Starting FAA-JAA Conversion: Any advice welcome

[Skymaster15L]

Greetings fellow members!
Before starting my first post, allow me to say it is wonderful to be part of this constructive online community. I have lurked on PPrune quite a few times before , in an effort to educate myself and address pivotal decision making moments I've occasionally encountered throughout the formation of my flight training career so far.

As an FAA CPL ME/IR &CFI certificate holder, i will be shortly embarking on the conversion journey to JAA frozen ATPL status, however, I will be doing it all from withing the EU, rather than with a flight school within the US. Personal circumstances have dictated relocation for me back within the EU (of which I am a citizen) so I figured I'd make my presence count for something else while here.

I am considering completing my training within the UK, and from what I've researched, OAA and Bristol.gs are seem to be 2 very good options. What has been found to be the general consenus in terms of customer feedback/reviews between the two? Does anyone know of any other FTOs in the UK worth considering (for the ATPL theory at least) that I haven't heard of?
Also since both centers offer distance in addition to classroom learning, I would like some input from those of you who have any experience with the ATPL examinations, as to which you recommend more (assuming budget is not necesarilly a limiting factor)?

Is there, let's say, a clear benefit that makes a night and day type difference, to undergoing the full classroom instruction program vs distance learning? Or if one is capable of pacing himself at home and generally capable of high information retention, is it generally advised to save those thousands of pounds difference for the higher flight training costs, tests, and simulator MCC courses I would need to complete later on?

Now regarding the flying bit, since neither OAA or Bristol offer any flight training packages for the conversion process, what are some flight schools in the UK that I could approach for this, once I have the theoretical examinations out of the way? Since I would also need an initial UK class one medical, is that a pretty straightforward process (other than being more rigorous than an FAA 1st Class) or does it take a few days to issue?

Lastly, without trying to offend anyone, but in trying to place a factual base (if any) to rumors I've heard over time, is there really an unwritten rule stating that certain EU countries' licenses are better/more sought after than others? I have considered a few other places more inland in continental Europe (Greece, Slovenia, Romania), but I am a bit hesitant ( as would be all) about spending a great sum of money on something "looked down upon" out of a popular belief I am not even aware of. For the moment being at least, I am settling on the UK due to the pure fact that a lack of ridiculous bureaucracy and a local language I understand would accommodate me in completing my training.

I would be very grateful for any additional insight and advice anyone has for me regarding all these topics mentioned, as I really need to make a decision as informed as possible on this. Already being $100,000 down, and with family helping pay part of the training, there is an element of pressure at play too.

Thank you all for you time :D

[de facto]

Good luck:8
You are 100 000$ for just an FAA CFI??you have an hidden addiction?

[zondaracer]

Have you run a search yet? This topic is well documented and discussed on here.
http://www.pprune.org/search.php


To give you a headstart:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/468554-deciding-between-bristol-oxford-groundschool.html

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/469376-conversion-less-than-5-figures.html

There are several distance providers now for ATPL:
Bristol
Oxford
CATS
BCFT
ProPilot
and I'm sure there are more.

I did distance learning via Bristol and would fully recommend them. Haven't tried anyone else so I can't say if they are good or not.

I did my First Class medical at Gatwick and they were able to issue the medical the same day unless they need to do further investigations.

Do the medical first. If you pass, sign up for a ground school, which ever one works best for you. When you get close to finishing, start looking for a school for the flying bit. I personally thought BCFT was quite a good place at a decent price.

I've started to hear people talking about doing conversions in Iceland and being happy with it, but I haven't been there myself.
http://www.pprune.org/nordic-forum/477771-jar-conversion-any-suggestions.html

Now, go use the search function
http://www.pprune.org/search.php

[Another]

some honest advice you wont like (and are trying to make an informed decision): dont do it.

i love flying and understand you want to do this but please bear with me for a second.

you state you have a FAA CPL and dont mention any 121 experience
so im assuming you dont have a lot of hours on a multi pilot aircraft? (if you have A320/737 time, that changes things a bit :-) )

with that background, there are "conversion" elements but you end up doing a lot from scatch (been there done that... you cant just walk in and take an instrument checkride etc. )

taking the ATP theory and practice will take time and money.

the issue is that, at the end of all that, your chances of employment in Europa are not all that great. (unless you realize that when you are done and then spend more bucks getting an A320 type to then realize you need to buy yourself 500 hrs of training).

airline hiring is often through integrated courses (yes, also from modular ones) but there is an element of luck involved that im not sure you can afford with wanting to pay back what will be more debt by the time you finish training. (are you fluent in any other European language? - that broardens options a bit)

GA in Europe is limited and flight instructing will not help pay off $100,000 of debt.

if you want to be honest with yourself, research employment opportunities with a frozen ATP and limited hours/no TR.

check out this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs

best of luck.

