Ryanair and Age (2012) [Archive]

Torque Tonight

6th Jun 2012, 13:56

I suspect I am the person to whom CY333 refers. He stated categorically that there was a cutoff age limit of 30 for Ryanair. As I joined the airline over the age of 30 I replied that I could say with certainty that he was incorrect. I also have many colleagues who joined at far greater ages and you will see several grey-haired FOs. CY333 refused to accept my statement of fact and reacted rather badly.

The remainder of his first paragraph above is figment of his own imagination, but we can draw our own conclusions as to why he might have been rejected when others of his age and older are accepted.

It is unfortunately true to say that your chances of first-time pilot employment decline with age due to a number of factors. To state that there are absolute limits in Ryanair is incorrect.

WallyWumpus

6th Jun 2012, 14:01

I joined at well over 30 at a time where supply far outstripped supply and RYR could take their pick. I have met many others who also fit this group.

There is no doubt in my mind that age is a factor that the airline takes into account in selection. As older pilots, especially as cadets, we are a higher training risk. That said, the fact the I, and others, exist in the organisation shows that you did not get passed over solely based on your years.

DILLIGAF.

6th Jun 2012, 14:08

there are plenty of over 30's who have joined Ryanair, myself included, likewise there are females and (shhhhh. don't tell anyone) even the Irish, these conspiracy theories are great! People wrongly assume that just because they have passed all their exams and skills tests that they are owed an interview with Ryanair, I assume you have applied to other airlines and have had no response? I can't imagine for a minute you will be accusing these airlines of age discrimination because they have been so rude as to not offer such an excellent example of perfection a job?

truckflyer

6th Jun 2012, 14:21

No there are no "official" limits with Ryanair. Having tested the system, and knowing many pilots working for Ryanair it is quite clear what is going on.

First "Torque Tonight", you don't state if those "older" are Cadets or experience FO's.

From what I have gathered, they are doing it in the way, that they every now and again take one guy "older" - a bit like the lottery, just to make sure their paperwork looks good, and that they are not discriminating.

I did the "test", sent in 2 applications with CAE with several months gap, on one I did a Typo, easy to do as it is a drop down box, instead of DOB 69, I put 79, within 5 days I had a reply from CAE to send my CV to them! Exactly the same as "ALL THE GUYS I KNEW" from my flight school got, they all got this response with 5 to 15 days from submitting their application. They ALL got called to interview.

(my first application made 3 - 4 months earlier NEVER got a response)

Now maybe my CV was bad? All first series passes, top ATPL scores, and loads of experience, I know some of the other guys, no offence, but they partial IR, low ATPL average scores, and even had some fails on their ATPL's, they all got interview, not all of them got offered a job, but most of them did!

The cut-off is not 30 officially, and it might be slightly higher, but there is a cut off where they prefer not to offer jobs, due to age.

Now the logic is twisted on this, because they way it is now, pilots will come and go fast with companies such as RYR, as they go to better jobs!

Haven given an older pilot a chance, options would have been less, and they could maybe had a more stabile pool of pilots, but than again, RYR also make money by training pilots, so money talks again

CY333

6th Jun 2012, 14:29

Most sensible answer I have seen up to now......and I agree with it 100%

FlyingSportsman

6th Jun 2012, 14:35

Perhaps i could offer an opinion-
As others have said alot of guys use FR as a step up to better jobs, and ryanair and the likes are more than aware of this, so naturally for the time they work for your company, you want to get your moneys worth.
Whilst not wanting to make a sweeping generalisation, older chaps are more likely to have wives/girlfriends maybe kids and a house with a mortgage. Where as the younguns straight out of flight school generally have no ties and FR can sling them around europe without too much trouble.
All the FR chaps I know have at some point in their career have been a long way from home- and stayed there for a significant amount of time, so perhaps this comes into consideration when Lo-Co's are hiring cadets.

corsair

6th Jun 2012, 14:35

I do know older guys who have got into Ryanair, a personal friend too. So yes they do take older pilots. Indeed I'm way over 37, a long way in fact. But I would fancy my chances of getting an interview. But that's because I'm relatively well connected. Sadly 20 years too late:{ (Incidently that doesn't mean I would be offered a job, just an interview)

But Ryanair has a decidedly opaque selection system at times. Two people can apply, one will get an interview and the other ignored. Truckflyer's test may be age related or maybe it's was a coincidence. Difficult to tell.

DILLIGAF.

6th Jun 2012, 14:38

[QUOTEinstead of DOB 69, I put 79,[/QUOTE]
with those dob's, 79 still puts you at 30plus, 69 at 40plus, whats your point? Training risk is a lot higher at 40plus than 30, I don't think there will be that many companies looking to employ cadets within that age range, sad as it may seem, all airlines are in a position where they can pick and choose who they want, that's just life i'm afraid

truckflyer

6th Jun 2012, 15:22

Well during the time I tried, ALL, and I mean ALL, that I knew who applied with Ryanair got an interview, let me add they were all younger guys, came from same flight school.

Me and few others from the same flight school, above 35 did not get a sniff at an interview as far as I can recall.

What are the chances that happen?

Personally I did feel upset when it happen, and BALPA was red hot on the case, but the irony was, that because I was not an employed pilot they could not look into unless I paid for the whole process myself.
However in hindsight, and also something I thought of that time, no use to make a fuss, it will not help me, and I did not want be perceived as a trouble maker. Thinking that somewhere down line, who knows what paths might cross, I would not want to have burnt my bridges just because of this.

It is quite clear, still it is also quite foggy!
It is one of the obstacles that me and others have to take into consideration, when we start to late.

