GIV Crash - LFMQ / Le Castellet

[MikeNYC]

Updated thread title to Gulfstream as new information arises...

Six Trapped After Jet Crashes In France (http://news.sky.com/story/959853/six-trapped-after-jet-crashes-in-france)


Six Trapped After Jet Crashes In France
Emergency services are trying to put out the blazing Mystere-Falcon which came down in France.

A private jet has crashed in flames at the end of a runway in the south of France a police source told AFP.

Emergency services are trying to put out the blazing Mystere-Falcon 20 whose passengers are reportedly foreign. The accident happened at Castellet airport, between Marseille and Toulon.

[StressFree]

'Emergency services are trying to put out the blazing Mystere-Falcon 20 whose passengers are reportedly all US citizens. The accident happened at Castellet airport, between Marseille and Toulon.

Unconfirmed reports say the passengers were all US citizens and five are believed to have died.'

[Monkey Boy]

It looks like it's not a Falcon 20, but a GIV (yet to be confirmed)! If I'm wrong, of course I'll remove this post.

[Tmbstory]

Monkey Boy:

The photo shown above is a Falcon 20 and not a Gulfstream.

[Stratocaster]

French news websites report it was a G-IV with three American crew members on board (aged 24, 61 and 30) who -unfortunately- died. They mention a technical issue in flight. The aircraft took off from Nice and reportedly broke up in two, with one part ending up in a nearby lake and the other taking fire.

[MikeNYC]

Latest from CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/13/world/europe/france-plane-crash/index.html):

Paris (CNN) -- Three Americans died when a private jet crashed at a small airport in the south of France, a local official said Friday.
Two men, aged 24 and 51, and a 30-year-old woman were on board the plane when it crashed at Castellet airport, said Didier Couve, spokesman for the Prefecture of the Var department.
The three were the only people on the plane, Couve said.
A spokeswoman for the airport said emergency services are on site.
The plane crashed at the end of the runway, she said.
The aerodrome is between the cities of Marseille and Toulon, on the Mediterranean coast.

[Monkey Boy]

Monkey Boy:

The photo shown above is a Falcon 20 and not a Gulfstream.




Of course - the press never make mistakes do they? My source is a little more reliable than Sky News.

[MikeNYC]

Possible aircraft (unverified):

https://twitter.com/BizJetBlogger/status/223794946463891456
Gulfstream IV msn 1005 / N823GA crashes in France on a ferry flight from Nice to La Castellet, all 3 crew reported dead. #bizav #bizjet

[oldchina]

At least we haven't had the compulsory "tragic accident" description, as opposed to the usual comical or joyful ones, of course.

[His dudeness]

A flightplan for N823GA Nice-Le Castellet existed. So, thats a high likelyhood.

All other G4 out of Nice went some places else...

[CaptainProp]

1986 build Gulfstream IV msn 1005 / N823GA operated by Universal Jet Aviation as flight number UJT823.... Flew ATH-SAW-NCE and then ferry to Le Castellet by the looks of things.....

[Zeffy]

Pilot’s guide – Aéroport International du Castellet (http://www.aeroportducastellet.com/infos-pilotage-en/)

What approaches are available?

The airport web site says an ILS -- but AIP does not appear to have one listed.https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/aip/enligne/PDF_AIPparSSection/IAC/AD/2/1208_AD-2.LFMQ.pdf

[jr of dallas]

Jepp's shows only NDB and circling approaches

[Tony Mabelis]

MSN 1005.......First production GIV.

[sitigeltfel]

La Provence reporting that the two flight deck crew age 61 and 24, and the hostess aged 30, were the only victims.

Le Castellet | Crash d'un jet au Castellet : trois morts | La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/article/a-la-une/crash-dun-jet-au-castellet-trois-morts)

[Trim Stab]

Zeffy,

Definitely no ILS, landed there dozens of times.

Runway is on a plateau and subject to strong cross winds and turbulence. Anybody got the METARS yet?

[Globalstream]

Le Castellet has several circling NDB approaches and as has been mentioned, there are several gotchas. That strong turbulence is suddenly blanketed by the treeline from about 25 feet or so and the deceiving, " J" shaped runway can greatly compound float. Not an Aspen or Samedan, but one to be respected.

I have worried about an accident at Castellet and it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a late touchdown and departure from the runway. I think it also sits on a plateau from memory.

[LGW Vulture]

Again, its a Universal Jet Aviation operated aircraft, the plug needs to be pulled!

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/479148-princes-jet.html

....a note I made some time ago!! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Zeffy]

IS-BAO + Wyvern Wingman + ARG/US Platinum endorsements.

Universal Jet Aviation Inc :: Safety First :: +1 561-989-0025 (http://www.ujet.com/commitment.htm)

Universal Jet Aviation Inc :: Aircraft Charter GIV N823GA :: +1 561-989-0025 (http://www.ujet.com/fleet/N823GA/N823GA.htm)

[LGW Vulture]

You can get any accreditation if you are willing to pay for it! :mad:

[stepwilk]

G4 crashed at Castellet, apparently on takeoff or landing, no details on that yet but it's on the airport. Three dead, two men and woman, all crew. No pax aboard.

Official: 3 Americans die as private jet crashes in France - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/13/world/europe/france-plane-crash/)

[Airbubba]

Already posted here: http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/490476-falcon-20-crash-lfmq-le-castellet.html

[sevenstrokeroll]

while it is hard to see, the photo in the above cnn link shows the port side thrust reverser deployed.

from this I gather that the plane aborted/rejected the takeoff...though it is still too soon to be sure.

going off the end of a runway, attempting to stop...always llook for thrust reverser position

[bubbers44]

It is not a Falcon 20, I flew it, the horizontal stabilizer looks like a Gulfstream IV. Since they were landing there they probably landed long and couldn't stop. Usually the FO gets the empty legs so may have played into the crash. He was young and the captain gave him too much leeway on landing. Unfortunate but I have let new guys land a bit long too but at some point, I have said land now or go around. You want to help the new guys but there is a limit on how much you can help them without endangering your flight.

[falconflier]

My conclusion: pilot entered stall and pulled back on the flight controls as per French training procedure

While I am no fan of the operator or its president, isn't it a bit early to stomp on the dead and monday morning quarterback? Three souls perished yesterday.

[filejw]

Hey 44 if you had to do a go-round you made a mistake too, just as much as the new be. FYI been doing Operating Experiance for close to 30 years. Just don't let them get so far.... :rolleyes:

[bubbers44]

We don't think the French really teach that way. Airbus might say the Airbus is unstallable in normal mode but dought if they teach it. I hope not.

[bubbers44]

file, I never went around once in 23,000 hrs unless it was low weather. I made the FO land every time because he didn't want to go around either. Going around isn't a big deal, by the way. It is part of every instrument approach. I think letting your FO make decisions prepares him for becoming a captain. Micro managing him doesn't. What do you think?

[Nordstrom]

Plenty of runway
Wx seems reasonable.

TR deployment on landing is normal, if only one deployed still no big deal, can land and stop no problem with a bit more brake application. Not sure of the #s but I suspect in the mid to high 3000s

A number of things could have contributed to the accident, to many to mention. Could have been anyone of us.

Thoughts go out to the families and friends

[galaxy flyer]

The requisite amount of Pprune accident speculation. The facts appear to be:

1. US registered G IV flown by a known US operator
2. Occurred at LFMQ, LE Castellet, frequent "parking spot" when Nice is full
3. Wreckage is off the far end of runway
4. 3 crew died, RIP.

Beyond that, the BEA will have investigate.

GF

[Smudger]

Mayday, your parting comment was crass in the extreme. Have some respect for the victims.

[CaptainProp]

Usually the FO gets the empty legs so may have played into the crash.

"Usually"?! Really?! Why would that be? Hire the wrong type of guys?

My philosophy is that the less experience a colleague has the more sectors should he/she be PF on, as long as there are no special conditions calling for anything else. For example bad weather combined with first time landing at an airport, company procedures requiring Cpt to perform the landing or if someone feels that "this one I'd prefer to be PNF on to get a chance to observe it" for whatever reason they may feel that that is a good idea to do.

There is, as far as I understand, and despite some comments here, no doubt that it was Universal Jet Aviation's G-IV sn 1005. Apparently a source withing the company made this statement last night:

"Universal Jet Aviation confirms an aviation accident involving one of our Gulfstream IV aircrafts at Le Castellet, France, and we currently have no further details concerning the circumstances of this incident,"

As to what caused the accident I'll let the authorities do their job....

CP

[sitigeltfel]

Var-Matin giving unattributed report that the aircraft landed late/long on the runway.

Selon nos informations, l'aéronef aurait touché terre tardivement sur la piste.Trois morts dans l'accident | Var-Matin (http://www.varmatin.com/la-seyne-sur-mer/trois-morts-dans-laccident.920416.html)

Another report from Var-Matin with more photos and a Google Earth picture of the airfield. The crash site is at the bottom right corner in the trees bordering the lake.

Trois morts dans un crash de jet privé au Castellet (VIDEO) | Var-Matin (http://www.varmatin.com/la-seyne-sur-mer/trois-morts-dans-un-crash-de-jet-prive-au-castellet-video.920052.html)

[pistulaza]

Anybody have info about LW? The Fuel there is extremely expensive, may be they also were a bit heavy?


R.I.P.

[Hotel Tango]

Just an observation. I may have seen it wrong but from the video I got the impression that the main wreckage was at the end, but well to the left, of the runway. Perhaps it was indeed a G/A and subsequent stall.

[Victorian Dad]

Personally I think we should all not speculate in to what is a tragedy to the families of the crew involved.
The DGCA FAA NTSB and the Manufacturers will make the final decision on this incident.
As a GIV-GV pilot with over 10,000 hours on type based in europe its always disturbing to hear when one is lost.

[Hotel Tango]

By the way, can't the mods change the post's title? It most definitely was not a Falcon. Why is this still in the title?

[MikeNYC]

By the way, can't the mods change the post's title? It most definitely was not a Falcon. Why is this still in the title?

I started the thread based on the initial information indicating it was a Falcon. When it came to light it was a Gulfstream, I edited my initial post and title but it does not seem to have edited the thread title, and I don't believe I'm able to do that. Mods should be able to sort it out, but haven't jumped in yet.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Title sorted

VD. My apologies. I've changed the setting that made viewing the thread compulsary for you

Rob

[bubbers44]

Don't worry about the title, it was a GulfsteamIV. None of us has any idea how it ended up off the end of the runway so we will wait for the accident report. I am sorry if my report of the new guys flying the empty legs were normal I appologize. That is how we did it to give the passengers a smooth landing while the new guy got experience. Everybody has their own procedure.

[mutt]

I am sorry if my report of the new guys flying the empty legs were normal I appologize We do the same thing.

Hotel Tango, do you really have to speculate like that? Are you GIV qualified?

Mutt

[noneya]

This was in the Miami Herald this morning.

Two South Florida men killed in a plane crash in France - Broward - MiamiHerald.com (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/14/2895550/pembroke-pines-man-among-three.html?story_link=email_msg)

Prayers to the families!

[Hotel Tango]

mutt, I'm sorry, not my intention to upset anyone. I just got the impression from the video that the a/c was well to the side of the runway. Speculation is human and a fact of life, GIV qualified or not. I did quite clearly stipulate that "I may be wrong" and "perhaps", but you're right, I should have kept my thoughts to myself.

[stuckgear]

LGW Vulture Statement 1:

You can get any accreditation if you are willing to pay for it! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif


yes, you can, and paying for it requires corporate investment to act on the recommendations of the auditor in order to recieve accreditation, evidencing the recommendations made have been undertaken and re-audit.

Or, are you suggesting that any/all would provide accreditation by way of a brown paper envelope ?

I've worked closely with Wyvern, ARG/US, FSF and found them all to be highly professional.


LGW Vulture Statement 2:

Again, its a Universal Jet Aviation operated aircraft, the plug needs to be pulled!


So, before any facts have been made public, or any investigation has been initiated, let alone completed you have passed judgement and determined the cause as being management?


Seeing as both dumba$$ statements come from the same poster, one could consider that LGW Vulture has a personal agenda.

[LGW Vulture]

One could consider that stuckgear is a dumbass apologist.

Close to the bone perhaps stuckgear?

I have no personal agenda whatsoever - I just try to not to touch certain operators - UJA is certainly one.

[Jetstar2Pilot]

I've kinda' been 'lurking' here watching this thread and the comments made therein.

Dumb question?????

Why on this forum is there sooooo much bantering..?? I almost hate to open a particular thread....to see all the BS going back and forth.....is that the way a "Professional" forum ought to evolve....?? Just asking.

I've been involved as a professional pilot for 38 years (this year) and don't quite get why some of the submitters have already "solved" this accident.

In my humble opinion.....we all need to wait for the investigators to submit data......for example.....when the CVR is played....we will know quite a bit more.

Am I wrong in my thinking? If so, please tell me.

I am soooooo sorry for the loss of life of the 3 folks. One pilot is 60, the other is 24.......one guy's career is in the process of winding down...the other pilots is (was) just starting......so sad. I feel very bad for the flight attendant.

The Gulfstream makes a wonderful plane.......(all models) I hope the investigators determine a cause.......(I won't even attempt to speculate......wasn't there!!!!)

Okay.....I'll shut up now......thanks for listening....

Fly Safe my fellow aviators!!!!!:ok::ok:

[Trolltuner]

Jetstar2 Pilot,

:D

Tom

[Hotel Tango]

Rumour Network maybe ?????

[deadeye]

This was a tough day for us all. The parking shortage in LFMN and the subsquent requirement to ferry to LFMQ should be reviewed by the authorities. I was flying at the same time and had dropped off pax in a smaller airport, that had no parking, but was able to ferry into LFMN. There were strong gusty winds from the west, during that period.
Hopefully all the facts will be reviewed. That extra ferry leg at the end of a day can be a challenge.

[dirk85]

We also had to ferry to another airport (Cannes) the very same day from Nice, after a long duty, with an interesting strong and gusty crosswind, that together with the not so long rwy made it a challenging experience...
So sad to hear this story. :(

[Aviation Spirit]

According to a witness who saw the crash and reported to me, aircraft touched down middle of runway then deployed reverses before going to the left into the trees.

[BlueVolta]

Parking space in southern France in summer is quite a problem, but if some airports might be challenging for tired or undertrained crews, flying a couple of minutes further can bring you to less glamourous but with a lot of parking spaces airports like LFML or LFMT.

The BEA will highlight the probable causes and make recommendations nevertheless we can still speculate on the causes of this crash on this forum.

Southern France with the mistral blowing is not an easy place to fly especially if you have in mind to do a kiss landing...

[Bleedvalve]

Just wondering after flying 3 legs, ATH-SAW-NCE, then the ferry, how long were their day?
Knowing VIP flying, a 3 legger can turn out to be a very long day.

BV

[galaxy flyer]

Two weeks ago, I was scheduled to do LAX-NCE, Swissport said there might not be room for RON. I said duty day over, find room please. We got 12 hours and repositioned to LFML for three days. It might NOT have worked out and we would had to do something different. Jepp did offer LFMQ, BTW. In the future, I think I might plan for Lyon Bron, a bit farther, but, IMO, nicer than LFML and, maybe, LFMQ.

