Working for Free!

[Hold_Short]

It has been brought to my attention for a flying job advertised within Australia, that an extremely large amount of applicants who applied, most having not even met the minimum requirments, are publicising that they will WORK FOR FREE! This is unbelievable and those that do should be shown the door to any job. And that goes to employers who take on these people and use them for their own gain.

I've never known of an industry where younger ones entering the profession are ruining it not only for themselves, but for those us trying to succeed.

It makes me absolutely furious that there are people like this out there! :mad:

There are reasons the Fair Work Act has a minimum wage, and this should be the MINIMUM paid. If you can't afford to pay that, you shouldn't be in business!!

Simple!

[Worrals in the wilds]

I've never known of an industry where younger ones entering the profession are ruining it not only for themselves, but for those us trying to succeed. The entertainment industry is the same; full of people volunteering to be exploited. :sad: Did any of the applicants offer sexual favours to the recruiter? That's also pretty standard in entertainment. :eek: If the Marquis de Sade were alive today he'd be making a very happy living as a recruiter for fashion models or reality TV shows, and probably wouldn't have time to write anything. :hmm:

In both industries it undermines conditions, drives down pay and generally :mad:s everyone else around. Before too long that particular career path becomes pretty much untenable for anyone wanting to make a living wage.

By way of example, this has already happened with acting and music thanks to people who'll literally do anything for exposure. A classical musician spends at least ten and usually fifteen years learning their craft, which is worth jack all when some inferior person will turn up and play for nix.

Agree with you 100%.

[flying-spike]

I once had a pilot send me his CV and he offered to work for free. I rang him and told him that if he worked for free he must be getting paid what he is worth. I have even had pilots offering to pay the insurance excess due to his inexperience!

[rocket66]

Ive also had my own experience with the mininum wage for pilots. Idesperately want to fly but I have a mortgage and a wife and baby to support. The so called 'award' needs to be brought up to todays standards. With all the money spent on training and study inbolved to obtain licenses its no wonder kids these days choose anything but flying to study.

Something has got to give and :mad: soon!

[superdimona]

2 words: Supply and Demand.

There's not much of a career path in being a professional waterslide tester, not because it doesn't need to be done, but because lots of people really, really want to do it.

[Di_Vosh]

Of course, this kind of thing has been going on for years, is still going on, and will continue into the future. :ouch:

And always for the same reasons which we all know about.

You only have to look at some of the recent contracts offered by J* both here and in EnZed to see how many people are willing to fly an A320 for well below average wages, and with the likelihood of servicing massive training loans as well.

Read through some of the Euopean wannabees forums and look at the P2F schemes where not only are pilots paying for jet endorsements, they are paying to fly their first 500 hours on line.

But did this start overnight? Did pilots suddenly just start offering to work for free, or has there been a gradual lowering of what pilots are willing to get paid to fly bigger and bigger equipment until we get to the current situation?

Maybe, if pilots in the past weren't willing to earn, say $14,800 for a ME-IFR job like the bloke on this thread did:

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/442689-whats-pilots-job-worth.html

and maybe if pilots wouldn't accept flying under appalling conditions like this bloke did:

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/446160-ga-oz.html#post6318126

then there wouldn't be pilots willing to work for free today!

Of course I'm being a bit harsh on Hold_Short here, as he's far from the only pilot who's guilty of this kind of thing, and people have been doing this since well before he became a commercial pilot.

Bizarre, though, that he's either forgotten his recent past, or is showing some amazing hypocrisy; accusing others of continuing the decline of which he was recently party.

DIVOSH!

[Hold_Short]

DIVOSH! Never have I ever worked for free! Let's get that straight. I have only accepted the minimum wages in the past because it is legal and nothing done wrong by the employer for offering it.

What the problem is is other people accepting and agreeing to a wage which is less than acceptable. It takes two to tango and the previous thread is right. Supply vs Demand...the more people willing to accept the offerings and promote cheap labor, the lower the next jobs wage will be.

A $50 000 a year job today will be taken next year by another guy who will do it for $5 000 less, while all other costs increase. And the flowon continues.

Although some companies offer above award wages at present, next year they will reduce TO the minimum and yet the job will still be highly sort after!

I'm sure in a few years when the J* cadets and the REX cadets get there upgrades, they won't be paid at the wage a captain is on at present. It will be less and yet each of them will jump at it!

[Piano Man]

My big pet hate and have heard it happen ten times over.

To low timers: go to AFAP where you see the jobs and read the pilot award!

I have also heard "it is easy to say that when you have experience". That may be true but most people on this forum would have done the hard yards to get where they are.

[PaulDamian]

Agree that working for free or less than the required standard is unacceptable for both the employer and the pilot. (Legally for the employer, morally for the pilot)
As long as you meet the minimum under the award, then it is legal.
The more subjective question is whether the minimum is sufficient pay for someone that has just forked out $90,000 in training costs and sacrificed 2 years or more for training and experience.
Lets say you score a gig flying a PA31-350 doing freight. The award appears to pay you a min of about $42K p/a full time, plus allowances for IFR, unloading etc.. (Yes, we all know that no one pays the allowances either - "becasue we just can't afford it...").
Lets compare this to a first year solicitor/lawyer (that I met the other day) that did a graduate law degree and incurred fees of $106 (law degree of $96K and practice course of $8000, plus admission fees etc ... etc..). He gets paid the princely sum of $35K p/a. Which is not uncommon in suburban or botique firms.
So the lawyer gets paid a lot less than the pilot.
Its all a BIG generalisation, as the first 1-3 years of any profession can be quite low pay.
But, after 4 years and 2000 hours in the book you could be flying a B200 (Air Ambulance or RFDS) for about $85K+ p/a, which looks palatable, if not enjoyable.
I'd be quite happy to do a year on $42K+ allowances on twins, but agree that it would not pay the mortgage or the lifestyle to which the family have become accustomed.
It is problematic that recovering the amount you spent on training and living at the same time is going to be hard, unless you have a benefactor. Or you have already made your money and decided to spend the $90K and chuck in your higher paying job (whcih I can't seem to bring myself to do).
Simple labour economics - supply and demand.

B.1Classifications and minimum salaries

B.1.1Aircraft classification and minimum salaries



Full-time pilots employed by an airline operation or a general aviation employer must be paid at least the following minimum annual salaries:


[B]Minimum salary per annum

$

Captain
First Officers
Second Pilots
Single engine UTBNI 1360 kg
36,734
31,532
Single engine 1360 kg-3359 kg
38,295
31,532
Single engine 3360 kg & above
44,476
34,717
Multi engine UTBNI 3360 kg
42,772
33,367

[Worrals in the wilds]

So the lawyer gets paid a lot less than the pilot. Many people don't realise this but there is a huge surplus of law graduates. More people are doing law than can ever be usefully employed as lawyers, so the industry has the same oversupply problem as aviation does.

Recently someone sent me a thing called the Ideal Job Triangle. One corner was labelled Fun, one was labelled Well Paid and the remaining corner was labelled Legal. The caption was 'you can only choose two.':ouch:

Unfortunately it's often the case.

[NzCaptainAndrew]

I agree that's too far.

No matter how desperate, you should not work for free. Flying is work, you need to get paid for the work you do.

[Aussie Bob]

First they pay to fly ...
Then they fly for free
Then they get paid to fly
Then they try to work out how to get paid without flying

Poor fellow this industry, the humble scenic flight pilot who works hard all day, puts up with tourists and flys over tiger cournty should be getting 100K + but it is often this job that first attracts the freebie wannabees.

[VH-XXX]

Fixed wing - You work for the smallest operator flying for almost free, in the smallest of planes, the most under-maintained, trying to keep yourself alive on minimum equipment, then work your way up to the bottom of the rung twin, a better twin, a turbine twin maybe and in the end if you are lucky you get to fly a super-safe and reliable airliner.

Rotary - You start in a nice little R44 doing joy flights flying for free, you work your way up to a Squirrel, you then get endorsed for this that and everything, move into high risk jobs, mustering, sling loads, fire fighting etc, then when you have enough hours, you get your most dangerous job flying full IFR off-shore to oil rigs in the most demanding of conditions.

Or, you join the military as a pilot and get shot at, flying fixed or rotary wing, the enemy doesn't care.

Who wants to be a pilot?

[MTBUR]

I know of a girl who traded sex for a job. 18 years old and flying a chieftain PIC. The more action she gave the chief pilot the more flight she got! But word definitely has gotten around, even in the 24 months since she first got employed.

[NIK320]

Who can afford to work for free??
I'm guessing only those who's mummy and daddy paid for their training spout that crap.

[NzCaptainAndrew]

"Fixed wing - You work for the smallest operator flying for almost free, in the smallest of planes, the most under-maintained, trying to keep yourself alive on minimum equipment, then work your way up to the bottom of the rung twin, a better twin, a turbine twin maybe and in the end if you are lucky you get to fly a super-safe and reliable airliner."

Thats literally the truth. :{:{

[Anthill]

Ha! That's nothing: When I was the Tugmaster at the gliding club some Bozo rang me and said that he wanted to fly the Tug for us so as he could "knock up some hours for his CPL". He said that as he didn't have a CPL yet that he would only charge us $5 per hour for his services! :rolleyes:

I wonder who he works for now?:cool:

[Checkboard]

I have only accepted the minimum wages in the past because it is legal and nothing done wrong by the employer for offering it.
Hold Short - with respect, go back and read your own posts! You didn't accept the minimum wages you accepted WELL below the minimum, and it is not legal and the employer is doing something wrong.

The union wouldn't help you because you weren't a member. You can still pursue legal action against the employers for the wages they withheld from you, though.

[Centaurus]

Working for Free!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It has been brought to my attention for a flying job advertised within Australia,

Sometimes a difficult decision indeed. With a huge over-supply of pilots in Australia, something has to give. Everyone has an angle and in the end it all boils down to how much are you prepared to spend to get a flying job. Take Lion air Indonesia where pay-to-fly is all the go. CPL graduate gets himself a 737 type rating in USA at half the price he will pay for an Australian based type rating provider.

He then coughs up another 20 grand or more to buy himself a right hand seat slot in an Asian airline via Eagle Jet in USA or similar. No pay of course. Six months later he has 300 hours on the 737/A320 and is offered a full time job with pay in the RH seat having proved he isn't a nutter. Six years later with 4-5000 hours on the Airbus or 737 he will be upgraded to captain. From there on he is home and hosed.

Never happen in Australia because of the surfeit of spare pilots doing instructor courses on a C152 after CPL. Six years later he will be a grade one with 2500 hours as an instructor if he gets the job and his compatriot in Indonesia is a 737 captain. It is a no brainer if you have the money to spare.

Whether you fly for free in a Cessna 172/210 in Australian general aviation to get ahead of the mob or fly for free in an airliner in Indonesia to get ahead of the mob, what's the difference in principle. I don't agree with the principle but take it or leave it.

[Howard Hughes]

Did any of the applicants offer sexual favours to the recruiter? That's also pretty standard in entertainment.
No wonder those HR types are always so happy!;)

[PLovett]

Centaurus, an excellent post that highlights the problems facing an aspiring pilot today who is deciding where to spend their dollar.