The thing that you get flogged around europe, should NOT be a real issue for anybody starting this, you should not expect that you have would be stationed in the UK anyhow for the first X number of years.

However the way I saw it, having been able to wait 2 - 3 years to get a UK base, would not have been an issue, it was something I would have expected anyway.

MCDU2

6th Jun 2012, 15:36

I would take it as a lucky escape and move on. There are many FR pilots that have an ATPL plus thousands of hours and can't get out of the place. There are only so many jobs to go around in aviation for experienced pilots which give you a base close to home. No HR department in their right mind will employ solely from one outfit so you could well have become a statistic. Using FR as a stepping stone isn't a wise move in my opinion. It used to be when they were a lot smaller but not anymore.

shaun ryder

6th Jun 2012, 15:52

That said, the fact the I, and others, exist in the organisation shows that you did not get passed over solely based on your years.

On your ability to pay you do though.

Who is the I?

pudoc

6th Jun 2012, 16:13

First time passes in EVERYTHING from PPL to IR, 92% ATPLs etc. All done in UK modular.

My friend in his 20s has the exact same credentials as you, got a job straight away with them. It's either your CV, qualifications or age. I'm going with the later.

wangus

6th Jun 2012, 16:49

DILLIGAF,
Very fair and sensible question. I am not accusing other airlines of discrimination, no. I have contacts at numerous airlines due to my OPS / Dispatch background, and other airlines seem to be issuing redundancy warnings and profit warnings. BA FPP is not for me so they are welcome to ab-initio rich kids with 100K to self-fund. Other carriers want type rating and time. Subject to that, Moses would be welcome. 55 year old friend just straight into LHS at Norwegian. Ryanair is only airline which appears to be taking low hour people. That is why I am referring to THEM specifically.

truckflyer

6th Jun 2012, 16:52

It's funny, that every time this topic comes up, you have some that are defending Ryanair like it is their own granny!!!

With quite strong words such, "who do you think you are, that have a god given right to get an interview with Ryanair!"

This happens every time and makes me laugh!

There are currently loads of "over-qualified instructors", with great experience between 30 - 45, some of these with several thousand hours on SEP, and probably few hundred hours or more on MEP.
These do NOT get a chance with the Ryanair, why?
These are not even novice cadets, with regards to their experience level!

I am pretty sure, it does not suit the Ryanair business model to have "older pilots", because they have their own "budget" of income trough the training program!

If MOL saves on giving pilots a bottle of water, which probably would have cost him 10p, imagine the "savings"/ "income" of training new pilots. It does suit RYR that pilots come and go, and don't stay to long, to make sure their training department is profitable!

I am sure there are stats around about the average time of staying with the company, I would guess probably around 2 - 4 / 5 years maximum.
Ryanair this way got a cheap pilot for this period, and are ready to wait for the next one to pay their dues in the next round.

33.300 Euros total package for TR - that's £27000 for a TR that if you would go and purchase this on the "free market" would cost you around £20.000 incl. base training.
Add to the fact, that companies like Boeing, normally with EVERY AIRCRAFT SOLD, include a package deal of paid TR, not sure for Boeing, but heard with Airbus, they normally give you 4 TR as a part of the package!

Who knows what deal Ryanair has, but I am pretty sure there is a golden hand-shake there somewhere between RYR and CAE!

truckflyer

6th Jun 2012, 16:55

DILLIGAF -

What is the training risk RYR is taking for somebody over 40?

Does RYR pay for the TR?
The money paid, covers ALL training that the cadet will be required to do!

I would have understood if RYR paid your TR, but they don't pay you anything, nada! You pay, and than you pray!

VJW

6th Jun 2012, 19:49

truck flyer- you are correct there, but you miss one obvious point, and I'm probably biased, but have you considered that RYR actually want you to pass their type rating course, as they need people on the line? If they were in the business of purely selling type ratings I could understand, but losing 10% of the their pilot workforce this year alone, is a good enough reason for me to understand why they want to get people online. With the amount of demand for Captains both from DEC and upgrades, they don't have the sim time or manpower to waste on giving a type rating course to someone they feel may not pass.

That said, I don't agree that an older chap is necessarily more of a risk then a younger chap, but I don't do the recruiting. If they see age as a training risk it's their prerogative, they can hide this fact pretty easy as has already been mentioned above, by hiring the odd person over their normal limit. However, I also don't agree that there is such thing as an 'over qualified' instructor. I'm sure that if you put a 200 hr fresh cadet in a sim assessment with an FI of 2000 hours, the FI 'should' be better, but in all honesty I'm sure this isn't as accurate as you might think. FI probably doesn't do a lot of IR flying (and if they do its the student doing it under the 'hood'), hasn't maybe done their MCC in a few years, where as the cadet is straight out of the training. Doesn't change the fact that they should be given the same chance at least.

You don't appear to fall into this bracket, but there are plenty of 200 hr guys that see RYR as a Plan b, c or even d when they finish training. Once they started leaning towards plan d, they are immediately pi$$ed off when RYR don't start begging them for an interview. When you refer to guys sticking up for RYR like it's their own granny, its only due to guys I just described trying to undermine the job those of us already in RYR feel we earned.

Best of luck though.

DILLIGAF.

6th Jun 2012, 20:58

wangus - fair points, unfortunately RYR and Easy are the only two now recruiting low hrs guys and gals, almost identical contracts! sadly its their game and so their rules, and to be as successful as they are they have got to be savvy at this HR and discrimination thing, it can't go on forever though, i'm sure the wheel will come off one day, and is some style!

