Tail Wheel Endo!

[propelled]

Anyone who hasn't tried, go give it a go!

Just got my endorsement over the past couple days:ok:, after a few years of thinking about it.. harder then what i was expecting, and aircraft demands constant attention! keep the stick back, keep it straight! :ok:
looking fwd to another go at it soon!

[djpil]

Good stuff! Citabria or?

[Shagpile]

Yeah I haven't got mine yet. Still on the "training wheels", although I intend to get my endorsement one day. I'd be interested if people view this list as correct:

Advantages:
- Feel like a "real pilot" (tm)
- 2-5 kts faster aircraft
- No nosewheel to collapse on dodgy strips
- Land on shorter strips (?)

Disadvantages
- Poor visibility in taxi
- More difficult to handle on the ground & takeoff
- Ground looping can f--- your aircraft [my biggest worry]

[propelled]

Yep, citabria. Had enough fun in her that i wann atry some aeros now.
I think i have caught the flying bug again.

[NIK320]

When I did mine (Citabria) it was the most fun I have had in the circuit since first solo :}

I agree with propelled.. If you haven't flown a tailwheel yet, get your bum into one!!

[propelled]

Hey shagpile,

Biggest advantages i have noticed during the training was that it makes you to be more precise with general flying/approach speed/stick&rudder etc.. And am sure these new found skills will carry over into regular tricycle types also..
Need to be right on the speed crossing the fence so it stalls just above the rwy for the 3 pointer, cant force it down or it will just bounce of those springy legs it has..
I guess the main reason taildraggers are great for bush strips is because of the prop clearance over the ground?
Still a bit of work to do on the wheel landing technique.. Found that one harder, so thats the next challenge..

[djpil]

Shagpile, your list will need to be refined, depending on what you will fly.
I haven't flown a Husky for years so no longer operate on dodgy fields.
No flaps either so no short strips.
Faster? Faster than what?
Some TW types have good visibility over the nose, if not you deal with it - eg if you can see the runway then you won't be landing on it.
Difficult - not if you use the correct technique and never relax.
Ground loop can ruin your day but nosing over may be a bigger risk.
A "real" pilot - well, I'd just comment that most of the interesting fun airplanes have tailwheels. You could probably wear a flying suit without being laughed at.

[Shagpile]

Nice - yes it's definitely on my todo list to get TW endorsement.

I guess I've heard just as many nose-over horror stories as ground loops, so you can argue either way. Prop clearance is a definite plus.

I was meaning TW vs NW speed on the same aircraft type. e.g. RV8 vs RV8A.

[metalman2]

I've just been signed off to use a Tigermoth, you can add to that list ' not being able to see a damn thing past the PAX head" ,it's almost like a sixth sense that the PAX seems to put their head in exactly the same place as you ,no matter which side your looking out of.
And Yeh, the nasty taildragger has turned me into an aeroplane tragic again, the most interesting aircraft do have the little wheel at the tail end!

[Trojan1981]

Absolutely the way to go!

350-odd tailwheel hours and I am far from mastering it. It can bite you, especially on bush strips or when you're being a bit lazy, but they are a lot of fun. Want a tailwheel challenge? Try a Pitts :ok:

[metalman2]

A Pitts is on the to do list, just getting my weight down and in control so I can do a check ride with a mate, who also is doing the weight loss/healthy kick.
Was chatting to a fella with a C185 (and about 300hours in it)and he'd asked a more experienced 185 pilot when he could expect to relax a bit on final, the answer , never! The bitch will bite you the moment you do !
Met

[Frank Arouet]

You are all talking of course, about "conventional" wheel aircraft.:) Try a Sonex, (after the Citabria), before you wreck somebody's Pitts.

BTW, the landing's not over until the aircraft is tied down.

[dogcharlietree]

If you haven't flown a tailwheel yet, ...

you haven't flown! ;)

[metalman2]

You are all talking of course, about "conventional" wheel aircraft.:) Try a Sonex, (after the Citabria), before you wreck somebody's Pitts.

BTW, the landing's not over until the aircraft is tied down.

Can't see me bothering with a sonex, apart from not knowing anyone with one and being 6'3 I doubt I'd fit in one. And yeh , I'm pretty sure we're talking about conventional gear aircraft although no one has used that term ! And I'm pretty sure the owner of the Pitts won't let me loose with it till I'm reasonably in control of his aircraft , but you just never know ! So thanks for the advice frank ,I'll take it on board!

[Frank Arouet]

I own a Sonex and I used to be 6' tall before I got old. It will do aerobatics in America, but apparantly Australian air is different so not allowed here. I have full leg room and heaps of head, elbow, room, and some luggage space. Oh and I'm 100KG. 112KTS @ 15 LPH AUW.