The industry is changing rapidly, the old paradigms are fading. I suspect that it will not be very long before the supply of airline pilots in Australia comes from cadet schemes. The supply of pilots is decreasing. Their may be an over-supply today, although even there I think there may be a shortage of experienced pilots in the general aviation ranks.

The manufacturers are stating that there will be a shortage of pilots in the future. Student numbers are falling around the world but demand for experienced pilots is on the increase but there is also an increasing demand for pilots to already have the endorsements required and time on type, even in the lower ranks of GA employers let alone the turbine operators.

It is these pressures that are driving the increase of pay-to-fly overseas and it will happen in Australia. Until it does, expect to see an increase in people offering to fly for free.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I agree wholeheartedly that no commercial pilot should fly for free for a business. I do not cast stones however at a pilot who offers his or her services for free to true not-for-profit organisations.

If, for example, a skydiving club is truly a club and they are not making any profit then I believe that it is acceptable for a pilot to participate as a member of the club and fly for free. If however anybody in that organisation is making money (ie skydiving instructors, aircraft owners etc) then the pilot should be making money (even if it is only in accordance with the legal minimum - the Award).

Towing gliders on the side; same deal: if nobody is making money then fine, volunteer but if anybody else is cashing up then the pilot is a scab for working for free.

FRQ CB

[mustakid]

Never. !!! Have pride in yourself.

[mustakid]

Angelflight YES. But thats the limit.

[PLovett]

Needless to say though that within a couple of days a lowlife pilot with very little self worth and self respect will happily put up with those conditions for the hours and this is what most grinds my gears.


But aeropelican, isn't this what you did initially?

[Mach E Avelli]

Some ratbag companies don't pay pilots at all during ground school and induction. Hopefuls rock up for this 'free' training, live locally at their own expense, then go on hold for a job that may never eventuate. And it's not just youngsters falling for this exploitation - some silly old buggers who should know better fall for it, too. One would at least expect the company to stump up for accommodation and meals. It's not as if they are offering training on the space shuttle; usually it's just a clapped-out GA type or something with a limited job market.
Any company that is this cheapskate is NOT doing proper maintenance either. Caveat emptor.

[Checkboard]

aeropelican - it would have worked better if you had taken the job but documented everything and prosecuted the employer (with the AFAP's lawyers) for the full amount of cash after, say, six months. :)

... might have taught them a lesson ;)

[Jack Ranga]

You guys make me smile ;)

Mummy buys you a PlayStation at age 5, a mobile phone at 10, motorbike at 12 & a car at 17. Mummy keeps wiping your arse & washing your clothes while you work for peanuts. Back at the ranch, a pilots wage continues to fall in real terms, second divorce leaving a trail of financial and relationship carnage with kids & ex.

Then there's experimental aviation where you can build a plane for less than mummy forked out for you job, hell, if you've got half a brain you could buy a certified plane for half list price, fly on your own terms, sh!t! Might even be fun again........

Be a pilot for a living? You can have that :}

[Bonniciwah]

I've never known of an industry where younger ones entering the profession are ruining it not only for themselves, but for those us trying to succeed.

Try journalism!

[Trojan1981]

Too true Ranga! Fools and their parent's money....

It's much better flying what, when and how you want. :ok:

[j3pipercub]

Ranga and Trojan, didn't you both go and get CPLs? And now sit on he sidelines throwing rocks cos it was all too hard? How much does your weekend PA68 job pay Trojan? Or do you do it for the love and thus feed the problem?

The good aviation jobs are out there, you just have to look harder. FY just gone worked 400hrs, had every weekend except 2 off, every public holiday off, 135k net. Not an airline.

And I do still love flying, so much so I hire my namesake about once month and go for a tool around.

Mach E Avelli,

I think those companies are called airlines these days.

j3

P.S. Hold Short, you really are a pissant.

[Anthill]

The most compelling of reasons for airline companies to pay their staff during training and also for type rating is the quality of product. An organisation that renumerates pilots from the commencment of employment ensures that there are minimal financial distractions during a time when full focus is required to learn and pass a check.

Companies that don't pay pilots during training (and for type rating) telegraph the message that the welfare of their staff is secondary to profit. However, it is also a simple minded approach because as a result, the quality of the training is potentially degraded if there are financial worries held by the trainees. Low quality training = low quality operation.

Simply from a resource management perspective it makes sense to pay and pay well from Day 1. This approach would at least ensure that trainees are afforded a minimum of stress and distraction at a critical time and also would serve to attract a higher calibre of candidate.

[Jack Ranga]

J3, point I'm trying to make: I got a CPL at the arse end of 89' saw the way pilots behaved toward each other & decided piloting wasn't for me. Didn't fly for ten years, got back on the bike, worked commercially, realised that things were probably worse than my original decision early 90's. I had plenty of work available to me & I'm talking ME-IFR, night. I went down another track, earn't pretty good money and now fly on my terms, NOT Alan Joyce's.

You are working in a very volatile market. Your $135 gorillas could disappear tomorrow & I think you know it. Mix that with the latest generation to enter the workplace (my previous post) and the future for your industry doesn't look particularly bright.

Back to my point, nobody has me by the balls, not Joyce, not my present employer. If the show ended tomorrow, I'll be right. But that's from being patient & putting in a few hard yards.

I have a daughter that wants to fly, I continually say to her. Get another qualification first (which she is doing). Don't ever give anybody power over your future. Don't let some other bastard write your life story. Write it yourself.