[Another]

a follow-up thought: (as its unlikely you will choose a different path all of a sudden ;-) )

how many hours do you have TT/Instrument/Multi?
it might be easier to get a job at a regional in the US, get some hours, pay off debt.
there are different threshholds of multi-crew hours that would make a conversion easier, read-up on that too... (think it was 500 to waive MCC and 1500 to waive flight hour requirements before you can do a checkride - but that was a while ago.)

with a bit of luck that would also help you sit out the european economy mess...

also if you love flying and have another breadwinner in the family keeping you busy with FAA->JAA conversion isnt too bad. but not everyone has that option...

[Skymaster15L]

Thank you all for the replies so far, and I do apologize for neglecting to use or consider the search function.

@ de facto-no hidden addictions here, except maybe the exposed addiction about love of flying. Having done my training in a 4 year collegiate program that also issued an aviation degree is what mounted up the costs.

@ Another-i appreciate as well, your view/advice on things-trully. To answer questions, I am at a mere 370 hours tt-have been flight instructing for not too long, about 120 dual given; about 30 IFR hours; 60 Multi. No 121 exp whatsoever. An alternate bread winner(s) in the family is not an issue for me at this point (very understanding bread winners let's sayy), and for now can afford the freedom to tackle things in the next 1.5 years ,by which I hope to be done in the worst case scenario. I am also aware of the added cost of conversion, especially the flight part, I mean, i understand one always needs to get used to aircraft handling again, especially if it is one which of different make than my multi trainer.

However, there is still the question of practicality and usefullness of all this when it is said and done. I am already also willing to accept the self funded type rating as being the norm, but is there really no hope in the coming years, considering Europe is still a large area, and there are always waves of pilots nearing retirement? You also mentioned the integrated schemes most airlines use to recruit-is there no hope for any of us who've done either the modular/integrated approach at a flight school with no airline recruitment affiliation? I would treasure any additional insight from all willing to share, thank you

[Trolle]

A few years ago I did what you are starting out on. It's a long road and don't get frustrated. The level of knowledge required for the theoretical exams is much more than in the US (also did the 4 year aviation-college-thing), and the procedures in the air are much more complicated (from my perspective and depends on which country you fly in). To help out I wrote a review of my own experience, which you can see here:
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/464821-faa-jaa-my-experiences-bonus-aviation-merged.html

I wrote a few blog posts about my experience with choosing a place; nothing much written there though. Search for FAA2JAA on blog spot.

To answer a few of your questions:
Does anyone know of any other FTOs in the UK worth considering (for the ATPL theory at least) that I haven't heard of?
I went to CATS (see their ads on PPRuNe) and it was fine; good value for money. With your experience no need to get the best and brightest; get something that will help you pass and don't spend money on the bells and whistles.

Also since both centers offer distance in addition to classroom learning, I would like some input from those of you who have any experience with the ATPL examinations, as to which you recommend more (assuming budget is not necesarilly a limiting factor)?
DL or in-house depends entirely on your situation and your personality. DL requires constant motivation and dedication; I had done DL before for college so I was prepared for it. Lots of lost of nights and weekends learning material which isn't covered in FAA-world. DL allowed me to keep my job, so that is always a plus.

Now regarding the flying bit, since neither OAA or Bristol offer any flight training packages for the conversion process, what are some flight schools in the UK that I could approach for this, once I have the theoretical examinations out of the way?
Several schools (in the UK) offer a tailored packed for conversion. I checked the LASORS document (similar to the AIM) which lists the FTOs in the UK and started comparing what they offered. See my PPRuNe post about my experiences.

Since I would also need an initial UK class one medical, is that a pretty straightforward process (other than being more rigorous than an FAA 1st Class) or does it take a few days to issue?
It took me half-a-day at Gatwick and was issued immediately. You need it to start training; at least that was my impression. Might as well get it done ASAP; just like you recommend your own students, I assume. You just call them up and schedule the date.

is there really an unwritten rule stating that certain EU countries' licenses are better/more sought after than others
Probably not a rule but I think it is not unexpected for HR people to have a perception of the training of one country vs. another. See it as a stamp of approval. Same in the US. One type of training says one thing about an applicant while another type of training something else. Similar to the 3 guys who have trained respectively in the military, college, and the local airport. We all have prejudices about their abilities and experiences. It's in the readers mind though; we all know that someone with a license from the "best" country can still be a crappy pilot. I have also heard what you are asking and I don't know the answer. The instructor I had told me some stories about training and renewal, which if true, wouldn't surprise me if those countries are frowned upon. However, go to the place that suits you and your needs.

