QF Shares hit $1.00 Discuss

[drop bear ten]

Sorry, but the $2 shop is a bit out of date

[arkmark]

So the CEO of Jet Star has killed one of the largest airlines in the world.

Simple -- TIME FOR A NEW CEO.

No amount of waffle and blaming markets can cloud how low he has taken it. It is time for a new captain of the ship.

Nobody else has achieved this milestone, but the current CEO has.

Businesses respond to the person who is the leader.

Virgin is going great guns
Air Asia is going great guns
Garuda Indonesia is going great guns
Etihad is going great guns
Singapore Airlines is going great guns

Qantas is dying.

Dying and charging more than all of the great guns winners, losing it's clients at the same time.

It's easy -- the person at the top has no clue much to the enjoyment of all the airlines around it. There is no possibility to complain how difficult market conditions are when all of these great guns airlines are growing at the expense of Qantas market share.

WHY IS QANTAS LOOSING MARKET SHARE???

BECAUSE THE CEO IS DOING A BAD JOB.

SIMPLE.

It's not too late for a new and smart AUSTRALIAN CEO to save qantas from falling from a share price of ZERO like ONE.TEL.

Oh the Qnatas board also has a ONE.TEL board member on it ....... OOPS.....

BYE BYE Qantas......

I am very sad to see the death of an Australian icon lead by such incompetence from a person who isn't even an Australian who will return to his economically demolished country a rich man having sucked the life out of one of the biggest businesses in one of the strongest remaining economies in the world. He won't care what he has done, he will just be permanently RICH.

I am sorry for all who will loose their jobs, and for my Australian patriotism meaning so little for an Australian institution built on the Australian pioneering spirit.

5 years ago there was no other airline in the world I would choose to fly and now I don't even open their web page no matter where I am flying to.

There was no way I would be singing the praises of Virgin, and now I do.

5 years ago there was no way I would fly Air Asia and now if Virgin doesn't fly there I go straight to the Air Asia web site.

I am sorry Qantas, and Qantas share holders, and Qantas staff......your captain is driving the ship fast toward an island and he will be the first to jump as soon as he can and put his hands in the air and blame everyone else but himself.

Qantas isn't inherently a bad airline, it's just currently reflecting the nature of the person at the top of it's hierarchy, like any other business. Whether it will survive longer than the person at the top is anyone's guess. I bet my guess is obvious........it won't.

[Keg]

I am very sad to see the death of an Australian icon lead by such incompetence from a person who isn't even an Australian....

He is. Naturalised of course but he's an Aussie. I'm still looking forward to him leaving though! :ok:

[Condition 1]

Being Australian is more than just a piece of paper: he is far from being an Aussie.

[arkmark]

Naturalised -- that explains why he wasn't deported when he shut down a key national interest.

As he's an Australian citizen that's not deportable -- that's HIGH TREASON !!

[Ejector]

Are they really $1 now ? :confused:

EDIT after I found the answer: QAN.AX Historical Prices | QANTAS FPO Stock - Yahoo!7 Finance (http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=QAN.AX)

[Shell Management]

QF only really exists to fly the old empire routes. The domestic operations are just loss leading historic commitments. The lack of work ethic in the local workforce will surly mean that SEA and ME carries will eventually crush QFs profit on long haul.

[Shell Management]

The writing is certainly on the wall
Trouble on a crowded dance floor (http://www.theage.com.au/business/trouble-on-a-crowded-dance-floor-20120608-201h4.html)

[TallestPoppy]

ArkMark

Just changing the CEO won't fix Qantas. It needs good cashflow to keep paying for the dugongs and 787's. At the moment its a Legacy airline, with a Legacy cost base. Until the cost base is lowered no number of new CEO's will fix things.

PanAm was an icon, and it has gone. If people don't embrace change, QF will follow PanAm.

[Shell Management]

And legacy labour contracts too.

[arkmark]

So Joyce Says:

But what about the brand? ''The brand has returned to pre-dispute/fleet grounding levels after only six months,'' he said.

Let me tell you Mr Joyce, that I haven't flown Qantas since the day you grounded the airline. I changed to Virgin who gave me a GREAT CORPORATE DEAL.

The brand has never returned for me and frankly it never even tried. My costs were refunded after 4 MONTHS of me calling till I was blue in the face and my BUSINESS CLASS tickets were subsequently replaced by ECONOMY CLASS SUBLOAD credits !!!!!!!

Only a COMPLETE FOOL would do that crap, and then have the balls to tell the market it was all fixed up.

When I left Qantas for Virgin as a medium sized business, Qantas didn't even notice that I let go all of my work with them, as well as my long standing QF Club membership. They didn't even call, or write or care.

DEAR QANTAS -- YOU NEED A NEW CEO.

I rate it as the best thing for poor long suffering Australian travelers that other options that are better than Qantas are now becoming available to us.

OH and another last straw for me was the Qantas automated check in. WOW, what a DISASTER !!!!!

[arkmark]

So WHO let it get this far and WHO didn't stop it ?

There is only one and it's the CEO.

It may well be too late for Qantas, you are right. You can't tell me this wasn't evident 4 - 5 years ago. To me it was.

Joyce has just been riding it out destroying the brand, which perhaps was his strategy all along to prove that his beloved Jet Star model was a picture of perfection even though they were hiding it's true capital costs in the Qantas operation.

Eventually it all had to not work.

When your cleaners are using bottled water every night from the galleys to clean the toilets because management would not provide them with any other alternative you can be sure it's just not going to survive !!!!!!!

A CEO with half an idea about his business would have heard about that one before it was publicised on PPRUNE !!!!!!!

[Fliegenmong]

"The lack of work ethic in the local workforce will surly mean that SEA and ME carries will eventually crush QFs profit on long haul."

And who nurtured that? High Fuel? Trouble in Europe? Clifford Joyce & Dixon? Couldn't possibly be them. And as for Brand, I used to listen to a radio program called the 'Hidden Persuaders'

Hidden Persuaders - ABC Queensland - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) (http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2012/06/hidden-persuaders.html)

Allan Bonsall was scathing of Dixon's trashing of Brand QANTAS

[teresa green]

The only thing going for QF staff at the moment is there no way the govt. can allow 36,000 people lose their jobs, no way, regardless if its the Droner from Altona or the Mad Monk, in the LH seat. That is what you have to cling on to, the only way they can do that is let the whole thing die slowly in a heap, as it becomes JQ, over a period of time. They cannot just hang a closed down sign up at the jet base, that at least gives you time to plan your own future, to sure up your finances, and plan ahead, and with a little bit of luck, a CEO will be found (Ralph Norris are you out there?) who could just turn the whole box and dice around. A worrying time for all QF staff.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

Haven't seen or heard much from Worthless of late?

Blue Foot

[TallestPoppy]

Teresa, so do you really think 36,000 highly paid QF staff couldn't be sacked? Should the Government cut the Health budget to support the Legacy staff and their work practices and payscales?

If Qantas staff don't look at what is happening industry wide, they will never understand the need to change.

Teresa, QF is going the way of PanAm.

[Wally Mk2]

The biggest trouble with QF & mostly other industries that are fighting to survive in a global playing field is that they (QF for Eg) want to lower their operating costs in order to compete. They can't do a lot about fuel costs as that's an ever changing balance sheet on it's own.They still need new planes & they can't get them cheap.
BUT the element they can change or at least want to is lower the human element to all this. Lower wages,reduced services & off shore maint ('cause it's cheaper) making the employees in their eyes their only pawns.
BUT (& there's that word again!) it's all good & well from a CEO's perspective ('cause they don't live in the real world due wealth etc) to want to lower wages have less staff to do more work etc with those same employees living in that same world where EVERYTHING is going up (no thanks to 'Juliars' carbon crap) around them. Sure pay yr staff 20% less to line yr pockets & make you look good but whilst yr at it AJ tell the oil Co's, the food suppliers & general goods suppliers to lower their ticket prices ...................yeah didn't think so !:ugh:

It's a bit like removing every second floor joist on a floor that supports a Co(yeah now there's a go, remove that other 'Joyce!:E) as it's cheaper to do the same job with less 'joists' but one day that same floor will come crashing down due poor support,that we are seeing now. We have building regs to make sure our floors are built strong,what do we have in the commercial world 'floors'? Less & less infrastructure all in the name of top end greed & cost!
What do you do when the 'Joyces' are rotten? YOU REPLACE them!.....it's about to tumble into the Abyss !!

It's a flea bitten dog chasing it's own tail QF!!!!!!


Wmk2

[zappalin]

To take the alternate view, I don't think Qantas has been hard enough!
No doubt that the carrier is in urgent need of reform, in all areas, even as far as EBAs are concerned.
It should be possible for the management to come up with a holistic approach to the problems that face Qantas, even if that means letting some staff go, withdrawing from / changing metal on routes that are borderline and streamlining head office.
It would be a lot of pain in the short-term, but for the chance of a strong Qantas in the middle to long-term which is what it seems most ordinary Australian's and Qantas staff want.

That said, the biggest problem is that none of the staff (and few of the actually interested public) would support such a plan with such a woeful board and the disastrous implementation of about every "plan" Joyce et al have had in the last few years. As if pilots, engineers and ground staff are going to talk wage freezes and CR with the bad blood this board has created.

Slash the company I say, get back to fundamentals and take a "nothing is for granted" look at the whole business and come up with a credible plan to bring Qantas back to strength. This under a new, visionary board and management who are in it for the long-haul along with the staff, not next years bonus.
Better to die trying than bleeding out via the million cuts the business is labouring under now.

[TallestPoppy]

Wally, if you don't follow the industry norm you will fail.

The only way QF can win is to make its costs lower, AND increase its yield.

Without doing those things, the wishful thinkers here will never get their B777's.

[Capt Kremin]

Tallest Poppy, the big problem between staff and management is the yawning credibility gap and the complete lack of trust that the staff have in people like Joyce.

Joyce could tell me that he was of Irish descent and right now, I wouldn't believe him without supporting documentation.

This washes down the line. Pilots I fly with tell me that they delete messages from flight ops management without reading them. The total, complete lack of trust is something that needs to be addressed right now. Qantas does need to go through changes but the basic wage structure that delivered a one billion dollar profit in 2008 is still there, so what has changed and who is to blame?

Reduced network-Management.

Incompetence at highest levels, Red Q and Jetstar(name your franchise, but particularly Vietnam and Hong Kong)-Management

Disengaged front line workers- Management

Gas guzzling A380's instead of B777's- Management

Five year delay on 787- choice to go with untried and unproven technology-Management

Jetstar International- Low yielding, poor load factor, unloved bastard child with zero actual international growth in the last two years; (More to come on that later)-Management.

So you tell me... what really needs to change at Qantas?

[virginexcess]

It seems pretty straight forward to me.

Firstly, it is no use blaming Joyce for this. Clearly he has the support of the Board and was specifically selected to carry out their plan. That is why AJ got the job and not JB. Sure you need to be a certain type of person to be able to stand in front of the media and say the ****e he says, but nevertheless, that is what the Board is demanding.

To me it would seem the strategy is clear, and has been for around 10 years.


Start a second airline to protect the low end against Virgin and also create a second workforce that can be called on if needed industrially.



Slowly deconstruct mainline until such point as it is not viable by transferring flying to J*, then rebuild/rebrand J* in the image of mainline, but with a lower cost base.


This has been made more difficult than envisioned because the Company has been unable to convince anyone that International can't be profitable. By splitting the two divisions and reporting profits separately, there will be little or no resistance from shareholders to any dismantling of international.

Given they already have another international AOC, it is no problem to transfer international flying to that entity. And as we have witnessed at Virgin, it is possible to turn a no frills budget carrier into a full service airline in less than 2 years. It probably can't be done with Joyce at the helm, but that was probably never the plan. AJ's job is to preside over the destruction of the brand, as he has the perfect personality and business background for that, then the Board will bring in someone who is a bit softer and charismatic to rebuild from the ashes.

It would not surprise me either to see the domestic AOC expanded to include international ops, if that can be done. Just watch the domestic boys screw international if they are offered 787's!

Whilst I don't even work for QF and am genuinely sad to see the demise of a great airline, it seems that the Board has no choice than to shut down international and rebuild it with a lower cost base.

Before i get my head ripped off, i do not fully believe the spin about International losing so much money, but i do know for a fact that their cost base is substantially higher than its competitors (Particularly Virgin, which is the real comparison, not EK, EY or SQ). Therefore the Boards hands are rather tied in so far as they have to cut costs. Whether they needed to do it in the manner they have is open to conjecture, but it has to be done.

Unfortunately the days of making a reasonable profit are long gone, the board is required to make maximum profit for the shareholders. Whether this board can hang on long enough to implement their plan remains to be seen. The current share price must surely be well below any projections and I would think that pressure from institutional shareholders to replace Clifford and Joyce must be building.

[Foie gras]

I posted this back in March on "Globalisation, debt and banking":-


Oh Oh, Emirates Air Tells Truth?

Talk about burying the lede!

Emirates, the biggest airline by international traffic, said more carriers will go bust this year as fuel costs and sluggish economies undermine profitability.

“We can reel off a whole load of airlines that are teetering on the brink or are really gone,” Tim Clark, the Dubai-based carrier’s president, said in an interview. “Roll this forward to Christmas, another eight or nine months, and we’re going to see this industry in serious trouble.”

No no no, not that lede. That's the one Bloomberg wanted you to pay attention to.

THIS lede:

“You think you’re going to win, but in the long term you always lose,” Clark said yesterday at the Gulf carrier’s head office near Dubai International Airport. “When we enter into derivatives, betting whatever it may be with counterparties who actually control the price of fuel in the first place, you have to ask yourself, ‘Is that smart?’”



Aha -- truth. You enter into derivatives with those who have a license to steal as even if they misrepresent what they're selling nobody will prosecute them and if not they simply manipulate the market after selling you the position!

Why would you take a bet on the price of something with a guy who has a corner on the market in question? You'd be nuts to do so and yet this is exactly the model these banksters have devised -- peddle to you the "necessity" of hedging and then screw you when you take their advice.

"Heads I win, tails you lose" -- what a great game for the banksters.

The shocker is that Bloomberg printed this.

[crystalballwannabe]

There are a few elements at play here that need further discussion.

25% of QF profits used to come from the Pacific routes to the USA. Virgin chose wisely to compete on that route with the 777.

The Middle Eastern carriers are providing a great product to connect to Europe meaning Singapore, Bangkok and Hong Kong are no longer the "gateways".
They can offer 2 hour connections to the world without foreign crew bases.

Qantas has high staff related costs because of complex agreements/EBA's. Consider the pilot long haul document of some 750 pages to the VA one of about 20.

A distrust between management and staff because of the "cost cutting" mentality.

The good news and bad news:

Strategically, QF won't be able to profit from any routes to Europe in the near future - 10 years. In my opinion Europe is gone..... but not forever. Other carriers have the current geographic advantage. This will be resolved when aircraft are capable of flying from Sydney to London, Paris and Rome DIRECT. If Qantas can hold out to then, it will again have a "European network". The Kangeroo Route will be maintained at all costs until this occurs.

In the meantime, the international arm will have to focus on shorter point-to-point services. The company can expect fairly good outbound loads and fairly poor inbound loads due to high AUD. This will have to be mostly done by Jetstar with a lower cost base.

From a management perspective, current QF pilots would be considered a massive liability to the bottom line. The pay is just to high.. The government has not protected the thousands of manufacturing jobs that have gone offshore in the last 20 years to China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand etc. They will not have "save" Qantas jobs. However, in the national interest, they would like QF to maintain a "robust international presence". The best solution to this is to simply implement a A scale and B scale pay system and merge seniority lists with Jetstar.

The cost of fuel, airframes, advertising, marketing, management etc are basically fixed. QF has 3.3 Billion in cash to Hold out till the middle east has its day in the sun with Abu Dhabi and Dubai (much like Babylon) before it can fly right over the top of them in one go to Paris, London, Rome, from Sydney and again be a global aviation player. Expect a merger of Jetstar and Qantas at this time. There are more complex geopolitical and economic factors at play here and also national interest/foreign policy and strategic manoeuvring. Its a jungle out there!!!!

The share price will be in a doldrum for the next 10 years but will come good around the time of the 100th Anniversary and the remerging of the "great" brand. In the meantime, take a visit to the QF museum in Longreach and sleep easy at night knowing the Management are not stupid idiots and there are people in much higher places who are much smarter than you looking after your interests.

[Hardworker]

It would be great if QF had some management, Joyce isnt leading by example is he, every General Meeting its just about how the company should pay him more for driving the company backwards....
Time to wake up! Joyce and the board need to change and than means being accountable for the current condition of QF...
You want employees to change who do all the time but management keep feeding themselves like pigs...
Borgetti was the man and a leader Joyce isnt a leader and never will be, I dont know anyone who believes the constant crap that comes out of his mouth..
If QF fails it wont be the employees that didnt change its the over paid management

[The Green Goblin]

Do you think Boeing and Airbus will build ultra long haul airframes whilst the middle eastern airlines are ordering record amounts of airframes? If there was a market for it you'd already see it.

