Uni or flying training? (2012)

[teabagYoYo92887]

Hi :)
My name is Tony , currently studying last year in college, i am seriously thinking of going into the avaition industry. I been thinking hard for the past two years. However since i been on the forum i seen some fantastic story and some negative stories on how hard it could be to find the 1st job. i know its hard & my parents are thinking is it worth the risk of spending so much money in a such a unstable industry. :confused:
I sees so many well qualifield pilot struggled to get an interview nevermind a job. :uhoh: doesn't gives me & especially my parents confident.

Fews day ago i thought of another problem should i go to university to completed the degree i've been seeking for or ust go straight to training.

Just wanted to know aswell when you do get your big break would you be able to hold down a full time airline job & studying for a BA degree?
the thing is im worried about if (a big IF) you fail medical test, then your expensive license is worthless then:ugh:

i have a rough idea on which type of course i should be going into?

Any help or comment would be Appreciated

Thanks!

[philltowns]

Get your medical done BEFORE you invest in any flight training. As for university, have a read here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102046

[Re-Heat]

Just wanted to know aswell when you do get your big break would you be able to hold down a full time airline job & studying for a BA degree?

If you want to do it properly, a BA degree is a full-time commitment. Clearly if you were to do it while working, you would be highly committed to those studies as well, so to do it justice would warrant taking longer over a part-time course or OU rather than full-time.

You can't control your rostering either, so even for those few hours of face-to-fact contact a BA would require each week, you would be struggling. Not to mention lugging aronud textbooks to complete the reading.

Yes, I refer to a proper degree - underwater basket-weaving at Barrow Community Polytechnic is not relevant!

[SinBin]

Learning basic English skills would help!

[TAP]

Do it!

I cannot stress how much a degree was of importance to me during my flight training....

It tought me so much.. How to look after myself, work to deadlines and it also showed that results are proportional to the amount of work you put in! ok ,ok, ok, someone is going to come along and state they know all that already but believe me, it gives you the cutting edge over anyone without a degree. :ok:

I started an integrated course after my degree and I could pick out pretty much everyone who didn't do a degree by the way the interacted with others and so could a few of my friends. There are exceptions to the rule, but believe me... the majority fit into the stereotype!

Back to gaining a job..... I have just gained employment with a fantastic airline and i know of someone not getting in as they "lacked" in life experience.... Did they have a degree? no. Dont get me wrong... i know loads who havnt got a degree who fly for airlines.

Above all. It was the best 3 years of my life i wouldnt exchange for anything!!!!!! An obvious biased posting.....

[philltowns]

I'd agree with the idea that, other than the qualifications, uni is useful as it changes you a lot as a person. For a lot of people, its their first time living away from parents, which makes them grow up pretty fast (after the shopping-trolley-surfing and vodka monopoly games, of course :} )

[preduk]

I'm at University the now, Studying Law.

I don't plan on becoming a lawyer, but done the degree for the hell o fit really.

I'm currently getting a Student Loan and Student Bursary, guess where all the money is going?

I will end up with a PPL and a degree when I graduate at the age of 20, and a loan which I don't need to pay back until I earn over £15,000 a year.

Worth it in my opinion.

[teabagYoYo92887]

thanks for reply & my english is fine:mad:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thanks for the reply; my English is fine.

?

On a more serious point; if you wish to study for a degree whilst working in a job such as flying, the only way to do this is part time. If you are looking at a bachelor's degree, then I think that the best starting point would almost certainly be the Open University (http://www.open.ac.uk/new/).

G

:8

[Shakuri]

As a current University student I would suggest you go to University, above all it gives you life experience and also shows that you have the desire to suceed. I believe that altho CTC don't require you to have a degree, the Uni experience as a whole will give you a much better chance of getting through (atleast i hope so anyway).

I'm currently awaiting stage 2 for CTC and i think by the time it comes to stage 3 I will be able to demonstrate the skills I have learnt at Uni, and relate my experience to many of the questions they will no doubt ask.

