Airspace Boundaries

[michael36]

Let's say you are flying through Avalon airspace at 2500ft. Those familiar with the aerodrome would know the AV CTR is class D from the surface to 2500ft. From 2500ft to 4500ft you are in Class E airspace. If you intend to fly at 2500 ft in the AV area as a VFR aircraft will you be in class D or E airspace.

[wishiwasupthere]

Check AIP ENR 1.4 Para 1.1.7. If cruising at the boundary of two vertically joining airspace areas, you must comply with the requirements of the less restrictive class of airspace (Class E is less restrictive than Class D). I can't remember the specifics though but the Class E around AV is a bit different than normal Class E in that you need to call the the tower even if you're transitting VFR. :ugh: Been bitten on the ass by that one before!

[MajorCorporalArse]

A025 is class D

[yarrayarra]

Just checked with my compadres and they confirm A025 is Class E

[BlatantLiar]

It's always the less restrictive of the airspaces. I thought this would have been pretty common taught knowledge.

edit : And no, you don't need to contact anyone, just monitor the frequency and squawk. They made it pretty clear when AV Approach came into place. Probably to not clog up the 135.7 controller with pretty ordinary transiting calls.

[VH-XXX]

Oh dear, the things you read on here.

2,500 to 4,500 ft is class E over Avalon.

You do not need to call the tower to transit class E over Avalon because it is not their airspace, however you must fly in accordance wih standard procedures for class E airspace, eg radio, transponder etc.

If you do call Avalon tower they will tell you to call someone else who cares.

[Scamp Damp]

If you have any concerns, why not fly at 2501' - the answer is very clear then.... if you are scared of E, fly at 2499' :ouch:

What is the tolerance applied to altimeters ... that may be your get out of jail card if you are 225'd

[VH-XXX]

The whole 2,501 ft thing is plain crap.

It's 2500 to 4500 ft Class E !

Class D below it, is surface to 2,500 ft.

Period.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

MajorCorporalArse

A025 is class D

And he wonders why people want check flights?

[kaz3g]

The Avalon procedures are listed here for both tower and non-tower times

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - OnTrack (http://services.casa.gov.au/ontrack/index.html)

kaz

[VH-XXX]

MajorCorporalArse

Quote:
A025 is class D

And he wonders why people want check flights?

To clarify, this is NOT correct!

[Awol57]

As a Class D ATC you would be surprised how often I get asked that question!

[Capn Bloggs]

The Avalon procedures are listed here for both tower and non-tower times

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - OnTrack

kaz
Nothing in Ontrack about Avalon that I can find...

[Checkboard]

It's under the Moorrabbin entry. :rolleyes:

[Capn Bloggs]

It's under the Moorrabbin entry. :rolleyes:
That's clever.

[Arnold E]

It's under the Moorrabbin entry. :rolleyes:

Ofcourse it is, when you want Melbourne you look up Sydney dont you??:E

[VH-XXX]

In their defence they are essentially right next to each other in terms of airspace.

[Capn Bloggs]

In their defence they are essentially right next to each other in terms of airspace.
What, another link and another two web pages? Is that too hard or made by a non-pilot? Flying's difficult enough as it is without this.

[Homesick-Angel]

025-045 is E, but it is a piece of airspace I always give an advisory on centre. It is a busier piece of airspace than you might think, and surely for the 5 seconds it takes to give the controller the heads up it can save you and them some stress...

[kaz3g]

Nothing in Ontrack about Avalon that I can find...

It's a nav test.

kaz

[BlatantLiar]

025-045 is E, but it is a piece of airspace I always give an advisory on centre. It is a busier piece of airspace than you might think, and surely for the 5 seconds it takes to give the controller the heads up it can save you and them some stress...

Disagree. If they really wanted you to notify the controller they wouldnt have wrote on all the leaflets/publications when Av Approach came into effect, that there is no need to notify of your transit. Just monitor the frequency and have your transponder on. Remember that when you talk to the Av Approach controller you are also talking to Melbourne Radar (centre) who is the same controller. I'm sure they have more important traffic to deal with than your bug smasher.

[VH-XXX]

MajorCorporalArse, you should be more careful when attempting to offer such definitive advice in an open forum that is incorrect.

