Flying school - grubby little trick

[spinex]

And we wonder why people don't bother to take up flying.:yuk:

Had a story told to me yesterday about a Brissie based flying school and the gift of a TIF. As told; worthy girlfriend purchases a gift certificate for a TIF. Great excitement and a flight is duly booked. School calls on the appointed day, "uh sorry, we don't have an instructor available, will have to reschedule". New date duly made, however as happens in this game, the wx intervenes and the flight is once again postponed.

Time passes and third attempt made to schedule said TIF. Response from school, "uh sorry, that certificate has now expired, however we're happy to take more of your money and try again":eek:

:D to the PPL holder who immediately jumped in and offered a scenic around the islands by way of compensation.

Admittedly I haven't seen the certificate and taken stat decs from the dramatis personae, but there is a distinct wiff of offal in the breeze.

Anyone else heard of similar underhand dealings?

[Tiger 77]

Time passes and third attempt made to schedule said TIF.

How much time? 2 weeks? 10 years? Most gift certificates have expiry dates. If the customer waited that long and let it expire then they can't blame anyone but themselves.

Tiger.

[Trojan1981]

Anyone with an ounce of business sense would extend the gift certificate for the specified period from the date the young bloke last attempted to use it.
After all, they are a customer gained (even if only for one flight); you'd have to be an idiot to throw that away.

[Wally Mk2]

I agree 'Trojan' I believe the said Co are fools for letting even a slight chance that someone having a TIF might continue on.I mean sheeeez it's not as if we are talking about a thousands of $$$ here!:ugh:

Some years ago now I gave a TIF cert to a GF's son whom had always showed an interest in flying but was not confident in pretty much anything he did. I thought this might be a way to at least build some confidence in him & even mentioned this to the flying school so they had a heads up that he might be as never as a cat on a hot tin roof. He never went thru with it, just couldn't manage the courage which is fair enuf his decision but the crux of the story was when I mentioned that he didn't want to go thru with it a few months latter& asked whether I might extend the TIF to another person whom I believed might even take up flying they said no that was not an option.
Well some time latter that same guy did start learning to fly but not at the said Co. Carma I reckon !


Wmk2

[quinnyfly]

One would naturaly think in the current economic environment any business would pull out all the stops to gain new customers, clientele and even prospective student pilots!

Seems many companies are not so interested in honoring an ounce of loyalty these days, rather their focus is about first obtaining your hard earned cash for which the result is all promise and no delivery.

Just as bad is this BS about briefing time and charging for it!!! Sure we need briefings, but much of it can be done in the ACFT. Startup and taxi is another issue worthy of attention, when you work out the hours required for many people from scratch to even GFPT, the time spent on the ground almost equals a third or more compared to that in the air!!!

[spinex]

"How much time? 2 weeks? 10 years? Most gift certificates have expiry dates. If the customer waited that long and let it expire then they can't blame anyone but themselves.

Tiger. "

A couple of months I was told - bearing in mind that school had dicked him around on first occasion, 2nd time around the weather stopped play. I'm seeing some of those involved tomorrow and will be getting full details. I'm inclined to suggest that a call to Fair Trade or whatever they call themselves these days may be in order.

[flying-spike]

If this true this is a prime opportunity for any flying school in the same area to offer to honour the certificate and at least partially redeem the industry. Come on guys, who is up for it?

[baron_beeza]

Having read this I have to take the side of the school or club.

We are hearing a one-sided, 2nd hand version of events. I am sure there will be more to it than we have been reading.

I am equally sure any school would be keen to portray the 'right' image and chase the business. That is their game, their bread and butter.

So we have an expired certificate and the school supposedly refusing to honour it after expiry date...
Well maybe, who knows ?

Sounds like half a story to me.. at this stage at least.

[RENURPP]

If it was paid for by credit crd, contact the bank and dispute the amount as the product was never received.
Then it's up o the merchant to chase ou for the money. They won't.

[Flying Binghi]

.


