norvegian air shuttle jobs info

[ulisse]

good day
I' like to have some info regarding the possibiity to get hired from norvegian as foreign pilot

according with the huge order of airplane they will need some driver

thanks

[Diper]

Utenlandske piloter er å foretrekke! De bør helst bo i Tallinn, Bangkok eller Malaga. Bør være kjernesunn da sykepenger ikke utbetales. Sats på å jobbe til du dør, da pensjon ikke er innkludert.
Opprettelse av familie er ikke ønskelig. Du har kun 8 fridager i mnd. Det kan bli færre, litt avhengi av om ny subart Q blir implementert.:D

[ulisse]

ok thanks

this seem not to solve the mistery

i know thath the company is talking with pilots union's

any other info is welcome to gain a clear picture

thanks

[viking767]

Reopened?
Not enough interest first time around?


Dear Captain,

We have you registered as a Captain with experience flying wide bodied Boeing aircraft.
We have reopened recruitment of Captains for Norwegian Long Haul’s B787 operation.

Please confirm your interest and availability for contract start in January 2013 by completing the attached Flight Crew Data Summary sheet and sending it back to me with any queries you may have.
Also please let me know if you are available for screening 14JUN or 18JUN where we still have slots available.

If you have already received this briefing from my colleague Torkel Waak and are not interested or available, please disregard.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Kind regards,
Claudia


Claudia Dahlgren
Senior Consultant

[trancada]

But about Foreign pilots, do you if they accept experienced pilots that can make an agreement about the payment of the B737 type rate?

[OSDELATROPO]

Hi,

Could someone tell me what kind Of working pattern are going on in AGP ( do we sleep in AGP everynight or do we carry our suitcase for à different location everyday)?

Depending on that I might consider applying as DEC.

Thanks

[Robert Palmer]

On any 8 day rotation you must spend a minimum of 6 nights at AGP, otherwise your duty is extended until you have 6 local nights in the last 8 days

[captplaystation]

Current recruitment is for LPA, no-one knows exactly how that roster will be, I expect a few nights in hotels in Scandinavia, as some of the destinations will be too far to facilitate a round-trip in one duty.

Current recruitment is not for AGP, but, in any case, the roster there is leave AGP Day1, nt stop in 1 or 2 different places "up North" return Day 5.

Constantly changing story regarding AGP based aircraft,rumours of anywhere between 2 & 6, recently expected by Winter, todays story is that it ain't gonna happen, so continue as gypsy. . . . . . .

Latest rumour is that LPA base will operate (round trip?) to Brazil to facilitate company ETOPS approval for 787 operation. :ooh:

[VNAV PATH]

Hello,

i've filled an application for B 787 .

Any info on the assesment process and sim test ?

Thanks

[PropsAreForBoats]

Drop pants, bend over. Good luck ;)

[Init-Refpage]

Since May we have introduced personality tests for new pilots and captain
candidates.( it is also an IQ test) These tests are developed by a company called Assessio, and it is used by the Long Haul-, Short Haul Fleet and the administration. The personality test is based on “The
Big Five”, which is a highly respected test system. Assessio has trained a group of HR and OPS personnel on how to interpret these tests and how to provide feedback.
Aaaaand by the way, there is also an simride.




So i think you`ll be left behind if you based your training on PS2`s :-)
God luck:-)

[NAIA]

we have introduced personality tests for new pilots and captain
candidates.( it is also an IQ test)

So you're gonna fire about 90% of your present pilots I take it?

[berserker]

Why all this hate? Remember that these are our fellow collegues.....
They are not to be blamed how things has become.
But of course, one start to wonder why they sudddenly have decided to start some serious screening.......

[Init-Refpage]

I give up!!!

this forum has lost all it`s former use..
all you people seem to be interested in is talking **** and being negative no matter what!?!
I remember at time when this was a serious website where a man could actually use some of the information that was shared here.
No it seems that the main goal is to trash everything.
(Before you start, this is not just the case in DY related threads)

Our profession don`t need more negativity.
how about growing up ;)

[Goldenbawls]

Some of us need to grow up, and and some of us need to grow a pair in order to secure this profession for the long haul :ok:

But of course, one start to wonder why they sudddenly have decided to start some serious screening.......
Probably because HR/Training themselves realized the "screening" was a freaking joke :D

[NAIA]

Why all this hate?

No hate - all love man. I've got this far without doing any of that psychobabble and have not crashed an aircraft yet. I always believed the best assesment of a pilots true potential was his logbook, but to be honest, this is just too funny to be true.

Anyone smart enough to pass “The Big Five”, (which is a highly respected test I might add) ;) , can''t be stupid enough to sign a 6-month back-of-the-fagpack contract flying for pennies through the shadiest of shady tax-loopholes? The one contradicts the other, and is worth a good laugh.

Quality costs, but these guys don't seem too bothered.

Pay low, hire the leftovers.
Pay high, pick and choose.

[ENSA]

some extracts from the new personality test:

1. In terms of job security and family planning, what type of employment would you prefer?
A) Call me when you need me
B) 6-month rolling contracts thorugh a third party which can be terminated at any time
C) Proper and defined employment with the actual airline you fly for.

5. Should social benefits and employee welfare ever stand in the way of corporate profits and shareholder gains?
A) Only if I or my immediate family members are shareholders in said company
B) Suck me dry and lube me up, I just wanna fly them jets.
C) Yes, there is a social responsibility that comes with running a human organization.

7. Do moving flight operations from one airport to another airport within the same city constitute a base closure?
A) Why would you do that?
B) Yes, of course it does. 2 new years of contracts, please!
C) No.

21. Have you ever been unable to perform your job as a pilot due sickness or other physiological or psychological reason?
A) Yes, but never for more than 5 days.
B) No, I'm too scared that I will lose my job.
C) Yes, there have been days where I felt my performance on the flight deck to be degraded to a point that would comprimise the safety and well being of my collegues and passengers by going to work.

32. What is the biggest direct threat to most European Airlines?
A) Euro crisis
B) Employee wages and social costs
C) Fuel costs

36. What do the words seniority and scope clause mean to you?
A) Long time to command
B) Barriers to a profitable, flexible international organization making it's shareholders very rich.
C) Instruments used to protect employees from being constantly undercut by cheap labour.

39. Would you be willing to accept substantially lower pay and conditions to jump ahead of all you collegues for a earlier command?
A) Not while there are people behind me on the list
B) Absolutely!
C) No.

68. Do you see a connection between the social benefits provided by the government and the taxes paid by the country's workforce?
A) I see loopholes
B) Nope.
C) Yes

103. Do you have any preference as to where you spend you free time?
A) Not as long as there's a bar around
B) Not as long as I can see my jet from the window
C) Yes, I have a family, friends and children whom I like very much and would like to be in the viscinity of when not at work

143. What.... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

A)This isn't a serious test, is it?
B)Air-speed velocity?
C) What do you mean? An African or European swallow?




Score 1 point for every A, 2 points for every B and -0- points for every C.

HR and OPS personnel have been trained to interpret these tests as follows:

1-3 points. Go away.
3-15 points. Come back later. We might get desperate.
16 points: Would you like a Direct-Entry Command

[Hank the F/C]

ENSA,
nothing short of brilliant:ok: It's funny cos it's true:E Or maybe it's sad, but what the hell I'm laughing my arse off:D

[Init-Refpage]

I´m developing temporary bulimia. :-)

I´l be damed if i`m gonna let you bitter guyes **** on my pride!! I have worked my ass off becoming what i am today! have worked for norwegian for 3 years now, and before that i worked in a small cargo airline flying turboprops. Before that i was sleeping in hangars in my sleeping bag just to log one flight hour!! That lifestyle made me a single man TWISE!!!
When i started working for Norwegian i earned that job!
So you just go ahead and make fun of it all, but me and my friends in the company has done what we can do for now..
One day, maybe reality will hit your life to.

By the way: Here`s a fresh can of "shut the **** up and stop judging before you know the fact"!! My treat!

I`m out once again!:ugh::ugh:

[berserker]

I wonder who`s bitter here?:)
Don`t get all fired up, if you dont see why people have a few critical questions then, well......
But then again, its no need for all the trash-talk on DY pilots behalf.
Actually met a couple of them at OSL yesterday, nice people:)
We are all in this **** together......
Oh, by the way Init: Did your company pay for your training and TR?
Worked your ass off to get where you are today or payed your ass off?

Jokes aside, supid argument anyhow. Lets get this forum back to the serious channel it once was:)

[de facto]

l be damed if i`m gonna let you bitter guyes **** on my pride!! I have worked my ass off becoming what i am today! have worked for norwegian for 3 years now, and before that i worked in a small cargo airline flying turboprops. Before that i was sleeping in hangars in my sleeping bag just to log one flight hour!

Sounds quite familiar:8...hope the TC will improve in a few years time so I can enjoy Scandinavian fresh air again:cool:

[AUTO/MAN]

**** on your pride Init-Ref? Seriously?
Worked your ass off to earn where you are today?
Buying isn't earning, ******* up relationships on the way to a bought seniority number isn't just sad, it's also immensely stupid.
Reality hit us just when people like you started to buy their way into the industry.
Every piss-take on your beloved organization where you as a group actually manage to make matters worse for all the rest of us in the Nordic region is validated.
You probably should stay out of the discussion (your treat), and please, for the sake of the professional pilots on this forum do not confuse your bruised (altough bought) ego with pilots who actually worked for and earned their position.
You and your friends who work/have worked for DY have done what you can for now. Please don't make any further attempts. We are all suffering from the results of your previous ambition to buy a job as it is.
Bitter? No, way to old for that.
Jealous? Hardly, hold to good a position to envy people who work five days in a row.
Worried? Hell yes! When prostitution is being confused with professional pride I worry.
Continue being a dame and make all your DY colleagues proud!

[Init-Refpage]

bought pride??

Do you now me man? How can you stupid ass be so fu/#/&# ing shure I bought anything?
go Fu... yourself you judgmental MTF!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Tally-ho1]

Easy guys, easy.....
The industry (aviation) is extremely pressed today, and thanks to the low cost companies, it's a rough ride for all. But we are all in the same boat, in some way.

But of course it would be great if the gentelmens (and ladies) in front row of Norwegian, Ryanair etc etc is taking some steps ahead to improve the escalating development. DY Union said ok to the boss, when he asked for two more years - for employment of pilots with noe securities, low salary, no insurance...
In HEL-base they have CA's with salaries down to 650 euro's a month. Extremely low, even much worse than FR, and of course all this put the Nordic industry under further pressure. But there is now reason to go crazy, better try to get some kind of communication between the groups...

Tally-Ho

[AUTO/MAN]

Since DY never gave away ratings I'm pretty sure you bought something along the way.
If you think that's something to be proud of go ahead and keep your pride...
Go f*** myself? Way to lazy for that, I let my wife and girlfriends take care of that ;-)
Relax, then come back with a couple of thought out points of how you and your peers are not f***in' up the industry?
"I don't now you man" you're right about that.
What I do know though after flying with way to many f/o's with your attitude is that usually sooner than later you end up in the ****.
The business is small, especially in the Nordic countries. The difference between the smarter young/new guys in the business compared to their not so successful peers is that they understand the concept of watching and learning with their mouth shut.
No one gives a **** about your hours in a hangar or other tough times because back in the days that's what most of us did, it used to be the norm that you had to earn your career progression, not buy it.

[viking767]

In HEL-base they have CA's with salaries down to 650 euro's a month. Extremely low, even much worse than FR, and of course all this put the Nordic industry under further pressure. But there is now reason to go crazy, better try to get some kind of communication between the groups...