[j3pipercub]

Sorry Jack! No job, in any Industry is perfectly secure. As far as volatile is concerned, I traded glamour for one of the most secure aviation jobs around (I think). If I get made redundant, I'd be worried about your job also, don't ATCOs need pilots to paint circles with at Maleny?

It just amuses me that guys who got out of the Industry for their own reasons repeatedly come on here and spout how we are all welcome to it. Reeks of Confirmation Bias.

[Jack Ranga]

As I said J, if the show stops tomorrow I'll be right. Re-inforcing, people need to write their own story not let arseholes like Joyce write it. Don't worry about my job mate, I'll be alright ;)

And just out of interest, the last ATC's made redundant was a rort. Any of them that wanted a job could have had it the day after.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Meanwhile, back to the original point...;)

I assume that neither of you worked for free or sub-award pay? Everyone has their own path to lead, and it sounds like you both did well without prostituting yourselves.

Try journalism! True, particularly radio journalism. :ouch: Between starry-eyed kids who'll work for free and Reality TV relics (who also effectively worked for free during the reality shows, which is why the networks love them) there's not a lot of room left.

[Jack Ranga]

Worrals, I NEVER worked for free, given that my first paid flying job was PJE.....go figure! It helped that the PJE employer was a decent bloke. I got a caravan endorsement from it BUT.....I gave him a commitment AND return of service.

How many times have I got to say it (not directed at you woralls). You can let scumbags like Joyce & Buchannan dictate your future or you can work for principaled people like Mr Borghetti. I have made heaps of travel decisions that have cost me more (present Oshkosh trip) based on travelling with arsehole operators (Joyce). I will more than happily provide anybody with my last 12 months travel history to back up my mouthing off.

Regain control bro's

[Worrals in the wilds]

No worries Jack, it was a rhetorical question.

[Stationair8]

It was a pretty tough job market post 1989, a lot of companies did the right thing paid award wages, paid ground schools, didn't charge for endorsements, didn't have paid ICUS schemes and honoured the good old seniority system.

But then the bottom feeders come along, let people fly for free, expect people to instruct for free, under quote legitimate operators with the pilot flying for free even on government charters, dodgy endorsements, the old pay for ICUS scheme, dodgy night freight etc. But what makes you laugh these guys fly for free but then bitch that your mob won't give them a job and you patiently explain that the boss is actually laying people off due to your mob undercutting everyone-genius then goes, "i am happy to work for less than the award!"

A number of airline pilots have worked for free, to get those valauble hours, a large number have also worked for below award wage to get those magic 500 twin hours. Happily name a number but then the thread would get locked!

[flyinkiwi]

It seems to me that there is are two rather discrete realities being depicted regarding GA down under.

Scenario 1) As said earlier in this thead, there seems to be a real desperation in GA right now with a glut of low time pilots willing to stab each other in the back and generally demean themselves in order to land that first job.

Scenario 2) In other threads, some chief pilots and employers are complaining about the latest Gen Y's refusing to accept ground positions even if they are traditionally the ones which lead to flying work because they have this expectation that once they get their CPL they have some divine right to be a commercial pilot and are not interested in anything else.

Would it be fair to say the true reality lies somewhere in between?

[Mach E Avelli]

The truth usually does lie somewhere between the extremes.
Working ground jobs has always been a good way to get into flying, and any 250 hour fresh CPL who turns his nose up at sweeping the hangar floor pending a flying gig is both a tool and a fool.
On the other hand, if the employer expects him to do that for free the employer is a charlie uniform november tango. Worse, if he hires an old mate's kid ahead of the one doing the sweeping, he is a lying charlie uniform.....

[diddly squat]

When I went though the disgusting GA system, most had to slave first to get a gig. Really Pathetic.

[das Uber Soldat]

So just to to be clear, guy who admitted working for less than the award creates thread to lament people undercutting his undercutting?

This place never fails to deliver :E

[aussie027]

It never does, does it???:E:E:E

[Stacko]

So just to to be clear, guy who admitted working for less than the award
creates thread to lament people undercutting his undercutting?

This place never fails to deliver http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


Is there an award for post of the year? Surely a DG&P regional finalist. :D

[blackhand]

So just to to be clear, guy who admitted working for less than the award creates thread to lament people undercutting his undercutting?I was informed on another thread that pilots can't even spell yroni:ok:

[seneca208]

I was once told by a prospective employer "you are unemployable with 240hrs"

That was for a C182/C206 job. He asked me to work for free and build my hours. Needless to say I never called back.

Unfortunately I am still unemployed, and had I taken the position, probably would have closer to 300hrs TT and a fair bit of 200 series time. However, as much as I love flying, I have an $60k student loan that will eventually need to be repaid, alongside the cost of living and the cost of renewing my medical, MECIR etc, which I'm sure fewer and fewer companies pay for these days.

[WannaBeBiggles]

I've never been an advocate for working for free, it lowers the standards for the rest of us.

However, some seem to think that ground duties are beneath them and seem to think it is the same as working for free. I remember mates doing carpentry apprenticeships, starting off with a 1 year "traineeship" getting paid two bits of f$%k all, sweeping up sites, picking up cutoffs, getting food etc Now they're earning a six figure salary.

There is also a growing trend of some people not wanting to move to remote locations, even if the accommodation is provided and the flying constant.

Lose the sense of entitlement, be prepared to work hard, even if it's not immediately a flying position.

If you work for free you're more than likely be working for a dodgy employer who your next potential employer will also know about and you may well find that by working for free that you've "tainted" yourself and some operators won't go near you as they know what conditions you've (willingly) worked in/with.

I'm a strong believer that you are the master of your own destiny, you are in control of your career, if you work hard, present well, stay determined and lose that ego, you will get that first job. :ok:

[717tech]

Well said WannaBeBiggles!

