Virgin confirm 23 Boeing 737-8 max aircraft ordered

[fmcinop]

JB has confirmed the order of 23 Boeing 737-8 max aircraft.

I guess this means there will be no switch to Airbus in the near future or replacement of the 737 fleet as has been predicted so many times.

[Warped Wings]

Plus more wide-bodies to come?

Virgin Australia defers Boeing 737 deliveries - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/virgin-australia-defers-boeing-737-deliveries-2012-07-04-234853742)

[KRUSTY 34]

So, are we talking significant expansion, moderate expansion, or simply fleet replacement?

[Sand dune Sam]

Heard somewhere today that Virgin carried more domestic pax than Qantas for the 12 months ending in May..1.42 million compared to QF 1.37 million...Looks like JQ finally become the parent company...:{

Krusty, may be time for you to throw in another application..this time agree to pay the endorsement cost.:ok:

[dr dre]

Heard somewhere today that Virgin carried more domestic pax than Qantas for the 12 months ending in May

VA's numbers would include it's ATR and E-Jet's whereas Qantas excludes QLink when reporting domestic pax figures I believe?

[apacau]

I believe the ATR flying is reported separately, just like QFlink, so it is a like for like comparison. Someone may correct me though.

[piston broke again]

Why wouldn't it include ejets? That's like saying Qantas figures include 737's and 767s! Can't help you with the ATR's tho.

[moa999]

was not like for like


Qantas, including its regional domestic airline QantasLink, carried 20.25 million passengers over that period" the airline said in a press release issued this morning, while "Virgin Australia (including its regional domestic flying) carried 15.53 million passengers.

In addition to the 20.25 million domestic Qantas flyers, the Qantas Group's low fares airline Jetstar carried 9.84 million passengers. More Australians continue to fly with Qantas than with any other domestic airline.
from ausbt.com.au

[2p!ssed2drive]

Back to the thread topic?

[EW73]

For me...thank goodness there will remain an avenue to fly Boeing within the domestic scene in Australia!
I felt a great sense of relief that DJ will remain a Boeing flyer, with the possible exception of the Perth legs (which I fly every now and then!), when I look elsewhere for a Boeing on that route.

I have no faith in the Airbus brand at all, and avoid them whenever I can!

Great stuff DJ

[donpizmeov]

EW these Airbuses are quite modern and I can fully understand why some are left behind and prefer the more wood and fabric design of the Boeing.
If only we could get the Electra back. But with the P3s dash 14 powering it of course. Then we would be talking!!!

The Don

[Captain Dart]

EW, at the risk of yet another A vs B argument, I've been flying various models of Airbus since 1995 and have nothing but admiration for Airbus products (and importantly, so do the accountants). This includes ultra long haul and operations in Asian monsoon conditions. I also flew two Boeing types for a decade previously.

With respect, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[Capn Bloggs]

Asian monsoon conditions
What about Atlantic monsoons? :}

[Jabawocky]

ohhhhh Mr Bloggs :}:ok:

Go the Boeing VA

Or I might have to order IO540's 3 at a time!

[404 Titan]

Capn Bloggs

As has been stated today by the French investigators, the cause the AF accident was pilot error. The fact AF hadn’t at the time upgraded the pitot’s is irrelevant as no aircraft is certified to fly through areas of large super cool water droplets.

I would also like to point out that about five years ago we had a B777 and an A330 on the same day both have a triple ADR failure.

[Capn Bloggs]

As has been stated today by the French investigators, the cause the AF accident was pilot error.
Unbelievable.

[BPA]

Reading the official press release, it would appear an announcement for further A330's is not far away.

Also by not going with the A320/A319 for domestic ops, it leaves the door open for an order of the C-series to replace the Ejet's in the 2015-2017 time frame.

[404 Titan]

Capn Bloggs

Why is it unbelievable? While I will accept that the situation would have been potentially very confusing with the loss of all air-data information and both stall and over speed warning going off simultaneously, the A330 is like any other aeroplane, Power + Attitude = Performance. The FO’s side stick also rarely left the full aft position with TOGA thrust until impact with the ocean.

[HF3000]

The FO’s side stick also rarely left the full aft position with TOGA thrust until impact with the ocean.