Already being $100,000 down, and with family helping pay part of the training, there is an element of pressure at play too.
This is disheartening to hear and I understand the dilemma. Unfortunately, as
Another wrote, it's not the best decision to make. I love to fly and did my time in 121 operations, but I wouldn't convert today if I knew the situation in the EU. To put it in perspective. I spoke with the chief pilot about a part-time 737 FO position. Self-funded type rating (remember, that should probably be added to your costs as it is becoming the norm in the EU at the moment) and it was only a summer job! He had nearly 1000 applications on his desk for 12 positions and he hadn't even advertised the openings yet. There have been so many bankruptcies all over Europe that there are probably 1000s of qualified and unemployed pilots ready to take a job. We're at the bottom of the list. There are jobs to be found though but they are few and far between. I would recommend you to stay in the US and aim for a regional; it'll take a while maybe but with 500 multi crew hours you can ditch the ground school requirement at least.

Hope that helps you out.

[Skymaster15L]

Thank you for taking the time to post your detailed experience and at the same time answering each question in part. I can only hope that after all the work you've put forth, your resume did finally cling to some kind of gig (assuming you are still in Europe)...did it?

[Another]

some thoughts

considering Europe is still a large area, and there are always waves of pilots nearing retirement?
yes, its large but languages continue to be a barrier, even in an english driven profession as pilots. do you speak german/french/spanish/dutch?
mainline lufthansa/AF+KLM/Iberia require local language.

what about Ryanair or easyjet? - not really for people with a frozen ATP and no time on type. you need to go to one of their training programs. really encourage you to check their websites.

You also mentioned the integrated schemes most airlines use to recruit-is there no hope for any of us who've done either the modular/integrated approach at a flight school with no airline recruitment affiliation? i cant add much to the general integrated vs. modular debate. a big picture insight however is that recruitment in the EU does NOT work like in the US.
its NOT PPL->IR->CFI->Regional->Mainline
instead its Nothing->pass some kind of selection -> Flight school that probably but not definitely offers employment -> mainline.

there is always luck. get a nice corporate gig through connections.
some companies do have different training approaches and want ready entry FOs.

but the chances are smaller than getting a regional job. (or instruct first to get hours)
that uses your current skills and at least a little bit of earning power. you can try the ATP via DL. it will take longer and will be very frustrating. but you get the same options to be in europe whilst keeping your US options open.

im not sure what is driving your desire/requirement to go back to europe but i think a more gradual transition has less risk involved. (whilst you learn more about how it works in europe).

[Skymaster15L]

Fellow members; hello again

I've done a google and forum search on the boards, but cannot seem to find any solid information regarding the EASA "State of License Issue" stipulation pertinent to my situation. Per my previous post(s) you will find that I am in the process of starting conversion of my FAA CPL ME/IR to EASA ATPL. I am a Romanian national but so far I am planning to complete the ATPL theory and flying parts integrally in the UK. Regarding this State of License issue, here are some questions that I need to clarify:

1) From what I've understood so far, the country in which I do my initial Class One Medical becomes state of license issue. Is that correct?

2) If I then choose to do part (or all of my flight training) in another EASA member state after passing the UK-sat ATPL theory tests, will this not be possible unless I change my state of license issue by transferring medical records to that state? Or will there also be an issue that by having UK-issued ATPL scores, my remaining training towards the fATPL will be bound to UK locations only, for completion?

3) If I do choose to do everything in the UK like I plan, what will happen if I then proceed to complete a type rating in another state I plan to work in?

According to EASA " All EASA licences issued to an individual must be from the same EASA Member State, which must be the State that holds the medical records for that individual"

Also "Under the new EASA regulations the licences held by an individual can only be administered by one Competent Authority, which hold the aeromedical records of the pilot in accordance with Part-MED...Whenever a pilot completes a licensing Skill Test, the examiner must also have the same State of Licence issue as the candidate"

Therefore, should I sing up for a type rating for the purpose of employment for a carrier in any other EU country, will I then have to either change state of license issue by record transfer, or make sure the TR flight test is administered by a UK CAA examiner and only then be ok to proceed for the TR?

4)If I do need to change state of issue, must I be a resident of that country, and does that also mean having to be re-issued new certificates from that country's CAA all over again?