Truckflyer - I am just playing devils advocate, there is a training risk involved with someone who is more mature, this is not my opinion, but a scientifically studied fact. However I am of the opinion that each person should be viewed as an individual and treated fairly. There are a lot of cocky little s**** in RYR who are arrogant and believe themselves to be the next best thing in aviation, in contrast there are a lot of very mature younger guys. I am sure the same thing is evident in those of more mature years. Its not all about flying either, you've also got to include CRM and basic social skills, it has been said to me on more than one occasion how nice it is to fly with an "older" FO as we tend to have more to talk about than the younger aerosexuals!

as always, best of luck to all who apply, whichever airline it may be, its all the same job at the end of the day!

truckflyer

7th Jun 2012, 10:08

Valid points I agree!

Only thing that we know, unfortunately - the "older" ones that have been dumb enough to embark on this journey, would probably not a have a problem to accept RYR conditions either, only difference might be that they would most likely be in a stronger financial position to work out when they had to muich!

If 8000 people applied for the job, it would depend if recruitment was part of the business model or if it was just to employ people working for my company.

The difference would be that if I wanted good workers, and and not making money on recruitment, I would want long term people, however it seems clearly that for example with RYR their business model is based on on come and go, as you do reach command early with these LCC companies, so it would become saturated if you did not have a steady flow peoples leaving.

I personally see RYR's cadet program, as an exceptional way for new pilots to get into the industry, of course us who get knocked backed are going to get disappointed.
I think if it was for the right reasons, it would not be such a bitter people for some to swallow.

I understand I am on the wrong side of the loop, but I know people in their mid 30's, several thousand hours, and not even getting an interview. Not really much to do with this, just let it go on as it will.

If there ever will be a pilot shortage, of course things can change. I heard from my AME who was well connected, that they have so many candidates now, they can pick and choose what they want!

pudoc

7th Jun 2012, 10:59

That's exactly why they take young ones. Young individuals don't have a family and are incredibly good at surviving on little money.

The reason I went modular was to be able to afford money for a TR and living costs. My 100k integrated turned into 60k modular, I now have 40k for type rating, uniforms, living etc as I need it.

Whilst I'm training, I work a couple of hours a week which all goes into my 'living expenses if I end up at RYR' fund.

Not that I'm sure I'll even apply to Ryanair once I'm done.

So to be honest, if you end up at Ryanair and are completely unprepared for the lack of pay and how much money you need then all I have to say to that is you (not you cowhorse I mean this plurally) we're clearly unprepared and didn't research Ryanair and the lifestyle before applying.

I'm at least a year from applying for jobs, but I'm more than ready to battle the low pay with savings I have.

truckflyer

7th Jun 2012, 11:29

Well to use mates of mine as an example, have several at RYR, one just became captain with minimum time, just over 3 years with the company.

Another who started last summer, passed his 500 hour mark before christmas, and is now on the 75 Euro an hour, and for the summer located to Stansted, and doing 80 - 100 hours a month in the summer months.

That is not bad for either of these!

I am aware that the winter months can be low hours, however you need to balance 900 hours over the 12 months anyway, so you just need to balance your budget over the 12 months - and hope you get as close as possible to those 900 hours a year!

Cowhorse, what do you base your numbers on?

I do agree the 737 rating has a very limited market, but to say that the guys are not able to move on after they reach 1500 hours is not correct, an they do not spend more than 2 years to get to 1500 hours!

Of course I can only base this on the people that I actually know that works there.

Yes it does cost more than 27.000 Euros, probably total around 40.000 Euro as you mention, when you add on all the extras.

However if you fly max hours first year, that gives you 55.000 Euros, which as far as I know most people end up doing during the 12 months (900 hours)
Your TR will be completely deductible, so what you would be paying in taxes, has gone to pay for your TR instead, that's the reason they set you up as a limited company.

Second year you will be on around 67500, note this is all before tax of course.

But as I mention your TR cost will take care of most of what you would have to pay in tax anyway, so you actually end up with very little actual cost for your TR, as it is a business expense, which is fully deductible!

For a newly trained pilot, 21 years old, it is a fantastic chance, anybody saying something else is probably just a bit bitter because they did not get the chance themselves.

If done modular, I actually believe you can do for less than £60.000 Pudoc, probably around £40.000 - £45.000 from Zero, but is correct, you still have money to spare compared to the integrated courses, let's be honest, these jobs are the best chance modular have to get airline jobs.

I recall at Oxford for the MCC, their own cadets, who had already payed close to £100.000, was desperate to spend another £30.000 to get into Ryanair, that's when you have to question sanity, or should I say the lack of it!

Another thing, better to be a 500 hours B737 pilot, than a fATPL with no TR and no hours, 300 hours SEP! Seriously, see the perspective of the reality, you have to be in it, to have a chance to compete!

Torque Tonight

7th Jun 2012, 11:32

So much disinformation in your post Cowhorse that it's hard to give a sensible reply. You suggest that pilots get kicked out after 500hrs. Not true: contracts are 5 years renewable, so it is effectively a permanent job in which you average about 800 hours per year. I'm nibbling the legal maximum this month and probably will until the autumn when things will calm down a bit. Pilot's don't leave the company unless they are moving on to another job (which for them would be a positive move otherwise they wouldn't do it) or they're retiring. The reason you get FR pilots commenting on threads like this is to counter some of the tiresome fallacies that get thrown around. Sure, there are plenty of things that could be better for pilots at the company, but to be fair it's a pretty good flying job especially for someone new to the industry. The exodus of senior FOs and junior Captains to BA and Emirates is testament to that.

Once again a thread with a straightforward question about Ryanair gets subverted into drivel.:ugh:

Torque Tonight

7th Jun 2012, 11:59

Funny. The Ryanair bashers were up in arms that there was no minimum hours guarantee. Now there is one, they're up in arms about it.

truckflyer

7th Jun 2012, 12:24

Cowhorse, what nonsense!

Completely based on fiction and a negative mindset.

Minimum hours means exactly that, so you know you will get that paid.

Strange that nobody I know who actually works for Ryanair complains that much. I know few guys unhappy because of their base, but that will always be an issue, regardless who you work for!

I for one was not happy with what happen with me, but still can see the complete picture if I was asked to give other people advice, i would not paint it black, just because I was not given the chance, be a man, and accept what happen, that's life!

Your logic does not make much sense, cheap labour you say? The difference is 25 Euro an hour, I have NEVER heard of a RYR pilot flying close to 500 hours a year as you mention!

Really, I don't agree with all RYR as a carrier for PX side, but for the pilot side, they are pretty well orientated, people leave between 3 - 4 years, unless they stay for command.

If you join when you 20, by the time you are 30 you will have loads of yeard in command, where else could you progress that fast? Sorry, but be objective, you seem to be very subjective in this discussion!

Poose

7th Jun 2012, 12:33

Got to echo Cowhorse on this one...

A friend of mine who joined Ryanair in the last year or so is struggling to get a decent amount of hours and live. He regularly uses social media and I frequently get a blow by blow account of the latest internal politics at Ryanair. Lack of hours and cancelled leave were two of the most recent ones. However, the month's 'leave' (UNPAID - you're contractor's remember!) was greeted by some of his cohorts with relief; as they weren't sure how they were going to be able to eat or pay their rent in that month off.

Live the dream! :rolleyes:

pudoc

7th Jun 2012, 12:37

I actually believe you can do for less than £60.000 Pudoc, probably around £40.000 - £45.000 from Zero

You're right, mine is coming at around the £45k mark. £60k is what I've set aside for it though.

This is why I don't understand integrated students that end up at Ryanair, you could spend half the money and still end up at Ryanair!

Depone

7th Jun 2012, 17:36

Facts about Ryanair.

People say they prefer to recruit pilots in their early twenties because they think youngsters are easier to train than men and women aged 30+. Not true, in fact. Most pilots pass the TR.

The real reason is that they find it easier to control kids in their early twenties who are grateful for a job and think they're the Ace of Base because they fly jets. Earning €35,000 aged 21 is pretty good money when you've not even had to go to University after school...

Only Captains fly max hours of 900 per annum. First Officers average 750 - 800 hours for the first 3 years. You don't fly 900 hours in your first year!

Small bases die over the Winter, so expect to scrape by on 25-30 hours a month. Large bases average about 35-50 hours a month over the winter. For one month per year you earn nothing. Zilch.

For another 2 months a year you only get about 35 hours on average per month because of enforced annual leave - this used to be between February and April but now you get to 'choose' your additional enforced 10 working days off at 'any' time during the year.

The majority of Ryanair pilots complain about the company. I don't know what truckflyer is on about. Obviously not a Ryanair pilot.

The new contract that guarantees a minimum monthly payment makes no difference to the above because the overall annual hours will not be any different and any sensible person will have saved during the good summer for the bad winter months anyway.

As I say, facts about Ryanair.

SD.

7th Jun 2012, 21:07

The younger the cadet, the more willing he is to bend over and take it.

For example,

Pilot A has 200 hours, integrated course fresh out of training with somewhere near on 100k debt (after the type rating). He is 22, probably no children and more than likely not married or in a long term relationship.

Pilot B has 250 hours, modular trained having come from a different working back ground. Not quite as much training debt, and may already have a career he can earn £45k to fall back on. Now comes the crunch, this guy is 37, married with 3 kids who are at school.

Which one would you employ when you're looking for an extremely flexible pilot, one who will relocate to several bases and then float out of base for up to 30% of their working time?

FR do employ over 30-35's, just not many.

plikee

8th Jun 2012, 12:25

Depone, I believe in what you say as you are in the company . But, i have two friends that joined RYR, one last year, the other in 2009. They ended up with almost the 900 hours in the first year.

I think there is no rule that says what max. or min. age, how many hours per moth, etc .. If RYR approach my with a contract only with 40 hours per month? I would grab it with my fingers, toes, teeth, whatever . I would not throw away any opportunity at this moment.

Depone

8th Jun 2012, 13:09

I have NEVER met or heard of an FO at Ryanair who has done 900 hours between May and the end of April. I did 730 according to my logbook. I think my second year was about 100 more. I've worked in both large and small bases...

It may happen in very rare cases. New cadets are ten-a-penny and there is no need to work them hard. Add to that the fact there are delays caused by line training and base changes, means that 900 hours would be rare.

truckflyer

8th Jun 2012, 13:27

You say they get around 35.000 euro a year, flying 750 - 800 hours a year.

It works out 56.250 Euro a year, before tax if 750 hours, after you passed your first 500 hours. Now yes, this is before tax, but with a limited company, you should be able to deduct enough expenses to save you quite a lot in taxes etc., if you have a good accountant, and use your head properly. (business sense) All expenses in connection with your job are deductible when you are a limited company, if you are abroad and need to pay for your food, than this is deductible.

Now Depone, are you a current Ryanair pilot?

Fact is, that if you are novice pilot, with 250 hours TT, getting the chance to fly a jet with such low experience is for sure not the norm!

So you are actually getting paid to gain work experience!

In reality if they did like in the USA, nobody would be able to do this until they had 1500 hours TT, so at the same time you can complain of T & C's, but seriously are you trying to tell me that a fresh FO, with 250 hours TT, is worth more than this? I find the pay fair, compared to experience, there are far worse cases than RYR around in Europe!

You kind of contradiction yourself, saying FO does 750 -800 hours a year, and than talk about the down months, and annual leave!

The guarantee gives the pilot a base minimum average a month, and on that they can make more, end of the day, if they reach 800 hours a year, it is not that bad, as an FO.

Your maths are not the best, because for the life of me, I can't get 35.000 Euro to add up if they fly 800 hours a year.

Remember that TR, will be one big fat deductible expense, so that first 12 months, is money more or less in your pocked + paying the accountant!

wangus

8th Jun 2012, 17:41

Maxed Out and Torque Tonight. Tell me about it!! My straight-forward question has been hijacked, and is drifting past the PNR.... At least I got a few relevant comments. I suspect as I am married, come from a strong union and H & S background, and have worked for a couple of companies, I am not as appealing as the Nod and Zip youngsters.....

Depone

8th Jun 2012, 18:13

Wangus.
Apologies for the thread creep.

Truckflyer
"Facts is facts". Yes, I'm a real Ryanair pilot. €35k for year 1 is after deductions and reflects (a) unpaid line training (b) low paid line training (c) pre-500hr low pay and (d) random events like volcanoes and base transfers. It is also a net figure, with no tax paid because all earnings are the repayment of expenses including the type rating.

Second year is a nasty surprise. Although you earn at a higher rate, you now pay tax and your expenses are actually very low if you are honest. Those expenses you do have: half your mobile phone bill, a new shirt every few months etc, are not that significant. Expenses only really make a difference to your income if (a) you lie to the taxman or (b) you go out of base for a week.

Nobody said you earn bad money. Quite the reverse. For a lad in his twenties with no commitments, who doesn't care about his pension or loss of licence insurance etc, it is fine and will allow him to buy his Porsche on hire purchase. But it is not a lot for a married man with kids. That's why Ryanair prefer employing the younger pilots...

truckflyer

8th Jun 2012, 18:25

I do believe some of the details discussed does explain the reasons some thing that it is ok to be discriminated on age here.

Just because you are over 30/35 or even 40, it seems that some think that, that Ryanair think, that we would not accept these kind of conditions!

However this is amazingly completely outside of touch of reality, as I would believe that 99% of us older guys, knows exactly that we would have to be very flexible in the first years of this new career. If we had thought differently, we would not have chosen to try to get into aviation! Because to be honest, we would have to be insane to want to get into this, without first doing lots of research, and knowing that it would be an uphill struggle from day one!

That's why some of you guys "logic" who is trying to defend the reason why Ryanair does this, does not have any logic, but it is nice way to try to find an excuse!

This is not the first time this question has been raised, and it always ends the same way.
Fact is Ryanair, even if they do NOT pay your training, they do not expect their cadets to be long term with them, they still do not want to invest in long term older pilots!

To be honest, knowing what I know today, most probably would not want to do short haul Ryanair style anyway for the next 22 years!

We can raise this question again and again, nothing will change, Ryanair has a formula they use for their selection, all companies have that! The formula will largely with very few exception exclude anybody above 3X years old, not everybody, but probably 99% of them!

My CV was as good as anyone else's, as I know both got interview and got offered a job! If everybody else from your flight school within few months gets offered an interview by Ryanair, you do know there is something fishy!

Anyway that's the way it is, and unless somebody tries them in a tribunal, it is just to put up or shut up! Fact is that Ryanair will have enough people to show they are not discriminating!

The percentage of "older" pilots, is relative small compared to younger guys, so there is a clear reason why most of the guys are under 30's!

joaocastro

9th Jun 2012, 00:26

CY333

Is this CV "The same CV I used was the one given to students from OAA", available online?
I saw this comment in one of your posts, and I would like to compare it with mine.

truckflyer

9th Jun 2012, 01:22

Depone, understand your point of view, not sure your age is, but fact is that unless there had been a company like Ryanair, you would not have stood a chance to have got your first job flying a jet!
You would have had to gone the old route, instructing, maybe found some impossible air taxi job, if lucky got a MEP or turbo prop job etc.

It would have probably taken you 4 - 5 years, living on "nothing" before you would have had a chance of getting an interview for a job flying a jet!

I think now,companies like Ryanair are here, and giving low hour pilot jobs, it is expected to be the norm! It is not the norm, it is a freak out of nature, of the business! Most companies in Europe do not do these cadet schemes, and if you do get in with companies like BA, Lufthansa, Swiss etc., the odds that you pass their selection is approx. 1 in 100.000, as they set very high initial standards!

Regarding deductibles, well for an "older" guy, it probably would be a second home, to do the travelling etc., so the expense of living abroad would be 100% deductible, and if that was a home away from home, anything you use on food, drinks etc. expenses connected with travelling is also deductible! All depends on your personal situation, and that you have a good accountant that can give you the correct advice.

Thar Ryanair thinks that they would not be able to treat an "older" pilot the same way, while he is getting experience, is in my opinion not the real excuse, as they know that this would not be relevant, end of the day, a contract is a contract, either you are 24 or 40, if you decide to do this, you have to accept the good and the bad!

There is very interesting situation regarding this, I have met a few fighter pilots, who have retired. Some companies are very interested to employ them, others not so much.

Now these guys of course top trained and qualified, many of them due to their operational duties have age of around 40 - 45 years old, and have total time of around 1000 hours, flying Phantom or Tornado's! (note that these aircraft do not count as multi-engine aircraft)

Now if somebody 40 got a job flying a jet, he would in theory have more hours of experience than a 45 year old retired fighter pilot! So the point with this, is that there is still a potential for a good career for an "older" pilot, if given the chance!

