DeltaConnection carriers file a petition for one list [Archive]

CRJ200

19th Jul 2000, 23:45

Hmmm, sounds like you are very bitter about something that your airline pilot group allowed to happen in your past. Nobody is looking for a handout or a free ride here.

ASA/Comair have been flying aircraft with way more than 50 seats for a very long time now. They both had firm orders for the 70 seat RJ before Delta mainline bought them out. Delta's scope clause limits their subsidiaries equipment to less than 70 seats and are trying to take their 70 seaters away from them before they get them, thus limiting their careers.

The move for a merger does not imply that they are greedy or are looking for a date of hire merger or anything else for that matter.
It simply sets the ball rolling for talks. The Delta mainline MEC will not give the regional pilots one more red cent than they deserve. Also it will have to benefit all parties involved or it's doubtful that it will happen. So your comment regarding "Leapfrogging assasins" is undefined and undeserved.

Delta management have been pitting all 3 companies against each other and are starting to get the hang of it. This "whipsawing" must stop. This integration of the lists, however it will be agreed upon will benefit all pilot groups involved. They will come out of this with as one big unified voice and one hell of an airline.

For more info see onealpa.com

Regards,

Airbubba

20th Jul 2000, 00:11

CALPA tried to shove one of these "farm club" deals down Air Canada's throat a couple of years ago, the AC pilots left CALPA and went inhouse to form ACPA. Don't think it will work at Delta...

It's been tried before at American, and Continental has some sort of flow through agreement with Continental Express.

Ironically, some of the Delta mainline pilots got their seniority through their date of hire at Ransome, a commuter that Pan Am bought before it went out of business. ALPA put the Ransome pilots on the Pan Am seniority list before the shutdown, put them on the A-scale and fenced them out of the F/E seat ahead of pilots hired by Pan Am.

Petergozinya

20th Jul 2000, 01:20

CRJ200, fine. Keep your 70 seaters. Keep your pay-rates. Keep your retirement. Keep your work rules. What do you need delta for? Enlighten me. I'm not bitter here a all. I've read on other forums where all the ASA/Comair guys want to "restore" the profession. So,...Do It. Leave DALPA out of it. You're the ones who didn't go on strike, lets hope TSA has the balls to do it. I don't work for Delta so I'm not up to speed on all the details, so sorry about that. Don't like the pay rates? STRIKE!

DeltaConnector

20th Jul 2000, 06:26

Being stapled onto the DAL seniority list would be a win/win for all parties. I doubt whether any other form of integration would be entertained by DALPA. One list is a good idea, but first it needs to be feasable.

Not to mention, I don't want to go through my entire career at DAL as "the ASA guy who stole my seniorty"

Airbubba

20th Jul 2000, 06:36

>>Not to mention, I don't want to go through my entire career at DAL as "the ASA guy who stole my seniorty"<<

What career at DAL? Many of the pilots at the commuters don't meet Delta's (lowered) standards (e.g. college, Baptist, no Corvette <g> ), would Delta have to take every commuter pilot that walked through the door under your imaginary plan? Somehow I don't think that's going to happen.

Apply, interview and come in through the front door...

DeltaConnector

20th Jul 2000, 17:45

That is exactly what I am doing, if you look at my post again, you will note that I don't enjoy the idea of going in the back door, especially at a DAL pilot's expense. I would be satisfied with a staple job, which would benefit all parties.

As for not meeting the lowered standards, those are a sliding scale, and have more to do with "who you know" that "what you know." I know this since I have 3 senior Captain writing me a letter just so I can meet those standards, which misteriously move from year to year.

That last thing I want to keep hearing about is how crummy our pilots are....we've yet to kill anyone in more than 22 years due to a pilot error. Even DAL, UAL, AMR, et al can't say that.

And don't tell me they're bigger, we fly many more legs a day!

flite idol

20th Jul 2000, 19:04

The vast majority of regional airline pilots in the U.S do have the required credentials for the majors. However getting that elusive interview unless you are from a special interest, affermative action group or connected through your chums at the fighter wing, seems to be a lottery without rhyme or reason. Having said that if AMR, UAL or DAL could get away with paying $50/hour to fly the 777, they would and in a hearbeat too. The first major that makes a realistic, equitable and workable agreement to ensure career progression for its subsidiary regional aircrew will benefit greatly for at least two reasons. Like it or not the regionals are expanding at a greater rate than the big boys, the RJ`s are creating markets that did not exist a few short years ago. Crewing these aircraft is already becoming a problem, the first regional that offers a clear career path will be more attractive to the dwindling suitably qualified pilot supply, thus ensuring their expansion at the expense of the competition. Secondly despite what we may like to believe, airlines are run by the marketing departments. If there is an agreement in place that satisfies the 777 captain down to the TP f/o, then the deployment of the regional fleet can be done without the current act of congress, so to speak and the need to comply with various scope clauses. This would again give a great advantage over the competition. Having said all that appropriate safeguards need to be in place so that when one does progress to that "job at the major," it is still worth having!.

Airbubba

20th Jul 2000, 19:32

>>That is exactly what I am doing, if you look at my post again, you will note that I don't enjoy the idea of going in the back door, especially at a DAL pilot's expense. I would be satisfied with a staple job, which would benefit all parties.<<

You are asking DAL to hire you without the interview, physical and the rest of the dog and pony show required of the thousands of other applicants. Your imaginary "staple job" would give away the seniority of thousands of Delta pilots hired legitimately in the future. Delta has learned bitter lessons about the "I got mine, pull the ladder up, it doesn't affect me" attitude from the B-scale and the furlough. Once your staple job is done, your or your colleagues will sue to get your commuter date of hire at DAL, it's been done before, regular as clockwork.

>>As for not meeting the lowered standards, those are a sliding scale, and have more to do with "who you know" that "what you know." I know this since I have 3 senior Captain writing me a letter just so I can meet those standards, which misteriously move from year to year.<<

If you're so sure you meet the standards, get an interview, get hired and staple yourself to the bottom of the DAL list like everyone else instead of demanding a handout...

