AIPA

[Bigboeingboy]

Word has it that Barry and co are concerned that there is nobody to to replace them on AIPA exec once they depart.
My concern is they can't leave quick enough after stuffing it up for everybody but themselves.
RW has cost the membership their careers after 20 years of pulling his own pude.
Please do us a favor BJ and and RW and leave.

[Di_Vosh]

(Sits back to watch)...

[Keg]

Yeah, cause this is the forum for it. :rolleyes:

[dragon man]

If the job they have done is so bad why have so few members resigned. AIPA is not the cause of Qantas pilots problems, inept management is.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Barry and the boys are taking up the fight as best they can. Another option would be simply to roll over and give Qantas everything they want.

[ampclamp]

I'll give til this arvo before it goes click

[newsensation]

Hay BigBoy, why dont you get yourself on the committee and do a better job!:D:ok:
I am sure you have all the answers....

[balance]

BBB.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. So why give it on a forum such as this. Have some "bigboeingballs" and say it in public. Then people might sit up and take notice. Or better yet, run for com! Or even better still, run for president of AIPA!

Otherwise, as amp said, "click".

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The thread is relevant. It's about the main Association representing pilots down under. It will be a problem if Barry, Dave and Richard all give it away at the same time. Fingers crossed that there are some dedicated Pilots out there ready to step up to the plate.

[Trent 972]

Word is some of the AIPA 'Young Guns' are stirring the pot.
If Barry wants to take a break, I'd hope to see Woody (RW) carry on.

[balance]

It is called democracy, cloudbuster.

So whats your solution, my friend?

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Whilst I am a supporter of our Assosiation I have to say that the comments made in the "Australian" today (Qantas pilots protest at changes to ownership rules, flight time limits, staffing levels) had me concerned how much the com might be out of touch with the current issues.

RW said;"If they operated with the minimum crew everywhere, as per the regulations, they would get more than 200 pilots surplus out of that,""We would be concerned about minimum crew operations from a fatigue point of view, and we would also be concerned about the future of our young pilots. That would be a significant surplus when we are already in surplus because the airline chose to shrink the fleet."

It is very hard to support these arguments regarding minimum crew as
a) Fatigue is a fact of life in long haul operations
b) We are very well compensated to manage the above.
c) Our competitors operate to the same standard of minimum crew
d) Crew surplus is a poor argument not to support efficiencies such as operating min crew.

Unfortunately past practices are finished, long layovers to work on the tan or to catch up with the girlfriends is over. It is now just all about the bottom line for the company. If we require an extra crew member that is not required due F & D limitations then i'm afraid we don't need them.
With the current situation of senior guys (over 60's) still hanging around and bidding pack to F/O positions on the 380 and 737 commands there really isn't a lot of sympathy being shown to the younger guys from their peers, despite all the rhetoric.

Realistically redundancies will be unavoidable so it would be advantageous of AIPA to negotiate the best deal possible for this inevitable outcome :eek:

In regard to the current award, and I do enjoy working under it and the benefits it has provided, its days are numbered. With the segregating of longhaul/shorthaul/Jetstar businesses I think "the black book" will be exposed for what it has unfortunately become, outdated and inefficient compared to what is around today.

The trick is to make sure we don't remain outdated and inefficient as well.

[DutchRoll]

*Inefficient* - The word you use to blame your employees when you don't actually have a clue how to quantify or rectify what is going wrong.

I'm utterly sick and tired of sitting around on my ar$e for hours in every pattern because Qantas have to build all this "flexibility" into the trips so they can allow for the inevitable failure of their understaffed and under-resourced "support" organisations to play catchup with delayed services.

Honestly, their use of the word "efficiency" is just a joke. :mad:

And don't even get me started on "inefficient" as it applies to aircraft fleets versus fuel versus payload versus destinations! :mad::mad:

[Stalins ugly Brother]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What he said!

There is no doubt the company and its pathetic management has been more inefficient than any of its collective awards or employees put together could possible be, I just thought that would go without saying. :ooh:

To be honest, I think all this industrial stuff is just a side show to what these Pr@cks are ultimately up to. Time will tell.

[Keg]

Interesting. No thread running like this on Qrewroom at the moment where the heroes like Bigboeingboy could actually be up front with his thoughts regarding AIPA. Why am I not surprised! :rolleyes:

What's that famous Churchill quote about democracy? Something along the lines of it being the worst form of government.... except for all the others that have been tried. I think that applies to AIPA irrespective of who is running it.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Excuse my ignorance. I just thought AIPA had more members than AFAP. To be honest, I wouldn't really know.

[teresa green]

Bloody hell, nothing changes. Since the AIPA left the AFAP there are always the whingers, As a bloke who spent some 10 years on the AFAP commitee, if you know better, stop whinging and offer yourself and your ideas up for election, otherwise shut the :mad: up.

[waren9]

AIPA just work within the Qantas group.

To my knowledge not true.

AIPA have a seat at IFALPA, are working with NZALPA and domestically, have been working with VIPA.

Happy to stand corrected.

Edited to add: I just wish what ever the differences are with AFAP, they could be sorted.

[*Lancer*]

Keg, I understand your point of view, but the reality is that Qrewroom does not promote meaningful debate. Typically the usual suspects hijack threads to bully what is not necessarily the majority view. Many are uncomfortable with publicly expressing their opinions in what often becomes a hostile and confrontational environment. I've been controversial in the past to a chorus of public ridicule, only to have a bunch of private messages, emails and phone calls of support - that's not debate. Plenty of other PPRUNE vs Qrewroom examples, even now!

Although AIPA is democratic, the Exec hold most of the cards when it comes to internal political 'campaigning' (spin). For better or worse, meaningful change only occurs when a large group pool resources and form some sort of party... The last occasion might have been a political success story, but it quickly turned into an industrial failure :rolleyes:

[Capt Kremin]

I just wish what ever the differences are with AFAP, they could be sorted

I sat through an AIPA/AFAP meeting once. One of the parties began airing a grievance going back to the mid 1980's and it all became clear to me why, while certain people remain rusted on in certain positions, that there will never be a rapprochement. Can anyone guess who I am talking about?

[WorthWhat]

when it comes to internal political 'campaigning'....political success stories quickly turn into industrial failure

Is a cold reality of modern democracy.

Rudd and Woods have things in common. Independence and honesty was their personal strength and their political weakness. Both were elected by the masses and dumped by their party.

We get the government we deserve.

Let’s hope Australia doesn’t come to lament the demise of Rudd’s Mining Tax and Qantas pilots the failure of EBA 8.

[Josh Cox]

I am not a member of AIPA, but wish them well.

It is disgraceful that there appears to be an attempt to publicly assassinate representative members, of any union/federation, if you don't like the cut of their jib , get involved in the PC and vote them out.

The only winner from this type of behavior is not the members.

I sat through an AIPA/AFAP meeting once. One of the parties began airing a grievance going back to the mid 1980's and it all became clear to me why, while certain people remain rusted on in certain positions, that there will never be a rapprochement.

That is unfortunate ( and needs to change ), but I guess that is what happens when egos overstep common sense and the reason for being there.

We are such an industry of haters, 89's, not 89's, jetstar, mainline, AFAP, AIPA, TWU, left handers, right handers, the ambidextrous, cat people and those dastardly dog people............................

I feel PPRuNe (publicly) is not the forum for this type of discussion.

[Trent 972]

I feel PPRuNe (publicly) is not the forum for this type of discussionAnd yet, you just did!
And who exactly did I slag off ?.
Relax Josh. I simply made the observation that you engaged in a discussion on a forum that you argue is not a suitable forum for the discussion.
Why did you bother?

[Josh Cox]

And who exactly did I slag off ?.

[bdcer]

Haa Haa....Rudd (or most pollies for that matter!) honest....Haa Haa!!
You gotta get out more;)

[Josh Cox]

Thanks Trent,

Why did you bother?

I was hoping it might prompt some inward reflection.

Sure, punch it out behind the bike shed if that is your thing, but personally attacking someone on a public forum using a pseudonym is not the image I would like to see painted of me and my peers.

Remember, the media frequents these pages.

[vwreggie]

After years of serving on various senior and junior amateur sporting committees as well as coaching I had to explain to my daughter once that on any voluntary committee you will have a small percentage of the people doing the work and the large percentage standing around gossiping about how the volunteers might do things better.

I am never critical of people spending their time serving on a voluntary basis in a capacity that serves me when I have neither the time nor inclination to DO any better.

Thanks for your efforts to date guys.

See you behind the shed big boeing boofhead

[Keg]

I was hoping it might prompt some inward reflection.

Inward reflection? From pilots? :ok: :}

[Angle of Attack]

Just to clarify an earlier poster, no AIPA is not only the domain of QF Group pilots, there are quite a number of VB pilots as members too and they receive all the legal support as per all members.

[Air Ace]

Pilots generally are yet to learn the old adage:

"United they stand, divided they fall."

One profession, how many unions? No wonder the airlines can pick them off.

Derived from the Latin saying Divide et impera, "Divide and Conquer" is probably the personal motto of most contemporary airline executive managers!

[unseen]

Serious question:

if you know better, stop whinging and offer yourself and your ideas up for election, otherwise shut the http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif up.
If you don't what like what the Australian or state governments do - do you stop whinging and offer yourself and your ideas up for election?

I bet the answer is no - we make our voice heard to our elected officials by letter writing, phone calls, emails etc etc.

Why is a union different?

Isn't it our duty as members to say when we don't agree with the direction taken by the committee or how they go about it, even if it is not a popular view?

Does everyone who has an interest in how things are done have to either stand for election or just shut up and go away????

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Does everyone who has an interest in how things are done have to either stand for election or just shut up and go away????

No they shouldn't have to stand for election or shut up and go away. I've always said that only about 1% of any union's membership have an interest in being a Representative at any level and of those, less than half do it for the right reasons and of that half, less than half are effective at what they do.

A true union or Association will listen to the views of all its members whether they like what they are hearing or not. The organisation and its leaders should then represent the views of the majority and put aside their personal preferences. Members should then respect the views of the majority and stand as one with them.

That being said, on these forums there are a number of players who are clearly not part of any organisation other then management.

[teresa green]

Unseen excuse my over reaction, but if you look at it from a committee members point of view, you see blokes who give up the little free time they have to keep the union going. You see blokes who often cop it from home about doing that extra work, as their day job sees them away so often. You see blokes who are basically community minded, who take on the fight for all of you against the companies. So you can understand when the whingers start naming names about these blokes and what they have failed to do, and you say Ok mate, how about you put your hand up, you can bet your right ball you will get, Oh the missus is not all that well, or we have a new kid, or I have to look after the ol man, etc etc etc. It never occurs to them the committee member might be in the same boat, but some how manages to find the time. Everybody has a right to a opinion without having to join the committee, but after ten years on the AFAP, I came to the conclusion, that there are the doers, the whingers, and the don't give a ****, but thanks anyway people. Committee members are not asking for a gong, they just ask for a little understanding, they are not getting paid, they are on the hate list of their company, and they are probably copping a earful from the missus, and when they get back on the flight deck. Just the view from the other side sometimes helps.

[*Lancer*]

I wonder how many of the 5 or so effective representatives are in the Exec of AIPA? :hmm:

[Jackneville]

"outdated and inefficient compared to what is around today"

So why is it that when we check in/out of our slip hotels, I see other long haul crews that comprise of two Captains and two F/o's ?

[Keg]

At the current AUD and given what many of our long haul pilots earn, that's no longer an argument in our favour. Our 744 and A380 F/Os are earning better (perhaps significantly so) than many command contracts.

At 70 cents to the USD it may be a different story- probably break even. At 50 cents we're finally in front with our model

This is part of the issue that we face. We continually delude ourselves with comparisons that once were accurate but aren't at the moment. Maybe they will suit us again in the future but at the moment they just illustrate that we're completely out of touch with the current reality. Let's hope the reality changes for all our good.

[clear to land]

FWIW guys, to give a fare wage comparison, I am an EK 777 TRI, living in company accomodation ie no living out allowance. If I use the ATO calculator to determine what I need to earn, before tax, to end up with what I get in the hand, and factoring the company determined accomodation value the calculator figure is just shy of $AU410k per annum on todays exchange rate. I am guessing that the average QF TRI doesn't get that. Yes I do have to live in DXB to get it, but guess what, it is what you make it, just like Nhulunbuy was in 1990. Nothing has been constant in Australia except the erosion of pilots salaries- years ago it used to be the same as a High Court Judge, now.......
When in Australia I was on a number of Pilot Committees-and the only constant was that when it came to facing the company, all the very vocal supporters suddenly shut up, and I was on my own. Hence coming to a place where I can't join a group as they are illegal, thus I keep myself out of that sort of trouble :)

[kellykelpie]

I think you may find that there are QF TRIs, TREs on a fair bit more than this clear to land.

[clear to land]

If so kelly-thats great to hear. :D Like I said-it's certainly no longer the equivelent of a High Court Judge.:ugh:

[DutchRoll]

Inward reflection? From pilots?

Couldn't agree more Keg.

[bdcer]

Here we go again...I suppose it is a rumour network, but KellyK can you please prove your statement about huge salaries? My mates alway talk about some friend earning "heaps", so I ask how much do they actually earn, the usual answer is "well I don't know actually". Can you substantiate your claim?
Cheers

[kellykelpie]

I can't show a payslip, no.

[What The]

There would be a handful of crew on the same or more than the EK figure quoted. Most would be management or supervisory pilots on the 744 or 380. The other 2200 pilots are on less.

Saw a management pilot in Singapore recently. Recognized him by the lack of a spine.

[maggot]

I can't show a payslip, no.

Q.E.D.



:rolleyes:

[bdcer]

Please, not having a go at KellyKelpie, just curious if it's another rumour or fact. :}

[maggot]

i'm always getting told what I earn by folks on other fleets, strangely enough they are always waaaay out. :ugh:

[bdcer]

Yeh Maggot, I find it frustrating.
It's like whenever the government spokespeople get on the tv news & say that they are compensating families for the increase in cost of living for the carbon tax....wrong!....if you are not entitled to either family tax benefit, you don't get any compensation (no education tax rebate for the kids, you have to pay full flood levy, no Rudd handouts, etc, etc).
I just wish they'd be honest & tell the truth, not everyone is getting "looked after".
Before you say that because we earn good coin, we don't deserve compensation, I think that is very unfair. For example, if they want to recover money for Queensland floods (who didn't have adequate insurance BTW) then we should ALL pay an amount relative to what we earn. Why should some members of the workforce pay all the bills!! & Where is the motivation to work harder & earn more???
Sorry, now I've really gone off thread.....

[COM Cleaner]

Bigboeingboy,

As a well-known member of the COM, the very fact that you started this thread, as well as the tone, level and style of your first and only post before handing over to your alter ego CaptCloudbuster, shows that you lack both the integrity and the maturity to adequately represent the membership. I expect that other members of the COM might be a little hesitant to involve themselves in the full and frank discussions that the COM must have to function well if the likelihood is that anything that doesn't go James' way end up on public forums like PPRuNe. I'm guessing WorthWhat is another (unimaginative) one of your collection of profiles.

for the CaptCloudbuster types,

Neither the COM nor the Executive are going to please everyone. There are some unrealistic expectations among the members and there are some real-world realities involved in running professional associations that require the balancing of political, legal, financial and welfare outcomes. Consensus is a worthy aim (no pun intended) but is rarely achieved - the Executive exists to provided direction and consistency in decision-making because a consensus model lacks agility and timeliness.

As for 'young leadership', how does the age demographic of the COM look? Right now, AIPA enjoys a political and public profile that reflects maturity, a respect for the travelling public and measured responses to industrial and business circumstances. That profile is gold in the long game - a game that is essential for the future of the members.

The hard-won respect from many quarters that AIPA currently has is easily thrown away by those who want everything 'now' but lack the experience, credibility or stategic vision to be able to tell the difference between self-indulgent noise and a considered and measured response. Not all current decisions are suitable for detailed explanation while the games are still afoot, particularly if there are members of the COM who do not, or perhaps cannot, understand the need for maturity and integrity in dealing with the materials that are placed before them during the deliberations of the COM.

So, be careful what you wish for....

[balance]

Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it...

*Click*

:D;):sad::ok::ugh::mad::rolleyes:

[astroboy55]

com cleaner...

idiot.

i think you'll find that the agenda of those who you think 'want it all now' is actually just to ensure we get a shot at it some of it, eventually.

FWIW i think the COM overall do a good job, and have supported them as such.

id say this thread has run its course....

[*Lancer*]

COM Cleaner,

That might have been a more credible post if you'd left out the personal attack. Or signed off with your real name. :rolleyes:

[IsDon]

As one who is not on the COM, I find it a little distressing that our elected representatives are stabbing one another in the back on a public forum.

Perhaps this discussion should be moved to Qrewroom where you can carry on this nonsense in full view of the membership, and without the pseudonyms to hide behind.

[HF3000]

"And this... is why... you fail..."

- Yoda.

[Capt Kremin]

I am not really sure that there is any more than one COM member commenting on this thread. The characterisation of BBB as one of the COM members I find a tad ludicrous. BBB strikes me as a troll..

[IsDon]

I am not really sure that there is any more than one COM member commenting on this thread. The characterisation of BBB as one of the COM members I find a tad ludicrous. BBB strikes me as a troll..

If that's the case then James has been slandered and should take it further.

[balance]

If that's the case then James has been slandered and should take it further.

Yup. Where is that *click* mods?

[maggot]

BBB strikes me as a troll

of course he is! click his/her profile and check past posts. :ugh: