Once a pilot - now a computer's sidekick

[A37575]

Following the Air France Airbus A330 accident in the South Atlantic on 1 June 2009, the French Authority BEA made several recommendations to prevent future accidents of this type. Aviation Week magazine reports that a human factors working group has been set up as part of the BEA investigation. Better training is likely to become a crucial follow-up action as the report is absorbed and discussed across the industry.

Talk-fests on the subject are a dime a dozen and will get nowhere until operators realise that the solution is straight forward. And that is the accent on flight simulator training must be reversed from automation back to basic principles of flying an aeroplane on raw data manual flying. Raw data includes flight director turned off; despite what some airline instructors think.

Currently 90 percent of simulator training involves automation. In spite of this it has been known for many years that automation addiction forced upon crews by manufacturers and operators leads to complacency and loss of basic instrument flying skills. Besides the spectacular demise of the Air France A330 there have been numerous other jet transport accidents where the cause has been poor instrument flying ability caused in part by over-reliance on automation.

Below is an article extract cut and pasted from the latest issue of Curt Lewis & Associates Flight safety website No 147. It should be absorbed by every automation dependant airline pilot. The author makes his point very clearly that operators must grasp the nettle and fix the problem before the inevitable next accident caused by the pilot's lack of basic instrument flying ability.
The article is headed Once a pilot, now a computer's sidekick


Industry analysts estimated last week that in the next 20 years, the airlines are going to need 466,000 new pilots. When I said to an airline pilot friend that such a job market would make it easy for his son to follow in his footsteps, he smiled.

"I think he wants a flying job instead," he replied.

I noted that this sounded odd coming from a fellow who just flew a planeload of passengers back from overseas.

"I didn't fly," he replied. "The computer flew. I sat in the front office, monitoring systems."

"Who flies better," I asked, "you or the computer?"

"Oh, the computer," he replied. "No contest, as long as things function. When they stop functioning, it's a different story. Then the computer quits, and I go to work. Provided I still remember how."

The dilemma isn't new, but it's being discussed more and more frequently. Pilots don't fly enough. They get rusty, and when they really need to call upon their flying muscles, they find them either atrophied or insufficiently developed in the first place. The symbol of the problem has become Air France's Flight 447, an Airbus dropped by its pilots into the ocean three years ago, according to a French inquiry's final report released last month.

When a faulty speed sensor made the autopilot quit, two co-pilots on the flight deck would have needed to hand-fly their Airbus 330, established in cruise at 35,000 feet over the Atlantic, until the captain, who was taking his scheduled nap, returned to the cockpit. Their task was to fly straight and level for two or three minutes on instruments, with no visual reference to the horizon, without reliable airspeed indication, in light turbulence. They couldn't do it. By the time the captain came back, the Airbus had stopped flying and was about a minute from contacting the water.

In 1915, Arthur Roy Brown, the flying ace credited with bringing down Manfred von Richthofen, the Red Baron, had his pilot's license issued with six hours of flight time. By comparison, even the least experienced pilot on AF447 had 2,800 hours in his logbook. It isn't that today's pilots train fewer hours; it's that the study of increasingly complex systems and regulations compete for time and emphasis with flying skills. Airmanship and command authority are being boxed in by petty rules, for the comfort of lawyers and bureaucrats rather than to enhance operational efficiency and flight safety.

Before leaving the flight deck for his scheduled rest, the captain of Air France's ill-fated Flight 447 was obliged, as part of his briefing, to ask his relief pilot if he had a commercial pilot's license. Why would anyone weigh down the captain's workload with such a query? Would an unlicensed impostor say to the captain: "Crikey, skipper, I didn't know you needed a license for this gig" or would he just lie and say: "Yes, sir."

The crew whose fate it was to be flying Flight 447 had the necessary qualifications. The problem was that they had them in their wallets, rather than in their heads. Qualifications in wallets satisfy bureaucracies, but only qualifications in heads ensure the safety of a flight.

It was a "Thales"-type speed sensor that iced up as the Airbus was skirting a thunderstorm high above the South Atlantic. Air France, aware of the limitations of the device, had just begun to replace the $3,500 units. It hadn't gotten around to changing it in the ill-fated airplane before it departed Rio de Janeiro for Paris on the night of June 1, 2009. Grounding the entire Airbus fleet until all units were replaced may have cost only a fraction of what the accident, investigation and lawsuits will end up costing Air France, to say nothing of the tragic loss of 228 lives. Some analysts argue, though, that turning all potential flaws into mandatory "no go" items would make air transportation unaffordable.

The "Thales" sensors were more susceptible to icing than other designs, but they didn't all ice up, and the planes carrying those that did remained flyable and were landed safely by their Air France crews. So were two other Airbus 330s belonging to Paris-based Air Caraibes Atlantique. Only Flight 447 fell into the ocean. One disaster is one too many, of course, but it was no more an inevitable consequence than it would be for a blown tire to flip a car.

Airspeed is crucial to flight. Too fast and the plane can break up; too slow and it can fall out of the sky. When airspeed indicators become unreliable, the computerized systems - autopilot and auto-throttles - quit. On the Airbus, this is announced by the aural warning of a cavalry charge, the computer's way of calling the human pilot to the rescue.

Aviation is full of pithy sayings. One is that an airspeed sensor has no backup except airmanship. Losing airspeed readings can range from a non-event to a dire emergency depending on the pilot's skill and additional circumstances. The autopilot quitting on AF447, as it was designed to do after losing reliable airspeed indication, could and should have been a non-event. It left an airworthy aircraft flying straight and level in light turbulence. All Flight 447 needed was a pilot to fly it - or just let the plane fly itself, which is what planes trimmed for cruise flight tend to do in stable air, especially if their wings are kept level - but, as the cockpit voice recorder revealed, there were no pilots on the flight deck. There were two systems managers being confronted by a system that suddenly had become unmanageable.

Real pilots would have disregarded the rebellious computers going viral with flashing lights, cavalry charges, buzzers and bells, huffily announcing all the things they stopped doing for the humans aboard or required the humans to do for them. They would have let the computers crash and concentrated on flying the plane. The systems managers stopped flying and crashed with their computers.

This isn't how the French inquiry puts it, needless to say. I wouldn't put it this way in an inquiry myself. I'm exaggerating to make the point that our technology may be getting ahead of itself. If so, we may hire 466,000 systems managers of an unmanageable system in the next 20 years.
Once a pilot, now a computer (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/07/18/george-jonas-once-a-pilot-now-a-computers-sidekick/)

[aussie027]

Great article, thanks.

Re the worldwide pervasive over use and reliance on automation this is well worth a look by all pilots airline training departments and managements.

This talk was given at American Airlines training centre in 1997.
How much worse have things gotten in this regard since then??? How many accidents??

Children of Magenta, well worth 25min of your time.

Children of Magenta - YouTube

[teresa green]

DON'T get me started. As a silly old bastard, who believes every pilot in this country should be thrown out into the bush, and taught to think for her/him self, (there is nothing like standing on a deserted runway in the GAFA and work a problem out for yourself, just you and the flies.) No comfortable Sim, no obliging LAME, just you. What you learn then, no SIM can ever teach you. Self preservation comes first, then some lateral thinking, then a decision. And you have started a basic airmanship that will take you thru your career. (If your decision is correct) You cannot build a brick wall unless you have a firm foundation, and that is the same in this career. I absolutely despair that this sort of thinking has been taken away, though the decisions of some senior QF Skippers has given me some hope when they returned to the basics under pressure, and dutifully return their bus and PAX to safety. But you can bet your hat, they were either service trained or GA trained. If you have not scared the absolute ****e out of yourself at least once, then you should not be flying commercial jets.

[shnev]

Really nicely said, t-g

[Oriana]

Whilst I agree, especially with you TG, the people 'paying the wages' and 'resourcing' the operation do not have a sufficient depth of understanding about what it takes to deliver an aeroplane full of people from A to B, and understand that 'the aeroplanes fly themselves'.