I've only been flying full time for about four years. But in that short time, it quickly became apparent that the guys and gals that arewilling to do other duties as well as flying, will be more successful than thefew that looked down their nose at such work. All on full time wages and aboveaward btw... I'm a strong believer that if you're being paid (correctly), thenyou should put in an honest day’s work and you will more than likely berewarded for it.

Never work for free! It destroys the industry for you andeveryone else!

[morno]

Nothing wrong with doing ground duties. Anyone who thinks there is need's a reality check.

My first flying job early on involved doing ground jobs like mowing the lawn, sweeping the paths, washing the aircraft (I even got excited and decided to polish one!), etc. All paid of course.

The current generation need to harden the f*ck up and stop being a bunch of f*cking girls (girls excluded of course, but then don't be afraid to get your nails dirty, :ok:).

morno

[T28D]

Anyone who contemplates"Working for Free" better be sure he or she is covered by Workers Compensation Insurance.

Not very smart to put your whole future on the line and have it plucked away by an injury that is not covered .

[Jack Ranga]

I'll back up stacko on das's post :D

And ben, it's funny how life & flying turns out, keep at it, don't work for free, stand up right & don't live on your hands & knees :ok:

[Arnold E]

I remember mates doing carpentry apprenticeships, starting off with a 1 year "traineeship" getting paid two bits of f$%k all, sweeping up sites, picking up cutoffs, getting food etc Now they're earning a six figure salary.

I hear and see a lot of this type of claim, particularly in the mining industry, but I have yet to be shown a verified payslip that backs up these claims. Show me the FACTS and I may be convinced, but until then, its all rumours, and lets face it, this is the appropriate site.:cool:

[pakeha-boy]

If a pilot flys for ...$1/mnth....he,s flying for free

If a pilot flys for... $100/nmth....he,s flying for free

If a pilot flys for... $3000/mnth...he,s flying for free

If a pilot flys for.. $10,000/mnth.....he,s flying for free

and now that Im flying for more than $13,000+/mnth..........I reckon Im still bloody flying for free!!!......WTF!!!!!

[Piano Man]

WannaBeBiggles well said.

Using floats as the example, it is a notoriously difficult 'niche' within a dog eat dog industry.

I have heard of too many examples of people sending in resumes to operators stating that either 'Floats is my dream job and will work for free to get a foot in the door', or 'I don't have the training but have a CPL with 250 hours, if you provide the endorsement then I will work for free for 'X' months'

What people don't realise is that for many of us, flying is our only source of income i.e we need to work to pay the bills. We don't have the luxury of mummy or daddy's bank account.

For those who want to break into the industry (and not just floats) then sometimes you have to do the hard yards! Be a ground crew personnel, wash planes, be in the ops room.

Not only will it get you in a company, but it gives you a fantastic opportunity to start to network.

Remember it is a very small industry, so don't burn your bridges. And for f**k sake don't work for free!!!

[Cessna 180]

What is actually wrong with washing the plane we drive?
Don't we all wash our own cars, dishes etc that we have dirtied?
Personally, I am not a fan of hangar sweeping and such but a nice clean plane to fly is much more pleasurable than a dirty one with oil stains down the side. It's just taking a little bit of pride in your job I think.

On that note I best go and get the bucket and sponge out!

Oh, and I guess I should add that of course I would not do the above without getting paid.

[mainwheel]

From a non pilots position, i don't see what the fuss is about.
Getting hours seems to be a huge hurdle for low time/beginner fliers.
I know guys that have gone to missions to get their hours up, which also includes other duties.
This is just some kid desperate to get some hours up, doesn't have the $$ or the time to work at McD's to get it to rent a plane.
If were talking about someone with 1K+ hours or an RPT job, or an operator asking then different story.
Surely this is a one-off jumpstart in his career!

[Jack Ranga]

Best sticking to your area of expertise mainwheel

[Typhoon650]

I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed here, namely HTFU.
I swept the floor daily, emptied the bins and did all the **** kicking work. And why should I have been let loose on expensive equipment and materials when I had no clue?
Now I really appreciate a clean workshop and will sweep and even hose my workplace out regularly, because I have learnt that it makes for a more enjoyable, efficient workplace. And I actually enjoy cleaning up now, it's very theraputic!
As a tradesman earlier in life and a workshop manager later on, I forget when the last time a young person came in and actually came even close to completing an apprenticeship in the last 20 years.
They all think it's beneath them and think that at 19-21, they should be on $50k a year.
They'll only work hard the first week or two to try to impress everyone, then it's into the routine of sneaking off to make phone calls, pretending to be working whilst texting, using company computers when not authorised to peruse Seek, one sick day a week, coming in late etc. When you try and discuss their laziness and disregard for anyone else, they get aggressive and report you to management etc.
They also seem to lack an attention span greater than a hour or any real problem solving skills.
I've learnt a lot more about the equipment I operate by servicing, cleaning and generally looking after it, than any text book can ever teach me.
Getting any sort of qualification guarantees you nothing, put your head down and do some work. You'll feel better about yourself and learn a hell of a lot.

[NIK320]

They all think it's beneath them and think that at 19-21, they should be on $50k a year.They all is an overstatement.
The place I worked at as a 19 year old treated its staff rather well. As a result myself, along with the others in that age bracket, were happy to work 50+ hours a week and our efforts were rewarded with a pay over 50k. Occasionally someone would come along that matches your description and they wouldn't last very long.

[SgtBundy]

Being on the outside looking in I suppose I only have a limited view of this. I would love to switch from an office job to flying, and personally I would not mind doing the menial work if it came as part of a flying job (well, I need the exercise anyway). I can understand you are not going to be doing it all from the start and perhaps they do need to extract a bit more value from you if are not experienced enough yet to do the higher value jobs. If you are paid for it then why shouldn't you roll up your sleeves and do your part.

What I don't like the idea of is what I see in say Ice Pilots, where it seems like the "promise" of flying is held as a carrot to extract some cheap labour. Come along, break your back doing loading/cleaning and if you hang around for a year or two and put up with their crap, perhaps one day, if someone else does not pinch it, you can get a chance to fly, maybe, as long as you don't piss off the boss. It seems to me to be on the same level as pay to fly or fly for free - using someone's passion and dreams to cheapen your operations. Its not about doing the non-flying work, its that in being hired as a pilot (after training and hour building etc) should have a reasonable expectation to exercise your skills, not just have them as a flag that you are keen to do anything near an aircraft.

[triathlon]

Prostitutes don't work for free. So don't lower your standards to below them. The GA award is there for a reason. You should expect no less. Just be prepared to be a productive member of the business.

[BlatantLiar]

Is this some sort of joke? I paid $80k for a CPL. I aint sweeping no floors.

[Worrals in the wilds]

I paid $80k for a CPL.Is that average? :eek: Wow. :(
You can do a Bachelor of Laws at a suitably snooty sandstone university for $35K, and it's considered an expensive degree. Even Med comes in at under $55K, including $15K for the primary degree.
Bachelor of Laws - Courses and Programs - The University of Queensland, Australia (http://www.uq.edu.au/study/program.html?acad_prog=2042)

[Arnold E]

I paid $80k for a CPL. I aint sweeping no floors.

Thats fine, dont get a job then.:ok:

[Worrals in the wilds]

True. I snuck back for an edit but you beat me to it.
You can have all the fancy qualifications in the world but if no-one wants to pay you reasonable rates for them, surely it's better to be working than not, even if it leaves a slightly foul taste in your mouth.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Not sweeping floors?

If you were dumb enough to pay $80K, I'm surprised they didn't save on the broom and convice you to lick them clean instead!:rolleyes:

[Piano Man]

No floor sweeping. Won't be going to far in GA then. Plenty of places where sweeping a floor or vacuuming the office is part of the job! I suppose for 80k washing your aircraft and cleaning windows is beneath you too?

[Aussie Bob]

Is this some sort of joke? I paid $80k for a CPL. I aint sweeping no floors.


Stop responding to this idiot, his name says it all ...

[BlatantLiar]

Thats fine, dont get a job then.

Just because I refuse to give in to doing a task thats beneath me doesn't mean I wont find a job. With a bit of patience and resilience I'll find a job doing what I've been trained to do, and thats fly aeroplanes.

[wishiwasupthere]

doing a task thats beneath me

Hahahaha. I'm guessing you were the guy at your flying school wearing bars and wings from your first lesson, doing your shopping in a uniform with an ASIC and aviators prominently on display just to 'impress the chicks'.

You're on fire mate, keep em coming.

:ok:

[Worrals in the wilds]

Beneath you? :confused:
What's your market value? What the market is willing to pay. :E

[smiling monkey]

I was once told by a prospective employer "you are unemployable with 240hrs"

That was for a C182/C206 job. He asked me to work for free and build my hours. Needless to say I never called back.

Unfortunately I am still unemployed, and had I taken the position, probably would have closer to 300hrs TT and a fair bit of 200 series time.

Is there really much difference between a 240 hour and 300 hour pilot in terms of employability?

[smiling monkey]

No floor sweeping. Won't be going to far in GA then. Plenty of places where sweeping a floor or vacuuming the office is part of the job! I suppose for 80k washing your aircraft and cleaning windows is beneath you too?

Damn, too bad I missed out on all that when I was in GA. Would have seriously loved to have been given the opportunity to sweep floors. Some dudes get all the luck!! :E

[...still single]

Sweeping floors?

Looxury! When I was lad, I had to sweep the gravel parking bay!! No broom either, I had a worn out bannister brush. And, I was thankful to have it!

[Jethro Gibbs]

FFS ! what is this the 50s DON'T WORK FOR FREE :mad::ugh:

[SgtBundy]

Interesting how we get about 10 replies on this thread responding to an obvious troll whose profile says they are 7 years old.... :D

[triathlon]

Quote:
I paid $80k for a CPL. I aint sweeping no floors.


You mean your parents paid for it dude! And you haven't even got the decency to pay them back.

[Mach E Avelli]

Blatant Liar true story coming up.
Someone I know well paid his own way to a CPL. I was able to use a contact in the industry to secure him a job with a King Air operator as a general dogs body. He swept the floor, washed the aeroplane, even had to clean the owner's swimming pool, but it was a job in aviation, albeit on the fringe. After a few months of this, they needed a copilot in a hurry, so he got to wear a uniform and sit in the right seat. Only a few months later they needed a captain in a hurry. The punters liked this kid's attitude, so the boss took a punt and sent him to the USA to do a proper course on the Kingair.
The guy in this story is now a Captain on wide body aircraft with a major airline.
All the time you sit around waiting for your god given right to a flying job just because you paid bucks for a licence, some kid out there is getting the drop on you by doing the hard yards.

[triathlon]

Here here Mach e
Agree with you whole heartedly.
There is no easy path. Just hard work and dedication.
The spoilt little rich kids of the world think they are owed a career. How do you get through to them?

[neville_nobody]

If you can't fly for free what are 200 hour people supposed to do?

Are we arguing here that it is OK to sweep the hangar and clean aeroplanes for free but not to fly for free?