As I understand it as of last month you were 115 hours into the 200 hour CPL syllabus and you completed one of your first solo nav's some 12 months ago.

Based on your post, I HIGHLY recommend you discuss airspace with your instructor at your earliest convenience.

This is BASIC Nav 101 and should not be misunderstood.

(Screen capture compliments of OZRunways on the iPhone)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/avalon.jpg

[le Pingouin]

That's just because that's the way this stupid piece of sh!t airspace model we've had foisted on us does it. Who in their right mind thinks it's sane for a low hour bug smasher to be mixing it unannounced with RPT jets?

Yes, they have more important things to do but instead have to watch multiple unknown VFRs doing god alone knows what flying right through airspace where jets are. It's not nice.

The controllers are actually very happy to know who you are. They certainly are when I tell them when I know who someone is as an arrivals controller and there's a jet about to get away.

[Homesick-Angel]

Remember that when you talk to the Av Approach controller you are also talking to Melbourne Radar (centre) who is the same controller. I'm sure they have more important traffic to deal with than your bug smasher.

I remember.

You obviously have never flown through this airspace, as it has to be the most ridiculous arrangement in aus that I know of.

There is a training area for RMIT flight training right up to the centre line from the east, down to the coast and somewhere up to the freeway..I have been through there and upon giving my call, have been advised there were no less than five AC in a piece of airspace small enough to have your eyes bugging out. There is fairly regular, but certainly not busy RPT, there are IFR training flights , there are sh1tloads of transiting flights to the east and the west from or to ymmb, YMEN and an aerobatics area just a tad further to the east. To top it off there is a few fairly unobtrusive chopper routes to and from the Geelong area.
All that is more than manageable, but if you transit 5 or so NM to the north at about A035, and are not listening while someone is trying to do an instrument approach into ymav, you can really stuff things up. I've heard it, and it wasn't fun for the controller.


Il keep giving a brief advisory call on centre until someone tells me otherwise as I see it as a SAFE thing to do in that particular space.. The amount of times they give me a code or squawk ident tells me they like it for separation, particularly when there is RPT ops or similar . The amount of times I've been given info on traffic in direct or near direct conflict with me tells me I like it.
As they are looking to open up the airport a bit more to GA, I'm sure that soon enough it will become similar to the VFR route advisory calls.

[Capn Bloggs]

You obviously have never flown through this airspace, as it has to be the most ridiculous arrangement in aus that I know of.
No it's not, it's world's best practice. Leadsled and Dick Smith say so. Think yourself damned lucky that you have to have your transponder on! In real E, no talk, no transponder, just look out the window. :ok: :ugh: :yuk:

[MajorCorporalArse]

To clarify, I did my PPL flight test over mav at a025 to avoid dealinig with avalon approach.. you figure the rest out.

[Jack Ranga]

Yep, let's start on Class E. A useless, costly waste of time and effort. Nobody IFR in E uses it for pick-up etc and I mean NOBODY. Nobody knows the base of real (C) CTR anymore. VFR are obvioulsy using their GPS to navigate along IFR routes and tell me that's safe?

Yep, I'm waiting to hear of the benefits of E?................Waiting?

[UnderneathTheRadar]

To clarify, I did my PPL flight test over mav at a025 to avoid dealinig with avalon approach.. you figure the rest out.

A025 is class D

Not sure that you're not digging yourself a bigger hole here.

Were you at A025 thinking you were in D - in which case you were REQUIRED to contact Avalon Approach (who would have told you that a clearance wasn't required)?

OR

Were you at A025 thinking you didn't need to talk to Avalon Approach (correct - unless you became aware you were in potential conflict - then you have to pipe up) - because you were in 'E'?

OR

Were you at A025 on a different frequency?


Strongly recommend you follow VH-XXXs advice and seek remedial training.

UTR

[Capn Bloggs]

Were you at A025 thinking you were in D - in which case you were REQUIRED to contact Avalon Approach (who would have told you that a clearance wasn't required)?
Clearance not required in Class D? Careful.

[VH-XXX]

Bloggsy, ambiguous wording there. He's not actually saying 2500 is D, it was about what the pilot was thinking, hence if he was at 2500 and he thought he was in D, he would have called the tower who would have replied that a clearance was not required. Therefore for his future trips, he'll bang along at 2500 ft thinking that he is in D but the controllers are always nice guys and don't need to give out clearances. Thus a precedent is set due to a misunderstanding so that next time at 2000 ft, all of a sudden all this extra radio work and read backs are strangely required!

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Thanks XXX.

Bloggs - based on the two previous posts from the Major - he believes:

a) that A025 is D; and
b) that he doesn't have to 'deal' with Av approach when at A025

It's a 'major' contradiction. If he THINKS he's in D then he needed a clearance (from Av APP who he was trying not to deal with?) so his first argument fails. IF his first post was wrong and he knows he was in E then I'm hoping he knows that he does need to deal with Av APP (be it only on a listening watch) - so his second argument fails.

What was his ATO doing during all of this?

UTR

[Capn Bloggs]

XXX and UTR, my only point is that a clearance into Class D is most definitely required; your posts indicate that that is not the case, potentially further confusing The Major.

[Jack Ranga]

Solution:

Class C over D, too easy, none of the confusion above.

E = useless garbage that cost money and will one day cause an accident/s due to someone confused as to what to do when?

[LeadSled]

No it's not, it's world's best practice. Leadsled and Dick Smith say so.

Bloggs,
You could be a little more balanced ---- add ICAO, US, CANDA, and a few European minos like France and Germany, (to name but a few) to Dick and I.

But, Hey!!!! What would we know?? what would they know??

Compared with the self confessed Australian airspace X-Sperts, most of whom base their assessments and conclusions on near as nil experience outside Australia, as makes no difference.

Never mind the facts, when your prejudices are already made up.

Tootle pip!!

PS: One small point about Avalon, and elsewhere ---- in the brave new world, pilots are expected to use their brains in communicating, and if you thing a call to Avalon tower is a good idea under the circumstances, and it isn't going to add to radio congestion --- go right ahead. Because it ain't "mandated" is not a reason not to use your brains.

[MajorCorporalArse]

Let me spell it out for you, i made a cheeky comment.

I flew at A025 in my test so i didn't have to communicate with Avalon Approach unless they requested otherwise in which case they would have requested a sqwk ident of xxxx and either informed me of a/c within vicinity or requested an altitude change or done absolutely nothing but said g'day like my last approach.

So yes i had to still set the freq into the comms and yes i had to maintain a listening watch but no i was not required to communicate with them.

I guess some just need clarification.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

For the last time - Major - read your own post number 3 on the first page:

A025 is class D

[BlatantLiar]

I think you're getting a bit over passionate UTR. I think the Major made a mistake in post #3 but he seems to make sense in his last post.

I have flown through the airspace many a time throughout my training and in my current job. You say I obviously never have based on what? Based on the fact that I don't talk to centre when it's not even mandatory? That's just ignorant and laughable. I'll stick to using my eyes, ears and a little bit of whats in between.

[Capt Fathom]

:confused:

ENR 1.1

3. AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCES AND INSTRUCTIONS

3.1 Except in an emergency, a clearance is required for all flights in Classes A, C, and D airspace.

You only require two way comms to enter class D airspace
It's a little more specific than that!

For entry into Class D airspace, establishment of 2-way communications between the aircraft and ATC constitutes a clearance to enter Class D airspace.

Whether you get that clearance is another thing!

[Jack Ranga]

pilots are expected to use their brains in communicating

Yep, that happens :ok:

Wrong big man.

ENR 1.1 12.3.1

You only require two way comms to enter class D airspace. Nowhere in the book does it state that you need a clearance prior to entering.

Go on 'big marn' go in there deliberately without a clearance, cause an accident:

o (your a-hole before you enter the big house)

O (your a-hole when you are parolled from the big house)

:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Intheweeds, I don't know whether you will access to AIP when in the slammer to further your study, but if you have access to the Internet, you may like to peruse Civil Aviation Safety Authority - OnTrack (http://services.casa.gov.au/ontrack/index.html) (same link as above), particularly regarding clearance requirements in Class D (page 2 on the Class D Information button). :ok: