to go down the back and say hello to the CC working there, and am always the first to put my had up for going out after work, but the locked door has put a stop to the quick leg stretch visits to the forward galley. Contrary to popular belief we are not all personality free zones, and like social contact and chit-chat as much as the next person. However as a 20-something year old female FO I sometimes feel I have much more in common with the people on the other side of the door than the 50yr old twice-divorced man sat next to me who's usual topics of conversation are his kid's school/uni fees, his boat, his latest power tool purchase for his DIY hobby, and of course the T-word (as in 'Back when I was on....'). So next time you are bored and think 'what can I do now?' the visit will certainly be welcome.

Ahh, you're on the wrong fleet Pandora! All the dashing young skippers (ahem!) are on the French toy, y'know.... try running a fine for mentioning the T-word; I'd it running at £2 a pop last time. :) £6

[Shadowpurser]

Pandora - I will start a new thread passing on my thoughts. I hope it will make your life and all other pilots a little more joyfull!!

I can appreciate your situation as my better half is also a 20 something F.O. who from time to time has to fly with some of the peolpe you mentioned.

Since being part of her life it has given me a different perspective on your job, and I make every effort possible to involve everyone on board (F.D., C.C. , and PAX) in the fun and enjoyment that is and should be part of flying.

I for one would certainly meet up with you after a hard days work for a quick one!!! (Sorry, couldn't resit!! Old one's are the best!!!!)

Good luck at the sharp end anyway - and if you want some company...just ask...I'm not the only one in our relationship who's learnt something lol.