FI's looking for work.

[jonwilson]

Just looking into doing my FI add on in the UK but beforehand I was hoping to get an idea of how many FI's are out there looking for work.

If we can stay UK based that would be preferable.

There is no point in doing it if there are plenty of instructors looking for work and with the demise of some schools and the economic down turn I am fearful that this is the case.

Over to you and many thanks for your replies.

[HillerBee]

In my country (The Netherlands) there are quite a few looking for work, seeing the number of applications I receive.

[Heli-Jock]

Ive been commercial for a awhile but thats drying up and now looking for instructor work,,,,not a lot up here! :{

J

[MartinCh]

Also, from what I'm told/written in PMs, the 'restriction' is also limiting factor in mainly weekend part time heli FI gigs in the UK.

It looks like the heli vs planks FI gigs are inversely correlated with regards to North/South of UK geographical differences.

[kneedwondean]

I think Flight Training is one of the worst hit areas of the UK Helicopter Industry. I'm a freelancer and everywhere I work are very quiet.

[ROTORVATION]

I'm putting feelers out for freelancer FI - mandatory unrestricted, London and S.E based. Please PM.

[jonwilson]

Thank you all for your replies but I am interested to hear if there are instructors out of work?

Thanks so far.

[firebird_uk]

JW,

I think the question is a bit ambiguous and also I'd not expect that many FI's to advertise their non-employment here.

Also what is unemployed? I know a number of instructors that pick up pieces of work here and there on weekends, but have other jobs to pay their bills. Are they unemployed or under-employed?

I've also known a number of instructors that are employed, but don't earn enough to take home a living wage.

Getting back to your first question, I'd guess there's quite a number - but I doubt they're gonna want to shout about it.

FB.

[Camp Freddie]

If you try and do a cost/benefit analysis of "is it a good idea to spend all this money to be a pilot" then the answer will generally be no, as the figures just dont stack up and many people fall by the wayside.

On the other hand in my experience the people who plug away and are persistent generally make it, it's not a career for people who are not giving 100%

Becoming an instructor first is the low risk option to becoming a pilot in the UK, you should pick up work if you make yourself available. So I also think you are asking the wrong question, you should be asking "how much risk am I prepared to take" and if the answer is "not much" then give up now.

[fluffy5]

I was talking to a chap about the same thing last week, and my opinion is that the majority of instructors directly employed by a company is very few indeed, maybe possibly at most 3. The rest will be contractors / free lancers, self employed. The question which I was asked was " when do you know you can give up your job, and fly full time ".
The answer as camp freddie pointed out is that many of these guys still hold onto there jobs to maintain a stable income for house and family. My answer is that you know when you can transition over is when you can no longer turn up for work at your normal job, yet be prepared for a pay cut.
some guys can transition after a year, some 3 years , others never because they have a wealthy partner and just play at it.
The trouble is know flying school will particularly tell you the truth about the work they are doing, the guys who are fully employed will get the majority of the work and the freelance guy will pick up the crumbs, until one day they offer you an employed position because another person is leaving.
At this time most employed single engine robbie instructors will be getting paid about 3000 pounds before tax a month, and these people are few and far between. The rest self employed lot will probably do the above for 4 months of the year and gradually slow down to 1000 pounds before tax in the bad months of winter.

lifestyle change not a money maker.

fluffy

[Helinut]

Jon,

It may not be clear from your OP what information you really need. The information you say you want might be different from the information you really need. The majority of FIs working at flying schools are self-employed freelancers. As such, they are all always looking for work.

Your typical UK hele flying school tries to transfer much of the risk to other people. So they lease in aircraft and use S/E freelance instructors. They expect the instructors to do a lot of the marketing too.[This is not a pop at schools - it is just a recognition of the reality of trying to break even in this business].

Any new FI will have to work hard for every hour of paid flying. As others have said, the only way that normally financed people can earn a living is by sharing FI work with another source of income.That other source will have to be flexible, to allow you to take up any offer of instruction, whenever and wherever it comes from.