The Sonex, being a short fuselage small control input aircraft, I would suggest you think about things like this before strapping on a Pitts.

If you want to fly one, PM me. I also have an Auster if you really want a challenge.

[djpil]

With metalman's experience he won't have any problems landing the Pitts. Of course the two-seater is like a truck compared to the single seater. Normal transition to the Pitts is after some solo in the Decathlon then some back seat circuits where you also don't see much out the front. Phil does tailwheel endorsements in his Pitts.
Glide (we don't normally use that word for a Pitts) approach - on downwind with the wingtip on the runway centreline - abeam the numbers close the throttle and turn.
However, metalman may not like the flat inverted spins etc that I consider a mandatory part of a Pitts check-out.

[VH-VIN]

Tail wheels are fun but you need big wheels to really make the most of it!!!

Piper Pacer Water Action - YouTube

[Super Cecil]

Tail wheels are fun but you need big wheels to really make the most of it!!!
Sort of right, a little bit bigger wheels (Mebe 800's) are good. The rooly big wheels do have an advantage in extreme conditions but most don't use the advantage. A lot of the yanks fly off tar strips with "Tundra tyres" and think they have to have huge wheels just to land on grass.
You don't need huge wheels to water ski (I'm told).
There is a fair bit of bullsh!t that goes along with the "Tailwheel" thing.
Frinstance in all but the very extreme conditions a 182makes a more versitile aircraft than a 180, lands and takes off in the same distance, more inside room, faster and will work off all but the roughest strips.
Tailwheel flying is good fun but rooly not that hard, girls do it so how hard can it be? What it does do is make you a better pilot by using the footrests on the floor more.
Dead Stick Takeoff, flight and landing. - YouTube
There's something I haven's seen done with a nosewheel, come to think of it I haven't seen it with a tailwheel before either.

[metalman2]

I own a Sonex and I used to be 6' tall before I got old. It will do aerobatics in America, but apparantly Australian air is different so not allowed here. I have full leg room and heaps of head, elbow, room, and some luggage space. Oh and I'm 100KG. 112KTS @ 15 LPH AUW.

The Sonex, being a short fuselage small control input aircraft, I would suggest you think about things like this before strapping on a Pitts.

If you want to fly one, PM me. I also have an Auster if you really want a challenge.

Frank, be careful what you offer, I am severely addicted to these damn machines, if you happen to be in Victoria I will take you up on the offer, I'm getting my Kitfox type regoed this month and will be making a pest of myself at airfields state wide so PM me some time !

[YZToby]

I recently did my Tailwheel Endo in a Tiger Moth as well, more fun than you can poke a stick at!

[VH-VIN]

Super Cecil you are right there. Tail wheel flying is not that hard, watch where you are going is the big thing I recon.
Like you say a 206/182 will take off shorter than a 185. So will a light 172 for that matter.
We use the big wheels because we do allot of off airport flying in our modified Pacer, other than that they just slow you down!! If you are going on airstrips or airports they are a waste of time. Horses for course I suppose.

As for water skiing we only use the water to land and sometimes take off, not keen on the high speed water stuff, bit pointless and dangerous I recon.

[dogcharlietree]

Tail wheel flying is not that hard
Oh, how naive :=

[185skywagon]

Tail wheel flying is not that hard
Oh, how naive :=
It ain't really, you just have to do it often enough to be proficient at it.
Practice and consolidation.
It was the norm once.

[Trojan1981]

I also have an Auster if you really want a challenge

Just out of interest, what makes them such a challenge? Admittedly Ive never even seen one fly, but there is one in Wollongong and it looks pretty conventional. Always wanted to try one though... ;)

[metalman2]

I recently did my Tailwheel Endo in a Tiger Moth as well, more fun than you can poke a stick at!

Sure are, although there are nicer aircraft, a C185 for instance would be my favorite ,but the DH82 has got oodles of character

[roundsounds]

You can't go past a Chipmunk if you want something nice to fly and a bit of fun. Certainly not the most difficult taildragger, but still good for learning basic "conventional gear" techniques.

[Dora-9]

there are nicer aircraft, a C185 for instanceSorry, it's a truck. A very efficient one, but a truck nevertheless.

Roundsounds has it spot on when it comes to nice aircraft.

[Frank Arouet]

Just out of interest, what makes them such a challenge?

