Overseas Aircraft Purchase

[Aztec Driver]

I’m currently doing some research about purchasing an aircraft from overseas and then importing it into Australia and would like to get peoples feedback about their experience, good or bad, that they have had throughout the whole process.

Any tips and advice about what should have been done, what actual was done, would be gratefully received.

If any ferry pilots have any stories about the flight back and the routes flown and can give some hints and tips from their prospective this will also be gratefully received.

Any information that can be provided would be very gratefully received.

Aztec Driver

[dhavillandpilot]

Enjoy the experience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


USA


If in the US it is fairly straight forward and provided the logs are accurate and match what you are buying then it should be OK. They have an type of encumberance register that you need to check.

I found with the US the best way was to get a pre inspection done by someone from another state to do it. That way there is little chance of collusion in the inspection process.

Ferry flights, having done two I would suggest if it is the US and a Pacific is involved then GET A PROFESSIONAL FERRY PILOT.

UK/EUROPE

This area is a bit harder as despite each country being part of the EU, they all have differing requirements for aircraft purchase. In my case I bought an aircraft in the UK. Here i used a lawyer who saved me around $20,000, when he discovered the aircraft in question had local council charges attached to it that did not show up anywhere else. If I had completed the sale in ignorance then I would have had this cost on top of the purchase price.

Ferry flights from Europe to Australia are very straight forward, mostly you will not need to ferry tank the aircarft and the flight can be done on a PPL, but remember you will need an instrument rating for the flight across Saudi Arabia as they don't recognise VFR flight.

As a general comment you will need someone to do your clearances,I suggest you talk to Mike from White Rose in the UK. He is extremely professional, very reasonable rates and you actually get to talk to the chap doing the organising rather than dealing with a large company who will be expensive and impersonal.

Hope that helps

[baron_beeza]

I have seen any number of imports, some work out well and some... well they just don't work out.

The best place to start, - honestly.. is on your doorstep.

I assume you want to import an aircraft with a view to flying it. Don't start with an aircraft and work from there, you don't fly a cross country from the destination backwards.

You need to talk to the guys involved in the certification process and your LAME.
They will be well aware of all the errors that can be made.
Once you know what will be required then you know what questions to ask of the seller.

New logbooks normally have to be made up. That involves cross converting AD's, researching Bulletins as well as verifying all component times. Any unrecorded maintenance can be a killer.

Shipping an aircraft is also a straightforward exercise if everyone knows what they are doing. I have seen two aircraft pulled from a container and both be flying 27 hours later. They were imported by an engineer and although he had not done the export he had a good agent in the States. With good sound communication the logs were all prepared whilst the aircraft were still on the water. That just left the reassembly and conformity inspections, along with the 100 Hr/Annual.
For an airworthy machine you will need an Export C of A completed also.

The LAME will need to have a good working relationship with the guy doing the pre-purchase/ Export C of A. If those guys have done their jobs correctly then all the else just falls into place.

It can be a fun and interesting exercise. All very exciting..

[Old Akro]

Ferrying is more expensive than you might think. Get a quote on handling & airnav fees from Mike Rose at WhiteRose in the UK. Plus tanks (presumably) plus sign out plus insurance.

[kingtoad]

I know of an owner that purchased an Aztec some years ago without a good pre-purchase inspection. It ended up costing him about $70K more than he had expected. A good pre-purchase is the starting point. Is it an Aztec you're after?

[Aztec Driver]

The plan is to document the complete process from start to finish and then make it available to anybody that is considering buying from an overseas market.

I would be looking at an Aztec if I was to purchase the aircraft, the reason for an Aztec they are a good machine and I also have some good working knowledge and experience with the Aztec.

The reason I’m researching this topic, is because I have heard of some horror stories from people that have purchased overseas, so I want to make sure that anybody that is thinking about purchasing an aircraft has enough information to assist them with the purchase.

[Mach E Avelli]

Since the invention of GPS, there is nothing difficult about flying a light aircraft from the USA to AUS across the Pacific. The FAA are reasonable about issuing overweight ferry permits, so chances are you would want to keep it N registered for the ferry. That has a few ownership issues but is not insurmountable.
The critical part is getting a good ferry tank installation. That's where you really need someone who knows what they are doing. Flying the Pacific these days in a light aircraft is p!ss easy if you know your machine well enough to cope with takeoff weights 25% or more above gross and can stay awake for 20 hours at a stretch, then do an IFR approach in a bit of rain - 'cos it is always raining somewhere on the route.
Paperwork doesn't cause ferry crashes; pilots and fuel starvation do. So get hold of a ferry company or tank installer that knows the score.
If it is your dollar and you are reasonably competent, you absolutely should try to have the flying experience yourself, BUT flying it probably won't work out any cheaper than crating it up and shipping it.
PM me only if you are not just dreaming, because my tank expert contact guy is a busy man.

[Ovation]

Whether you ferry it or disassemble and stuff it into a container is not as important as a pre-purchase inspection (PPI). I have bought two aircraft from the USA, and for both I went there to inspect and close the deal subject to the PPI.

There is more than enough anecdotal evidence of buyers shelling out big dollars when they find out their new aircraft is not in as good a condition as reported. The cost of travelling overseas to wherever the aircraft is being sold to witness the PPI and check the log books is small change compared to the cost of sorting out problems once it's in your possession.

The US log books are nowhere as detailed as here in Australia, and accident damaged aircraft won't necessarily show up.

Also, don't forget that GST is payable on the purchase AND the ferry expenses unless you are a company and/or registered for GST. That way you'll pay GST and then recover it when you do your return.

[hiwaytohell]

Aztec driver, to reiforce what others have said:
1. Get good advice on the purchase
2. A thorough independent pre-purchase inspection. At least half the aircraft I have looked at in the US have been badly misrepresented. If possible inspect yourself. The maintenance standards and honesty of sellers in America is definitely not Australia.
3. Do a detailed title search and a search with the FAA (if USA) regarding damage history.
4. Do a thorough AD search and verify compliance. I have seen a lot of ADs pencil whipped.
5. Get good ferry advice from someone with a lot of experience. If you are going to do it yourself pay for their help. And get a good ferry tank installer. Its cheaper than a swim.
6. Do your homework and cross every T and dot every I. Make sure all the approvals, permits, general declarations, aircraft documents, your medical & licence are all in order and you have a second(or even third copy). Some of the ramp checks can be a lot of "fun"if your paperwork is not right. Particularly in Asia and the Middle East, not to mention the Feds in the US.
7. Don't do any maintenance without a post maintenance 2 hour test flight just before a long overwater flight.
8. It will always cost you twice as much as you think.
9. Obtain and wear good survival gear appropriate for the flight.
10. Take a sat phone.
11. If in Asia take "Good Money" that is clean unmarked US Dollars in cash less than 5 years old.
12. Have plenty of patience. I have seen perfectly rational experienced pilots nearly kill themselves with "get-home-itus". Wait out weather. Get plenty of rest! Another day might just save your life.
13. Re-read 1-12 again!
14. Stay dry.
15. Stay out of jail.

[tail wheel]

I would be looking at an Aztec if I was to purchase the aircraft...

I suggest you consider landed cost of an overseas aircraft, versus the aircraft price in the local market. Landed cost includes purchase price, all purchase costs, ferry and ferry pilot costs, duties, taxes and cost to put on the Australian register.

I think you will find a locally purchased Aztec, already on the Australian register, may be a cheaper and safer option.

Aside from from the fact a PA23 Aztec may be a very poor investment, buying an aircraft type built from 1952 and even the last Aztec built now being 30 years old, does not seem very wise at all.

I'm sure there are far wiser investments to waste your money on.

[baron_beeza]

I am also struggling a little with the Aztec choice. While ideally suited for a ferry flight the end result may not be financially viable.
The Aztec does not score too highly as an engineers aircraft, perhaps because it is not a true Piper. The rest of the family are much easier to work on.

Did we see some Aztecs sitting on Tarawa in some posts here a few months ago ?

A much closer ferry.
I would dread packing an Aztec into a container, I have done it once... not at all interested in doing another.

[STOL Artist]

So who are the go to ferry guys/companies in Oz nowadays for US to Aus ferries? Most seem to have dropped off the radar or folded.

[poohead]

Clamback and Hennessy at Bankstown still do it as far as i'm aware.

[hiwaytohell]

Unless it is something special, why bother? There are some great deals in Australia at the moment!

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

11. If in Asia take "Good Money" that is clean unmarked US Dollars in cash less than 5 years old.

If you are in Jakarta, try 2010 notes or later...
Got 2006 notes knocked back last month, but funnily enough, more money seems to make unacceptable money ok....

Everywhere else was ok, just Indonesia.

Thieving fcuks....

[hiwaytohell]

Noted re Indonesia... similar experience in Balikpapan, but not 2010 notes.

I have had issues with older, torn or marked USD in the Middle East, as well as Malaysia, Philippines and even Japan. Mostly legitimate people... the issue is that their banks wont take USD older than 5 years, or if they are torn, or marked!

I had not heard about 2010, but will take care next time.

If Aztec Driver is still looking for an Aztec I see there is an ex Alligator Aztec auction running right now Gregsons - Auctions - ADMINISTRATORS ONLINE AIRCRAFT CLEARANCE AUCTION (http://www.gregsons.com.au/index.php?type=auction&content=administrators-online-aircraft-clearance-auction)

or

Gregsons - Home (http://www.gregsons.com.au)

[LeadSled]

Folks,
In recent times, I have seen two late model, low hour (genuine) Aztec that have always been private aircraft, going for a song.
Trouble is, Aztecs are cheap here, too, and by the time you add the cost inc. GST of getting the aircraft here --- and putting it on the AU register (if you must, there are alternatives) ---- what you have is a real nice aeroplane, at about the same price as a higher hour airframe here.

Who said the Aztec was not a Piper aircraft. The line might have theoretically started as the Twin-Stinson108, but the first PA 23-150 Apaches didn't owe much to the Twin Stinson, apart from the fact they were both twin engine aircraft. It's stretching a long bow to say the Apache/Apache 236/Aztec line are "not really Pipers".

Tootle pip!!.

PS: Join AOPA USA, and use their title search/guarantee and escarow services, a drop in the bucket for first class service.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

If Aztec Driver is still looking for an Aztec I see there is an ex Alligator Aztec auction running right now Gregsons - Auctions - ADMINISTRATORS ONLINE AIRCRAFT CLEARANCE AUCTION

HA!
That aircraft was one of the reasons they got yanked!:=

20' pole?............

[Jabawocky]

Tail Wheel has a good point, that being said a better buy might be a Baron, bit more money but in the USA not much more.

Twins are cheaper than near equivelant singles so, don't rush in. Buy a ticket to the USA and go look, then find the right guy to help, I could help with a few contacts IF AND ONLY IF you get that serious.

As a bare minimum, take the USA price, convert to AUD and add $30k and that assumes you don't do anything more than than stick on different rego.

Some of you know the Critter, his words are, once you start, just keep writing cheques until it flies, so make sure you have plenty more than you think you need! Good advice :ok:

[baron_beeza]

Who said the Aztec was not a Piper aircraft.

Hmmm, If that is the same as;
The Aztec does not score too highly as an engineers aircraft, perhaps because it is not a true Piper. The rest of the family are much easier to work on.

The Aztec family is completely different in construction and similarity to other Piper aircraft. Most of the Piper aircraft are well thought out and easy to maintain.

I don't do much Aztec work these days but did about 30 years ago. While I am happy to work on old Seneca's and the like I could not say the same about the earlier Piper twin range.

[baswell]

They can scrub up quite nicely, though.

EAA Sport Aviation - July 2012 (http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201207?pg=46#pg46)

[tail wheel]

The Aztec was not originally a Piper design:

"Originally designed in the 1950s by the Stinson Aircraft Company, the Apache and its more powerful development the Aztec were manufactured from the 1950s to the 1980s by Piper Aircraft in the United States.

The PA-23 was the first twin-engine Piper aircraft and was developed from a proposed "Twin Stinson" design, inherited when Piper bought the Stinson Division of the Consolidated Vultee Aircraft Corporation"

Expensive aircraft to maintain, particularly frequent undercarriage overhaul. Another aircraft past it's time.

[Jasiri]

Hello guys. I don't know if this thread is still active but worth a shot. Im also trying to import an aircraft, a Baron 58, to Kenya from either the US or UK (at least here i can easily verify their logs). I would love some advice by anyone who has done it before.

[Manubada]

Hi Jasiri,

If your looking for a Ferry Company, l can highly recommend Windward Aviation. They are based in LAS Vegas. Give Robin a call. PM me if you would like to communicate further.

All the best,

Manu´

[ausflyer]

Mike at White Rose in the UK are tops!!!!!