Flying for 12 hours with a corpse

[Bull at a Gate]

Leaving Heathrow I was in seat 3A. As we entered the runway there was shouting from cabin crew behind me, telling someone to sit down. 3 minutes after becoming airborne a call went out over the PA asking for a medical professional. A short time later I see the passengers in seats 1A and 1K being moved. 30 minutes after departure a corpse is carried into the 1st class cabin and put in 1K. The poor chap had died as we were taking off. His unfortunate wife was put in 1A and cabin crew did their best to console her. So far, what happened was upsetting but everyone acted as best as can be expected. It is what happened next that bothers me.

We were flying for 12 hours to Singapore, so I, and everyone else, expected that we would land, either back at Heathrow or somewhere in Europe, and the poor man and his distressed wife would be off-loaded. But no - we pressed on! Thus for 12 hours I was sitting in a makeshift morgue and for 12 hours the poor woman 2 seats in front of me was forced to sit next to her husband's dead body. Some of the cabin crew were in tears at times and, let me assure you, having a decomposing body only a few feet away in not something which is easy to ignore.

So, as a humble SLF, my question is simple. Who amongst the professional pilots here would have done what our flight crew did?

[TWT]

A similar event is described on the African forum which provides some info.

Corpse on plane (http://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/488881-corpse-plane.html)

[kaikohe76]

Most very likely more to this than you can say here, or was obvious. but it does seem a little bazzare continuing on for that length of time. Interesting to see which airline was involved, but I could certainly understand, why this info would need to be witheld.

[Ollie Onion]

Assuming that there is a medical professional onboard to pronounce death then there is nothing to be gained by landing. There are a number of thing that need to be taken into account:

If you land somewhere else en-route to offload the body and his poor wife, you are potentially leaving her in a foreign country with no friends or family around which would be very very stressful. In my experience the partner would normal be consulted when making a decision. It may be in this case that his wife had family in Singapore and wanted to go there with the body for the support.

First class is often used to place the body due to the lesser amount of passengers present. If you felt uncomfortable, did you ask to move, perhaps back to business class or economy (or were you not that uncomfortable). If there was no option to move then you just have to make the most of it. Some airlines actually have a chilled compartment onboard to place bodies.

It is hard to criticize a decision like this as there are so many variables envolved in making the call to carry on, crew, operations, medlink, relatives would have all had input.

[Carbon Bootprint]

You didn't say what airline you were flying, but I think somewhere you can find on airliners.net a picture of an SQ A340 that includes what amounts to an on board morgue slide-in locker designed for such occasions. One would assume SQ might have made similar arrangements for other long haul aircraft.

That said, it's not unheard of, lacking those type of dedicated facilities, for the deceased to be left in situ, or in some cases, placed in a toilet then marked u/s (how dignified, that?). Having had a certain amount of experience with the human body in far more gruesome circumstances, I don't think completing a flight with one of the departed would bother me as much as some pax do otherwise...

[deSitter]

Well, one less bag of peanuts for the bean counters to count.

Flying is a beautiful thing - but lately, it's nothing but misery.

[Load Toad]

It's very sad but - death happens - its not doing any harm, it's not smelling & it needs delivering.

Man up and get on with it.

[radeng]

Wouldn't there have been the problem of an overweight landing if they turned back immediately?

[Hotel Tango]

Load Toad, what an ass you are!

[Load Toad]

For what reason Mr. Judge?

[PAXboy]

I work with the bereaved and have done so (part and now full time) for 21 years. I have often been involved with families that are repatriating bodies back to the UK when the person died on holiday etc. I have not, thus far, had a family with this situation.

Firstly - there is more to this than any onlooker can know.

I agree that the wife might well have asked to go to destination. Depending on the carrier, a demand to return to departure would probably have been met, despite horrendous costs and time delay.

When a death occurs you cannot possibly guess what the bereaved are thinking - for they hardly know themselves. They do what they think best at the time. If their child lived in SIN (or nearby), that would be the best place to go. Perhaps SIN was home. The carrier would have been able to contact all the usual people and the family there in advance of arrival.

I agree that to be landed in some mid-way point would FAR worse. Let's say that fuel burn allowed an easy stop at Rome. So she arrives with no Visa, cash or family or friends and has to arrange the storage/certification/repatriation of her husband? Not good.

As to 'decomposing body'. I appreciate that folks who have not encountered the recently dead are often feaful of this but - in the time that was going to elapse - nothing serious would have happened. Cabin crew would have been upset, of course, their job is to help their pax but they would have training in this.

Yes, it was horrible but NO, you do not know what messages passed between the Captain and the woman as to what to do.

In bereavement, there is no 'normal and until it happens to us, we do not know what we will do.

[Load Toad]

Yep - pretty much nailed it there - stand by to be called an ass.

[Hotel Tango]

Load Toad, I was refering to your second line Man up and get on with it. I didn't think it was fair to dismiss those who might be upset at having to share space with a corpse for 12 hours with a simple macho one-liner. It can be a sensitive issue for surrounding passengers too.

[KBPsen]

Despite the world becoming more and more egocentric it never ceases to amaze how situations where other people suffer can be turned into a "what about me" situation by people who are mere spectators.

"Man up and get on with it" is being mild.

[edi_local]

Personal reasons aside, the cost to the airline in terms of dumping fuel, returning to LHR, offloading the deceased, finding and offloading luggage, re-doing paperwork, re-fueling and then getting en-route again (which would all take hours before finding a new slot even comes in to play) is surely something which would have been considered by the pilot too. People will onward connections from SIN would also have to be re-booked at the airlines expense too. That would affect far more people in a bigger way than simply sharing the cabin with a dead body.

If the deceased was Singapore resident then it would make more sense to continue to SIN anyway to save the family big repatriation costs, which on top of a death are not exactly welcome.

There are countless reasons to continue to the intended destination and I think most pilots would have done so.

[Load Toad]

The dead hurt no one. The live people are the problem. Death is part of life - if that's a nasty surprise for you you have issues. The world is not all about you; it is about everyone else. You have feelings - you are entitled to them, Everyone else has feelings - they are entitled to them. The person died. Very sad for the relative. A difficult situation for the crew - they are trained to cope. They do. For you it is just a person asleep & covered up. The flight turns around, the 'plane lands at some other airport on route. Inconvenient, lots of other peoples feelings hurt (most of whom will not even know someone died) - the dead & the relative possibly even more inconvenienced.

We have to stop being a bunch of wussies always looking for 'my feelings'. They are your feelings - you are entitled to them - that does not give you a right to effect others.

Offense - YouTube

[Hotel Tango]

They are your feelings - you are entitled to them - that does not give you a right to effect others.

But the "others" have a right to affect those who have feelings? You're argument is flawed I think.

Having said that, you will note that at no time did I say or was I suggesting turning around or diverting. I have no opinion on that aspect. Playing Devil's advocate, the only thing I objected to, and reacted to, was your macho statement in reaction to what a passenger may have found a disturbing experience, to which you have now added further insult by calling them "wussies".

Since deaths on board a/c are not all that uncommon it could be a good idea for all long haul a/c to be equipped with a special locker to store a corpse in. In my opinion this would be a better solution than disturbing 1st Class passengers (the airline's premium source of revenue) with seat changes and the joy of sharing a confined space with a corpse.

[Mr Optimistic]

Which reminds me....got to go on holiday with the wife. Shorthand it is.

[vctenderness]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was about a Purser I once did a trip to Narita with!

[Mark in CA]

I'm certainly not an expert on this, but aren't there issues with corpses of urination, defecation and even potentially ejaculation, not to mention vocalizations as gases escape? Twelve hours would seem like enough time for these to be concerns.

[PAXboy]

Not really. You place a rubber sheet on the seat, then a couple of towels underneath them. The first two can happen but NOT the third! Besides the man was dressed to give further absorbtion.

[Load Toad]

I'm certainly not an expert on this, but aren't there issues with corpses of urination, defecation and even potentially ejaculation, not to mention vocalizations as gases escape? Twelve hours would seem like enough time for these to be concerns.

Do live people not fart?

12 hours, covered up, low humidity in the cabin - the stiff will last for a good few hours I reckon. Can't see it bloating up for a good while.

[dazdaz1]

From the OP "becoming airborne a call went out over the PA asking for a medical professional"

Who was the medical professional? It could have been (presuming one was on the flight not stated in theOP) a nurse, dentist or a doctor. From reading the past posts, all (in my reading) come to the conclusion that this was a cardiac arrest.

What if the death was caused by some contagious disease, take your pick. I would hope airlines would carry body bags for this scenario. I would be very concerned sitting in the vicinity of a person who has died from TB for twelve hours in a sealed tube.