When I say i know lot of pilots working for Ryanair that are happy, than this is true, because they know what the alternative would have been!
Some of them waited long, and paid their dues, before their chance, others was pot lucky, and got job within few months of finishing their training!

I think that I speak for 99% of older guys, that none of us would have cared the way Ryanair treated "us" for the first few years, as it is like any job, you must start at the bottom and work yourself up!

If Ryanair has decided their own policy, that they think "older" guys would be more grumpy, well than that is what they have the right to do, as it is their company!
For me though, there is no plausibility for this theory, because anybody who is motivated enough to sacrifice all the time and money on their training, would rather prefer to work for Ryanair for 3 - 5 years, instead of having to go to Tesco, or instruct SEP for the next 3 -4 years!

So I find it fairly fresh and a bit insulting, when a young pilot rookie from Ryanair starts complaining about his awful working conditions!

I know several guys who left for greater things after 3 - 4 years, and if that was the worst part of your career, the first 3 - 4 years, of a 30 + year career, seriously, then that is beggars belief!
Try being self-employed for over 20 years, and see how you cope with that, and you not making any profits or getting any hand outs!

Depone

9th Jun 2012, 09:23

Truckflyer

To be fair, I agree with much of what you say.

Ryanair's policy of employing younger pilots is short term, muddled thinking. I personally know a number of older pilots who would join the Company and be a real asset but they are not given the chance. Ironically, if the same pilots were to get the bare minimum command hours they would be snapped up by Ryanair regardless of the fact that their experience would not be commensurate with their age.

You see, everything about Ryanair's operation, from passengers to pilot recruitment, from operational control to engineering is based on satisfying the lowest common denominator. The Company only cares about short term money.

By the way, I am over 30 and would have quite happily taken the old route if Ryanair hadn't existed.

truckflyer

9th Jun 2012, 09:32

Cowhorse:

What does Ryanair have to do with P2F?

I have a solicitor friend of mine, he went for 2 years with hardly any pay, just to gain experience!

So a newly qualified guy/girl - 200 - 250 hours with fATPL, complaining over work conditions with Ryanair, maybe you should have had a bit work experience in the real life before you joined Ryanair!

I understand there are not perfect BA conditions with Ryanair, and that is the main reason you got the job with Ryanair first, because at the moment nobody else wanted to hire you!

If this is your first proper flying job, get a reality check, you have to be the most ungrateful spoiled brats in this part of aviation!

If life is so miserable, vow......... I am sure there are a few thousand guys who would gladly swap places with you, and see their career start and progress!

Of course going on to better things depends on yourself, one thing is your mobility! If you want to be based and stuck in the UK for the rest of your life, I agree there are limited chances!

Than you have to wait, I know of guys last year that went both to Norwegian and BA, even though Norwegian is low cost, their conditions for experienced guys are better than Ryanair, so yes that is a step up!

If you are willing to move to ME or Asia, there will be chances, but I am pretty sure many are waiting for a chance to apply BA eventually!

However the attitude, the moaning about how terrible it is for you, being 21,22,23 or even 25, and with NO experience, having to suffer such mistreatment as Ryanair does to you, really makes my heart bleed out for you!

And if the problem is that you can't get away after 3 - 4 years, with over 2500 - 3000 hours on type, maybe you simply not good enough!

truckflyer

9th Jun 2012, 09:46

Depone,

I do agree, I would have been happy to done the old route if I had known it would lead to something! And if I had been at least 10 years younger!

However the tragedy now, is that these guys who took the old route, thought it would get them into the right position, after several thousand hours SEP and MEP TT, they discover that nobody wants this experience anymore, not many appreciates this!

So now they are stuck, maybe expired IR's, working for peanuts, unless they pay their own TR and do EJ program P2F they have no chance!

I know one guy, he had over 4000 hours, SEP/MEP - was instructing and air taxi. He was late 30's, 38 or 39, than he paid is own TR without any job guarantee on the 737, by some miracle he got a job in the Middle East, not a very well known company, but was a job, he stayed there or few years, i think around 3 - 4 years, and last year he got a very good job with a European career, where he when he gets his command will be close to £100K a year.

Life is what you make it yourself, and if people like Cowhorse, think that pilots can't get away from RYR, I guess it is because they get early command, and than the pay is good, all depends on the base!

My friend was miserable until now in February when he got told he got temporary base at Stansted for 8 - 9 months, so he could be close to his wife and daughter!

But what i say, you should think of this issues before you go spending £40.000 - £100.000 on training!
There has to be some realism, I know of companies where the pay is much worse than this, and young and older guys get trough it, because end of the day there will be something better coming up in the horizon, but at least you in it, instead of sitting waiting for Mr Godot!

JulesW

9th Jun 2012, 14:51

I agree with truckflyer as most of my younger collegue students got offered job by RYR, or at least an interview, while I never got the chance.

I think that the RYR recruiters are very smart. If you don't want to be accused from being an unequal opportunity employer, it is better to interview once in a while an older candidate and even offer him a job, than sending the older ones a standard mail saying not matching their profile. All the profiles in their database are the same except on sex, age, flight experience and some other stuff of minor importance.

They don't send the older candidates the standard rejection mail because it would be to obvious so they send you nothing, BUT they do this also with younger candidates just as a cover up.

As we all know they only want low-houred pilots and guys/girls makes no difference for them.

For me it's obvious their system is waterproof.
But in my opinion it's their perfect right to do this.

CY333

9th Jun 2012, 21:18

CY333

Is this CV "The same CV I used was the one given to students from OAA", available online?
I saw this comment in one of your posts, and I would like to compare it with mine.