[matt85]

If I did it again I would probably take some sort of relevant junior position at an airline/airport after college for a few years and do an OU degree or something similar alongside.

'University life experience' is overrated anyway IMO.

[abs_kols]

i have just got my a level results which to be honest aren't that pleasing. i had applied for university with first choice royal Holloway and second choices queen marys for astrophysics. got accepted at queen mary but declined it as i have my heart set on royal holloway. but this means me taking a gap year.
i have been very enthusiastic about being a pilot for really long. my influence is my dad who is a captain and has been flying almost all his life. i have booked my 1st class medical and have also booked my aptitude test with cabair. after these two i am considering going to America for my jaa PPL and then hopefully coming back by November to join the ATPL course at london guild hall uni. i know i have high chances of getting a job as the situation in india is really good and i am a uk/indian dual national.
although i feel that i may be missing out by not going university after the gap year. my other option is that i do my fATPL then go to university for a 3 year course and then complete my flying as the fATPL is valid for 5 years. :confused:

[Mohit_C]

I have a question. By when will it be a necessity to have a university degree to be able to work for an airline, if ever?

[DC-8]

By 2010 for AirEuropa.

[Shay]

Hmm that's scary... :sad:

I can't afford university as well :(

Damn. I know I should get a degree but I can only do one or the other...

[Mohit_C]

DC-8, do you think Air Europa could influence other airlines to make having a University degree a must to being able to work?
I was calculating that if I do the integrated ATPL by this October 2007 I should in theory finish by April-May 2009, but if I do the modular way, it would take me much longer. But then afterwards I have to start getting more flying hours...what do you people suggest is worth doing, modular or integrated?

I know there is a thread on this discussion but I mean one at this moment in time.

Thanks.

[DC-8]

DC-8, do you think Air Europa could influence other airlines to make having a University degree a must to being able to work?

I don't think it will be a must for all airlines. However many companies prefer pilots with uni studies...

[ProPwannabe]

Basically guys this is what i want to get within the next 3 years.

Im not young anymore, 25 yrs old!
spent the last 4 years as a cabin crew!

my requirements:
a degree
a CPL
a course no longer than 3 years
as cheap as possible (around 50k)
a good university with good reputation
a university with a good student life or hot girls! (im serious about this one!) 4yrs as cabin crew has had a serious influence on me to have this requirement ;) ;)

is that too much to ask?? :ugh:

what do you guys recommend?

Has anyone been to buckinghamshire new university?
ba(hons) aviation with cpl?

[Genghis the Engineer]

What A-levels do you have PW?

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well you'll need those or something equivalent for degree entry unfortunately. An ND might get you somewhere, but graphic design hasn't any significant maths content so won't get you into any technical degree course.

G

[ladybird380]

Yeah, I've got 2 friends did their training with dady's money and now both flying Airbus, both under 25 and didn't have any degrees. I am not sure if they had A Levels either. :ugh:Nothing wrong with being lucky bastards but if you can afford why not do a degree cos in future the companies will be very very picky employing their pilots if they are not already. There won't be many places to fill, just my opinion... or follow the trend and save up for a TR instead of bothering to study:sad:

LB380

[Scott Duch]

I'm starting my degree in aeronautical engineering in september then going into pilot training after....you have to have somthing to fall back on, your ATPL is alot of rubbish and 100% worthless if somthing stops you from being a commercial pilot....medical for example. If you left school and went straight into flying and was a pilot for so long andthen lost your job for some unforseen reason and couldn't fly again what would you do? With the amount of people going to university these you can't find a decsent replacement job with grades obtained from school.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm starting my degree in aeronautical engineering in september then going into pilot training after....you have to have somthing to fall back on, your ATPL is alot of rubbish and 100% worthless if somthing stops you from being a commercial pilot....medical for example. If you left school and went straight into flying and was a pilot for so long andthen lost your job for some unforseen reason and couldn't fly again what would you do? With the amount of people going to university these you can't find a decsent replacement job with grades obtained from school.....