[fluffy5]

Most employed SE robbie instructors, not freelancers. Our on in some companies about 3000 pounds before tax, ............BUT THESE ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN.
Bond co pilots are not employed instructors that have been in the industry for many years.:D

Fluffy

[Bravo73]

Most employed SE robbie instructors, not freelancers. Our on in some companies about 3000 pounds before tax, ............BUT THESE ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN.
Bond co pilots are not employed instructors that have been in the industry for many years.:D

Fluffy

You might have noticed, Fluffy, that you are now effectively having a one sided conversation. For some reason, swapshop seems to think that it's clever to delete his posts as he goes along... :rolleyes:

[fluffy5]

Yep, a bit snappy today, rant over.

Fluffy

[jeepys]

The FI rating is a good apprenticeship.

Yep it surely is a tough end of the industry to work in and I do not blame anyone for not wanting to do it especially if they believe there is very little monetary reward as they would be right.

It does serve however to be a good grounding for the future whatever you go on to do commercially. It could be worth the price tag for that alone.

Those lucky enough not to have had to endure this rung of the ladder will never fully understand the mental torture that instructors have to go through.

Even if you don't plan to make instructing your future I do think there are merits to this approach even if it's short term. It may be another wad of cash you have to front up but hey this is aviation. Get used to it!

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

Interestingly enough I know of one FI job going in the South part of the country.

[tony 1969]

At this time most employed single engine robbie instructors will be getting paid about 3000 pounds before tax a month, and these people are few and far between. The rest self employed lot will probably do the above for 4 months of the year and gradually slow down to 1000 pounds before tax in the bad months of winter.

fluffy

Errr where is this then ?

[BuzzMurdock]

Hi everyone,

I finally got my CPL this summer & was planning to do my FI next spring; thought it would be the best way to break into the industry (albeit tough) & start out. I wasn't really too fussed to dive straight into the off-shore side, despite lucrative pay etc and can't afford the IR anyway...... however......... EVERYONE I've spoken with (off-shore guys & on-shore freelance FI) have said "IR IR IR. Do the IR"... "we're aaaaall dooooooooooomed"... the only people flogging the FI are the FTOs who want my money.

It's so bleak I almost want to self-harm. Seriously though, if FI work is non-existent, yet on the other hand CHC (as the current example) are looking for 500hrs for a co-pilot role and "Type Ratied on a heavy helicopter for example Super Puma L2/S92 " (though no mention of the IR in the ad... interesting)... WTF?!?!?! Will someone please enlighten me as to how the hell a wannabee gets into this industry? I've had my eyes-wide-open from day one... but all this doom & gloom is getting the better of me; is FI really no longer the way to go? Is the only hope the IR route? Please tell me this isn't the case?!??! :ugh:

[Heli-Jock]

The IR used to be the way to go,,,however,,,you would only be eligible to get a job with one of the north sea companies, namely, bond, chc, or bristows.

CHC put you thru a rigorous psychometric test on interview. Which is no mean feat! Bristows say 500 hours twin time, or Bristows academy trained, to become a co pilot,,,Bond,,,,arnt hiring at the moment!

However, i firmly believe there will be a lot more jobs available next year with all the companies,,,its just a feeling but im hoping for a break myself.


Carefully consider all options, visit all the companies for their take on the industry and pilot intake and make a judgement call nearer the time. Good luck!

I did my IR Feb this year and im still unemployed despite applying for jobs all over the world! ;-(

H

[Aucky]

It's simple supply and demand - I can understand that people can afford to want to get straight into the IR, BUT if only people would stop self funding their IR's with no guarantee of work then perhaps one day we'll be back into the more sensible situation where one can be bonded to it with the offer of work rather than expected to shell out another £45k before even being considered, and still working for peanuts in the meantime.

The problem can only be relieved if people stop self funding so ludicrously just to try and jump a rung on the ladder! We are as a group willing to set the benchmark too high, as if the cost of the CPL(H) itself is not enough :ugh:

I remember meeting a Eurocopter instructor at Oxford who said 'I was one of the luckier ones, I applied for the job without a license, and Bond/Bristow (I forget which) trained me up to CPL IR'

Stop spending your savings/debt on the IR, let them pay for it once the self funded lot are drying up - surely bonding with the offer of a job is the sensible way forward...?

[choppertop]

You get into the industry by knowing the right people. (Oh... and having the right tickets, the right experience, the right timing and the right luck.)

[Aucky]

.... meanwhile the airlines and offshore operators continue to laugh.

There will always be a demand for pilots for off-shore companies until the oil runs out, if there aren't enough with self-funded IR's then they'll have to start bonding again. I fear though that there will always be enough willing to borrow the £45k, and sit complaining about how they're unemployed with an IR coming up for renewal. I don't want to offend anyone, but I have little sympathy as they're only making the situation worse for the rest. The old way certainly makes more sense - get them to pay for it when they need you to have it and do your time to pay it back with minimal risk. I know that this means there is no quick 'in' to the job unless your very well connected, as there will likely be more experienced pilots who would sooner be employed and bonded ahead of you, but you'd get there one day, and as this thread was about FI's I think it's a very valuable and worthy way of building the 1,000 hrs or so that one would need. I know I'm dreaming though really as people aren't prepared to 'do their time' if there's an quicker way of buying their way in. :hmm:

[BuzzMurdock]

Well I'm certainly in no position to 'buy' my way in with the IR & don't have the folks that can pick up the cost for me (though that said, being Devil's advocate for a moment, surely the FI route is equally 'buying' your way in?! I mean, both routes require ridiculous investment?!? But apparently only one offers any sound prospects any more?!).

I actually want to cut my teeth as an FI; what I want to know is, is this still a legitmate route to a job in the industry, are there still FTOs still prepared to help out FI-(R)s with work even if they've not done their training with them? Or is it true that you'll end up still in the dayjob & no closer to that elusive helicopter job?

I used to think the 'safe bet' was the FI route, but now, ironically it sounds like the IR is?! :sad: Someone restore my faith pleeeeease??! :eek:

[Sir Korsky]

Don't despair, that's the first rule. Economic times are rough right now and you have to be prepared to rise and fall with the tide. It took me more than ten years to go from private to multi engine commercial ops. Opportunities do arise eventually and unfortunatly patience can sometimes be the only option. :ok:

[Aucky]

that said, being Devil's advocate for a moment, surely the FI route is equally 'buying' your way in?!

I guess there is some truth in that... Only you don't need quite the same pockets :bored:

are there still FTOs still prepared to help out FI-(R)s with work even if they've not done their training with them?

I think the difficulty is the 'R' - There are certainly opportunities for instructors if you can be flexible on location/travel, the problem for those with an 'R' is that often whats available at present is weekend work, and often unsupervised to give others a day off. So I think it depends whether you are asking pre/post FI course. If you haven't done it yet then chose wisely as your probably most likely to get hired post FI course by the people who have trained you if your up to standard, if the face fits and you did things their way. A good chat with the head of training pre-course wouldn't be a bad start.

If you are asking post-FI then I can see the difficulty you face if they are no help, and can only recommend visiting places, getting your face known, and hopefully making the right impression when you meet people...

Opportunities do arise eventually and unfortunatly patience can sometimes be the only option

I think this has to be true. And if you consider the knock on consequences of the 'current lack of demand for PPL/CPL/FI courses' - less people coming through the ranks means more jobs for us when the lack of supply becomes evident, and demand starts to outweigh supply. maybe... :ok:

[Pittsextra]

Aucky - i don't understand the focus on pilots who self fund an IR and the suggestion that they are bringing doom upon the industry. Why draw the line there, why not take it back a step to a CPL or take it back even further and moan about self funded PPL's.

In the end someone has to invest in the training and actually if you are bonded - which will mean whatever the contract says it means - you are going to be paying for some of the training anyway.