GF

[clouddancer77]

The G-IV incorporates a stick shaker to prevent stall entry in flight (T-tail aircraft need this system). The crash photo clearly shows deployment of both thrust reversers which requires a weight-on-wheels signal indicating that the aircraft had touched down on runway 13.

Based on my own experience in flying all of the outstanding airframes produced by Gulfstream Aerospace over the years it appears on the surface that this accident was caused by a loss of control on the ground. The fact that a 24 year old pilot was part of the crew mixed in with a dead-head flight and a runway width of only 98' may prove to have contributed to this very tragic accident.

[taq511]

What will happen, if you land in Nice, and just say, sorry, unfit to fly the ferry? Fine your company?

[galaxy flyer]

Don't know, haven't tried that idea. There is plenty of room on the ramps, IF they just tow planes into "herringbone" compacted parking plan, see KTEB, DXB, KVNY, EGGW, the list goes on except en France.

GF

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

The PIC in this video is the young pilot that lost his life in this tragedy:
GoPro Gulfstream GIV Cockpit Video - YouTube

RIP

[Jetstar2Pilot]

Awwwww How Sad

RIP is a proper comment. Thanks for posting this

[Domi]

Two weeks ago, I was scheduled to do LAX-NCE, Swissport said there might not be room for RON. I said duty day over, find room please. We got 12 hours and repositioned to LFML for three days. It might NOT have worked out and we would had to do something different. Jepp did offer LFMQ, BTW. In the future, I think I might plan for Lyon Bron, a bit farther, but, IMO, nicer than LFML and, maybe, LFMQ.And what about LFKJ or LFKF ? Lovely place to relax and less than 30' from NCE. But extreme caution in LFKF if the wind speed exceeds 20kts from the North West.

[Trim Stab]

taq511 What will happen, if you land in Nice, and just say, sorry, unfit to fly the ferry? Fine your company?


They make you pay a very steep fee for emergency overnight parking.

If people try it on too much I expect they will have to go PPR, which will be a nuisance those of us who plan properly when going to Nice.

[His dudeness]

If people try it on too much I expect they will have to go PPR, which will be a nuisance those of us who plan properly when going to Nice.

That would fit into the times, don`t you think?

[CaptainProp]

I have used LFTH for parking several times and its a great little airport just on the coast and I always found Signature there to be very helpful. They have some restrictions (I think) on opening times though so you need to plan ahead for departures. If I remember correct they are closed a couple of hours or so in the middle of the day as well in the summer.... I would call and check before going again.

[His dudeness]

They have some restrictions (I think)

You can say that.


From:

Home / Home - Website Interface (http://www.toulonppr.com/index.php/eng/Accueil2)


You are an airline business :

This site allows you to make an permission request to operate a flight of business aviation at Toulon-Hyeres airport. A request for prior permission is required (4 hours prior) to operate a business aviation flight or a private flight at Toulon-Hyeres airport.

The regular commercial flights, charter flights and medical evacuations are not affected by this service.
Requests are sent to :
Toulon-Hyeres airport operations service
Fax : 00 33 (0) 4 94 57 01 83
Mail : [email protected]
SITA : TLNAPXH


Signature are not allowed to this for you. You have to have your own account.

Now, if you are a scout and read very carefully, you`ll find that on the airports official website under the headline "You are an airline business:" (WTF? PVT flight/airline business?) :

http://www.toulon-hyeres.aeroport.fr/en/site_aeroport/contenu/informations/services_and_businesses/private_planes_and_helicopters

Signatures website won`t tell you that either btw. Most likely a minor detail for an FBO...to be honest though they at least told me I got to get the PPR when I called them.

Apart from that, it is a nice airport...

[CaptainProp]

Hmm, interesting. We never used to have any problems with late (last minute) flights in and out of there as long as the airport was open.....

[mutt]

http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2012/n-ga120713.en/pdf/n-ga120713.en.pdf

The accident report was finally issued.