Tally-Ho]


How can they afford to eat?
A couple of OSL layovers would almost take care of the whole months salary!
Wonder if they got any takers for the 787 spots in BKK? I hope not!

[Init-Refpage]

Dont hate the player, hate the game:ugh:

[Anderssone]

Can you live on a salary of 5100€? Can maybe somebody on the contract share som info? Thanks

[AUTO/MAN]

Don't play the game in a way that makes everyone hate the player.

[TowerDog]

In HEL-base they have CA's with salaries down to 650 euro's a month

Typo check...Surely ya mean 6,500.00 Euros per month?

650 won't buy ya much of anything in Helsinki except some shares of Nokia..:sad:

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Good one, Towerdog :ok: 6,500 euros would only be 1,500 euros less than a 787 captain in BKK for Norwegian :eek: In easyjet, the cabin crew get 500 euros pr. month netto pay as base salary in the Lisbon base. They may be able to make up to 500 euros in sector/flight pay. Not a nice industry anymore.

[LeftHeadingNorth]

As always it's supply and demand. There are pilots willing to accept the continuously lower standards imposed by the companies each and every day. Young guys and gals live with the assumption that being a pilot is a respected and fruitful profession where you will end up making a good bunch of money. Fact is, new joiners will never have the T&C the guys that have been in the industry for a few years have.

I am myself a pilot with Norwegian and I am lucky enough to be on the good side. I see new "colleagues" in the crew room every day who wears the same uniform and performs the same job but at much lower salary (i.e a ****ty contract). It is no fun. I don't like working in a company where there is an A-team and a B-team.

Many where hoping that the union in DY would stand fast and provide a revolutionary change to the contract-pilot-problem in Europe. Unfortunately it would seem that the reality is somewhat different than that. First of all, CEO Bjorn Kjos is a lawyer himself. He is an extremely tough player who knows this game inside and out. Secondly, it was not even clear that a strike would have been legal which in turn would have meant that had it been deemed illegal, the union would have had their ass sued over and over. BK made it very clear that he had the full right to transfer staff freely in the EU according to the 4 "freedoms" of the EU. Internal Market - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Market#Free_movement_of_people)

I believe the future of our profession lies in the legislation. Without proper employment laws and regulations regarding duty times etc we are more or less fukced. Union work must be based upon current legislations. Having many years left in this industry I many times wonder if I will ever wear my uniform with pride again or if I will continue to be that hated employee who costs a lot of money but coincidentally operates advance machinery during all hours of the day and night in adverse conditions under constant time pressure making sure that the every so less paying passengers arrives safely at their destinations...

[captplaystation]

As one of your new "Colleagues" I know exactly where you are coming from, and we appreciate that you tried. . . . a shame the legislation is on the side of the company . . . but no surprises there. Unfortunately, "money talks" :hmm:

[captplaystation]

PicMas,

To the list that you deride so readily you can add the elected & unelected politicians from your own country, & the EEC, who allow this to happen, because their big buddies in big business want it to.

Ryanair are seldom brought to task for this, indeed they now have a "detachment" :rolleyes: in Marseilles to replace the "base" they closed after the French insistence on social charges/contracts resulted in them closing the "base". . . see a difference ? nope, me neither. . blind French eye turned.

BK knows that similarly selective perception of his actions are guaranteed, which is why he does it, & why the Unions can't do too much. BKK base ? don't like it ? well if you make too much fuss I will move everything to an offshore AOC & take my money out of Norway. Threats to close bases has already been utilised (successfully) to bring permanent pilots to heel over certain matters, so lay off the "Contract pilots are bringing us down" bandwagon, we are not alone in reacting whilst mindful of our self interests.

This financial blackmail of Govts/Airports/Aircraft Manufacturers/Employees has already been proven to be devastatingly effective by O' Leary.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery & regretably the emphasis in DY has swung towards profit, with social "care" going down the list.
If you seriously think that me, or indeed any pilot, throwing our toys out of the pram & demanding better conditions will stop this march towards the bottom , you are deluded.
I have witnessed it 1st hand in FR, tried to resist it (Oh Yes I have believe me) & have seen no-one behind me to back me up, so Yes, whilst very appreciative of the Unions efforts, I will not sacrifice what is a competitive contract job on the altar of principles. Standing (principled) in the unemployment line will not pay the bills, & you, & all the other strident individuals on here would do the same thing if your circumstances demanded it.
Walk out (or refuse to enter) the door if you don't have (or get offered ) what you rightfully deserve, & enjoy the free time spent home contemplating how far your principals are advancing your career & the status of our profession.
Above all, be realistic in your expectations of how far you can advance a cause that many have been fighting for much longer than you have probably held a licence, & show a little humility & understanding of other individuals need to, & right to, work. We would all like better, but sometimes we have to concede there are battles we can't win & just accept the best that is available. Of course we should all stand together & try to slow the decline, but, how much any of us can achieve , either as individuals, or collectively, is severely hampered by legislation that is very company orientated leaving us fighting with one hand tied behind our back.

Levity & realism are an asset in this profession, both from a personal & professional perspective. You should contemplate developing some, lest you spend all your career bitter & angry. . . not good for you, nor indeed the ambience that you will bring to the flightdeck.

[trancada]

Well guys, from what i have been reading here, i think we can't compare Norwegian with Ryanair.

Ryanair is always polemic. Norwegian in my opinion is much more low profile. This company is growing on good steps, achieving good markets . They seem to be on good track.

I think what most of us wants know are : the working conditions, rosters and salaries, and etc...

[AUTO/MAN]

Conditions and rosters are what you are willing to pay for today, but be quick, there will always be an other idiot prepared to pay more than you tomorrow.

[172_driver]

I believe the future of our profession lies in the legislation. Without proper employment laws and regulations regarding duty times etc we are more or less fukced. Union work must be based upon current legislations. Having many years left in this industry I many times wonder if I will ever wear my uniform with pride again or if I will continue to be that hated employee who costs a lot of money but coincidentally operates advance machinery during all hours of the day and night in adverse conditions under constant time pressure making sure that the every so less paying passengers arrives safely at their destinations...

Voila!!

There is no excuse for being a gutless coward, afraid of taking a stand, and thats what you are when "employed" by Ryanair, Norwegian et al, gutless cowards!

See what happened to the poor Ryanair contract F/O's that tried to make a stand refusing to pay £29 (or something like that..?) for a Ryanair ID that became mandatory to work through Spain and Portugal. "Thanks - we don't need your services anymore" Was it worth loosing your job over £29???

Captplaystation and the likes got it right! The AUTO/MAN types are just narrow minded.

Supply & demand - their is always someone to sell themselves cheaper. That's why, IMHO, the unions should not target the airlines that are just playing the game. They should lobby for the European Union, like they've done with the new FTLs, to change the rules.

And, the general public has to understand you cannot fly to the canary islands for €10!!

[berserker]

Well, just heard what the poor MPL-guys that started at DY get paid during their training....
Anyone willing to take a guess??

[Icenor]

Det er vel ulønnet, som veldig mange andre praktikantstillinger. Ikke et unikt problem for luftfart.

Slik jeg har forstått det så har andre selskap som har hatt MPL-praktikanter blant annet inngått en avtale med fagforeningen sin om at det i utgangspunktet ble satt opp vanlige styrmenn på flightene. Så kunne de erstattes av en MPL-elev, mot at selskapet betalte styrmannen som ble satt av, det han ville tjent ved å fly selv.

[Guttn]

Berserker, ryktet vil ha det til at det er hele €1000 i måneden :eek::eek::eek::ugh: Men kanskje vi får vite det fra de det gjelder? Eller de som deler cockpit med dem?

[de facto]

Maybe thats what their experience is worth?
Theyll get more later..

[AUTO/MAN]

Narrow minded for thinking that all of you who buy jobs and are accepting crap contracts on top of paying for your ratings are c*nts?
Ok, let's call me narrow minded. I don't mind as long as I don't have to fly ****loads of sectors for no pay, constantly worrying about who I have to blow next to keep my contract without benefits or social security with the added bonus of European revenue offices getting really interested in what's going on.
All this just to be able to fly around under callsign"Whoreshuttle".
I'll be narrow minded any day!

[Mega]

This just saved may day, hilarius ENSA:D:D

[Albicilla]

Noen som plutselig får litt trangere økonomi?

Skatteetaten etterforsker piloter for skattesnusk - Aftenposten (http://www.aftenposten.no/okonomi/innland/Skatteetaten-etterforsker-piloter-for-skattesnusk-6969874.html)

[Anderssone]

how does it work with this per diem that you get. Is that independent on how much you fly, or can it get smaller if you don't fly that much one month?

Any new info on who pays taxes where? After 1 of july with the new rules about paying taxes on the base you have. Do you pay one tax in Spain and then the rest in your homecountry?

[captplaystation]

Per Diem is a fixed amount for Contractors, fly/no-fly. . . . very different scenario for permanent guys.

The new legislation concerns social charges, not taxes. AFAIK it applies from 1st June , but the door has been left wide open & anybody employed before this date can continue on the "old" system (social charges paid in Ireland for Ryanair) for 10 years before implementation is required.

New employees (or anyone changing "home base") are supposed to adhere to new legislation.

We have no definitive news on this thus far.

[nyhellesund]

ref. AUTO/MAN

I agree:D:D:D

[captplaystation]

AUTO/MAN. . . . I agree too, if, and only IF , you can offer a person starting now in this industry a viable alternative to kick.start his career.

As a "Contract Capt" in NAS you probably view me as somewhat lower than a Dog Dropping. . .but, I never paid for a Rating in my life. . . .however, I am not such a dumb old guy to say, were I 20 years old now, that I wouldn't.

Times change, for e v e r y t h i n g in life, as the dinosaurs (didn't) realise, adapt or face extinction.

I don't like it, but if you don't face it . . . . . . . . . :confused:


If you can find a job with Wideroe (or whatever) & avoid paying out, Congrats :D really , I say that with no malice, but in the current market , people can't sit home forever waiting for that chance in a thousand.

[AUTO/MAN]

The dinosaurs where extinct due to external factors, not because some lizards decided to buy dinosaur-uniforms and start chewing away on other dinosaurs so why don't we leave the dinosaurs out of the discussion ;)

Why should anyone starting their career be offered a kickstart? Work hard, earn your position with your abilities, not your wallet.
My terms and conditions just went down because they where compared to NAS.
Now why do you think NAS is cheap? Could it have anything to do with a bunch of c***s buying their positions and accepting dodgy foreign contracts helping NAS avoid their legal duties and taxes?

The common excuses are "I need to provide for... and "If I don't some one else will...".
I need to provide for my family as well, so you might be able to appreciate the lack of respect for your actions as they have a direct effect on me and every other pilot being compared with new norm for the industry you help to create.

I have nothing against you personally captainplaystation. How could I, I don't know you except for your posts here on Pprune?
That said I will do everything I can to fight what you are bringing in to the profession.
Especially the mindset that it should be accepted and that it should be ok for young dumbf**ks who just bought their license to think that they have the right to a job just because they can afford a typerating and that everybody ahead of them in the game should move over and accept what's offered because times change.

[berserker]

Well spoken, AUTO/MAN:D

[AUTO/MAN]

..and for all of you youngsters on brand new, bought contracts.
The only reason for you having a contract job today is that there still are relics like me and my colleagues fighting for contracts signed a long time ago. Contracts that the beancounters think are way to expensive in todays world and try to circumnavigate even though both senioritylists and payscales where invented by employers to make sure that skilled and expensively trained labour would stay inhouse.