[Mr Mac]

I beleive Air New Zealand have quite a bit of experiance of this happening (nothing to do with their service) due to the long routes served and the number of grand parents travelling to see grandson/ sons /daughters etc who have emigrated. I was informed that they used toilets to keep the deceased in. Furthermore on one occasion they nearly ran out of these storage areas. I beleive this could be a bad taste story / joke:=, but Tightslot may wish to correct me on this.

[Basil]

I would be very concerned sitting in the vicinity of a person who has died from TB for twelve hours in a sealed tube.
I'd be even more concerned sitting in the vicinity of someone who's alive with TB. ;)

[dazdaz1]

Basil.....Ok I'll go along with your TB post reply. I'll draw the line with Mark CA
"and even potentially ejaculation,":confused:

Does that mean one can have a 'spurt' when one passes? Takes me all my time alive:uhoh:

[TightSlot]

We carry a bag and biohaz kit.

These situations are always complicated, and there are no hard-and-fast rules that I can offer. It's tough on everybody when somebody dies and as each scenario tends to be distinct, it is not possible to provide specific guidance.

Fo the OP - factors to be taken into consideration for a turn-back would include the need to burn off/dump fuel to reach a safe landing weight, flight crew hours restrictions and hotel availability should (as would be likely) a night-stop back at the originating station be required: If at home base, a new crew would need to be sourced. Set against that would be the inconvenience and distress caused to other customers as well as the legals.

The most common practise when a Death-On-Board occurs would be to cover the deceased with a blanket, place an oxygen mask over their nose/mouth and make as "comfortable" as possible (yes, I know): The intention being that casual onlookers will be unable to tell for sure that the person is deceased as opposed to being unwell. This is not always possible since not everybody who dies does so in their seat - It can often be in or outside the toilet area. I have heard of bodies being placed or left in toilets and this cannot be ideal: Distressed relatives would hardly be expected to approve. Once again, you have to make it up as you go along to a large degree.

It is possible that apart from those customers in the immediate area, relatively few others were aware of the situation if the body was at the very front of the aircraft. It's not really good form to drag The Departed around the cabin to the cheap seats.

[PAXboy]

Generally speaking (not a medic but 21 years in the world of beareavement) TB takes time kill. They would have been suffering from severe respiratory problems for some considerable time. Of course, a person might have the disease and die of an unrelatred cause. As was pointed out, if they are breathing - they are possibly spreading the disease, once dead, they are not.

There are, basically, three things that take a person's life fast and without warning: Heart attack (various kinds) and hemorrhage - in multifarious places - and a blockage. The heart can fail in ever so many ways, the person can have no warning (I took the funeral of a man aged 28 who appeared fit and played football and exercised regularly but died whilst being 'in good health' until the last second.) Or the expected kind, my father had been suffering from a failing heart for two years but was full in control of himself and died one lunch time aged 78. It could have been an hour later or the next week but it was then. So you can never know when your heart is going to fail.

Internal Hemorrhage (bleeding) can occur in many places and lead to a long illness or rapid death. It depends on a range of factors and if the bleed occurs in the brain (and the person lives) it's called a Stroke. If a vein or artery gives way, you bleed internally and this can be VERY difficult to discern even for a professional. If the aorta gives way - the person will be on the ground in five seconds, unconscious in 15 seconds and dead within two minutes. Some arteries have an Aneurysm that grows slowly over two years and, one day, it pops.

There is also the category of Embolism and Thrombosis, which is an obstruction in an artery (e.g. pulmonary embolism) these can also be debilitating in the longer term but are often without warning and immediately fatal. The embolism can be formed in many ways, like a blood clot that forms and then moves along until it reaches a place too small for it to pass through and Kapow. Heart attacks can be caused by one of these. Some are made up of small bubbles of air which can be as bad as a clot. So, so many ways to die! I'm amazed we live as long as we do.

What is known is that, in most of these cases, it makes little difference if 999/112 is called. The movie and TV world of people working for 10 minutes and then saying, "We got him back" is just that - TV world. In the UK, there are (approx) 600,000 deaths a year (it varies) which means something around 1 per minute. Once in a while it's going to be on board.