The business pressure on 100 wide body orders at a time worth billions is not gong to subside unless western airlines put up greater orders and give the manufactures incentive.

The western airlines are generally more conservative and as such, the status quo will remain favoring 12-14 hour long haul airframes.

Unless of course there is a revolution in jet engine fuel burn and a replacement trippler can haul similar payloads carry current fuel loads further.

I could be proven wrong, but I doubt it. The next ten years will be based on alternative fuel sources.

As such Qantas need a new 8 hour hub strategy.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The company can expect fairly good outbound loads and fairly poor inbound loads due to high AUD.

What the hell are you talking about. Do you think Aussies that go overseas to spend their money don't come back? Subject to season variations inbound and outbound loads are the same.

[crystalballwannabe]

If I were a betting man, I would expect British Airways is carefully looking at taking another large stake in Qantas.

In a worst case scenario, the foreign ownership laws would be reviewed long before Qantas "goes broke". Just how this can be engineered so Emirates/Etihad/Singapore don't get a look in will be fascinating to watch.

At 97c its very attractive.

[teresa green]

Well Tony Sheldon has just taken a almighty spray to Joyce and Clifford for lining their pockets at the expense of QF (The Australian Sunday) so its on now, and many will be backing Sheldon.

[tail wheel]

TWU boss Tony Sheldon calls for heads to roll at Qantas
by: JOE KELLY
From:The Australian
June 10, 201211:37AM

TRANSPORT Workers' Union boss Tony Sheldon has launched a stunning attack on Qantas, accusing its executives of lining their pockets at the expense of shareholders and calling on its leadership to quit.

Mr Sheldon also attacked the government for being too lax on Qantas, saying the carrier was able to use cheap flight attendants from Thailand at a rate of only $400 a month.

The attack comes as the airline's share price plumbed new lows, falling below $1 on Friday, and the shock announcement that pre-tax profits would be down 91 per cent from $552 million last year to between $50 million and $100m.

Mr Sheldon said that Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and chairman Leigh Clifford "both have to go", claiming that 82.5 per cent of its employees believed they were taking the airline in the wrong direction.

He said the airline had "lost its way forward" and was damaging its brand for ideological reasons, referring to last year's decision by Qantas to ground its fleet in order to bring the rolling industrial action against it to a head.

Mr Sheldon said the government had to take action to ensure that Qantas could not take advantage of cheap foreign labour, warning it was against the national interest.

"This is a critical issue. Chris Bowen has to step in and turn around and enforce the Immigration Act," he said.

He said Fair Work Australia was prosecuting 8 separate cases of underpayments by Qantas, but that the Immigration Department needed to take action to defend the tourism industry.

"Defending the tourism industry, isn't just the operators like Qantas," he said. "It is the people who work in it. This country is built on a whole series of economic parameters and one of them is to give decent paying Australian jobs."

The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/twu-boss-tony-sheldon-calls-for-heads-to-roll-at-qantas/story-fn59niix-1226390266859)

He is probably correct. Clifford, Joyce and the present Board have proven beyond any reasonable doubt they are incapable of profitably operating the company or reversing current financial trends.

Qantas will not be nationalised and it would be political suicide for any Government to bail out or intervene in Qantas.

Any other public listed company that achieved a five fold reduction in share value and no dividend for three years and heads would have rolled long ago. I don't understand how QF Directors and executive not only survive, but are rewarded with pay increases and bonuses. :confused:

Change is now solely up to the share holders and specifically the largest institutional share holders who you may recall, blindly supported Joyce and his pay increase at the last AGM.

[teresa green]

Tallest Poppy are you kidding, it is political suicide for the Govt to be faced with 36,000 suddenly unemployed people. They will be running around like headless chooks trying to fix it before that happens. 36,000 staff, plus all the contractors, tourism, travel agents, and assorted hangers on. It would make 89 look like a bakers picnic, and it was no picnic. Expect a car manufacturing leg up, anytime soon if it comes to that. And the public backlash, they might not fly it, but take it away and they will become ****faced, believe me. And the pollies will feel the heat, like you would not believe. Can you just imagine the media, and the shock jocks, and the outrage, and the pollies ducking for cover. Joyce will be back in Ireland with the poodles, just like that Mexican bloke from Telstra, and then start firing salvos safely from OS as to what a bunch of nutters we are. Never mind he has just stuffed our freckin National Carrier. Its not that easy.

[The The]

There is no doubt something at government level needs to be done if Australia wants ANY sustainable Australian owned airline industry and Australian based jobs that go with it.

If you want to see the value of Australian owned international airlines, have a look at the recent Virgin split. VIAH has a total value of $2210. Yes $2210!! The Virgin split gave shareholders a dividend of $0.000001 per share. With an issued capital of 2,210,197,600 that is a total of $2210 to de-list VIAH from VAH.

That in itself tells you what the situation is.

There are a few things that could be done to "help" Australian airlines.

1. Loan guarantees. During the GFC, the Gov't guaranteed bank deposits to stop a run on our banks. Why not a similar scheme to allow airline capital restructuring (ie. new aircraft). Any airline could apply for loan guarantees to permit fleet upgrades. Has the benefit of reducing carbon emissions by use of more fuel efficient aircraft. For an airline like Qantas which is going to find funding new aircraft shortly impossible, it would give it a lifeline to restructure. It would also give the government leverage to force Qantas to keep jobs onshore.

2. International passenger levy. Apply a levy on all international passengers. A $20 levy inbound and outbound would raise about $300m per year. Use that $300m to insure the above loan guarantee scheme. Use it to support onshore maintenance industry.

Is a $40 total levy going to kill tourism? I don't think it would make a difference. Will doing nothing at government level kill the Australian aviation industry? Most definitely!

[crystalballwannabe]

"Pursuant to the ASX Listing Rules, an announcement was made to the ASX on 23 December 2011, advising that the Potential Level of Foreign Ownership at 23 November 2011 was 31%. Qantas is not required to further update the market unless the level of foreign ownership exceeds 44%. Qantas remains subject to an aggregate foreign ownership limit of 49%".

A foreign entity could take an 18 percent state in QF with a stake up to 13 percent available with no requirement to report. Not sure about amounts requiring "change in substantial holding notifications" of current shareholders.

Certainly, a large n opportunity exists for Australian Banks and Superannuation interests to buy the stock.

Geopolitically, IAG which owns British Airways and Iberia would be the best outcome if a foreign entity was take a large stake in the carrier.

Re: The best outcome for pilot pay. An A scale B scale system is not ideal, but the A scalers will do more damage if they had to take a pay cut to B scale wages. The unions would whinge at length, and the general "culture" of the A scalers is that it become their "right" not to accept inferior conditions or a backward step upon acceptance into the Airline.

There is some middle ground here - but it is messy, lengthy and there will be some "collateral damage" in any case. This MUST be accepted as as in manufacturing, jobs and whole companies went go offshore.

How many companies have been able to compete with cheap foreign labour in China. There are only a handful of Australian owned and manufactured companies i.e. RM williams boots.

The Government will not "protect" pilot wages, nor should they. Simulator, CBT training, Cadets and technology have changed the "worth" of the pilot, although the responsibility and shift work nature of the job demand above average wages.

This is a big issue because not many companies in Australia have a large number of employee's (over 1000) on over $200,000 a year. The union needs to be careful with its media tactics for two reasons:

1) There are many people in Australia who have already lost their jobs over sea's. THEY ARE NOT ON YOUR SIDE are will have little sympathy to you.

2) Pilots will be made to appear as overpaid bus drivers holding the economic future of the company to ransom with a little bit of media "massaging".

For all the posts that follow picking this "reality" to pieces financially, ethically, etc please read previous posts that factor in a 10 year time frame for the union vs the company antics. It will cost more than 100 million, but expect a MASSIVE advertising media campaign when its all over. That 3.3 Billion kitty will be raided, and the brand will survive and prosper.

[ohallen]

There is a long way to go before the Rat is crippled. This is a viable business that needs restructuring in a big way but is far from extinct PROVIDED current Board and Execs are kicked out before it is too late.

Everyone knows change is coming, they just don't see any hope with |Joyce/Clifford and the only ones who did (those who shared the weed at the AGM) must surely now be asking why did we fall for it.

Rat is not a normal company and can resurrect itself with quality leadership and less consultants.

[arkmark]

The The,

I almost almost almost like your idea, except for one problem.
They have already taxed the hell out of international tickets.

The other day a friend and I worked out the tax on a DPS-PER ticket, and it was 60% !!!

That leaves VERY VERY little for the airlines on that sector -- $70.00 to be exact. Somehow after the government takes all that tax and wastes it completely, the poor airlines who are the only reason the tax can exist have to try to find a profit !!!!

More tax is never the answer I am afraid.

Now if we reduced the existing tax, the airlines would be able to maintain the same ticket price and would earn the same amount on their bottom line, and at the same time government spending would become more efficient :cool:

[Ken Borough]

I wonder if Sheldon came out swinging in an effort to avert attention from a story in today's Sun-Herald about ramp staff - who would be members of the TWU - in Sydney (allegedly) accessing porn etc?

Qantas suspends 10 over porn (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/qantas-suspends-10-over-porn-20120609-202qe.html)

[tail wheel]

"it is political suicide for the Govt to be faced with 36,000 suddenly unemployed people."

Yes But that is not happening.

"They will be running around like headless chooks trying to fix it before that happens."

Yes Situation normal.

"36,000 staff, plus all the contractors, tourism, travel agents, and assorted hangers on. It would make 89 look like a bakers picnic,...."

Yes But can't happen.

I don't think you understand.

Qantas is not "going broke", not sacking 36,000 staff, not shutting up shop.

Qantas is forecasting a $50 mill to $100 mill profit this year and no dividend. It has or had around $3 Billion in reserves. It's shares are currently trading at a 50% discount.

Qantas is retracting as it loses international market share. It's greatest asset, it's Aussie staff are totally disengaged. It's management suffers delusions of JetStar grandeur. It is increasingly irrelevant both in Australia and certainly internationally.

Its incompetent management knows no better.

Qantas will never prosper as the profitable Spirit of Australia until competent, capable Australian men and women of wisdom and foresight again assume command.

[booglaboy]

Why is it people keep referring to Qf employee wages being so high.? Borghetti etc have publicly admitted that pilot/engineering wages r on par with Qf. Jq's conditions r equal as well. We will never hv Asian wages, we hv 10% of their population or less. We also don't hv Asian living conditions/standards. Qf employee costs are not out of kilter with other airlines in Australia. The killer is in-effficient, over paid management levels. That and a CEO/chairman/board paid way too much for destroying an airline. I will argue til I'm blue in the face that the staff at Qf are proud,passionate and hard working. Hell even engineering delays r at an all time low despite the turmoil of last year. Wholly due to engineering wanting to see this company last and thrive

[VC9]

As a business class passenger on an East/West flight last week I experienced the usual indifferent service that is often provided by the "matrons"that tend to bid for these flights.

Prior to takeoff (A330) galley gossip regarding the 5 hours that they would have to endure. Unfortunately this conversation was audible to most of the business class cabin.

Drinks service. Only almonds offerred although a choice was on board.

Meal service. Soup was the starter. No croutons offered, they were on board. No bread offered until I ask for it.

Staff need to take some ownership that they are part of the problem, not only the management.

Australian's are very good at blaming everyone else for problems. They really need to look at themselves at times.

[smoko]

VC9,

You've hit the nail on the head.

A business is only ever successful with a point of difference. QF can't compete in a price war, which is what it is unsuccessfully attempting at the moment. The only way QF can maintain market position is to give customers what they want, and go back to what was their original long lasting and successful point of difference. The "Spirit of Australia"; - good service, Aussie flight attendants bringing them home from their overseas stint, a high safety record, etc, etc. That combined with the right aircraft would right now be keeping them going strong.

Joyce / Clifford / Dixon have been cutting the hell out of any opportunity or engagement for staff to want to provide that service. They've been damaging the morale levels to an extent that you really can't blame the flight attendants for having that attitude, as much as it disgusts me.

Having a price war against Emirates, Etihad, Singapore, even V Aus, they WON'T win!

[Sunfish]

VC9, "there are no bad troops, only bad officers."

Given the appalling standard of what passes for managment at Qantas, I'm surprised you got any service at all.

[Sunfish]

VC9, "there are no bad troops, only bad officers."

Given the appalling standard of what passes for managment at Qantas, I'm surprised you got any service at all.

To put that another way, Qantas used to be the gold standard for quality of service - with exactly the same staff.

[V-Jet]

VC9: There is no way you can rub professional people's noses in giant piles of poo for nigh on 2decades and expect them not to become indifferent, uncaring and/or just plain pissed off.

I am a pretty right wing guy, but having witnessed first hand the utterly appalling and incompetent management at Qantas over the last 15 years I can only blame this Clifford/Strong/Dixon/Joyce disaster.

Sure in the old days there were occasional bad guys out there, but now it's good guys who have been treated appallingly by idiots who know nothing one too many times.

How would you feel if you complain to morons about the new 744 config (something crazy like 2toilets per aircraft) only to be told 'but the passengers love it - give it time the toilet/pax ratios have been tested as fine' (just like every other nonsensical idiotic decision these incompetents come up with) only to have to clean up a BUSINESS class pax after they crapped themselves queuing for the toilet. And this garbage has been going on for YEARS. I am sure the 22yo bus school grad that came up theses great ideas has extensive experience in customer service and also (like everyone else) will be long gone when the real staff have to solve the problems with the pennies in the dollar money bank that is left after everyone has earned their great bonuses.

It makes every employee of Qantas physically sick witnessing this train wreck...

[somewhereat1l]

VC9 there are some great staff at Qantas but most have just had enough of the terrible management and just can't be bothered anymore.

I left Qantas 6 years ago, awful place to work, toxic environment...far too many managers...ZERO leaders.

Friends who still work there tell me its far, far worse now.

The clear needs to start soon otherwise Qantas will not survive.

Fly Virgin next time - you might be pleasantly surprised.

[dragon man]

QF INT JETSTAR INT

2009 Load Factor 81.2 73.9
2010 " 82.9 74.2
2011 " 82.7 77.6
2012 " 82.2 75.0

These are the official figures. So, what i dont understand is how can we go from 2011 and 82.7 load factor to 2012 and 82.2 load factor which is a drop of .05% and equates to a profit drop from $210 million to $450 million or and increase of 114% in the loss year on year for international. Now either yield has plummeted (crap) or some porky pies are been told ( i know that couldnt happen in Qantas). Also if Qantas International loses that sort of money on 82.2 load factor what is Jetstar losing on 75% with its yields. I know the answer to that and that is we will never know.

[teresa green]

Jeez only ten Ken, what a bunch of pikers, used to be a lot more in my day!:E The TAA hangers were a mine of information!:E

[crystalballwannabe]

QF Management are not doing a bad job "strategically".

Most of you have no idea of the bigger picture here which is a real blessing.

What.... you want to sack the management and the board and hire people that will meet short goals measured by key performance indicators or something similar. Then you will feel all warm and cozy and important.

How bigger loss did Sony just post? And how can you consider QF shares trading at a 50 percent discount (Reference what - their list price???).

QF are making some hard decisions, part of Managements salary covers them for the damage to their further professional career being at the helm during tough times.

The long term brand, vision and finance is in place!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only people worried about "the airline" is the staff. This is an easy problem to fix, esp with a 3 billion dollar war chest.

The public and the business community have been dealing with offshoring and globalisation for 20 plus years. As I said previously, the general public don't care about your problem - everyone else has been dealing with it for years. Its going to be fun to watch the spoilt little "rich kids" cry poor.

[V-Jet]

CBW: Airline staff have been the ultimate offshore business for the last 40 years. The 'spoilt little rich kids' you are referring to (I assume QF staff) are in fact leaving in droves to pursue richer spoils with almost everyone else.

From pilots perspective I have it on very good authority that QF pay rates on anything under the 744 are paid considerably less than their O/S compatriots, the 744 equal to 5% above and the 380 is a winner with 5-10% more than their competitors. Putting this in perspective the $AUD is dramatically higher than when these rates were negotiated. I know for a fact there are rare Jetstar 330 drivers on $400k so the payscale argument is plain wrong. And this is proved with more than 1 pilot every week leaving QF for anywhere else - including driving coal trains because they are simply sick of the bill****...

No one but a totally uneducated commentator or a management groupie could support these incompetent Enron wannabes. They have zero understanding of the business they are in the final stages of ruining and just how incompetent they were/are will be made plain when the epitaphs are written.

