CAA Military Accreditation

[Trim Stab]

Unfortunately the €urocrats have ordained, in Article 10 of the Aircrew Regualtion, that
Quote:
In order for holders of military flight crew licences to obtain Part-FCL licences, they shall apply to the Member State where they served.
So for a UK military pilot to apply to an ATO outside the UK might prove problematic.




BEagle - yes I saw that you posted that earlier. But surely that is only relevant if a QMP is seeking automatic accreditation for their experience (eg only a UK QMP can get automatic accreditation at a UK FTO).

What legal impediment is there to stop a UK QMP applying to a non-UK EASA FTO? I suspect that their application would be treated on individual merit. For example, in France, even French QMPs do not have "automatic" rights - they have to submit their logbooks to an FTO, the FTO submits a file to the DGAC, and the DGAC sends back to the FTO a minimum syllabus. This is the same for non-EASA QMPs who apply to French FTOs (eg ex Algerian Air Force etc).

I can't see why a British QMP would be treated any differently. I'm willing to make a preliminary enquiry at my local French FTO if anybody wants to at least explore the option.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

No, this is not true. You can do your CPL skill test on a twin-engine aircraft as long as the FTO has the required approval. You will find that most FTOs that have DA42s in their training fleet have this approval.

Thanks for the clarification, Trim Stab; I did see the comment that:

"The skill test(s) will be conducted by the holder of a Flight Examiner Certificate issued in accordance with Part-FCL, in,
• an appropriate class or type of military aeroplane, suitably equipped for the purpose, which has an EASA civilian equivalent class or type, or
• a civilian aeroplane of the appropriate class following training to the satisfaction of the Head of Training of an ATO, Or
• an appropriate type of civilian aeroplane provided the applicant has completed the Part-FCL requirements for inclusion of that type in a Part-FCL licence except the type rating skill test."

... so I presume that overrides the "BFJT graduates shall use a SE/SP aircraft" line. Presumably it's the "satisfaction of the Head of Training of an ATO" line that's important, as otherwise you'd need to satisfy the third bullet point, negating your Part O credits?

If I now understand that correctly, they perhaps could have written it in a slightly clearer manner...!

[Trim Stab]

Yes, you are correct - the second bullet point covers the option of taking the skills test on a MEP. You just need to find an ATO which has an approved CPL program on MEPs (which in reality means DA42 since it would be uncompetively expensive on any other aircraft).

[High_Expect]

Next few questions.... (hoping that TrimStab is correct and that as a FJ mate I can do ATPL Theory then direct to a MEP course for MEP Skills test + IR.)

Does anyone know a good FTO with Ex Mil FIs that have a DA42?

Also what is the option for doing the ATPL theory credit (all 14 exams) then doing just the skills test for the issue of the CPL SEP. Once you have the CPL (with ATPL credit) could you just do the expensive MEP Skills test and IR at a latter date >36months time? Or is this not allowed?

As I see it my options now are:

1. Theory credits, MCC, MEP Skills Test/IR. Sit on a CPL MEP/IR

2. Theory credits, MEP Skills test. Sit on a CPL. (could I then just do a direct MEP IR say 5years down the line or would I need another exam credit?)

3. Theory credit, SEP Skills test and IR. Sit on a SEP CPL/IR (could I then just add a MEP rating and IR at a later date >36mths without another ATPL theory credit?)

Ultimately I want to do the exams now (only once) get a licence that means I can do the expensive MEP IR at a latter date >36mths when I can use a gratuity. Is this possible? I could struggle through CAP804 all night and still not find the answers but lots of you probably already know the answers to my FUNGUS questions. :ok:

Thanks in advance.

[SAR Bloke]

The IR requirement specifically states that a 'BFJT' graduate shall take the IR in a single-engined aircraft. As I read it, to get a ME IR, using the military credits, you have to do a SE IR and then conduct the ME IR conversion course and subsequent further IRT.

I can't see how doing a few hours in a DA42 (or any twin aircraft) satisfies the single-engine requirement.

p.s. why the obsession with the DA 42?

[Easy Street]

The 'military' bit gets you off some or all of the mandated flying training. After some careful reading of CAP 804 I offer the following thoughts:

A FJ pilot can go straight into a SE CPL and then SE IR(A) skills test without any training, using the military credits. Then, he can do a ME class rating (6 hours' flying, first quote below) and become eligible to train for a ME IR(A) using the standard civilian 'crossover' rules (second quote, below). I wonder if an enlightened FTO could roll all this ME trg together into one 6-hour package?

The flight training course for a single-pilot multi-engine class or type rating shall include at least 2 hours and 30 minutes of dual flight instruction under normal conditions of multi-engine aeroplane operations, and not less than 3 hours 30 minutes of dual flight instruction in engine failure procedures and asymmetric flight techniques.9 The holder of a single-engine IR(A) who also holds a multi-engine class or type rating wishing to obtain a multi-engine IR(A) for the first time shall complete a course at an ATO comprising at least 5 hours instruction in instrument flying in multi-engine aeroplanes, of which 3 hours may be in an FFS or FNPT II.If a FJ pilot elects to go straight for a ME CPL and IR, none of the military exemptions apply and the standard civilian rules must be followed. For a start, this means that a PPL(A) must be obtained as a civvy cannot start a CPL course without one. So chalk up some puddlejumping practice and a PPL test. Now add a ME class rating to that PPL. Now do the standard civvy CPL training course (which will be expensive if you do it all in a ME aircraft) and the CPL skills test. Onto the ME IR:

8. A multi-engine IR(A) course shall comprise at least 55 hours instrument time under instruction, of which up to 25 hours may be instrument ground time in an FNPT I, or up to 40 hours in an FFS or FNPT II. A maximum of 10 hours of FNPT II or an FFS instrument ground time may be conducted in an FNPT I. The remaining instrument flight instruction shall include at least 15 hours in multi-engine aeroplanes.

10.1 The holder of a CPL(A) or of a Course Completion Certificate for the Basic Instrument Flight Module may have the total amount of training required in paragraphs 7 or 8 above reduced by 10 hours.Ouch! I suggest that the latter path is pointless - you might as well grit your teeth and take a SE CPL and IR to make use of the military training credit. This unlocks a much quicker route to ME CPL and IR (6-12 hours, vs 60-70 hrs?).

The source reading for all this is CAP804 Section 4 Parts H and L (Appendices 3 and 6).

[High_Expect]

Thanks - I guess it's my own fault for being a low average fast jet mate.

Ok my next question.

If I use the Military credits to do the exams (ATPL credit) then do a SEP Skills test and IR thus gaining a SEP CPL IR does this "Lock In" my ATPL theory credit? Could I then do a MEP conversion, Skills Test and IR say 5 years later without doing the exams again?

I guess I could let he CPL lapse and just do another Skills test again a few years down the line before doing the 6-12hrs MEP bits.

[Trim Stab]

If I use the Military credits to do the exams (ATPL credit) then do a SEP Skills test and IR thus gaining a SEP CPL IR does this "Lock In" my ATPL theory credit? Could I then do a MEP conversion, Skills Test and IR say 5 years later without doing the exams again?


Yes. After issue of ATPL exams certificate you have three years to do CPL, and seven years to do your IR.


I guess I could let he CPL lapse and just do another Skills test again a few years down the line before doing the 6-12hrs MEP bits.


CPL does not "lapse". It is a licence so is valid for life (as long as you maintain current on some sort of aircraft class - the cheapest option being SEP).

You could just do CPL on SEP and then leave the MEP and IR/ME until you really need a job. But probably wise (given the way they move the goalposts) to get CPL and IR/SE and keep them current every year until you are ready to do the MEP, IR/ME/SP and MCC.

To keep your SEP and IR/SE current you would just have to do an annual IR/SE checkride which is not too onerous



Yes, I don't see the fascination with DA42. I've known mates complete CPLs in King Air and Cessna Dutchess to name a couple.


I've never heard of a JAR FTO offering CPL on a King Air - they'd need a lot of wealthy clients to survive! I don't know of an FTO even using Dutchess for CPL training (though plenty use them for IR/ME). For CPL, the course offered by an FTO has to be approved by the authority on a specific aircraft so FTOs will only go to the bother of getting a course authorised on an economically viable type. As far as I know the only MEP that has proven to be viable for a combined MEP/CPL course is DA42.

[High_Expect]

Thanks Trim Stab.

I'll probably do as you recommend SEP CPL/IR and save the MEP rating and IR until say 6mths before my exit date.

Whilst I can find info in the CAP relating to renewing a lapsed IR ie. Training with an ATO up to the equivalent standard to pass the initial test, I can't find anything relating to renewing a lapsed CPL ie. I didn't keep a class rating for a part-FCL licence. Is it the same as the IR? ( I don't plan to do the 12hrs + 1 with an FI in 2 years)

Ultimately what I want to do is: ATPL exams SEP CPL & IR then not do anything with it for about 6years (I'll be current on Mil SE and Twin Jet with Green Unrest IR, but not flying a SEP - not that it appears to count for anything) then pick up where I left off, renew my SEP CPL/IR then go down the MEP rating & IR + MCC + some luck = job. I don't, however, want to do the ATPL exams twice. If its is not possible I'll just wait until nearer the time. I'm just keen to do them now as my brain is in study mode and my current job would allow the study time/leave.

Thanks for the replies so far.

For the record i've no massive infatuation with the DA42, it's just reasonably priced :ouch: and has a modern glass cockpit - something I'm familiar with. :ok:

[blagger]

The CAA aircraft approval lark has just been withdrawn see IN-2012/068 and it is up to the FTO to make sure the aircraft they use are adequate.

Beech Duchess, Piper Seneca / Seminole and DA42 are all used by a variety of FTOs for MEP/CPL training - see PAT Bournemouth, Multiflight, Atlantic Flight Training respectively for examples of each!

Anyone wanting a reasonable, hassle free PPL or just SEP rating issue or renewal from a 24/7 operating RAF flying club feel free to PM me!

[SammySu]

Next bone question.

Consider the A2/1 King Air QFI. Under the new system he can only get a FI(A) with restrictions.

He now wishes to become an ME instructor - FI-CRI-ME

My understanding is that to add ME priviliges to your FI rating one needs to hold an unrestricted FI rating.

So does our highly experienced RAF multi engine AFT QFI have to complete 100 hrs of civilian flight instruction including supervising 25 solo flights (under supervision of another FI of course) before he is allowed to complete the training required to add ME to his FI rating?

Would it be easier for him to forget all about an FI rating and just go for a CRI acknowledging that he would be limited in who he could then provide instruction too?

If anyone can confirm or deny I would appreciate it. Likewise if anyone can provide an email for CFS HQ at Cranwell please do - I can't access the intranet from civvy street!

My head hurts. :ugh:

[Alex Whittingham]

There seem to be no currency requirements in these documents, i.e. exemptions last forever irrespective of the date of the last qualifying flight. Have I missed something?

[AAC123]

I heard that those people who have done bridging and hold CPL(H) have 3 years (i.e. until Apr 15) to get their IR. After that ... do the whole lot! :ooh:

[rogue leader]

Anyone had any joy gaining a PPL(H) using credits from being a SERP (completing DHFS)? What theory exams did you have to take, and what practical training/exams? CAP804 doesn't seem to give a definitive answer, and on enquiring with a couple of schools they seem unaware of the credits. Many thanks!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

RL - what course were you on at SY?

If you were (approx) DHFS 120 onwards, it is straightforward. You require your certificates, plus an air law & an RT exam for the ppl, no flying required (though you will be issued with a squirrel rating, which is only useful if you are, perhaps, ex-cavalry in your financial disposition).

If you were before DHFS 120, then you'll need to read LASORS carefully!

[BEagle]

Unfortunately, LASORS 2010 is no longer applicable for military accreditation - the defining document is now the infamous Section 4 Part O of CAP 804...:uhoh:

There is no longer any credit from any of the PPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations...

Neither is there any credit from the PPL(H) Skill Test...:mad:

Nor is there any exemption from the RTF Practical Test for the FRTOL.

However, if you are a SERP or QMP(H) with a minimum of 10 hours logged as PIC/P1 Capt or PICUS/1st Pilot Non-Capt then you are given full credit as regards the requirement to undergo a training course...:D

See CAP 804 Section 4 Part O Pages 9-10.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Now therein lies an interesting connundrum, because previously the squirrel course was accredited as a ppl course (i.e. you got a shiny certificate, sent it off to CAA (along with an RT and air law exam) and received your licence in the post.

Are they saying that has changed? Does the new rule-set override the old arrangement? Or is it applicable to people who went through before the course was adjusted to comply with the ppl syllabus?

[BEagle]

The new accreditation criteria came into effect on 27 Jul 2012, at which point any previous terms ceased, apart from a few which, for those pilots affected, had a previously agreed timeframe.

The only accreditation unaffected by this absurd €urocratic bu££$hit is that which applies to the NPPL.

[rogue leader]

Thanks for all your input, things are a little clearer now!

Not sure if it's too late, but anyone wanting to claim something under the old regime of LASORS may be able to sneak in....

CAP804: Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=5000)

"IMPORTANT: The CAA has announced a new date for implementation of European Regulations for flight crew licensing in the UK. Therefore any reference to 1 July 2012 should now read as 17 September 2012."

[rogue leader]

More help needed please!

Does anyone know whether I can use hours for check rides/flight tests and IF training as a 'SERP' based on these statements from CAP804 as PIC time for my application for CPL(H):


Section 1 Part E

9 Guide to log annotations

H Student Pilot-in-Command - Pilot acting as pilot-in command during an approved integrated course of training, under the supervision of a flight instructor. The flight instructor shall only observe the student acting as pilot-in-command and shall not control the flight of the aircraft).

J Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a EASA or CAA Authorised Examiner - PICUS for successful Test P/UT for unsuccessful test (including partial pass).

10.4 Student Pilot-in-Command - A student on a CPL(A)/IR, CPL(H) or ATPL(A)/(H) Integrated Course of flying training may log flight time on instrument training flights as SPIC when flying with an instructor qualified to give instrument flight instruction. The instructor must be the holder of a valid professional licence, instructor rating, instrument rating and IRI privileges. SPIC time shall be credited as pilot-in-command time, unless the flight instructor had reason to control any part of the flight. A ground de-briefing by the flight instructor does not affect the crediting as pilot-in-command.


Also I seem to recall we recorded skids off to skids on times in our log books, so would there be scope for adjusting these hours accordingly based on the following statement from the same section:


7.1 A helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight and the rotor blades are stopped.

Thank you for your help on this!

[nice castle]

Under the old scheme, you could add 10% taxy time to wheeled helicopters when opening your license. When I then added another (mil) type, this rule was not allowed.

I suggest you call them and clarify the latest situation given your circumstances. When you get the right answer, ask their name and write to them clarifying your conversation. The standardisation amongst the people that work there, and should therefore know the rules, is shocking. I have had one guy confirm all is ok, and on arrival in person with all the agreed documentation, another took great joy in telling me all was not in order. When I quoted the other guy, he apologised and said he was wrong. Cue thirty quids worth of wasted fuel. (I got what I needed eventually though;))

Good luck, especially given that they will still be learning CAP 804...

[LFFC]

rouge leader

Not sure if it's too late, but anyone wanting to claim something under the old regime of LASORS may be able to sneak in....



Don't waste your breath; the old military accreditation scheme wound up months ago. See this thread (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/432844-military-licence-exemptions-beyond-april-2012-a-5.html#post6166768), started in 2010, that discussed it all.

BEagle outlined the situation well in his post here. (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/432844-military-licence-exemptions-beyond-april-2012-a-6.html#post6944570) Note the line,

The present QSP scheme and its successor will not be compatible; there will be no ‘mix and match’ between the 2 schemes and any advantages conferred by the QSP scheme must have resulted in licence issue by 7 Apr 12. Beyond that date the successor scheme only will apply, with the exception that advantages conferred by JAR licences already issued (such as ‘frozen’ ATPL credits) will remain.

[rogue leader]

Finally received my reply from the CAA, so I can confirm:

1. As a SERP you are credited theory study but not exams, and credited flying experience but not skills test towards a PPL(H).

2. Only military hours logged as P1 Capt or 1st Pilot non-Capt can be counted towards the PIC requirement for a CPL(H). Military hours for check rides and flight tests cannot be used.

3. Military hours cannot be adjusted to allow for taxi time to count towards a licence or class/type rating.

If anyone wants me to forward the full response in a PM please let me know. So, back to the study....

[PileUp Officer]

Good afternoon,

Would anyone be able to PM me the name and telephone number of the RAF liaison side of the MAS?

I have my SRG2133 form all signed off and ready to go but am having a bit of trouble getting my passport copy certified as I can't get to an ATO in person. I just need to ask someone at 22Gp if it's okay for me to get the passport certified by another person of good standing.

I've tried the 22TrgGp-FTFJ1S email but no reply as yet...

Thanks

[BEagle]

See PM.

Probably a bit late in the afternoon to try ringing Shabby Wood right now though....:bored:

[PileUp Officer]

I've actually just had a reply to my email. Perhaps I should learn to be more patient!

[charlestaylor]

I think the question has already been asked here, but can military pilots still add a taxi-time allowance as per CAA LASORS Section A Appendix B.

I noted the comments about not being allowed to count this time for licensing purposes, but couldn't find any reference in CAP 804 to the difference between the civil and military method of recording hours.

Would be quite disappointed if this has gone, as accounts for approximately 400hrs of flying for me :uhoh:

[nice castle]

Under the old system, I was told the taxi time (for a wheeled helicopter btw, it would not have been applicable to skidded types) was admissible for initial license issue only. Ie. when I subsequently wanted to add another (mil) type, I could not use any taxi time. Not sure of the logic myself. Sorry, I don't know what the new rules say...

[sycamore]

CT, think you`d find that the `old` allowance for mil.taxi-time was 75 hours maximum.

[charlestaylor]

From LASORS Section A Appendix B:

The system that was decided upon was the
taxi-assessment system. The Service pilot adds a
taxi-time allowance (see table 1 below) to each sector
flown as entered in his Service logbook - the taxi-time
allowance being dependant on the type of sortie flown by
the pilot. The taxi-time allowances built up throughout a
career are then entered into a table (see table 2 below)
to arrive at a total for their career. Prior to leaving the
Services this table should be placed in the pilot’s logbook
and signed by his last Squadron Commander. Please
note that this arrangement cannot be used for CAA
licence issue purposes.

It should be emphasised that when canvassed, most UK
airlines said they were aware of the discrepancy between
the Service and CAA method of recording flying hours,
and took this into account in the recruitment process.
Where this is the case, any hours calculated by the
individual Service pilot in excess of 75 hours should be
taken into account by the individual airline.

[BEagle]

Taxy time allowance is actually of little benefit ever since the Military Accreditation System was dumbed down to its present pathetic state.

However, I still recommend that all pilots maintain 2 log books - one military (with hours recorded in accordance with military requirements) and one Part-FCL (with hours recorded in accordance with €ASA requirements).

[virtualA1]

Gents

Another licensing question and apologies for being bone but CAP804 is impenetrable. I have got a JAR CPL(H) opened about 3 years ago under the old military bridging scheme on the Merlin Mk1; there is no IR because I am still serving and the helicopter is non procedural. I have had conflicting information about what I need to do to activate this following the introduction of EASA, with the left of arc that I need to do an IR before 1 Apr 15 and the right of arc that I have to start the whole process from scratch. Can anybody give me a steer in the right direction? I have 4000 hours on the mighty King and the Merlin so that should not be an issue.

[GipsyMagpie]

I am doing the deed as we speak. Couple of issues:

There is a deadline but it's for your theory credit. You have until April next year to keep your credit fr the old scheme.

As a might SK and ME1 driver you will need to get your IR before Apr 15 to preserve your ATPL exam credit. You have 2 choices. Get a nice CAA examiner to sit on your shoulder for a mil irt but it needs to be an EASA type and the military chain of command has to sign off on the CAA examiner coming with you. So basically you don't have this option
Second option is to use an EASA type and do a civ IR. Depends on whether you want to do single pilot stuff or multi pilot. If single pilot is what you want then do it on a twin squirrel. You'll need to do min 3 hour type rating plus enough hours to get you ready for procedural irt. Met a guy from rn doing exactly this at star speed - call david Arkell and chat it through with him. You can then get your atpl on the as355 to tick the multi pilot box too (extra 2 hrs plus test). Aviation is an expensive business so none of this comes cheap.

Or you could hope a north sea operator takes you as you are and you get your multi pilot atpl ir through them.

Any further questions PM me. I am doing the single pilot route using my currency on a109. At a job interview if you are against a guy with his licences all sorted.....

[Sketretal]

Ref ATPL theory credit for those CPL(H) holders who have done Mil Bridging:

The most recent news I heard is that if you don't get your IR done by Apr 15, you only lose credit for the 4 exams relevant to IR - i.e. after Apr 15 you would have to resit 4 exams, not all 14 or whatever it is these days. Anyone confirm this?

[virtualA1]

Many thanks GM; any idea where this is laid down?

Good luck with the IR.

[southwest lad]

That is correct. They have decoupled the ATPL and the IR elements so post Apr 15, you will only lose and thus need to re-pass the 4 IR exams before you can then complete an IR. You can also go the self study route before taking the CAA exams rather than needing to do a recognised course again.
I have spoken personally to the CAA policy cell and have a copy of the CAA/JHC policy note email that was forwarded to the AAC AH Force to allay fears of needing to do all the ATPL exams again. The was dated May 13 but never got widely disted.
I'll dig it out of my email inbox and get my teenage son to paste it across. But the long and short is that there is no real rush to do an IR until it is required for those still serving.

[Alex Whittingham]

Could you send a copy to me as well, please? [email protected]

[GipsyMagpie]

Its already on here somewhere but I have copy on my office wall (is that bad as the TRG offer?).

Interesting interpretation southwest lad and quite right. But doing just those 4 (isn't it 5?) exams would only get you IR credit not ATPL credit wouldn't it? You could therefore get a cpl/ir for single pilot stuff but you would still need 12 exams to go for the atpl. At least that's what the bridging chart seems to indicate on the Bristol.GS site (excellent work Alex).

[GipsyMagpie]

15 Aug 12

22(TRG) GP - BRTEFING NOTE FROM FT FJl SO2

MILITARY ACCREDITATION SCHEME UPDATE - ISSUE 1 AUGUST 2012



Publication of the Military Accreditation Scheme (MAS)



1. The MAS was published by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) on the 27 Jul12. The scheme can be found in CAP 804 Paft 1 Section 4 Parl O which is available on the CAA website. Electronic copies of CAP 804 are available from 22(Trg) Gp on request.



2. Seeking opportunities to improve the MAS, within the constraints of EASA regulation, remains a high priority for 22(Trg) Gp and negotiations are ongoing with the CAA in a number of areas. Policy adjustments have already been made as a result of these negotiations. The following paragraphs summarise the latest position (as at 15 Aug 12) and contain information of importance for those military pilots considering their Flight Crew Licence (FCL) requirements.



Preservation of ATPL Theory Credits



4. This has been the subject of considerable scrutiny by 22(Trg) Gp and the CAA. The policy in this area has been subject to development and I am now pleased to report that:



a. Qualified Service Pilots -Aeroplanes (QSP(A)) who, under the terms of the former QSP Scheme, obtained a JAR-FCL CPL(A) within 36 months of gaining the required pass in the ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations will have those theory credits preserved, for the purpose of adding an instrument Rating (lR) to their licence, for a period of 3 years from the date of his/her last flight piloting a military aeroplane OR 3 years from I Apr 12 whichever occurs first.



b. Qualified Service Pilots - Helicopters (QSP(H)) who, under the terms of the former QSP Scheme, obtained a JAR-FCL CPL(H) within 36 months of gaining the required pass in the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations will have those theory credits preserved, for the purpose of adding an Instrument Rating (lR) to their licence, for a period of 3 years from the date of his/her last flight piloting a military helicopter OR 3 years from 8 Apr 12 whichever occurs first.



5. This policy announcement represents a significant concession to military pilots caught in the transition to EASA regulation. Early indications are that it will benefit a significant number of individuals.



6. For military pilots completing ATPL theoretical knowledge exams after 8 Apr 12 the validity criteria as set out in FCL.025(C) apply. ln other words:



'The successful completion of the theoretical knowledge examinations will be valid for the issue of a commercial pilot licence or instrument rating for a period of 36 months.'



7. lt should also be noted that in all cases ATPL theory credit for the grant of an ATPL will be as stated in FCL.O25(cXZ) ln other words: 'The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of an lR entered in the licence or, in the case of helicopters, a helicopter's type rating entered in that licence.'



Multi-Pilot Accreditation



6. The Voyager and Sea King Mk 6 have been recognised as a multi-pilot aeroplane and multi-pilot helicopter respectively. CAP 804 will be amended accordingly. Further consultation will be taking place with our colleagues from the Army Air Corps in Sep 12 with a view to presenting a case to the CAA to achieve multi-pilot status for the Apache AH64. I shall issue further updates on this matter in due course.



Multi-Engine Accreditation



7. Although the AH64 is not an EASA helicopter type the CAA do recognise it as a multi-engine helicopter and therefore multi-engine hours accrued on it will count when determining the extent of training required for the purpose of achieving a type rating on a multi-engine helicopter at an ATO



Direct Route to the ATPL



8. CAP 804 Section 4 Part F subparts 1 and 2 covers the applicability, privileges and requirements in respect of the EASA Airline Transport Pilot Licence for Aeroplanes and Helicopters. lt will be noted that applicants for an

ATPL(A or H) shall hold a CPL(A or H). HOWEVER the CAA has confirmed that if a QMP is following the requirements for the initial grant of an ATPL (in accordance with CAP 804 Parl 1 Section 4 Parl O para 3.5 for ATPL(A) or part 3.14 or ATPL(H)) there is no requirement for a CPL to be issued first.



CPL(H) Testing



9. The CAA has confirmed that the CPL(H) Skills Test may be undertaken in a multi engine helicopter. Furthermore a CPL skill test is also considered as a type rating skill test in that 'it counts as the demonstration of CPL level competence and competence to fly the type in which the test is taken.'



Summary



9. The implementation of EASA regulation in respect of FCL in the UK has precipitated significant changes to military accreditation. Nevertheless 22(Trg) Gp and the CAA remain committed to securing additional credit where possible against a demanding regulatory backdrop; this will be an ongoing process and I would expect to make further announcements in due course.



Sqn Ldr Richard Saunders

FT FJ1 SO2

Directorate of Flying Training

No 22(Trg) Gp

Military: 9679 80092

Mobile: 07500 065736

Dil FT FJ1

[Sloppy Link]

Mil bridging credits you with a ATPL(H) pass (Mr B Mooney, CAA Policy). CAP 804 Sect 4 Part L Para 4.2 confirms the requirement for only 4 exams (post 31 Mar 15 linking to the note from Rich). CAP 804 Part A FCL.025(c) (2) (ii) credits you with ATPL(H) theory for 7 years after the last valid rating on your licence. Therfore, Virtual me old china, you will have to get a valid EASA type and then convert your licence to EASA (I did it on an AB206, cost me about £700 plus 1xELC, Goodwood and Thruxton among others can sort this). Do your IR before Apr 15 (£30k-ish) and no exams, after, the cost remains the same but you have to do the exams. If going to the North Sea etc, get a ME, MC type and an ATPL(H) you have. Simples.

PS, the AAC note author was SO2 TDT in consultation with the CAA before being signed off by the AAC Regimental Colonel. If you are serving (I no longer am) you should be able to find him on Dii as "AACHQ-TrgDev-SO2-TDT" or very similar.

[amb_211085]

Can the MAS be used to credit cross type from QMP(H) to an ATPL(A)? I accept these are very different and that accreditation is likely to be minimal (EFTG to PPL(A) perhaps?), but what I really want to know is whether the hours I have already logged will count towards the minimum for the various FCLs?

Whilst not the most common of routes, I know it has been done in the past. How does one go about it and what are the best docs to read up on for the regs?

Thanks.

[Sketretal]

Apologies for the lazy approach but the CAA are slow to respond, I rarely get the same answer twice, and CAP 804 is impossible to work with...

I did old Mil Bridging in 2009 and got a CPL(H) with a mil type on it. I never got around to doing the IR as I was staying in the mob so made the conscious decision to take the pain of doing the 4 IR exams at some point in the future.