Hmmm... i'm with baron_beeza on this. A TIF (Trail Instructional Flight) is the bait that gets the punters in the door. Considering the claim the TIF is already been paid for, seems strange it aint been honored. Suspect more to it...




.

[LewC]

What RENURPP said first up and if that doesn't work try the Queensland Office of Fair Trading,they have very sharp teeth.

[b_sta]

That school must really dislike the prospect of tens of thousands of dollars in additional revenue.

[VH-XXX]

In defence of the school, many people ring up with 1 day to go for their flight which makes it hard. They also come in 2 years later hoping that it is still valid.


Gift certificates are an interesting beast too.

I knew of a company that once did Joy Flights and sold most of their tickets on-line or over the phone. At least 40% of the gift certificates if not more were never redeemed.

You could park an un-airworthy TigerMoth or similar next to a road, advertise Joy Flights (or Adventure flights or whatever), offer full refunds to those that try to book and over 40% of your purchasers will never show.

A little deceptive, but food for thought!

[Flying Binghi]

un-airworthy TigerMoth

I thought all TigerMoths were un-airworthy. Its just the owners sheer willpower that keeps them in the air...:)





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[Aimpoint]

North or south of the river? I guess neither would really surprise me...

[stevep64]

Just playing devils advocate here, but two months is at least 8 weekends when the certificate could have been redeemed. Did the holder of the certificate say, "How about next weekend then?", or "how about I hang around and see if the weather improves?". That's the kind of thing a flying school would see as a prospective student. Not someone that rings up a few weeks later on the off chance that they might get to go flying.
Considering how many flying schools have closed down in the past few years, the ones that are left are maybe not that desperate for students, I don't know. If you pay for a flight and don't use it, well that's a bonus for the flying school.

That school must really dislike the prospect of tens of thousands of dollars in additional revenue.
Do you really believe a flying school is going to make thousands from someone getting their PPL there? If that was the case, there'd be a lot more flying schools around.

Having bought gift vouchers for people myself, I suspect aviation is no different to any other industry in as far as, most people don't redeem the vouchers. It's easy money for the companies selling the vouchers. And every voucher has its terms and conditions on it. And everyone reads them don't they :p

[Old Fella]

Regardless of whether or not it is for a T.I.F. or any other "Gift", I see no justification for having an expiry date for such vouchers. It is pretty simple to word them in a way which clearly states "This voucher may be used toward the cost of a T.I.F." or whatever it relates to. Having an expiry date is shonky at best. Pre-Paid telephone cards are the same. Why should they have an expiry date when they will run out when the credit is exhausted.

Send any prospective students to Taree, we will take care of them in a friendly uncluttered environment.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Old fella,

you're pretty brave if you think having an untold number of gift vouchers out there is good. Sounds more like a liability to me.

Our gift vouchers all have a 12-month expiry. If the prospect is keen, they will use it within 2 months.

Otherwise, it is a novelty gift with a <10% chance of turning into a student.

If someone comes to me with a gift certificate up to 2 years old, yeah we'll usually honour it but then, we're great guys and country flying instructors like you. :ok:

That school must really dislike the prospect of tens of thousands of dollars in additional revenue.

Assuming for a minute that a school makes $100 profit per hour of flight training, that's $4000 profit per PPL that goes through to completion.

I would be surprised if many flying schools are making profits like that, I know we certainly aren't! :ouch:

[poteroo]

Agree with you HL, except I'd reckon on a nett profit of $30-40/hr at best..... depends on your accounting method.

Yes, gift certificate flights have a very poor conversion to a student pilot - <10% I'd say.

happy days,

[Clare Prop]

Some light reading on gift vouchers.

http://eprints.usq.edu.au/6330/5/Jones_9_QUTLJJ_213_AV.pdf

[NIK320]

Gift vouchers for TIF's are usually sold as an hour of flight time rather than a dollar value. If they don't expire and some chap waits 5 years to use it, it will likely cost to company more than what was paid to make the flight.
Given they have waited so long to use it there is not a high likelihood they will return for further training anyway.