Pilot needs to have the agility and dexterity of a chimpanzee to operate the flaps, power, trim and attitude prior to landing. The flap handle is above the pilots left hand shoulder. The J1B had a stall of 28KTS and you need to get the numbers right to prevent a bounce, which is very difficult to repair and a go around is usually the best option. A long wing makes them prone to lifting the windward wing at low speed and your best option is to believe they have no crosswind allowance. In this case you are probably better landing across the airstrip. (they land in a cricket pitch). You are flying old technology which is noisy and requires care with engine management because parts are not always around when you need them. In closing, I believe if you can master an Auster you can fly anything. Oh, and the term brakes has no reason to be put in any sentence containing the word Auster. The 85KTS cruise may deter some. People have been reported getting nose bleeds.

I hope this helps.:)

[Super Cecil]

Frank, I found it best just to land an Auster without worrying about all that other stuff :8

[Frank Arouet]

Also I should mention, they can fly without a pilot and they are difficult to shoot down. (ask The Navy). Indeed I saw one tied down, that was actually flying at the height the ropes would allow, and it landed itself in the three point attitude. So possibly the pilot is surplus to needs.

[Lineboy4life]

shiez it all sounds a bit complicated...

Never had any desire to fly em myself but ended up with a couple of thousand hours in all from cubs, 185's, beavers, porters & even a bit in that plane-on-kraik the Pitt's...

I was lucky and never got pushed into em before my time, the 185 I only felt comftable in after 50 hours or so (not a luxury for the private pilot im sure) but with the right training/mentorship/supervision its achievable in a reasnoble time-frame creating a well rounded stick'n'rudder handler...

...bit partial to havin another go in one now...maybe a DC-3...? pm me with offers...ha...:}

[metalman2]

Yeh DC3 , that's on the bucket list for sure, pretty expensive for a PPL , and the opportunities are slowly being reduced. There is a couple in Melbourne though, it might happen yet!

[Mach E Avelli]

50 years ago almost every student pilot would have gone solo in a Tiger or Chipmunk.
Time to solo was typically 10 hours. It seems that pilots who now learn with the training wheel at the front develop bad habits which are hard to unlearn.
Learning from scratch on a tail dragger would be the way to go, but I doubt there are any affordable flight schools that cater for this. Insurance probably kills it.

[dogcharlietree]

Quote:
It ain't really, you just have to do it often enough to be proficient at it.
Practice and consolidation.
It was the norm once.

and pray tell, how many thousands of hours do you have on tail-draggers to make such a statement?

Just out of interest, what makes them such a challenge?
It's all to do with the Centre of Gravity being BEHIND the main wheels as opposed to nosewheel, where the CoG is in front of the mainwheels.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Also I should mention, they can fly without a pilot and they are difficult to shoot down. (ask The Navy).

Pretty sure the Furies had no dramas getting it down again. The RAAF Meteors had the trouble.:}

[185skywagon]

Dogcharlie,
A bit.
Cheers.
185.

[Cloud Basher]

I agree that tail wheel flying is not hard. It simply means the pilot of a tail wheel aircraft needs to be actively involved in ALL aspects of the flying the aircraft near the ground. If you are a lazy pilot and relax in the ground environment with a tail wheel aircraft then you may very well get bitten. But actually continue to pilot the aircraft and guess what it ain't hard.

A perfect example is how many nose wheel aircraft do you see who upon landing immediately lower the nose wheel? Answer: The vast majority. Even when flying nose draggers you will see tail wheel pilots and also those who are not lazy pilots keep full back stick/column to aid in aerodynamic braking and to help slow the aircraft. It is simply good pilotage/airmanship. However most pilots at this stage sadly let the nose drop, and just "steer" the aircraft to the ground destination.

I learnt to drive an aeroplane on nose wheel aircraft and it wasn't until I learnt to fly tail draggers that I actually learnt to fly and pilot an aircraft. Those who have made this transition will know what I am talking about. Those that haven't will likely get all defensive.

But back to my first point. Tail draggers are not hard to fly/land or anything else. They just require you, the pilot, to actually be a pilot.

Cheers
CB

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I'm with Dora-9....and....
If you really want to learn on a nice Chippy, then RACWA has the last Chippy being operated by an Aero Club in AUS.....
"The Poor Man's Spitfire".... So the book says....
:ok:

[dogcharlietree]

Obviously I'm the odd man out ;). I was tail-dragger trained by an aviator who had in excess of 13,000hrs on DC-3's alone. Not to mention Tiger Moths and Chippies. What he taught and instilled into me about tail-draggers I guess has been lost these days. I will now bow out of the conversation and leave it with the young-un's. :sad:

[Trojan1981]

Dogcharlietree,


Quote:



Just out of interest, what makes them such a challenge?

