Resume Gripes.

[alpha_papa_lima]

For all the people out there who find plenty of CV's and resumes dumped in their inbox, or to anyone with an informed opinion - what are the biggest gripes you have had with resumes from low hour pilots.

Aside from people saying they are 'endorsed' on a 152, what grinds your gears? Also, what are some things to include that would sway a prospective employer to use your resume for something other than darts practice.

APL

[Lasiorhinus]

Spelling errors.

Especially if its the name of an aircraft.

[Howard Hughes]

In no particular order Spelling, Grammar and Syntax!

Just so you know I am a year 11 drop out, if I can pick errors in your resume, then you are not travelling too well!;)

[Horatio Leafblower]

Personal referees disguised as professional referees.

It always comes out somewhere in the reference check that "...actually no, I wasn't his Chief Pilot. He's a mate, and he had a bit of a personality clash with the old Chief Pilot..."

...and usually every other Chief Pilot and employer he's ever had :ugh:

[ProProp]

Too much irrelevant information
Too long (should never be more than 2 pages).
Too difficult to find what I want.
Everything crammed together (should be well spaced and easy to read)

I shouldn't have to look past the first page to find out if you meet the requirements for a job i.e. Hours and qualifications. Endorsements work history and personal information can go on the second page.

I don't care if you won 3rd place in your year 8 swimming championships or are interested in cricket or line dancing. If I wanted to know that (which I don't), I would ask you in the interview.

All a CV should do is get me excited enough to want to meet you in person. If you include your life history, then what is the point of interviewing you?

[Aileron Roll]

Really love the glamour photos in the latest ski gear, and unshaven for past 3 days!

[VH-XXX]

- Not being qualified for the job
- Not being endorsed on the required aircraft
- Not having the required mimimum hours (by a long way)
- Not having a clue
- Stupid statements like "I'm not endorsed on the PC12 but I've seen them taxi past my flying school so I know I can get an endorsement"

[RadioSaigon]

Apart from the spelling, grammar, piss-poor syntax, excessive detail and obvious scatter-bombing errors committed, I have personally received one CV, via fax (8 pages of it, as I recall) at 22:00 on the night we lost an aircraft, it's pilot (a close personal friend) and 4 of his pax. It wasn't inadvertent: the cover-letter stated "as you are now a pilot short..." or words to that effect. We had just stood-down from SAR-ops at the time, the office was packed with people. It just happened that I was closest to the fax machine at the moment this started to arrive. I wasn't CP of that organisation, just a line-pilot, but chose to destroy the fax the moment I saw what it was without letting anyone else know what it was -quite a mission on its own. I wish now I had kept the 1st page, for no other reason than to vent my spleen at the inconsiderate little mongrel that sent it.

[Defenestrator]

In no particular order:

- I'm glad to see the list of previous employers. I have no interest however in the duties you performed at Blogs Fast Food.
- List your hours in an easy to read format. And if you put multi-time on your CV and neglect to note the Multi PIC I probably won't look at your CV again. It begs me to ask a question that I would normally ask at the interview you won't be invited to.
- If you can't spell or string a sentence together without errors, it's not likely that I'll be trusting you with important company paperwork. It's all in the detail.
- Got a CV recently from some muppet with a picture of said muppet AND his kids. WTF is that all about??
- Regardless of the reasons you left/were asked to leave your previous positions, put all your previous CP's down as referree's. Everyone makes mistakes. Trust that your prospective employer can see that. If they can't you probably wouldn't want to work there.

That'll do.

D.

[Back Seat Driver]

How many r's in referree? (sic) Afterall, it is all in the details.

[Creampuff]

When I’m reading through a pile of résumés that contains a resume, I immediately resume reading the résumés.

There is an amusing range of spellings of ‘curriculum vitae’, too.

KISS, not French or Latin.

“Put all your previous CP’s down as referree’s.” Pot calling black; Pot calling black… One ‘r’ and one apostrophe too many there.

[Defenestrator]

Come in spinner......

D

[Creampuff]

No doubt the four other grammatical errors were intended as well. ;)

[VH-XXX]

A picture you with the wife and kids is not necessarily a bad thing. Really depends what the employer is looking for. Someone who is married with kids might be more level headed and less reckless than a single 18 yr old CPL...
Likewise a picture of you is good if you don't look like a terrorist. A picture is good for the interviewer to remember you by too.

[Mach E Avelli]

Total round file material:
The big posed pic with four gold bars on a 250 hour shoulder or even a 2500 hour shoulder. C'mon guys, until you are left seat in something over 20,O00 kg who are you kidding?
Next main gripe is disguising real hours and in what position on each type. If you have a B 737 endorsement bought in some simulator but no hours don't piss down my leg with claims of being a qualified B 737 pilot. Until you have driven the thing on someone's payroll you are NOT a B 737 pilot regardless of what is stamped in your license. Sorry, that's the way it is.
And not interested in your time at Maccas as burgermeister. While you need to pitch your cv at the target, don't pad it out with trivial experience. If you are chasing a job on a station and can ride a horse that could be relevant. If you are looking at an operator who does scenic tours and you worked as a tour guide on a boat or somesuch, ditto.Otherwise if you have nothing better to offer, tell me about the time you spent sweeping out the hangar at Bloggs Air Charter and I may just be interested in your dedication to the business.

[Ixixly]

Quick question, aimed at the guys who are referring to putting down previous employers. I have a decent background in Hospitality and 3 of my jobs were Management positions and as such have been put down but none of the many others, would you guys consider that acceptable?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Love these ones....