Is it OK for a LAME to work as a engineer and fly for free to get hours?

What about doing other associated paid work for the owner and flying for free?

Problem with this whole issue that there is always someone who is willing to do it. So you can take the moral high ground and refuse to work for free or less than award, but you will be sitting on the sidelines watching someone else applying for good jobs because they did it for free or cheap.

Knew of a guy who had a very successful business and PAID an owner to fly his plane in commercial ops...:mad:

[Worrals in the wilds]

Are we arguing here that it is OK to sweep the hangar and clean aeroplanes for free but not to fly for free?
Isn't the argument that it's okay to be paid to sweep the hangar and clean aeroplanes? I didn't think anyone was suggesting freebie cleaning services.
Knew of a guy who had a very successful business and PAID an owner to fly his plane in commercial ops...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif
That's akin to having a negative self worth. :oh:

[NIK320]

Neville flying commercial activities for free is bad.

I will happily fly a privately owned aircraft, on the owners behalf to get a 50hrly for free. The aircraft has nothing to do with any commercial operators.

If the company I sweep the hangar for asks me to fly a charter for them and doesn't want to pay me to do it, then its bad.
That's a commercial activity and a pilot should be getting paid at minimum the pilots award to do it.

[RatsoreA]

If I may play devils advocate here for a second...

If, by agreeing to sweep the floors and clean the pool and service the photocopier blah blah blah, are you now not robbing someone else (who is not a pilot, and has no aspirations to be) of gainful employment as a cleaner/janitor/poolboy/photocopier tech?

Part of the requirements of service of community service orders imposed by the courts are that the work an offender provides is that they cannot be used in an area where it may rob someone else of gainful employment.

Just a thought.

And I have never gotten out of bed unless I know I'm gonna be paid! (Sometimes not even then! :} )

[triathlon]

If you are turning up to a work place and performing activities which contribute to the business so at the end of the day the business makes money, why shouldn't you be rewarded financially for your efforts?

What other line of work would you get out of bed for in the morning, spend 9 hrs at and not get paid for?

[Mach E Avelli]

I should have made the point (in fact earlier I did make the point, but some people can't read my poor English, it seems) that whatever the activity, it should be a paid activity. At sweeper/cleaner/gofer level it will probably only pay about the same hourly rate as a job flipping burgers at Maccas, but being in the hangar puts you close to the action, should a pilot quit, or extra flying come in.
From the employer's angle, it is a good way to suss out whether this wannabe is worth the risk before turning a relative unknown loose in a light aeroplane with his valuable customers. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the operator pays the Award once actual flying duties commence.
Many years ago, a famous company called Connellans operated a variety of Beech and Heron aircraft out of Alice Springs. Long before the concept of air conditioning, so it was tough out there back then. Even the flies were bigger and badder. To get a start there you normally learned to fly with them while you worked as a bag snatcher then graduated to the Heron as a radio operator in the air and loader on the ground. This apprenticeship took a couple of years, then you got a gig in the Beech and moved up to the left seat of the Heron and eventually out to a real airline job.
I have some experience of the Ice Pilot thing and noted in the recent TV series that their guys start in similar fashion, for the very good reason the operator can't afford to put unknown quantities into aircraft as demanding as a C46 or DC3 in Arctic flying conditions. But for those that cracked a window seat - definitely an experience worth all the crap to get there. Those that were bypassed - who knows why? Bad attitude? Lazy? Couldn't even drive the forklift competently? TV treatment does not always give the full picture.

[triathlon]

Well said Mach.

[RatsoreA]

In a debate like this, I am reminded of this little story -

The Story: The Gorilla Story
This story starts with a cage containing five gorillas and a large bunch of bananas
hanging above some stairs in the center of the cage. Before long, a gorilla goes to
the stairs and starts to climb toward the bananas. As soon as he touches the stairs,
all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water. After a while, another gorilla makes an
attempt and gets the same result—all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water.
Every time a gorilla attempts to retrieve the bananas, the others are sprayed.
Eventually, they quit trying and leave the bananas alone.
One of the original gorillas is removed from the cage and replaced with a new one.
The new gorilla sees the bananas and starts to climb the stairs. To his horror, all the
other gorillas attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries
to climb the stairs he will be assaulted. Next, the second of the original five gorillas
is replaced with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The
previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.
Next the third original gorilla is replaced with a new one. The new one goes for the
stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four gorillas that beat him have no idea
why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the
beating of the newest gorilla.
After the fourth and fifth original gorillas have been replaced, all the gorillas that
were sprayed with cold water are gone. Nevertheless, no gorilla will ever again
approach the stairs. Why not?
“Because that’s the way it has always been done.”

Yes, many the pilot has started out sweeping the floor and making the coffee, but also many the pilot at hours where they are not yet to be trusted with the heady delights of a C210 were given thier head in massive 4 engined bombers and set off over Europe to service the war.

I'm trying to draw a parallel on just because that's how it's been in the past, doesn't mean that's how it should be now.

At the risk of drawing a sexist rain of fire (those who read carefully will see that it's not a rant one way or the other), I ceased watching Ice Pilots when a particular episode was following the story of some guy who wanted to fly, loading planes, cleaning, driving etc etc for 6 months to be passed over for someone who had just turned up that week, who had not loaded a single plane for that company, with less experience than the gofer, be given a right hand seat with the owner owing soley to the virtue of gender (she was young and hot, IMHO). I don't know how much TV editing had to do, cos I'm sure there was more to it than that, but that how the story was played out in that episode.

[triathlon]

If you are turning up to a work place and performing activities which contribute to the business so at the end of the day the business makes money, why shouldn't you be rewarded financially for your efforts?

