Bid Adieu to Kingfisher

[SaabCapt]

Market going to get flooded with A320 Pilots soon, so freshers brace for impact?
:ouch:

[GE90-115B]

Repercussions of Kingfisher Closing Down :-

1. Air Fares are going to shoot up drastically. I expect an fares increase of no less than 15 % on competitive routes and upto 35 % in non competitive routes.

2. Pilots with a few thousand hours on A320 and ATR72 will be looking for any flying paying position. The worst hit would be the newly released captains and newly released first officers. Experienced ones on their respective seats will flock to the deserts or the greener pastures in east.

3. End game for freshers in the industry.

4. Drastic reduction in salary payment across the board. Not just pilots. I expect the salaries of low cost carriers to reduce as much as the US Regionals. It would be a tough game for cabin crew and ground staff to even survive the industry.

5. KFA closing down might benefit other carriers but clearly Jet Airways stands to benefit from a load factor aspect while Indigo and Go Air will stand to benefit from cheap and experienced labour.

To summarise.. Situation has gone from bad to f'ed up !! :ouch:

[RP-C000]

airlines in China are watching this and many would offers from these airlines:D:D overall good for Indian aviation..

[LieDetector]

Been hearing this for a year now, i'll believe it when I see it.

[GE90-115B]

overall good for Indian aviation..

:ooh:

(I DONT HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY)

[jetaddy]

King of good times came to end....So does hopes of cpl holders came to end. Vijay Mally is responsible for death of two airlines and many job oppurtinites. :ugh:

[blackknight999]

Well the salaries are already at rock bottom if at all they are being payed...what more reduction is gonna happen...???:ugh::ugh::ouch:

[Skyblade]

is it done?

[airjet]

whatever the reasons its a sad situation:sad:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Did Kingfisher have training bonds, if so are these automatically null and void.

Glf

[BDD]

How many pilots are left at Kingfisher?

BDD

[vishwas_ddn]

last update i got, someone said 200 but i doubt they need so many for their less than 20 aircrafts.

[leftseatview]

Kingfisher just renewed the insurance on all the A/C, including the grounded ones,Feb Salary disbursement has started.So till the Govt takes a call on FDI i think its a bit early to bid Adieu.

[de facto]

QUOTE:'Feb Salary disbursement has started.So till the Govt takes a call on FDI i think its a bit early to bid Adieu.'UNQUOTE.


And you are posting this in July??
RUN RUN RUN RUN...

[jamestaylor]

Ya but his fat ass can sit at race and spend millions right??????????????

[airjet]

problem is they should have "run run run" 4 months ago, now if they run they def lose 5 months pay, so its a case of cut your losses or hope they pay before collapse.:confused:

[SaabCapt]

What are the chance for those with 320TR and zero hr on type
Guess 737 guys are better off in times like these.

[captjns]

The DGCA is going to decide the fate of KF this week:hmm:.

[vinayak]

Speaking of the DGCA,


Bharat Bhushan asked to quit as head of aviation regulatory body DGCA

New Delhi:*EK Bharat Bhushan has been asked to quit as chief of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), the body which supervises safety and implementation other civil aviation reglations.* While there was no official word on the reasons for his removal as DGCA by the Civil Aviation ministry, there has been speculation that his recent warnings to Air India and Kingfisher Airlines to pay dues to their employees may have gone against him.

Mr Bhushan, an IAS officer of the 1979 batch from Kerala cadre who took over from Syed Nasim Ahmad Zaidi in December 2010 as DGCA chief, will continue to serve as Additional Secretary in the ministry, official sources said.

Mr Bhushan handed over charge to Prashant Narain Sukul, a Joint Secretary in the Ministry, who would also be holding the position as an additional charge, they said.

On July 4, the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet had approved the extension of additional charge of the post of DGCA to Bhushan for another year "with effect from 01.12.2011 or till the appointment of a regular incumbent, whichever is earlier."

As the Director General of Civil Aviation, Bhushan brought in stringent measures to prevent airlines from compromising on safety matters on account of their financial trouble.

He had bluntly told loss-making Air India and Kingfisher Airlines to pay up the employees' dues soon enough so that their performance was not affected. Both the airlines have faulted on timely payment of salaries and allowances for several months.

He had said that safety could be adversely affected by a demotivated staff, particularly a pilot, an engineer or a cabin crew if they were not paid their salaries and dues.



Source: NDTV, India.

[diddly squat]

Getting paid in July for work done in Feb?

[ironbutt57]

Looks like they didn't want to hear the truth, the "Minister" has been waffling and backtracking throughout this whole mess both with King Fisher..Mr Bhushan finally laid it out on the line, good on him!!! He did his JOB...

[DeanWinchester]

The UB group has shifted the Ownership of Vijay Mallyas jet VT-VJM from Kingfisher to UB group.

This is enough of a sign of whats going to happen sooner or later!

$1.4 billion in debt! Even FDI cant save it!

The sad part is, that ever after being given so much of time to recoup this airline, the management does not look interested!

Their model and Management need an Adrenaline shot! Straight in the heart!

[airjet]

Well Forbes seems to think its all over--as per thier article "on the rocks" in
forbes of India.
For my many Indian pilot friends, remember i always said you need a--
I.A.L.P.A. without it u will be subject to situations like this and lose 5 months pay because of no repersentation.
Also lets hope the DGCA learns a lesson and gets rid of the 6 month NOC crap.:uhoh:

[Cactus225]

Somehow I don't think this is the last of kingfisher.
Not yet.

There's something more to it.

Anyways, 200 experienced pilots shouldn't dent the aspiring ones for long.

Rumours about bhushan leaving seem to be connected to KFs survival as of now.

Why don't these folks just choose tge expat lives and move on???

[vinayak]

Great suggestion Cactus225,


Who's hiring thou?

[superdunkaroos]

For KF bus pilots there are openings in IndiGo, GoAir, Volk. Some KF pilots even went to Spicejet where the company paid for their 737TR.

[pilotbaba]

For Airbus Skippers ( read Captains), the world is open right now. Places in China paying $200,000.00 per annum & Middle Eastern carriers are looking for CA's as well.....

Only for those who want to get out of INDIA...

[StinkyMonkey]

China does not accept Indian applicants (unless things have changed recently)

[av8r76]

The Big Chief has asked striking employees to not 'disgrace' the airline. I am actually at a loss for words at his statement.:mad:

Don't envision a lot of these guys leaving India. I believe China has started looking at Indian pilots now.

Either way the Indian market is going to be saturated with experienced TR'ed guys in the short term. Not good for the wannabees.

[RP-C000]

Qatar will take them all on lower contracts ... they did the same when some of the Spanish airlines went bust..
Cathay might do the same.. yes but Capts only..FOs will suffer..ab-initos will be in hell for yrs :ugh::mad:

[pilotbaba]

Even though the down fall of KF is very sad & spell bad times for indian aviation & pilot wannabees, BUT historically whenever any airline has gone down, another one has come up to replace it...

I remember EAST-WEST airlines opened, then ModiLuft, then Damania, then NEPC, then one by one, they all closed..... Jet, Spicejet & Sahara replaced them eventually...

If KingFisher does not get it's act together & doesn't survive, it will also join the list of failed airlines.....

The market served by KF will remain, it is just a matter of time, when some other company will come in & replace KF....

For those who want to leave India, Middle Eastern airlines will be picking up all the experienced guys. Korean (KAL) & Chinese airlines are looking for people with time on TYPE, so there are a lot of options.

Captains with A320/A330 command will be welcome just about anywhere who operates these A/C.

Those who don't want to go out of India will have go to Indigo.

Indigo has the largest aircraft order & will have A/C delivered continously for the next so many yrs. After so much hiring, Indigo NOW has got just the right amount of staffing, for the amount of planes. The pilots can breathe a little easy & get some leave if needed. It will all change in the next few months, when more planes come in & staffing is short....

Indigo, so far, has taken pretty much all the experienced CA's & FOs from KF already. Any FO's with 500 hrs or more on type will not have that big of a problem moving on. Anyone with less than 200-300 hrs on A320 will also get absorbed eventually....

CPL holders with 250-300 hrs TT & just a TYPE rating will have the most difficult time...

The guys who paid a lot of money to KF for type rating either in ATR or A320 & have not yet completed the type rating or IOE will be in the worst situation... They will loose all the money & will get no type rating also.

[airjet]

Its a disgrace for young pilots to pay many lakhs for a type rating and then, no rating and no money returned. the govt should step in and use some KFA`s assetts to pay them back and to pay off the 5 months they owe the employees:*

[fullforward]

"Its a disgrace for young pilots to pay many lakhs for a type rating and then, no rating and no money returned. the govt should step in and use some KFA`s assetts to pay them back and to pay off the 5 months they owe the employees".