Your experiences are very valuable and welcome; I plan on scheduling my medical very soon so I need to know I've researched as much as possible.
Thank you

[de facto]

Having done my training in a 4 year collegiate program that also issued an aviation degree is what mounted up the costs.

Ripped off by Embry Riddle?:E

[zondaracer]

State of License issue is where your license is issued. To make it simple, I will make an example.

If you do your medical in Germany, and you do your ATPLs in Greece, and you plan on doing your CPL in the UK, the UK will be your country of license issue but they cannot issue you a license until you have transferred your ATPL results and your medical results and have a new medical issued in the UK. Your State of License issue will hold your license and medical information.

If you want to add your IR rating, class rating, type rating, etc... to your license, but you complete the course outside of the UK, this is not a problem except that starting next month, the UK CAA will require your non-UK examiner to get a briefing first from Gatwick. This is different from before the EASA transition, when no briefing was required. But in the end, you will have a type rating on your UK license regardless of the fact that it was completed in another EASA country with a non-UK examiner.

Now, to answer some of your questions, some countries are more open than others in accepting ATPL passes from other countries.

Once you have a license issued and you desire to change state of license issue, it requires established residency, which means living 185 days in that state. Sometimes, you can get a change of state of license issue if you are hired by an airline which is registered in that state. In most cases that I am aware of, changing state of license issue is just a paperwork shuffle and involves a monetary fee, and yes, they will print you off new licenses from the new country. A Spanish guy recently told me it took him 3 months to change from a Spanish license to a UK license.

[Another]

Now, to answer some of your questions, some countries are more open than others in accepting ATPL passes from other countries.

this is a pretty important point. rules are streamlined but national implementation/interpretation varies.
add an extra layer of uncertainty given current switch of licenses.

CAA is probably among the more flexible ones. (so dont assume you could also go to any other state and expect the same rule. just as an example, i dont think germany accepts UK theory credit)

I encourage you to check out Iceland as well.

[Skymaster15L]

Understood; well like I mentioned, I am still planning in doing everything at only one venue (country-UK). However, I still wanted to test the waters, hence the nuances of questions, in case something unforeseen comes up mid way, and will require me to finish training in my home country. Yes, I have also heard the CAA to be pretty tolerant in accepting licenses done in other states, but the theory will most certainly be accomplished in the UK anyway.

Anyone know if once a country re-issues you licensees after a transfer of state of license issue, if that will also include any re-examinations (practical or theoretical) just to verify you are up their country's "standards" or is that already pushing it?

@Another, picking up information about Iceland's facilities as we speak (type ;)

Thanks again all

[zondaracer]

I haven't heard of any countries requiring retesting for change of state of issue. That would defeat the purposes of JAA, wouldn't it? Maybe someone can prove me wrong.

If you check out Iceland, check out Keilir Aviation.

[Söva]

@Skymaster15L:
I'm most certainly not in a position to advise You in regards to choosing the optimal path for an FAA to JAA conversion. So in respect to the Questions I'm about to ask You, I apologize in advance for not being of any assistance to You ...

I have a B.Sc. Degree in CS, and having experienced the IT industry in certain parts of EU, I have allways dreamt of one day also getting a Bachelor Degree in Aerospace Engineering, and ultimately also being involved in flying as a pilot. But being an EU citizen, observing and having first handedly experienced of what the Aviation industry - especially the "Flight Schools Industry" has come to in the South-Eastern part of Europe -, and especially the lack of quality Aerospace Universities/Colleges in my neck of the wood, I'm considering the idea of taking a similar route such as Your. - Full FAA ATPL w/ Aero Degree course in US, then converging to JAA somewhere in EU.

In one of Your answers You've mentioned having a $100k dept due to having done a 4 Yr. Aviation Degree while also getting a FAA CPL ME/IR & CFI certificates.

I know my Questions might be a bit of a off topic, but nonetheless I have to ask:
- Could You tell a bit more about the education path You took in US? -- College You've attended, Flight School collegiate programme, etc. ?
- Did the $100k cover all expenses for the 4 Yr. College AND the flying part? If affirmative, how were You able to keep costs so low? (Let me explain: all the various Aero College/University B.Sc. degree programmes + PPL & CPL & IR & CFI & CFII courses in US I've come across were quoting the costs north of $100k just for the Uni diploma.)

I'd be very much grateful for any kind of insight You could give regarding Your experiences for getting a 4 Yr. Degree and for getting all the pilot certificates You're currently holding.

Thanks.

[Skymaster15L]

@Sova-PM sent