C150. 15.3 hrs dual 22.4 hrs solo 102 landings
C152. 12.6 hrs dual 35.4 hrs solo 86 landings
C172. 37.0 hrs dual 64.0 hrs solo 73 landings
PA28R 22.1 hrs dual 39.9 hrs solo 53 landings

And Kiwis chasing Aussie jobs (which seems to be all of you at some stage of your careers...why don't we just save the hassle and make it the eighth state?:}) don't list your hours in two decimal places, we only use one and we have an endorsement that covers (most) single engine pistons below 5700kg.
Do not list endorsements on C150, C152, C172, C172RG, C182, C182RG, C206, C210, PA38, PA28, PA28R, PA32, PA32R etc etc etc as it shows complete ignorance of the licensing system in the country you want to work in.
Instructors, same thing. Read a document called the Day VFR syllabus. Learn it! Australia does not have a 50 hour minimum for the PPL license.

[VH-XXX]

It's definitely worth noting 200 Series Cessna time but perhaps don't bother breaking down 100 series time as noted above.

As for including management when in hospitality, why not? They are often loosely related. You'll be one step ahead of the other guy that has only worked at Maccas.

[Checkboard]

What if was management at Maccas? ;)

[Horatio Leafblower]

When I’m reading through a pile of résumés that contains a resume, I immediately resume reading the résumés.

Yes. Well. From the thread title I DID initially think this thread must be a moderator's announcement stating PPRuNe would cease all positive useful threads and go back to PPRuNe Ops Normal: Whinging! :}

[Mach E Avelli]

"What if was management at Maccas? " Jeez, I'd be quaking in my boots that you might be after my job.

Seriously though, it is better to understate your peripheral qualifications than overstate them. Most entry jobs only require that your hours and ratings meet the insurance minima and that you are neat, tidy, good with basic paperwork and most importantly can fly the boss's machine without frightening the punters or breaking it.

[maxgrad]

All of the above......with bells

[Tinstaafl]

Instant don't-get-the-job:

* Applying for an advertised position without meeting the specs. in the ad.
* You paid for a type rating or some other pay-for-experience in commercial operations scheme.

Annoyances that usually lead to the round file:

* Using 'frozen ATPL'. You hold a CPL (or whatever). That's what is written on the licence so that's the qualification you have. You didn't claim to have a 'frozen CPL' after doing the CPL exams, did you? Or a 'frozen PPL' after passing the PPL theory? Jeez, I loathe 'marketing speak' & hype.
* Including sim or other flight training device in total hours. If I wanted sim or FTD time it would be requested in the ad.
* Claiming IFR time as IF time. The two are not the same.
* Poor spelling etc

Minor annoyance:

* Hours given to the .1. Please round down to the nearest hour (if low houred), nearest 10 if reasonably experienced, and nearest hundred if you have lots of hours.

Preferences:

* If you have experience in an aircraft type (or similar type) that is operated by the company then please list your experience on it - even if it's a single engine type.
* Ditto any experience in the types of operations the company does, or the region in which it operates.



Never write on PPRuNe after 0100 after drinking wine. Ditto when preparing one's CV

[Avgas172]

I don't care if you won 3rd place in your year 8 swimming championships or are interested in cricket or line dancing. If I wanted to know that (which I don't), I would ask you in the interview.

Personally I would be happier to see any out of job related activity than none, it's often the only thing that gives away whether or not the applicant has a life.

[baron_beeza]

How about smoker vs non-smoker ?

It may upset some here but I have been in jobs where you literally have to carry some guys while they are skiving-off. I have had bosses say that they would never want to employ a smoker again.

I would have thought that a guy could perhaps allude to his non-smoking habits, admit it or not I know many employers would be swayed.

[Lookleft]

It doesn't,t matter how the person giving the job spells it is still up to the person who wants the job to demonstrate a certain capability with the written word.

[zappalin]

Belting the keyboard on an anonymous internet forum and preparing a formal document that may decide if you do or do not get a job are slightly different kettles of fish...
A CV should be gone over with a fine tooth comb before being sent out - if not, what does that say about the applicant?

[deadcut]

* You payed for a type rating or some other pay-for-experience in commercial operations scheme.

What about paying for 5 hours of C206 time? I heard it is recommended to have that before trying to get a job with any of the operators who hire "green" pilots.

[Checkboard]

* You payed for a type rating or some other pay-for-experience in commercial operations scheme.
I paid for a Seminole rating. A Navajo rating, a Partenavia rating ...

At what point is it a bad thing to increase your professional experience?

Annoyances that usually lead to the round file:

* Poor spelling etc
Payed, Tinny??? :E

[Tinstaafl]

I corrected it. The benefit of 0100 writing + wine then off to bed without proof reading. Not something I'd do prior to sending out a CV.

Mea culpa.

[Tinstaafl]

I've paid for a few endorsements too - but never at the behest of an employer, or potential employer. Nor have I offered to pay for an endorsement to get a job. And certainly not paid to be a co-pilot to gain hours.

Those sorts of things are little more than the company shifting the burden of operating their business onto someone else, but without also passing on reaping the profits. It masks the true cost of operating. You wouldn't expect the office staff to supply the stationery, computers & software and pay the electricity bills, would you?

[Trojan1981]

Those sorts of things are little more than the company shifting the burden of operating their business onto someone else, but without also passing on reaping the profits. It masks the true cost of operating. You wouldn't expect the office staff to supply the stationery, computers & software and pay the electricity bills, would you?

Totally Agree, but even the airlines are demanding this now. It's a joke.
I wouldn't do it, but then I wouldn't fly an airliner! :ok:

[grrowler]

hi im a Asistant to Cheif Pilot and 1 of my Primmary rolls is to look at ppls resumes. i was promotd to this responcable possition becos of my ability to See Things His Way and Go The Extra Mile and becos i am not a newby anymore. i have 201.3 hrs on 200 series planes. (ps it is ok to use desimal places when listing hevisingel time
anyway my pet hat is wen ppl dont spell or use fullstops properly and stuff.

its' ok for me to through stones, becaus i dont liv in a glass house, i liv in a donga behind the cheif pilots house derrrr. :ok:

[seneca208]

What's the general consensus on a follow-up phone call? I understand the general way for newbies to find work is to go and visit the employer, but if a company specifically advertises for a pilot position, (which you meet the requirements for) is it OK to give them a call after emailing in your CV? I understand CP's are busy people, often working in Check and Training roles too and prefer to work through CV's at their own pace through emails. Although I need to stand out from the crowd someway or another.

[Flying Bear]

My offering to the discussion is as follows:

1. In the interests of brevity, there is little value in a "Personal Statement". Referees should be the people to testify to the strengths and admirable attributes of a prospective staff member. Consider your referees carefully!

2. On that note, nominate your referees on the resume - the comment "referees on request" means extra effort in having to go through the motions of asking for them... time spent that could be avoided (and might be by a busy CP!). Have one or two professional referees, possibly one personal if that is felt relevent.

3. Always ask your referees for consent before nominating them on your resume. I have seen that come unstuck for hopefuls more times than I care to remember! A simple "are you happy to be a referee for me in the future?" mitigates potential embarrassment. Personally, I am taken aback when I get called up by a company conducting a reference check for a person to whom I have not given my consent as a referee.

4. Photos on a resume should, perhaps, be avoided. If one is included - be really careful with it! No embellishments on fancy uniforms, but a plain white / blue pilot shirt is fine. Get someone who knows how to use a camera to take the photo so that it does not look like a prison mugshot. You should not be leaning on your favourite aircraft, rather a neutral colour background will suffice. The intent is to have the viewer remember you - not some C152... Be careful of the goofy grin facial expression - for this reason I reckon the photo needs to be avoided. The ideal first visual impression is best delivered in person...

Most importantly,

5. If you are new to the industry, good luck and more power to you, but your resume is likely to be very similar to the several hundred others that companies receive. Therefore, the best resume for the first flying job is always one that is followed up by an actual visit to the company. That shows the prospective employer many positive characteristics (including courage) and allows for easy resume follow up. Many CPs will "blow off" drop in hopefuls, but many will take the time to meet them. Research how different companies handle this for your maximum chance of success.

There have been a lot of good pointers in the posts above - so hopefully there will be some improvement in what gets around now!

[outbacktourer]

Some awesome responses in here, rather enjoyed reading this thread. I think as you "grow up" you tend to pay attention to more than just the basics of a resume and start to put more detail as to what the KSC is.. My 2C

[system.of.a.down]

As the saying goes; "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time"

Does it really matter if the applicant types 'resume' and not résumé? Does this make the person any less suitable for the flying position? FFS I can see at least 5 flying job ads on the AFAP page that spell it 'resume'. Get over it, everyone makes spelling mistakes, even my ATPL text books have typo's.

As for those who say "It's about attention to detail", yet criticise someone who rounds their flying hours to nearest decimal point, make up your mind!

Have you all got too much time on your hands? maybe use all this time giving each of them a call?

Hmm, never mind, throw that resume in the bin, your loss could be another employers gain.

[outnabout]

The Boss reaches for matches to set fire to resumes with:

Spelling mistakes.

Resumes written in "text speak" - eg C U L8R (don't laugh, it's happened). (Growler, :D)

Low time pilots who haven't included their hours on type. Licenced to fly any aircraft under 5700kgs might be a licence but it may not meet the Time on Type which the insurance asks for. Especially frustrating if the job ad specifies "successful applicant must have x hours in command on y type".

Low time pilots who haven't included their command time. (Or in some instances, total time.)

Pilots of any experience who include a photo on their resume when the photo is taken in a (ahem) social situation. Or have edited the photo to cut in half the person's face next to them. Make it professional, or not at all.

Please include a short list of interests other than flying. Apparently it shows a well-rounded individual. (Or not. No points to the applicant who listed his interests as aviation, and pornography).

RadioSaigon - I admire your restraint.

[VH-XXX]

Oh and if the minimum says 1,000 hours total time, then writing 1000.1 does look suspect!

[gileraguy]

I watched a GM going through resumes once and it was quite enlightening.

This chap, who had only ever worked for the one organisation in his life and had attained his position because of his lack of untrustworthiness (and time of service) was an education to say the least.

He actually looked for any negative as an excuse to cull a resume.

If the applicant spelt his name wrongly (and it was similar to a brand of beer) he immediately discarded the applicant.

He just looked for excuses to knock the applicant, NOT the reasons why the applicant would be the best fir for the position.

In the end, the people he hired were woefull and the "least offensive" people who applied.

Staff turnover was in the area of 30% annually, morale was crap and I recall calling him a "pod". (pods aren't people)
The nickname stuck and he became "the pod" after that.

There was even an applicant for the receptionist position who delivered her resume personally in a striking outfit and I swear she had oiled her legs.
She was recommended enthusiastically by ALL the male staff!
Guess what, she didn't get the job!

The business survived because it was in an industry that only competed with mum and dad organisations. They were a big fish in a small pond.

Anyhoo, for what its worth, DON'T have a pic on the resume, watch your facebook posts as if you're researching yourself, google yourself ('cause any employer will)

and if you suck d1ck long enough you'll get the career you deserve.

for futher reading, google "industrial psychopath"...

[Ixixly]

and if you suck d1ck long enough you'll get the career you deserve.

Freaking brilliant gileraguy!!!

Thanks for the responses to my question, basically as I thought, good to know though as i've been applying for a lot of jobs...I've been shortlisted for 3 jobs in the last 3months but seem to keep getting just beaten out and not getting a lot of feedback as to where i've fallen short. Keep getting told it was just a matter of someone more qualified but that doesn't really help me with the next application!! And yes, before someone suggests it, I've met the minimums for all the jobs i've been applying for!!

Another question, slightly oddball this time. Has anyone ever personally experienced something similar to this old tale:
Chief Pilot sitting with a stack of resumes infront of him, roughly selects the first half of this pile and promptly drops it in the bin exclaiming, "I don't want any unlucky pilots!"

Heard it a few times, keen to find out if anyones experienced it or maybe whom its attributed to!!

[Flying Bear]

Maybe you should.

Sending resumes out from Melbourne won't cause a CP to prioritise you and fall over him / herself to speak with you when there are many others with the gumption to turn up and present themselves personally. NT operators commonly get 50 - 100 resumes per week by e-mail.

Unless, of course, you have massive amounts of the "200 series" time that these operators are supposed to cherish... that would be a different story.

Minor point - but isn't 08 July (the day of your post and alleged telephone call) a Sunday? Most operators of charter in the NT are not open (at least in the office) on Sundays and it is unlikely that the CP will respond on the Sabbath...

[Creampuff]

Fact is that in a very competitive employment market sector, employers have to decide how to reject what might otherwise be technically capable applicants. If an employer has 1 position and 5 technically capable applicants, mathematics requires 4 to be rejected. In those circumstances, any flaw in the application ‘helps’ the employer to justify rejection. Remember: the average time dedicated by an employer to reviewing each application is around 2 minutes.

And I think junior pilots tend to make the mistake of believing there’s a complete separation between his (it’s usually a ‘him’) airmanship on the one hand, and his attention to detail in areas like written communication and his judgment calls when including a picture, in a résumé, of him with an arm around his mate at the pub giving the ‘thumbs up’. Fact is that most employers don’t consider there’s a complete separation. Further, even if there is a complete separation, the employer wants employees who are going to reflect well on the business. Bad judgments and slack attitudes of employees on the ground can still reflect badly on the employer, even if completely unrelated to aircraft operations.

Finally, it’s a cruel world out there. Fact is that sometimes bad applicants get good jobs, and good applicants don’t. Fact is that there are bad employers who would prefer ‘morally malleable’ employees over people prepared to stand by their principles. If you’re a good applicant and can’t find a good employer, do yourself a favour and go mining for a while. A couple of hundred grand in your bank account will make the world look a little different. :ok:

[kingRB]

A question for those of you guys that are employers...

Is it generally a bad idea, or a good way to "stand out from the crowd" by snail mailing a hardcopy of your application & CV to the operator when the advertisement provides an email address for applications?

Personally I would follow the advertisement application directions, but am I limiting myself to being just another number in potentially hundreds of applications received by doing this?

[Trojan1981]

Creampuff, nice post, but it doesn't strike me as a particularly competitive market sector at all. At least it is not competitive on ability.

From the above stories (and others I know from my own experience) I would say many pilots miss out through the sheer volume of applicants combined with lazy/incompetent or just busy CPs. It is much easier to give someone a job when they follow up their résumé by walking through the front door and having a chat, than it is to Wade through hundreds of CVs while you should be working.

I know some great pilots who missed out on positions and some worthless, lazy and stupid (in the truest sense of the word) people who have secured employment. Many of the latter become CPs because all the good pilots move onto greener pastures. I'm not saying this with any bitterness, as I have never been knocked back for a flying job to date, just an observation of an industry whose culture seems to run counter to the rest of the business world.

[Tankengine]

Walking into the office right when they need a pilot will work better than a resume. Word of mouth may help you walk in at the right time.;)

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

Maybe you should.

Sending resumes out from Melbourne won't cause a CP to prioritise you and fall over him / herself to speak with you when there are many others with the gumption to turn up and present themselves personally. NT operators commonly get 50 - 100 resumes per week by e-mail.

Mr.Bear, I'd be more than happy to knock on the front door and buy the lad a few beers. However I would like to have a civilized talk to the CP over the phone to discuss some matters. As previously mentioned above, been over 3 weeks with no reply. Yes I do understand CP's are busy, but out of professional courtesy, please send an email back stating whether you have progressed to the next stage or have been unsuccessful in this instance.

I love KingRB's idea of mailing a hard copy of the documents. But is it generally a bad idea :confused:

[Flying Bear]

The hard copy letter would most likely be neither here nor there for most CPs - e-mail is fine and more easily organised for recall.

As advocated several times above, the best pitch is an actual visit. Most experienced pilots know the pain of this, but unfortunately our industry has shaped that way and although I go against the notion of "incompetent CPs" raised above as a reasoning for their lack of response, I would offer that busy CPs have lots of things they need to be doing and the best way to get their attention is to actually be there physically. A decent CP will take the time to say "g'day" or alternatively will have some "local procedure" for when it is best to call in. Remember, the CP's job is difficult enough without being required to constantly respond to solicitations from hopeful pilots, especially if the Company is not recruiting and has not advertised. It is nice when a CP does respond, though, but the sheer volume of applicants would preclude a response to everyone and although that may be seen as rude by the applicant, bear in mind there is two sides to every story. So, stand out from the crowd, but be patient and realise the greater the effort, the more likely your success will be for at least getting an interview!

Never buy a CP a beer to try and win a position...

If you have questions of a CP that you feel need to be discussed before physically visiting, maybe you should try an e-mail to the CP with those questions and maybe he / she will respond in detail at their convenience. Where a CP is currently busy when you call (say, doing a flight check or similar if they are an ATO) they are not likely to drop everything to take your call. This is not a lack of professional courtesy! I'm sure you'd be a tad annoyed if, during your check with the CP, he interrupted you to take a call from a new CPL interstate who he / she has never met hoping to secure a job...

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

Thank you for clarifying a few things Mr.Bear. I shall send an email with those questions and hopefully I can get a response. :ok:

[morno]

Sitting in Melbourne will NOT get you a job.

Get up and go up north.

If you can give me a good reason as to why you shouldn't, I'll listen. But I bet you can't, :hmm:.

morno

[Trojan1981]

Hi Flying Bear,

although I go against the notion of "incompetent CPs" raised above as a reasoning for their lack of response

I'm referring specifically to Ixixly's above post regarding a CP simply dumping the first half of the pile because he couldn't be bothered looking at them when I say that. I'm not referring to anyone I have known. As you say, they are generally busy and are not HR staff.

Best one I know of yet is from a mate who flew from Darwin to Melbourne for an interview and sim ride (obviously a larger operator). When he landed in Mel there was a message on his phone saying it was cancelled; no explanation, no re-schedule and no contact number! Incompetent. I would have followed up with a statement of demand from my solicitor personally.

Anyway, several months later he scored a gig with one of the majors and the original company that had earlier stood him up called to offer him another position! You can guess where he told them to jam it!

[aileron_69]

Makeithappencaptain: I understand what you are saying here:

And Kiwis chasing Aussie jobs (which seems to be all of you at some stage of your careers...why don't we just save the hassle and make it the eighth state?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif) don't list your hours in two decimal places, we only use one and we have an endorsement that covers (most) single engine pistons below 5700kg.
Do not list endorsements on C150, C152, C172, C172RG, C182, C182RG, C206, C210, PA38, PA28, PA28R, PA32, PA32R etc etc etc as it shows complete ignorance of the licensing system in the country you want to work in.

and can sympathise with you to a certain extent.
However, as someone who a few years back came to this country for work, I can see both sides to your argument.
If someone states on their resume that they hold a NZCAA Commercial licence with ratings (they're called ratings over there) on x, y, z aircraft, then I dont see how that is a problem? In fact for an employer here, provided some of those aircraft types were in your fleet, that would surely be an advantage. As rather than just having flown the aircraft, it means the applicant has also done an engineering paper, and done proper conversion training on the aircraft, so they should have a pretty reasonable grasp of the idiosyncrasies of the type. Yes, I know light singles arent that complex, but to a 220hr pilot its all new and exciting.
When I came to this country, I didnt even hold an Australian licence, I merely had an approval from CASA to operate Australian registered aircraft. And its very easy to say "learn the rules of the country you are trying to obtain a job in" but when applying to get a CASA licence through the TTMRA conversion, there was no mention that Australia is ICAO, but only kind of, cos whe have our own bastardized version. There is no requirement to sit a law exam, but I think the problem here is in the legislation, maybe it should be made mandatory?
If a pilot is writing that they hold a CASA CPL with endorsements on C152, C172, etc etc, by all means, tell them to sort that **** out tho!! All I will say is, I was very surprised when I got here to find how different the rules and regs are here!!!
For the record, several years and a few thousand hours later, I still have on my resume that I hold a NZCPL with ratings on about 23 different aircraft types, then under that I write that I hold a CASA CPL with my endorsements written accordingly (ie retrac, csu, tailwheel etc) and I have never been turned down for a job yet.

[VH-XXX]

I do recall a while back to the poor chap that posted on here about how he travelled all over the country ending up in Darwin looking for a job and didn't find one, contrary to everyone on here saying "go north." I do wonder what happened to him after all that went by.

[Creampuff]

Interesting perspective in your 9th Jul 2012 01:27 post, Trojan. From my perspective the content of your post is entirely consistent with what I was trying (perhaps unsuccessfully) to say.

100s of unsolicited résumés for non-existent vacancies, or even 100s of applications for a single vacancy? I’d call that a market that’s very competitive for those wanting a job as a pilot.

Compare, for example, what happens if a tradie puts his or her hand up to work in the mines. The mining companies will compete to win over the tradie. (That won’t last, but it’s the reality for the time being.)

Bad people getting good jobs and progressing? That’s what I said – cruel world and all that.[A]n industry whose culture seems to run counter to the rest of the business world.That’s why the industry, collectively, bleeds billions, annually. In effect, lots of people are spending more money than they make, in order to live a dream … for a while.

The unique ‘culture’ arises from the fact that the participants earnestly and uniquely believe that humans will, eventually, cease behaving like humans.

PS: I was genuinely sad when the 'Trojan' call sign was passed from C-130 to C-17. I suppose we're all getting older...

[Checkboard]

Sitting in Melbourne will NOT get you a job.
It might get you an instructing job :)

[seneca208]

Yes I do understand CP's are busy, but out of professional courtesy, please send an email back stating whether you have progressed to the next stage or have been unsuccessful in this instance.

The last couple of positions I have applied for, both advertised and unadvertised, I was unfortunately unsuccessful but received a return email from the Chief Pilot. The unsuccessful positions were basically stating they had a number of more competitive applications than myself (better qualified?) which is 100 times better than no reply at all. For unadvertised positions, the CP has replied stating company requirements, the best time for me to pop in and see him when I am in Darwin/Katherine/Alice and that he hopes to see me soon in the near future.

I suggest if you aren't getting any replies, make a phone call or send another email through. Let them know its been a fortnight or so, you understand they are busy, but you'd really appreciate hearing about the best way to gain employment at XXX. It's worked for me every time so far, and it's made job hunting just that little bit more pleasant.

[Trojan1981]

All good points Creampuff, spot on about how the industry operates.

PS: I was genuinely sad when the 'Trojan' call sign was passed from C-130 to C-17. I suppose we're all getting older...

Indeed! It's also a funny feeling when the aircraft types to which you were posted start appearing in museums! :ok:

[smiling monkey]

Aren't some of us glad we no longer need to apply for GA jobs anymore with all that pedantic BS that goes with a job application :E

[Howard Hughes]

When did accuracy of the written word, become pedantic BS?:rolleyes:

[gileraguy]

I have to say that the general level of incompetence I encounter daily is unbelievable. Considering the stringent requirements in job add (where you have to have basically doing the job for five years) it seems that employers are hiring the most compliant recruits possible, not necessarily the best for the job.

Also, If your resume is not in the first 20 to arrive, you'll be placed in the circular file for almost any position nowadays.

This crash is a real education for Gen Y. Never having experienced a recession before is challenging, to say the least.

[Defenestrator]

I've never binned a single resume. Not once. If you've taken the time to call, and I have time to talk, I'll gladly have a chat to you regardless of your experience level. Unfortunately CAO 82.3 appx IV, and charter clients, set the minimum experience requirements. Not me. I don't keep a hard file of CV's. They're filed in sub folders in my inbox. That way I can access them anywhere I have a connection or data.

Sent from my iPhone which is prone to causing grammatical errors.


D

[baron_beeza]

Although the boom years are rather cyclic in nature there is never really an easy road to that first gig.
Much of the problem seems to stem from the youngsters that 'graduate' with a CPL and seem to think they are somehow qualified as a Pilot. Many operators expect much more than just some form of flying ability.

I know of two guys at least that have scored jobs without a CPL.
The last was about twenty years ago and the operators didn't relish going through a pile of CV's from some out of town prospectives. They chose instead someone who had been flying on a PPL for many years and asked him if he would be interested in changing occupations.
I covered the position and helped tutor him through the CPL subjects while he got himself organised. The delay was only a few months and there was no loss to the business. In the end they got a pilot who gave a couple of decades service. Possibly about 18 or so years more than any of the names in the CV pile..
Some Companies just don't need a turn-over of inexperienced pilots. It may not depend on how personable you are, how well you fly, or the hours in the logbook... they just don't want to go through the hiring mode again in 18 months time.

Horses for courses I am afraid.

I have seen the volume, and content, of many CV's received by 3rd level operators. I cannot see how all those applicants could ever expect a reply.
We have all done it, sent a chain email, or letter, to every possible Company that you think you may have a chance with.

Those that actually have a job normally have better things to do, - normally something a little more productive.

tell him he's dreaming - YouTube

The CP also has to show restraint at times. :O

[Dash8capt]

Forget the photos!
Don't add the recruitment email to your spam or chain mail list!
Get a real resume put together! One page cover letter, One page resume, and another page for referees. How many times have people said "one page flying resume" This hardly means send 20 pages of your life story including your Iphoto library.

[gerry111]

Trojan 1981 and Creampuff, I well know the feeling....

I'm looking at the presentation gift that I received from ARDU Social Club in 1987 when I left the RAAF after twelve years service.

All the then operational aircraft are pictured.

Mirage 111O; Mirage 111D; CT 4 Airtrainer; C47B Dakota; Macchi MB 326H; F111C; Bell UH-1H and Bell 206B-1.

Perhaps the odd Kiowa is still flying with Army? :{

[diddly squat]

Forget the photos!

I disagree.

[propblast]

Hmmmm, lets see. Killers in the CV department.

Try not to get the spelling wrong for the companies name. (yes I know some are testing, but it's open book)
Don't, repeat, don't leave the name of the previous company that you applied at in the cover letter.......or in the subject.
Don't offer to work for free.
Or that you (insert aircraft type here) that is available but only you get to fly it.
Don't offer to pay me to work for me.
Don't demand twice the award, plus better conditions. Save that part of the negotiations for after the jobs been offered, and probably only if you are really experienced or expert negotiator (or have incriminating photos):E.

And as mentioned earlier, if there has been an accident or incident in a company, don't race out and shoot off a resume. Wait a little while, listen to the grapevine and find out what they are doing.

The Do's:
Keep it simple.
Keep it short.
Keep it to the point.
Keep it neat. (basically keep it looking like someone other than my 6 year old nephew wrote it.)
Keep yourself clean shaven (includes the men) :}
Keep yourself ready to move quickly.
If your going to include a photo, make it a passport photo. No wings, party shots, self portrait shots etc


Oh and when emailing. Please please please send it in a readable format. So that means .doc not .docx
Companies are updating their systems as fast as you. Nothing worse than receiving an email and not being able to open the attachment. Will kill your chance everytime.

This is what worked for me, when I was on both sides of the fence.

[BlatantLiar]

I always preferred to convert my emailed CVs to .pdf rather than leave them as .doc. I thought it looked better.

[pilotchute]

After being with my first company for a while the CP asked me to help go through his modest pile of hopefulls. The 3 or 4 we picked (had to have a NVFR which suprisingly few had) to call had all got gigs somewhere else as some of the files we had been sitting on for a few months.

In desperation we rang some flying schools and asked if anyone had just finished and needed a job. Well apparently FNQ is much to far away for a 250 hour hopefull to travel for a job. Will I get a travel allowance one asked. The fact we had dropped our minimum from 750 hours to zip didn't seem to make a difference.

[Checkboard]

Photos on resumes: 3 Reasons You Shouldn’t Put a Photo on Your Resume (http://melissacooley.com/2010/07/3-reasons-no-photo-resume/)

[NIK320]

In desperation we rang some flying schools and asked if anyone had just finished and needed a job. Well apparently FNQ is much to far away for a 250 hour hopefull to travel for a job.I would have killed for that sort of opportunity when I finished training.
No idea what was offered so it must have either been unappealing or they where nuts.

[Checkboard]

I turned down a "job" in Tennant Creek (I think it was) - simply because when I rang and spoke to them the pay and conditions where terrible.

I bet that it wasn't that no one wanted a job n FNQ at 250 hours - I bet that it was a below award slave wage illegal employment. :hmm:

[VH-XXX]

Something frustrating is those that are quite experienced and in some regards "over-qualified" for the job. They send in their resume and clearly stand out, but then have the nerve to complain that the conditions aren't good enough for them, the cash not enough and how they won't work behind a bar to subsidise their accommodation at the pub at the back of Bourke.

A junior job is a junior job. A job with 250 hours as a requirement is a starting job and those that want the fast aircraft with the regular hours and the better pay, look elsewhere!

[drag king]

Quite an interesting subject, this is! Especially for me, who is planning to follow his girl to the other side of the world but has not "special appeal" other than some reasonable pilot experience!

I hope this is not regarded as a tread-hijack but I would like to hear from the other posters, since many of them are obviously sitting in the recruiter's chair.

As a potential EU expat I know I won't stand a chance until I get my CASA license but then I need to start knocking doors and that's when in gets tough. As I said before I have some reasonable experience, above the 1500 hrs-marks, ME turboprop time, speak couple of EU languages and the will to pick up an entry job anywhere-hopefully it won't be one of those "junior" jobs right from the start!

The plan is to persuade someone that I am worth being sponsored to stay, it's that simple. I sincerely hope this doesn't set someone on fire (you know what I mean) but if that was the case, then I am prepared to offer pretty solid counter-arguments. Fair play, nothing else.

To contribute to the OP, I would suggest any job-seeker to invest a bit of money on couple of those CV-guidelines books rather than picking the tips from the web. They are not bibles but they might offer you a neutral approach, then you have to put a lot of hard work in moulding your CV to the right shape. Yes it is true that today's profiling softwares require pretty standard formats but it's also true that not every company can afford them. A polite, professional and PERSONAL approach to a potential employer is the key, me thinks! And it all applies to the cover letter as well.

On a lighter note:

In desperation we rang some flying schools and asked if anyone had just finished and needed a job. Well apparently FNQ is much to far away for a 250 hour hopefull to travel for a job.

I would have killed for that sort of opportunity when I finished training.
No idea what was offered so it must have either been unappealing or they where nuts.

After I qualified as FI I had to sit on my hands for nearly 1 year, then I was "offered" a junior-position in a one-man-band operation, didn't work out well (the cash-flow was not there to keep it going), so back to the original FTO where I got started on...ahem...ZERO/hrs. That kept me current while I was working a night-shift job to feed me and pay the room but there was simply no life. When a mate suggested to get in touch with another friend who was instructing in Ireland I was on the 1st morning flight to Dublin. His boss arranged me an interview over the same WE and once back home all I had left to do was to pack and move my life to the green isle...

Shame that even then my 20's were loooong gone! :{

DK :ok:

[dribbler]

First piece if advice is don't follow an Aussie girl anywhere except to the bar.

[drag king]

First piece if advice is don't follow an Aussie girl anywhere except to the bar. Mind you, I could say more for the pommy girls I knew before I married one.

Quite wise, mate! I forgot to mention mine is EU (but she has a PhD...) as me, so that might be safer...not! :}

DK :ok:

[Jamair]

Something like this, with a suitable covering letter.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p271/jamair_photos/Resume-Format.jpg

Read the ad (if there is one) and ensure you have included whatever info that has been asked for.

FFS make sure your referees KNOW that they are your referees!

[Defenestrator]

Hey Jamair,

That pretty much covers it. Only change I'd make is to change the Multi-Engine to Multi-Engine PIC.

D

[RadioSaigon]

...you should probably ensure that your own grammar is up to scratch before you go judging others for theirs.

Thanks for the constructive criticism Smash Bugger... but after several re-readings of the post apparently in question, I still see no gross grammatical errors. Sure, the language use is a little colloquial, but that reflects this environment, my personality to a degree and the way that I speak. I would be very interested to know where you perceive gross grammatical error. Further, whilst use of colloquialism and use of "every day" language here in a "casual" environment is quite appropriate, use of the same language in a formal document such as a job application is entirely inappropriate -which was, of course, my point in its entirety.

:E

[terminus mos]

You should not put your referees' contact details on the resume. You can give them when requested. There is a risk or referee fatigue if they get a call from everyone to whom you have submitted your resume. If you submit them when requested, you have time to coach them specifically to the requirements of the job you are applying for.

You should not put your DOB on a resume either. It should be a short "sales" document on you, your ability and experience.

[mcgrath50]

With Multi time, I have no PIC but a handful of dual hours (from my MECIR training). Should I put the multi hours down or just let the MECIR in the qualifications section speak for the fact I will have some dual hours on a multi engine plane?

[Defenestrator]

Just break down you multi. Having no PIC is going to be the case at some point in your career. Listing total ME time and no breakdown won't see you make my short list. Everyone has there bug bear. That's mine.

D :ok:

[Howard Hughes]

You should not put your referees' contact details on the resume. You can give them when requested. There is a risk or referee fatigue if they get a call from everyone to whom you have submitted your resume. If you submit them when requested, you have time to coach them specifically to the requirements of the job you are applying for.

You should not put your DOB on a resume either. It should be a short "sales" document on you, your ability and experience.
Referres should be included if applying for an advertised position, not required if canvassing potential employers. Agreed there is no requirement to put your DOB on your resume, however in some instances this may be to your advantage (however small) and it doesn't hurt to incude it.

[pilotchute]

In answer to one poster who claimed the job couldn't have been that good if no one wanted to come to FNQ for a first gig I beg to differ. We paid the award which I know is pretty poor but what more do you want for a first gig? We knew as soon as you got any decent multi out of us you were off anyway!

The boss knew if he paid more he could keep people longer but his thinking was to spread the love so to speak. Pay a bit less but get more people the magic 500 hours multi seemed to work well for everyone.

[Checkboard]

If you paid the award, then yours is the first story I have heard in my 25 years in the industry where a company couldn't find a pilot to fill an award paid flying position.

[AileronsNeutral]

I've been flying in the UK my whole career to date, 3 years as an instructor and then 10 in 2 major airlines flying heavy jets. 10 years ago as I was getting check on a PA31 for a command position I got a phone call from a major charter airline asking if I'd like to fly the 757 instead. Now I've got nearly 7000 hours total, 1600 Command, 1300 PICus and 4000 Co-pilot. My PICus time is exactly that - logged where I've not had a decision overruled by the PIC, checked the load sheet, ordered the fuel, started the engines and even taxied thanks to dual tillers. Trouble is I've only got 40 odd hours multi-pic, any tips on how to present my resume to a prospective Australian employer?

[Mach E Avelli]

The way you have described it is just fine, and with some slight rewording would be the way to present yourself. Obviously the 1600 command is single engine, so that needs to be made clear.
With only 40 hours 'real' multi command (on light twins presumably?) some employers may have a problem unless they can think a bit out of the square and maybe make a special case.
The fact that you hold an ATPL means you are legal to fly transport category aircraft in command. Not that you are likely to get a DEC anyway, but you should be a candidate for relatively quick promotion with that experience.
Good luck!

[Checkboard]

Personally for an Australian employer I would present it as 5300 Co-pilot - as that represents exactly what it is. If your pride really insists you could include (1300 logged as ICUS) after it, but it just confuses the issue.

[AileronsNeutral]

Cheers guys, concerned that maybe I should have stuck with the PA31 after all as all the jobs I see on the AFAP site seem to need hundreds of multi-PIC hours!

[fiftyeight]

Fresh CPL and have no other experience yet, would this be an acceptable way of listing my limited experience?

FLYING EXPERIENCE

Total Hours: 145
PIC: 70
Type: C172, C182


Assuming the details below are not really that relevant?
IF: 5
Sim: 6
Night: 9
Night PIC:5

Thanks

[Horatio Leafblower]

How the hell do you hold a CPL with 145 hours total? :confused:

[fiftyeight]

You can include up to 10h hours sim for the 150h. I thought it was mentioned above somewhere not to include it?

[bagurxvi]

Quite frankly, many pilots don't know how to write a pilot resume (http://pilotwork.net/pilotresume/).

At the end they write a resume that is similar to a normal resume.

[MikeTangoEcho]

"KEEP IT SIMPLE, KEEP IT STUPID (K-I-S-S- rule)!"

I won't take resume advice from a website that can't even get this rule right.. :ugh:

[A Squared]

My PICus time is exactly that - logged where I've not had a decision overruled by the PIC, checked the load sheet, ordered the fuel, started the engines and even taxied thanks to dual tillers.

Not familiar with the Acronym "PICUS" but co-pilot time spent with a captain who isn't micro-managing you is just that: Co-pilot time.

It's an either/or situation; Either you *are* the PIC, or you are not. If you are not the PIC, trying to spin it so that you're claiming to be almost the PIC will play poorly with a lot of people.