They see pilots as 'process workers' and minimum regulatory standard are probably 'excessive'.

And, if they lose a jet or two across the world - well, that's the cost of doing business.

Cynical? Maybe.

[WMUOSF]

200% T G
Fly the Aircraft first sort problems later.

[sheppey]

And don't fool yourself this automation dependency will never happen in Australia. It has long been with Australia's major and regional operators already and CASA appears disinterested as long as regulatory boxes are ticked.

Anecdotal as always - but when you have a domestic airline first officer offered a visual hand flown approach into Hobart in broad daylight by the captain and replies hesitantly that he would rather watch the captain because he had never done a manual approach into Hobart (basically a joining procedure on the downwind leg), then you realise that either his line training needs to be looked at, or his self confidence. Or both. Two or three cyclic simulator sessions a year to meet CASA regulatory requirements are clearly insufficient to maintain manual flying skills; especially as they are mostly button pushing highly intricate flight management exercises rather than practicing the basics of hand flying.

One cannot help feeling sorry for today's pilots who are so welded to the automatics and the magic of the magenta line, that many have become privately apprehensive of hand flying an average jet. What an indictment and a sad reflection of today's airline pilot lack of basic manual flying skills. Crews can be constrained by company SOP, and perhaps personal laziness plays its part too. It could also be argued that training departments must bear a fair amount responsibility for the current situation apropos automation dependency. What is certain is the problem will not go away and as someone remarked earlier the Air France A340 crash is just the visible and tragic tip of the iceberg.

[TallestPoppy]

Sheppey, at what stage was this offered by the Captain?

If this had been a discussion prior to the top of descent, then a mental model could have been shared, and agreement had on how the visual approach would be fine.

Despite there probably being a nice diagram in the QRH, a sharing of each pilots understanding of how the approach would be flown, at what config, at what point, and how any go-around would be flown would go a long way to ensuring a safe outcome.

TG, new pilots entering the industry may not have our background, but if we set the right tone in the flight deck, maybe we can give them the benefits of our experience in a positive manner.

[sheppey]

then a mental model could have been shared, and agreement had on how the visual approach would be fine.


In all seriousness, does a pilot really need to share a "mental" model to fly an aeroplane by hand on a sunny day? :rolleyes:

[Keg]

Airspace and approach design play a big part in this now too. How often do you get to actually do a visual circuit? For the QF 767 drivers, there is only a couple of places where you can fly a proper base and final approach let alone joining downwind a circuit altitude.

With an increased focus on the automatics, QARs, speed tolerances, and so on there is also an increasing focus on programming the FMC so that you can actually leave it all engaged for as long as possible. Training departments themselves are breeding this in so it'll be interesting to see where we're at in 10-20 years time when the current breed of new F/Os become training captains.

[captainng]

I learnt to fly in the bush in WA and NT flying with only myself to rely on.

15 years later and I am in europe flying B737ng with 200 hr cadets.

I am a great believer in pilots being able to hand fly and this is what I do with guys once they get comfortable with jet ( about 200hrs) I then introduce raw data, ILS, then Flying vectors at night and then take the map modes off (all over a few months) most guys that fly with me can now fly raw data hand flown dme arcs to vor/ils arrivals all with just HSI! no map mode on at all and it seems to really widen their situational awareness as well.

All these guys are 200 hr guys initially and it can be taught but it needs captains who are willing to let guys do it as you may have to tell them to go around or take the controls back off of them. I have never set off the OFDM and have seen some pretty atrocious approaches but i would rather see them in a controlled enviroment than on a dark stormy night!!

If you can't fly a modern jet like it was piston twin should you really be in the seat anyway!

[MASTEMA]

The theory/rule that it take's 10,000hrs to 'master' anything from mowing the lawn to the most delicate brain surgery has been around for a while. An interesting book 'The Outliers' (Malcolm Gladwell) touches on this.

In the case of Airline flying, the focus usually appears to be on the end result i.e. the standard of landing.

If the landing is a greaser and the rest of the operation is crap, as far as I am concerned, no cigar.

All of it is important, from the moment you arrive at work early; in a well presented uniform; Briefings correct; SOPs correct; R/T correct; Professional PAs; Smooth accurate skills maintained and demonstrated; but most important, attitude correct.

If you don't like complying with the standard, then you should leave.

Young to Old, GEN X to GEN Z, from the ennui to the heat in the kitchen, when it comes down to it, some 'individuals' should not be anywhere near an aircraft.

[aussie027]

Capt NG,
Very well done and said sir.:ok:

A US airline yrs ago, cannot remember which one, used to do something similar in its line training with new pilots.
Cannot remember whether during the line training Captains worked up thru the automation levels starting from raw data, no moving map, fully manual flying and do it by brain etc to full FMS integration or down the other way as you are doing but the benefits for the new pilots were huge.

Taught them, (drummed into them), whichever way it was done that they could fly the plane like a piston twin with raw data and brain power with ALL the automatic everything turned off and it still flies like an aeroplane because it is just an aeroplane!!
It is NOT a flying keyboard and bunch of computer systems (or a video game), like too many designers, engineers and managers think these days!!

The rest of the goodies are there to make things easier, at the right times, NOT to be used slavishly for every last minute of flight and in every situation.
See the above video link I posted. He reiterates all that very well, along with the fact that the automatics do not know what the word "NOW" means, nor can they ever respond that way, and that too many pilots are relying on the automatics to save the day or situation when it all turns to sh.., .....errr,.... goes pear shaped.:E

Someone told me a long time ago to remember that any aeroplane no matter how big or sophisticated has a wing and engines and your job was to fly and mange them both first above all else.
If those 2 things were within their limitations/ envelopes and doing what they should be doing you would fly along OK.
We saw with Air France what happens when one of those 2 essential things is not.:{

[rogerrapoport]

Rio-Paris airbus crash 'might have been prevented' if pilots had been briefed on previous incident - Europe - World - The Independent (http://tinyurl.com/7o3k7jh)
The Rio Paris Crash: Air France 447 (http://www.airfrance447crash.com/)

LONDON INDEPENDENT
Rio-Paris airbus crash 'might have been prevented' if pilots had been briefed on previous incident



By John Lichfield

Tuesday, 17 July 2012
A French investigating judge is examining evidence that the Rio-Paris airbus crash might have been prevented if the pilots had been briefed on a terrifying incident the previous year.


According to an online update (The Rio Paris Crash: Air France 447 (http://www.airfrance447crash.com/)) to a book on the crash, which will appear in print shortly, Air France and Airbus failed to notify pilots about a crisis aboard a Paris to Madagascar flight on 16 August 2008 that bore striking resemblances to the chain of calamities which befell flight AF447 over the south Atlantic nine months later.

An American writer and aviation expert, Roger Rapoport, says the events aboard the Air France Madagascar flight – and the successful action taken by its pilot to prevent a crash – are now central to the Rio-Paris manslaughter investigation which is being conducted by a French judge, Sylvie Zimmerman.

Mr Rapoport says an independent study by aviation experts sent to the judge last week took a much tougher line on the possible criminal responsibilities of Airbus and Air France than the inconclusive final report of the French air accident investigation bureau, the BEA, the previous week. His book reveals that the experts’ criticism is based partly on events aboard an Airbus 340, AF flight 373, from Paris to Tananarive in Madagascar in August 2008.

The pilot of the Madgasacar flight lost reliable indication of his airspeed because the recorders, or pitot tubes, had iced up. Amid heavy turbulence he descended to 4,000 feet, turning off the instructions from the aircraft’s computerised guidance system or ‘flight director’.

Much the same circumstances led to the crash of AF 447 in the south Atlantic on 1 June 2009, which killed 228 passengers and crew. In that case, however, the crew lifted the plane’s nose and made a series of other calamitous misjudgements which led the aircraft to plunge into the ocean.

The BEA report suggested the crash was caused by a mixture of systems’ failure and pilot error. It did suggest, however, that the pilots may have been led into error by the computerised fight director.