Are you serious? Are you sure you're a mature US individual?
It's a disgrace when abinitio pilots agreed to pay for type rating and build time making less than at Mac Donalds!
It's a disgrace when pilots don't bother to sell themselves cheaper and cheaper. The botom seems to be never reached.
It's a disgrace when the write is on the wall for many months and nobody moved their asses for better oportunities. Just sit and cry about not being paid.
Anyway, in India normally youngsters from afluent families got from daddy the cash to give a try on this career, thus taking their risk.
There's nothing what the goverment can do about that.
India need a lot of good engineers, doctors, lawyers, not pilots.

[SaabCapt]

in fact India has enough pilots for next 10 years :D

[Wannabe Flyer]

He has served us Beer when we were sad & low as well as when we were Happy.

Now he needs our help.

Please save Vijay Mallya can you ADOPT at least one Kingfisher AIR HOSTESS

[blackknight999]

Only 1??:ok::ok:

[airjet]

wow, ok first i suggest you learn to spell/speak english,:rolleyes:2nd why on earth would i want to be "a mature US individual" if they behave as you do.
Too much bitterness my friend.

[Capt Apache]

Full reverse lol!! That was generous of you,I'd say there is nothing Full there at all...only empty...lol!!

[fullforward]

I know how frustrating for indians wannabes like you to have a reality check...nothing personal though.
Just consider something else, for your own benefit.
Maybe a call center?
Plenty of hindinglish speaking people whenever I need assistance for my Dell...

[Capt Apache]

O We will assist you with the Dell ,but who ? O who will help you get well !

On a serious note I empathize with the people who lost jobs.There is an article in India Forbes on VJM probably worth a look at.

[ironbutt57]

Many keen to invest in Kingfisher: Mallya - Rediff.com Business (http://www.rediff.com/business/report/many-keen-to-invest-in-kingfisher-mallya/20120720.htm)


Why doesn't that TOSSER invest in it, instead of Jet-setting around touting himself as "the Richard Branson of India"...:yuk::yuk:

[airjet]

Right on ironB he should give up one of his 5billion(according to "the times of India"), he may have to do this anyway, because i understand that India does not have the bankrupcy option.
Pride is a big stumbling block here especially as he gave the airline to his son.

[cameltoad]

How many expat capt. did knigfisher have?

[airjet]

In its "good ole days" about 150 expats

[game]

Well KF has started paying of march salaries for the bottom half. :D
Wonder why is he not shutting down the airline instead as it is he has come down to a very minimum of just 11 aircrafts(four 320's two 321's & five ATR's) remaining out of his original fleet of 64 !? :ouch:

[airjet]

when he aquired Deccan its was more like 90 aircraft total, seems impossible that after racking up 1.6 billion USD, he feels he can pay it back with only 11??

[CaptGalaxy]

I dont thnk the idea here is to make any profits at all. If he does infact ever clears the debts (which i feel they may not as it would be a great way to channel profits from other companies/avoid taxes) they may still run it in a way that it woud just about break even.

Cheers
CG

[Capt Apache]

@airjet
Why do you all have to use the phrase 'Incredible India' so sardonically.If you need to be critical and if you are from florida, then you should find it more incredible that the people truly responssible for the subprime crisis are still free.Havent you heard what Standard Chartered has been upto.Don't you find that incredible.
The dollar transactions originated and terminated in European banks in the UK and the Middle East, and were cleared through its New York branch, the complaint said.

BBC News - Q&A: Standard Chartered Iran allegations (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19157426)

And what about the billions that are being speculated that the Euro will fail.Don't you find that incredible.

Stop giving bull**** to Indians.This company was a misadventure and it has failed like any other company in any other part of the world would, if it had a frivolous buisiness plan.This has nothing to do with India and neither is it incredible.

Incredible world I say.

[airjet]

I used the "incredible India" phrase because i happen to think India is "incredible". and i enjoyed all of my 4 years there.
which does not mean that "stupid pride" (saving face) and corruption is not rampant and dragging the country down.:=

[Capt Apache]

There is no 'stupid pride' airjet.On the contrary every Indian is acutely aware and frustrated with the level of corruption.But we are aware of some other things as well.
We are aware that for 50 years from 1900 to 1950 we grew at an impressive rate of 0% under the great British rule and inherited one of the poorest economies of the world after Independence.(Also one of the most poignantly divided)
We are also aware that 65 years later the same West is almost begging us to open our economy (Not that its not in our interest to do so) and is often ready to transfer critical technology to India.Compare this to 1974 when it is alleged that Kissinger threatened to destroy us after we did our first nuclear test (interestingly code-named Smiling Buddha)and you should come to respect the progress we have made.

As for Kingfisher, Bid adieu to Kingfisher.

[blackbirdsr72]

Kingfisher Airlines cancelled over 25 flights this weekend as pilots held a flash agitation over the non-payment of salaries. To put that number into perspective, Kingfisher only operates about 30 flights each day.

Pilots had been assured that one-month’s pay would be provided on Friday. However, the payment (unsurprisingly) never arrived. Flights from Mumbai were most affected by the agitation.

This strike comes shortly after Kingfisher revealed its atrocious Q1 financial performance. Its net margin was less than -300%! Obviously not a sustainable situation..

On the bright side, with pilots planning to continue this strike, we can look forward to another letter from Vijay Mallya :p

Blog courtesy: Aeroblogger

[tolip111111]

NEW DELHI: The head of Kingfisher Airline's pilot training flew a woman in the cockpit on a Delhi-Mumbai flight and when the cabin crew protested, told them to stay away during the journey. The crew of the flight IT 304 of August 19 have now lodged a complaint with the management, saying the pilot flouted DGCA rules by flying an unauthorized person in the cockpit.

"We will investigate the matter," Kingfisher spokesman Prakash Mirpuri said. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation too has ordered a probe and warned of strict action if the pilot is found guilty.

This incident comes at a time when the DGCA is conducting a safety audit of Kingfisher and Air India Express — airlines identified as being in severe financial distress by a DGCA audit last December.

The Kingfisher cabin crew did not press the case against the pilot on August 19 itself as the commander is one of the seniormost pilots of the airline.

In fact, the pilot, GM(training), was among the handful who also fly promoter Vijay Mallya's personal Airbus corporate jet.

Employees have always steered clear of this select group, but with salaries pending since March, the fear is diminishing. As soon as the flight landed in Mumbai, the cabin crew lodged a complaint.

Sources point out that the Kingfisher commander broke many rules while taking the woman into the cockpit, no matter that a co-pilot was present.

"Taking a flyer in the cockpit is itself not allowed. But in this case, asking the cabin crew not to come to the cockpit during the flight is another serious breach," said a source.

"DGCA rules stipulate that when one of the pilots leaves the cockpit for any reason, a crew member must remain there till the former returns. The reason is that since 9/11, the cockpit doors are locked and if for some reason the only pilot in the cockpit gets incapacitated, there must be someone else to open the door for the other pilot."

Any info guys? I guess the man in question is VR.

[Prop.Time]

I guess the man in question is VR.
He is. I thought he was too busy trying to wave the RCB flag at the Chinnaswamy, rather than fly the 'bus!

[cyrilroy21]

Vijay Mallya, 'King of Good Times' offers a gold-plated door to temple, vows to offer another one - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mangalore/Vijay-Mallya-King-of-Good-Times-offers-a-gold-plated-door-to-temple-vows-to-offer-another-one/articleshow/15621951.cms)

[Jet8]

I think he should offer something to Mamta Banerjee :p

[Sky Dancer]

Yeah old Vimal does have a way to get into the limelight.:ok:

[flyjet787]

Kingfisher Airlines faces operational shutdown, says CAPA

New Delhi: Kinghfisher Airlines may have to shut down operations if $600 million cash is not infused in the next two months, the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation (CAPA) said on Friday.
"Kingfisher is able to continue as a result of daily infusions of funding by the promoter. However, with mounting losses the situation is unsustainable. In Q1 (first quarter, 2012-13) the promoters invested $133.9 million, but this barely allows the airline to survive," CAPA said in a report on the Indian airline industry's performance in the first quarter of the current fiscal.
"A viable turnaround is unrealistic without a significant re-capitalisation of the airline. Without an investment of approximately $600 million in the next 30-60 days, Kingfisher faces the prospect of an operational shutdown, possibly temporarily, to allow it to restructure and re-organise," it said.
According to the advisory company, a restructuring of the airline will require banks to take a significant hit as they have huge exposure to bad debt given to the carrier.
The airline also faces frequent labour unrest with one group or the other of employees going on flash strike demanding payment of salaries and other reimbursements.
The airline had the lowest market share in July which stood at 3.4 per cent.
The report estimated the airline to make a total loss of $220-$260 million in 2012-13. The company had reported a net loss of Rs.650.78 crore ($117 million) for the quarter ended June 30, 2012.
"The uncertainly regarding the scale of Kingfisher's operations means that any outlook for the carrier's financial is very difficult to estimate, and its full year loss could be higher than expected," the report said.
On Air India, CAPA said the airline would be able to cut losses for 2012-13 to around $one billion on improved domestic operations. It had earlier estimated the loss to be of $1.3 billion.
AI's domestic revenue increased 6 per cent in the quarter under review from the corresponding quarter of last fiscal. It also achieved third highest domestic market share in August at 18.2 per cent.
"The national carrier needs to take advantage of the current domestic market conditions to focus on its restructuring by further reducing its cost base, improving productivity and solving its outstanding HR issues," the report said.
CAPA said the four private players - SpiceJet, IndiGo, GoAir and Jet Airways - are on track to achieve $200 million profit for 2012-13.
"In the first quarter ended June 30, these four private carriers are estimated to have achieved a profit of approximately $40 million," CAPA added.