... and as a direct result of AIRBUS design principles, nobody else in the cockpit was aware of that little piece of information... :rolleyes:

[404 Titan]

HF3000

You don’t need to have a control yoke in your hands to know what the other pilot it doing. A simple glance at the other pilot side stick will tell you what they are doing. As for this case, a consistently very high nose attitude and TOGA thrust is major indication of the state of the aircraft that was incredibly missed. If you had 25 degrees + nose up attitude, TOGA thrust and a rate of decent of 10000 ft/min, what would you think the state of the aircraft was? The unfortunate reality is no one on the flight deck realised that the aircraft was in a stalled state until it was too late. This raises serious issues regarding training which needs to be investigated and fixed by regulators because pilot training has, because of cost pressures, been cut to the bone by airline management and this is the end result of it.

[BPA]

Isn't this thread about Virgin ordering the B737 Max?

[EW73]

Yep....the flight deck design and operating philosophy of the Airbus contributed to the loss of the AF447 airplane, so I continue to stand by my original comments.
Even with that rather silly following comment....

I'm well aware of the differences, that's why!

I'm certainly not alone...

[The Bunglerat]

Sorry for continuing with thread drift, but to EW & others, I'm astonished at the ignorance & bias demonstrated towards the Airbus product. I'm currently flying the A330 after a few years on the 737, & it's a great aeroplane. Have you personally had a bad experience on one that has left you so shaken & prejudiced against them? Because I've found that there are plenty of armchair critics out there who love to criticise the aeroplane - when they've never flown one, & don't understand them in the first place. :ugh:

[43Inches]

The thread is about Virgin selecting the 737 Max, so it stands to reason they decided that over the only other option the A320 neo.

EW73s comments are flawed by the statistical and historical data on the 737 vs A320 argument. The A320 runs at a slightly lower hull loss rate than the 737Ng series and if the -500 series is included (the A320 was introduced against the -300 to -500 model) the 737 moves further behind.

Since 2005 both types have had about the same number of fatal events and numerous hull losses. Both types have suffered from a great number of runway overuns and CFITs in poor weather. In this time 2 possibly 3 737Ng were lost in situations where the main conclusion is crew misshandling/loss of awareness of aircraft state, 1 A320 was lost for similar reason. It could be argued better flight deck design could have improved the crews performance in these scenarios, or better training would have acheived the same. All the other accidents had little to do with cockpit interface/ease of use or aircraft type and more poor crew decisions to land in storms, snow or do things way outside of the rules and normal procedures.

The old arguments of Airbus vs Boeing safety died years ago in a real sense, both provide a viable safe product. Choose the one that does the job for the budget and market.

[ozbiggles]

If this thread drifts anymore they will be calling in the RAN to save it...and they are a little busy at the moment.
Haven't they deferred a few deliveries too? I would have thought that was more news worthy than deliveries planned for 7 years from now...

[happy clapper]

After todays great news from Virgin,News from QF is that the boss will have a good hard Tink over the weekend and try and come back with a plan on monday.
To Be sure

[HF3000]

Oh, no, not another major announcement... after new uniforms and two new letters on the end of the slogan I don't think the sharemarket could cope!

[Falling Leaf]

The manufacturer plans no modification in the flight deck as it wants to maintain commonality with the 737 Next Generation family.

Another lost opportunity - no doubt thanks again to Southwest being the launch customer.

[SilverSleuth]

Not changing the flight deck is just one example of why boeing has lost so much ground to airbus. A new jet coming out in 2020 with what is essentially a 1970 flight deck technology is ridiculous. It should be advanced as the bloody 787. Unbelievable Boeing !

[ozbiggles]

Like spoilt little children crying over toys isn't it. hope these kiddies don't play with heavy machinery!
I sense a mod has taken the kiddies toys away now and sent them to their room!

[SRM]

Some operaters have requested Boeing to keep the cockpit the same as the NG.

Why change something that works, I for one, do not have a problem with that.

[Capn Bloggs]

Why change something that works, I for one, do not have a problem with that.
The DC 3 cockpit worked, too!

[pakeha-boy]

EW QUOTE......I have no faith in the Airbus brand at all, and avoid them whenever I can!

AS with Capt Dart...have a couple of boeing types myself.....been on the Bus series for the last 18 yrs.....actually like both brands...just a matter of your "adaptive" abilities.........