Air France and Airbus were placed under formal investigation for manslaughter in March last year. Judge Zimmermann must decide whether to recommend that criminal charges should be brought against either company or both.

Mr Rapoport quotes a veteran French aviation expert as saying: “If Air France and Airbus had done the right thing and notified Airbus pilots about the specifics of this near disaster on the Madagascar bound flight, new emergency procedures and better training certainly could have saved the lives of 228 passengers and crew…”

Jacques Rocca, a spokesman for Airbus, contacted by The Independent today, dismissed these conclusions as “false… just plain wrong.”

He added: “To suggest that we failed to warn airlines or pilots that flight directors are unreliable when the pitot tubes fail is absurd. All pilots know this already.”

Mr Rapoport told the Independent: “The BEA report makes it clear that that 'the absence of any (pilot) training at high altitude in manual aeroplane handing’ and the failure of ‘feedback mechanisms’ made it impossible to apply the correct recovery procedures. The Madagascar flight was a case-book example of how pilots should react but the details were not circulated.”

A French lawyer who represents families of victims of the crash, Maitre Stephane Busy, confirmed to The Independent today that the Madagascar incident formed part of the judicial inquiry. He said: “The problem is that putting the ‘flight director’ on ‘off’ is recommended but… there is no reminder on the instruments panel. Air France and Airbus knew that this could be a problem but they allowed their aircraft to continue to fly.”

Cedric Leurquin, an Air France spokesman, said the Madagascar flight incident has been “normally analysed” and “concerned stakeholders were informed”. He added: “For the rest… Air France…adheres faithfully to the BEA's analyses published on July 5.”

Mr Rapoport’s book is an updated English language version of a book published in French last year. It went online last night and will appear in a print version shortly as “The Rio-Paris Crash; Air France 447”.

[4Greens]

My problem with the Airbus is that I cant see what the copilot is doing with his stick.

[Sunfish]

Let me put it in Accountant speak for you.

1. They are not heartless bastards.

2. The airlines are continuously asked to pay more and more for aircraft by the manufacturer.

3. According to the manufacturer, the price of the aircraft is justified by the sophistication of it automated systems.

Answer the following Airline management question:

"Exactly how does all this expensive computer controlled automation translate into more profits for my shareholders?????????? Because if it doesn't, then I don't want it!!!!!!"

Sadly; the usual answer to that question is that it allows the airline to employ cheaper and less experienced pilots with no loss of safety.

You have already heard Alan Joyce justify engineering retrenchments and their substitution with cheap offshore labor for virtually the same reason.

Peter Abeles onced asked virtually this very question and it triggered young Sunfish to start studying for an MBA to try and understand the answer.

[teresa green]

Excellent NG. My time as a F/O was not spent reading the newspapers on a long flight, it was hands on to a degree, with a usually vigilant Skipper who had no hesitation at throwing me a curly one, at 0300. That used to irritate me at times, but long ago recognised the professionalism of the man. I in turn did the same, and have at retired meetings have a former F/O say I enjoyed flying with you, I learnt from you. That does not make me anyone special, it just makes me someone who continued a should be time honored line, of never stop learning. And so it should be today, the bloody things are just as dangerous as they ever were, in the hands of incompetents, who somehow slipped thru the net, and they should be weeded out with no apologies.

[virginexcess]

The real question here is "are there statistically more crashes since advent of automation, or less?". I'm tipping that there are less. For every accident caused by lack of basic flying skills, there are probably 10 prevented by automation and improved warning systems.

Overall, I'm betting that automation has resulted in a net increase in safety.

The next phase of the evolution is to try and maintain automation proficiency alongside basic flying skill currency, all within the constraints placed on training resources. Not easy. Given the relative importance, automation proficiency will be the priority.

Now let's take what we know about automation, the quantum of training that a young airline pilot gets these days, and the perceived status of a pilot job, then apply that to the forecast requirement for pilots over the next 20 years.

It's pretty clear that we are going to see the trend continue toward a more regulated use of automation. It is the only way that the airlines are going to be able to put enough bums in seats to fly the aircraft on order.

Will there be crashes as a result; you bet, but there will be a lot less than if you allowed these low hour pilots to hand fly jet aircraft around.

I can say this from a position of being a GA pilot, a military pilot and an airline pilot. Once upon a time i could hand fly with the best of them. Now days I am struggling to do a basic maneuver. I still do them from time to time, but only when well briefed with weather and traffic conditions permitting.

As far as being able to grab the jet from the autopilot in IMC when everything is going pear shaped? I don't think so.

[prospector]

As far as being able to grab the jet from the autopilot in IMC when everything is going pear shaped? I don't think so.

That will be a very contentious statement I would think.

[virginexcess]

That will be a very contentious statement I would think.

To clarify

First option is to revert to basic automation modes to try and recover problem, if that doesn't work manual intervention is the final level of protection.

I will qualify that by saying this philosophy requires a solid understanding of what the aircraft should be doing in a any given automation mode so that early recognition of abnormal behaviour can be identified and a less automated mode can be selected to rectify the problem.

Gone are the days of immediately reverting to hand flying when the automatics are not behaving as expected, or at least they should be gone.

Additionally, in most modern jets, any hand flying intervention should normally be limited to establishing stable flight and re-engaging the automatics.

[Capn Bloggs]

Will there be crashes as a result; you bet, but there will be a lot less than if you allowed these low hour pilots to hand fly jet aircraft around.

Nonsense. Nobody is suggesting that one hand-flies when the workload is high; that is what the automatics are for. But there are plenty of scenarios where hand-flying proficiency can be maintained in safe conditions.

The whole point is that we must have the skills to immediately jump on the controls and continue to fly (or be able to monitor the automatics properly) when something goes terribly wrong such as AF447. The Turkish 737 was another example of automation dependency. I'll bet every one of those guys could to do a lovely 25° turn up and down in the canned Sim exercise. But they still got killed because they either didn't notice or could not work out WTF was going on. That's because they weren't current or in the mindset of actually flying the aeroplane. Handflying skill does improve your monitoring of the automatics and allows you to jump in and save the aeroplane when the AP spits the dummy.

What's next; autopilot and ATS becoming No-Go items?

Let's get out of this mindset of "experience is going down, so let's mandate more use of the automatics". Let's increase training and recurrent proficiency to achieve and maintain the skill that will ultimately save our and the pax's lives.

[virginexcess]

Ah yes Bloggs

The problem is that you are coming at it from a pilots point of view, which is 'no accident is acceptable'. Unfortunately the bean counters control the resources, so they have a formula that comes up with a number that equates to acceptable number of hull losses. There in lies the problem.

The bean counters are happy to accept a certain number of crashes and we aren't, so we have to make do with what we are given to train our pilots.

In our operation we have such limited opportunity to actually hand fly that all currency items are dealt with in the simulator. As a result of having to complete all the mandatory regulatory requirements there is precious little time left to devote to maintaining basic flying skills. Ideal? No. Reality? Yes.

Let's increase training and recurrent proficiency to achieve and maintain the skill that will ultimately save our and the pax's lives.

That is naive in the extreme. Training and recurrent proficiency are a cost tot he airline and affect somebody's KPI's. Until the accident rate climbs to a level that the bean counters find unacceptable, they won't throw one extra dollar at it.

[Centaurus]

Gone are the days of immediately reverting to hand flying when the automatics are not behaving as expected, or at least they should be gone.


That belief is what scares the hell out of me. The reason why pilots should be perfectly confident of reverting to hand flying when the automatics are not behaving as expected, is that it is more efficient and far quicker to go Click Click and take immediate control than furiously going heads down poking buttons.
No pilot likes to make a fool of himself in front of the other crew member. And the reason why many pilots espouse staying with automatics through thick and thin is because they know they have become rusty, and thus incapable of hand flying competence. They would never admit it but I suspect they are frightened of losing face in front of the other pilot. Loss of face is not just an Asian trait. It applies equally to all captains and first officers.