Nope , it was given to me by someone who was there

ster

11th Jun 2012, 15:26

I am early 30's and completed integrated training back in Jan 10. There were 4 people on my course of 21 who were all above the age of 30. All 4 of us have applied to FR via CAE and OAA and not one of us have heard a thing! My 3 housemates from my course applied at the same time as me (early to mid-20's) and were all invited for interview within a couple of weeks. Along with several (in my opinion) weaker candidates have had interviews and got the job. All 3 of my housemates have been with FR now and online for about 18 months. I completed my course 3-4 months quicker than everybody except one on my course with average 95% on GS subjects, First Time CPL/IR (so not bad for an old man gathering duston the shelf). I think the FR scheme is a reasonable scheme, TR cost are offset from personal tax liability as well as expenses so you either pay for your typerating or pay the government the tax (nothing in life is free) and you get invaluable experience on JAR25 Aircraft which puts you in good stead for the rest of your career if you wish to leave FR. When you get out in the big bad world you will find there are a lot of careers that demand you to be away from home, away from the kids but this does not stop other employers in other fields of industry employing you. Ryanair sell themselves as a good company to be a part of, offering you a stable roster which enables you to commute home for free on the network in your uniform. This would not be a problem for me as I could manage being away from home for 5 days then home for 4. This would mean I get more time at home with the kids and wife than I do now! I really hope that Ryanair doesn’t discriminate against age but when you have worked in the world for a while and get a bit of life experience behind you then you realise unfortunately THIS DOES HAPPEN and people are not just delusional or Jealous (well maybe a little) and wish that there DOB wasjust a few years younger. The people I know at Ryanair speak to me on a weekly basis and still haven’t seen anyone come through in there 30’s as fresh FR Cadets! One captain said to me recently they wish they would change their recruitment to include some older candidates as he finds it difficult in his early 40’s to talk to someone in there early 20’s for 12- 14 hrs a day about things other than that necessary to conduct safe flight as they have nothing in common. They tend to have in this captains view poor CRM and interpersonal skills.

Fair play to anyone who is successful with getting an interview and most importantly the Job Offer to match, but think would I have got the same interview with Ryanair if I was 34? Just saying, after all you can’t blame someone’s CV for not getting an offer of interview if their CV hasn’t been requested.

truckflyer

11th Jun 2012, 18:09

I wonder who sets the standards for what CV's should get requested, probably CAE have some responsibility too, as they are the ones cherry picking all the applications as they wish!

That's what makes this complicated, as they can easily blame each other!

wangus

11th Jun 2012, 18:26

Ster,
Our scenarios are EXTREMELY similar, and your situation confirms my fears....

City or Jet

11th Jun 2012, 18:28

Can someone please explain how the TR with RYR costs 40k?! Uniform and other expenses can't add up to 13k unless you're staying in the ritz!

truckflyer

11th Jun 2012, 21:41

They probably mean 40.000 Euros!

27000 euro + VAT, I think that gives you around 32.500 Euros.

Assume a place to stay for 6 weeks, £1500 or - not the Ritz, if you use Ibis, expect around £40 - £50 a night minimum.

So now you getting close to 35.000 Euros.

Some RYR pilot will probably tell you the main details of this, but it takes time from interview approved to you start TR also, a friend of mine waited 6 months from he passed the interview and started the TR!

Waiting around, not being able to commit to any other work, will cost you money too, remember that!
If you lucky you might have some work while you waiting, but who knows what each situation is!

City or Jet

12th Jun 2012, 10:12

Okay so what's the deal with the 6month wait after TR, are you unpaid during line training or is it downtime? Not sure I would feel comfortable being away from the flight deck for 6 months then having to fly my first pax flight!

Biket

15th Jun 2012, 23:22

wangus,

I think in 2010 there was some specific demand for RYR...

Finished in 2010 feb, via CAE, I was 29. All my classmates (9) applied directly through the secretary in a simplified application form which was sent for processing through amsterdam first.

We were a more than decently brewed folks ...

Who got picked ? Simply the most selling ones, 2x 20-22 yo guys, one of them with military experience, the other is an aviation geek and 1x30 yo guy who had the most "visual impact" athletic with some work experience in a field where nice suits were used.

At that precise time they were looking for specific types, nowadays, in the following classes ... sometimes 8 or 9 guys have a chance to get interviews, I'm pretty sure I would have had my chance these days ;) (first passes everywhere ... 93%atpl (but who cares right ? multiple choice questions...)

Tacitus

10th Jul 2012, 07:14

CY333

10th Jul 2012, 11:36

Because other airlines state it on their requirements while Ryan does not and keeps you waiting and never answers........

plikee

10th Jul 2012, 14:05

Someone posted in these forums a link from a vacancy notice from TAP for pilots. I don't know Portuguese but it seemed to me that they clearly stated that the candidates should have 1000 hrs and not be older than 35 (or something like that someone else could clarify this).

TAP is recruiting yes, minimum 1000 TT. About the Portuguese, you have to write and talk fluently but you do not need to have any language proficiency in your licence.

Your qualifications are based in points, eg; if you are 21 years old, you get 8 points and for each year you have you lose 0,5 points until the 35, which you get 0 points if you have that age.

Then, you get points from your flight experience, if you are rated in airbus and have more than 500 in A31X/A32X series or in multi-pilot, etc. You also get points from your educational background and your LPE (level 4 gives you 0 points!)

All this is then factorized - eg, your flight experience counts 40% for your final score, your age 10%, etc.

Your final score will say in what position you are called for the interview - If you are in the top of the list, you are one of the best candidates to fill that vacancy.