Now, however, I'm still in the Forces, the JAR licence is out of date and I've not yet exchanged it for a PART FCL licence. The question is...can I exchange it now, still with nothing on it apart from the original Mil aircraft type (which I haven't flown for 2 years)? Or, do I need to get an EASA type rating first in order to convert the licence? Or option three.... if I do nothing for a year or two, at what point does the rest of my ATPL(H) theory expire and make the JAR licence currently in my sock drawer totally worthless?

My intent is to get a civilian type rating and IR eventually, but maybe not for a couple of years. I have at least kept the medical in date! Thanks for any help or advice.

[Sloppy Link]

It was that you needed a current EASA type but I gave heard if many simply exchanging still with the mil type, the licence gaming noting in it but you, as you gave done, do need a medical. There is a form that confirms your military experience signed by the CO that accompanies it all. Telephoning often meets with differing answers, I would simply apply and see what written response you get, from here you can appeal if not happy citing colleagues experiences. Your ATPL(H) theory credits do not expire but your IR credits expired last April, it is four exams for you my boy.

[Sketretal]

Cheers SL - that's what I was hoping for. Slightly surprised the ATPL theory credit doesn't expire but I'll take it. Presumably the CAA know I have that credit as I don't remember ever getting a certificate or anything that stated it. But I suppose the CPL shows that the necessary was achieved at some point!

[GipsyMagpie]

Cheers SL - that's what I was hoping for. Slightly surprised the ATPL theory credit doesn't expire but I'll take it. Presumably the CAA know I have that credit as I don't remember ever getting a certificate or anything that stated it. But I suppose the CPL shows that the necessary was achieved at some point!

Sorry but your ATPL theory expired last April. All credit from the old scheme disappeared at that point. I have all the paperwork from the CAA and 22 Gp so you can look if needed but that's the miserable truth.

However all is not lost. Your CPL is in the bag. It will never expire and gives a good jumping off point. If you want to get just a CPL/IR in the future its just 5 exams, and a few trips and test (assuming a valid in service green unrestricted IR). If you eventually want an ATPL (multicrew) its all the exams and a bit more flying. Flying a civil type whilst still in (A109 springs to mind) makes the transition easier.

I wouldn't bother getting your JAR licence renewed now by the way - it would cost and you would have a depressing empty licence. I believe you can still wait until the next time you put something in it and the conversion is then free (if not the new rating). Also consider the tax deductible status of CAA fees (check out tax manual for professional fees online). Might represent a big saving).

PM if you need more. Incidentally once you have ATPL (H) credit, turning it into A credit is 5 more exams. All you mil heli hours are useful if you just want to go into that route in the first place. I worked out it was even on cost to get my mil heli quals converted into civil as it was to start from scratch as fixed wing...the joys of the gass guzzling helicopters at £2500 per hour!

[Sloppy Link]

Hmn.....happy to be proved wrong, conversation with Policy a couple of years ago as the 22 Gp/DAAvn letter was being drafted confirmed the mil bridging to be an ATPL(H) pass. I do recall there being something about being in current flying practice but can't remember if it was mil or civi.

[wokawoka]

I also have the email from 22gp and CAA, the ATPL(H) credits are valid 7 years. The ones that died last April were the IR credits. It was from a couple of years ago.

I have received in writing from the CAA that if you have CPL(H) with ATPL(H) theory credit ( not an ATPL(H)) you only need to 5 exams to get your ATPL(A) theory. See CAP 804, section 4, Annex L, page 1, Para 3.2.

[GipsyMagpie]

I also have the email from 22gp and CAA, the ATPL(H) credits are valid 7 years. The ones that died last April were the IR credits. It was from a couple of years ago.

I have received in writing from the CAA that if you have CPL(H) with ATPL(H) theory credit ( not an ATPL(H)) you only need to 5 exams to get your ATPL(A) theory. See CAP 804, section 4, Annex L, page 1, Para 3.2.

Yes, quite right - I have relocated the bit about the ATPL. Only snag is the bit about having a valid type rating in last 7 years (might be approaching that for some from old scheme). Here's text of letter for anyone who didn't have the pleasure.

15 Aug 12



22(TRG) GP - BRIEFING NOTE FROM FT FJ1 SO2



MILITARY ACCREDITATION SCHEME UPDATE - ISSUE 1 AUGUST 2012



Publication of the Military Accreditation Scheme (MAS)



1. The MAS was published by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) on the 27 Jul 12. The scheme can be found in CAP 804 Part 1 Section 4 Part O which is available on the CAA website. Electronic copies of CAP 804 are available from 22(Trg) Gp on request.



2. Seeking opportunities to improve the MAS, within the constraints of EASA regulation, remains a high priority for 22(Trg) Gp and negotiations are ongoing with the CAA in a number of areas. Policy adjustments have already been made as a result of these negotiations. The following paragraphs summarise the latest position (as at 15 Aug 12) and contain information of importance for those military pilots considering their Flight Crew Licence (FCL) requirements.



