"...you can just land."

[t'aint natural]

Happened again today. Fixed-wing pilot starting out on helicopters, who says: "And anyway, if you run into bad weather, you can just land it, can't you."
I've never liked the thinking behind that one, but after the guy said it today I got into a discussion about it with a grown-up helicopter pilot with 12,000 hours, lots of it in filthy weather around Scotland, and not a mark on him. How many times, I asked him, have you had to land out when you've run into bad weather.
"Never," he said.
Uncharitably I expressed my doubts, but he holds to his story. He's turned back or diverted to alternates on numerous occasions, but never just put it in a field.
The dangers are obvious - bad ground, unknown approach, the HT wires and the CAA are all out to get you. But, he says, landing out is simply evidence of bad attitude and bad planning. The CAA won't get you for landing, but they will get you for having to.
Oo-er. I've landed out twice in my short career, once for weather, once for stubble smoke. What is the correct response to the next fixed-wing pilot who says: "you can just land..."?

[Roofus]

Hi t'aint.

My answer would be yes you can.

I prefer to turn back or divert but I can just land.

An example would be a recent job I was on.

A mountain rescue of a young lad. Winchman was on the ground stabilising the young chap & the weather was closing in, in the form of a heavy snow shower. We elected to move further down the valley, landed on at a suitable sight & waited out the weather. 20 mins later we lifted behind the worst of the weather & retrieved our winchman & the casualty & continued on to hospital.

I cartainly wouldn't advocate the fact that we can 'just land' as a reason to get airbourne in adverse weather. But if it all starts going pear shaped it's nice to know we can! :)

[IanSeager]

I guess that I've got fewer rotary hours than anyone else in here...so decide for yourself if the following is of any value...

One of my first post PPL cross country trips (R22), I had a passenger who had never flown, the TAFs were good for the day. Outbound trip no problem, return trip another story.

About half an hour from my home airfield it started raining, then it got heavier. Slightly clearer weather to the west, but the hot danger area didn't seem like a good option at lowish level. The military unit that I was talking to went off air (VHF), storm activity I was told later.

Being a bit stupid and a fixed wing pilot (No link I hope) I had convinced myself that I could land and wait out the weather if it got bad...err, well yes but only if you take the decision in time.

With heavy rain, crap visibility, rising ground and lowering cloudbase I finally decided that a field might be a good option, my passengers kid would just have to wait a bit longer to be picked up from the nursery.

Trouble was, by the time I had taken the decision to land I couldn't see enough to pick out a good field without any wires. I doubt that I would have seen telephone wires and I certainly wouldn't have seen the electrical fences they peg out in fields for cattle. Having seen a video of an R22 wire strike the option no longer appealed.

The military unit came back up telling another pilot of a heavy thunderstorm, and a little while later my home airfield came into view. I landed, still in heavy rain. By the time I'd shut down and the rotors had stopped half the sky was clear blue!

I remember reading that experience is something you get just after you need it. True enough that day, I'd been stupid, but lucky enough to be in a position to learn from it.

So, for what it is worth, from a low hours rotary pilot - yes you can land if the weather gets bad, but if you want to do it safely you have to land while it is still good enough to reccy a site properly.

Ian

[Droopy]

Why not land if that is the most appropriate course of action? If a pilot feels that a precautionary landing somehow diminishes their abilities or reputation then it's only a matter of time until...

On the CAA point, anyone who chooses a landing as the better of all the options is going to get nothing other than their support in my experience.

[paco]

Just land and sod the paperwork. Bad planning, my ar$e. I also did several years in Scotland and that little bit by Oban can be a pain, as can the hills just South of Glencoe. I remember a Wessex landed at Crianlarich once. You can have all the weather forecasts in the world, and it will still hit you when you least expect it, especially in mountains. I made page 11 of the Sun once for landing in a field near Heathrow before a humungous thunderstorm came up on me, on my way into Brooklands. Told Air Triffic and all, no big deal. The best laugh was watching the constables walk through the cowsh*t. I think it would have to be a very poor Inspector who did you for having the good sense to know your limitations.

One thing I did notice, though, they all had to radio back to base to get instructions about what paperwork to ask for. Over here your local RCMP bobby knows darn well what to check. Such a difference in attitude.

My response to the fixed wing guys (and I'm one myself) - yeah, great isn't it?

phil

[Gaseous]

In this months GASIL on page 29. The CAA quote from a discussion that "emergency landing was not a trespass, and pilots should concern themselves only with their and their passengers' safety when chosing a potential emegency landing field."

I read this as - if you don't land and we think you should not have been airborne. ie not VFR, you are in it deep.

Having run into an unexpected bank of fog as a student I can confirm that landing was the only option. I was with an instructor at the time and conditions were not great but adequate, as was the weather forecast, and neither of us saw it coming. The descent was done very, very slowly. Not nice.