Just reinforcing that point, during my stint as a university lecturer I had an exceptional student on an RAF scholarship. Speaking to their UAS CO they were a strong candidate straight through to fast jets, from my perspective teaching Aero-Eng they were headed straight for a first. (You can hate some people, I was a much more mediocre student on both counts.)

Then a minor medical problem cropped up - just enough to stop them having a full RAF pilot medical. Said student is still happy flying privately, still in the RAF, but took a step sideways into Engineering branch - which their degree permitted without any trouble. Best guess is that in not too many years in the future they'll probably be a FJ SEngO somewhere.


On another tack - I'd still agree with many others that if ALL you ever want to do is fly, then a degree may well be a waste of time and money. But if you are, say, 20-25 now - that's 40+ years worth of career ahead of you, and a degree taken now may offer many later career development options beyond the captaincy. Of course you can do a degree later, but may well have a lot of financial commitments then which make it much harder than now without much in the way of financial commitments.

G

[Re-Heat]

Though of course, getting a degree after losing a medical may not be an option, if at that stage, one has a family, children, and needs to earn.

Yes, of course, different people are suited to different options - circumstances differ markedly. However, there is a huge difference between an 18-year old who foregoes university to take up a dead-end job solely for the purposes of earning, as they have their head in the clouds, and an 18-year old who foregoes university based upon a strategy to get into the flightdeck more quickly revolving around networking, generating a backup plan, and earning top-dollar for their time.

Of course, there are also those who go to university and waste their experience as well, so it is extremely difficult to speak in generalisations at all on the subject. Furthermore, university at a later age is not the same experience as university at 18.

Bottom line is that different routes suit different people. Having researched them thoroughly (not needlessly throwing away opportunities), you are in a better position long-run.


Here is an example of someone I know:

- Spent 4 years on a university degree at a top UK university
- No parental cash
- Achieved PPL before university, progressing to ATPL from savings in year 1 of university (savings from weekend job at 6th form/uni)
- Working as FI on fATPL during years 2-4.
- Graduated with upper second
- Walked directly into a job with a regional with no debt upon graduation, due to effective networking

Fully backed-up, no debt, highly educated, university-experienced at 22 with a job. The degree being more than a piece of paper, but also a route into another network and career if it all goes to pot due to sickness.

Can't beat that route.


3 Years at Foggy Bottom technical college to study Britney Spears Film Studies may be considered to be a waste of time though.

[belleh]

3 years and about £15k in bills for a piece of paper you hang on the wall and think is some kind of 40 year insurance policy is nuts.

This. A thousand times, this. I finished a BSc Computer Science 6 weeks or so ago. Admittedly, economically this is a horrifically bad time to be graduating. However, right now with a fresh as they come degree (hell, not even officially issued yet, I don't even know my final award) I've been on job seekers allowance and housing allowance for the duration of this post university period. I'm not limiting myself to just IT jobs either, and am prepared to work anywhere in the country for the right job, anywhere in the North East for anything else.

The reality is, most employers (especially in IT) want experience too. Training someone costs a lot, and it's perceived that there are a lot of already perfectly trained individuals out there (is this ringing any bells with airlines and newly qualified pilots?). The end result is that I'm looking at what are pretty close to minimum wage jobs, feel I've missed out on three years of earning potential while simultaneously getting myself into £xx,000 debt and have wasted 3 years of my prime; I'm now 23. Do you honestly think that if I (somehow) became a commercial pilot now, and then in 20 years time lost my medical, this degree would be worth anything? Hell, it's not worth much now. The piece of paper is expected, it's not anything special, it's just a box to tick. The experience is what gets you to the interview and beyond. I'm not one of these people who say they're looking for a job when they're not, I do have a few leads now and am fairly confident I'll have a job quite soon. But it has taken a LOT of application work, and it isn't likely to lead to anything stellar. But I'll take any job over no job right now, regardless of its merits.