Petergozinya

20th Jul 2000, 20:40

Flt idle, you wrote: "Crewing these aircraft is already becoming a problem". Sounds like an opportunity to me. Its called leverage. Restore the profession. Strike. Focus on what can be done by yourselves, instead of threatening others.

" A wise man will make more opportunity than he finds "

Petergozinya

20th Jul 2000, 20:46

Damn flood gates......

How would you justify the windfall for the others near the bottom of the seniority lists at comair and asa? A Delta seniority number with 1000 hrs TT? Delta is hiring 75-80 pilots a month. In less than 3 years virtually every Comair/asa dude could be there, right?

DeltaConnector

20th Jul 2000, 20:51

AirBubba,

You appear confused. I never said I wasn't going to, nor able to get hired the old fashioned way. I am saying that when I do, I still plan to make sure that DAL flies all DAL passengers on DAL airplanes with DAL pilots.

As it is now, ASA and Comair are flying DAL passengers on DAL planes with non-DAL pilots(at 1/3 the pay). Anyone with an education can tell you that over the long term this will have the effect of eroding this profession and reducing it to the LCD (Lease Common Denominator).

Over time DAL management (and congress) will erode scope language and soon all or most of the domestic (ASA/Comair fly to Mexico and Canada already) flying may happen under a different seniority list than that of DALPA. All we need is a slow down in the economy and they will approach DALPA with a concession, for moving some MD-88's or 737 to ASA and Comair, in return for some unsaid promise. Or worse yet, scope will be struck down in the courts and we'll see 777's with ASA on the tail at $130/hr. You say never, well management is patient.

You need to get off your high horse, put your ego aside, and look at the big picture.

This nonsense about how hard it was getting the job is silly. I was hired at ASA with 1100 TT/ 300 Multi. Today they are hiring 300TT 50 Multi time from ERAU.... At DAL the medial changes from time to time. I have 20/15 vision, yet I know of several pilots with less TT than my meager 2500 who were hired at DAL with less than 20/20? I know of pilots hired at DAL with little or no PIC time, so much for selective(ness) & so much for the medical?

In the 60's UAL hired pilots off the street, in the 70's many airlines were hiring 1200hr pilots into 727's. UAL has hired women with less than 500 hrs who are now widebody captains.

As for DAL. Like I said before, is who you know and not what you know....as exemplified by my own situation with my friends at DAL writing me letter of rec, with out them my same self would somehow be "unqualified."

Look past your nose, and look at the next 30 years. Because I have more than 30 years in front of me in this profession and I don't wanted it eroded to the LCD.

ONE AIRLINE / ONE LIST.

PS Who do you fly for? Just curious. You know I'm ASA.

[This message has been edited by DeltaConnector (edited 20 July 2000).]

Petergozinya

20th Jul 2000, 23:06

Scope prevents anything with more that 70 seats being flown by others not on the DAL seniority list. If you show up for a gun fight, at least have a gun. Now are you saying management/congress will impose their will and circumvent the collective bargaining process, thus negating the railway labor act and along the way dropping md-80's and 777's in your lap? At 130$/hr.? Hmmmm. Scabs do work for less. Are you saying this is the future? Sure sounds like it. Why haven't you guys taken a stand and withheld you services? You wouldn't need to be threatening to DAL boys.

Looking past my nose now, with hiring at most majors exceeding 75/month, it doesn't matter who you do or do not know,... be patient. Instead of predicting 130$/777 captain jobs. The ME generation in you is screaming loud and clear.

Flathatter

20th Jul 2000, 23:32

This thing has already happened at SAS! Unbelievably, it was the mainline union that negotiated it, and made it retroactive, thus backstabbing everyone of their own recent newhires.

DeltaConnector

21st Jul 2000, 01:47

Just so were clear here. I don't advocate $130/hr 777 jobs for a regional airline, and for that matter, no one at my company does. But as long as there are seperate pilot lists competing for jobs, the chance of it happening isn't impossible. The issue of Scope, is one which I believe will eventually be struck down in congress, as more and more pressure from the smaller regional airport/city authorities gain congressional clout.

I just want to keep all jobs at DAL, and completely remove the existance of ASA and Comair from the map. These companies are just shells for management to make extra margins on a given investment.

RRAAMJET

21st Jul 2000, 02:00

Delta Connector:

Your position seems a bit muddled....
One BIG factor that may throw a wrench into management's plans to undermine mainline contracts with RJ's is a lack of airspace. Think it isn't a problem? Go visit your nearest ARTCC on a wx-cluttered day; they will show you that the RJ's are now causing delays to 777s et al, by occupying airspace previously unused by commuters.
30 pax going 200 miles delay and take a slot for 300 pax going 6000 miles. It makes no sense...
That same RJ, delayed on a gate, delivers 30 pax to spend money in the Terminal franchises; the same gate could deliver 300 spenders.....
The pilot unions, the ATC union, and the airport operators need to get together to stop this nonsense, and ensure that growth continues at the majors, thus providing you, Deltaconnector, with your hard-worked for big-jet career.
Yes, I know that airline managers say a lot of major growth is fuelled by RJ feed.....
I take it with a pinch of salt. Their big prize is destroying our contracts, and they would be prepared to subsidize RJ's at low altitude to achieve that , if necessary.
The RJ's are ONLY profitable because of lower pay scales.....

Petergozinya

21st Jul 2000, 03:09

As it is now, ASA and Comair are flying DAL passengers on DAL planes with non-DAL pilots(at 1/3 the pay). Anyone with an education can tell you that over the long term this will have the effect of eroding this profession and reducing it to the LCD (Lease Common Denominator). (I think you meant 'least'). Hmmmm. DALPA has recognized it as an erosion to the profession, Yet, who is willingly doing the flying for 1/3 the $$$$?????? DALPA IS trying to restore the profession.

I just want to keep all jobs at DAL, and completely remove the existance of ASA and Comair from the map. These companies are just shells for management to make extra margins on a given investment. So merge together AKA AA Eagle, and vote with your feet. Restore the profession. Make your job a 100K plus job. The time has never been better. Pilot demand is out-stripping supply at the regionals LEVERAGE. This really is so simple. Funny, you guys can't manage a strike, yet are willing to burn the whole industry down with this bullsh*t.??