[Aucky]

I'm not meaning to say that it brings 'doom' to the industry, infact quite the opposite in a sense, the lower end of the market is flooded with over qualified under employed pilots. The industry doesn't suffer from this, but the pilots trying to get a start do. It means that with each generation of pilots the expected minima prior to employment goes up, as do the costs. Bonding of course means you pay for it, but in a low risk environment - your already employed and using it. Doing the IR with no guarantee of employment and sitting £45k worse off contemplatig doing an FI rating to keep in the air occasionally whilst you IR is lapsing must be a nasty feeling but may well become the required 'norm' with enough people choosing to take the risk. This is quite different from paying for your CPL (the right to work legally). Afterall most of the CPL is just having fun hour building and developing some half safe airmanship - worth every penny for the enjoyment alone :)

Addition - this reminds me a funny of a conversation I had about a week before my CPL test whilst knocking off the remaining hours. We popped into Wycombe on a nav, as we were there I dropped in on one of the most respected IR training providers to see what the costs, prospects, and most up-to-date advice was. I walked into the office of LS (first time we had met) and said something along the lines of 'Hi, I'm potentially interested in undertaking the IR' to which, with little delay, the response was 'Yeah, You look like the sort of C:mad:t who'd want to do an instrument rating', slightly taken back by the lack of word mincing I choked out some reply... A few minutes later having warmed to this bluntness and honesty the advice was clear - go and get some experience, preferably some twin time in due course, and come back in 3-5 years to play instruments. I guess I took this onboard, and am thankful for the advice. A few years and 850 hours later I have benefitted dramatically from my experiences to date as an instructor and continue to daily. To those interested in the long game it's not the most well paid or easy route, but it's a very rewarding start, and I think demonstrates commitment.

[BuzzMurdock]

Cheers for the comments Sir Korsky & Aucky; that's pepped up my optimism until the next mental breakdown on this lengthy journey! :ok:

My master plan is to go part-time in my current role once I have the FI(R) - assuming they'll let me - then pimp myself out literally EVERYWHERE, driving the extra distances to begin with (even when it's not cost-effective to do so) to - as you rightly pointed out - get my face about & build the contacts & hrs.

I've always joked I'm playing the 'long game' on this one, and where my pockets might lack the cash for an IR, I have cupboards full of persistence & patience that I hope will see me proud with the FI! :) (plus a half-decent CV demonstrating I'm not a total slacker)

less people coming through the ranks means more jobs for us when the lack of supply becomes evident, and demand starts to outweigh supply. maybe...

I'm counting on this!!!!

Heli-Jock, you're a braver man than I coughing up for the IR; I hope you get that elusive break soon :)

[Aucky]

I've always joked I'm playing the 'long game' on this one, and where my pockets might lack the cash for an IR, I have cupboards full of persistence & patience that I hope will see me proud with the FI! (plus a half-decent CV demonstrating I'm not a total slacker)

Sounds like the right realistic attitude to take. It'll make it feel all the more rewarding in the end :ok: Choose your FI course and provider with some forethought to potential opportunities. Best of luck.

[Camp Freddie]

I walked into the office of LS (first time we had met) and said something along the lines of 'Hi, I'm potentially interested in undertaking the IR' to which, with little delay, the response was 'Yeah, You look like the sort of C**t who'd want to do an instrument rating',

No one has Commented on what a ridiculous way to treat a potential customer who wants to spend a lot of money, and people who behave like this don't deserve to have any customers, I would have been more than "slightly taken aback" I would have been ready for a f****ing argument !

People get away with bad customer service on the basis of being a "character" or "eccentric" it's a shocking state of affairs !

[fluffy5]

Yep I had the same experience at that certain place many years ago, I walked in with a student, who was a wealthy business man who I was doing a nav ex with. I wanted to find out myself about converting my single engine Ir to twin, that certain person was standing there and another cronie and I asked a reasonable question about the requirements and basically these two people found it very humourous, they did not know me or my experience. After walking out of their place my student commented on how unprofessional that company was, and are a lot of helicopter companies the same.

Very poor company indeed, they only became wanted after CHC many years ago thought it would be a good idea to send some sponsored pilots to their place, other than that, they would probably have gone out of business along time ago.

Fluffy

[Buzzy Bee]

Are there many FI's looking for work? If a UK FTO was looking for an FI (Unrestricted) what would be the most effective medium for advertising a position?

[Bravo73]

Well, you can see if your free advertising here makes it past the mods... :rolleyes:

Or, otherwise, Helidata can be a good place to advertise. Avia Press Associates - Helicopter International Magazine - HeliData News & Classified (http://www.aviapress.co.uk/hdc.htm)