[virginexcess]

I think you have pretty much hit the nail on the head, however i would contend that it is actually a higher workload to hand fly due to the nature of automated flight decks.

When flying with the autopilot engaged the PF can make mode changes as required.
When hand flying all mode changes have to be articulated to the PM. Whilst that may sound simple, it isn't always.

Again, the days of disconnecting and pointing at the runway are gone. At the very least you have to call for the appropriate mode so that you have flight director guidance.

Any in flight occurence that requires an autopilot disconnect is most likely going to pop up on the FDR. When/if it does the Captain will be sent a please explain. If he has continued flight without appropriate flight director guidance it is unlikely that he is going to be patted on the back and have his exemplary flying skill praised. More likely he is going to be sent to the sim for some more training on how to manage the automatics.

It is a downward spiral that's for sure.

[Gnadenburg]

Centaurus

The ability to confidently take out misbehaving or limiting automatics, put the aircraft where it needs to be, re-instate automatics if need be, is a ancillary concern in this debate in relation to the value of hand flying proficiency.

If the Airbus safety record with mode confusion and lack of the basics is not a concern, the fact that some Airbus models have multiple Operational Engineering Bulletins stating failures of automation to deliver accurate Flight Director in critical phases should be.

I feel robbed of my hand flying proficiency by the industry and regulator.

[prospector]

It usd to be that the Auto Pilot was there to assist the pilot, it would now appear that the Pilot is there to assist the Auto Pilot.

How many more years of UAV operations before they are cleared to carry Pax???

[FlareArmed]

Again, the days of disconnecting and pointing at the runway are gone. At the very least you have to call for the appropriate mode so that you have flight director guidance.

What stops you turning off the flight director and auto-thrust? Whatever happened to a bit of "old' power plus attitude? Oh that's right – nobody knows what an attitude is any more: they just chase a flight director.

If you can't quote some basic attitudes and approximate power for, a lap of the circuit, cruise, descent, base-turn and final, you do not belong in the flightdeck of a jet.

[Tee Emm]

OTE]
Let's get out of this mindset of "experience is going down, so let's mandate more use of the automatics". Let's increase training and recurrent proficiency to achieve and maintain the skill that will ultimately save our and the pax's lives.


"I got no brakes, man." Latest incident report published in Flight International. US investigators have determined that the speed brakes on a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737-700 were not armed before the twinjet slid off the runway at Chicago Midway. The crew also did not deploy the thrust reversers until 16 seconds after touchdown.
The crew had created extra workload by initially uploading and briefing the wrong approach procedure, and then when they realised the error after they left the holding pattern, they again increased their workload by reprogramming the FMC for the correct approach.

Isn't this the the old story all over again? Unnecessary button pushing when the priority should have been on flying the aircraft? Then they got a flap overspeed resulting in more distraction and then forgot to do the landing checklist .

The autobrakes were selected earlier but after touchdown the speed brakes did not deploy and the reversers were not actuated. So the automatic brakes did not actuate. Still the penny had not dropped until the CVR heard "I got no brakes, man".

The captain then applied full manual braking and reverse thrust was engaged with 1,500 ft of runway remaining - an action which automatically deployed the speed brakes. The aircraft left the runway and rolled 200 ft into grass. None of the 139 passengers and crew members were injured in the 26 April 2011 incident.

What is the solution to this type of crass bad airmanship? Because in all probability it is not just an isolated incident. Some would recommend more still automation. Others may see it differently.

[Trent 972]

AIRBUS Golden Rule 6 (http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/safety_library_items/AirbusSafetyLib_-FLT_OPS-SOP-SEQ03.pdf) (250kb)


When things don’t go as expected, Take over If the aircraft does not follow the desired vertical flight path / lateral flight path or the selected targets, and time does not permit analyzing and solving the observed behavior, revert without delay from:
• FMS guidance to selected guidance;
or from,
• Selected guidance to hand flying.

Rule 7


Use the correct level of automation for the task On highly automated and integrated aircraft, several levels of automation are available to perform a given task:
• FMS modes and guidance; or,
• Selected modes and guidance.
The correct level of automation depends on:
• The task to be performed:
− short-term (tactical) task; or,
− long-term (strategic) task;
• The flight phase:
− departure, enroute, terminal area or approach-and-landing; and,
• The time available:
− normal selection or entry; or,
− last-minute change.
The correct level of automation often is the one the pilot feels the most comfortable with, depending on his/her knowledge and experience of the aircraft and systems, skills and confidence.
Reversion to hand-flying and manual thrust-control may be the "correct level of automation", for the prevailing conditions.
my bolding

[teresa green]

And we come back to the time honored way every time. Work with what you have, forget about what you have lost, and if you have had the basics hammered into your head from day one of your flying career, chances are you will get the bus on the ground. In my career, I had loss of nose wheel HBA/MEL, lost a donk on TO full pax, full fuel, and a freckin roman candle coming out of the left donk out of CBR, and God only knows how many other little set backs that buggered up my day, and each time was blessed with a competent F/O and flighty, a competent experienced flight deck, that handled both possible disasters, with training and experience. All former bush pilots, GA pilots, the training showed. I might add these experienced hero's made their way to the nearest pub, after all the stress, and got totally pissed, but hey we deserved it!

[Chimbu chuckles]

virginexcess is spot on - I am sad to say.

Capn Bloggs while your operation around the western GAFA provides ample opportunity to fly manually and maintain skills that is not true of MOST jet operations worldwide. For instance where are the opportunities for the crews operating between HKG and LHR or SIN and FRA or DXB and LA or NY and Paris?

I came to believe just after I started to fly for my first airline (after nearly 7000hrs in GA) that if you don't 'learn to fly' (have well ingrained basic skills) BEFORE you get in an airline jet you NEVER will - and that first airline jet for me was an F28 where we still DID hand fly a lot.

I have seen no evidence in the 17 odd years since that suggests that is, on balance, not the case.

At recent sim recurrent we were told in the brief that the grading emphasis in our airline had shifted from manual skills to NOTECHS - Non Technical Skills.

For those unschooled in NOTECHS there are 4 categories;

* Co-operation
* Leadership and Managerial Skills
* Situational Awareness
* Decision Making

Within each category there are 'elements' such as, with SA, 'awareness of aircraft systems/external environment/time'

All very good and clever - BUT,

NOTECHS assumes good communication skills (in English) and good basic technical skills are a given - which are two pretty unrealistic assumptions to make. Even if they're at a high level in a given airline NOW if you remove the emphasis eventually they won't be - its just human nature.

Less and less do airline management pilots have a background in GA/MIL these days and those that don't TRULY don't see much value in the hand flying skill set in modern aircraft like the 777 - which is too clever by half IMO. Too, in many airlines (especially 3rd world airlines), if a high standard of manual skills WAS required their cadetship schemes would be decimated and they would have to bid on the open market for that % of pilots who do have good skills and/or put very significant resources into training.

Can't have that - it would cost us a fortune - plus we already spend a fortune on Airbus and Boeing so they can give us idiot proof aeroplanes :hmm:

So we have a sort of downwards conflict spiral between airline CEO/beancounters - airline management pilots - aircraft manufacturers.

Array those 3 groups around a circle.

Airline CEOs/etc (except QF apparently) want more pax which means more aircraft which means more crews.

Management pilots are told X new aircraft are arriving in Y time frame - crew them! If they want to stay in management they do.

A/B want idiots to stop crashing their product which causes them much grief.

When A/B design a new idiot proof aeroplane that allows the airlines to go searching for a better class of idiot...and so the conflict spiral continues.

In the middle of the circle is this :ooh::confused: which is/should be the internationally recognised symbol of regulatory agencies:E

The answer of better/higher standards is politically and practically impossible worldwide - so we will see cleverer/more idiot proof aeroplanes chasing after a better class of idiot until pilotless aircraft become a reality - then we will see LOTS of crashes/people killed when its found (shock horror:hmm: ) that as flawed as a well trained, highly skilled human is - he/she is a damn site better than a computer incapable of feeling fear talking to a pimply faced computer geek in a trailer 8000nm away over a data link designed and produced by the lowest cost bidder.