............is this "no-faith"attitude based on experience or the 10-15 tinnies pounded as quickly as possible..........

[unseen]

EW
...........is this "no-faith"attitude based on experience or the 10-15 tinnies pounded as quickly as possible..........

Generally it is the latter....

[unseen]

Not changing the flight deck is just one example of why boeing has lost so much ground to airbus. A new jet coming out in 2020 with what is essentially a 1970 flight deck technology is ridiculous. It should be advanced as the bloody 787. Unbelievable Boeing !

What is wrong with the flightdeck of the 737NG?

How would a major change that makes it a separate type rating male it safer or more efficient at the job it does most of the time - high frequency shorthaul ops.

It is simple and it works well. I have never found it lacking, once I shoehorn myself into the seat that is!

Serious question.

[RATpin]

For what it's worth, it's the only commercial Jet still in manufacture that can be landed with a complete loss of hydraulics. Don't know about former Soviet era aircraft.

[SW3]

If it's not Boeing I'm not going! The 737 is the last of the 'real' airliners where you can still take physical control without a computer in between.
Similar argument to Ford and Holden, we all have a preference for our own reasons but both sides are undoubtedly good.
Parts commonality, endorsement costs all come into play. Introducing an entirely new type (IE replacing B737s with A320s) would be a massive undertaking! New manuals, endorsements, sims etc.
Yeah the old overhead panel on the 73 is archaic but it works, is simple and gives us something to do. After all we're paid to push buttons apparently! She's like the bigger version of a Metro, solid, functional and makes money.
As for a previous post, again, why would the E-Jets be not counted in the stats??

[MonsterC01]

"What is wrong with the flight deck of the 737NG?"

Seriously unseen. You fly one and you have to ask this question!!!

I can only assume from your post that the 737 is the first and only jet you've flown. Don't get me wrong I like the 737. It's very good at doing what it's designed to do. But it's flight deck is an insult to logic, technology, efficiency, ergonomics and common sense.

For one thing there is no reason for all the systems on the overhead panel to be manual. NASA landed a man on the moon in the 60's and Boeing can't design system logic to automatically control cabin pressurization, fuel balancing, air system configuration and cabin zone temperature control. And don't even get me started on not having a parallel electrical system! WTF!

There's no synoptic displays for systems, even thou the lower DU sits there blank for the entire flight. And some genius decided that if the annunciator light for a system was anywhere near being in the pilots scope of vision, then there was no need to have it activate the "six packs" (glare shield annunciator panel for those that don't speak boeing) as the pilots should see it! really!!!! Not that the "six packs" are much better. They've been installed by the finest low wage Mexican's Boeing could employ, and work about as consistently as James Packer exercises.

There's no secondary flight plan function in the FMC, or alternate flight planning fuction. Because no one has ever needed to know their PNR or alternate requirements before. And I just love having to re enter a cruising level every time I level off because the box is to stupid to realise that's what I've done. Profile managment by the FCC is pretty awesome too. Follow that at your peril.

Your right about one thing thou unseen, It is simple.

If you want to see how a real flight deck should look and you ever have the opportunity strap yourself into an MD-11, I highly recommend it. It's almost like someone took the best aspects of Boeing and Airbus and stuck them together into one super sexy awesome 3 holer machine. The automation and system integration of Airbus, with the conventional control system and pilot awareness/logic of Boeing. And it was designed in the early eighties. McDonald Douglas sure knew how to build a plane, so of course they had to be the aircraft manufacturer to go out of business. Great product, lousy management. Now where have I seen that before!

[virginexcess]

I take it you haven't flown a Tripler then?

All the stuff you highlighted is there because airlines want it that way, no doubt to keep initial costs down.

Boeing are well capable of designing all the aspects you pointed out and have done just that and more.

The only reason airbus have a more automated flight deck is that they came to the party late and had newer technology at their disposal.

[unseen]

I can only assume from your post that the 737 is the first and only jet you've flown.


It is the smallest jet I have flown, from both Airbus and Boeing.


Don't get me wrong I like the 737. It's very good at doing what it's designed to do.


Exactly my point.



But it's flight deck is an insult to logic, technology, efficiency, ergonomics and common sense.