[the coyote]

A forecast is just a forecast.
The weather we can't control.
Our command decision making we can control, but everyone has been known to make mistakes or maybe not the best decision.

Hopefully we don't but should we find ourselves in a dire predicament with the weather due to mother nature or our own regrets, my answer to that question would be:

"What a great Get out of jail free card we have eh?"

....as long as we're not over water, jungle etc etc....

[RW-1]

He's full of it for saying it indicates poor planning. Here in South Florida weather can changes in the span of 15 minutes.

On an episode of "Paramedics" covering an EMS outfit in Tampa, they had bad weather nearby the hospital when they had a call, they evaluated adn decided to go. 10 minutes later they arrainged a meet with the ground units as they realized they would not make it to the scene, so in effect they landed out. Nothing wrong there.

When I was about to go to my solo's here, my chief pilot asked me what i would do if weather was in my way. Divert, go back to last place of departure.

"What if that is no longer an option?" he asked.

"I'll find a clear spot, do a quick recon for obstacles, wires, etc. and set down there to wait it out".

That's just what he wanted to hear. :)

[t'aint natural]

Roofus/RW-1: I think we'd have to differentiate between flying for the purpose of saving life, as you do, and the sort of social, domestic and pleasure I'm into.
As to the CAA's attitude, I recall (perhaps mistakenly) reading that at a recent safety event at Farnborough, when asked this very question the CAA chap said he would "have to consult the legal department."
If I have that wrong, could anyone who was there give me the facts?

[ShyTorque]

T'aint natural,

Your grown up pilot is probably north sea with that many hours, and will therefore hold an instrument rating. Having the IFR option makes a great big difference.

If he has NEVER landed out due to weather then he isn't ex-mil either, or if he was he wasn't trying hard enough ;)

[RW-1]

Taint,

I appreciate your grouping me in that category, even though I'm far away from getting to do it :D

The EMS heli landed for no other reason that the weather exceeded capability. with most EMS op's, it is only the weather that counts and the heli, the patient (at least going to get one) has no bearing on the go/no or divert decision.

(Hey Gang, I was going to just wait until I passed, but heck, my commercial checkride is scheduled for the 14th, at 1000 LCL .... studying like a madman for my upcoming oral ...)

Let's just say that if you want to use it, you can, but would use everything else available to you first. But I would NEVER, EVER bash a fellow rotorhead, whatever his skill, for deciding to out out to land and wait.

Certainly you have to give yourself time to recon and select the landing area for yourself, so you don't create a mishap when trying to avoid another in the making.

Don't get me wrong here, in the US I might not find the FAA after me in a land or weather situation, but depending on the landholder, I could face a city penalty, or county one for unauthorized use of the land. (hopefully you can get an answer from someone who would give you a take on how the CAA would look at it)My thinking is that cooler heads would prevail in such a situation, and besides, a heli is cool (even the 22, so setting down in someones large field might be the neatest thing to happen to them hehe ...)

A related story: two Canadians flying down to Ft. Laud, a couple of months ago, got full bladders. (For reasons unknown to me) they decided to just set down on the beach (not too many people in the area they chose, not dangerous into itself) and go into a restraunt. Well some on the ground freaked, police came out, etc.

They ended up with a $500 fine for unauthorized vehicle on the beach, but the FAA saw no CFR's broken, no action. Don't know if they beat the fine or not :)

I think it safe to say that that statement of being able to "just land" is one of the cornerstones of our machines capabilities, why wouldn't you use it if need be?

No right or wrong answer here, just saying keep it as an option.

[Arm out the window]

I've done it a few times (landed in a paddock due bad wx, that is), and it's been a good option - you don't use much fuel when you're shut down!
However, the wires are the problem - a guy I know had to put down, not because of weather but for a light (fire or chip, I forget), and they ended up taking out a wire and rolling the machine on its side with subsequent injuries.
They're always there when you least expect them, unfortunately.

[IHL]

In 20 years of rotary flying I can recall 2 occaisons where I had to land and wait out weather; 1 to wait for a snow squall to pass , the other to wait for coastal fog . In both cases I didn't have to wait more than a couple of hours, though with the snow squall incident we almost spent the night in the bush.

[yxcapt]

I fly a completely VFR ship and Inadvernt IFR is deadly. Planning and having an out will prevent most situations from turning bad. But when I have been cought short, I landed out. I prefer to be alive to argue with the Fed rather than having my family read the accident report.

By the way, the FAA may persue this issue under "Careless and Reckless". If you land out, I recommend calling the Aviation Safety Program Manager at the local FSDO to give him a heads up and follow it up with a NASA report. Unless you have a habit of marginal activities, the feds will leave you alone.

[CyclicRick]

A few of the comments have hit the nail on the head. A weather forecast is helpful but NOT reliable (although it has happened!). A helicopter is in it's nature was designed to do just that...land almost anywhere.
I've been caught out many times by all sorts of weather, I check the situation left right and behind, look at my fuel state turn around, divert or I land on the nearest suitable area available.
Maybe I'm lucky, I fly in Germany and have never had a problem with the authorities. The locals always come out and offer cups of coffee ( if there are any!) and are generally interested in what's going on.
As long as you check your landing area and keep it all safe and professional you have made the right decsion.
I always remember "It's always preferable to be down here wishing I was up there as the other way around".
I fly fixed wing aswell and my personal WX minima are MUCH higher VFR that the law allows, we can fly in 800m vis clear of clouds out here legally, and that's NOT much.
Summary: Do it if you have to and don't wait to be wrong!

[Rob_L]

In the old days a cropspraying crew of one pilot and two engineers trapped in a Hiller 12E were returning to base somewhere in England after rather more than a few pints. Engineer 1 feels ill and rather than fill the cockpit with vomit the pilot dumps it in a field. After a minute while watching eng 1 throwing up pilot aks engineer 2 if he saw anything, eng 2 replies maybe. What did you see asks pilot? What did you see asks eng 2? Pilot, I saw a Giraffe, what did you see. Eng 2 I saw a Giraffe. Pilot thank f*** for that.

Landed in Longleat hadn't they.

[Vfrpilotpb]

On a flight from Wolverhampton International Aerodrome back to Blackpool, two pilots two R22's, Wx was good but we thought a very fast front would miss our route by going more towards the Welsh hills, just past Shawbury we could plainly see that to our dismay the nearly black going into steel blue clouds and rain showers were approaching fast, we debated as to whether we should go inland, but we thought Manchester would have been a bit annoyed at that , the other options was to head to Wales, but that was out due to fuel, so after a quick recce the other pilot agreed with me that we should put down and sit out the rain squall, we picked a nice big animal free field, also free from wires and the like, and one after the other we landedabout two hundred yards apart, just in time to see the most humongeous fire storm and thunder that either pilot had ever seen, just enough time to stop the rotors before all this. We took the trouble to walk to some nearby houses find out who owned the field and rang him, the man was absolutly delighted that two choppers had landed in his field, never mind lads said he, call again anytime!
Nothing lost in landing, I feel that had we not landed, the Wx and God may have made us, in some region not of our choosing. Still all grist to the mill so to speak! all that happened in 2000

[VLift]

The very fact that the helicopter is capable of operating safely in low and slow dictated conditions (clear of clouds) puts us in conditions that can diminish to less than safe very quickly.

If you operate without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface I can only see one potential fault, land owners approval for the landing. This means, of course, that you were within your particular weather requirements to begin with.

But, I can also say from personal experience that when the weather gets bad enough that you need to land this beast with unique maneuvering capabilities, it's bad enough you may not see the wires or the poles they are suspended from.

Other conditions may dictate landing as the most prudent choice. Not all helicopters are speedy enough to make and end-run around approaching weather. My 269A wasn’t almost 30 years ago. Landing in a field and waiting out the weather was a great solution that we helicopter people have access to.

[Whirlybird]

Let's face it; f/w people land in fields if they have to. It's just that they have a difficult and often expensive time getting out again.

[attackattackattack]

We had a guy on the squadron who was renowned for managing to 'have' to land on near a well known brothel in Germany. Called in, overnighted and returned the next morning.

The only official comment was about the fact that he managed to 'lose' his aircrew knife. (I think it's called barter.) :)

[Balance!]

I once had to land in a field in the summer. A dozy wasp awoke to find himself travelling faster then he'd ever been before. On my own I wouldn't have worried too much but I had my wife and two young children aboard. The youngest flipped when she saw it. Made a hasty stop and let the stowaway get outout (suitable aided with a rolled up chart) :D

[beacon inbound]

In relation to the comments expressed about the views of the CAA ..........

Safety Regulation Group (SRG) is interested in safety. If, despite sensible pre flight planning you still get caught out by weather - it is most unlikely that SRG would wish to take any action. What it boils down to is "is it safer to land and wait for the conditions to improve than to continue?"

Many of the previous contributors have made entirely valid points about the risks involved with such a decision.

The trouble is.... all too often, pilots (especially the less experienced) make an inappropriate decision to launch when they should remain with their feet planted firmly on the ground. The unacceptably high accident rate in non public transport flights in the UK in recent years will attest to this.

If in doubt - stay on the ground.......................

[t'aint natural]

Beacon Inbound:
I don't want to wander too far from the topic, but this statement 'The unacceptably high accident rate in non public transport flights in the UK in recent years will attest to this' begs clarification.
Granted, a single accident is one too many. But over the past ten years the number of fatal light helicopter accidents in the UK has fallen sharply, when compared with the number of hours flown.
I don't like people throwing off comments like yours, because some bureaucrat will believe it, or at least see an opportunity, and get it into his head that something must be done.
Do you by any chance (a) have some involvement with the CAA or (b) have figures to back up your 'unacceptably high' remark?