Its all just human nature:(

[Normasars]

Bravo Chimbu.

The best post I have read on here for a long time.:ok:

Well said Sir.

[teresa green]

And today the skipper of the A380 confirmed what most have said. Good training in the early days be it service or self taught GA, work with what you have got, worry not with what you have lost. Fly the Aircraft NBR 1. Go back to the very basics if need be that your flying instructor instilled in your head. It is still only a aeroplane remember that, and can be flown without all the bells and whistles ( though not as easy) AND as Richard stated today in the Australian weekend Magazine, never totally trust the bastards, never. I have never forgotten meeting Capt Lester Brain, and the great man saying to me, Son, don't be surprised if they don't take off, be surprised that they do. I hope there are young pilots reading this thread, and I hope they realise that they need to keep honing their flying skills, I suggest you spend a bit of money, hire a lighty and reconnect to just that, it will be worth every cent.

[dogcharlietree]

There is a helluva difference between an AVIATOR (remember that old term) and a pilot (who now days is a systems operator).
Unfortunately, it is a sign of the times that aviator's are a dying breed.
I could mention a good book, "Fate Is The Hunter", which summed up a few examples of an aviator's thinking.
'Nuff said...I will reminisce my tail-dragger days with a big smile. ;)
ps..great thread.

[Tee Emm]

Examples of when you have lost the enthusiasm that we all had when we began to learn to fly.
On descent on a lovely day into Melbourne winds L&V.

"Do you mind if I switch off the flight director and hand fly for a bit"?
"Whatever for? - you are only making it hard for yourself and load me up as well"
Jeez Jack - its CAVOK and I've got a sim check coming up -I need the practice.
No son - leave the autopilot in. It's safer that way.
Well can I switch to HSI mode on my side?
Whatever for - are you mad or something? - leave it on MAP for better situational awareness, son.
Glum silence - then "Mind if I turn off the autobrake for my landing?"

"Whatever for?" Are you trying to bust every SOP?
No captain, I'm not. And autobrakes for every landing is not SOP, anyway. All I want to do is keep my hand in on manual flying like I did in GA and with 10,000 ft of runway I don't need the autobrake, anyway.

Alright son, I'll go you halves - you can turn off the autopilot on short final and I'll have the autobrake on three. Leave the flight director on in case of a go-around though.
"Three for Christ's sake- WTF do you want autobrake three for - the brakes will get hot" Anyway we don't need the flight director for a go-around".

"In my aircraft son, you use the flight director at all times and as far as hot brakes - well it never happens with autobrakes and anyway brakes are built to take heat didn'tcha know that. Now relax son, and watch your language. Just you do what I tell you and leave the flight director, the autopilot, the autothrottle, the autobrake, and the autospeed brakes to do their jobs and everything will be fine when you fly with me.
"But but but!"
"Don't effing argue with me son. Just fly the bloody aircraft.
"Yes captain Sir - that was what I was trying to do, but you won't let me.....

[Capn Bloggs]

For instance where are the opportunities for the crews operating between HKG and LHR or SIN and FRA or DXB and LA or NY and Paris?

Below 10,000ft on a nice sunny day would be a start. It doesn't matter that you're not doing a overfly circuit or just a ILS. It all helps. If that's too dangerous, then you really do have a problem in your operation.

As for the rest of your post, Chimbu, I think most of us know that. Some of us are saying let's make the effort. By at least raising the issue somebody's conscience might be pricked. A couple of prangs might also shake someone into reality.

[rivet head]

Anybody seen this,►
A380 Aborted Take off.VOB - YouTube

[Mr.Buzzy]

Storm in a teacup.

In my humble 15 years of multi-crew flying, not once have I heard a discouraging word when someone wanted to practice "hand-flying".

If anything, I have witnessed the total opposite.

"Nah mate, I don't build FMC circuits, I just turn all that **** off and fly it like a man."

When I hear those words, I sit up in my seat and review unusual attitude recovery in my mind! Have witnessed plenty of white knuckled, shiny lever, wrestling matches and usually at the end of a big day!

Why make it tough?

Pick your fights, good weather, light traffic, FO with ample brainspace..... click click.


bbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Joker89]

That belief is what scares the hell out of me. The reason why pilots should be perfectly confident of reverting to hand flying when the automatics are not behaving as expected, is that it is more efficient and far quicker to go Click Click and take immediate control than furiously going heads down poking buttons.


I disagree with this. The modern glass cockpit pilot must be a master of manipulating the FD/AP in all circumstances, especially when things are going off the rails. Disconnecting and hand flying is the easy option and in my opinion admits defeat.

There's nothing wrong with disconnecting and doing some pilot **** but it shouldn't be the first response when finding yourself in a "what's it doing now" moment.

[Arnold E]

but it shouldn't be the first response when finding yourself in a "what's it doing now" moment.

Are you joking there Joker??

[squarebear]

The autobrakes were selected earlier but after touchdown the speed brakes did not deploy and the reversers were not actuated. So the automatic brakes did not actuate. Still the penny had not dropped until the CVR heard "I got no brakes, man".

Bunch of serious handling/SOP issues....but the auto brake did not actuate because of those issues?

[Joker89]

but it shouldn't be the first response when finding yourself in a "what's it doing now" moment.

Are you joking there Joker??

No, HDG/ALT/VS even ROLL/PITCH are all more appropriate than causing a possible worse situation from developing by taking the automation out. There is of course a time where there is no other option but it shouldn't be the first solution. If you can't manage the modes you shouldn't be flying the jet.

[crystalballwannabe]

I'm with Arnold E

Going into CWS or VS can also be very confusing for the PM rather than just disengaging and hand flying.

Maybe we need to specify a phase of flight i.e. Cruise/Approach/Unusual attitude.

Im also a Boeing guy - maybe the opposite for the Bus - never flown one.

[Joker89]

Yeah that's fair enough. I don't believe there's a right or wrong answer, every situation is different. I've seen automation used when hand flying is the better option.

[Tee Emm]

I've seen automation used when hand flying is the better option.
Does your MEL permit dispatch with autopilot inoperative? if it does then you had better hope that at least one of the two pilots knows how to hand-fly on instruments..

[Zapatas Blood]

"Jeez Jack - its CAVOK and I've got a sim check coming up -I need the practice."

Statistically, there is more likely to be a significant event occur with a reduced level of automation selected by the crew (unless overtaken by another significant event)

The Jeez Jack comment highlights the absurdity of modern airline flying thinking. "lets enhance the opportunity for a screw up because I want to use the real aeroplane to practice for a sim session".

Crazy.

[teresa green]

How right you are Zapatas, in my era, flying the aircraft was part of your training, your work, your learning, and your pleasure. I could always marvel that I got paid for doing something I loved so much. Now you are not allowed to touch the bloody thing, but still expected to get it out of trouble, when all the bells and whistles fail. Go figure. It is very interesting to read the QF Skippers account of his feelings after it all happened. My biggest could be disaster was the DC9 incident out of CBR which is documented. My F/O and myself, and a paxing Flighty got seriously pissed afterwards, along with a shaken cabin crew, and I guess that was our way of dealing with it, and I note the QF crew did exactly the same. Then you have to be prepared for the fallout afterwards. At first elation, then relief, then self doubt, followed by the fact that you had just faced your own mortality, and you look at your family and be grateful. I did not need professional help, and was given a fortnight off, but was glad to return to flying, with a new respect for the DC9 and its capacity to get itself out of trouble, with full fuel, full pax, and one donk that pulled like a Trojan, and as most of you know the terrain around CBR it bloody well needed to. I still think about it at times, it kept me awake for some time, considering it was not simply a engine failure due to tyre ingestion, but I was carrying the Treasurer (Keating) and most of the front bench of the Govt that night, had I pranged it would have changed this countries history, and I would have left my wife and my family to have that on their shoulders for ever more.

[Gnadenburg]

I disagree with this. The modern glass cockpit pilot must be a master of manipulating the FD/AP in all circumstances, especially when things are going off the rails. Disconnecting and hand flying is the easy option and in my opinion admits defeat.

There's nothing wrong with disconnecting and doing some pilot **** but it shouldn't be the first response when finding yourself in a "what's it doing now" moment.

I have always preferred the easiest, safest and most efficient option. And sometimes this requires the confident disconnection of the automatics, put the aircraft where it needs to be more quickly than the automatics allow, then re-insate the automatics.

A good Airbus example being a glide slope intercept from above, in a higher than normal energy state due whatever reason ( ATC or environmental ). It was previously simple to do it without the automatics and it is more limiting doing it with them. Fine, the new generation want a solution using the automatics. It has opened up a can of worms, with the automatic solution creating task saturation and the aircraft ending up in an undesired state on occasion. And the added risk that this task saturation with automatics, sees a tendency for raw data to be ignored, and the aircraft sails through the glideslope...

Unbelievable! The best solution is a pilot who is fully aware of the Flight Director limitations, a pilot who is confident in hand flying the aircraft, a pilot who never trusts the automation and monitors raw data. This delivers a pilot who will make the best choice under the circumstances. More often than not, he will use the automatics, but when airmanship dictates, a manual set up may be more desirable.

I am now realizing how lucky I was to be trained during the evolution of the glass cockpit jets. We were trained in the basics and built up the levels of supporting automation. The foundation of this training was always scanning and backing up with raw data. Yes, this is supposed to happen with the newer generation, but often they are task saturated with the automatics and cumbersome SOP's, that seem to complicate and blur scenarios where airmanship would deliver a common sense outcome.

Is this our problem? Pilots now live in fear of flying without the automatics or their SOP's limit their ability to do so. During uncommon events like a intermediate go around and a restrictive altitude, they encounter a startle factor as the SOP's haven't provided a solution and the limitations of the automatics are not understood or are unexplored. In this scenario, there is a chance the crew will just land long due a lack of confidence in doing a non-standard GA, or a 90% chance the GA maneuver is disorderly, due an inability to confidently manage the aircraft where the automatics may not deliver the best solution.

[Joker89]

Gburg

I agree with everything you said. My post was in response to a statement regarding "just disconnect when it's not working etc"

[Centaurus]

Pilots now live in fear of flying without the automatics or their SOP's limit their ability to do so

This subject has gone around and around and will continue to do so. While I appreciate those that actually post their views on Pprune are in a tiny minority v those who browse Pprune, nevertheless, the above quote is probably closer to the truth for the silent majority of Pprune readers.

[Wally Mk2]

We are now so entrenched in such high levels of automation that it's too late to turn back time & actually fly a plane using skills long since lost.
The A/C of today are simply not designed to be manipulated manually other than in a basic fashion by a human purely in the interest of safety, that word that is used to protect & serve to avoid the crazy litigious world we now live in!

We still have A/C made of the same stuff,primarily aluminum etc: the speeds of yesterdays machines & today's haven't changed BUT the guy behind the steering wheel is changing or evolving & not for the best either in my opinion.

ALL the A/C manufacturers are now fully geared up to produce even more automation & this is the selling point of modern hardware in the future,not the need for or installation of experienced pilots from days gone by, they/us/we oldies are a dieing breed & will soon be 'bred' out of the cockpit altogether.

Soon in the not too distant future there won't be a single pilot around flying who has raw flying experience, system operators only will prevail up front in rows 1A&B to protect & serve!.

Some old retired pilots would have sat upon their verandah's watching aviation change many years ago right before their eyes to what we have today, but that same scene is being played out again.


Wmk2

[Arnold E]

The A/C of today are simply not designed to be manipulated manually other than in a basic fashion by a human purely in the interest of safety

IF that is the case, then I see no need for the pilot at all, and so total auto pilotless aircraft are the future,.........but not for me.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The A/C of today are simply not designed to be manipulated manually other than in a basic fashion by a human purely in the interest of safety,

That may be true of Brand A Wally but not so of Brand B. The 777 is a delightful aeroplane to hand fly, with or without A/T.

I have flown the 787 level D sim and it is likewise delightful.

This is not about whether they can be hand flown its about whether you're allowed to and to want extent you SHOULD.

Bloggs suggested we could get all the hand flying practice we need in wide bodies flying between HKG-LHR etc etc below 10000' on nice sunny days - clearly he has never flown out of HKG or into LHR.:E

Certainly where I am based its the easiest thing in the world to hand fly below 10000' on arrival or departure and some of us do. Its not appropriate at places like HKG,LHR,DXB etc...its just too bloody busy...and after you have stared out at the DXB/LHR/FRA sky through 'two piss holes in the snow' a few times on arrival you soon realise that the trainers were telling the truth during the initial line training when they said you wouldn't necessarily be in any fit condition to hand fly after the 8,10 or 12 hours spent getting there.

I am not even convinced that lack of raw hand flying skills is the greatest challenge our profession faces.

[ejectx3]

I hand fly the maggot regularly , and really enjoy it.

[Trent 972]

The A/C of today are simply not designed to be manipulated manually
Anyone who believes that to be true, should try to get a grip.

[Lookleft]

Of course they are designed to be flown manually. Not a lot has changed in layout since Orville took off. What has changed is the mentality that aircraft are too dangerous to fly manually. SOPs and outsourcing of training has made sure of that.

[By George]

A few people here still don't get it. Of course you can hand fly but with most companies SOP's it loads up the non-flying pilot to the detriment of his primary role of monitoring and cross-checking. MCP selection to support a PF manually flying can get very busy at times. The aircraft are designed for auto-pilot use to allow greater situational awarness, allowance for fatique etc. Not to mention giving the support pilot a free hand to cross check everything.

By all means keep hand-flying skills up, but only when the weather is good, traffic is light and brain is not fatigued.

The thought of some goose hand-flying the Lamborne hold and arrival into EGLL during peak hour traffic is mind-boggling.

[Centaurus]

it loads up the non-flying pilot to the detriment of his primary role of monitoring and cross-checking.

Primary role of monitoring and cross-checking? I thought one of the main problems with long haul flying was the mind-numbing boredom of automation with its monitoring and cross-checking. Surely anyone with a set of eyes and a brain can monitor a few instruments. You can't have it both ways, you know,:ok: Reminds me of the time I was flying a 737 in perfect conditions somewhere over Europe and decided to hand fly at high altitide and follow the VOR tracks on the flight plan.

I told the 300 hour cadet first officer of my intentions to switch off the FD, AP and AT and fly by hand. He sat bolt upright and was all panicked attention and then I nearly wet myself with laughter when he said he had better don his shoulder harness if I was going to hand fly. Clearly he was seriously frightened!

[Howard Hughes]

What a great thread, keep it up guys!

As someone who has only experienced the magic boxes in the last six months, I must admit that if I have a 'what's it doing now moment' I revert straight to raw data, because that's what I know. Gee it must be nice though to have a second pair of hands to sort the automatics, while you're wrestling with the Airplane*.;)

* Spelling deliberate, after all it is from Wichita...:}

[Capn Bloggs]

HH, Flying machines from Wichita are not "airplanes", they're bugsmashers. :}

[Howard Hughes]

Capn Bloggs, aren't they all? It's just the speed and number of bugs that varies!;)

[Gnadenburg]

A few people here still don't get it. Of course you can hand fly but with most companies SOP's it loads up the non-flying pilot to the detriment of his primary role of monitoring and cross-checking.

One of the reasons I believe in raw data type proficiency, is that this "loading up" you refer to is a skill in itself. I suppose it's called "support".

If a support pilot struggles and his capacity is sapped in this role, how will he perform if I have a multiple failure where automation is degraded?

I am expected, as an airline pilot, to perform and put the aircraft safely on the ground when faced with all the multi-failure scenarios. Raw data proficiency in suitable conditions, keeps me honed not only in elemental flying skills, but also in other areas of flight deck performance. For example, it is a skill in itself to not load up your support pilot and to run checklists at suitable times and to manage the workload appropriately.

If I have double hydraulics failure or fly in emergency configuration for example, I need the high levels of capacity to hand fly the aeroplane and manage what could be a MPL/300 hour cadet who's hands will be trying to go everywhere. The outfit I fly with has had two self induced double hydraulic failures due poor flight deck coordination.

A raw data approach every month is enough for me to maintain some of these important skills!

I like this story from early days. New F/O comes whistling around the corner in an A320 at Epping. Weather fluctuating about the minima. Autopilot off, flight directors off, autothrust off.....raw data approach.

Old Captain leans over and re-instates the automatics and the aircraft flys a coupled approach and lands from the minima. On the ground Capt asks the F/O WTF were you doing? F/O explains that in the RAAF they were told to do their raw data flying when they were tired and the weather the worst, to heighten the training value!

I would expect we all realize the inappropriateness of the above; that's what the simulators are for. Hand flying on the line should be a normal currency. Sadly, the big deal that's been made of it, has the new generation terrified of hand flying and they are some of the quickest draws in getting that autopilot in straight after T/O.

[FlareArmed]

I might be out-of-touch with airline flying, but has the simple practice of autopilot , autothrust (maybe leave it on in an A320) and flight director off for a visual approach given way to working like a one-armed paper-hangar on the mode control panel? I used to watch (with comic curiosity) the occasional pilot use the FMC and MCP to over complicate a simple situation where the majority of us would disengage all the automatics and fly the bloody thing.

My usual ports (MEL, SYD, ADL, PER, BNE, CNS, OOL, LST, HBA, CBR) offered daily opportunities to do just that. Many of the comments on this thread strike me as quite naive about the need to use automatics full-time. Raw-data and hand-flying is not some kind of crisis situation.

The comment about the FO being unable to fly a visual circuit into HBA, the need for a shared mental model to do it safely and other such comments would make me turn in my grave if I was in one.

Seriously, have new generation airline pilots degraded to the point where they can't accomplish the most simple flying tasks without automatics? Please tell me they can navigate the terminal area without LNAV; figure a descent without VNAV; hand-fly a visual approach looking out the window; fly an ILS without a flight-director – or is this whole thread just a piss-take.

[ejectx3]

Sadly it's real. Many f/o's I fly with when I suggest an eyeball approach on a sunny day with using only the force is turned down half the time and the autopilot is left in until lined up on final. Tragic.

[crystalballwannabe]

Automation solves many problems and creates many more...

Visual circuits and go arounds with low level offs are great examples of automatics making normal flight manoeuvres quite tricky also LNAV and VNAV approaches that are not runway aligned mean lots of switching and resetting MCPs and heading bugs and flight directors that maybe giving "false" information.

I think Sim time is mostly wasted which is a shame. For the LOE exercise you have most likely read the cheat notes and know what to suspect. For the usual laps around the block for the IR renewal, everyone gets the hang of that after a while... Sim time well spent could provide a answer Jet upset/airspeed failure is prob more useful than an NBD

[virginexcess]

Are any of you guys actually in an airline?

All airlines i have been in (which admittedly is only 2) dont hand the keys of a $250m aircraft to a pilot and tell them to fly how ever they think best suits their need to maintain hand flying proficiency. Most airlines have a "maximum use of automation policy", which is closely monitored through LOSA and FOQA.

The old "back in my day" and " when men were men" is just reliving days gone by and those days are never coming back. In todays environment we are employed to fly the aircraft the way the company wants. If you are in a company that allows total pilot discretion as to the level of automation used, and the operation lends itself to hand flying, then good luck to you and make the most of it. I envy you.

As for those of us who are governed by our SOP's and lack of opportunity to hand fly, then I'm afraid the reality is that the degraded level of skill dictates the need to use automatics as much as the SOP's

My company SOP's dont prohibit our pilots from hand flying, but I'm yet to meet one who thinks that after a 14hr sector a visual approach is the safest option. At least not one who has been doing the job for more than a year. Bearing in mind that if there is an exceedence picked up during the approach he will get a please explain from the safety department.

As i stated earlier, with company's continually looking to drive down training costs, training departments rarely get the opportunity to train any more than the min reg requirements, which is one hand flown ILS a year, and that is usually done from established on final and configured. In my view that is not likely to give a pilot enough confidence to try the same in a real aircraft with 400 punters in the back.

Short haul flying, however, is probably a totally different beast, and i haven't done that for 20 years, and back then we used to hand fly a lot.

[FlareArmed]

virginexcess, I am genuinely saddened by your comments.

I was in an airline (Ansett) and I have to say (after reading this thread) they had a very liberal attitude towards such things; they trained you the best they knew how (and my training/check Captains were simply outstanding), and sent you out to do the job how you saw fit (within reason) – particularly the case for WA, I am told.

The majority of pilots would disconnect the autopilot and turn off the flight director when cleared for a visual approach. A few of the pilots flew raw data departures. Almost all "looked through" the flight director while hand-flying (SIDs etc) and waited for it to catch-up to the current situation rather than follow it blindly. I recall one Captain entering the circuit at Cairns on a visual approach, quite safely hand-flying (and giggling) on a circuit while downwind at 320 KIAS on a "maintain best-speed" approach.

Power and attitude for various manoeuvres was talked about during training and we were expected to know them.

The lowest time pilots were around the 5000 hour mark and the more experienced were 10,000-15000 +.

These days I regularly hand-fly a circuit with no FD after a 15 hour duty and it's a piece of cake. I am in despair about some of the comments on this thread and how the industry is developing.

It seems to me that the airlines are being overrun by a bunch of blouses that have no feel for what it takes to grab a plane by the gonads and put it where it needs to be. The bells and whistles attached to a basic set of wings and engines is great progress, but it should not be turning the pilots into a bunch of eunuchs too scared to fly without them.

[Mister Warning]

Here here.
:ok:

[The Green Goblin]

There there ;)

Well said FA :ok:

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I don't think the big problem is "old blokes" forgetting. What if you never had the ability in the first place-ala cadets? It is like getting your "L" plates, never being allowed to practice driving and then being expected to drive like an ace on a slippery road. They will not have the years of a non-automated cockpit to fall back on with inevitable results I think.

[Keg]

What if you never had the ability in the first place-ala cadets?

There are former cadets out there who are far less reliant on the automatics than many on PPRUNE give them credit for. Whilst I despair for the current generation of cadets coming through, there are in fact cadets from previous generations who went through the same training regimes as their non cadet peers and had to demonstrate their ability to do more than follow the magenta line. I agree that things have changed in the last decade though and I despair as to what may be in the next decade but I don't like the term 'cadet' being attached to the myth that they don't know how to fly a visual approach sans automatics.

[boofhead]

Right on FA.
It is not just FOs who cannot fly. In some airlines I worked for the captains could not fly either. If it did not have an ILS they simply could not manage. Visual Approach? Banned by the Chief Pilot so as not to embarrass the captains.
If I could not at least equal the automatics I would quit.
All that stuff about tired, busy airspace, complex approaches etc is just a way of saying "I'm scared, Mommy!"