[gobbledock]

I wonder if Sheldon came out swinging in an effort to avert attention from a story in today's Sun-Herald about ramp staff - who would be members of the TWU - in Sydney (allegedly) accessing porn etc?
Well we know that would never happen to a 'plane spotter'. They prefer to phototgraph aircraft on short finals and have a 'thrash' over that!!

[crystalballwannabe]

Hahahaaaaa

"No one but a totally uneducated commentator or a management groupie could support these incompetent Enron wannabes".

Brilliant statement from a pilot's perspective.

Enron has NOTHING in common with QF.

Bring on the drones before pilot's become better than taxi drivers at running the economy.

[balance]

CBW. I'm wondering if you were joking with your post, but I'll take a risk and bite.

QF Management are not doing a bad job "strategically".


Where is your evidence of this? Because, the share price indicates dramatically that what you suggest is wrong.

Most of you have no idea of the bigger picture here which is a real blessing.

Sorry fella, but your post suggest that your bigger picture looks like a Pro Hart carpet!

What.... you want to sack the management and the board and hire people that will meet short goals measured by key performance indicators or something similar. Then you will feel all warm and cozy and important.


Yes, most of us want to sack the ENTIRE management. No, we don't want to hire people who are short term goal oriented, and I haven't seen anyone suggest this except yourself!

How bigger loss did Sony just post? And how can you consider QF shares trading at a 50 percent discount (Reference what - their list price???).


I'm not sure what Sony, or the local Deli, or anyone else has to do with QF's specific problems?

QF are making some hard decisions, part of Managements salary covers them for the damage to their further professional career being at the helm during tough times.

Oh, boo hoo! The damage that has come about has been caused almost entirely by managements "hard" (read hopeless) decisions! Why should shareholders foot the bill for clearly incompetant managers?

The long term brand, vision and finance is in place!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that is one of the most frightening things I've ever read...

The only people worried about "the airline" is the staff. This is an easy problem to fix, esp with a 3 billion dollar war chest.

You aren't serious are you? The value of the shares in the airline is less than the "reputed" 3 billion dollar war chest.

The public and the business community have been dealing with offshoring and globalisation for 20 plus years.

Maybe true. But now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. Because like it or not, our country is less and less like that lucky country I once heard of.

As I said previously, the general public don't care about your problem - everyone else has been dealing with it for years. Its going to be fun to watch the spoilt little "rich kids" cry poor.

Others have dealt with your woeful inaccuracy with this. But your post shows a level of spite which removes any credibility you might have had.

[V-Jet]

CBW: FWIW I lead several lives. You saying Enron has nothing to do with QF proves how little you understand the Qantas 'Enron wannabe' comment. I don't care anymore because I am out, but these guys are indefensible. Incompetent and should be criminally negligent. I can tell you this. If I treated my staff (many of whom have no clue I fly) the way these idiots do, I would have no staff inside a day and my competitors would ensure I had no businesses within a few short weeks. What the banks would then do would leave nothing but dry sun bleached bones on a desert plain.

[crystalballwannabe]

I accept the "rich kids" comment was perhaps inappropriate.
I guess it was in reference to generally superior conditions to the average worker QF staff have traditionally enjoyed.

Salary is one thing, productivity is another. I have numerous S/O mates than file large income tax returns i.e. 180G and have weeks, even months not working in the last 3 years. A previous post regarding an 8 hour strategy would remove the need for S/O's altogether!!!

Anyway, most of the last post is so difficult to respond to it would be akin to showing a grade one math student a mathematical proof of a calculus derivative. Get back to me when you understand economics, geopolitics, economic warfare, have an MBA in business management as a minimum and yes have studied companies like Sony, Kodak and Enron. A little foreign policy and corporate law both domestically and internationally wouldn't hurt either.

Pilot or not, and getting back to the original thread, QF is a great company with a proud history and numerous competitive advantages despite what some might think in the SHORT TERM.

I won't be buying into any more posts or rants - I will be buying up QF stock because whether you believe in value investing or an efficient market, at current prices its an incredible buy.

Happy Flying to all.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Some of you need to stop and think for a minute,the statements above about QF needing a restructure are based on what AJ and company are saying.

Is it possible that they are not telling the truth ?.

Many have alleged that:

* many profitable routes have been gifted to one star and jitconnect,
* the books have been cooked, many costs have been put onto QF International that is not theirs, asian one star cabin crew, fuel, maintenance etc etc.

So is QF International really the black sheep ?, I do not think so.

Does QF International really need restructuring, an intelligent person could conclude that nothing has changed other that the company trying to destroy QF International as a means to reduce pay and conditions, and reduce them quite considerably.

The whole of QF has always been profitable, what has changed, the introduction of one star and the comparative substandard pay and conditions.

AJ and company racing to become a LCC.

JB and company evolving into a premium carrier.

Who's going to win this race ?.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

I heard a story about how Qantas department managers are unwilling to take the time to investigate bogus invoices received. If they do spend time looking into inflated false invoices from suppliers then they miss those MBA mantra KPI's that Joyce so loves.

Then they get a please explain.

You wonder why QF is such a mess..

Blue Foot

[Fly_by_wire]

Qantas has high staff related costs because of complex agreements/EBA's. Consider the pilot long haul document of some 750 pages to the VA one of about 20.Is this actually correct??

[Jabawocky]

Pretend I know nothing about aviation for a minute.....yes, it is mostly true ;)

Business 101. Three core groups, these are Shareholders the customers and the staff (front line folks, not all the excessive middle and upper management ranks but they also count to a lessor extent.

Look after the Staff, who Look After the Customers, who Look After the Shareholders.

Simple things like staff travel, it is not all about pay, having a connected and listening management core. Listen to the customers :eek:.

This has been here before.....but this is how it works, no matter what business you are in, and one with high risk and low margins it is ever more so critical.
Herb Kelleher: Managing in Good Times and Bad - YouTube

Right now it seems I need to apply for the top job at ASA and QF. It is not easy work....but it is a simple philosophy. Borgs seems to understand.....I bet he still can't believe his luck!

[V-Jet]

CWB: Business is simple. Make people happy enough with a service you provide to pay you more than it costs to provide.

MBA's are waay overvalued and no wonder you are so happy to buy QF because QF has no shortage of experts who have great KPI's but think its OK in Business Class for one tea bag to make 5 cups of tea and passengers to crap themselves queuing for toilets, but hey, I only operate in the real world with small budgets and real people who don't need spreadsheets and ppt presentations to prove to their staff they know what they are doing....

In a way I regret not being one of these clowns. They are deomonstrably incompetent yet have the ability to talk their way into mega million bonus packages. I have to earn my money every day and in Qantas prove I am competent to an extraordinary degree just to be allowed in the door. In my other life I exist through wits, quick footedness and empathy with staff. I screw up badly and I don't have massive budgets and large staff numbers to hide behind. Who is the fool? Apart from the freedoms I have (enough cash, being the boss without boards etc) I am clearly the idiot. However, my success in life (such as it is) has been brought about purely through the pursuit of excellence. If you cannot excel or strive for excellence you are nothing in my book. This is where the current cadre of QF management are total failures on every level. And why, incidentally I cannot stomach even looking at their hideous features anymore.

Keep buying QF - someone has to be there to fulfil the shorts:)

[Jabawocky]

And here is another one, and a quicker example of what is required.

Business of Business is People: Herb Kelleher - YouTube

The last couple of seconds are funny....but deadly serious!

[Keg]

Fly by wire, I have no knowledge of the DJ pilots EBA so can't comment with any authority on what it consists of.

I can confirm that the QF EBA is currently 508 pages. For some strange reason, much of that is duplicated from other parts of the document. It's available for download online if you want to read it. It used to be wagenet.gov.au but not sure if that's still the address.

There are also a number of things in our contract that DJ would have but probably not part of their core pilot contract. As an example, I suspect that DJ would have their check and trainers appointments and so on as part of a separate document or contract given to each trainer. That probably outlines their tenure, access to flying, trading trips, etc. For QF ours are all in the main award. Why are these things there? Because at some stage people on both sides of the equation have rorted the system as it was understood and thus it was put down in black and white.

So sure, we could get rid of HEAPS of stuff in our award and just put those pilots who do various office, technical, training roles on separate contracts that are an addition to our EBA but at the end of the day, it's all in the EBA.

So yes it's 508 pages. However a lot of it doesn't apply to the majority of crew on a day by day basis- particularly the bits that still apply to Flight Engineers! :eek: There are areas where it can improve and be shortened however given the lack of trust that exists, I reckon the trend will be for more regulation rather than less.

[Ken Borough]

Quote:
Qantas has high staff related costs because of complex agreements/EBA's. Consider the pilot long haul document of some 750 pages to the VA one of about 20.
Is this actually correct??

You betcha. It makes the White Pages look like a Reader's Digest Condensed Book. :E

[TallestPoppy]

Second Officers earning over $180,000? And people here say there is no need to reduce Qantas's legacy costs?

[Shed Dog Tosser]

I would wager that any loss on any routes, would be in direct response to one star being the only QF group option on that route.

Me and mine will not fly one star,,,,,,,,,,ever.

[ejectx3]

Other airlines carry more expensive f/os and captains instead of s/o's

[Arnold E]

Second Officers earning over $180,000? And people here say there is no need to reduce Qantas's legacy costs?Pilots, engineers and the guy throwing the bags in the hull all produce some outcome to the core business, which is transporting people in aeroplanes. In other words they are productive to the core business. now lets take someone like Olivier, what does she contribute to the core business, in other words what does she contribute to productivity? Now there are a mountain of people in this catagory at Q and, infact, a lot of other bussinesses. So it would seem to me that to increase productivity you need to reduce the amount of money spent on the NON productive first before starting to look at the productive people. Now I know that no business can survive without a certain amount of admin (therefore non productive ) staff, but it would seem to me that the non productive, and generally the most expensive area, is the best place to start the fat trimming.
What say you.:confused::confused:

[...still single]

I swear, there are more company paid trolls in this thread than legitimate PPRuNers.

Or am I just paranoid? Are there people out there with no ulterior motive, genuinely defending the dumbassery coming from Q management?!?
Not only defending it, but blaming the predictable consequences of it on the (remaining) over-paid, under-worked, inefficient staff?

Really?!?
Years of hacking and slashing with reckless abandonment, Joyce is pretty much at war with his own staff, and when the profit forecast is downgraded, it is all the fault of dis-engaged cabin crew and overpaid pilots?
Dixon shuts down the engine shop, and how many in-flight shutdowns have happened since then? Clearly, he didn't go far enough! Maybe we need to slash more maintenance until we get it right.

Vision?!? What the...?

What vision? AJ's vision is Ryanair, that is the goal. Everything cut to the bone, morale in the dustbin and pilots working as contractors with questionable tax arrangements. Seems to work ok for Ryan and should continue to appeal to that portion of the public that considers nothing but price.
Or maybe Nero's vision? Let the whole thing burn and rebuild it as a monument to himself? Or let his mates buy the fire-damaged brand at a discount price?
"To be sure, International (now conveniently a separate entity) is dragging us all down! We'll all be rooned if someone doesn't take it off our hands! Oh! Who's that at the door? Oh hello, Geoff! What brings you here?"

And some of ya'll think this thing is headed in a good direction?
I don't think so.

[teresa green]

Well after the spray Sheldon gave Joyce and Clifford on Sky Agenda tonight they would have been choking on their lobster dinners. Expect hell to break lose on the dawn after that little number, but what Sheldon said made a lot of sense, and there will be shareholders getting very cold feet, very cold feet indeed, and some journo's might just start to question if the staff have a point, that there is indeed something not quite right.

[SOPS]

Sorry, as I am monitoring this from O/S, who is Sheldon?

OK Google is my freind, just answered my own question.:ok:

[noip]

Tallest Poppy ....

Second Officers earning over $180,000?

Anything else you'd like to share from fantasyland?

N

[dr dre]

And this is proved with more than 1 pilot every week leaving QF for anywhere else - including driving coal trains because they are simply sick of the bill****...

Really?? Anyone can confirm any able-bodied, qualified QF drivers otherwise employable as pilots leaving for jobs outside aviation because of the current situation?? Even when they haven't talked about CR yet?

[TallestPoppy]

NOIP, the 180k figure was supplied by 'crystalballwannabe' in post number 56 of this thread.

"I have numerous S/O mates that fIle large income tax returns i.e 180G and have weeks, even months not working in the last 3 years"

But I suppose that inefficiency is acceptable to you because they are not managers?

[Anulus Filler]

Well after the spray Sheldon gave Joyce and Clifford on Sky Agenda tonight


and here it is....


Video: Australian Agenda, part 2 (http://video.news.com.au/2244177383/Australian-Agenda-part-2)

[B772]

The Green Goblin.

You may be surprised to learn both Airbus and Boeing build ultra long range aircraft as per the current definition.

In the case of the Airbus it (A340-500) has not been been successful due to the payload/range/fuel chart. SQ are the only ultra long range operator (SIN-JFK-SIN) with 100 J class seats.

The B777-200LR Worldliner can carry 300 PAX LHR-SYD or LHR-MEL nonstop in a 3 class configuration. Westbound with a full load a technical stop could be in either PER or DRW for fuel and crew change.

I would see this service with First, Business and Premium Economy Pax as the only way QF could compete with the Middle East carriers. In the event of hostilities in the Middle East or a swing away by Pax from the Muslim Middle East carriers QF would be in a box position.

OMG, I have forgotten one thing. Boeing offered to build a 'special' QF B777-200LR model a number of years ago for SYD-LHR using some B787 technology such as B787 shadeless windows etc etc but it was turned down as old technology.

(Boeing built the B747-400ER especially for QF and who are the only operator of the model)

[donpizmeov]

Interesting. EK 772LRs have 266 seats in a 3 class config and that's with 10 across in Y class. Its the only aircraft in the fleet to make less money than the 345 as it has only 8 first class seats in stead of of the 345s 12 (258 seats total on the 345).

Would be a bit of a squeeze with 300 on board wouldn't it?

The Don

[B772]

The Don.

I agree 300 would be tight and we must not forget EK have 7 abreast in Business. Even though Boeing suggest up to 301 in 3 class the presentation to QF without garden variety economy was 246 seats.

[V-Jet]

Dr Dre. Yes. For a start there are numbers of guys on lwop doing many different things - and remains to be seen how many return. Most it would seem are simply off to the sandpit but particularly S/O's are the ones taking up opportunities with their previous skill sets - building, doctoring, engineering etc. I understand the train driving example is/was surprising not because it is reputed to have happened but because it was from a surprisingly well positioned pilot. What is indisputable is that morale is atrocious, most crew are hoping there are 5 years left before end game, exit strategies are discussed on every flight deck and galley 'I'm lucky, I only have 2 years to go - but what are you doing?' Since the grounding I cannot tell you how many times that has come up. What is so upsetting is the deliberate destruction. You have probably the most loyal and professional group of people it is possible to get who have been undermined at every possible turn. If you are in any doubt as to my words then look no further than the industry wide survey being 'advertised' on this site. I used the term 'criminally negligent' earlier. The incompetence is imho of that level. I cannot think of any company I have ever read of where senior management is so predictably acting against the interests of the very thing that is paying their wage. It is such a totally unprecedented situation that the tired and utterly incorrect line of it being 'the unions' fault is so easily swallowed. You are witnessing catastrophic failure by grossly incompetent fools. There is no other possible explanation. The only 'excuse' for this deliberate destruction is possibly the cheapening of the company to the point 'mates' of those in charge cam buy it in a quasi LBO scenario. Whilst that is plausible and I believed it to be true for some time, due to the ongoing incompetence and lunatic announcements I am beginning to be convinced the only answer is total incompetence - I am unconvinced these guys are bright enough to have any plan at all. They just do not have the first clue about anything to do with aviation..

[Sunfish]

For the benefit of some people here, I actually have an MBA and I achieved it while still working for Ansett.

An MBA is a "licence to learn" the art of management, it is NOT a "licence to manage".

I have proved in my own career that there is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR HANDS ON EXPERIENCE AT THE COAL FACE. An MBA will complement that experience and allow you to build on it.

The idea that once you have an MBA you can manage anything is completely and utterly false.

....And I got lectured by Saint Margaret Jackson about what a wonderful example of MBA success she was at least every Six months. Stupid +++++.

[DirectAnywhere]

Great post v-jet. I don't normally offer back slapping but that provides a great insight in to what is going on amongst flight crew.

Sunfish, you invalidate your posts with that last comment. It's inappropriate.

[teresa green]

I think Sunfish is still smarting from the amount Jackson was going to add to her bank account when she and Dixon had flogged QF. I would not use that word about any woman, but Jackson deserves our utter comtempt, for her part in the destruction of QF. Who can blame Sunfish?

[DirectAnywhere]

I have no problem with contempt - it's a sentiment I share. I do have a problem with the way it's expressed. It lowers the tone of his posts to the point that all anyone will take away is the last word and adds to the perception that many males in the industry are misogynists. The Claire Harvey article in the Tele a couple of years ago and the responses to it should act as a warning.

As an MBA graduate and presumably a former manager himself he should know better.

Sunfish often adds much of value but not here.

[teresa green]

On a brighter note in the SMH today Adele Ferguson is calling for a quick fix for QF. Thank God she thinks along my line, that is, QF is the National Carrier, it is unthinkable that this airline should ever go out of business, and it MUST be fixed for the sake of the country for the sake of tourism. I'll drink to that.

[V-Jet]

But that means Strong, Dixon, Joyce, Clifford etc have stolen all the value for themselves and through total incompetence left a carcass for the taxpayer to solve. Where is the punishment??

PS: I thought The Sunfish/Jackson comment was measured. Probably very measured in relation to the garbage that was no doubt dished out to Sunfish regularly from the Jackson voicebox. And one would suspect also factual:)

[Sunfish]

Sunfish:

And I got lectured by Saint Margaret Jackson about what a wonderful example of MBA success she was at least every Six months. Stupid +++++.

While I fixed my post, what people do not understand is that women can be at least as bad as managers and leaders as men.

Furthermore, in our laudable efforts to be inclusive, gender neutral and politically correct, corporations have opened the door to women, homosexuals, zombies and others.

The trouble is that the first women in the queue to get board and senior management positions are/were rank opportunists who had no actual hands on experience, but the right qualifications and connections to get ahead, with obvious stand out exceptions like Gail Kelly and others.

To put that another way, there are more female "know nothing MBA qualified managers" than men. They think they are entitled to success but any criticism of their actions immediately sends them running and hiding under the skirts of their business girlfriends from where they making accusations of "sexism".

Chief among them is Saint Margaret who pontificated about her "success" to generations of aspiring MBA's when all she succeeded in doing in my opinion, was being in the right place at the right time when every public corporation in the country was being hounded by the Margaret Whitlam old girls push to shove something in a skirt onto its board.

Personally, the worst manager I have ever seen was female and had an Order of Australia to boot. She was a liar, a cheater, a rotten leader, greedy, vain and envious of real achievement to the point she even fired someone who corrected one of her administrative mistakes. She was so devious that before I knew it, I ended up buying Dunn and Bradstreet reports on other staff for her, on my personal credit card so as to be in secret, as she tried to dig up dirt on anyone she thought potentially threatened her. She destroyed corporate value. She destroyed the careers if highly competent people and she cost a certain organisation at least $250 million by my limited calculations.

You can stuff talk about the "glass ceiling" there are some terribly incompetent female managers around and, unlike men, they are almost impossible to remove.

....And a certain business school is doing its best to shove some more female wannabes into the mix - among which will no doubt be a few more revolting narcissists.

Melbourne Business School is delighted to invite you to register to attend the 2012 Women and Management Dinner to be held at the Melbourne Convention and Exhibition Centre on Wednesday 27 June.

Melbourne Business School is committed to raising awareness of key issues and opportunities for women in business. The Women and Management Dinner is one of Melbourne Business School's signature events. Each year the dinner attracts a diverse group of over 600 women and men from business, government and community. It is recognised as a leading forum for celebrating the achievement of women in management and for discussing issues of gender and diversity in the workplace.

But to get back on topic, what is killing corporations, like Qantas, all over the world is the promotion of people with no hands on experience, or bad character, or what is even worse both afflictions.

To put that another way, does anyone NOT think that the total lack of aviation experience of the Qantas Board has contributed to its current problems??????

To put that yet another way, why was there nobody on the Qantas Board who would have known from first hand experience that EVERY new aircraft type experiences unforseen technical problems of one sort ot another and that therefore preserving some excess engineering capability is only prudent?

To put that even yet another way, is there nobody on the Qantas Board who has first hand experience of being royally screwed in an outsourcing deal, and is therefore aware of the associated risks?

[WorthWhat]

WITH a market value of $2.1 billion, cash in the bank of more than $3 billion and a business that is worth more dead than alive, Qantas has gone from being an aviation predator to prey.

In the past week Qantas has lost 35 per cent of its market value as long-suffering investors have baled from the stock. The share volume, which averaged 50 million shares over each of the past four days, was significantly higher than the typical daily volume of between 6 and 8 million shares.
It suggests hedge funds and day traders are rushing onto the register in anticipation of a takeover offer or strategic partner pushing the stock price up.........

Certain carriers, investors and banks are examining the possibilities. Speculation has risen that Singapore Airlines and Emirates will look at what a potential tie-up with Qantas might look like. In the case of Singapore Airlines, if competition authorities and the federal government allowed a merger to happen, it would be a merger made in heaven. It would give Singapore access to a strong domestic business and Qantas a decent foothold in Asia.

Source: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/predator-qantas-on-its-knees-as-prey-20120610-204as.html#ixzz1xR5KYfaR (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/predator-qantas-on-its-knees-as-prey-20120610-204as.html#ixzz1xR5KYfaR)

[Algie]

Sunfish has hit a very obvious nail right on the head.

"what is killing corporations, like Qantas, all over the world is the promotion of people with no hands on experience, or bad character, or what is even worse both afflictions"

Putting aside parochial sporting passions for a moment, look at the way the AFL took on the task of setting up a new team in Sydney's west.

Their Plan

1. Put in enough money and then some

2. Put in a tried, proven, trusted, competent professional who knows the game from the boot-studders job to field to the board room. Pay him very adequately but not bazillions


3. Stand back

No rude comments about Sheedy please-its the principle that matters.

Or look at Apple: the biggest company in the world-imagine if Steve Jobs and his ilk (there were and are a lot of similar folks there at Cupertino)-imagine if it were run by wide eyed amateurs with MBAs and bright untested ideas on how to do things better than those who know. Innovation and unparalleled enthusiasm for new things are not enough by themselves. Not by a mile.

Cheers

Algie

[Bagus]

Why qantas loosing on international,Emirates sponsor the Melbourne cup,Etihad sponsor the AFL stadium,Qantas to sponsor MARDI GRAS.

[V-Jet]

Or look at Apple: the biggest company in the world-imagine if Steve Jobs and his ilk (there were and are a lot of similar folks there at Cupertino)-imagine if it were run by wide eyed amateurs with MBAs and bright untested ideas on how to do things better than those who know. Innovation and unparalleled enthusiasm for new things are not enough by themselves. Not by a mile.

Yes look at Apple. Particularly from about 1988-1998 when the so-called experts were in charge. Sadly I see Borghetti playing Steve Jobs... If he can turn around a tin pot LCC in a few short years, just imagine.... but we all have and we all know the answer:(

[notaplanegeek]

Air NZ soars towards target | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7080724/Air-NZ-soars-towards-target)

Another slap in the face for Joyce.

[SOPS]

What??? They replaced 747s with 777s???? No way...that will not save any money!!! What was Air New Zealand thinking?

(Its not too late Mr Joyce. Pick up the phone and call Boeing. You can probably get some 777s by next year, with any luck)

[The Green Goblin]

Qantas will order 777s in the future.

But only when the 777x is announced and the competition start to fly them.
Then they'll blame the unions for forcing them to buy it and saying "we told you so, but they didn't suit us (when comparing to the competitions 777x).

Yesterday's technology tomorrow remember :)

It's all about massaging the egos of the smartest men in the room.

[Sunfish]

GG:

It's all about massaging the egos of the smartest men in the room.

Too true.

If I was cynical, I would attribute QFs decision to buy the A380 in its current form to the Board and senior managements preference for the hotels and restaurants of London and Paris over Seattle and St Louis.

(maybe the delights of Hamburg as well? - just kidding)

This is simply a variation on the old refrain in the days of CAC and GAF to blame RAAF foreign purchasing decisions on the lure of associated international postings.

[Sunfish]

Mr. Joyce says "steady as she goes".

Translation: "Man the lifeboats".


QANTAS chief executive Alan Joyce has made it clear the airline will not rush into selling more assets, such as its air-freight stakes, because shareholders do not want the airline ''overreacting to the situation and making wrong decisions''.

Speaking after a week in which more than $1 billion was wiped from Qantas' value following a shock profit downgrade, Mr Joyce again rejected suggestions that the airline would have to resort to a capital raising to retain its investment-grade credit rating.

He said Qantas was trading at a ''fraction'' of its inherent value. The sum of the parts was ''definitely worth more than the $2.2 billion'' at which the market was valuing it, Mr Joyce said.
Advertisement: Story continues below

His comments on the sidelines of a gathering of airline chief executives in Beijing yesterday came as the International Air Transport Association downgraded its forecasts for airline earnings in the Asia-Pacific region this year by $US300 million to $US2 billion due to a weak first quarter.

Despite Qantas' share price closing at a record low of 97¢ on Friday, Mr Joyce insisted that the airline still had the confidence of its shareholders and the board. He cited its biggest, Capital Group, buying an extra 2 per cent of the airline shares late last week.

''I absolutely know that all of the board is completely solid behind us,'' he said. ''We [will] continue with the strategy [to turn around Qantas' loss-making international operations] and I believe fundamentally that the underlying value of the company will come through in the share price.''

The dismal forecast for the world's aviation industry has highlighted that Qantas is not alone in facing a troubled outlook. Singapore Airlines posted a loss in the March quarter.

Mr Joyce attributed part of the selloff in Qantas shares late last week to heavy pressure from hedge funds and a belief in the market that the airline would be forced to raise equity to maintain its investment-grade credit rating.

Analysts have pointed out that Qantas does have levers to pull to avoid a capital raising, such as further deferrals of aircraft orders and selling non-core assets.

The assets include 50 per cent of air-freight companies Star Track Express and Australian Air Express, and travel agency Jetset Travelworld. Macquarie Equities analysts say the businesses have a combined value of up to $375 million.

While Qantas has made clear it does plan to sell non-core assets, Mr Joyce said it would not rush into offloading them unless it could realise their maximum value.

''We have a core strategy, we're not changing it,'' he said.

The reporter travelled to Beijing courtesy of China Southern and IATA.

Read more: No rush to sell more assets: Qantas chief (http://www.theage.com.au/business/no-rush-to-sell-more-assets-qantas-chief-20120611-2060f.html#ixzz1xWiPywnh)

[ejectx3]

Would he mind telling us what that strategy is after red q went nowhere?

[Mstr Caution]

No sign Qantas shares will pull up from dive | businessday.com.au (http://m.businessday.com.au/business/no-sign-qantas-shares-will-pull-up-from-dive-20120611-205zn.html)

Another opinion of the share price.

More sellers than buyers in large volumes, but AJ maintains he's got the support of shareholders?

[WorthWhat]

Not so sure. Given the following public announcement, the share price may well bounce.
The Dubai-based carrier is examining a “Commercial Arrangement” with Qantas to benefit from the Australian aviation market while stopping short of an equity stake in the Sydney-based airline, Emirates president Tim Clark said in an interview with Bloomberg Television in Beijing....

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Opened up 6% at 1.03. Somebody is buying...

[ampclamp]

Fed sec, after that kind of precipitous fall, often there is a recovery especially when they are still going to be making a small profit and are backed by a good cash pile. Could be a dead cat bounce but more likely bargain hunters. often you can get a good trade when gaps in trading prices fill or get a retracement using Fibonacci numbers.

[BPA]

From the Brisbane times.

Shares in Qantas Airways have rallied more than 7 per cent after the Australian Financial Review reported that the carrier appointed a team to defend against a possible hostile takeover attempt.

Qantas has tapped Macquarie Group to defend against a possible bid after it lost a third of its value last week following a profit warning, the AFR said, without naming any sources.

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has also appointed Citigroup to monitor the company's share register for any raiders, the paper added.

Advertisement: Story continues below
The shares rose 7.2 per cent to $1.04, having plunged to an all-time low of 96 cents last week in the wake of a profit downgrade.

Reuters



Read more: Qantas soars on takeover defence talk (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/qantas-soars-on-takeover-defence-talk-20120612-206wk.html#ixzz1xXKjfLbG)

[billyt]

Watch them ease back at close.

[ohallen]

Amazing...they spend more money on consultants to maintain the status quo in circumstances all of the making of a select few. How much will this exercise cost $100m yet again????
One day they will actually run a competitive airline, but I doubt it.

[Fly_by_wire]

I thought the motley fool summed it up well

Saving Qantas
We’d respectfully suggest Mr Joyce and his merry men and women at Qantas first focus on saving the business from going bust than from any predator.

You wouldn’t catch us buying shares in any company on the outside chance it might be taken over. For all the takeover rumours, very few actually come to fruition.

[hiwaytohell]

Here's a thought! Why don't QF staff and unions buy up a controlling stake?

At the current share price it would probably only take about $20,000 per employee! Maybe less to get enough Board seats to make a difference.

It would put a new twist on putting your "money where your mouth is"!!!

[Superman1]

"Speaking on the condition of anonymity, a senior Qantas official said the airline feared any full takeover would result in a breakup of the its different businesses, while any investor taking a partial stake may be a destabilising force as the airline tried to negotiate a difficult operating environment.

It emerged in 2011 a group led by former Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon was looking at making a bid for the Australian flag carrier.

Mr Joyce on Tuesday said he believed the group's core businesses were worth more together than each individual component.

"Qantas as a whole I think is worth more than the sum of its parts because I think a lot of the businesses have an interaction together that is very important," he said."


Joyce wouldn't want them split......his poor JQ would fall on its face having to make its own way!

[Jack Ranga]

Shock :E Horror :E Isn't ANZ a...........a..............Legacy Carrier????????

And Joyce is NOT an Australian, he still holds an Irish passport, he's an opportunist

[Inertia17]

He is also a muppet. I don't believe there has ever been a more tolerant shareholder group as this. Abysmal performance, and still the wretch is at the helm.

[AEROMEDIC]

Now..... I wonder how they will pay for the 787's they have now locked in for delivery.....

There's more bad news to come I'm afraid, and the share price is about to hit new lows.
When the ratings agencies review the company, and that's very soon, the current financial arrangements go down the toilet....:sad:

[27/09]

Qantas has tapped Macquarie Group to defend against a possible bid

A bit like putting the fox in charge of the hen house I would say.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

An aggressive take over would not be a bad thing.

The Qantas Sale Act still protects the company, and the new owner would definitely take a very large broom to the present management team.

A win win really.

So it would appear AJ and company are protecting their personal incomes, nothing more.

[teresa green]

Shed Dog Tosser, well I hope your right. Todays SMH has a article where Singleton declares he is interested. He states that QF is undervalued, and that gives me the creeps. You don't have to be real smart to work out what He, Dixon and Carnagie have in mind. Assett selling thats what. FF, QF International, JQ, et al. And keep domestic, that will keep the present Govt happy and stay within the guidelines. We all know that QF has enemies the biggest being Clifford and Joyce, but we can add these three to the mix.

[ampclamp]

SDT , Teresa, The takeover or break up will either be from within or without.

Neither will be pretty or good for the majority, I feel the reason they have engaged Mac bank is to ensure the game is played by their rules in their time frame not by someone else.

The result will probably be similar but who scores the spoils is the name of the game. Powerful , wealthy people doing what they do.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

The selling of one star would be a smart thing for Qantas, take the cash injection.

We would have a new competitor, that I think QF and VB would be able to make short work of.

Whoever purchased one star would then have to make this business both stand alone and profitable. Good luck.

I do not think the new owners of one star will be able to pull it off.

VB and QF will drop prices, god forbid, QF might start offering, what is that word again,,,,,,service, and I believe one star would go the way of the dodo, or move permanently into the "lush" overseas based asian LCC market and die on foreign soils.

To allay fears of "1980 style the sum of the parts is worth more than the purchase price", the QF brand, the white kangaroo etc etc is an amazing international brand, worth in dollar terms far more than the sale price of the terminals and aircraft, any corporate raider would have to see that.

What exactly can Mac bank do ?, the shares are for sale on the open stock exchange, who buys the shares is who ever has the money, what exactly are Mac bank capable of "controlling" ?.

[Condition 1]

All this, of course, is criminal activity. The deliberate engineering of failure and the long term collusion with buyers.

Joyce always uses the phrase "I t(h)ink..." when relaying information.

If I said "I think I'll rob that bank" I have committed no crime. I haven't even stated an intention, just a throw away line. I can repeat that statement ad nauseum until people are sick of hearing it and still no crime. In fact, they'll eventually ignore me. The police may watch me, but until I actually rob the bank their hands are tied. But when I do, they come to get me.

Everyone who commits a premeditated crime believes they can get away with it with planning. Ask any criminologist.

Same here. They have never stated intentions of deliberately killing the share price or the airline, just slowly manipulated QF route structure, bad mouthed the airline, asset and route transferred to JQ etc. They set up "defencive" units to prevent "hostile" take overs ( not friendly premeditated ones mind you).