In the instance that started this thread we wouldn't enforce the expiration date that strictly.

this is a prime opportunity for any flying school in the same area to offer to honour the certificate and at least partially redeem the industry.
Flying-spike where do you work?? I want to come get $300 worth for free if that's how you operate.

[cwatters]

Gift certificates are usually bad value unless they come direct from the club/school.

[b_sta]

Assuming for a minute that a school makes $100 profit per hour of flight training, that's $4000 profit per PPL that goes through to completion.

I would be surprised if many flying schools are making profits like that, I know we certainly aren't!

Precisely the reason why I used the word revenue rather than profit.

Aware the profits are not necessarily huge, however assumedly there are still numerous fixed overheads that can only be covered by additional cash flow, and the best way to achieve that is to not turn away potential customers :ok:

[Tiger35]

Back in the mid 70's the Whittlesea Flying School conducted a promotion at Northland Shopping Centre giving away TIF type gift vouchers with a purchase within the centre. Their aim was to increase club membership and train more pilots.

Two mates and I, all keen and opportunistic Air Training Corp cadets, purchased enough of the needed product, probably model aircraft from Toyworld, to be rewarded with several TIF vouchers.

When we approached the flying school with the number of vouchers we had they were taken aback a little but never once tried to wiggle out of their committment.

The three of us enjoyed a tour of Port Philip Bay and the area around Whittlesea with landings at a couple of airfields for us to swap seats and take turns up front. The flight was well over two hours and was sensational and inspirational.

Unfortunately for the flying school none of us did any flying training with them, due to other opportunities and career paths back then. Whilst the flying school did not gain any benefit from our endeavours, they engendered a large degree of respect from us and a hell of a lot of enthusiasm for flying. All three of us have enjoyed long careers in the aviation industry.

Whenever I hear about TIF gift vouchers I wonder why a flying club would take the risk for the odd chance of gaining a member or student.

[Animalclub]

Wasn't it Gift Vouchers (frequent flyer points) without an expiry date that sent Pan Am to the wall?

[VH-XXX]

I understand that many schools particularly in the GA world don't charge for the instructor on a TIF and conducting tif's is highly competitive because if you snare the student, you get them for the entire PPL journey.

[Horatio Leafblower]

if you snare the student, you get them for the entire PPL journey.

Interesting point - it is precisely because

...many schools particularly in the GA world don't charge for the instructor on a TIF...

...that the job always gets thrown to a Grade 3, possibly the person in the school least equipped to ensure a great experience and do an effective soft-sell. :ugh:

As a young fella I know I scared off more than one prospective student :*

Over the years at least two of those have come to my school (without recognising me as the callow yoof I once was), had a great TIF, and said "Last time I flew was in 199x at [school]...it was awful - that guy was a ********!" :eek::uhoh::ouch::oh:

[Worrals in the wilds]

Ouch. :ouch::}
I had a wonderful TIF (which I paid for) and immediately signed up for lessons. :ok:
Time passes and third attempt made to schedule said TIF. Response from school, "uh sorry, that certificate has now expired, however we're happy to take more of your money and try again"http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gifIf a company has an expiry date policy, it should be clearly marked on the voucher and explained to the customer. Surely the average school isn't selling five hundred of these a day?:confused: There should be enough time to explain the house policy. Legalities aside, that's just good customer service.

I was involved with a non aviation business that regularly offered discount and gift vouchers; the terms were clearly printed on the voucher and our staff made every customer aware of them.
We never had any complaints.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

The two clubs i have been around who offer any kind of trail flight certs usually work pretty hard to make sure they have the staff to honour the date. They are relistic with their bookings, actually check the long range forecast and even if the punter shows up in the middle of a busy training they will give them priority (not many punters understand for every hour in the air you spend at least 2-3 waiting on the ground! drinking instant coffee), i have seen a punter turned away for a senic in the marlborough sounds on a nice sunny day, because the wind out there would have meant a right kicking, they could have gone but probably would have confirmed for all pax that light aircraft a dangerous death traps that should be avoided at all costs

I have also had 1 or 2 gift certs that people have bought me for my birthday (luv u mum), ok not trial flights but still a cert with an expiry date.
A cert expired... (found it in the back of the log book) ok i'm not a walk in, and i'm a regular flying member... but the club happliy extended the cert to THAT flight.