Given all of the above, a degree is insurance for nothing. As time pushes on it'll rapidly become less relevant. I'm not going to deny that it can't hurt to have one once you've got it, and for some people perhaps it's the right move. But relying on it as some form of golden bullet to not be flipping burgers if you can't be a pilot in 20 years is close to fairytale land.

Assuming I had a minimum wage job (I'm intelligent and a good leader, it'd be more very quickly) for 3 years and taking into account debts incurred from university, I'll be down somewhere in the order of £50k as a direct result of university. Probably more. Perhaps in the longer term I'll recoup that in increased earnings, but that assumes landing a job where a degree is required and experience begins to build. It also assumes a world where a degree really means something, and I'm sorry to say that I was appalled at the level of intelligence of many I saw at university. Increasingly, degrees are being watered down. Admittedly, I did not go to Oxbridge.

I recognised all of the above early into my second year, but felt I was too time and money commited by that point to back out. The bottom line is, a degree on its own is a lot more worthless than many will lead you to believe. By all means get solid A-Levels and job related qualifications etc. But don't expect that degree that's been gathering dust for 20 years to be dusted off and land you a £35k job; it just wont. There are of course reasons to get a degree, but I'd think long and hard about whether a degree is truely right for you, and for what reasons. If your reasons contain words like "backup", well then I'd suggest double and triple checking the validity of that assumption.

Apologies for the long post.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

No apology needed.

Speaking personally if I lost my job or medical now I don't think I'd care much about my CV and qualifications because I'd very likely start my own business. I can't see myself wanting to join the rat race, done a suit, go corporate or do anything where my CV will be asked for.

Why spend £15k and 3 years to get a certificate when for that money you could easily start a retail business, by equipment and a van or set up a production facility.

For that matter if I was in my 40's and found myself with 10,000hrs jet command time but no pilots license and applying to Tescos for the job of store manager I might have a bit more to talk about than explain why I didn't do a degree twenty years ago. I loved University and I actually did go on to use my degree in a graduate job for four years. My degree is also useful in my flying job. I'm not anti-degree.

Its just this trite phrase about a degree being a useful backup irritates me a bit because I think its a very un-useful backup.


Everybody is different of course and there are no right answers.

WWW

[Genghis the Engineer]

Its just this trite phrase about a degree being a useful backup irritates me a bit because I think its a very un-useful backup.

I agree, it's not a backup because it doesn't generally qualify you to do something. A degree is either good because you just want to do it, or a useful part of your overall career plan. If it doesn't meet either of those criteria, don't waste your time.

Personally I have two degrees and have used them constantly throughout my career. But, I'm not an airline pilot, I'm an aviation boffin who flies.

G

[Scott Duch]

I do think degrees are a great thing to have behind you. It's not just the degree but other advantages that aren't instantly apparent. When you leave school...you've just come out of an environment of learning and heading into uni you'll continue to learn and i believe do your best. You won't have big financial commitments such as a mortgage, family or car etc....Once you graduate you'll be older, much more mature and have a 'wiser head' and make more educated decisions. I'm going to uni whem im 17 if i graduate i'll leave uni at 22. I wouldn't called that old and who says you have to go into pilot training straight away, you might want to make some money for yourself after secondary school and university being taught all this stuff, you might now want to put what you've learn't into practice then head into flying. I personally know one person who graduated with a aero-mech degree and did a year with a engineering firm, made some money and then went into flying.....he has experience using his degree. On the other hand i know someone who graduated with the mech engineering degree went straight into flying and then lost his medical and thus right to fly, he applied to a engineering company and got in a week later.

This isn't the only right way but nor is it wrong and i think i have proven that with the two accounts above but i've settled on what route im going to pursue.

[FlyingSportsman]

Ill keep it short & sweet- the end goal is to be a jet jockey. In my last year of A-levels and coming around to UCAS applications. My question Is,
#1- Would you go to university at all if you're certain you want to fly for the airlines.
#2- Having not considered Uni till recently, I've only looked down the engineering road, or airline studies with pilot studies, any thoughts on courses?

N.B am aware of the search function, just not a topic ive found alot on.

[Depone]

Yes, go to university and add life experience and a skill-set to your cv. Getting a job in aviation will be very difficult. With a relevant degree you will be better placed to get a back up job while you wait for your flying job or you will make yourself a better all round character. All this depends on having enough money to go to university and pay for flight training.

[SloppyJoe]

Try, advanced search. University, title only, wannabes forum.

[aozc]

A degree for the sake of putting on a CV... I wouldn't.

However for a backup career, it's more or less a must. You must consider the big chance of never landing a paying job. If you can get a backup career that pays well without doing the uni, then you could probably skip it.

[Sagit89]

Dear Tony,

I did not read all the replies do to the lack of time, but what bothers me is how seriously thinking you are? You say you study something at college and by the end of the college you started seriously thinking about going to aviation. You already know that the route you are considering is a money consuming one and therefore I wanted to ask you when did you start seriously think about aviation?

If it is just now on the last year of college after watching some series or hearing some stories I'd say don't do it! I believe (sorry pals) aviation is the industry where you better not go withough honest fanatism which lasts for years (if not all your life preferably). I personally studied aviation related course at Uni and I was somehow bothered by people who joined this course just our of fresh interest. They were not sure what to join so they joined this one. Of course there were just very few of those, but it is quite disturbing to me. By the most of those people were not interested in the details of some modules, but they only loved the idea of aviation. Like: aviation wow flying awesome, but this vector calculus with aerodynamics is damn boring along with this avionics can't understand can't be bothered.

Therefore I want to ask you how serious is your interest? If you fanaticly want to become a pilot do it! It is hard to land a first AIRLINER job people are whinning about but it is not that hard to start instructing! Pay 6k euro. Get FI License. Work for year or two (maybe you will love it and will desire to stay getting into better FTO with better pay). And then find a jet job! Also as you live in Leeds I would suggest you go modular (since no living expanses required) since modular is a perfect way to get to FI with less money spent. Just think, do you REALLY want it?

[limesoda]

University Life Experience? What?

You mean going out on pretty much most evenings and getting bladdered, coupled with f£$*ing about with your mates?

Really. :ok:

[BerksFlyer]

And your age really shows in that post charliegarner.

University is what you make of it. Chances are, if you go to a good one, do a worthwhile course and get a good grade, you will have matured and learned a hell of a lot. Yes, a lot I people who go to 'university' should not be there, but if you have a clear goal and are motivated, like any wannabe on this forum should be, then you are likely to gain from the experience if you are academically able. There is so much more to university than the degree itself.

I speak from experience. Unlike yourself.

[student88]

Tony, the original poster started this thread in 2007. I think he's probably done with uni by now. Then ProWannabe started it again in 2009.

FS, how academic are you? On all accounts av engineering is hard stuff. I know a few people who have struggled through the course and just as many who have given up half way through.

If I was in your position I would find a job where you can earn a respectable amount of cash, perhaps get a trade or commercial experience. WWW mentioned how if he was to lose his job as an airline pilot that he would start his own business as a degree doesn't necessarily offer you the redundancy most think it does, consider this as some degrees are more desirable than others to employers. Even though you want to become an airline pilot, a degree in aviation management with pilot studies might not be the best one for you. Personally, I would have studied pure business or geography as I have a honest interest in these subjects (I don't have a degree yet).

The trouble with university is that almost everybody has a degree these days, even still, not having one won't stop you from getting a pilot job when you are older. I tend to disagree these days when people say "if two pilots go for a job, one has a degree and the other doesn't - the one with the degree will get the job". Assessment takes into consideration more than just academic qualifications. You might have degree in physics but fly like crap. Also, you don't have to go to university to become wise to the world and 'grow up' like everyone mentions on here.