The funny thing is that if the pilotcommunity worldwide would agree on becoming contractors overnight tonight, every beancounter,shareholder and contractor would be in the ****. Shoulderdeep for the longterm.

Why?

Because only experience would matter.
The only way to keep costs down (insurance etc.) would be to attract experienced pilots. The only way to attract experienced, current pilots is pay and benefits.
What would you bitch about then, when times change and you would have to adapt to the new order? Still no good jobs and experienced pilots picking 6-60 month contracts where and when the market forces dictate.
Be very careful what you wish for, newbies and management alike.

[nyhellesund]

Wise words again AUTO/MAN....:D

To bad there are to many "Daddy paying for TR" pilots out there.....:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[bfisk]

My terms and conditions just went down because they where compared to NAS.

move over and accept what's offered because times change.

So I guess you shouldn't have moved over and accepted the offer then. Something about stones and glass-houses.


(But in general, what WOW 84 said: let's keep focused on who's arguing with who, here. Pilots are fighting pilots while management is laughing all the way to the bank. What good does that do?)

[aloha1985]

Pilots are fighting pilots while management is laughing all the way to the bank. What good does that do?

True story.

[captplaystation]

If you want to see how well "Divide & Conquer" works, just visit the blue & yellow cockpit parked next to you. . . . . the answer is well, "too well".

[joflin]

My guess;

SEK 20 405:-/month ( or EUR 2450) i a w the swedish labour union's generic contracted minimum wage for transportation industry workers.

This is after social charges ( taken by the hiring agency), but before income tax ( typically 31%).

[AUTO/MAN]

nice synopsis there bfisk, how about quoting the whole post instead of picking words out of sentences?
the point was, and still is:
No respect. At all. For cun*s buying jobs.
When NAS started, most of the people employed bought a typerating. Nice. Especially for pilots in commuterairlines with good experience unwilling to buy their careerprogression.
NAS and B.K decided to move the goalposts for commands or newhires. Why not, all of you took the previous bait by paying for what employers normally do.
Now boys and girls in NAS are squeeling unfair like little pigs. "Unfair!?"
All you got is litterally what you paid for, in most cases with your own money.

Pilots where actually ready to fight for pilots. Most of the pilotunions in Scandinavia where gearing up their support when it was deemed unnessecary by the affected ones, since two years of prostitution appears to be ok before they change the rules again.

Don't confuse pilots fighting prostitutes with pilots fighting pilots.
We are not our own worst enemies, you are.

[Guttn]

10 years in business as a lo-co today. Congrats! What started out as a make or break back when SK bought BU has gradually moved to the front of the race to the bottom competition. Where it all files was right after making things work. This is when certain demands could have, and should have, been raised and met. Pay for your TR should have and could have been abolished back then, but it was all halleluja for excited employees who only focused on themselves and not seeing the big picture. Years gone by, and now the 1500 hour minimum experience lever for FOs has turned into MPLs right out of flightschool and crappy, dubious contracts while are under suspiscion by the authorities because not all pilots are seeing BK. as the great saviour. There was a great opportunity to set the record straight this spring, with a lot of unionized pilots throughout Europe willing to back them up, but BK played hardball for real (suspect there were serious threats against the unionized DY pilots), so they folded and agreed to even more dubious terms. Good one:ok: So what's next? How can BK make things even worse for pilots? He's done so much already:D! Here's a proposal; pay for commands!!! I hate to say it, but this is a case of what goes around, comes around:ugh::{:rolleyes:

[Tally-ho1]

Yes - there were so many pilots (unions) around willing to make a back up, if things went in the wrong direction in the negotiation between BK and the DY-Union.
It' a sad story, that the Union was so weak in the end...
I'm sure that all this will put a further pressure on all other in the industry, in Scandinavia, and also around...

Norwegian's management seems to go for the "Ryanair solution"... The only thing which could make an important change, is a course change inside the DY-pilot group and the union there. But at the moment we should not expect to much ...they are all splitted in to many groups, with different salaries, different social security, some with a union behind, some without....It's a sad story....

[BBJ King]

Another one bites the dust. For every resignation they get stronger. :ugh:

[Hank the F/C]

Another one bites the dust. For every resignation they get strongerThat makes no sense, what so ever, what you just wrote...
Are you implying that by not resigning and therefor accepting the sub-industry stadard Ts and Cs you are somehow making them (DY) weaker:confused:

[captplaystation]

Someone there 4 years is on a permanent contract, so if he leaves it is one less Union member. . . . so can't fault BBJ Kings logic in that respect.

[Hank the F/C]

OK, that would then make some sort of sense even though I would not blame a man who resigns a permanent contract for a better one, of weakening the union, I would in that case blame the guy that comes after him....

[captplaystation]

Don't blame the guy who comes after him. . . we all need to eat :rolleyes: blame the Union who, despite having the support of their members & numerous other airlines in the region, allowed themselves to be bullied into accepting a "compromise" that may not help their members nor the contractors, possibly simply because they didn't do their "homework" before tackling NAS & the Boss (who they possibly forgot was a Barrister in a previous life)
When Unions are so unprofessional/poorly prepared it makes it Oh so easy for companies to walk all over their members.
Seen it before with BALPA (not IALPA however) in Ryanair, now I have observed it (albeit from the sidelines, some would say on the "wrong" side) in NAS.
P*ss poor planning = P*ss poor performance, it's a walk in the park for most management ,courtesy of the lack of credible opposition.
Backing down doesn't enhance ones credibility much either.

[Diper]

Ser ut som kabinforeningen i Lufthansa er de med størst "baller".
De krevde å være ansatt i Lufthansa. Det kostet men ga frukter.

[Guttn]

Ulmer visst fortsatt blant pilotene. I nettavisene rapporteres det idag om at NPF tar DY til sak :D
Informasjonssjefen deres (DYs) sier at det er best for alle parter at de blir enige på kammerset (re utenfor rettsapparatet). Vet ikke hvordan det høres ut for andre, men i mine ører er det ikke akkurat en invitasjon til en hyggelig prat over en kopp kaffe... :mad::ugh:

[Wiskey]

Det tok ikke lang tid før "Schibsted-sensuren" fjernet denne artikkelen fra VG-nett....

[DR1974]

Artiklen ligger der stadigvæk: Norwegian-piloter vil ta vikarstriden til retten - VG Nett om Reise (http://www.vg.no/reise/artikkel.php?artid=10068714)

[trancada]

Any news how the things running between the union and the company?

[captplaystation]

Badly . . . . . .

[nyhellesund]

Bad for WHO?

Bad for Bjorn Kjos......Good

Bad for the Union......Sad, but might be expected due to history...:(

[Diper]

Så får vi se om kabinforeningen i Norwegian har baller. De krever riktignok kun samme "policyerklæring om stillingsgaranti" som pilotene. Den er i seg selv ikke mye verdt, men ledelsen vil altså ikke gi dem dette.:ugh:

[captplaystation]

Agreed, but the thing I don't understand about F*cking Unions (and we really suffered in Ryanair courtesy of the Irish & UK pilots Union's - IALPA & BALPA's - inability to act together) is why these highly paid "activists " (Ha Bloody Ha) couldn't coordinate something between them in the Springtime & really nail this. As Lufthansa proved (& BA) CC are more than enough, so why the **** couldn't the pilots & CC Unions get their act "together" 6 mths ago ? to ALL of our benefit

I say this as a Contractor, who is now being implored by the Union to sign up & put my name down for legal action to demand permanent employment from NAS (but no NAS employment & no employment in Norway = what ? zero protection ? ) who they previously thought was the "bad guy", but, in fact, I want the same as everyone else.

So, why the hell they (pilot & CC union ) couldn't coordinate & do something decisive 6 mths ago, when they had all the support of NAS pilots ( & CC?) & indeed most pilots in Scandinavia I am told.

Yeah yeah, I am only a stupid contractor, so why don't I get my name in Court fighting the battle that you managed to lose 6mths ago :ugh: Jeezuz guys, is that the best we can expect from a Union ? :(

[aozc]

Captplaystation, the strike would not have been legal. Kjos is a very good lawyer and the lawsuits following the illegal strikes would have been nasty.

He found a good way around it and few options remained, alot of people are accepting the below crap T&C so the carouselle towards the bottom is still going strong.

The people on the permanent contracts are looking out for themselves, the contractors in their turn are blaming them and the union to justify themselves.

A strong union is not a given right, it's the opposite, it is what YOU make it. Arguing and blaming like this only serves one man, and one wallet.

Divide et impara. I'm going back to uni next autumn... so I can fly for peanuts, as a passanger :E

[Goldenbawls]

I say this as a Contractor, who is now being implored by the Union to sign up & put my name down for legal action to demand permanent employment from NAS (but no NAS employment & no employment in Norway = what ? zero protection ? ) who they previously thought was the "bad guy", but, in fact, I want the same as everyone else.

So you want to reap all the benefits of an employment with DY without putting anything on the line yourself? This sort of egocentric selfishness is how this industry got into a s**thole in the first place.

[KristianNorway]

Captplaystation, the strike would not have been legal. Kjos is a very good lawyer and the lawsuits following the illegal strikes would have been nasty.

Can you guys on the inside tell me why this wouldn't have been legal? I still haven't seen any concise information regarding the process from NPF. Is it illegal to strike for the benefit of a third party? That legal standing should be covered if only a few contractors were part of NPF. The law states nothing about a unions lack of right to represent a collegial minority.

So you want to reap all the benefits of an employment with DY without putting anything on the line yourself? This sort of egocentric selfishness is how this industry got into a s**thole in the first place.

I like the contracting tendency as little as anyone else. In fact I see it as a huge threat to my future in this business, and I'm poised to be here the next thirty years. Don't go for each others throats. Understand that contractors have no (!) legal protection. None. To ask them to stick their neck out is something completely different than asking regular employees. This is a union fight and a fight that has to come from directly employed pilots and NPF.

[Cautious]

AOZC?


Not legal, please explain?


It would have been the only time it by labor dispute law of the country could have been legal. The collective agreement had expired, negotiations had started, and failed. Golden window of opportunity. All that remained was to inform the official negotiator, Riksmegleren, that they were proceeding with next step, a conflict. Wait 14 days and set park brakes.


They talked the talk, but when it came time to do the walk, they backed down, repeatedly. Every one saw that this for what it was; the last chance for course change and a better future. And they were not alone, they would have been backed all the way necessary:
http://flyger.no/arkiv/filer/Pressemelding%20fra%20Norsk%20Flygerforbund.pdf (http://flyger.no/arkiv/filer/Pressemelding%20fra%20Norsk%20Flygerforbund.pdf)


Sure Kjos made noise, and could have disputed the unions right to make various claims. Scope clauses are part of labour contracts of other unions. Won the hard way at some time in the past.

But right and wrong is also a result of power. Stand your ground and do not back down. Once a new agreement is signed and the planes are moving again no one will argue about legalities anymore. Threats would have lost theire value once the planes came to a standstill and share prises started moving instead.


Union leaders with stock options in own company?

But then again, I might be misinformed. If so please explain?

Status last may was full suport. That window they closed themselves:



European Cockpit Association AISBL Rue du Commerce 20-22, 1000 Brussels, Belgium I T +32 2 705 32 93 I F +32 2 705 08 77 I [email protected] I Homepage | European Cockpit Association (ECA) (http://www.eurocockpit.be)

Brussels, 8 May 2012
Captain Aleksander Wasland Captain Sami Simonen
President, Norsk Flygerforbund President, Finnish Pilots’ Association
[email protected] [email protected]
Captain Lars Björking Captain Hafsteinn Pálsson
President, Danish ALPA President, Icelandic Pilots’ Association
[email protected] [email protected]
Captain Gunnar Mandahl Captain Rauno Menning
President, Svensk Pilotförening President, Estonian ALPA
[email protected] [email protected]
Re : ECA Support to Nordic Pilot Associations’ joint statement against the exploitation of airline workers.
Dear Presidents,
The European Cockpit Association represents over 38.650 pilots in 38 European Countries including the pilots from your countries, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Estonia, Finland and Iceland. ECA welcomes the joint statement your 6 Associations have released on the condemnation of airlines’ pushing for workers’ exploitation through the use of ‘inventive’ contractual arrangements.
ECA and its Members are very concerned by the turn the airline industry is taking in Europe, by outsourcing pilots’ services through individual contracts which deny them fundamental labour rights, promote social dumping and unfair competition, and can compromise flight safety levels for passengers.
As accurately described in your analysis, one of the biggest threats posed by this process is the ‘externalisation’ of the Airlines’ own responsibility to the individual pilot. The precariousness of such individual contracts, together with the pressure put on pilots by the airline to minimise operational costs, compromises the pilots’ effective ability to take appropriate decisions solely based on safety concerns.

[truckflyer]

Tilbake til tema om jobb informasjon, litt tredd avvik her, eller?

Er det noen som vet hva som er planene for NAS angaaende Airbus NEO de har bestilt?

[trancada]

As you say truckflyer, for some us we would like to know the topic of the job information, and future plans.

Until now nobody expressed salaries in this company and working conditions, like rostering and benefits.

A320NEO is planned on 2014.

[truckflyer]

Yes seems like a battle of doom here, I do understand the concern fully.

But I heard 2015 / 2016 on the NEO, but also heard various rumours, of NAS plans, but I would like to know maybe somebody working in the company would know?

[nyhellesund]

Some information.....Norwegian and Ryanair are very pleased that
there are so many :yuk::yuk::yuk: that would like work for them.....

(I will probably soon hear that "I need to put food on the table" reason)

I hope NO Majors will hire from these companies. Then the problem will be solved.
If you go the low-cost way, always low-cost.....

[truckflyer]

And who do you call majors? " nyhellesund"

SAS - a government run company, who unless they had public funds would have gone done the drain long time ago!

The world is a chain of various tiers, you have the bottom, the lower level, the medium level, the upper medium level and the top level!

Even in the bad companies I have seen people be happy, all is relative!

Some do not always appreciate how good they have it, until it is gone! I am not supporting Norwegian or any other such company, however it is a part of life, and yes some of us have to put food on the table, not everybody live in a country where the government will give you a small fortune if you do not have a job!

Norway is a priviliged country to live in, in other countries if you come on hard times, eg. in the UK, you can hardly survive on what benefits you get if you loose your job etc.
Sure it is not fair, it is not right all that is going on, however if the alternative is NO airline, NO Norwegian, how many more unemployed pilots would be out there fighting for the few jobs around!

Let's face it, SAS will have major recruitment problems soon, as their pilots are very old, they will be receiving enormous pensions, that was created in a decade when the company had a communistic monopoly on the Scandinavien market!
SAS will be saddled with enormous debts, and will not be able to operate on anything close to what they might have forecasted half a decade ago!

I am not sure who some of you guys are, and it is very clear many of you have lost touch with reality, living in a fantasy land for fairies and believing Peter Pan is going to come and put some magic spell on the whole world of aviation!

Lost touch of reality, in the sense that, it is different times since many of you got your first pilot job! You are blind of what is going on down there, in the start of todays pilot career!
You might want people to do it all the old way, however today who wants to spend 10.000 Euro for Flight Instructor Course, when first you can hardly get a job, and if you get a job, you hardly have enough money to get food for your cat, never mind if you have wife or children!!!

Sure it is NOT a perfect world, maybe some of you have forgot how the bottom of the pilot career ladder feels!
It's different than the SAS model, where they recruited first all Air Force pilots, than they recruited all the children of the pilots working for the company and so on!
I know of guys with thousands of hours, who for many years never got a chance with SAS, because there was no recruitment going on!

This is not a healthy environment, there has to be some movement, change, refreshing! Now Norwegian are about to knock out SAS in European domination of the scandinavien market, they are working within the framework of the EU and EEA laws/regulations!

I know in Scandinavia, we tend to be anti anything progressive, anything that is PRIVATE, an enterprise, Norway love to tax any company to death with all kinds of fees and taxes etc +++

This topic was about job info present and future at NAS, but has been hi-jacked by some wannabe people who want to promote their own agenda! Why not make an own thread about how bad the company is treating you, and how bad you conditions are, because at the moment I could not care less on this thread, on another thread about that topic, I would express my views about such issues, but this is NOT what this thread is about!

Reminds me of a bunch of Norwegians bing drinking on Saturday night, they have to get involved with everybody and everything, instead of just mind their own business!

And if you think it is so damn awful with Norwegian, there are few other companies you can try, where you will think working for NAS is like working for BA !

So anybody know about the plans for the Airbus Neo? :ugh:

[LeftHeadingNorth]

As a pilot in Norwegian, here is some (lack) of information:

Norwegian is run by the same guys who started the operation back in -93. These guys run their own show and do things their own way (if it's good or bad I will leave unsaid). The company does suffer from the extremely rapid growth it has enjoyed during the last years. This shows, for example, in the sometimes very unorganized way the company recruits and the constant lack of answers to the ever so many rising questions. The last year or so we have also seen a sharp shift when it comes to recruitment policies and the very anti-permanent contract views showed by the top guys.

When talking about the future in Norwegian it is extremely difficult to foresee anything. The company is very dynamic and there are multiple variables to take into account. The pilot union is currently bringing the company to court for breach of contract and the cabin union is threatening to go on strike on the 10th of Oct, to mention a few.

So when it comes to the Airbus neo I'm very doubtful that even mr Bjorn Kjos himself knows what it is planned for. One rumor is that it will be used as a feeder in Thailand for the long haul operation. That rumor has, however, about as much certainty as the Euro has right now....

When talking about Norwegian you should remember a few things. There is no detailed grand plan. The info given is constantly changing and the guys working within the company know probably less about the future of company than you guys on this forum. The best way to find out about plans for the Airbus will be to stay in touch with the contract agencies where job opportunities will undoubtedly be posted first... :ouch:

Other than that, as a permanent guy I'm happy in the company. I enjoy all the good **** most other guys can only dream about these days. This includes: LoL, pension, insurances, competitive pay and a 5/4 roster. Now, if only this could be the standard for our long lost profession....:sad:

Edit: spelling

[Moonwalker]

haha would be funny if Kjos actually had no plans for the NEO...:ugh: says a lot about DY's future in that case. In todays competitive market regardless of what you do you need to have a plan and a strategy. Of course you could be lucky and your competitors go bust before yourself, but in todays environment with Ryan and Easy around, unlikely.

[Init-Refpage]

The NEO will NEVER be painted in Norwegian colors! Thats my guess! he only bought those planes to force a better deal with Boeing and to dry out the market for med. jets. The next thing we will se is a leasing company under Norwegian.

[captplaystation]

Totally agreed, there is unlikely to be any "Red Nosed" Airbus.
It does not make sense for a LoCo to have a mixed fleet for any number of reasons.
To the Thai feeder rumour I can also add one doing the rounds about many senior NAS management seen visiting Vueling on occasions ,& a possible link/tie-in with them to feed traffic into a Spanish long-haul hub. Anyone familiar with T's &C's in Vueling will not rejoice at this news.

The visit I am assured is apparently fact, the rest of course is merely speculation.

[truckflyer]

An order of 100 Neo, is a significant number, with regards to the mixed fleet issue. Would not really be a major problem as far as I can see it.

But also what I had heard was that be leased out, not exactly sure how that would work out though. 100 Neo is a lot of aircraft, however I have not been able to find information of over how long period this order is estimated.

[captplaystation]

Aircraft goes tech ? great we have a spare, OK, but what if you have a Standby Boeing crew & only a spare Airbus.
Spares holding ? doubled, paperwork & training staff ? doubled.

In case of tech probs, in all likelihood the two types do not have the same number of seats/payload available.

Cpmplexity with no synergy. Sure, you "may" get a better price playing the two manufacturers off against each other, but, how come the lowest coat airlines (Ryanair/Easy Jet/ Wizzair) stuck with one type if there were any advantage to be had by mixing ?
Maybe they want to expand SO quickly that one manufacturer couldn't sate their needs, given that they take 13 airframes only in 2012 don't think that is it either.
Maybe hedging their bets in case the launch of either one is significantly delayed ? that would make a little sense, but finally, I just don't think these aircraft are destined for Norwegian Air Shuttle. . . maybe Norwegian ____? _____ ? but not, methinks, NAS.

[KristianNorway]

This discussion has no end..
The discussion about terms and conditions in this business boils down to principles about supply and demand and weak unions. Unions are there to (amongst other things) stop people from accepting ever weakening T&C's and compete by being cheaper. This is especially true in a climate with a higher supply of pilots than demand. This stabilizes the employment model. When now companies circumnavigate this by bypassing unions this protection is taken away, and we hear the "put the food on the table"-argument from pilots accepting lower standards of living to be able to work. Pilots willing to do this were also around before. It's nothing new. But earlier, this willingness to make oneself more attractive to the employer and stockholders by being cheaper wasn't taken into account. You were employed on the basis of other criteria and not on how low wage you could accept.
And this will only continue downwards as long as the unions are taken out of the equation..
We need unionization on a grander scale to create a counterweight to the power of the companies. I would be really happy to see this happen, but experience until now gives me a rather bleak perspective..

[inner]

Hi

Whats the deal now there? Are they still recruiting non type rated people? Before the summer i applied and i got a form back which i had to fill in, but so far, without any outcome.

[niss]

The deal is getting worse.
12 variable days off.
Leave pr. Company standard. WTF is that??
Social tax in Spain.
New hires in LPA.

[captplaystation]

The dispute has escalated. . . . HEL base is now to be transferred to "Norwegian Long Haul" so, forget about permanent positions when the base reaches 2 years old as NPF have no dog in that fight (Norwegian Long Haul)

For sure AGP & LPA next, and there is a rumour of fishy goings-on in prospect for CPH. The company are on the way to defeating the Union by moving everything lock-stock & barrel onto another AOC

Adios NAS, Ola NLH , and it gives me no pleasure to say this.

I guess this was an inevitable development, difficult to know how the Unions will effectively react to this one, not much they can do about transfering the operation bit by bit from one AOC to another . . or is there ?


Edited to say, OSL CC are supposed to be going on strike within 1 week, company reaction so far has been to tell them to continue working or face mass dismissal & closing of parts of the operation . . . . . . funny, I thought Ryanair colours were Blue & Yellow.

[nyhellesund]

I guess it is getting worse....

So, truckflyer and alot of you:yuk::yuk::yuk:.

How LOW will YOU go to fly the Airbus 320/B 737 ??

Do you need to get paid?
Do you need time with your family?
Do you need healthcare?
Do you need job security?
....list goes on.

For some of you I guess it does not matter....

[truckflyer]

Of course I am not happy with this situation, of course we want it all. It's not about how low, some of us have already have to go MUCH lower than conditions of Norwegian.
So low that even crappy Norwegian conditions, are like an oasis of heaven in comparison!

It all depends, I did not have a daddy who got me into SAS!
Or have the chance to get into Norwegian in the "good old days"

Now it is a few things that is clear, how much can you squeeze, are you willing to squeeze, how do you find the balance of what you want and what you can get, without the company folding?

If Norwegian can expand, this is "good" news, but at what cost do they expand, this is the question!
I do not have a crystal ball, and the fact is, as long as they compete with SAS, they have to constantly undercut them, if SAS one day folds, than that would give Norwegian a stronghold on the Scandinavien market, would this be positive or negative, it's hard to predict.

One thing that is clear, is that the public have chosen with their wallet, and it is not the best option for all, specially the pilots!

Was it a lack of organizing in the union, you can not stop a company to decide it's own business strategy, how they wish to operate!

We all have to adapt, to what is in front of us, and hope for the best! I guess everybody in this business looks out for themselves at the moment, who knows who might be the next Spanair!

[Cloudius]

Truckflyer:
It all depends, I did not have a daddy who got me into SAS!

Just for the record:
No family or acquaintances would get you into SAS. That`s the DY way of doing it.

[berserker]

Truckflyer: some of us have already have to go MUCH lower than conditions of Norwegian.

You dont HAVE to do anything, you can always say no, or do you say yes to any T and C´s as long as you get to fly?

[Hank the F/C]

So if we are to believe Cpt PS most of DY assets are going to end up in the newly formed Long Haul company. Well I for one is not surprised after seeing what the Bear is capable of after the FlyNordic takeover a few years back.
That AGP, HEL, LPA and future bases like LGW? PMI? ALC? will end up in Norwegian Long Haul A/S is a given, but does he have the stones to go after OSL and ARN? I think he has...

[truckflyer]

Cloudius - Well of course nobody got hired for years! However in the past I knew loads of father / son people employed by SAS, ok maybe not LOADS, but enough to raise my suspicion of their past hiring policies!

They also got themselves into a lost generation of pilots, as they simply have not hired anybody! Who would go to them, with no hope of command upgrade in the near future?

And "berserker" - if only things was that simple! Maybe the industry is built on an illusion, maybe conditions are gradually getting worse year by year, but for people who are "new" in the industry, we do want to believe we have to serve some kind of apprenticeship in the start, where we have to accept bad T & C's, to gain experience, and hopefully be able to progress with our career in a company with better conditions in the future!

If given a chance with low experience, I can understand and accept that people have less than ideal T & C's.

To use an example from a friend of mine, he works his socks of every month, after deduction of his training fees he is left with 800 - 900 Euros a month,(70 - 90 hours a month), than he is told to take 2 - 3 weeks unpaid Christmas vacation!

Now put this into perspective with the problems people are facing at NAS, and see for one it could be much worse! And with Operators like this out there, people will happily jump to "upgrade" their T & C's with NAS, even though for some these are also bad.

Also is relative to the eye of the beholder! Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with what NAS pilots want, but to see there are another group in the same profession, that are treated relatively worse, is not helping the industry.

Of course, we are all free to say yes or no, but after spending XXX thousands in training, and you get offered ANY job in todays market, what will you do? Say no, and continue working at REMA 1000 or RIMI, until some company will offer you the golden goose?

[Cloudius]

Truckflyer:

Cloudius - Well of course nobody got hired for years! However in the past I knew loads of father / son people employed by SAS, ok maybe not LOADS, but enough to raise my suspicion of their past hiring policies!

Of those I know, more than 50% got a no from SAS, so I guess their relations and acquaintances didnt help them much.
(In DY on the other hand, you really had to have some people on the inside putting in a recommendation).

And from what I know of the recruiting procedures, I genuinely believe that there is no reason to fear any unfair selection.

They also got themselves into a lost generation of pilots, as they simply have not hired anybody! Who would go to them, with no hope of command upgrade in the near future?

This I have not opposed to. However, that might change. I guess the outcome of SAS is two sided. Either the company goes belly up or the tide and restruction makes things happen very fast in terms of hire and upgrade.

We will just have to wait and see.

[berserker]

Of course, we are all free to say yes or no, but after spending XXX thousands in training, and you get offered ANY job in todays market, what will you do? Say no, and continue working at REMA 1000 or RIMI, until some company will offer you the golden goose?

I know several people who turned down ****ty contracts with no other job on hand, but at least they had the pride and balls to say no to something that will continue to lower the terms for their own profession.
I understand you are desperate to fly those big shiny jets, but there are other options out there......

[truckflyer]

berserker - Not every country has as good social services / unemployment benefits as Norway or Scandinavia!

So sometimes turning down a job in one of those Big Shiny Jets, is not always the best option!

Not really understanding your view, would like to see who have turned down a job with ****ty conditions, with low experience!

[KristianNorway]

Christ.. this is really happening way too fast. You need to look to most of the business when it comes to T&Cs and not only to Ryanair (which I expect you were referring to..). Of course it's not like the good old days any more, but this expansion of Norwegian has to be stopped when it's on the basis of contracts with contract agencies. NPF needs to stop this right now. They accepted new terms on the basis of trust, but management obviously regards those contractual obligations as something to legally circumvent. Don't listen to them when they say it's going to destroy the company. It isn't. If Bjørn Kjos throws his chair and says he will sell the company, so what? Does it matter if it is him or any other owner on the top as long as you have respectable T&Cs? It will halter expansion, since expansion in this climate requires lower prices, but so what? It's better to sit in a company an extra five years as a first officer when it's on a sound basis and healthy employment standards than to be a captain of a shipwreck going down. If nothing is done this will destroy all our futures. And it's happening right now. Contracting agencies as a industry standard coupled with the new subpart Q legislation is in my opinion a severe safety risk, and an unscientific working model based only to serve stock owners holding airline stocks. When this happens I will not only end my career as a professional pilot, I will stop flying altogether until this business is based on sound principles again.

[truckflyer]

I am curious on one thing, how can a pilot be contracted with ONE company only?

I thought that there was some legislation to be legally self-employed you would have to work for several different contractors, not just one sole company, as this would put you in a position an an employee!

I am curious how the airlines have been able to circumvent this regulation?


As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:

Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:

Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?



HM Revenue & Customs: Employment status (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm)


I know Norway have similar legislation.

I guess the ONLY ones who can stop this, is the local governments, can put a STOP to the contracting of pilots, as they do NOT meet the criteria to be Self-Employed!

The companies are doing this to circumvent huge local taxes!

[nyhellesund]

"and hopefully be able to progress with our career in a company with better conditions in the future!"

This is cannibalism...As I said in a previous post, I think it`s VERY inportant that the Unions for the Majors stop these people.

If you choose the ":yuk::yuk::yuk: low-cost" route, always ":yuk::yuk::yuk: low-cost".

[aozc]

"and hopefully be able to progress with our career in a company with better conditions in the future!"

The route used to be this way and then get a foot in to DY or SK. But now that route leads to sub-RYR standards :D

[PropsAreForBoats]

This will sort itself out. The lowcosts are killing the majors, or bringing them down to their level. So the irony is - you are killing the very companies you hope to progress to.

[LeftHeadingNorth]

Picmas, although I principally agree with you I find your argument fundamentally flawed. It is not reasonable to expect that a new pilot will take a stand against the current system refusing to buy a type rating in order to support the traditional way of progressing. Your opinion that pilots should avoid buying a rating and doing it the "old fashioned" way is simply wishful thinking. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first one to sign up should this be possible to implement. For this to happen ALL pilots need to stand together and refuse the current system. Again, this is an utopia and will simply not happen. I do admire you and your likes though who have managed to climb the ladder without buying your way into the industry! Unfortunately you are an ever shrinking minority...

I believe the problem not to be the pilots as such but rather the structure in Europe and the qualifications needed to fly one of those shiny jets. Fact is that an MPL student with 200h (of which most is sim time) is allowed to fly a B737/A320 straight out of school. Is this possible in the states? No it is not. The EASA/JAR etc is a deeply corrupt system enabling air carriers to exploit pilots to the very fullest. Until we get LEGAL REQUIREMENTS that value ACTUAL FLIGHT EXPERIENCE we are all more or less fukced. I find the debate "I detest you for buying yourself into the industry vs I need to feed my family and can't get a decent job if I don't buy a rating" to be utterly pointless and contra productive. The cuture/system defines the framework of what your "career ladder" will look like. Let's look at the states and more particular at Southwest. Undoubtedly the most successful low cost carrier in the world and a true example of a company caring for its employees. They require some 1000h PIC before even being eligible to apply for an F/O position. This true for most (if not all) carriers in the US. I similar system in Europe would completely annihilate the current problem with rating inflation.

So how do we achieve this? We wait. The governing factor is the passengers and their willingness to pay a decent amount of money for their ticket. Until we have a really deadly crash similar to Colgan air Colgan Air Flight 3407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407) nothing will happen. People need to pay with their lives in order for change to occur. This is also true regarding to the new FTL regulations (Which are of course indirectly made by the companies).

To sum up: Until we get a proper frame work based on legal regulations young guys and gals will continue to do what it takes to get a job. This includes getting exploited by the companies to the very fullest...

[nyhellesund]

I agree 100% with PicMas:D

[nyhellesund]

I also agree with LeftHeadingNorth.

Southwest is a very well driven Low-Cost airline, that takes care of their employees.
Big differences between Low-Cost:E

[KristianNorway]

Good to hear some sense here. Stop quarreling. As noted earlier, people willing to work in a cockpit for far less than what is industry standard have always been here. Always. They have just never had the opportunity to enter into service based on their willingness to work for lesser pay than their competition.
As was touched upon earlier "the old fashioned way" stopped this from happening. In other words they are not the problem. They are a symptom of the problem we're all facing.

It's not all about supply and demand either. Of course we're too many pilots, but that wouldn't be a big problems if we had effective unions. Then only the best of applicants would get any given job when the number of applicants rises. When you have an excess supply of pilots and you take away unions to open up for pilots bidding below each other of course you will have a downward spiral.

What is needed right (!) now is that NPF goes on a huge strike. The greater part of Norwegian is still organised in unions, and NPF could pressure Norwegian enough to make sure employees were not transferred to NLH. Norwegians margins are extremely thin (earnings less than 1% of total revenue) and management can't afford a stop of cashflow for long. This gives NPF leverage, and should be used to stop this development as soon as possible. If NPF waits too long the chance will be gone, with a greater amount of pilots now in an organisation that gives no power to unions. Then the organisation will look just like Ryanair. Pressure NPF, don't go after each others throats. Learn from what happened in Ryanair before it's too late.

[Guttn]

LeftHeadingNorth is spot on! :D There are 3 issues in European aviation that need to be delt with, the way I see things.. First of all, there is a great need for better legislation from EASA on several matters (SSTRs, P2F, FTLs). Without legislation, the MOLs and BKs of the industry can basically say "bend over" to fly for us. :sad::= Secondly, there is no real way for newbies to gain real world hands on experience in Europe. There are practically no small operators who employ no-timers, as well there are almost no flightschools for the instructor route. Compared to the US anyhow. Third, we, the pilots with descent jobs and are "protected" by ECA, iFALPA etc, need to put more pressure on the EASA and make them change their legislations for the better. A downward spiral indeed, and newbies, with a push from their flightschools, defend buying into commercial aviation with false information. You can't really fault them because they know no better and are clearly misguided. At the same time, it is the practise of buying a TR and/or hours commercially, is largely to blame. Stand together indeed, and we were so close last spring. There were approximately 38000 unionized pilots willing to back NPF for the greater benefit in the long term, but NPF blew it. When the next confrontation comes knocking, I wouldn't be surpised if they won't get the same benefit.

[Blue06]

Jeg kjenner mange RYR flygere som vet akkurat hva de kom til, liten erfaring og fikk en god utdannelse hos RYR, og om sommeren saa er lonna noksaa god ogsaa! De fleste drar etter 2 - 3 aar videre til bedre selskap - proven concept!