It's all to do with the Centre of Gravity being BEHIND the main wheels as opposed to nosewheel, where the CoG is in front of the mainwheels.

Yes, but is this any worse on an Auster, specifically?

I have about 350 hours on Citabria/Scout and 15 or so on the Pitts, with the odd few hours in a Tiger. Is the Auster more callenging than any of them?

[Old but not bold]

I was trying to avoid getting involved in this thread, but???
I am really not sure why an endorsement is really neccesary. As mentioned by others, up until the late 1950's nearly everyone learnt on taildragers and thought nothing of it, when the early Cessnas and Pipers stuck on a nosewheel it did make things a little easier (too easy) but had the effect of producing less compeptent Pilots. Now to get T/W endo all you have to learn are few different techniques such as;

The Rudder pedals are not footrests
How to make a proper balanced turn
The correct approach speed
How to hold off and flare correctly
I did a bit of my Training on Chippies and Tigers and later on owned a Tiger, Super Cub but mostly many hours on a Cessna 170A.

I was trained well and as such never had a ground loop in over 2000 of T/W time.

so all those that are a bit tententive about learning to fly a "proper Aeroplane" my advice is go to it, the best money you will ever spend.
Now where did I leave my Pipe and Slippers?
Cheers

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I am really not sure why an endorsement is really neccesary.

...a nosewheel it did make things a little easier (too easy) but had the effect of producing less compeptent Pilots. Now to get T/W endo all you have to learn are few different techniques such as;

The Rudder pedals are not footrests
How to make a proper balanced turn
The correct approach speed
How to hold off and flare correctly


And there you go....:cool:

Mind you, I am in full agreement that tailwheel trained pilots know how to use rudders. I am the first to admit, as a nosewheel trained student, I was woefully lacking in this area.

Everyone should have some time on a conventional u/c airframe:ok:

[propelled]

Hey all,

thanks for all the replies/info/tips/etc...

I guess main reason i started this was to just put the thought of flying in a tailwheel out there to any folk who has just been down the standard flight training route.. glad its getting some views and feedback!

am keen to try my hand at some new tailwheel types in the near future, if anyone has some recommendations that would be great, keen to try other types then the citabria now...sydney basin or there abouts, send us a PM..cheers guys and safe flying..

[propelled]

oh yeah, and i wanna really nail the wheel landing, so if any old hands (experience i mean) who are keen to show me how, let me know! cheers

[Old but not bold]

Wheelies are manditory for some tailwheel types and also helpful in crosswinds for others, best to get it on the ground and under control. In Tailwheel crosswind landings, holding off for a 3 pointer could see you drifting off the runway then having to use rudder to get back on the runway setting up a groundloop?
Wheel technique roughly is flare but do not hold off, let the mains touch and as soon as you hear the squeal push forward on the stick to keep the tail up (nail it) if you don't keep level as soon as you touch down the Tail will drop resulting in a nose up attitude and small lift off with no airspeed and then back down in what then becomes a series of bounces that increase in size "hopity hop down the runway".
A good Instuctor will demonstrate and teach both landing techniques until you are totally competent. You will then have the most important tools to fly a real aeroplane :ok:

[propelled]

Thanks Old not bold... doing a few more laps of the circuit will help me im sure..

[svenski59]

I fully recommend the tail wheel flying, the cons you mentioned aren't really cons, you can ground loop it but why would you do anything to result in a ground loop, just keep the feet active...

Less likely to prop strike on a rough field too. I was converted and sought a tail wheel (Kitfox), I love it and will never look back.

Steve.

[Flanker978]

I concur. A great thing to do. I got signed off this morning in a Super Decathlon.
Like you propeller, still have a bit of work to do on the wheelers.
Lots of fun, pretty challenging but very rewarding to nail a 3 pointer on the markers.

[HarleyD]

I must say that I am but surprised that you chasps have been 'signed off' with a tailwheel endo without 'mastering' the wheeler.

I would have thought that it would be a prerequisite to demonstrate, to a satisfactory standard, all types of landings (and take offs as well) including the wheeler and max demonstrated X winds, wing down and kick straight wheelers and 3 pointers to get a tick.

The champion products are very simple to fly, and when I do endos I always get the student into another type, (preferable a wuneighty) and run around the block a few times to see if the principles are imbedded. Then a load check to max aft in the 180, an old one without the small dorsal, in a cross wind to top it all off. If they can do all that and I would trust them with my family on board, I will sign them off. otherwise, they do more decathlon time before we try again.

I agree that it is a very good skills enhancement for those trained on milk stools, as all the harping about keeping straight and use of rudder during ab initio is generally disregarded by pilots who have convinced themselves that all that sh!t is not important. Doing a TW endo brings into sharp focus exactly WHY the instructor has been carrying on about it all the time.

Someone trained on a docile tailwheeler adapts quicker to a sensitive one, than someone who has gone the nosewheel route as the basic yaw control skills are default settings, unlike the tricycle pilot, to whom the rudder pedals may just as well be painted on the firewall for all they care.

What's special about Austers....absolutely nothing (say it again, yeah!)

My vote for nicest tailwheel aircraft to fly - Chippy of course! Also a very good trainer, even though docile , you really do need to use the rudders for ALL stages of the flight as even subtle changes in speed and power are quite noticeable, and your feet will need to be used with every nuance to keep it all nicely balanced.

No, make that the nicest to fly, regardless of where the wheels are. I recommend it to all those who are new to tailwheel aircraft, find one and do some time in it, you will not regret a minute or a dollar you have spent.

If i was Margaret Pomerantz I would give it 4 and a half stars.

HD
-

[Flanker978]

I must say that I am but surprised that you chasps have been 'signed off' with a
tailwheel endo without 'mastering' the wheeler.

Lets say we need more work to 'perfect' the wheeler.

[rjtjrt]

Harley
That sounds like good advice.
PM sent.
John

[truthinbeer]

11th Nov 2013 12:49 Dr Oakenfold -
Any recommendations on who to see for the endorsement based in Sydney? A friend bought a Maule and then went to Curtis Aviation at Camden to complete his license. Did it in quick-time too so I figure they were ok.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re 'my vote for nicest tail wheel aircraft to fly'......
I do believe that A.C.F.T. at JT have a Chippy avbl for training and hire....
And, at a 'reasonable' rate....

Cheers:ok:

[roundsounds]

Hazair in Albury also have a nice Chippy available for private hire and a G model T6 Harvard for dual instruction.

[kaz3g]

Super Cecil: Frank, I found it best just to land an Auster without worrying about all that other stuff

If you really have landed an Auster as PIC, and have done so in a range of conditions, you will know that they take more than the usual degree of attention to avoid the landing becoming an event.

Bungee suspension, high wing with a span of 36', low wing loading, light basic weight and little braking from the heel-activated cable operated mechanical brakes combine to make it a bit of a challenge in a cross-wind. It was designed when airfields were all over and it's ability to bounce and swing is legendary. They keep you honest!

Mine has an 0-320 in it and its a sweet little aeroplane to fly.

Kaz

[djpil]

My experience has been that people who learn both three-pointers and wheelers for their tail-wheel endorsement on a Decathlon (students of present company excepted) fail to master the wheeler or confuse the two techniques resulting in their passenger (me) getting very scared for safety of the aeroplane and occupants.
Some schools only teach three-pointers on the Decathlon (I have some old handling notes which have been around Moorabbin for many years stating that wheelers should not be done). After some solo experience it doesn't take long to get some dual and really master wheelers.
Of course, some-one doing the endorsement then moving onto another type definitely must do wheelers.
Otherwise, my opinion of Decathlon tail-wheel training is that if the individual is sticking with that type for the immediate future then the best plan is to master the three-pointer, get some experience on it then come back and master the wheeler. The aeroplane can easily handle crosswinds to the max recommended etc with the three-point technique.

Regardless, the new draft Part 61 MOS which may be dropped on us before 4th December gives us the required performance criteria to apply in future. For example:
Lands aeroplane in the following profiles:
o main wheels and tail wheel simultaneously (three-point landing)
o wheel landing (main wheels only on touchdown)
o flapless landing
....
Crosswind, headwind or tailwind to the limits of the aircraft type.
 Sealed, gravel or grass runways.

Short landing.
 Calculates landing performance in accordance with performance chart.
 Stops aeroplane within calculated landing distance. Good luck with that!

[Super Cecil]

you really have landed an Auster as PIC, and have done so in a range of conditions, you will know that they take more than the usual degree of attention to avoid the landing becoming an event.
The answer is yes. I have flown a couple of other tailwheel aircraft as well :E
Tailwheel flying is considered a black art by some and that you have to be "Special" to do it, while my mum thought I was "Special" no body else does. If a chump like myself can do it anybody can. It's a learned skill like any other, those that fly them are the same as anybody else.

[kaz3g]

Sharpie only taught 3 pointers in BIK when I did my endorsement in 1984 at Coldstream.

Nic Cauldwell taught me to do wheelers in an Auster at Tyabb when I did a couple of hours with him before buying BYM but he felt they were not as safe an option as conventional landings due to the inherent bounce and things unravelling quickly.

I generally 3 point BYM whereas I would always wheel a C170.

Kaz