I know there are some shifty operations out there but its not all of em!

[Old Fella]

HL, you did not read my post very well it seems. I suggested it is not difficult to put a Dollar value on a gift voucher which means that it will only ever be worth the initial value. Increased costs will not be a problem for the issuer. The morality of selling Gift Certificates with expiry dates, especially in the expectation that many will not be redeemed, seems questionable to me. As for encouraging prospective pilot trainees I think most people would only buy such a T.I.F. Voucher for someone they thought would use it.

[lethalw]

"Just as bad is this BS about briefing time and charging for it!!! Sure we need briefings, but much of it can be done in the ACFT."

Ok so when someone goes to court, and they want a little pre-courtroom assistance from a lawyer, you expect him to donate his time like you do an instructor.....??

A diligent student, with an enthusiastic instructor, should only need a 30 minute brief prior to departure.... Money well spent to understand completely what is going to be taught in the air.

Considering that a lesson block of two hours only involves 1 hour flying, then a school would be stupid not to try and recoup some of the time they are paying for....

Correct me if I've misinterpreted your statement here.....

[YPJT]

understand that many schools particularly in the GA world don't charge for the instructor on a TIF I sincerely hope that that doesn't translate into that they wouldn't pay the instructor.

[Checkboard]

The morality of selling Gift Certificates with expiry dates, especially in the expectation that many will not be redeemed, seems questionable to me.
As long as the agreement is clear, I don't see a problem. :confused:

From a book keeping point of view, the profit is entered as it is paid, and the liability the voucher represents is entered as a debt to the business to balance it (otherwise you would overstate your profit for that year). That liability needs to be removed from the books eventually - otherwise over ten years or so you would pile up thousands in unused vouchers on the debit side of the register! To put an expiry date on the voucher allows you to rule out the liability after a reasonable time period.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Checkboard,

My point exactly - thank you.

Every Gift voucher for every retail outlet I have ever seen has an expiry date, and for the reason outlined above.

Old Fella, do you own the business or are you at the Club? A business owner would have a different view to the one you espouse.

[Old Fella]

HL, I am a Club Member and part of the Board. To me, it matters not what my association is with the "business" I simply do not believe that a "Gift Certificate" should be sold with an expiry date, provided it is for a Dollar value. If it were simply for a 1 hour flight, or a T.I.F., that is a different matter and I would have no issue there. Notwithstanding, the question in the original post of this thread would indicate that the Club concerned initially caused the delay in use of the voucher and therefore had a duty to honour it when requested at a later date.

From what you say you believe that if I owned the business I would think differently. As for every Gift Voucher for every retail outlet having an expiry date, that is incorrect. I recently came upon a Bunnings Gift Card given to me for Christmas 2010. It had no expiry date, nor should it have in my opinion, and it was accepted without question within the last week.

[djpil]

Exactly Old Fella.
I buy gift cards as presents and walk away without buying if it has an expiry date. If the bean counters don't want to keep the liability on the books the solution is simple - refund the money - they should be happy with that, after all, the interest on the funds is all profit.

[flying-spike]

"Flying-spike where do you work?? I want to come get $300 worth for free if that's how you operate."
I get paid for advice so here is your $300 worth:

Some things you do in business give you no immediate, tangible return apart from enhancement of the business's reputation and, in doing so lead to future custom (at a profit) that would otherwise not have occurred. This is because the recipient of the free service or product see the provider as a fair trader and worthy of their trust and business. This is called "Good Will" and is even measured and quantified when assessing the assets of a business.
It isn't a new practice in aviation either, "barnstormers" of old used to give away the odd free ride to make the most of the "free" advertising when the recipient returned to earth and spread the word amongst the crowd.