På tide å få bort skylappene! Det er jo nettopp dette som ødelegger de "bedre"!
For å klare å konkurrere må også "major's" sette ned lønninger og ansette på kontrakt og snart finnes det ingen veier til "bedre selskap".

"Proven cocept" sier du - ikke nå lenger, sier jeg... hvorfor?
Se på FR vs DY. Tidligere betalte man seg inn i FR for å stikke til DY etter noen år. Fra å faktisk "få en jobb" i DY måtte man der også begynne å betale seg inn. Nå er ikke det nok og DY må ansette på kontakter med elendige vilkår. Flere fra FR har sagt nei til DYs dårlige betingelser i det siste, og må være i FR enn så lenge. :D :D
Denne tankegangen har altså klart å ødelegge vilkårene i DY. Og flere selskaper kommer etter...

PS, at "lønnen i FR er nokså god på sommeren"; var det et forsøk på å være morsom, eller er holdningene virkelig på et slikt lavmål?

Hilsen meg :E

[EngineOut]

This will sort itself out. The lowcosts are killing the majors, or bringing them down to their level. So the irony is - you are killing the very companies you hope to progress to.

I take my hat off for the best comment on pprune for a long time.

[Hotel Charlie]

Man, what a **** load of crock :yuk:

Either You, "Truckdriver" are very young (hope for your sake that is the reason) or very ignorant!
I'm not gonna start writing a long post here, cause it's all been said better by others already. You should take notes from several of them. Here is just one example:
På tide å få bort skylappene! Det er jo nettopp dette som ødelegger de "bedre"!
For å klare å konkurrere må også "major's" sette ned lønninger og ansette på kontrakt og snart finnes det ingen veier til "bedre selskap".

[EngineOut]

Why did not the current Pilots look after the conditions for new recruits?
Was it, yes we ok, screw the newcomers mentality

I would like to think it was not like that! You can hardly blame the newcomers for what current pilots accepted!

So what's your personal plan in a few years when I offer to take your job for half the pay? Will you do the right thing and vote with your feet or will you blame me for lowering T&C's?

[Fadec Off]

Thanks guys :D This has been the most entertaining thread for a long long time... :} Usually you find that kind of fanaticism only among the worshippers of middle-eastern religions.
I wish you could make the difference in todays aviation industry, but I' am afraid that it is not possible. Not even if you all walk out of your jobs together and hand in hand demanding what you want. It is not likely to happen nor it would change anything.

[Hotel Charlie]

I wish you could make the difference in todays aviation industry, but I' am afraid that it is not possible. Not even if you all walk out of your jobs together and hand in hand demanding what you want. It is not likely to happen nor it would change anything.
.... you really sure about that? :ooh:

[Fadec Off]

Hotel Charlie, Yes I am sure about my opinion. I see it impossible to unions or individual members to make any change using old fashioned way, "with us or against".
In my opinion, the only chance is if the audience and governing authorities demand for change. The change might be achieved by affecting those people, customers and officials. When they feel loosing something, money for example, they could help steering the ship.
Unfortunately customers value low prices over pilots lifestyle and authorities are greatly affected by industry.
One should never give up, but one should also look for alternative paths instead. Good luck.

[Blue06]

What's your stand on this (brilliant) statement? This will sort itself out. The lowcosts are killing the majors, or bringing them down to their level. So the irony is - you are killing the very companies you hope to progress to.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you are working for a major, why would you be worried? Unless of cause it is SAS, than I would be very worried, as they prospects are not the best!
How many times do we have to tell you; EVERY airline, will(sooner or later), be forced to lower their T&C in order to be competitive with the LCC.

You talk a lot about being united. How are we supposed to manage that when there's always someone "on the outside" willing to take my job for 1/5 of my pay?


One comment said NAS, would be crippled by a long strike, so if this is correct, where are they going to get the extra money to improve TCs from?
Raise the prices. Sure, some passengers will stop flying and there might be cutbacks also in DY. That's perfectly fine.
I will not work for peanuts so every kid with a "rich daddy syndrome" can pay their way into the cockpit. You're not entitled to get a job just because you have a pilots license. If 43 is your correct age, I'm sure you remember the 90's, when every other taxi driver in Oslo had a pilots license.

Its been done before. According to the media, Coast Air konkurs - Innenriks - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/01/23/524683.html) this airline went belly-up in 2008 because their pilots didn't want to fly for "nothing". Brilliant decision! Sure, some 50-60 pilots where out of jobs for a while, but it helps keeping the T&C up to an acceptable standard. I'm sure if they've had hundreds of newbies willing to pay2fly, the outcome would have been very different.


So... all the best to the Cabin Crew at Norwegian for the upcoming "dispute" on Wednesday... Hopefully they'll have bigger balls than the spineless pilots :yuk:

:E

[truckflyer]

First short for PicMas, you got to love the hypocrites of this world, or has your world changed so much since 2007? Aviation has changed a lot since 2007 for sure.

http://www.pprune.org/freight-dogs/242372-air-atlanta-icelandic-3.html

Referring to your own interest in Air Atlanta Icelandic, seriously and you come to make judgment on Lo Co Pilots?

Kast ikke stein, dersom du selv sitter i glasshus! :E

The problem with some of you guys, is that you left the grassroots long time ago, it's a different market there now, and I agree it's not all good!

The fact is that today companies do offer bonds and SSTR, but now they deduct pay for the TR from your pay, vs SSTR the cost works out the same, but when SSTR you are not bonded by the company ! And they pay you full salary!

So what is the best way forward than?

It's not black or white, every company is different! People are not free to choose, I know so many with 2000 - 4000 hours SEP/MEP with no chance of job unless they pay own TR!

The way I see it the Captains have the power to take a stand, Captains can't be easily replaced!
Wil they take a stand to protect their professions TC's?
Risk their career to save the future of aviation?

I don't think so, that's the problem, everybody thinks of themselves!

[truckflyer]

Not trying to defame you, so you could have got 747 rating for just few hundred dollars! Vow that sounds good PicMas!

I will pretend I believe you on that one!

Point is that all depending on where we are in our career we will look for what chances we have and how the market is!

At moment it is dire, and a lot have changed since you got inside!
USA is not the instructor market it used to be, due to major changes in visa regulations!

Turbo props don't hire low hour pilots here and biz. Prop or Jet have higher requirements to get a job than airlines have.

Every job that gets announced have few thousand applications!

RYR have so many applications that they can be very selective!

The never pay for TR is nice in an ideal world, but I notice more and more TRTOs are run by pilots, from majors!
Hmm isn't this than a bit ironic!

Lo Co companies will never take over the market, they have increased the demand for pilots over the years, now people either gain few thousand hours and move on to majors or they stay and get their command!

Your approach is to attack the weakest, and again it will never happen, the majors are more than happy to take a RYR pilot who has done 4 sectors a day, with loads of airline experience!

The idea that let the company go bust unless we get what we want is also selfish, I know Spanair pilots with over 10000 hours who can't get a job, because experience on wrong type!

It's tough out there for everybody, and you see for yourself, you also so high and allmighty considered to pay for your own TR if the situation was just right!

You are a hypocrit PicMas! That's the truth!

[Photon85]

It's nice how you're all going at each others throats. Probably just want the airlines want these days. As long as the pilots are fighting each other, then there's no worry of any united front being presented.

The fact of the matter is that, no matter how many people you try to stop from doing P2F, pay for type rating, pay for training, there will be hundreds more you can't stop.
Of course it's a bad thing, it's the single most idiotic thing existing in this industry for pilots right now (at least imo), but is the right way to go about it to attack the low-time pilots who choose this option? Imo no.

The only way to really change this, is to change the rules/regulations, to safeguard a minimum of T&Cs, and/or strengthen the pilot unions to be able to stand against it. The problem lies in the fact that, if one union in one company is able to force the company to stop, it wont really matter when 2 other companies have managed to throw out any unions, and are by that 10x as competitive in pricing, causing the other companies to go belly up either way.

You can sit here and shout at all the low timers accepting lower and lower pays, accepting P2F, accepting type ratings, but it's not going to stop it.

But to stop myself from regurgitating what has been said already, I'll just stop here.

[Kissi]

I don’tthink there’s anything wrong with any of you personally or professionally nomatter where you work or what type of entry into the business you did.

What socalled major airlines have the most problems with today is lowering their cost.A contribution to make a lower difference in cost between them and the lowcostairlines is the following: Train young pilots yourself and don’t employ fromlowcost. This will, even if it takes time, higher the cost of lowcost airlines.It also will bring turmoil into these airlines, sooner or later pilots will befed up by nickels and dimes. Even the young guys without family and house,hoping for an eventually better post will be fed up after some years.

This is notmy opinion but I believe this is one the arguments why “major” airlines traintheir own pilots. And I believe this practice will increase.

I alsobelieve this is a good argument that all pilots no matter where you come from,needs to stand together. It will hinder the “major” airline pilots to sink tolow cost level and it will hinder the “low cost” pilots from being stuck withnickels and dimes.

[EngineOut]

Terms are only controlled by guys with a job, they sets up a companies training standards!

WRONG! Terms are controlled by supply and demand. When there is a long queue of scabs willing to pay for jobs, terms get worse. Likewise when these wannabe pilots run out of cash to pay for more flying, terms improve. It's rather easy. :D

[berserker]

However as some others are here, branding other colleagues, pilots, calling them scabs because they work for companies such as RYR or Norwegian is out of order!
It is in my opinion clear that the pilots in the comfy seats today, are just to comfortable to want to start a revolution, make a stand, and say that the new recruits should be offered similar conditions as the ones already in the company!

Well, most of the pilots in NF were ready to support our fellow pilots in DY last time. But that didnt happen did it?? Everyone was prepared to go all the way and take a stand!! But it was not the NF pilots that gave up, was it??
So your quote about pilots in the comfy seat not ready to start a revolution, is quite wrong my friend;)

[Smirf]

truckflyer, how are you not "P2F", when you just bought a typerating?

[Aerosmith]

Does a military pilot pay his checkout on a c-130?
Does a cruiseship officer pay his checkout on the QE2?
Does a doctor pay his checkout on the hospitals equipment?
Do traindrivers, heavy equipment handlers, nurses, astronauts, oilworkers etc. Pay.......

If you pay, you pay to work. Period. The rest is just semantics. Dont be naive!:ugh:

[Photon85]

Back in the days I believe the airlines paid for all your training.
Are you p2f if you pay for your CPL? I mean, we should all just stand together until the airlines finance all our training again, right?
Are the guys flying around in C152s to gain experience/hours p2f? I mean, they're basically just bleeding thousands of dollars to improve their resume?
Are the guys accepting ultra low salary in the USA p2f?

Imo p2f starts when you pay to work. I.e paying to sit in a seat, where a paid pilot should be sitting.
Naivety seems to reside mostly with you guys. Paying for airplane specific training has been around for a long time now, and is not going to leave unless the supply of pilots take a major plunge.
I don't condone p2f in my own definition listed above, and would never pay 40k to work for someone like Lion Air. However I would pay for a type rating if offered a job.
You usually pay through reduced salary anyway, so why not just pay up front.

[Aerosmith]

TF,
Let me confuse you with some facts!

YES, you do pay to fly. A few years ago the airlines found it lucrative to let the newhires pay for their typeratings, enabling them to keep ticketprices low. People like you finance our €29 Alicante tickets. :ugh:
YOU are financing the airlines low fares.
Me and my fellow aviators never payed a dime for our typeratings (I have 6). The passengers payed them.
You sold out, not me!

[Aerosmith]

TF,
Ofcourse The taxpayers pay for the C-130 pilots typerating. HE IS EMPLOYED BY THEM!
Cant say the same for the Ryanair FO.
Why is that so hard to understand:ugh::ugh:

[PicMas]

I have decided to delete my participation in this thread, the attacks and assumed motives are rapidly exceeding my threshold of tolerance.

[Dickcheesecake]

Picmas;
You sound like the moralist among moralists. I first assumed you were ex raf and been arround in this bussiness for ages. If so, I would partly understand your anger, but.....you HAVEN'T!!

From many of your previous posts it appears that you are 33 years old and been in WF for less than 1,5 years. I hope you don't share your hostile attitude with your colleagues in Wf.
I can tell for sure that the majority of them DON'T share your hostile attitude towards low rang " low cost pilots". I do agree that what's going on in DY is a disgrace and has to be stopped. However, the guys that have been in the company for years are on quite good deals and many of them are ex sas, braathens, wf, raf etc. I guess from your Ivory tower you are considering them as the same low level pilots as the rest?

[truckflyer]

What happen PicMas?

Did you feel the heat coming to close to home?

Not sure, but can't be to many guys from Denmark in Wideroe!

By the way, an excellent company!

[Goldenbawls]

TF, hvis forstanden din er like dårlig som engelsken er det jaggu ikke rart det tok 43 år før du fikk kjøpt deg pilotjobb :D

[truckflyer]

Goldenbawls!

Artig, dersom du har problem med Engelsken min, saa er det vel heller du som har problem med aa forstaa Engelsk!

Gidder ikke mere PPRUNE skitkasting - bortkasta tid!

Jeg har en jobb aa forbrede meg til, en jobb hvor jeg faar betalt for aa fly, kan ikke klage paa! Selv om det tok meg 43 aar! :}

Tenk deg noe annet, jeg gjennomforte PPL/CPL / ME/IR /MCC ute ei krone i gjeld!
Og jeg fikk jobb garanti/kontrakt for jeg startet TR, som ogsaa har blitt gjort uten ekstra gjeld!

Men for noen av oss i denne verden, som har bodd i utlandet mesteparten av livet, saa har vi sett hva resten av verden har aa tilby, og funnet ut at Norge er ikke saa ille likevel!

Hva fremtida bringer vet vi ikke, men at de som er "old school" eller for fattige til aa betale sin egen TR, skal angripe de av oss som har vaert flinke til aa opparbeide oss langsomt, uten aa sette kniven paa strupen med gjeld osv., syntes jeg er rikt!

De fleste "old school" - har ingen kontakt lengre paa bakkenivaaet i bransjen! De tror de vet alt, fordi de gjorde ting paa sin egen maate i fortida, desverre har verden endret seg enormt de siste 5 -10 aar!

Som tidligere bedrifts eier, hvor jeg hadde til tider mange ansatte/ og kontrakts personell, saa er det helt klart at jeg saa store fordeler for mitt eget firma med kontrakts personell, spesielt pga de store arbeidsgiver avgifter og sosial stonader man har i Norge!

Helt klart at den Norske staten er ogsaa veldig graadig, og for at ting skal lose seg, saa maa det ogsaa en politisk vilje til for aa gjore Norske bedrifter mere konkuranse dyktige!

Men jeg gidder ikke aa begynne paa dette, fordi for noen saa er det umulig her aa holde en saklig debatt, og prove aa finne svar/losninger, istedet for flere splider/strider mellom de ulike gruppene innenfor det samme yrket!

Jeg er UTROLIG takknemlig for jobben jeg har faatt, hvor jeg faar betalt under linjetrening osv. Desverre vi kan ikke faa alt vi onsker med engang, men naar til og med noen saa "dum som meg" har klart aa faa seg jobb, saa er det haap for alle!

Ikke sant Goldenbawules!!!!!!!!!!! :E

[Hotel Charlie]

Trucker, Jeg tror du bare er en "Net-Troller" jeg! :ok:

[truckflyer]

Vel jeg legger ikke skjul paa at jeg vil veldig gjerne jobbe for Norwegian i fremtiden, saa faar vi se hva som skjer!

Hvem vet, mange troll i Norge for tiden virker det som!:8

[Photon85]

So if you type yourself at a normal school/TRTO, where the "profits" do not go to an airline, is it still p2f? Or where does the p2f limit go for you guys?

[truckflyer]

I am worried about the latent CRM issues with this too!

My friend applied WF, now currently with RyR, would he be met by such hostile attitude as PicMas has shown here?
Just because he previously worked for RyR?

[Guttn]

Is PicMas with WF? Didn't know that!
To answer your Q; anyone meeting the credentials is welcome to apply. The process is debated in aborter thread, so I won't bring it up now. If accepted, and all requirements are met, the applicant will (at some time in the future...) be contacted with a starting date and a contract for permanent employment (yes, permanent) and further details. The applicant is considered a WF employee from day 1, and is treated accordingly:D. You ask if, e.g. FR or DY pilots (former) are treated differently than others? Absolutely not. We are all colleagues who work together (not split/divided), with mutual respect, and have a great time doing it. There are a lot of pilots with various backgrounds who apply to WF. Some make it and some don't. Including the FR and DY pilots you mention.
There is nothing wrong with pilots seeking to better their TCs. This should really go without saying. Back in the day, pilots would aim for the big jets (747) for their career goals. Big jets = big bucks and favorable nightstops:}. Pilots put in the work, did their time, and finally made it (not all, but some - to keep the dream alive for the newbies). Nowadays everyone still has the same dream, but everyone is so afraid of getting bypassed that they pay their way up the ladder. Problem is, this isn't the same ladder. The bar has been raised, cashwise, for employment (which for all practical purposes isn't a complete employment package), thus bringing the TCs down. Now, legacy airlines (mind I did not say majors), struggle to compete with LoCos on many of the same routes, but having quite inferior (and often totally unacceptable conditions for the seasoned pilot) TCs. That's one battlefront. Another one is the competition with the ME airlines who fly around with governmentsponsored fuel. And now, BK wants the Norwegian government to change the rules regarding crew nationalitites (cabincrew to begin with) so he can keep pressing TCs further down the drain.
So please tell me, how far is far enough? When has the rubbel band been stretched far enough, and where/when will it snap? What is your own role in this game?

[truckflyer]

I would not mind working for WF in the future, who knows, no idea about PicMas, not really important! (but I think this assumption is based on his previous threads)

But as I have noticed there is some hostility towards pilots with Low-Co background, specially the ones who have ended up paying their own TR!

I was actually a bit surprised of this, ok here they keep they low profile as nobody knows who they are, I could not imagine how poisonous such a cockpit environment if one was crewed up together with a militant personality like PicMas, having come from a Low Co carrier background!

We are all entitled to our personal view, however we also need to avoid voicing extremist views and emotions!

Anyway back to your point, as some other posters said, the NAS pilots had the full backing from others and union, I have to admit, I am still below the level of knowledge on much of this, as I am in a different stage in my aviation career, where I am standing on the bottom of the ladder trying to get in!

However I do see your view, and I know it is a problem! As an example, from Norway, I had a friend who worked in Statoil offices in Oslo, he got made redundant, as for cost efficiency Statoil decided to move their offices to Estonia or Latvia, don't recall exactly where, but was one of these places!

Now this is a company owned by the government, who to save cost, moved one of their main offices out of the country! What signal does that send to local business people?

I agree that at one point enough has to be enough, and as I think most "normal" view is that we all have to stand together, to preserve terms/conditions!

I personally never subscribed to EU becoming as big as it has become today, as many of those countries in the east have a much lower standard than the west, and that this should have been a criteria before full free movement within East/West, that they had reached similar economical standard!

I personally feel that politicians lobbied by EU Western countries business, made sure of this extension, to increase business profitability on their ventures in the West, get cheaper labour costs and running costs of operations in East European countries! (they never consulted the people on this massive extension of the EU)

I have to admit, my personal circumstances, will decide the way I do think! Having secured my first job, I know that in the future things will change, and I will also be more demanding, this is not being a hypocrite, it is about being a realist!

I can not expect somebody giving me top money to fly an Airbus, when I have no experience, and this is the way I have accepted these conditions! I get pay based on my experience level!
With more experience, I would personally also take a much tougher stand for future work, as I will have more to bargain with!
Of course, the doomsday predictors will say, that that will not matter, because of me paying for my own TR, I have created a market where I will be of no use, and will be just taken over by somebody else!

Let;s make it clear, my airline, does not make a profit on my TR, I was told what TRTO;s they would accept training from, and that deal was than made directly with me and the TRTO, not the airline!

The airline sent their own TRE for my skill test, and combined my skill test and OPC! We was actually 2 pilots, who had the same deal on this!

I know it is not ideal, and it is not a perfect world, but than again we can only act on what is presented in front of us!
And for me to turn down the offer in front of me, would not have changed anything - somebody else would have done it instead! And I would still been without a job!

[Dickcheesecake]

Is PicMas with WF? Didn't know that!

From what I have seen in his previous posts, yes. The funny thing is that after my little " investigation" he has not only deleted his posts in this thread but also the ones in the "wf opptak" thread.

I got so pi$$ed of by his arrogance and complete lack of humbleness that I decided to go through all of his posts. From that I could basicly tell when and where he did his initial training, conversions,ratings, work experience ( time, place and company), jobs he applied for, nationality and age and maybe even his intitials from the way he has signed some of his posts.

After all, this is an anonymous forum so I will keep all that for myself. But is it smart to provide info on a forum like this that could potentially track you down?
:E:E

[truckflyer]

Yes saw that too, specially that he consider paying own TR on the 747, anyway who cares! If given chance later I will apply WF when more experience, who knows we might share a trip, and have discussion about our views and backgrounds!

That would be interesting!:E

I don't see the point to alienate newcomers, rather try to work together to get a good deal for all!

There will always be unfairness, there was a time SAS only employed ex military pilots who had all their training for free, what was the fairness with that?

Time to draw the line in the snow or sand, and stay united for what will be accepted!

One of the problems today is RYR are very aggressive in their business, I personally think Norwegian would gain more if they could stay away from the RYR model in their operations, I still believe if higher quality, people Are generally willing to pay a little more!

[Propster]

TF

Just to make it even more clear:
Your company saves a whole lot of money since you are paying your own rating. So I find you are stretching it quite a bit, when you declare that your company don't make a profit from your self sponsoring your rating.
And then the thing about "stenene og glashuset":
Picmas isn´t the only one deleting posts:=
Somehow it suddenly looks like Aerosmith is talking to himself on the previous page.:E
And Dick: talking about arrogance, I seem to remember someone else being a little rough on someone else´s spelling a little while back:=
And your little private investigation doesn´t really contribute much to anything...

And TF, I think its a bit early for you to begin to question someones CRM abilities:=

Rant over

Regards...

[truckflyer]

Yes, but he refused all his posts, so mine looked even more nonsense there alone! :8

Anyway, I fully see and understand the frustration of todays situation!
Honestly I am tired of this discussion! My situation is as it is, I could not wait until I am 55, and hope somebody would pay my TR!

Than again, I will NOT EVER pay another TR again to get a job, that much I know for sure!

[flydog]

been away for a while who is WF?

[Blue06]

who is WF?

Widerøe (http://www.wideroe.no)
Has 33(?) Dash 8, -100, -200, -300 and Q400 series, flying mainly in Norway.
Still has an "old fashioned", in my opinion the correct view, on the pilotgame, ie buying a rating wont buy you a job.
You get hired by your experience and your performance during 2 days of admissionstests. :D
And with some of the best T&C in Scandinavia, I'd say top 10 regardless of aircraft type(remember; 7 days on/7 days off). Considering they're flying TPs they have to be the top dog(?), and all this while still making money. :D

[trancada]

Any recent news about NAS?

[captplaystation]

An interesting & entirely intentional side effect of this, is that it will move 100 flights out of "Core Norwegian Production " I think you can imagine what AOC will be used in LGW base . . . . . "Norwegian Long Haul" for sure


Norwegian etablerer ny base i London og Alicante
Publisert: 25.10.2012 Av: Astrid Mannion

Norwegian etablerer base i London fra våren 2013.

Selskapet oppretter også en ny base i Alicante. Fra London vil Norwegian fly til en rekke destinasjoner ved Middelhavet og i Norden. Med den nye basen i England vil selskapet også være bedre posisjonert for konkurransen fra asiatiske og europeiske selskaper i langdistansemarkedet.

Den nye basen vil komme på Gatwick hvor Norwegian allerede i dag er en betydelig aktør. London-Gatwick er Norwegians største destinasjon utenfor Norden med nesten 100 ukentlige avganger. Det et stort potensielt trafikkgrunnlag tilknyttet en så sentralt plassert flyplass, både i form av turisme og et omland med mange millioner innbyggere. Basen i Alicante vil betjene en viktig del av Norwegians spanske produksjon, i likhet med allerede etablerte baser i Malaga og Las Palmas.

Norwegian planlegger oppstart med tre Boeing 737-800 på London-basen, for deretter å øke til fire fly senere på året. De første flygningene er planlagt å starte fra sommerprogrammet 2013. Piloter og kabinpersonale vil bli rekruttert lokalt i London.

- Bakgrunnen for denne etableringen er å posisjonere Norwegian for den fremtidige konkurransen både innad i Europa og i langdistansemarkedet. Vekst og volum er nødvendig for å være konkurransedyktig i internasjonal luftfart i dag, og veksten må også komme utenfor Norden. Samtidig er det ventet at den største trafikkveksten og turiststrømmene i fremtiden vil komme fra Asia inn til Europa. Skal man som skandinavisk flyselskap være konkurransedyktig og ta del i denne store trafikkveksten må man ut i Europa og til Asia og posisjonere seg nå, sier administrerende direktør Bjørn Kjos.

Norwegian har pr i dag baser i Norge, Sverige, Danmark, Finland og Spania. En ny base for Norwegians langdistanseselskap er under etablering i Bangkok.




Norwegian opens new bases of operations at London Gatwick and Alicante
Published:25.10.2012 By:Astrid Mannion

Norwegian Air Shuttle will establish a new base of operations at London’s Gatwick Airport in spring 2013.

It will also establish a new base of operations at Alicante, Spain. Norwegian will offer flights to several Mediterranean destinations and the Nordic region from London. The new base in England will also enable Norwegian to better meet the head-on competition from Asian and European carriers in the long-haul market.

Norwegian is already a significant player at London Gatwick. With more than 100 weekly departures between the Nordic region and London, the British capitol is Norwegian’s most popular destination outside its home market. The airline sees a major passenger potential in London and surrounding areas. The Alicante base will – in addition to already established bases at Malaga and Las Palmas – serve an important part of Norwegian’s Spanish traffic.

Norwegian is planning to start its operations at London Gatwick with three Boeing 737-800s and increase to four aircraft by the end of the year. The first flights will commence in spring 2013. Pilots and cabin crew will be recruited locally.

“By establishing a new base in London, Norwegian will be positioned to meet the future competition on short-haul routes within Europe as well as long-haul routes globally. Growth and volumes are necessary to stay competitive in the airline industry,” said CEO Bjørn Kjos of Norwegian.

Norwegian currently has bases of operations in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Spain. A new base for the company’s subsidiary for long-haul flights is being established in Bangkok.

[KristianNorway]

This is a copy of the Ryanair MO. In a short while the fleet of externally contracted "Norwegian" pilots will be much larger than the one organized, and by that time any strike in NPF is worthless. Congratulations. NPF actually dictates the future T&C's for all of us in Scandinavia, so please fight this development asap.

[Tally-ho1]

I totally agree with Kristian...it's a sad, sad story.....I still not understand how the pilot union group in DY could be so f..cked.....by the management - and they discovered it too late...
It's a shame...The other scandinavian pilots were ready to support ...

[captplaystation]

They weren't f. . . .d by the management, they were doing their job (well, I agree, that is debatable, but you know what I mean) however, with the support of all the other pilots, 10 ? was it ? aircraft on wet-lease, and having BK by the b@lls. . NPF dropped the ball (or both of them I guess :rolleyes: ) so, who to blame ?

[trancada]

How this new bases project is running?
Did they selected all pilots? T&C's any changes or diferences from scandinavian collegues?

[captplaystation]

Different :eek: Ha Ha ! ! you are joking , right ? :rolleyes: or you just can't be bothered to read this, or any other thread on here :ugh:

[Guttn]

Might have had support of a few more than 10 pilots there, CP... NPF had the support of ECA pilots as well as quite a few iFALPA pilots, because they asked for mutual support for a good cause, despite the fact that they are not a part of these organizations. It was estimated that about 40000 unionized pilots had their backs if push came to shove. For a very important cause. It was probably not easy to be NPF in the squeeze between massive support and probably facing lawsuits from the company, but the fact is that they did have support from many other pilots. This would certainly have raised more than a few eyebrows down in EASA, and likely forced new rules into place regarding employment of pilots. But alas, they threw in their cards and now we can see what is happening. BK keeps dragging pilots further down into the mud. :mad:

[captplaystation]

What I meant ( & may have confused you with my cr@p punctuation :rolleyes:) ) was 10 wet-leased aircraft.

As you rightly say, I believe most of Scandinavia & ECA was "on-side" with the NPF as they quite correctly saw this as a battle for all, not just DY. . . however in the same way that BALPA in the UK failed to see Ryanair & Easy Jet's contracting practices as their concern (until it was too late ) letting go of BK's family jewels has cost dearly for the future.

[Guttn]

Ahhh then I understand your post a bit better :ok:

But in the end, we`re all pretty much screwed (not in a good way :E), and there`s still too many young, aspiring aviators just waiting to get as fast as they can into the RHS of an airliner no matter what. :yuk:

[Stick35]

Are they now recruiting non type rated people? I applied but never heard anything again? Someone has more up to date info? Thx

[BEN737]

I just finished my "Matrigma" test...Not an easy task to do...40 minutes on line testing with 35 logical tests to solve...Don't drink to many beers before:=
I wasn't able to solve them all.

[pepsBDX33]

Or what is your guess ? Drink more before ;-)

[captplaystation]

Current contract (3 year contract :hmm: ) terminated with 1 mth notice.

NAS have told agencies that we must be "employed" by them from Jan 1st.

New contract to be offered will be modified to include an even less effective Annual Leave system , & no more fixed pattern roster.

Happy days :sad:

Dissapointed ? Yes, Surprised ? . . . . sadly no.

Welcome to the next Ryanair.

[captplaystation]

In reality it most likely didn't.

The way the flying programme was planned @ LPA they needed the flexibility, but, in any case, our current contract had the ability to move our pattern one day back or forward at will at the planning stage. Doubt it will gain them much operational flexibility that they didn't have at AGP/HEL/(LGW)

But, as demonstrated over the years so ably by Ryanair, when someone volunteers to bend over, why not take the opportunity
to shove it up em :eek:


There was talk of 200 or so pilots being recruited this Winter (inc 787) & it seems even the deterioration of the contract still leaves it more attractive than China for most of us.
Scandi colleagues who joined specifically because the contract facilitated commuting , may find the variable roster something of a deal-breaker.

Time will tell if they have misjudged this up in Fornebu.

[captplaystation]

Latest feeling is that ALC (although announced as a "Base") will continue to be crewed from AGP with crews working North then South then nightstopping for 1 or several nights.

No-one knows if AGP will increase in size again next Spring, & quite a few crew were given enforced base change to LPA, they should normally have 1st priority to come back next Spring if base increases again.

Only know of 1 guy who went RHS to LHS as a Contractor. . .the Union don't like it, and whilst it is theoretically possible, the company seem to have enough Command candidates from the full-time pilots, + DEC Contractors.

Like everything else in NAS, all bets are off for the future. . . who knows what comes next.

If you have a good roster that is something that currently looks like a negative in coming to NAS, if the management get their way.

[niss]

Seems that captains Are leaving NAS and going back to RYR.
Not a good sign.

[trancada]

The last day for applications is approaching, do you know if NAS got all pilots that they needed?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year !

[trancada]

Last day for applications was 2 days ago.

What are the results? A lot of applications?

[LeftHeadingNorth]

It's been awhile since NAS hired directly. As of today I dont't know of a single pilot on the core contract that is non-scandi. Don't get your hopes up... :ugh:

[trancada]

Norwegian (NAS) today reported its year-end and December 2012 traffic results. A total of 17.7 million passengers travelled with Norwegian in 2012, an increase of 13 percent compared with the previous year.

“I´m very pleased with the 2012 traffic figures. They illustrate that more and more passengers appreciate our product, including new, more environmentally friendly and more comfortable aircraft and free in-flight WiFi. It´s also particularly satisfying to get proof of our world-class reliability,” said CEO Bjørn Kjos.

Every flight conducted by a Norwegian passenger is on average more than 1,200 kilometers. This is a major increase compared to 2011 and reflects that Norwegian has a great number of longer flights between destinations in the Nordics and southern parts of Europe and North Africa in its extensive route network. The significant increase in distance traveled explains why the RPK grows more than the actual passenger figures.

Norwegian took delivery of 13 brand new Boeing 737-800 aircraft in 2012. The company´s fleet renewal program continues in 2013 with the delivery of 14 new 737-800s; in addition the company´s first 3 Boeing 787 Dreamliner to be used on long-haul flights will be delivered.

Solid December Growth
Norwegian carried 1,266,806 passengers in 2012, up 8 percent compared with the same month previous year. The total RPK was up 19 percent while the ASK increased by 21 percent. Also the unit revenues increased in December; the RASK was up 5 percent. The load factor was 76 percent.

Norwegian completed 98.8 percent of its scheduled flights this month, where of 67.3 percent departed on schedule. December´s on-time performance was significantly affected by challenging weather conditions at Stockholm, Oslo and Copenhagen airports. However, the overall 2012 on-time performance was satisfying. Norwegian was for instance the most punctual airline in Norway, according to Avinor´s official figures. Among the largest airlines at Scandinavian airports, Norwegian has the lowest number of cancellations.

[DIAPER]

Hi Guys.

Does anybody knows how to prepare the online test for Norwegian ? . What can I expect ?

Thanks.:ok:

[balticsflyer]

same here.. any suggestion on what to study will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[MyIDisthis]

Does anyone know, or have you heard any rumours about when Norwegian will recruit FOs again next time? This summer maybe, or even further into the future?

[witchiepoo]

...sure...bend over, drop your pants and expect a big surprise from a bear that just took a dump all over Norwegians...Finns Danes Spaniards Swedes Brits Poles...but the Politicos will stop him cos the Norwegians have heroes like Quisling to look up to....oh..that should be the next contender for the tails of their planes...he set the standard!!

[Tally-ho1]

Strong words....but ....there might be some changes in the company soon. Due to some operational "cases" there are meetings this days between Norwegian management (NAS) and the norwegian CAA.
There seems also to be some challenges in the company politics, where they for a while have been recruiting lowtimers, TC based on contracts (with no soscial security, no tax to be paid...), and the fact that the company did not get permission from norwegian government to hire crew outside the EU area.

The management is now under pressure from groups of pilots, saying that the company is going in a "unsafe" direction. All this might also give some change in the recruiting process. Time will show...

Tally-Ho1