But, when the crime is committed ASIC (hopefully) will be all over it. Gaol terms will ensue. Sadly though, the bank will still have been robbed, and the customer, Mum & Dad shareholder, and staff will be left decimated.

[Jackneville]

These days I tend not to believe many of the things that I read in national news papers, especially when the statements come from either politicians or high profile business people.
I think they use the media only in an attempt to
manipulate...........and if you assume almost the opposite of what is being said, you might be closer to the truth than taking the statements on face value.

After a family association that started with Qf in the 1940's, I despair at what is now happening.

[teresa green]

SDT, if JQ goes, then QF domestic will have to go towards being a LCC. The punters don't give a ****e about a ham and mustard sandwich on a plate, they prefer buying a muffin on JQ and have cheaper airfares. If JQ goes on the market, the buyer would probably be either SQ, the Arabs, or the possibility of the miners, Forrest, Palmer, Tinkler et al. who could buy and sell Dixon et al. Why the Miners? They would utilise aircraft for FIFO as well as general domestic, own the mines, own the transport, they would be laughing. Despite the attempt by Gillard and Swan, the punters like them, they employ thousands, they are known to be good to their employees, and sink millions into charity. I think they have both the goodwill and resources to pull it off, if they so want. I would not write JQ off, not for a minute.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Employee survey results coming in show that JQ employees are even more disengaged than those at QF.

[teresa green]

Of course they are Fed, treated like mushrooms, foreign crews taking Australians jobs, they have every reason to feel the same as QF people, if you ask either at any airport, they both have the same answer, its all up to ****e. Both JQ and QF people hang around together these days, they all recognise vilifying the other is a waste of time and halves the people power, even some of the QF tech crew, who before up the track, ignored their fellow countrymen, showing their disdain for JQ and what it stands for, have got over it. They now realise they are all in this together. My son was bailed up in NRT by a 50's something QF Captain, who showed his disdain of a two man crew on the A330, my son exasperated, said, mate we are not going to the moon just back to OOL. The Skipper walked off with a expletive fired at my bloke. That same QF Skipper bought my son a drink in the same crew bar in NRT last week. Things have changed. United we stand, etc etc etc.

[V-Jet]

Employee survey results coming in show that JQ employees are even more disengaged than those at QF.

For that to be possible means Qf drivers are more engaged than I thought they would be:)

[The The]

Just watch the $3 billion cash disappear overnight if Singo and Dixon take a stake in the airline. The article in the SMH has Singo salivating at the thought of getting his hands on the cash. Everything else will be flogged off, everything!

Dixon didn't care less about the airline when he was employed by it, he was in it for himself alone. If he owns it, god help us all!

[teresa green]

QF shares have gone up 2 cents, due to the possibility of a takeover. ABC midday.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just a stab in the dark here but could it be that Alan has called upon a few old mates to talk up the prospect of a takeover to lift a lowly share price?

Would it be illegal for Qantas to appoint McQ to protect against a hostile takeover if they themselves were involved in a takeover?

Why am I getting calls from investment advisors asking about the feeling within the employee groups?

[ohallen]

Glad those investment advisors are not looking after my super. They must be the only ones in town who don't know what is going on out at Mascot.
Don't suppose they were from Macquarie?

[teresa green]

If those three invest, it will be nothing more than a rerun of Ansett. I don't think I could stomach another one.

[balance]

I admit to not knowing much about the share market, running a company, or M & A, yet everything that I am reading tends to indicate insider trading...

When do the authorities become involved in such madness?

[V-Jet]

Why am I getting calls from investment advisors asking about the feeling within the employee groups?

Are they asking how the employees feel about QF management, or are these investment advisors showing a sudden empathy for the internal organs of those employees after decades of shafting:):)

[ampclamp]

Why am I getting calls from investment advisors asking about the feeling within the employee groups?

It is good advisors are contacting other people beyond the usual corporate contacts.

I am heartened by this and means they are not convinced about the info being put out officially .

[Shed Dog Tosser]

I'd be interested to know if the alleged six CEO's that rang AJ with congratulations during the grounding, would still be high - fiveing him and raising their glasses to toast AJ, wishing they could do the same in their respective organisations ?.

It just boggles the mind.

[Adamastor]

Does this answer your question, SDT?

Date: 12 June 2012

Qantas’ Joyce is the new IATA Chairman

Beijing - The International Air Transport Association (IATA) announced that Qantas Airways CEO and Managing Director Alan Joyce has assumed his duties as Chairman of the IATA Board of Governors. Joyce succeeds KLM President and CEO Peter Hartman, whose one-year term expired at the conclusion of the Association’s 68th Annual General Meeting (AGM) and World Air Transport Summit in Beijing. Joyce’s appointment is effective immediately and is for one year, ending with the conclusion of IATA’s 69th AGM, to be held in Cape Town, South Africa.

A 24-year veteran of the airline industry, Joyce has led Qantas since November 2008. He was CEO of Jetstar from 2003 to 2008. Prior to that, he spent over 15 years in leadership positions at Qantas, Ansett, and Aer Lingus. Joyce is the third Qantas CEO to serve as Chairman of IATA’s Board of Governors, following most recently James Strong (1999-2000).

“IATA plays a critical role in the industry and I am honored to take on the role of leading its Board of Governors. The top priorities, as always, will be safety, security, and sustainability. On top of that, I want to see IATA continue to deliver value to its members by being a strong advocate for the industry. Aviation delivers enormous economic benefits—supporting some 57 million jobs and $2.2 trillion in economic activity. We need to ensure that governments understand what is at stake when they are making key decisions on taxes, regulation, and capacity expansion,” said Joyce.

“Our Association owes a debt of gratitude to Peter Hartman, for his resolute leadership of IATA during a challenging year. The European sovereign debt crisis put new pressures on the air transport industry. Along with this, global political tension rose as a result of Europe’s unilateral and extra-territorial inclusion of aviation in its Emissions Trading Scheme,” said Tony Tyler, IATA’s Director General and CEO. “I would also like to thank Peter for his personal support and guidance during my first year in office.

“I am confident that Alan is the right person to lead IATA’s Board of Governors as the Association strives to deliver even greater value to our members. Our ambitious agenda over the next year includes developing the foundation standards for a new distribution capability, pushing forward progress on Checkpoint of the Future, and working through the International Civil Aviation Organization to achieve a global approach on positive economic measures to help manage aviation’s 2% contribution to manmade carbon emissions. All of this will be done in an economic environment that is likely to become even more challenging,” said Tyler.

IATA also announced that the Board of Governors appointed Richard Anderson, CEO of Delta Air Lines, to serve as Chairman from June 2013, following Joyce’s term.

For more information, please contact:
Corporate Communications
AGM Media Centre Tel: +86 10 6505 0879
Email: [email protected]

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Pffft,,,,,,,,,, fluff.

They've already announced next years Chairman ( from Jun 2013 ).

[Traffic]

Tony..tell us this is your worst nightmare!

Lots of jive about QF being worth more in bits than as a whole...generally by those who couldn't pick their own mother in a line-up.

The engine room of QF Group is the FF program. Without QF Intnl...the FF program is dead. It has been used to make QF domestic look good at the expense of intnl simply to meet the objectives of the board and AJ.

Dickson,Clifford and their bunny Joyce have set the snowball off down the hill but have no idea what will happen next. When Willie is singing your praises...God help us.

[Acute Instinct]

Fight, flight or fright for Qantas?

By Ticky Fullerton (http://www.abc.net.au/news/ticky-fullerton/3299526)
Updated June 14, 2012 07:51:54
http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/66850-3x2-340x227.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-13/qantas-planes-at-sydney-airport/4068970) Photo: Qantas has weathered fuel prices, SARS, terrorism and a recalcitrant Australian dollar, but is the end nigh? (Tim Wimborne: Reuters) (Tim Wimborne: Reuters) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-13/qantas-planes-at-sydney-airport/4068970)

Surely this has to be Alan Joyce's annus horribilis? Shares in the flying kangaroo hopped under a dollar on Friday before being saved by 'vulture thinking' of a potential takeover.
A major restructure announced in August last year flagging a thousand job cuts and two new Asian carriers, was within a few weeks overshadowed by an unprecedented grounding of Qantas flights worldwide. Then in May another restructure, this time more cosmetic, perhaps to reveal more clearly to the market (and the unions) just how much of a dead weight Qantas International had become. That reality emerged just two weeks later: a downgrade revealing a 90 per cent drop in annual profit for the Group with the international division to lose $450 million. And so finally, a 34 per cent skydive in the share price.
The massive expansion of particularly sovereign backed Middle Eastern airlines has meant that today, just 18.7 per cent of passengers travel in and out of Australia on a Qantas plane. And a Chinese onslaught is only just beginning: China Southern being the latest, last week announcing its new London Guangzhou Sydney flight, the Canton route, in direct competition to the Kangaroo route. Meanwhile, there's not a word more from Qantas on the premium hub that might be developed in Asia.

Full article: Fight, flight or fright for Qantas? - The Drum (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-13/fullerton-flight-or-fright-for-qantas/4068968)

[maybegunnadoo]

What I find most frustrating over this whole debacle is the media keep asking the wrong questions. This article is typical. I can find a dozen on the web from all around the world, from all different sources all repeating the same item "Qantas International is a basket case and is losing X millions"

Whan will Four Corners or some whistle blower come out with the accounting numbers from Qantas that prove or disprove this! When will Joyce et al get put under sustained pressure to open the books and show how the costings are awarded in the Qantas group.

I agree that change needs to happen, but what is occuring is so disheartening and Un-Australian. :(

[1a sound asleep]

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce "very p*ssed off" with Boeing over 787 Dreamliner delays - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-ceo-very-p-ssed-off-with-boeing-over-787-dreamliner-delays)

Let's blame everybody else except me - I am perfect

Joyce also says the airline had been hit with its "highest ever" fuel bill, which is likely to nudge A$4.4 billion for the year to June 30 – an increase of $700m over the previous 12 months.
Joyce said he was "very pissed off" with Boeing for the 787's late arrival, as the next-gen jetliner had "an unbelievably lower cost base".
This includes drinking 20 per cent less fuel and a longer period between maintenance checks compared to today's aircraft.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Heard on radio 6PR, Perth, 1030 'Financial Report', that

Lindsay Fox and (Paul ?) Little are making a take-over bid.......

Interesting..... (AAh, to have that much $$'s...)
:ok:

[Ndicho Moja]

1a sound asleep:
May I, respectfully, suggest you have a read of the PPRUNE CHANGE OF PRIVACY POLICY thread?

[Lodown]

Possible???...An Australian consortium purchases Qantas, splits the company into two, on-sells the domestic unit to international interests, routes, rights and all, and collects huge payout; dissolves the international unit or operates as Jetstar, sells the routes, aircraft and collects huge payout; sells off other assets and collects huge payout. Not a bad deal to be part of.

[ampclamp]

Qantas: who ran down the roo? (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-who-ran-down-the-roo-20120614-20bvt.html)
The message is out now well and truly.

[Shark Patrol]

who ran down the roo?, michael pascoe

Finally, an article by a mainstream journalist who has a high public profile. Maybe Ben Sandilands is no longer the sole voice in the wilderness who is asking the right questions!

[FGD135]

... from all different sources all repeating the same item "Qantas International is a basket case and is losing X millions"

maybegunnadoo,

If you open your mind for a second you may realise, that maybe, just maybe, what they are all saying is actually the truth.

While your mind is open, try looking at this question from a different angle:

How can Qantas International NOT be in big trouble given:

1. The huge decline, and expected continued decline, in their market share;
2. Their significantly greater labour costs as compared to their competitors?

[ohallen]

I think this market share is a complete distraction. The key is load factors and revenue. If the market has grown and new entrants have come in, then other than pressure on prices it should have minimal effect provided costs are contained.

Some costs at the Rat are certainly higher than competition (eg CEO wages and ex CEO payouts) but would you believe this lot on anything they sprout without seeing the facts first??

Seems to me the real issues are wrong/inefficient fleet and withdrawal from revenue routes without replacement which will undoubtedly make costs look awful.

Its about time there was some non company sourced facts to back up the spin to suit whatever purpose they have.

[Livs Hairdresser]

FGD,

If you open your mind you would understand that Qantas staff do have open minds. One of managements' more significant failures (and there have been many of them) has been their refusal to communicate with the staff and take advantage of this.

Want to start Red Q to save the company? Fine, you'll have my full support when you can explain exactly what your strategy is and why it will be profitable, particularly in the context of the plethora of unprofitable international subsidiaries we already have.

QF Int is bleeding money and you want me to take a pay cut? No worries at all, but can you explain to my satisfaction the various instances where it appears costs are being transferred from JQ to QF.

How many of the ALAEA's 60 odd questions did they answer? Rather than spend a few dollars and a rainy Saturday afternoon putting together a powerpoint presentation, they'd rather spend $100M and ground the airline. How is that good management?

The reality is most QF staff would like to trust management, but until they start communicating with us in an open and transparent manner it will never happen.

[booglaboy]

How can the fuel bill be so excessive when qantas is contracting international services, retiring 747's and classic 737's. Seems to me there is probs with the fuel hedging policy.
? With the oz dollar at record highs, the increased fuel price is offset. I'm no Rhodes scholar but every financial statement this management makes is full of inaccuracies,lies and total distortion of the truth. We all know all additional costs r attributed to international. Come on journo's and other insiders. Do some investigating and the truth can be revealed and perhaps we can export aj and his team offshore for good

[Mstr Caution]

Qantas raises fuel charge again | Australian Aviation Magazine (http://australianaviation.com.au/2012/04/qantas-raises-fuel-charge-again/)

Jetstar will also increase fares on some routes within both its Singapore and Australian markets, the airline said.

My bold.

How come QF increases domestic & international fares due fuel surcharges & JQ only increases fares (& or service charges) on some routes?

MC

[ejectx3]

There's a reason for loss of market share for Cliff's sake! They've either given it to Jetstar or made such a bad product (frequency/timing/price/IFE/old a/c) that punters have left in droves. So either the loss is fiction or the loss is real and it's management's fault!

[tartare]

I imagine if you total up all the CEO payouts, payments to the Board, Senior Management and to consultants etc over the last few years you'd probably not have much change out of several hundred million?
That's only the price of an airliner or two, maybe three - right?
Those expenses pale into insignificance with the other expenses the airline is facing... and the size of it's overall labour bill... correct?
The world has changed, and Fortress Australia can't hold back history or the economic forces any longer.
No union can protect you... sad, but true.
Bit of a reality check needed by many who are complaining here.
Why is QF currently in crisis?
Maybe - just maybe you all need to look in the mirror:ouch:
And no - I'm not a troll BTW...

[Mstr Caution]

Tatare.

Shall we add the freight cartel fines to the couple of hundred million?

The long haul EBA co-existed with high fuel prices, competition, fluctuating exchange rates & natural disasters.

The only new phenomenon to the equation is the current CEO, nil shareholder dividends & a tanked share price.

If only QF executives matched the wage freezes post September 11 & SARS & a 3% headline rate since. But then again, they are a special bunch.

[tartare]

Don't get me wrong guys.
I feel very sorry for all of you.
Realistically though - I don't think you can blame Joyce.
Because no-one's had the gonads to make some tough calls up until now, you're backed into a corner.
As much as I hate to say it - I think the only way out of this mess is mass redundancies - i.e. cutting the workforce by as much as 30 per cent - moving you all to Jetstar terms and conditions, closing Mascot and moving everything to Brissy.
Otherwise you just won't be able to keep up with your competition - you'll be rooted.

[Ollie Onion]

Yes, the Qantas Staff are on outrageously good contracts when you compare them against 99% of the other airlines in the world and at some point they will have to be reworked if Qantas wants to be able to be competitive in the future.

What we have to remember though is that all of these deals were agreed between TWO parties and both those parties should be honoring them now. The staff (particularly pilots) should fight to maintain their terms and conditions. It is a disgrace the way that AJ and his cronies are going about dismantling the airline so that they can circumvent these agreed deals. What it does show though is that if you let these things build up over a period of time when it comes to having to make adjustments you are looking at one hell of a chop as opposed to just trimming around the edges.

[Mstr Caution]

Tartare.

The short sighted cost cutting over the last 4 years has back fired.

You have to spend money on product, aircraft & the best people to make money.

Jetstar Asia have Jetstar pay & conditions but have failed to deliver profits.

Perhaps a question for Joyce, will Jetstar terms & conditions at Qantas mainline return international to profit?

[SOPS]

Commenting now on radio in Perth...."Someone is buying shares in Qantas, a takeover bid is looming"....maybe a last the media mammoth is moving, albeit very late, and will be able to see what we have all been talking about for months.

[tartare]

Ollie - my point precisely about lack of gonads in the past.
The pilots priced themselves out of the market.
If I negotiate an uneconomic short term deal for myself - then I only have myself to blame when in the long run I become too expensive.
Mstr - you're way way beyond the point of investing money to make money.
The business is suffering from fundamental structural problems... it's got gangrene.
Amputation of a limb or two is the only option.
Or nationalisation.
And I think Gillard et al have a few more pressing issues to deal with.