If the man had been taken ill during loading or taxi, then they would doubtless have stopped but, when he became ill, there was no way of knowing that he was about to die. By that time, they were airborne. Not nice for anyone and remote chances of death at departure. If the wife of the man had absolutely demanded to turn back, I doubt there's a Captain that would have said No.

With regards to exhalation of breath and flatulance: The exhalation usually occurs if the body is 'folded' when being moved and the lungs are compressed but not all bodies will make a noise. Flatulance can occur later on but is more likely to be caused (in this case) by the change in atmospheric pressure and that affects every person on board. As for the suggestion that a dead body can dispense (ahem) a very particular kind of bodily fluid? No.

I sit to be corrected on any of the above.

[gingernut]

I wonder if a kinder approach would have been to pop an oxygen mask on the old boy, let his wife hold his hand for the "last" twelve hours of his life, and carried on the flight regardless, until she recieved some TLC at the other end?

Difficult call for the medical professional.
How does one pronounce death in-flight?

[dazdaz1]

Problem with that Gingernut...... "I wonder if a kinder approach would have been to pop an oxygen mask on the old boy, let his wife hold his hand for the "last" twelve hours of his life, and carried on the flight regardless, until she recieved some TLC at the other end?"

I fear the deceased may have gone rather cold and started to go stiff, riga mortice starts a few hours after death.

[PAXboy]

Firstly, you cannot pronounce death in flight. It can only - legally - be done at destination and his place and time of death would be once a suitably qualified medic examined him, probably in the seat once everyone else had left. If there is a qualified doctor on board, who conducts all the correct tests, it would (I think) make no differance to the legal declaration in another country. As to the practical side. When someone is dead - you know! The legal bit is just the legal bit.

Likewise, if you die at home with no one to witness and call for help, and are only found two days later, your death (in the UK) will be listed as the day you are found. It does not matter what the forensics say, that is the legal date of your death as it is the only certainty.

Rigor mortis will set in at different times for each person. It might start very rapidly, it might not. It might last for only an hour or two, or a prolonged period. It might affect the whole body to be rigid or hardly at all. You can never tell and the temperature of the room can also affect it's progress.

However, during a 12 hour sector it would have started and, possibly, have completed.

Sorry if these answers are too detailed but it is one of my fields of knowledge!

[Load Toad]

Not at all - fascinating stuff.

Still wondering though what movies the poster that wonders if dead people ejaculate has been watching.

[teeteringhead]

Does that mean one can have a 'spurt' when one passes? and Still wondering though what movies the poster that wonders if dead people ejaculate has been watching. ... perhaps the confusion has arisen because it does/can happen with death by hanging, whether self-inflicted or judicial. It has certainly been recorded on a number of occasions after judicial hangings .... :eek:

[PAXboy]

Violent death does change/constrict bloodflows in the body. The electric chair also produces changes in the male body - probably also the female but not so noticeable, or with such (past) frequency for observation.

[dazdaz1]

PAXboy...... " The electric chair also produces changes in the male body" I'm curious, please tell more. If I think what your thinking:ok: I'm applying a/c>d/c leads now. Hope I'll be back soon:eek:

[PAXboy]

dazdaz1 Really! :rolleyes: What do you think this forum is? :=

Now, if I am to answer your question, how am I to do so without giving TightSlot heart failure - which is where this thread started ... :ugh:

OK. Basics and using proper dictionary language, not the sniggering behind the fuel bowser language. :p

You are probably aware that the male reproductive organ has blood flowing through it at all times, well for some of us anyway :cool:. It is caused to change it's (ahem) altitude by closing valves on the 'outlet' side. It is all to do with hydraulics but, unlike an aircraft, we only have one hydraulic power system.

Thus, with the outlet closed (well, almost as you still have to have blood circulating) and if your heart is still pumping, the fuselage will rotate and you can tell your associated female to make sure that she is ready for flight. :ok:

The 'command' that operates the outlet valves is complicated and can be affected by a number of things but that is not the issue here - use Wikipedia under erec**** dysfunction.

When a male is electrocuted, it can often cause the 'outlet valves' to spasm (along with the rest of the body, poor sod) and yet the heart is still pumping for a short time. The result is what some of you may recall from your far off teenage years. :E

It is also the case that some male animals (sheep in particular) can be stimulated to dispense a certain fluid (Nudge, Nudge ;) ;)) by electrical stimulation. This is part of a system for artifical insemination used in farming that enables a far more calculated and consistent breeding of sheep. A known breeding male is 'tapped' and this is then tested for potency and diluted with things like egg white, before being artificial placed into ewes that are in season - turkey baster style. :ooh:

The method of acquiring this material is the careful provision of a DC electrical current to the prostate gland of the hapless sheep. The sheep is restrained and a small probe with a conductive tip is placed into the rectum and thus against the prostrate. Around the front, a condom like device has been provided by the assisting Cabin Crew (sorry TS could not resist) and the low DC voltage is momentarily applied and matters proceed in the time honoured way ... This is related from memory as I have seen it done on a farm. :8

It therefore stands to reason that an unfortunate man being electrocuted (accidentally or on purpose) may have both a change in elevation and a discharge of a non-electrical type. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

I am reliably informed that the DC system works on human males and can be used for medical purposes when natural methods are not available. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

I have been told that some males use low DC voltage for exactly this purpose as a variation in their lives and find it rewarding. :mad: May I hasten to inform my readers that I have expressly NOT witnessed this process on anything other than sheep on the farm. :}

[herman the crab]

Why can't you pronounce death in flight?

A doctor or indeed in some countries a paramedic can pronounce death perfectly legally subject to certain criteria. If not you would be ethically and possibly legally required to continue CPR until on the ground and a (different/another) doctor pronouncing death.

In a previous life I was assured that a (in my case) UK registered aircraft counted as UK territory and as such was covered by UK law. How a UK doctor on a Singapore airline (for example) woks I don't know.

Certifying death (in the UK anyway) is a different matter however.

HTC

[radeng]

To add information (which you may not wish to know) to that which PAXboy provided, there has been some work done in Australia in using a radio controlled implant to enable suitable function. The place where I was working was consulted about using one of our integrated circuits for the radio. Engineers being what they are, you can imagine the ribald comments!

I don't think it got anywhere because of cost, size and possible battery lifetime problems.

[PAXboy]

"I'm sorry darling, my battery has never run out before ..." :sad: Not to mention, Where would you put the switch? Perhaps somewhere it can be easily reached by your flight companion? An that would only be the start of it, thanks radeng.

In order to avoid too much about the details there is:


Seeing that death has occured
Medically qualified pronouncement of death
Legal certification of death

As with so many other things to do with life and aircraft - it's complicated by being in international airspace and an a/c may land at it's native base with a dead native on board or arrive down the line with a native of a third country who was travelling alone. Etcetera!!

[Mark in CA]

For your edification:

10 Bodily Functions That Continue After Death (http://io9.com/5862418/10-bodily-functions-that-continue-after-death)

[PAXboy]

Thank you Mark in CA, there is one item on that list that I have never heard about - so I shall be asking my funeral friends!

With regards to digestion, the action of the juices and chemicals does continue, but obviously the action of peristalsis stops immediately. The bloating that occurs is due to the build up of gases however, that depends on the state of health of the individual at death and what they have eaten in the last 24 hours. For many folks that will be practically nothing. My father, as it happens, had just had a good lunch when his heart stopped!

[TightSlot]

Anyone else growing slightly weary of the more priapic aspects of all this?

[farci]

Anyone else growing slightly weary of the more priapic aspects of all this?I'm with you TS.

Anyone who wishes to pursue a morbid interest can be directed to the ominously named Live Leak website:
LiveLeak.com - Preparation of Human Remains for Transport

[Shack37]

Anyone else growing slightly weary of the more priapic aspects of all this?

And quite a few of the others!

[cojones]

SQ carry 2 types of body-bag: Type 1 for use up to 8 hours. Type 2 longer than 8 hours

[Shack37]

Anyone else growing slightly weary of the more priapic aspects of all this?


and along came "cojones"

Sorry, just leaving:uhoh:

[martinmax69]

A friend of mine did some part-time work at a funeral home.One elderly man 'groaned' and sat bulk up-right.It was the last time she worked there.After death it is amazing the number of men who do ejaculate.I was working with the Royal Coast Guard and had to retrieve 2 men who had drowned and yep, there they were in 'full-glory'.:eek:

[dazdaz1]

That makes sense martinmax69 I read that when the actor Errol Flynn died he was buried in a pyramid shaped coffin.

Having said that (open to all) how long does it take for the 'stiffly' to go flaccid? Surely it would not be respectable having a 'viewing' with the shroud raised a number of inches at the mid body point.:eek:

Daz