[pakeha-boy]

Great post F/A.....but would also agree with the reality of the previous post....his point is also a valid one

I, on every possible occasion,request that the F/O fly visual apps(when conditons are appropriate),ie...no A/P,F/D,A/T......if they cock it up so be it....but in reality for some of these young fellas to "get the penny to drop"...they have to be able to "see" their shortcomings....and that applys to myself also

.....any operation that "Ban,s' these OP,s obviously has not seen their worth.and I have worked for these types.......I dont make the rules,but Ive been known to break a couple

Some of these young fellas that show up in the right seat and have been trained in flight schools in Oz/usa/EU.......show up with just over a couple of hundred hours.....from a single engine #.....thrown into the Airbus series,and your expecting them to hand-fly this stuff.....your bloody joking me!!!!!.....its not right,but its the way it is.......you just have to let them try a couple of times to find out where they really are in their training..........and it doesnt take much to find out,that they are not very far along at all

.....not trying to be disrespectful at all...but this is the stark reality of what some of us are dealing with

[Tee Emm]

I haven't flown for many years but was astonished with a story I heard last year when talking to a domestic 737-800 captain. From what I recall the approach was visual from the north into Sydney 16 and 17 miles out in CAVOK. His female F/O was PF and she asked him if he minded if she disconnected the autopilot to practice a hand flown ILS ready for her up-coming sim check. He said no problems whereupon she thanked him warmly adding that very few captains she flew with would let her hand fly on request. He raised his eyebrows on that remark but thought nothing more.

As the aircraft closed on the localiser and now around 12 miles the captain noticed the PF was still on full automatics and had not yet gone "click-click"
He suggested she disconnect but she said "Not yet, captain - I don't want to overshoot the centre-line so I will leave the AP in" Soon after the AP captured and again the captain hinted that if she was serious about wanting to hand fly she had better do it now rather than leaving it to the flare before going "click-click".

It gets better. With a deep breath she announced she was going to disconnect the AP which she did. A few seconds later the captain suggested she should also disconnect the AT as per Boeing SOP. She said she would leave that until later as it gave better speed control. By now she was flying with both hands on the control column with AT and FD engaged.

The captain then suggested she should turn off the FD if she was serious about hand flying the ILS in CAVOK. She said she would rather leave the FD on in case it was needed for a GA.

Later with all this drama over a straight forward visual approach down the ILS, the captain asked the first officer where she had done her Boeing 737-800 type rating. She replied she had bought it in Australia where the provider insisted that full use of all automatics must be used from the very first simulator session. She had rarely flown without a flight director.

Here then was another classic case of a first officer brought up to only hand fly when all other avenues of automation are exhausted. The company captains were the crux of the problem - not her ability as first officer.

With a typically disinterested captain his attitude would have a marked bearing on her enthusiasm to keep her hand in and in the end it meant she lost the confidence needed to be able to fly the aeroplane by hand. The problem described is much wider than people may think.

[34R]

I couldn't think of anything better than steaming into a circuit at 320 kts, having managed my profile sufficiently to give me a nice level segment, run the gear and flaps and be stable at the appropriate stage in the approach. How rewarding! Or to have done the same thing, made a meal of it, learnt something about myself and applied it to the next approach. Again, how rewarding!

Sadly, some aspects of that era have passed me by, but the onus to learn, make mistakes and limit their reappearance remain. I love making the 737's automatics work for me. Mr Boeing put it there for a reason and if you know it's limitations it works very well. I love even more removing those automatics, doing what it is that I love to do, with a healthy respect for my limitations, and achieving the same result.

I'm sure aviators through the ages have assessed those who carry the torch after them a little harshly. As sure as death and taxes, there will always be someone who operated before you, and did it harder and better with less going for them and more going against them. How we approach our craft within the environment we operate in and restrictions we have imposed on us, I think, is more relevant.

[VH-ABC]

I couldn't think of anything better than steaming into a circuit at 320 kts

How about 321 knots?

[34R]

How about 321 knots?

Now I'm getting excited ;)

[FlareArmed]

Off-the-shelf type ratings can work for a low-time candidate if they can fly properly in the first place. An example are the RAAF Challenger pilots who do a type-rating described as drinking from a fire hose with about 200 hours in their log-book – but punch well above their weight. Much of their line-training is flying an empty aircraft (plenty of circuits, visual approaches and IAPs), generally resulting in a pretty capable pilot, certainly not totally reliant on automatics to fly safely. In fact if the automatics fail, they are more likely to say. "Yahoo", not "Oh hell".

The problem with the off-the-shelf ratings is they are designed with optimistic assumptions about a candidates ability, resulting in a minimalist course to stay competitive with other providers in a race to the bottom. Unless they have a particularly good training Captain and an enlightened flight department, the line-training simply reinforces using automatics exclusively. In the future, the good training Captains will retire and be replaced with iCadets resulting in a kind of "Plesantville" training department – and in the case of Air France – giving the world a couple of pilots that can't fly a basic power and attitude to stay upright while the computers have a hiccup.

[bigles]

Joker89
I can tell you from being in the same position as the AIR FRANCE A330.And the same problem.Your airspeed decays so rapidly, you do not have time to make a committee decision.It's back to basics,attitude and power,once stabilised,solve the problem. Reinstate your your automatics, if possible.No fancy footwork.

[Sarcs]

The problem with the off-the-shelf ratings is they are designed with optimistic assumptions about a candidates ability, resulting in a minimalist course to stay competitive with other providers in a race to the bottom. Unless they have a particularly good training Captain and an enlightened flight department, the line-training simply reinforces using automatics exclusively. In the future, the good training Captains will retire and be replaced with iCadets resulting in a kind of "Plesantville" training department – and in the case of Air France – giving the world a couple of pilots that can't fly a basic power and attitude to stay upright while the computers have a hiccup.

F/A top post mate, mores the pity it's not a fairy tale!:ok:

So what's going to happen when all the holes line up and the aircraft sails past the quadruple redundacies on the automatics and the Captain looks across at the First Officer and says.."What are we going to do now??":sad:

How many crashes causal to the loss of the automatics are acceptable before anyone admits that we may have a problem?:{

[virginexcess]

How many crashes causal to the loss of the automatics are acceptable before anyone admits that we may have a problem?

You've nailed it Sarcs.

It will be when crashes causal to the loss of the automatics outweigh the historic evidence of crashes due to partial incapacitation or loss of SA caused by manual flying.

[Sarcs]

It will be when crashes causal to the loss of the automatics outweigh the historic evidence of crashes due to partial incapacitation or loss of SA caused by manual flying.

VE but surely it would be preferable to be proven wrong prior to the loss of lives due to a loss of automatics and subsequent mishandling while attempting to manually fly the aircraft.

Which is all the more reason that any Oz pilots with a pulse throw their support behind Senators X, Fawcett and co, to hold Albo's circus to Recommendation 9 of the report from the Senate Inquiry into 'Pilot Training and Airline Safety'.

Here is a copy of that recommendation in case anyone's forgotten:

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w448/PAIN_00123/Recommendation9.jpg

[pakeha-boy]

Sarcs....would totally agree and anyone with a vested interest...I reckon that includes many and all...... would back this....no reason not to

Its easy to "monday morning half-back" the Air France crew......I have reservations about the accusations of their "abilitys" to fly this A/C manually.....I think this is is systemic of the environment that we now fly in

The degradation of our manual flight skills is a product of the redundancy of the A/C and systems that we now fly....for those of us that flew equipment before the so-called "new-generation" NG,I beleive will understand the differences.........the differences between 2 and 3 man crews,(which had its issues)the concepts of CRM.....and many more......

The sims rides we do anymore ,are crammed with so much B/S that I question the validity of the training,the fact of going through the 10-15 memory checklists(not all of them),so fast and furious,that that have no time to really seed and grow,in two 4 hr sessions every 6 mnths,split with the other crew member(which some airlines have manged to reduce to once a year)......

When airlines put more emphasis on the dollar cost of training,threats of having to pay for the next checkride yrself if you fail this one,and an attitude of looking at the "odds" of catastrophic failures because of past historys etc.........then you will always have issues,and we are not going forward,we are go backwards.......

Established airlines,legacy Airlines....etc have established themselves with crews that have gone through many training cycles and there hasnt been a huge turnover in pilots,,so the safety culture and the competency value is very high.....you just have to look at there records(in general).............the future will tell,but without experienced competent,seasoned pilots in the cockpit,....it can only lead to trouble