Kingfisher Airlines faces operational shutdown, says CAPA - Business News - IBNLive (http://ibnlive.in.com/news/kingfisher-faces-operational-shutdown-says-capa/285240-7.html)

[airjet]

@apache
sigh! after 65 years it is still "all the Raj`s" fault how sad, if that is true then "incredible India" is truly doomed.

[Mr.Bloggs]

Why are Indians often so sensitive to criticism, even when it often is not criticism? We like them, we like India, but see the country for what it is....a friendly but muddled mess, corrupt and inefficient as many other places. And very smelly. :))

Captain Apache, you seem to be over-reacting here. Chill, man....

[Kristoff]

I don't understand why at least a decent number of FOs/skippers (with time) don't leave India. The opportunities appear to be there.

The paperwork & utter BS to attain a damn PPL is shocking, the way I see it, anywhere is better than than India - except maybe US regionals but that's a whole new topic.

[heavenbound]

This is interesting- wonder if there's hope now? http://aerospacediary.********.in/2012/09/exclusive-vijay-mallya-will-he-wont-he.html

[Capt Apache]

@airjet
Even Churchill said the same thing in 1947 but there is more doom looming over the West at the moment than over India.Oh but you obviously can't see that.Stupid pride is it ?
I'm not sensitive to criticism.I'm sensitive to bull****.

[Kristoff]

Sure the Business was flawed since it's inception, but the employees let the business get away with not paying their salaries - this has been going on for quite some time & is especially evident in Indian carriers...

When people settle, businesses take advantage - I don't see this kind of situation occurring in HK or any other Aviation Hub where an airline doesn't pay it's staff for periods exceeding 5 months, the sad thing is the employees continue to work without pay .

Unique to India is the ridiculously blatant displays of corruption, it's not just the Airline(KF), it's also how things are done (DGCA) - a complete joke.

[airjet]

lol apache is all riled up, don`t sweat the small stuff, maybe the DGCA will wake up sometime soon, until then continue with the "incredible" things like working for no pay for 5 months --now THATS incredible--:ok:

[Capt Apache]

Don't worry about my mood or my job.Just stop pretending you belong to a perfect world.You need to wake up more than DGCA .:}

I'm no one to judge KF pilots.Maybe you are.

In 1994,Graen and Wakabayashi studied companies like Toyota that had manufacturing plants both in Japan and U.S.Some of the relevant cultural differences they found are as follows:
1)Japanese managers were shocked by what they saw as an American managers seemingly underdeveloped sense of obligation to their companies and co-workers.They believed that American managers place their personal interests above those of the company and their co-workers.
2)American managers do not commit their entire career to a single company.Japanese hoped that everyone hired will retire with the company.They had difficulty accepting that an American could join them and leave within a year for a direct competitor.
3)The Americans feared that adopting the Japanese system could subvert traditional American values of individualism.On the other hand,the Japanese feared that adopting the American system could undermine traditional Japanese values.

The above Japanese attitude is relevant in the Indian context as well.Ofcourse there will always be p:mad:s like Mallya who will take advantage of even the most loyal.
Im not sayin the American system is in anyway inferior.All Im saying is that we must atleast attempt to observe societies in their cultural context.

[airjet]

As per your comment about judging KFA pilots, since i worked for KFA for 3 years. What i can tell you is, they were mostly dedicated to the co. which makes it even more disgraceful the way they have been treated.