So what? It does the job very well and very efficiently.


If you want to see how a real flight deck should look and you ever have the opportunity strap yourself into an MD-11, I highly recommend it. It's almost like someone took the best aspects of Boeing and Airbus and stuck them together into one super sexy awesome 3 holer machine. The automation and system integration of Airbus, with the conventional control system and pilot awareness/logic of Boeing. And it was designed in the early eighties. McDonald Douglas sure knew how to build a plane, so of course they had to be the aircraft manufacturer to go out of business. Great product, lousy management. Now where have I seen that before!

That must be why we see so many of them in operation around the traps. I have not flown the MD11 but have heard lots of people talk about its "interesting" handling in the flare and landing.

I know the 73's flightdeck is not pretty, but it works, it is safe, and it does the job very well.

In short haul, high frequency ops, simple beats complicated.

Don't confuse awesome displays and complicated systems with its ability at doing the job at hand, that's all I am saying!

[SRM]

Yer Yer we have all flown different types and have our favorites.

I was only quoting what came from Boeing and that is,Operators have requested to keep the cockpit the same.

I guess between EW and myself we would have about 80 years of operational experience on different types of aircraft including the Lockheed Electra, B727, B747 and B767.

[neville_nobody]

It is simple and it works well. I have never found it lacking, once I shoehorn myself into the seat that is! Serious question.

The 737 is not 'simple' by any stretch of the imagination, from a system design and ergonomic position the thing is a nightmare. (the fact you can inadvertently pull the gear up on the ground says it all really)

Given that it was built post 747-400 it would be akin to buying a nice new commodore and sticking a 1980's VL interior and dash in it.

Yeah it is reliable, has high utility, very flexible, awesome range and performance but the cockpit is a horse's arse.

The 777 or the 744 cockpits are what the 737NG SHOULD and COULD have been.

How many times do you need to creak you neck over and back to check stuff? What affect does that have on ones body over 10000 hours+?

Not to mention the windows and noise.....

In the 1970's they weren't building aircraft with designs from the 1940's now were they........................

[BPA]

If they want to keep the same flight deck ie overhead panel, then just automate everything behind the scenes, such APU automatically connected to the busses at engine shutdown and vis versa when engines are started. Same goes for the packs during engine start.

Make use of the 5th screen and add the system pages and perhaps an electronic checklist. With these changes at least the flight deck operation would be late 20th century rather than mid 20th century.

The overhead panel has only had minor changes since the 707 and 727 appeared, so when you think about when the Max is half way through it's service life the basic design of the overhead panel would be 100 years old!

[MonsterC01]

"That must be why we see so many of them in operation around the traps. I have not flown the MD11 but have heard lots of people talk about its "interesting" handling in the flare and landing.

I know the 73's flight deck is not pretty, but it works, it is safe, and it does the job very well."

I'm sorry unseen, my mistake. I didn't realize when you started a post about the 737 flight deck what we were in fact talking about was the flare and landing characteristics of different aircraft. I apologize, I have this annoying habit of reading what people have actually written, instead of doing what I should of been doing all along. Which is reading their minds.

I have to say in response to your reply that some of the smoothest landings I've ever done were in the MD-11. And I can't recall any bad ones either. Always found it to be a rather effortless aircraft to control (as long as you fly above Vmca). A tail mounted engine to counteract pitch changes as a result of thrust changes, full flight auto throttle and LSAS (Longitudinal Stability Augmentation System) always made for a nice stable approach, unlike the 737 on a gusty day.

And the only reason you don't see 100's of them flying around today is because Boeing killed it of when they bought McDonald Douglas. And the reason, it was to much competition for the 777 (MD-11 didn't have the ETOPS issues the 777 did back then). Ask any operator of the MD-11 if they would of liked more of them and they'll all say yes (as a freighter it's 9% more efficient per kg/mile than the 747-400). The only reason the original production version didn't reach it's full potential was MD ran out of money as a result of some pretty poor management. As a result they had to stick the DC-10 wing and rudder on the MD-11 (hence the Vmca rudder authority issues). Had they been around to make a next generation MD-11 it would of been an absolute cracker of an aircraft I have no doubt.