What other line of work would you get out of bed for in the morning, spend 9 hrs at and not get paid for?

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

Is this some sort of joke? I paid $80k for a CPL. I aint sweeping no floors.

If it gets you one step closer to being in the left hand seat of a 210, then why not spend the first few weeks/months doing general duties around the depot?
I personally wouldn't mind, as long as I'm getting paid for it of course :}

Quote:
I paid $80k for a CPL. I aint sweeping no floors.
Thats fine, dont get a job then. :ok:

Some one pass me the broom? :E

$80k for a CPL. Is that average? :eek: Wow.

I'm afraid so! :(

[RatsoreA]

rmcdonal,

Yes, a good point, and I'm not suggesting that's the way it should be, but that practice did continue after the war. I have just finished reading Centaurus' book (a good read, and available in PDF format, go buy it!) and that's pretty much how he got started.

But this situation should change. If I want to work in a nuclear laborotory and be a physicist, I don't have to start out cleaning out the spent fuel containment pond to show I'm committed to the company! If I want to work as an air traffic controller, I don't have to spend 6 months after I've finished my training making coffee and cleaning the office so I'm in the right place at the right time so I can help out (paid help!) when someone else is sick. And yes, going back to the waterslide tester theory, these are both jobs that people WANT to do, like flying.

[RatsoreA]

Once you do make it to a lab you can expect an entry level job, not chief physicist.

Just like after I have finished all my training in aviation, I should expect an entry level job flying, not getting a job as the chief pilot! Also, not an entry level job washing the managers car (which is what I did, and was paid for when I was young and stupid!).

I have spent many hours on the hot tarmac washing airplanes and vaccuuming the office. I am sure it did wonders for my attitude, but I fail to see how these cleaning activities made me a more proficent aviator!

[RatsoreA]

No you shouldn't as these jobs are highly competitive and always in short supply.

As are jobs in Nuclear science, Air traffic control and waterslide testing!

What you should expect is to have to go and convince an employer to employ you, not expect them to just because you hold a CPL.

I could not agree with you more! But showing this by mowing the lawn (which I've done!) should take a back seat to your proficency as an aviator!

So who should be cleaning the aircraft? Should GA companies with pilots sitting idle employ cleaners to come in and clean their aircraft? Then I suppose they could increase the cost of the flights to pay for this probably reducing the amount of work they get thereby reducing their need for pilots. Or they can just use the human resource they have sitting idle and get you to do it.

We seem to be having a violent agreement!! :} Even now when I put a PA31 or Aerostar to bed after using it, I clean it out, give it a quick vaccuum and give the windshield a polish. But there's plenty of other things I have done that are not related to the actual flying of aircraft that had to be done just to impress someone.


As for cleaning the bosses car: Yup there are some people who will take advantage

Yeah, that's true. The worst part was, I did it for about 12 weeks! :}

[triathlon]

You bet ya backside people. You fly it you clean it. Have an old GA aircraft looking as neat as you can for the business and the customer. Part and parcel of a paid flying job. Except the airlines! Contractors do that. And yes they are paid!

[triathlon]

As for washing the bosses car. They should be ashamed of themselves to have ever asked or expected anyone to do that.

[aeromatt]

Just like after I have finished all my training in aviation, I should expect an entry level job flying, not getting a job as the chief pilot! Also, not an entry level job washing the managers car (which is what I did, and was paid for when I was young and stupid!).

I'm with you. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel sweeping floors and making coffees are jobs which are beneath me, if they are jobs that need doing then I'll happily do them. However, I won't agree that since this is how it's been done in the past it's necessarily the right way. I don't see making someone sweep floors for minimum wage as any different from the low wages which companies like J* pay their cadets, both are taking advantage of someones passion for flying and we know how people on pprune feel about the latter.

Yes, many the pilot has started out sweeping the floor and making the coffee, but also many the pilot at hours where they are not yet to be trusted with the heady delights of a C210 were given thier head in massive 4 engined bombers and set off over Europe to service the war.

Aren't ADF pilots nowadays at the helm of PC9's and hawks with a few hundred hours? I don't have the benefit of experience like some people here do but I would think that if their civil counterparts can't be trusted with a clapped out c210 at those hours then perhaps something is wrong with the quality of training and testing.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Only if they can keep up with the same training schedule as the ADF guys and get the same result if they can't meet the standard. Scrapped off course. The difference with the ADF is Daddy can't cough up more money to keep them in if they screw up their second remedial flight.:E

[triathlon]

QUOTE: Aren't ADF pilots nowadays at the helm of PC9's and hawks with a few hundred hours? I don't have the benefit of experience like some people here do but I would think that if their civil counterparts can't be trusted with a clapped out c210 at those hours then perhaps something is wrong with the quality of training and testing.


No not training.
Attitude + Ability = Performance

[Worrals in the wilds]

Isn't the ADF recruitment process pretty tough, too? They get a lot of applicants and can afford to be really choosy.
There's no a actual competency test you have to do before undertaking a CPL, theoretically anyone with the money (or Daddy's money :E)can do one.

[triathlon]

Yes anyone can get a CPL as long as you can hold a medical and have aptitude and ability. Otherwise it will cost daddy lots more money.

[Ixixly]

Or Mummy Triathlon, its an equal opportunity world after all :E

[Worrals in the wilds]

Today's Dilbert...:E
It's not just aviation.
http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/60000/5000/000/165042/165042.strip.gif

[Spinner73]

Damn you beat me to it!

[triathlon]

I stand corrected Ixixly. :)

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

He was bottle fed....

[triathlon]

Come on now captain....:)