Roc

21st Jul 2000, 03:20

Whenever I hear plans of flowthrough agreements etc, I have to ask this question. " What about the military guys?" Do you feel that if they want a job at Delta, for ex, they would have to get hired at Comair and work their way up? or do you plan on instituting some system where they can bypass the regional pilots and go directly to mainline? I left the Air Force with 4400 hours of C-141 time, would this qualify me to "go direct to mainline?" Not trying to start a fight, just curious what people think?

Fo1011

21st Jul 2000, 03:32

I am sure that all the Captains at ASA/Comair will love to go to the bottom of the seniority list with the one year probation and the associated paycut. They have no dreams of somehow finding themselves climbing up the ladder based on some list integration sceme. And all those guys right out of college with 50 hours of ME time can just walk into Delta, bypassing the thousands of better qualified applicants who have worked theis butts off to get this far.
Hey boys and girls. Do the UPAS thing, fill out your application, and wait to be called alongside your peers. Just my 2 cents worth.

None

21st Jul 2000, 03:56

How does it work at Air Canada? Are the RJ pilots mainline Air Canada? How did it get that way?

Airbubba

21st Jul 2000, 05:08

>>How does it work at Air Canada? Are the RJ pilots mainline Air Canada? How did it get that way?<<

It doesn't work at Air Canada... CALPA attempted to put the "regionals" on the Air Canada seniority list with retroactive dates of hire (as at SAS). AC pilots took a stand against this nonsense and left CALPA to form ACPA. Many of the AC pilots had left the regionals to join AC, they would have watched their buddies from the commuters come over ahead of them, so they bolted CALPA and kept their list intact.

At least, until now of course, ACPA accepted mediation yesterday to solve issues including merger of the Candian pilots (represented by CALPA) onto their list.

Captain Bob

21st Jul 2000, 05:50

Roc,

Go straight for the Majors. Forget the commuters / Regionals. You have more than enough time to get hired by any Major US Airline. Commuter and Regional jobs are "Entry Level" Positions in Avaition.

Regards

DeltaConnector

21st Jul 2000, 07:01

Military pilot with 4400 hrs is atleas the same as civil with 5500 hrs. You can walk right into a major. But this isn't about jobs for pilots at the regionals, as much as it's about erosion of the profession.

Getting $100K for an RJ is a done deal. Comair will get atleast that in their contract, the problem is that as the 416 RJ's DAL orders make their way to ASA/Comair, the average pilot will be making less, by vertue of the fact that the average pilot will fly an RJ and not a 737 or larger.

Anyway, I start a 3 day trip in the morning, I'll catch up with you in 3 days.

Roc

21st Jul 2000, 16:21

Captain Bob,

Thanks for the advice, however, I did go straight to a very good major 6 years ago, and life is good. But back in 1994 when I was looking for a job, I applied to Continental Airlines and was told that I had to apply at CAL Express because at the time they had an integrated seniority list with CAL. Bottom line with a wife and 2 kids, house etc.. and 32years old, I felt I already paid my dues with Uncle Sam and wasnt ready to fly a Beech 1900 for 16,000 a year, so I didnt even consider CAL, and neither did any of my military buddies. I thought it was a bad idea for this reason. I understand CAL has changed this system, but if there are any CAL pilots in Pprune land let us know what you think.

Airbubba

22nd Jul 2000, 05:00

I can see where the commuter pilots would have a lot more enthusiasm for this deal than the Real Deltoids...

From aviationnow.com :

ASA, Comair, Delta Pilots
Ponder Union Merger

by Denise Marois

Pilots at Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines, both represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, want their unions to merge with Delta’s ALPA unit to keep management from whipsawing -- when management plays one union group against another. Unions also want to ensure that Delta’s pilot contract does not contain restrictions on regional jet operations that would hurt pilots at Comair and ASA.

About 250 pilots turned up at a rally in Cincinnati yesterday in support of the seniority list merger. Comair ALPA Master Executive Council Chairman J.C. Lawson says a merger of the seniority lists would protect pilot careers at all three airlines. “Any artificial restrictions placed upon an airline by another is not in the spirit of what ALPA is all about,” told the rally. Merging seniority lists would do away with artificial limits on flying for Comair or ASA pilots, Lawson says.

On Tuesday Comair and ASA pilots filed a joint resolution with ALPA International asking for implementation of the union’s merger and fragmentation policy among the three carriers. The resolution notes that pilots at ASA and Comair could lose more than $200 million in pay and benefits over the next five years if proposed changes in the Delta pilot scope clause restricting RJ operations growth go through.

The petition also notes that ALPA is faced with an “irreconcilable conflict of interest” in bargaining for scope protections for Delta pilots and for ASA and Comair pilots. It is “inappropriate for ALPA to support any scope language that would harm ASA and compare pilots to the benefit of the mainline Delta pilots,” the petition adds. ALPA spokesman John Mazor had not yet seen the petition as of yesterday.

The push to merge comes as Delta’s ALPA negotiates a contract that likely will include tighter limits on RJ expansion. Lawson said that with separate contracts, Delta is free to work one pilot group against another. “With one corporate owner and three contracts, it does not give ALPA the clout to deal with one pilot group and one contract,” Lawson notes. All those conflicts "disappear if we are merged as one pilot group,” he adds

RRAAMJET

22nd Jul 2000, 08:01

Just to clarify my earlier thread....

Whilst I sympathise and admire the enthusiasm of ALL the pilots who wish to move from the regionals to the majors, the relaxation of Scope would be nothing short of a DISASTER for their careers, and could conceivably immediatly reduce hiring at the majors.
DeltaConnector: I think you understand that, but I can also see the point of your collegues who, for whatever reason, wish to remain at the regionals....Scope does not help them any.

XL5

22nd Jul 2000, 09:47

Representation of both regional and major carrier pilots by the same union is nothing more than conflict of interest and actually provides management with additional ammunition for use in the ongoing war against the scope clause. It would be better for the continued health of the industry (read pay and working conditions for pilots) if regional flight crews regardless of the logo painted on the aircraft were represented by a different union to that at the mainline. It would be a disaster to drag down mainline working conditions in order to bump up pay at the regionals, yet this is what will happen unless a strong scope clause stays in place and a sharp distinction is made between the regional and mainline elements of the combined operation.