As for the 737 flight deck being safe. Well it's all a question of degrees really isn't it. You can argue over automation removes the pilot from the information loop, just as you can argue a lack of automation on the flight deck distracts a pilot form their core function, flying the dam plane! I've always felt the later to be true of the 737, and I fear Boeing has let slip another opportunity to correct this with the new 737 max. sure it's going to be a great plane, new leap engines, new tail cone, wing spar box and fancy new wing fences. But it's flight deck is not in keeping with what we know to be best practice.

A good example is single engine operations. A hand full at the best of times, but add to this the additional concern of having to remember to manually balance the fuel every 10 minutes or so. And if you don't remember to do this then the only indication you get on the flight deck to alert you to the imbalance is that a tiny amber IMBAL which appears below the low fuel tank indication, and that tanks digits turn amber. No audible warning, no master caution, no illumination of the six packs. Very easy to miss when your attention is on other matters.

Smart flight decks remove these secondary house keeping functions from the pilots and reduce their work load so that they can focus on their core function. Flying the dam plane. To my mind the 737 doesn't do this. So is it safe, yeah safe enough. But the question should be is it as safe and as functional as it could be? And the answer has to be no way!

As for companies asking Boeing to keep the flight deck unchanged so that the rating remains the same, I'm pretty sure that's BS. In the interview the Boeing head of program gave to Australian Aviation a few months back he stated that the flight deck would remain unchanged as they didn't want to risk the delivery schedule slipping like it did with the 787. And that they needed to get it off the production line as quick as possible to offset the ground they had lost to the A320 NEO in terms of orders on the books, and intended delivery dates.

I personally feel Boeing would of been better off putting in the extra money and time and doing a complete redesign of the aircraft. It's clear the 737 airframe as it is now has reached the end of its life span. They can't put bigger engines on it after the max without a complete redesign, where as the A320 can. And the 737 shares no commonality with any other current Boeing models, and Airbus does.

Time will tell who's got it right.

[Capt_SNAFU]

The NG is a great jet and fun to fly. Not as good to land as the 300-400 series but fun none the less. It has great technology (RNP-AR, GLS etc HGS) yet the systems display (not the systems themselves) are rubbish. It should have EICAS (it is has the ability) it should have a better a more user friendly overhead panel. It should basically be a scaled down version of the 777. How long would a differences course last. (We aren't talking going from classic to 777 style here, NG to 777 style.)

I am led to believe that SW originally demanded that the overhead panel reflect the classic as the FAA said they would need a type course instead of differences course. They really should move it forward from an ergonomic perspective. The six pack is a joke to be honest. When you have flown something else (EICAS/ECAM) you can see the silliness of it. It works but it is far from a ideal system. Hands up who has struggled to work out what exact checklist you need to call for (not the system but the exact checklist heading) at some stage on the 737. I know I have. Whereas EICAS/ECAM free up that brain space and allow you to get the problem solving underway more quickly.

I loved flying it but it is in need of a upgrade. That is not to say Virgin shouldn't buy it. Good decision in my opinion.

[kimir]

Agree with the above, love flying the 73. Disappointed that boeing don't want to change the flight deck. Even if they kept the 6 pack for commonality and still utilised the space on the upper DU for the eicas, lower DU for systems pages (schematics), that would be an improvement. They could automate things like Anti ice. Have an option for those operators who wish to use a push button overhead panel, more 777 style. I would have thought Boeing would have learnt from past mistakes re SW & the NG. Companies don't buy aeroplanes for pilots to like, whatever will work for them best as far as bottom line goes. Having said all that I still look forward to flying it.

[Buckshot]

Southwest still operate all aircraft with EHSI/EADI config (even the NG's)

Not really ones to sign up for the latest technology :ugh:

Photos: Boeing 737-7H4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Southwest-Airlines/Boeing-737-7H4/1093789/M/&sid=718b4167516a6a7743b7647e685c063c)

[Falling Leaf]

Love the jotting pad lying on top of the 6th screen (which is turned off) - says it all really!:yuk:

[Capt_SNAFU]

It is sad isn't it. :{ A tragedy to use good displays in this fashion. I remember seeing a similar photo years ago. It may have been a transitional thing as there are more recent photo's showing better use of the displays.

[kimir]

Falling leaf, don't you mean 6th screen