Preservation of ATPL Theory Credits



4. This has been the subject of considerable scrutiny by 22(Trg) Gp and the CAA. The policy in this area has been subject to development and I am now pleased to report that:



a. Qualified Service Pilots -Aeroplanes (QSP(A)) who, under the terms of the former QSP Scheme, obtained a JAR-FCL CPL(A) within 36 months of gaining the required pass in the ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations will have those theory credits preserved, for the purpose of adding an Instrument Rating (IR) to their licence, for a period of 3 years from the date of his/her last flight piloting a military aeroplane OR 3 years from 8 Apr 12 whichever occurs first.



b. Qualified Service Pilots - Helicopters (QSP(H)) who, under the terms of the former QSP Scheme, obtained a JAR-FCL CPL(H) within 36 months of gaining the required pass in the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations will have those theory credits preserved, for the purpose of adding an Instrument Rating (IR) to their licence, for a period of 3 years from the date of his/her last flight piloting a military helicopter OR 3 years from 8 Apr 12 whichever occurs first.




5. This policy announcement represents a significant concession to military pilots caught in the transition to EASA regulation. Early indications are that it will benefit a significant number of individuals.



6. For military pilots completing ATPL theoretical knowledge exams after 8 Apr 12 the validity criteria as set out in FCL.025(C) apply. In other words: 'The successful completion of the theoretical knowledge examinations will be valid for the issue of a commercial pilot licence or instrument rating for a period of 36 months.'



7. It should also be noted that in all cases ATPL theory credit for the grant of an ATPL will be as stated in FCL.025(c)(2). In other words: 'The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of an IR entered in the licence or, in the case of helicopters, a helicopter's type rating entered in that licence.'



Multi-Pilot Accreditation



6. The Voyager and Sea King Mk 6 have been recognised as a multi-pilot aeroplane and multi-pilot helicopter respectively. CAP 804 will be amended accordingly. Further consultation will be taking place with our colleagues from the Army Air Corps in Sep 12 with a view to presenting a case to the CAA to achieve multi-pilot status for the Apache AH64. I shall issue further updates on this matter in due course.



Multi-Engine Accreditation



7. Although the AH64 is not an EASA helicopter type the CAA do recognise it as a multi-engine helicopter and therefore multi-engine hours accrued on it will count when determining the extent of training required for the purpose of achieving a type rating on a multi-engine helicopter at an ATO.



Direct Route to the ATPL



8. CAP 804 Section 4 Part F subparts 1 and 2 covers the applicability, privileges and requirements in respect of the EASA Airline Transport Pilot Licence for Aeroplanes and Helicopters. It will be noted that applicants for an ATPL(A or H) shall hold a CPL(A or H). HOWEVER the CAA has confirmed that if a QMP is following the requirements for the initial grant of an ATPL (in accordance with CAP 804 Part 1 Section 4 Part O para 3.5 for ATPL(A) or para 3.14 for ATPL(H)) there is no requirement for a CPL to be issued first.



CPL(H) Testing



9. The CAA has confirmed that the CPL(H) Skills Test may be undertaken in a multi engine helicopter. Furthermore a CPL skill test is also considered as a type rating skill test in that 'it counts as the demonstration of CPL level competence and competence to fly the type in which the test is taken.'



Summary



9. The implementation of EASA regulation in respect of FCL in the UK has precipitated significant changes to military accreditation. Nevertheless 22(Trg) Gp and the CAA remain committed to securing additional credit where possible against a demanding regulatory backdrop; this will be an ongoing process and I would expect to make further announcements in due course.



Sqn Ldr Richard Saunders

FT FJ1 SO2

[Sketretal]

Thanks all - some very useful info there. The bit I'm a little unclear on though is when that 7 years start. It's nearly 7 years since the licence was opened with a mil heli type rating and, although never renewed as such, I still flew that type, with a mil IR, up to last year.

Gypsy - tax relief on fees sounds interesting. I suppose that could be extended to all training costs if you were to set yourself up as a sole trader - something I will definitely look into when the time comes.

[Sloppy Link]

FCL 025 (c) (2) (ii) http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804%20April%202015%20searchable.pdf is the puppy you are looking for, it is all coming back to me now (go Ctrl F, enter "7 years" and it goes straight to it). 7 years from your last valid rating, therefore your last skills test. As you have stayed mil, your struggle will be convincing Aviation House that your mil standards check is your last skills test, this form, box 4 should do it. http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG2133FFenabled1.pdf

SL

[Sketretal]

SL - thanks for the references. The SRG 2133 may be my saviour but I still think the 7 year rule is ambiguous - one ATO has pointed out that the ATPL theory credit never really expires as (I assume) all you need to do is add a TR to your CPL and, hey presto, you have another 7 years. Not sure how the CAA interpret it though...

[Sloppy Link]

Exactly, that is how PLD explained it also. Every time you do a skills test, the clock is zeroed again.