[V-Jet]

Tartare: Most Qf drivers could increase their pay by going to the sandpit, any number of other places or (in certain circumstances) even Jetstar.

It is the ultimate Qf spin that Qantas pilots and engineers have priced themselves out of the market.

I for one have my exit visa stamps and there are many others - to the tune of more than one a week for the last year -MORE than one- and out of a total pool of some few thousand that is a lot.

If it were that good, why would anyone be leaving?

Answer - it is NOT good and people aren't just leaving, in many cases they are leaving aviation altogether, and further, they are being swamped in the rush....

The business has been all but destroyed by self aggrandising incompetents paying themselves millions at the expense of a once wonderful company.

They should be criminally liable.

[ejectx3]

Myth: Jetstar pilots are cheaper than qf pilots.

Fact: qf pilots ate being under utilised but still being paid giving the impression they are uneconomical.

[Redpanda]

You'd be surprised at the amount of QF Lames that would be earning quite a bit more, if they were on Jetstar or Virgin terms and conditions.........

[Mstr Caution]

Tartare.

My point entirely.

Management have FAILED to invest time, resources, focus and the necessary capital in the Qantas mainline business over the last 7 Plus years which has led us to the current situation.

[SOPS]

Where is our friend, The Senator? Is it not time he had something to say about all of this?

[busdriver007]

He is in Hospital....We need more like him that keep the faith and focus on National Interest and not self interest....

[Sunfish]

There are Two sorts of "Corporate Defences" against takeovers:

1. A defence team of merchant bankers, advisors and managers who clean up the company and make its share price increase so that it is too expensive for a raider to acquire.

2. A team of merchant bankers, advisors and managers who ensure that the share price will fall further if the current managers and Board controlling the company are removed - thus making the company too repellant for a raider to acquire. This method is termed the "poison pill" defence.

I was on the fringes of one such defence in 1985. An "entrepreneur" made a bid for Email Limited - a large manufaturer of white goods in Australia - Westinghouse, Frigidiare, Simpson, chef, Kelvinator, etc. etc. It was gradually going down the tubes thanks to over enthusiastic cost cutting and a complete lack of innovation.

The Entrepreneur made an on market bid for the princely sum of about $1.00 per share which the Board resisted.......

Then a little bird whispered something into the Entrepreneurs ear: - It was about the brands: The most important ones Frigidiare and Kelvinator were not actually owned by Email Ltd. they were foreign brands used subject to a "Gentlemens agreement" under which Email used the trade names in Australia. The "poison pill" was the intimation that the gentlemans agreement would be cancelled if the current Board and managment lost control of the company- which could have completely destroyed the companys refrigerator manufacturing business which was huge. In other words, there was a "cancellation on change of control" clause.

The Entrepreneur didn't raise his bid and sweated buckets until it expired.

The poor widows and orphans kept their shares in the company which eventually expired and was broken up in 2001 - having been a corporate basket case for another Fifteen years.


Now guess what sort of corporate defence the current Qantas Board and management will mount?

[teresa green]

Tartare, perhaps you could give us some idea why TE is humming along so nicely? Little problem there.

[tartare]

Sorry Teresa - TE - please clarify?

[1a sound asleep]

TE is Air New Zealand's former IATA airline code

[tartare]

Ah - I see - I wondered if that's what you were referring to...
Yes, I can give some insight.
Again - not wanting to troll you all - but here's what happened, and it may make tough reading.
When I joined NZ, one of the first things that Robbie and a certain ex NZ employee who is now working for you did - was sack 600 LAMEs.
They outsourced heavy engine maintenance.
Holy heck - the sh1t hit the fan.
The unions screamed - circulated the usual photos of busted engines repaired with seatbelts - dire warnings about safety, loss of certain trades forever etc.
The media were in an uproar.
Do you know what happened?
Precisely... nothing.
The jets kept flying, no-one died, the airline didn't stop.
That move sent a very important message - don't mess with us, we are going to reform the business whether you like it or not.
And they did - the next stop was corporate - approx 20 per cent cost out.
It was brutal.
But it was also a clear commercially focused message to the workforce that things had to change - and were going to.
Now - the difference with NZ is that there's also $800 million of Govt money in there propping it up.
QF is a different proposition - it has to exist as a pure commercial entity.
Which makes control of costs even more of an imperative.
Look at it from a bankers point of view - "You want more of my money invested in your airline? Well, you show me you can live within your means first."
I can't control the cost of Singapore jet.
But I can control the cost of labour.
Again - watching this all is very sad - having been through it all before.
But it just seems absolutely inevitable what your management team have to do.

[ejectx3]

If they control the cost of their own labour then staff would be more willing to come to the party...the trough guzzling whilst slashing and cutting is obscene.

[BD1959]

I'm bemused by all the talk of high fuel bills - has anyone looked at Platts lately?

Over the last 3 months, the price globally has *dropped* by about 17% in US$ terms, though it has started to upturn again in the last few days.

What's the AU$ done against the US$ in that time - gained about 5%?

Can someone explain to me why fuel surcharges continue to increase?

Regards,

BD

[billyt]

Qantas' Joyce is the new IATA Chairman | Voxy.co.nz (http://www.voxy.co.nz/business/qantas-joyce-new-iata-chairman/5/126131)

Someone likes him.

[Sunfish]

Tartare:

When I joined NZ, one of the first things that Robbie and a certain ex NZ employee who is now working for you did - was sack 600 LAMEs.
They outsourced heavy engine maintenance.
Holy heck - the sh1t hit the fan.
The unions screamed - circulated the usual photos of busted engines repaired with seatbelts - dire warnings about safety, loss of certain trades forever etc.
The media were in an uproar.
Do you know what happened?
Precisely... nothing.
The jets kept flying, no-one died, the airline didn't stop.
That move sent a very important message - don't mess with us, we are going to reform the business whether you like it or not.
And they did - the next stop was corporate - approx 20 per cent cost out.
It was brutal.
But it was also a clear commercially focused message to the workforce that things had to change - and were going to.

I'm sorry Tartare, but you just don't get it. Nobody, especially not me, is denying the right of any company to trim its workforce or make major changes for self preservation. However what all of us are commenting on is the totally inept, inefficient way Qantas is trying to do it!:ugh::ugh:

If your organisation needs to kick the staff in the backside and downsize then you do it, but you do it FAST and CLEAN!!! You do not do what Qantas has been doing for at least Ten years:


- Destabilising and stressing their workforce.

- Presiding over an endless "change process" of reviews by consultants and self aggrandizing management - immortalised by Margaret Jackson.

Today it appears to me that any Qantas employee is totally uncertain about their future which is an absolute and major dereliction of duty by the Board and Management.

As CEO you get to lose sleep over dealing with uncertainty and thinking the unthinkable - it is your job - managing and coping with uncertainty in order to give your frontline staff a certain predictable work environment in which they can deliver high quality goods and services to your customers.

Your staff are not paid to deal with uncertainty, YOU are! Yet what does Qantas management do???? Maximises staff uncertainty which leads to rotten morale and low quality performance.


To put that another way, what do you think would have happened to Air New Zealand if Fyffe had announced a nine month consultants review after which unspecified cuts would be made? What if the staff were constantly bombarded with messages designed to divide and conquer= "maybe you will have a job next year and maybe not"? What if he had stayed in some ivory tower in Auckland all the time instead of showing himself to the staff and leading by example?

[HF3000]

Best.Post.Ever.

[Arnold E]

I blame the new schools of management that churn them out unable to make decisions without hiring consultants.

Hmmm, interesting, is it the fault of the schools for turning these people out? or the board for continuing to employ these people, pray tell??:confused::confused:

[blueloo]

Hmmm, interesting, is it the fault of the schools for turning these people out? or the board for continuing to employ these people, pray tell??

Arnold E,

why not make a decision, and come to your own conclusion on that? :}

[Arnold E]

why not make a decision, and come to your own conclusion on that? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

I would have thought that the fact that I have questioned this would have indicated that I already have. :E:E

[SOPS]

This is getting interesting

Qantas Fire-Sale Discount Seen Inviting LBO After Plummet - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-17/qantas-fire-sale-discount-seen-inviting-lbo-after-plummet.html)

[piston broke again]

69.7 million shares traded today...seems someone is buying in?

[maybegunnadoo]

ABC The DRUM

The story of Fairfax's decline is one of managerial failure. The company has been run by senior executives and boards with no direct experience of running a media company. Instead, leaders at Fairfax have been property developers, management consultants, accountants, and rugby players. Those people did not have the experience or understanding of a people-media business to steer the ship into safe waters. Instead, they allowed Fairfax to remain at sea while competitors savaged the business. One by one Fairfax was stripped of its classified advertising "rivers of gold". The jobs went to Seek.com.au; cars to Carsales.co.au; homes to Realestate.com.au.

And shorn of those easy revenues, the only way Fairfax CEOs could "stay in the game" was to cut costs faster than revenues fell (all the while pocketing eye-watering salaries and bonuses).

Instead of having the foresight to embrace and invest in the digital age by bringing together mastheads to work collegiately, Fairfax leadership instead chose to separate the online team from the print team and run them as two distinct businesses, with "Fairfax Digital" competing for advertising revenues with the so-called "Fairfax Publishing". In 2007, I was asked to lead a team of three senior executives to visit the most progressive newspaper/media companies in the US and UK and report back to the then CEO, David Kirk. We went to the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, USA Today, Washington Post, The London Telegraph, The Financial Times and The Guardian.

We reported back to Kirk that every one of these had brought together "print" and "digital" into one resource; that is, one editorial team, one advertising team and one back office. Kirk flatly opposed doing the same on the grounds the two businesses were both very profitable. And he wanted to keep it that way.

Five years later, with the company's market value slashed from $7 billion to just over $1 billion, this integration will finally be imposed next month.

And for the first time in living memory, the change will be led by a former journalist and senior editor, the CEO, Greg Hywood, along with the advice of consultants Bain & Co (Mitt Romney's crew).

But it's too late to save the Fairfax we know. The share price has collapsed from $5 to 60c or less because no one in the market believes there is a coherent strategy for the company. And that has left the company weak and defenceless to predators such as Rinehart.

- For Fairfax read Qantas...
- For the lovely Gina read Messers Dixon et al...
- For 'Team of Senior Executives' read any one of several unions ...


And finally why can this get written up in mainline media straight away and not the Qantas debacle?

[moa999]

Please tell me how any experience "media" directors would have helped save Fairfax... Fairfax has been attacked by the Internet - ie New Media, an industry that didn't exist 10 years ago.... meanwhile it has been strangled by an inflexible workforce, high cost structure and entrenched workforces....

Now does that sound familiar.

[packrat]

Fairfax was at a crossroad ten years ago.It should've began developing an online presence then.Instead over the same 10 year period it has invested $3.5 Billion and seen profit decline and losses accrue to over $400 million.
That sounds more familiar:No vision,no forward planning and capital squandered on the wrong plant

[27/09]

- For 'Team of Senior Executives' read any one of several unions ...????????????????????

Please explain.

[Keg]

Fairfax is dying because they sell a crappy product and have taken their readers for granted having presumed to tell them what's good for them. They're not prepared to listen to outsiders, they're not prepared to spend the money where it's needed. Qantas would NEVER be accused of that. Oh, wait...... :ugh: :E

[denabol]

Plane Talking has another piece of Qantas today, no two, as the other is about more seats and less dunnies on the reconfigured A380s which sounds more like pissing on the customers than pissing them off.

Qantas A380 refit means more seats less toilets | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/06/19/qantas-a380-refit-means-more-seats-less-toilets/)

I cut this out of the second item looking on what other analysts think of Qant.

this analysis is a reminder that if Qantas continues to reduce its exposure to international operations in order to somehow become better placed to expand it in the future, it is toast. Every time Qantas retreats, whether in terms of modern fleet acquisitions, or physical network, or through a failure to address by whatever means, new fast growing city pairs, its competitors advance.
There is nothing like a Qantas vacuum to attract alternative carriers. And once they are in place, like Emirates, or Cathay Pacific/Dragonair to Hong Kong or China, future dislodgement is problematical. Opportunities in air transport can’t just be put in the ‘fridge for future use. They have to be taken when they arise, or forever lost.


At the end Ben hints Qantas was late telling the ASX about its loss because a deal with Emirates fell through at the last minute. .

[Taildragger67]

From Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking):

Jetstar is a really good reason to fly Singapore Airlines, or Cathay Pacific/Dragonair

:}

[Sarcs]

Qantas Asia chances critiqued, and a note from Emirates | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/06/19/qantas-asia-chances-critiqued-and-a-note-from-emirates/)

Ben is close to the nub of the flying rat woes:

Planetalking:
A more interesting issue is why Emirates would issue such a statement in Australia? It closely follows the recently brief excitement over a possible closer relationship with Emirates, which closely followed Qantas suddenly remembering to make an exceptionally late filing of a profit downgrade to the ASX, with devastating consequences for the share price.

No answer is offered here, other than to note that Qantas is under the dual threats of a rating downgrade and a leveraged buy out, assuming the risks for a private equity punt at this stage, in terms of global finance, and locally, in terms of the state of Qantas, are not too high

[B772]

piston broke again

.....seems someone is selling !.

Share Trading software showed QF as a sell on Mon 2 May when the price was around $1.71 so the 'smart' started to get out 7 weeks ago. This may have been due to 'inside' information or the fact that QF is going to spend most of the next 5 years making less money than it costs to fund the airline's operations.

Should the World economy 'fall over' in the next 2-3 years anything could happen with QF.

[hotnhigh]

Destination unknown for Alan Joyce | Angela Priestley | Commentary | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Alan-Joyce-Qantas-CEO-aviation-IR-BCA-pd20120621-VG65E?opendocument&src=rss)

Nice last sentence.

[Race Bannon]

The information in this piece is circumlocutory.Its all about letting everyone know that Joyce is on the outer and his departure is imminent.We live in hope

[ampclamp]

Readers of Paul Barry's Power Index The Power Index (http://www.thepowerindex.com.au/) maybe interesed in this article featuring AJ. The final paragraphs follow...

"While Joyce is hardly shy of talking up these challenges -- and particularly complaining about the competitor -- he's made attempts to meet them with an approach that long-time aviation journalist Ben Sandilands likens to a kid with an attention deficit disorder.
But Joyce is finally running out of energy. Some watchers believe that Joyce's departure is imminent, and could occur within a matter of weeks.
The man's final surprise could be that he pulls a rabbit out the hat with his strategy to split the airline into both domestic and international divisions puts the group in a more profitable position.
But we reckon he may finally be out of party tricks."

[The The]

Try an analogy with the Costa Concordia.

Reckless abandon to duty with a history of cockiness and not listening; results in the grounding of a perfectly good ship on the rocks.

Inability to lead, indecision and unable consign effective order results in mayhem onboard.

Jumps in the liferaft to save own skin then blames everybody else.

Is the Costa Qantasa salvageable? Or will it be cut up and sold for scrap?

[IsDon]

Perfect analogy TT. :cool:

[Wally Mk2]

..........ditto on TT's analogy:ok: Although the Costa floundered in shallow water,perhaps QF will be more like the Titanic & go straight to the bottom never to be resurrected ! Either way it's sinking & the guy at the helm could very well be on his last voyage too!


Wmk2

[Sarcs]

Alan's alter ego perhaps??:E

[YOUTUBE]Oh Alan - YouTube

...after all leprechauns supposedly have green thumbs!:ok:

Or maybe Ben is onto the Irish logic of it all....

Ryanair's new Aer Lingus bid begs Jetstar/ Qantas questions | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/06/21/ryanair-renews-cash-bid-for-aer-lingus-could-jetstar-ever-buy-qantas/)

[outside limits]

Talk is AJ is planning something. Is it near the end for mainline International ?

[SOPS]

I think something has to be coming. Sudden profit talkdowns, strange rumblings about an Etihad/VB tie up sending QF broke.....somethings in the wind.

[outside limits]

If QF intl can lose $450 million bucks in a year , it can be shut down july 1st and save Qantas group over 1 million per day. Finally scrap the long haul agreement and fly domestic only. Its in the pipeline one would imagine. In 12 months everyone will look back & see how obvious it looked.

[SOPS]

Thats an interesting thought. If International is shut down, who will prop up JQ? Answer=Domestic. Then we will have "Domestic is not profitable" story, and it will be shut down and bingo all that is left is JQ. Rebrand it QF, and we have a new "QF light". Or am I thinking too hard?

[Race Bannon]

No matter which way you look at it,take QF international out of the equation and the Qantas Group is toast.The whole business is centred around international feeding into and out of Australia.The Group would need an international feeder airline immediately if longhaul mainline were to cease operation.

[outside limits]

Maybe not race bannon. Qf is only bringing in, what %13 total traffic in & out of Aus. Maybe better to accept fact & stick to Dom ops whilst the rest of,the worlds airlines bring in the pax. Would of thought a massive majority of QF dom pax are simply that. Aust dom pax. Not Intl tourists.

[dr dre]

Interesting article here, with the LNP likely in power this time next year is this the real lobbying QF have been doing? And note which coalition pollie was the one to make the comment

Hockey suggests lifting Qantas restrictions (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/hockey-suggests-lifting-qantas-restrictions-20120622-20tkl.html)

THE shadow treasurer, Joe Hockey, has suggested a Coalition government would consider lifting foreign-investment and business restrictions placed on Qantas to enable it to compete with its rivals on a more level playing field.
After the Herald revealed yesterday that Qantas had warned its profitable domestic business will be imperilled should the state-owned foreign carrier Etihad secure enough of a slice of Virgin Australia, Mr Hockey said it was time to look at the arrangements governing Qantas.
''We have to make a decision about whether Qantas does become a major international airline with a majority ownership overseas, or whether we want to retain it and pay a price for retaining it as an Australian icon,'' he said.

[Arnold E]

Look, I might be just a dumb LAME, but why did international lose $450 million.:confused:

It seems to me, as dumb as I am, that the answer is, that the costs were more than the profit. Now as I said, I am only a dumb LAME, but wouldn't it make sense to increase the cost of flying to compensate???

Now I hear you cry, but nobody will fly with us, but at the same time, we will not be loosing 450M dollars.

By the way, I dont believe that nobody would fly QANTAS, maybe a few less.

Who is responsible for losing 450M? the pilots, engineers, ground staff, and if fact all who make QANTAS what it is? or those people who make the losses??

AJ and Co, it would seem to me, dont make QANTAS what it is/was.

Perhaps AJ would like to comment.

By the way, I dont work for QANTAS, never have and never will, but most Australians have an interest in what happens to Q, AJ will never be Australian.(not interested in what anyone else thinks about that)

[TheWholeEnchilada]

THE shadow treasurer, Joe Hockey, has suggested a Coalition government would consider lifting foreign-investment and business restrictions placed on Qantas to enable it to compete with its rivals on a more level playing field.
After the Herald revealed yesterday that Qantas had warned its profitable domestic business will be imperilled should the state-owned foreign carrier Etihad secure enough of a slice of Virgin Australia, Mr Hockey said it was time to look at the arrangements governing Qantas.
''We have to make a decision about whether Qantas does become a major international airline with a majority ownership overseas, or whether we want to retain it and pay a price for retaining it as an Australian icon,'' he said.


...

Wirth has worked in a number of communications roles before joining the Flying Kangaroo. Early jobs included the Australian Tourism Commission, which she parlayed into a role as a media adviser to Joe Hockey, then Minister for Small Business and Tourism. Wirth had a stint as executive of lobby group Transport and Tourism Forum before joining Qantas in 2009.
Wirth flies with the punches (http://afr.com/p/business/companies/wirth_flies_with_the_punches_payuwhDuNqj78HciUvQ4kK)

[TallestPoppy]

Arnold E. "but wouldn't it make sense to increase the cost of flying to compensate???".........um, only 13% of people arriving or leaving Australia use QF. Surely charging higher fares would only force those 13% o to another carrier?

"most Australians have an interest in what happens to QF"........um, they don't! The people who read this thread do. The 87% who fly on other carriers shows the level of interest. Zip, nada, nil.

[Turkeyslapper]

Charge more money? I am only slf....You pay premium prices and you expect a premium product, sadly qantas just doesn't cut the mustard these days IMHO for the prices being charged.

I would love to see qf prosper however, there are too many better value for money options out there.

Best of luck to all of you qf folk out there.

[600ft-lb]

Charge more money? I am only slf....You pay premium prices and you expect a premium product, sadly qantas just doesn't cut the mustard these days IMHO for the prices being charged.

I would love to see qf prosper however, there are too many better value for money options out there.

Best of luck to all of you qf folk out there. Best of luck ? You're an idiot. I'm sorry but it's the truth.

Stupid statements like there are too many better value for money options out there. and You pay premium prices and you expect a premium product, prove without a doubt, you are a sheep who believes in perception rather then the truth.

The perception that Qantas charges much more then anyone and is just **** all round.

If Qantas is so ****, why are their price points basically exactly on par with Virgin if not cheaper in many instances ? Don't believe me ? Goto webjet.com.au the easiest price aggregator in Australia. Prove me wrong. Not that I care, I check facts before I form opinions, something obviously foreign to you.

Qantas does compete on price, Qantas has MORE frequency, Qantas has the BEST on time performance. Simple facts.

But don't let your perception get in the way of the truth. And don't fill up this board with mindless **** statements with no proof and statements akin to 'yeah qantas is **** because its oh so expensive and you'll all be out of a job soon but good luck to all.'

Have you even flown Qantas lately to label them in such an idiotic way ?

[Turkeyslapper]

Ahhhh, yes I have, and I stand by my comments based on my personal experiences. Thanks for your constructive reply though.

Yes international, and it's not a matter of just saying qantas is Shiite...I don't believe that, however I just believe there are more competitive products out there.

[unseen]

Maybe he is talking about international flights???

[Romulus]

Stupid statements like there are too many better value for money options out there. and You pay premium prices and you expect a premium product, prove without a doubt, you are a sheep who believes in perception rather then the truth.

The perception that Qantas charges much more then anyone and is just **** all round.

If Qantas is so ****, why are their price points basically exactly on par with Virgin if not cheaper in many instances ? Don't believe me ? Goto webjet.com.au the easiest price aggregator in Australia. Prove me wrong. Not that I care, I check facts before I form opinions, something obviously foreign to you.

Qantas charge those rates where Virgin compete because Virgin are there. More importantly look at QF pricing where Virgin aren't and see what effect a new entrant has on their price.

Not surprisingly Qantas charge a premium where there is no competition. Such is the way of business.

One of the key issues for Qantas is the impact of international partners with Virgin. There is now a choice of Singapore in combination with an Australian domestic carrier. And yes, Singapore currently flog you guys for quality of product, service and flexibility for travel.

So well that 2 companies I have recently undertaken work for have moved from an all Qantas travel policy to an individual choice policy (with specific price requirements included) and people are voting with their feet.

Qantas needs to lift their game, from pricing, to destination options, to counter and cabin crew. Many probably won't like that last bit, but the simple fact is that too many QF staff come across as grumpy and miserable. You can blame Joyce and Co all you like but as a customer where do you like to shop - the "happy, friendly" place or the "sit down shut up and you'll get what you're given" place? Again, where genuine choice exists people are voting with their dollars.

That's not to say Qantas is ****, because they certainly aren't. But a major lift in their game is needed to match the currently far superior offerings of your competitors.


Qantas does compete on price, Qantas has MORE frequency, Qantas has the BEST on time performance. Simple facts.


Yet every time I want to change my ticket, and I admit if happens a lot due to changing meetings and the like, Qantas do everything they can to make those cheaper tickets less attractive in terms and conditions. Again, that's their choice, but when I do manage to get away early from a meeting in Canberra (as a recent example) not moving me forward from a peak hour flight to a 2pm flight that is half full using the reason that my ticket class doesn't allow such changes is a major difference to your competition who usually can't do enough to help me get away from the airport and back home as quickly as possible.

The price isn't everything, as Qantas keep trying to point out, and as you do yourself with commentary on frequency and on time performance, other factors are there. Making life that little bit harder or less flexible for people who work for one of your top 10 customers is not a great idea. That goes beyond your webjet question, it goes to the core ethos of your company. Domestically I fly roughly 2/3 Qantas, 1/3 Virgin. Yet Virgin are the ones currently making my life easier as opposed to Qantas' view that sitting in their lounge for 3 hours if perfectly fine.

Sure, that's a first world problem, it certainly isn't the end of the world. But when I have a choice who do you think I will choose - the airline that gives me a nice lounge for 3 hours or the airline that gets me to my personal lounge 3 hours earlier?




But don't let your perception get in the way of the truth. And don't fill up this board with mindless **** statements with no proof and statements akin to 'yeah qantas is **** because its oh so expensive and you'll all be out of a job soon but good luck to all.'

Have you even flown Qantas lately to label them in such an idiotic way ?

Reasonably regularly. I wouldn't be in your Top 100 or anything but I'm certainly in your top tier. Your marketing people keep telling me how valuable I am to you, I keep getting all sorts of wonderful offers for all sorts of stuff, clearly your people are mining their databases to get a larger "share of wallet" from me yet somehow your opposition manages to lure me away by backing up their hipster image with the view "hey, we're an airline, let us get you where you want to go as effectively and efficiently as we can" rather than making me hang around airport terminals.

Qantas are in a similar position to BMW. They are a premium brand, they are premium priced, but they have the equivalent of Lexus nipping at their heels. Your competitors have an aggressive attitude toward growth, they do everything you do and more and they are taking your market. Just as BMW is no longer superior to Toyota (in the form of Lexus), Qantas is no longer superior to Virgin or Singapore or Emirates or anyone other than the genuine LCC's like Tiger.

[S70IP]

Qantas has the BEST on time performance. Simple facts.

Yes that's true, (if you ignore Tiger Airways for the last 5 months). A few coments though:

1. OTP is a self assessed industry benchmark. Watch Virgins OTP sky rocket when it get ACARS and click off the park brake with one minute to go to pushback within 15 mins like Qantas often do.
2. Virgin flys to more destinations than Qantas. If Qantas flew to more destinations, that Jetstar fly and Qantaslink fly to, I think it would be interesting to see Qantas OTP then. For example May 2012, Jetstar and Qantaslink were 79.4% and 75.8% respectively.
3. As far as the routes that both Qantas and Virgin fly on Qantas are ahead 34 to 22. Watch that number come a lot closer when Virgin get more gate room in Sydney and Perth.

[Keg]

Just a few quick points of clarification.

Watch Virgins OTP sky rocket when it get ACARS and click off the park brake with one minute to go to pushback within 15 mins like Qantas often do.

In order for us to release the park brake, we need to be locked up, ready to push and essentially be waiting for an ATC clearance to push back. As a rule, QF pilots don't arbitrarily release the park brake to tick the box. Quite the opposite in fact, releasing the brake early covers for other areas who may have stuffed something up. If we release the park brake early those issues are never fixed.

I'd be stunned if DJ didn't work the system the same way when they get ACARS. It'll need something other than what you suggest for the OTP figures to change.

Watch that number come a lot closer when Virgin get more gate room in Sydney and Perth.

Yes, more gate space would be a great thing and not just for DJ. Certainly there are times these days when gate space for QF services is an issue- particularly in MEL, SYD and PER. Of course, the Sydney movement cap occasionally doesn't help (all carriers) with the apron congestion it causes.

[Captain Gidday]

Watch Virgins OTP sky rocket when it get ACARS and click off the park brake with one minute to go to pushback within 15 mins like Qantas often do.
You can click off the park brake all you like, but if a door is still open, nothing will register on the ACARS. Logic for recording Off Blocks is "Doors Closed + Park Brake Released".
It's in fact far easier to Bend It Like Beckham without ACARS. How many Virgin flights actually push at :20 but call it :15. Dozens? Hundreds?

[travelator]

1. OTP is a self assessed industry benchmark. Watch Virgins OTP sky rocket when it get ACARS and click off the park brake with one minute to go to pushback within 15 mins like Qantas often do.

Can't comment on other machines but the ACARS in mine requires all doors to be closed and park brake released before it will register off blocks. Don't know how you can fudge that (as is being suggested) without actually being off blocks:rolleyes:. What do other operators use? The honor system?

Wow, gotta be quick 'round here! Two posts in while writing mine. Beat me to it Keg and Gidday

[S70IP]

Ok thanks for the info.
Virgin OTP recorded by the gate staff radioing back to AMCO as the aircraft pushes back. What goes in the flight log or radioed in airborne by the pilots doesn't really count except for arrival est.

[Arnold E]

Surely charging higher fares would only force those 13% o to another carrier?

So its better to lose $450M then... pure genius, no wonder your the big cheese and I'm only a LAME:)

[Mstr Caution]

Certainly there are times these days when gate space for QF services is an issue- particularly in MEL, SYD and PER.

Regarding Perth, any truth to the rumour that QF lease the terminal & gates to Virgin in Perth.

The lease ending next year.

[Fliegenmong]

SOPS -

"Rebrand it QF, and we have a new "QF light". Or am I thinking too hard?"

Nup, not thinking too hard at all, just thinking like many of us were years ago when jokestar started......the smoke and mirrors of it all will be relying on the populace thinking it is still QF, when it clearly will not be. Jitconnect and all that....

Then again, thinking of it another way, they've (clifford dixon joyce) royally screwed the brand over already...

[Keg]

Regarding Perth, any truth to the rumour that QF lease the terminal & gates to Virgin in Perth.


Not that I've ever heard of. I have heard the rumour that once the other terminal is up and going that we'll be moving to a system similar to what is proposed for Sydney. That is, we'll have all QF movements at the current terminal (including international) whilst DJ will move across the road to the new terminal and the international terminal.

Not sure how true it is, just what I keep hearing.

[Romulus]

So its better to lose $450M then... pure genius, no wonder your the big cheese and I'm only a LAME

Question comes down to fixed costs per passenger vs variable costs.

If, by charging higher fares, you lose some passengers but keep enough so that the fare increase offsets the loss then you're obviously ahead.

Equally if you lose an additional 1% of your total customers (i.e. 12% of market) then you need to be very careful that the lost revenue is offset by the extra income. Which costs are truly variable (i.e. 1 less passenger means 1 less passenger's worth of cost), which are semi variable (i.e. 1 less passenger equates to a cost saving of a partial share of 1 passenger, I believe fuel would fall into this category for instance) and which are fixed (eg airport handling fees, cost of you MCC, training school etc).

The problem would seem to be that increasing fares will decrease passenger numbers which will mean the semi variable and fixed costs have to be spread across fewer tickets which will then mean you need to increase fares to cover that additional cost per ticket or you make a further loss.

I've had 2 major arguments when consulting to companies who want to kill off what they believe to be non profitable products becasue they have never understood that less products means that the fixed costs allocated to the deleted product(s) must then be spread across the remaining products.

That isn't to say that products should never be deleted, just that all the ramifications need to be explored. As QF have shorn themselves down to 8 international routes that means the entire fixed cost structure burden must be paid for across those 8 routes. No idea how that calculation was undertaken before the routes were deleted but I'd assume a professional organisation like QF would have done so.

Equally if they didn't they wouldn't be the first.

[TheWholeEnchilada]

...As QF have shorn themselves down to 8 international routes that means the entire fixed cost structure burden must be paid for across those 8 routes. No idea how that calculation was undertaken before the routes were deleted but I'd assume a professional organisation like QF would have done so.

Not only that, management have increased the administrative cost base by duplicating the mainline structures with the split of international & domestic! I suspect that if you can work it out, so can they and it's not by accident. What could possibly be the motive...

[Capt_SNAFU]

8 routes? I think it is a few more. Not many. Do you know something we don't?

[Arnold E]

Question comes down to fixed costs per passenger vs variable costs.NO genius, the question comes down to...... do you want to lose money or make money,,, chee

[tgbgtgb]

Thought he may have meant destinations but I count at least 13. But thats just picking on details. If he was to go back and edit that to a more correct number it would still be an interesting point.

[extralite]

Good posts Romulus. Thanks for taking the time. Economies of scale acting against qantas int now too. It's a messy end, planned or incompetence is the only unknown.

[standard unit]

It's a messy end, planned or incompetence is the only unknown.

I had a conversation with a top Sydney medical specialist about 3 months ago who quite obviously knew people close to the action.

He told me that things were going to get very bad for Qantas.

Planned I'd say..........

[600ft-lb]

Looking at the big Qantas related rumor going around at the moment, regarding Emirates.

Joining the dot with Alan Joyce actively lobbying in parliament this week to remove the Qantas Sale Act foreign ownership restrictions.

Putting the 2 together, I wouldn't be suprised if a deal were done, contingent on the law being changed. Potentially, the windfall for the UAE as a country, is massive. Both major airlines in Australia feeding passengers into their country and onwards to Europe/UK.

[600ft-lb]

Also, the $450million loss international supposedly will post.
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20120605/pdf/426np2dqlc6z3k.pdf

'Transformation costs' - $370-380million FY 11/12
'Industrial Action' - $100million

$480million in self inflicted costs. What geniuses they will be after a profit is posted.

Hopefully the Asian strategy will pay off to pay back the $450million bond due in 2013...
Bond | QANTAS AIRWAYS 03/13 REGS | USQ77974AW52 | 881627 (http://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/en/bonds/qantas+airways+03+13+regs+USQ77974AW52)

[Keg]

I think those transformation and IR costs are on top of the supposed $416 million dollar loss for international. Of course, who freaking knows with this mob.

[ejectx3]

A Shakespearean tragedy

[Oldmate]

Agree with 600- I think Alan is lobbying for a change to the act to facilitate an Emirates deal of some kind. Think it is a bit early for panic about Q closing up shop.

[S70IP]

Looking at the big Qantas related rumor going around at the moment, regarding Emirates.

Joining the dot with Alan Joyce actively lobbying in parliament this week to remove the Qantas Sale Act foreign ownership restrictions.

Putting the 2 together, I wouldn't be suprised if a deal were done, contingent on the law being changed.

I don't think it's going to make a difference as far as selling of a slice of Qantas.

Emirates president Tim Clark says that his carrier has reached out to Qantas and would like the two carriers to work together, but has denied that the Dubai based carrier is looking to take a stake in the Flying Kangaroo.

Speaking to journalists at the sidelines of the IATA AGM in Beijing, Mr Clark confirmed that Emirates had made an initial approach to Qantas seeking a codeshare arrangement to strengthen its network in the Oceania region, but he ruled out an equity alliance.

A code share yes.
Qantas is only about 34% foreign owned so if Emirates wanted to invest it could now without the laws changing. If it was a good price at a buck and loose change they would of already bought A chunk of it.

[TallestPoppy]

Do you really think if Emirates rides in with their chequebook that everything will carry on as is at QF?

The Brand might remain, or it might be rebranded as Emirates, but I am sure there would be changes felt at the top, and in your hip pockets.

[Romulus]

8 routes? I think it is a few more. Not many. Do you know something we don't?

The number doesn't really matter, be it 8 or 13 or 21, the point is that Qantas (not Jetstar or Qantaslink but Qantas International non codeshare flights) have cut back on routes significantly and that means that the overhead burden must be shared across fewer routes so unless their passengers are happy to go via London or Frankfurt when they really want to go to Zurich, Rome or Paris, then passengers will be lost to airlines who offer what the customer actually wants which in turn means that fewer customers must pay ticket prices that support the whole infrastructure and where the cost of that infrastructure doesn't come down on a per passenger basis then you're in a classic margin squeeze.

If you follow Arnold's advice and put prices up then people are even less likely to accept the roundabout route and will migrate to other, more direct, carriers which in turn will also mean less tickets to cover your overheads with which in turn will mean that where you thought adding $450M to the price of your tickets sold last year would get you to break even you find that you sell less tickets so you need to add $600M or somesuch and then you find even more people leave to the competition and so on. Sooner or later the point becomes really obvious that you can't keep putting up prices and hoping fewer customers will pay so much more that you make a profit. With businesses such as airlines that have quite massive fixed costs you must have economies of scale to spread those costs over or you will simply run out of cash.

Telco's are the same, if not worse. The cost of an individual phone call to a telco company is bugger all, the marginal cost of a new customer on an existing network is pretty close to zero. But the cost of the first customer is billions as you need the network to support them. Similarly for airlines right down to the individual flight level, the first passenger through the door costs a fortune, every passenger after that costs a few bucks extra in fuel and food. That's largely why the whole "just put prices up" theory doesn't wash - you lose too many customers to the competition to cover the increase in ticket prices.

[Romulus]

NO genius, the question comes down to...... do you want to lose money or make money,,, chee

Thanks for recognising my genius level of intelligence Arnie, it's so rare to get a compliment on an anonymous forum these days!

Anyhow, would you care to expand on how you intend to make money by putting prices up? Perhaps a return to old style pricing where it cost about a year's average wage to fly to London? That looks nice, but what do you think would happen?

[teresa green]

Fella's there is one problem. You still have to get all this past the govt. and the people. I know you think I rabbit on about the national carrier, but no govt. wants QF to basically cark it on their watch, and watch the people come out of their slumber if they think there is any change of QF going to or being part of the Arab world. They will not accept it, and Joyce knows that. So does the govt. This is incredibly sensitive, and they are more likely to combine QF and JQ leaving the Roo visible, which the public will accept, if done slowly and the Govt. decides to ignore it , as both airlines are Australian, and the public sees JQ as a offshoot of QF anyway. That was the plan from day one, and the Arab connection is fraught with difficulties, especially for the govt. of the day. Pressure will be put on Joyce by the govt. for a acceptable decision one way or another, as Australians expect their National Carrier to be visible and uniquely Australian, and will not accept anything else.

[waren9]

Joyce is busy positioning himself to hold the govt to ransom for a second time. His hand will be all the jobs in International and whatever emotional stock the politicians perceive the nation has in the notions of "national icon" and "national carrier" and public pride.

When and how are the only 2 variables.

Can the govt negotiate anything better than jobs elsewhere in the JQ franchise?

[The The]

A code share yes.
Qantas is only about 34% foreign owned so if Emirates wanted to invest it could now without the laws changing. If it was a good price at a buck and loose change they would of already bought A chunk of it.

I don't think EK are interested in QF International nor Jetstar. They are only interested in QF domestic to feed EK. They don't want to buy into the current whole group.

However, I believe the QF Int/Dom split has a way to go with the goal being to have QF Dom listed as a separate entity on the stock exchange that can then be 100% foreign owned. This is why they are lobbying Canberra, to enable a structure like Virgin. They will then do like Virgin and encourage foreign investment into the domestic business with no cap.

The other place to watch is China. There are rumours about China Eastern being in the mix. Strong business (mining) ties already between Australia and China with Chinese tourism being forecast to be the next boom. A Chinese carrier could be interested in both QF Domestic and also Jetstar with its Asian presence. This could mean a separate listing with QF Dom and Jetstar being spun off together under a new entity.

The only reason the current management are keeping their jobs is surely because of something big in the very near future. I believe it must be something to do with an equity tie up with EK or MU. Shareholders would not be putting up with the current management based on performance unless they are in for something soon, and that must be equity.

Either way, QF Int will likely disappear or become a small niche operation flying only Aus to US.

That's my theory.

[moa999]

At least one Aussie company is making Qantas look good.
Billabong (BBG) from $17 to under $1 today.

[ohallen]

Well if the plan is to hold the government to ransom again, then this could get interesting because there are many who did not like it the first time and who have long memories.Surely not even AJ is that stupid, but given what has happened to date who knows, because the only certainty is Exec bonuses.

Bring it on, because we are a bit light on entertainment at the moment.

[ampclamp]

Perpetual slashes executive pay - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-25/perpetual-slashes-executive-pay/4090700)

Perpetual will slash executive pay after profit slump. Someone setting a good example. From the ABC

Perpetual slashes executive pay

Fund manager Perpetual has slashed its executives' pay as it prepares shareholders for a slump in profits.
From July this year, the almost $500,000 pay cheque for Perpetual's chairman will be cut by 42 per cent, while the average pay for non-executive directors will be cut by 25 per cent.
Vas Kolesnikoff from the Shareholders' Association says it is an unprecedented move, made under pressure from disgruntled investors.
"Perpetual has been shrinking, Perpetual's stock price was $83. It's now in the low twenties. Its earnings have gone from the hundreds of millions down to $20 million," he said.
The pay cuts are part of the company's restructure, which also involves cutting about 300 jobs.
The fund manager has warned shareholders its full-year net profit will slump to as low as $22 million, which is less than a third of last year's $62 million profit.
The Shareholders' Association hopes more companies will follow the example set by Perpetual and slash the pay of its executives.
Mr Kolesnikoff says there are many more companies that need to slash executive pay.
"Companies such as Fairfax, where shareholder wealth has fallen by 90 per cent and executive and board remuneration has increased, need to be looking at themselves," he said.
"And other companies, including Qantas, etcetera - where the directors and the executives are firing employees but somehow they seem to be unaccountable and they seem to be untouched."

[vitamin B]

Has anyone heard rumours of QF seeking bids from a number of large (repeat LARGE) construction firms for price submissions on the construction ot a LARGE maintenance hanger at SYD which will be required to accommodate/service four (4) A380 type A/C???

Who has the cheque book?

VB

[600ft-lb]

Probably something to do with this

http://www.sydneyairport.com.au/~/media/Files/Corporate/Media%20Centre/Media%20Releases/2011/NEW_VISION_FOR_SYDNEY_AIRPORT_FACT_SHEET.pdf

The hangars are getting moved down the road per that plan..

[woollcott]

In the mean time, while the share price plummets and cost cutting is meant to be happening, some one in their infinite wisdom has decided to create 3 of these jobs for MEL, SYD and BNE plus 3 advisors for same:

From the QF intranet:

Performance Support Manager

Description


Executive Job Grade Level 5L
Newly created role; lead from the front!
This is a rare opportunity to join our newly created team that will help drive us towards our 2020 vision and operating model.

Your new role as Manager Performance Support will see you deliver high level efficient and consistent case management advice and support to line managers in the areas of formal investigations, performance management, grievance handling and the management of long term ill and Injured Workers.

Working closely with line managers, the performance support team and the IR/EEO team you will to ensure an integrated, collaborative approach to case management and inform appropriate business partners of reports or investigations which may constitute a potential risk to the business (i.e. media exposure, brand damage or claims against the company). You may also be responsible for managing a team of Advisers Performance Support.

Comprehensive training will be provided to support the newly formed team.

Your core duties will include:
Delivery high quality advice, coaching and support to line managers in the areas of formal investigations, performance management, grievance handling and the management of ill and Injured workers which ensures procedural fairness, meets legislative compliance and minimises business risks
Actively facilitating the repositioning of performance support within the People Services environment through continuously expanding business specific knowledge and engaging with line managers to understand their needs
Review existing business practices to align processes and outcomes and drive consistency
Engage specialist/providers as required in consultation with the Manager People Performance
Maintain oversight of quality of service provided by external providers
Managing complaints, investigations and outcomes consistent with Qantas policy, legislative obligations and business objectives. Inform appropriate SME's, business leaders and line HR of reports or investigation which may constitute a potential risk to the business, i.e. media exposure or brand damage
Coaching and mentoring of the Advisers Performance Support and Tier II People Connect team to build knowledge and capability in managing people issues
Minimising financial exposure by providing expert advice to line managers on case management and resolution
Maintaining industry knowledge through peer visits, participation in conferences etc, in order to strengthen technical EEO and IR knowledge
To be successful in this role you will possess:
Tertiary qualifications in Human Resources or equivalent field
Proven experience in managing grievances and workplace investigations cases across a diverse range of issues relating to issues with a track record of success
A strong work ethos with a practical mindset and pragmatic HR approach to drive solutions that will help support the Qantas Group
Excellent relationship management skills with the ability to influence stakeholders at all levels of the organisation as well as the ability to negotiate and coach
Sound written and verbal communication skills and the ability to maintain documented audit trails, advice and investigations as well as showing meticulous attention to detail
Strong analytical and problem solving skills with the ability to apply them in the management of disciplinary and grievance matters
Sound judgement and the ability to maintain appropriate confidentiality & discretion
Previous leadership and people management experience

An easy 2Mill+ on the bottom line.............

Now, can somebody tell me what the "2020 vision" is? (Or is it a really clever pun?) and what these people would actually be doing?

[Nassensteins Monster]

Flight of Qantas fancy: Crikey




Crikey (http://www.crikey.com.au/)
Despite his Irish heritage, Alan Joyce is the consummate Australian businessman. No one better personifies the current tendency of many of our most prominent to blame all their problems on others – their employees, the government, their customers, evil foreigners – and to demand that governments do something about it.
The latest lesson from the Alan Joyce school of managerial excellence emerges today with Fairfax reports about Qantas lobbying parliamentarians to block Etihad's investment in its rival Virgin, on the grounds that a cashed-up Virgin could, well... compete more effectively with Qantas.
According to the Fairfax report (http://www.theage.com.au/business/qantas-fears-over-etihad-push-20120621-20qvg.html), Qantas is warning it could be forced to shut down. Yes, shut down – Qantas expects to make $600 million from its domestic operations this year, up $50 million on the previous year. Virgin's entire half-year profit to December was $96 million.
At least the "shut down" threat is a variant on the traditional Qantas threat that if anyone was allowed to compete with it, it would be forced to close unprofitable regional routes, a claim that invariably alarmed rural and regional MPs and that underpinned years of aviation protectionism run by the federal Department of Transport, whose bureaucrats enjoyed multiple junkets a year (via the pointy end of the plane) to negotiate aviation rights that fiercely protected Australian consumers from the benefits of competition.
What's happened over time is that competition has – in the funny way it tends to – exposed Qantas' management, in the same way former monopolies invariably struggle to adjust to life after gouging. And, in particular, that of Alan Joyce. The Qantas share price now carries a substantial Joyce discount. This is the performance of Qantas shares since Joyce came on board (sorry) in November 2008, compared to the ASX 200, from the ASX site.
Under Joyce, Qantas began seriously underperforming in the market in late 2010 and the gap has only widened, albeit slowly, since then. Joyce's main reaction was to declare war on his workforce, blame the Fair Work Act and promise grand offshore ventures that came to nought. Now, it appears, he has fallen back on the Qantas tradition of demanding protection from competition, at the direct expense of Australian consumers.
It's the sign of a chief executive and management team apparently bereft of ideas about how to respond to competitors, some of whom, yes, are government subsidised, but others of whom, like Virgin, have simply exploited Qantas's own ineptitude.
This story first appeared on www.crikey.com.au (http://www.crikey.com.au/) on June 22. Republished with permission.

[norm123]

If you let a Leprachaun run an airline, don't be surprised if you get Leprosy....and things start falling off!!

[standard unit]

Shorthaul cabin crew on secondment to the A380 are rumoured to all be going back to domestic flying en masse and soon.

[gobbledock]

handling and the management of long term ill and Injured Workers.
Woolcott, I think this part of the PD is referring to the mental illness and brain injuries the most of the senior group are sufferring from and hence require assistance.

[1a sound asleep]

People on the net asking about Travel insurance to avoid Qantas Collapse. Just shows the AJ panic act is even seen by consumers as being real


http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1939667

[Romulus]

So NM, does that mean all the people blaming Joyce and Nassenstein for everything ailing QANTAS are guilty of the same thing?

;)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just wondering how much the share price would climb from $1.07 today if there was a major Board clean out? We may have to move back to the $2 thread.

[teresa green]

If only Fed, if only.:{

[LAME2]

Here's hoping. Cannot understand why CEO and other high level Managers don't fly their own airline but seem to prefer Singapore and lately, Virgin.

Just wondering how much the share price would climb from $1.07 today if there was a major Board clean out? We may have to move back to the $2 thread.

[B772]

With EK about to commence MEL-DXB nonstop with the A380 the QF position at MEL will be weakened further. Add the SQ press release yesterday they are planning to add a further 10 services per week to the Australian market before the end of the year and we start to see QF has no long term strategy.

BTW. I understand the recent initiative by QF to terminate BKK-LHR and HKG-LHR and use a BA connection has been a dismal failure for both carriers. The punters do not want a change of carrier and long connections in BKK and HKG.
I assume this is the reason for a further frequency by SQ between SIN-LHR from October and the planned increase in services SIN-Aust.

[Mstr Caution]

Regarding BKK-LHR & HKG-LHR.

I thought that QF & BA were in some type of joint services agreement between Australia & the UK. Effectively revenue sharing between services.

I would have thought replacing QF with BA between Asia & the UK would have increased the labour cost base?

If the justification for the switch was a more economical 777 as opposed to the 744. Assuming Australian labour is cheaper than that of the UK, wouldn't it have been more economical for BA to dry lease 777's to QF.

Net result. Reduced costs & an increase in the "joint revenue".

My opinion is Joyce went for the short term gain of leasing the landing spots in LHR for the financial gain.

[Mstr Caution]

If you haven't had the chance to read the transcripts from FWA.

Have a look at the Rob Gurney's transcripts, it's on par with Paul Daff's performance in the jet connect case.

For a guy who in charge of Qantas commercial. The lack of detail known about the business seemed deficient

MC

[B772]

Master Caution.

I remember reading Rob Gurney received his 'marching orders' in a QF press release about a month ago.

BTW. Why would BA dry lease B777's to QF. They do not have any spare B777's.
The B777 is the BA favourite aircraft. Been to LHR recently ?, they are everywhere.

Also, I think you will find that overall UK labour is cheaper than Australian labour.

[The Green Goblin]

Well I've been waiting with anticipation for some sort of announcement to explain all of this craziness.

I've come to the conclusion there is none.

Any news is better than no news, and no news just doesn't make sense. However that basically sums up executive management, they don't make any sense. None at all.

The 777 is old technology hey? What about those 737s which keep appearing?

[B772]

For those interested EK are planning to operate an A380 to Gatwick on 6 July to celebrate 25 years of operation to Gatwick.

BTW. EK now operate 16 services per day between DXB and the 6 airports they serve in the UK. How can QF compete with just their 2 services per day to LHR.