I have flown commuter aircraft providing hub feed for a major airline with the associated logo painted on my shorthaul spamcan . This did not and should not entitle me to any flow through nor merging of seniority lists. Those seeking employment with the mainline for the enhanced pay and conditions on offer should fill out an application form and subsequently undergo the interview process where they may or may not be successful in securing a place for themselves at the bottom of the seniority list.

Last but not least, remember that the mainline has much to offer simply because the pilot group is prepared to and probably has been on strike to achieve a desirable employment package. I fail to recall when the last regional group walked out of the flight deck and took to the picket lines.

Corporate Yank

27th Jul 2000, 01:56

Just a thought...How would this be handled if ASA/Comair bought out DAL???-CY

------------------
*deep inhale* I LOVE the smell of jet-a in the morning..

LAVDUMPER

27th Jul 2000, 03:18

(I excerpted this from my own previous thread):

Having just spoken with a Delta 737 captain, I highly doubt the Delta pilots would allow any sort of "date-of-hire" integration of seniority lists. In fact, this pilot seemed very upset at the regional pilots and their apparent over-exuberance (super confidence).

To quote him verbatim: "They'll have to pry the gun away from my cold, dead hand before I let any regional pilot jump ahead of me in line after how hard I have worked to get here!"

He claimed that the Delta pilots would likely quit ALPA before they allowed that type of integration.

I know that Delta's management will most likely use one pilot group against the other(the so-called "whipsaw"), but that is almost commonplace nowadays. American and Continental do the same with their regional feeders. Why should the Delta regional carriers expect any different?

I acknowledge that many of the regional pilots are highly skilled and professional, but do they really think Delta pilots are going to stand by and allow their list to be "infiltrated" by so-called "backdoor bandits" - quoting yet another Delta pilot. My bet is that the Delta pilots will quit ALPA before they allow that to happen.

Any of the ASA or Comair pilots think the Delta pilots will rollover or cede to your integration ideas? Any thoughts?

------------------
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed pilot is king!

Airbubba

27th Jul 2000, 03:24

>>He claimed that the Delta pilots would likely quit ALPA before they allowed that type of integration.<<

Not entirely far fetched, this is what happened at Air Canada with CALPA...

DeltaConnector

27th Jul 2000, 18:53

DALPA offeded a flow-through, and DeltaConnection said no. What do you all think about "Flow-through?"

Any EAGLE or COEX types for comment?

Roc

27th Jul 2000, 20:31

I really don't intend to offend anyone here, but why such a huge controversy concerning flowthrough or integration? Why not try to raise your pay scales at ASA/Comair to a suitable level through your union. This whole flowthrough idea leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As a military pilot can I jump ahead of ASA/Comair and go directly to mainline? if YES, than wouldn'tASA and Comair pilots resent this? If NO, than how would Delta's mgmt feel about the loss of any chance of hiring highly skilled military pilots, especially given Delta's history of hiring only military types in the not to distant past. Bottom line, I always say the aviation business is alot like sports, you dont make the big bucks till you make it to the big leagues, whether its fair or not, but ASA/Comair are trying to say if they make it to the Yankee's single A farm team, they should be guarenteed a shot at the majors cause their in the Yankee org. I don't think that will ever fly.

DeltaConnector

27th Jul 2000, 21:19

In many countries, like France where a personal friend of mine was hired as an AirBus FO with some 400TT they also hire military pilots with much more time.
So this isn't about where you learn to fly, skill is not a given for military, anymore than personality (a key in hiring pilots).
At ASA we have F-15 pilots (retired) F-16, F-18, etc....as well has military propdrivers, we have a lot of helocopter guys who needed fixed wing time, so it's not all about "experienc" 2000hrs of 121 experience at a regional airline is enough for anyone to take the right seat on a MD80.

As for bringing wages up at the regionals, this is a difficult process since the various mediations boards are always going to see them as "training grounds, and stepping stones to the majors." which to a degree they are. So with that said, the managements of the various airlines have the ability to grow these "regional" airlines and keep the overall level of wages down.

It's not as simple as just going on strike, the NMB would send you back to work with a 5% raise!

I say give us a good flow through(with no loopholes), and hire some from with in the regional and some from outside (50/50 ratio) and when hiring is slow, then hire them all at the regional.

Ignition Override

28th Jul 2000, 10:31

This is just one perspective, and I have nothing against regionals operating certain numbers of jets (i.e. 69 seats or less etc.). I have not been with regionals since the mid-80s, and sympathize with those regional pilots who desire to fly a jet someday, whether grey with a red tail, or red, white, blue or even silver...and finally earn more respect from the smug, ill-mannered (this often includes the successful-), ignorant passengers who lack any solid appreciation for the reliability/efficiency of 'prop-jets'. And when did any line pilot, who is not a negotiator or mgmt/evaluation pilot, have control over which aircraft is acquired by his employer?

As for hiring at the majors, where things have changed since the booming mid-80s, and were always difficult to stereotype or understand, i.e. some personnel (human resource) managers, with no flight training OR experience (except with silk ties and brown-nosing) were allowed to 'weed out' a guy or gal, simply based on some subjective personal reason, having absolutely nothing to do with flying abilities/experience.

Recently on Pprune, regarding necessary PIC turbine hours, someone posted info from United Airlines' recent flight experience requirements, which stated that the computer accepting data from pilot applications did NOT distinguish between turboprop and turbofan PIC hours. And so, IF this is also the case with other US major airlines' pilot requirements (other than where personal recomendations are an advantage), then the assumed advantage of flying a regional jet as Captain versus a Beech 1900, EMB-120 or ATR means nothing, as far as numbers go. The regional jet job might be used on turboprop routes.

Or, as at Delta, where their MEC (and its flock of sheep, mostly in ATL, who drank the company kool-aid without question) finally woke up to the sobering fact that their previous contracts had the loosest scope language in the US industry, in theory some COMAIR pilots probably won't get hired at Delta, since the CRJ already flies many previous Delta 737/MD-80 routes. Maybe they will be fortunate at other majors, partly thanks to tighter scope language.

Fighting yesterday's battle today can never recover those who have already been lost.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 28 July 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 28 July 2000).]

Petergozinya

30th Jul 2000, 22:27

Or, as at Delta, where their MEC (and its flock of sheep, mostly in ATL, who drank the company kool-aid without question) finally woke up to the sobering fact that their previous contracts had the loosest scope language in the US industry, in theory some COMAIR pilots probably won't get hired at Delta, since the CRJ already flies many previous Delta 737/MD-80 routes. Maybe they will be fortunate at other majors, partly thanks to tighter scope language.

Fighting yesterday's battle today can never recover those who have already been lost

Amen brother.

Petergozinya

30th Jul 2000, 23:07

Delta Connector
As for bringing wages up at the regionals, this is a difficult process since the various mediations boards are always going to see them as "training grounds, and stepping stones to the majors." which to a degree they are. So with that said, the managements of the various airlines have the ability to grow these "regional" airlines and keep the overall level of wages down.

It's not as simple as just going on strike, the NMB would send you back to work with a 5% raise!

I've seen things go deep into left field, but this one takes the cake. Anything to substantiate your claim? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif :rolleyes:

Hung start

31st Jul 2000, 20:14

My, Flathatter. You´re back. Thought that you had changed your name!!
F.Y.I. Mainline union has always included rep´s from the Commuter dept. And I haven´t met anyone, apart from the "famous few" pilots, that don´t agree with the deal!
"Backstabbing everyone"" is NOT what everyone thinks that happened. You know so much about what happens at SAS, so you must be.... nooooe, not with what you said on the other thread. A rejected SC maybe?... noooee. What then.
To the rest of you, sorry that I hijacked the thread for a while, just letting you know that there are ways to "merge" lists, where 99% are happy. The last 1% will bitch no matter what happens!!

redtail

1st Aug 2000, 03:37

The Railway Labor Act needs to be changed. It takes away from the union and drags out negotiations far too long.

DeltaConnector

1st Aug 2000, 04:11

Peter,

what do you not understand?

The company I fly for has 1280 pilots, 1000 of them have been there less than 6 years, and only 100 of them have more than 15 years. I am #489 out of 1280+(30/month) and I've been there 2.5 years. Upgrade on the E-120 is 11 months, ATR 2 yrs, CRJ 3 years....most 4-5 year guys are either gone to the majors, or will be with in months.

What part of stepping stone do you need explained?

And do you know what the NMB is? (I know what they told us regarding our last contract being the best any "regional" airline will ever see!)

You make mainline pilots seem very out of touch with your question. Yet I happen to know many, and they aren't soo out of touch.

Oh, and another thing. Last contract for ASA, the strike vote for retirement was 9%.

Does that sound like a career minded pilot group to you?

Holodek7

1st Aug 2000, 11:01

Airbubba and Peter...
There are some very reasonable positions being advanced here.I guess that your intransigence is a remnant of a previous state of affairs, but a wholly owned subsidiary is different than a simple codesharing partner.

You are saying that you are opposed to an 'end-tail' merger(no ill effect on the current DAL list) of the lists based on a perception of a 'back-door'.To deny that Comair and ASA pilots are employed by DAL now, is to give licence to all sorts of shenanigans by management...'whipsaw' comes to mind, particularly at the bottom of the DAL seniority/equipment list where there is most likely to be an 'overlap' in the type of flying and nature of the jobs (vis a vis the regionals).

You are also saying that you are against a merged list(end-tail), in order to protect slots for DAL pilots YET to be hired?...And all in the name of an interview/medical process?...This is an embittered logic. Anyone who has been in this business for a long time knows what a poor determinant of a candidates suitability an interview is.Didn't you get briefed by your buds (who got there first),as to the content of all the various interviews?
If you have confidence in the ability of your training dept. to weed out the 'shrubs'.then you don't have to worry about the denigration of standards.

Think of the benefits of a unified pilot list.Solidarity at negotiation time, and the company will also be able to manage their resources as they see fit,as market forces require, without having to also fight a disparate, fractious, pilot groups...win-win!
CHEERS!

[This message has been edited by Holodek7 (edited 05 August 2000).]

Ace Rimmer

1st Aug 2000, 12:18

Ok guys lets have a visit to hotel reality, If they could, the majors would transfer ALL their routes to their regional affiliates - Why? Cos regionals have a lower cost base.

revenue X - lower cost base = larger profit

Naturally, the big guys would like to see the end of scope - can you blame them? The boys in Atlanta would cream their jeans. Get their hands on those shiny new CRJ700/900s ERJ170/190s for a start - then what the hell, if the market demands put 737s, 757s "Ah hear them limeys over 't BA run 777s on a 300nm route, then there's them ole boys out in Japan with them 74SRs goddamn"
Remember, the suits worth is measured by the bottom line after all.
So never mind all this "I bust my nuts for x years getting where I am only to have some young wet-behind-the-ears puppy get hired into the mainline before me" stuff, the question you need to ask is "Is it better for my long term earning potential to have the lists merge (and possibly make it easier for scope to be relaxed or abandoned altogether) or not? Frankly my dears, anything else is just bulls@it.

Petergozinya

1st Aug 2000, 19:15

Redtail:
The Railway Labor Act needs to be changed. It takes away from the union and drags out negotiations far too long.

Amen.

Delta C. You obviously don't understand the cencept you're pushing. The NMB is the National Mediation Board. They provide, when requested , a mediator. A mediator does nothing but try to "split the baby". They have no authority whatsoever to send anyone back to work. They can't even order anyone into a locked room to solve their differences. What they can do is "suggest", or proffer, both parties submit to "binding arbitration", meaning, argue your case, and let someone else decide for you. The NMB is nothing more than that. The concept you allude to has been used only once in recent times, with the AA pilot strike, when Clinton sent them back to work. P.E.B. stands for Presidential Emergency Board. Loss of AA lift, to the tune of 20% of U.S. capacity, IS/WAS a threat to the economy. Not to mention APA had no AFL-CIO affiliation... Whats the combined market share of ASA/Comair? Probably wouldn't even make the newspapers.
What part of stepping stone do you need explained? I need the part explained of how we're trading the stepping stone concept for a big 3 seniority number. I understand the whipsawing going on. Didn't say I agreed with it. And if guys are moving to the majors after 4 years.......? I view you (the ones pushing) as the bunch of opportunists that you are. If you could only get 9% of the pilot group to strike for a pension, what percentage did you get to persue a seniority integration? 100%? Sounds like a career minded pilot group to me. Just grab a number.
You make mainline pilots seem very out of touch with your question. Yet I happen to know many, and they aren't soo out of touch. Refresh my memory. What was my question?

Holodek7
You are saying that you are opposed to an 'end-tail' merger(no ill effect on the current DAL list) of the lists based on a perception of a 'back-door'.To deny that Comair and ASA pilots aren't employed by DAL now, is to give licence to all sorts of shenanigans by management...'whipsaw' comes to mind, particularly at the bottom of the DAL seniority/equipment list where there is most likely to be an 'overlap' in the type of flying and nature of the jobs (vis a vis the regionals). Never said I was opposed to a staple. I'm challenging you. Show me where I said that. Delta Connector has alluded to the impotence of the pilot group in question with statments like, 'congress' won't allow it, scope will be eroded..........passing the buck. Over time DAL management (and congress) will erode scope language and soon all or most of the domestic (ASA/Comair fly to Mexico and Canada already) flying may happen under a different seniority list than that of DALPA. Fact is, the RLA provides the tools necessary to FIX this yourselves.

I'm against a pure flow through, whereas EVERY guy gets a number. Don't try and twist my statements. Solidarity at negotiations time? OK, lets see some. Show us what ya got.

ACE RIMMER. Bad info. RJ's cost per seat mile exceed larger types every time. Labor packages are much lower........

Cheers!

[This message has been edited by Petergozinya (edited 01 August 2000).]

DeltaConnector

1st Aug 2000, 20:07

Peter,

The question was: You wanted me to substantiate my claim that ASA is a stepping stone and that the NMB didn't tell us that our contract was as good as it gets for a "regional," if I understood you right.

I answered both:

A. We are all career minded, towards a job at the majors and not ASA, thus ASA will continue to be a stepping stone for most of us, and thus the wages there will stagnate due to a lack of interest and pilot involvement. This will lend to management's ability to grow the place while keeping productivity high and REPLACING DAL flying with point to point RJ50 70 and larger!
If nothing changes, this will happen over the next 10 years, I'll bet my career on it!

B. The NMB told our negotiations committee members that they weren't going to get a better deal than we got (which was crap! Especially on the work rules front), and that the alternative was a strike. Which brings me to the other question. I refer you to my point "A," the strike vote on most items was not a majority as most of us don't give a "$@%@$^% about ASA, we are aiming for DAL,UAL,AMR etc...

Do you see a pattern?

And oh BTW, most ASA pilots didn't know anything about the PID until the day it was announced. Most ASA pilot wish that the wording had been more friendly, but you are dealing with people(MEC) who see DALPA's scope talks as an afront to them. Most ASA pilots don't expect special treatment by the DAL MEC, staple is what the majority of us find to be a fair solution. Finally, I personally have a high chance at an interview with in the year, at DAL and UAL and will take the first offer I get, and then, will maintain my position that we NEED one list! Staple job!

Am I clear?

Holodek7

1st Aug 2000, 22:57

Peter...
If you will look,you will see that I addressed my post to you and Airbubba.Sorry for that, but as you can see I have few posts,and typing skills to boot.It was easier for me to address to both of you,because of your 'like-minded' vitriol.
My post was not meant to be a point by point rebuttal as much as a desire to find out the nature of your opposition while advancing my thoughts on why it would be good.

I'm neither DAL,ASA,or Comair, so I really know little about their wages and work conditions.I agree with the ideal that in 'order to preserve the profession'the regionals should have looked in the mirror first and made a bigger effort to improve their own lot, but the reality is that will only happen during economic down cycles, with no hiring.During a boom cycle,people vote with their feet instead of the strike ballot.Particularly if the company(s) involved are generally viewed as only a 'stepping-stone' by a large portion (read junior or low years of service) of their membership.This won't change.

If you don't take the opportunity to fix this now, it will be like wiping your ass with a hula-hoop...'The sh*t never quits!'.You will always be fighting over scope issues.Your negotiating team will have to waste time on this every contract.

My point?...Instead of looking at why you DON'T want it to happen (windfall gains etc),why not try to see the advantages in it, especially, long-term.Comair and ASA (because of their young workforce) need the stability and strength of the DAL group to help them help themselves.All will benefit(think longterm).

There are many ways to integrate a list, and surely one can be found to meet the needs of all (and certainly not affecting the current DAL list a bit!).
CHEERS!

RRAAMJET

2nd Aug 2000, 08:23

The BIG question that Peter et al are alluding to, ( and a lot of the guys driving hiring ) is:

Where do you put the military guy with 5000 heavy or jet hours, or someone leaving TWA, for example, with UMPTEENTHOUSAND jet hours?

No one in their right minds would put them below a new ERAU grad at the bottom of a stapled list. Like it or not, DAL, UAL, AA are looking for these people first and foremost. I know , I work with Recruitment occasionally. We'll take 757 PIC over EMB-120 P2 anytime. Fact: they're less likely to have a washout. Have a look at our last 3 year's hiring stats/ fails...what background/experience did they have? This is an extremely expensive business....The fact is, the military/other big jet guys& gals are a sure bet. No explaining to have to do to the Chief Pilot.....

Right now, we're chronically short, looking to put bums in seats asap, with minimal chance of a sim/oral bust. New hires are going straight to the 767 International right now - I don't care what you think, DC, a new grad out of Comair Acad would be a training risk in this situation ( through no fault of his own...). Don't get me wrong: the top of Comair/ ASA would be a blessing in this situation - they've got plenty of experience ( look at the Eagle flow-throughs ), but what if the bottom guy was able to suddenly bid and hold the 767? Now what?

DeltaC and the rest need to understand that a system would have to worked out with a mainline start point for these non-ASA/ Comair people. What are you left with? A flow-through by any other name with some direct entrants thrown in.

MainlineAtlasFO

2nd Aug 2000, 09:26

All a very interesting discussion, I agree with a little of both sides...

But I agree more that no 'list merger' would accomplish the desired results for the RJ guys.
Go the UPAS way, get your letters of recommendation and use the time till you're called to learn all you can about their interview process.

I left the military with over 6000 hours of C-141 and C-17 time (still in the reserves though to make Atlas livable) and I wait for the Delta letter, the UAL call and the AA letter/call. It's been right at 12 months so they should start for a WASPY guy like me.
While I wait, I study, talk to my buds who are there and keep myself as sharp as possible till I get the opportunity to 'talk my way' into that career job.
Best of luck to all you regional guys, The ones I've jumpseated with were very professional, I'd be happy to FO for any of you at the 'bigs'!

JRF

2nd Aug 2000, 16:19

A PAX here who flies far too often on ASA and TSA. Now, how can you pilots believe a word management tells you? Look how they run the airlines. I find it hard to believe you still fly for ASA or TSA. The operations division in Atlanta need to go back to school and learn how to read and write, let alone speak English. You think management cares at all about you? They certainly don't care at all about the PAX. And the senior pilots at DL who want to protect their seniority, I can understand why. Operations at DL are well run and "oh dear" if they take on the any of the problems from ASA/TSA. If I were you guys/gals at ASA/TSA, I would try and get all I could get knowing that management does not really care at all about you or us passenger, just the bottom line. If I were the main line old time DL pilots, I would fight you tooth and nail to keep the mess you have to deal with every day far away from me. There you have it, a classic battle. Who is right and who is wrong? You will have to find the middle of the road and I really don;t care. just so long as you try and fix the horrible operations of ASA/TSA. "Sorry it took us 3 hours to determine that the equipment was actually already at the gate and ready to board!"

DeltaConnector

2nd Aug 2000, 17:23

JRF - AMEN BROTHER!

As for hiring high time pilots, I agree that they should go right to the mainline, while a ratio 50/50 are hired from the "regional." Call that a flow-through, I don't care. The fact is that there needs to be a career tie to both, since the "regional" is where the growth is, and we need to check managements whipsaw with a unified pilot group.

PS I have my 3 letters of rec AT DAL, and only need some more flight time to add to my 2500TT and 200PIC before I get the call. When I do, my tune will not change.

JRF

24th Aug 2000, 09:37

Looks like things are heating up again. Does DL management care about anyone? It seems with the new FF 2001 rules the PAX are unhappy, the pilots must be fed up, what is DL really up to?
http://www.aviationnow.com/TwoShare/getPage?sid=7743873123822960136

Turtlenest

25th Aug 2000, 03:40

Seems as if memories are very dim at Delta. I remember the ALPA fragmentation policy trumpeted by Hank Duffy (then ALPA president and DL pilot) to the Eastern Pilot group. "Fight the fight, get rid of Lorenzo, and if, per chance, your airline goes away in the battle, don't worry, because the ALPA Fragmentatin Policy will protect you - the crews will go with the airplanes." NOT. Delta ended up with a rather large bunch of Eastern aircraft, exactly 2 scab pilots, and a very big Christmas bonus. If the connectors can get on the DL list, fine. And as stated in other posts, you really do want DL pilots flying DL planes, because pretty soon you all mght be working for connector pay. That is all.

mtb

26th Aug 2000, 02:32

The way I see it, one seniority list is the way it should be at Delta or when any major wants to run a subsiary airline. It should be clear from the beginning that if Delta wants to own their subsidiaries, then Delta pilots will be doing the flying. Even if that means taking a loss because a Delta captain on the RJ can not be paid less than a Delta heavy jet FO. As far as scope clauses go, I do not think the one company should regulate how many RJs the smaller company flies. It should be contractually agreed on that United, for example, can take any route away at any time from their Express partner. This will keep it straight forward that the RJs are developing the route for something larger someday. If growth continues the way forecasters predict eventually RJs will lose these routes to Boeings and Airbusses. But if United or Delta or whichever company does not like that a regional is making such large profits, then come to the table with enough money and be prepared to pay the consequences. ie one pilot group per airline
I can see the problem though and simpithize with those pilots that want a second career (military to civilian or corporate to major). This will be a growing problem and pilots will have to realize this situation early on in their careers. It would make me sick, if I was a colonel or general and then was told that I was going to have to become an RJ FO before I was able to fly heavies. (I say RJ FO because I do not think that a major would dare own a turboprop in this day and age.) That is just my opinion and I look forward to hearing any questions or comments. Thanks.

RRAAMJET

26th Aug 2000, 19:47

MTB:

Do not be fooled by the claim that the RJ's will grow the routes for the Heavies. Since deregulation the big 3 have operated a hub and spoke system to fill the big toys - the RJ's offer a way around the hubs, with lower pay and benefits and less hub congestion.

Example:

Situation today

3 RJ's 1 RJ flies 50 pax LBB - DFW
1 RJ flies 50 pax AMA - DFW
1 RJ flies 50 pax MID - DFW

1 757 then flies 150 pax DFW - Nashville

Situation if SCOPE clauses are got rid of:

3 RJ's 1 RJ flies 50 pax LBB-Nashville
1 RJ flies 50 pax AMA-Nashville
1 RJ flies 50 pax MID-Nashville

1 757 PARKED in desert
3 less major-pay jobs for DeltaConnector and his buddies; management bonuses all round.

Think about it......

Petergozinya

27th Aug 2000, 08:15

Oh, so you're subbing the Dallas hub for a Nashville hub? You're example makes no sense. The money for the big three is in the front section and all the bells and whistles associated with mainline product. DAL has the ability to do exactly what you propose today. Why hasn't it happened? The F/C section on a non-mainline jet has only been done by Mesaba. Competitively speaking, the RJ's (non mesaba) would lose every time. BIG time. Do you really think something like that would work? Hmmm. Now lets see. I'm Joe businessman. I have a choice to go on a big airplane or a little airplane. I fly once a week. I pay through the nose (translation-bread and butter for the the company). I can go nonstop on a flying sardine can that I can't even stand up to take a **** in, (and I'm 5'7") or I can get a F/C upgrade (because I paid...well, my company paid through the nose) and hang in the 'club' until boarding time..... Oh God. I could go on and on and on about this. Sorry can't see that one happening.

[This message has been edited by Petergozinya (edited 27 August 2000).]

flite idol

27th Aug 2000, 09:20

RAAMJET, I think I understand what you are trying to say. However for that logic to be valid all of the 50 pax flying LBB-DFW, MAF-DFW and AMA-DFW would have to be connecting to the DFW-BNA flight. This senario is remote to say the least unless there was a free beer and barbeque reunion for West Texans at the Grand Ole Opry. Assuming you are an AA pilot, do you think the APA TA will ratify.? Probably no need to ask.! All the best.....

RRAAMJET

28th Aug 2000, 01:31

Peter: you've missed the point completely. Yes, I could have made a better example, but I was trying to keep it simple. Yes, our research here shows that Joe business-man at the outport would prefer ANYTHING to the winter chaos at the big hubs caused by airspace congestion ( primarily, my ATC manager neighbour tells me, because RJ's are now operating off the same runways as the heavies, and using the same upper airspace that the props didn't use to use....).
Like it or not, HUB BYPASS operations by RJ's are a very real threat to your career.

Your point about F/C is well made - look at the Legend /AA fight out of DAL (both all-f/c).

Idol: I'm not sure now what the result will be.... very mixed opinions on the flightdeck.
It's going to have a huge effect either way...let's hope it's not acrimonious, the travelling public have had quite enough for one year.

Airbubba

29th Aug 2000, 22:24

>>Seems as if memories are very dim at Delta. I remember the ALPA fragmentation policy trumpeted by Hank Duffy (then ALPA president and DL pilot) to the Eastern Pilot group. "Fight the fight, get rid of Lorenzo, and if, per chance, your airline goes away in the battle, don't worry, because the ALPA Fragmentatin Policy will protect you - the crews will go with the airplanes." NOT. Delta ended up with a rather large bunch of Eastern aircraft, exactly 2 scab pilots, and a very big Christmas bonus.<<

Yep, that's exactly how I remember it as well. Hank Duffy's airline benefited more from the Eastern strike than any of the other carriers. "Don't worry son, the union will take care of you..."

Petergozinya

29th Aug 2000, 23:15

Like it or not, HUB BYPASS operations by RJ's are a very real threat to your career.

"HUB BYPASS" = Job loss. Hmmm, OK, maybe. Buzz words, buzz words, buzz words.

So, when someone floats an example than works, I'll be scared. Hasn't happened yet. Delta has all the tools, as does Continental. 50 seats will never kill a 757 in a market that supports a 757. Never happen. 757 wins every time, in every respect.

Alpine Flyer

1st Sep 2000, 10:56

The only way to get away with whipsawing would be to do ALL of a company's (or holding company's) flying on ONE seniority list.

If the majors had not "discarded" turboprop flying as "below them" when it started, there would be no need for scope protection today.

It is not gospel that an RJ captain MUST earn more than a 747 copilot. There is a european airline that has "regional" captains and "longhaul" copilots at (about) the same pay rate, so it's a matter of choice if you prefer long sectors as SIC or short ones as PIC.

The difficult thing is how to change from the present system to a One-List system. Pilots who have flown for the subsidiary for a long time might find it hard to accept that they'll join the tail end of the major's seniority list, while major's pilots find it unacceptable to have anyone jump ahead of them. On the long run even the former should leave regional pilots better off than never merging lists.

If the lists are merged by date, will be able to bid for all positions, so better paid regional PIC positions (if existing) would be open to mainline copilots. If the lists are just joined back to front regional pilots would obviously have to keep their positions (or at least pay).

The mainline's ability to hire more experienced pilots from the military or somewhere else rather than having to take pilots from the subsidiary should not be a factor. Seniority, after all, is designed to give the jobs to the people already with the company, provided they have the required level of experience. Better than required experience isn't really an issue. If we want to protect the airline's right to hire the "best man for the job" rather than "the most senior man able to to the job" we'd have to abolish seniority.

As I don't know of any reliable way to measure if one pilot is better than the other, we should stick to seniority, even if it stings sometimes.....

Writing from a European Regional where this might be an issue in the future.

BTW, keep the Railway Labor Act and the NMB.

ironbutt57

1st Sep 2000, 13:21

good to see a few people out there remember our "friend" hank duffy....and all the people he sold his line of crap to....just don't forget his successor, b. babbit who suddenly overnight became a delta captain...lots of delta pilots are scabs, they just crossed the eastern picket line in their own uniforms and airplanes...

traveler

2nd Sep 2000, 03:06

Very interesting.
If you guy's ever get to the point of merging those lists, you get to the problem of how. At KLM and fully owned daughter KLM Cityhopper this has been done. They picked a date, say today, everybody already working at Cityhopper gets half seniority at KLM (to be used after 8 years) and all new hires will get full seniority on the new list. With a sliding scale for those working less that 4 at Cityhopper. So the guy that has been with KLM for say 2 years now has a lot of Cityhopper pilots in front of him on the list. He is not a happy camper. It won't influence his short term bidding but down the line it might take him years longer to make big-jet-captain, and associated pay. So what do you think happened ? The senior Cityhopper guy's started a lawsuit saying they deserve full seniority as well (date of hire), and that the junior Cityhopper guy's got a better deal and that is discrimination. Go figure. Case is not settled yet. If this tread is still alive I'll let ya know.
(P.S. I'm not personally effected).

None

2nd Sep 2000, 05:09

Recently, there was an ASA-type on the jump seat. There was polite discussion on the topic. Then a statement was made that he didn't like. We said (just to see his reaction) that many of the senior Delta F/O's may want to hop into the left seat of the RJ, thereby displacing some ASA/Comair Capt's down to the Brasilia, and the Brasilia Capt's down to the RJ F/O, etc. His response? "You can't do that!" Boy, he was beet-red with anger. Apparently it's only a good deal if it works their way. Funny thing, though. Before the ASA/Comair demand came about, I might have entertained the idea of some restricted type of farm program. Now? I don't even want to bring up the subject until after C2K has been completed. I simply won't allow the distraction; can't be bothered with it for the moment. They have, for the moment at least, lost an excellent, and very large ally.