Final note: TAP is one of the few airlines that pays your TR. Candidates don't have to pay any cent and, some years ago, you also got paid while you were doing your training (not sure if that still stands). I think that age limit is understandable

(sorry about off topic but was just to clarify as Tacitus said)

rbaiapinto

10th Jul 2012, 15:48

I think that age limit is understandable

Ok, for someone who's in early twenties, age limits are understandable? Of course, you can apply whilst older folks can't! Less competition.

What makes someone, younger than me, better for the job?

Is it the fact of working for over 10 years with different kind of people, the fact of not being so impulsive on my decisions, the fact of being much more mature and thus creating a strong and good working environment around me, the fact that after having a well succeeded career I do know what I want for myself, the fact of being much more responsible and not going out at nights as used to be when I was mid 20's, etc, etc...

It is unfair (just so unfair) to not include someone in a job offer because of age and it is not understandable at all.

Depone

11th Jul 2012, 09:32

Higher age limits are ridiculous in the modern world, and particularly in Ryanair.

Youthful exuberance is far less valuable in an airliner cockpit than maturity and life experience. I've flown with young Captains who clearly have no common sense but have enough hours and SOP adherence to be upgraded.

The idea that there is a training risk inherent in the older candidate is also misplaced. However, if Ryanair actually cared about safety they would be hoovering up pilots with flying experience and paying enough to retain staff.

Apart from the legacy carriers, there is little job security or loyalty, so the value of having cadets and indoctrinating them into a career is utterly pointless. The only counter-argument is that they are so young and impressionable that they will do what they're told without question. Hardly a virtue, hey...

i_like_tea

11th Jul 2012, 14:46

I feel sorry for the situation, and I don't think the airlines should not recruit due to age as it is needed to mix the levels up a bit.

However, comments like the above from rbaiapinto make me loose ALL sympathy and respect.

To suggest that all "young" pilots are out partying and the older ones wouldn't... I love the fact you think that airline lifestyle and shift work even allows for anyone to THINK about going out partying all the time.

To suggest young pilots are all immature and not responsible, wake up..
Oh and that young pilots are "impulsive on decision" ... we are flying a plane.. and we have all been trained to the same standard, but yes, of course, the fact you're older means you will handle ECAM much better than one of the young guys.

Want respect from others? think about what you are implying.

I feel sorry for the situation, but when someone shows such a lack of respect and frankly comes up with bull**** that is dangerous in the public eye, what else can be expected?

rbaiapinto

11th Jul 2012, 17:11

i_like_tea

I think it's not difficult to understand what I've written.

I made the question and replied comparing my actual age to when I was younger and outlining the advantages of being more mature.

The thing is that people should be selected for recruitment processes disregarding age. Which unfortunately doesn't happen. And then the selection process should reveal the better ones, whether they are 20 or 40 or whatever.

That's all I'm implying.

And I don't think I will have any issue handling ECAM, besides training with it, I'm an IT consultant, so all IT stuff it's not really a problem :E

(Please don't say that I'm implying that all older people are top notch with IT stuff :) just joking :ok:)

FlyingStone

11th Jul 2012, 18:12

TAP is recruiting yes, minimum 1000 TT. About the Portuguese, you have to write and talk fluently but you do not need to have any language proficiency in your licence.

Language discrimination on the topic of age discrimination. I don't know any good reason why one shall (not should) have to speak certain language -beside English, which is required by law and basically everything in aviation is written in it. How knowing Portuguese significantly helps one to become a better flightdeck member is beyond me... There are so many airlines in the world (LCC and others) flying mixed-nationality crews without any significant problem - just as long they can all speak English, which they should (ICAO Language Proficiency requirements anyone?) - of course, companies from countries like Spain, France, Portugal, Italy & co. will always demand fluent knowledge of local language, which is probably due to fact that some pilots still haven't reached the operational knowledge of English language (despite having level 5 or 6 written in their licence). Of course, an EU citizen has the right to be employed in all members of EU - theoretically...

Regarding age discrimination I agree - there shouldn't be any difference whether one is 20 or 45 with CPL/ME/IR applying for a jet job. But in reality, the learning curve of a 45-year old will be significantly flatter than that of a 20-year old - we can all agree on that. The more flat the learning curve, the longer the training lasts, the greater costs for the company. I do know that life experience is a very valuable thing to have on the flightdeck, but if it was really that important, legacy carriers wouldn't have cadet programs taking 18+ guys ab-initio, but they would be hiring 40 or 50-year old first officers who have a heap of life experience.

Libertine Winno

12th Jul 2012, 13:03

Slightly off topic I'll admit, but does anyone with a decent accountant/knowledge of the accounting practice know whether you can follow the same trick of offsetting the entire cost of a TR against training for tax purposes, with money that may have been borrowed to finance some modular training?

i_like_tea

12th Jul 2012, 14:17

rbaiapinto - Fair enough, excuse me for feeling the need to defend my young(er) colleagues :O

As I say, I don't agree with it how things are done and wish for the sake of fair opportunities (and for the future of the airline when the cadet bubble all hits command hours) that things were different.

Good luck and all the best.

rbaiapinto

12th Jul 2012, 15:25

Noo Woorries mate! Thx!:)

Avadoo

17th Jul 2012, 19:03

The harsh postings here are much closer to reality than the glass half full responses... Been and done it, late 30's early 40's. Went with instructor, twin and turbo experience. CAE TR was a shambles but has improved, in house is good. T+C post LST are worse.
Never passed 700 hrs P/A in right seat, scraped 800 in left.
Avoid the tax dodges at all cost, as heavy pain is just around the corner for all concerned, flat rate rubbish too.. Sort your own taxes through a proper accountant who will underwrite his work... many claimed accountant outfits dont underwrite properly and in fact the recommended outfit are not accountants at all, just self declaration processors who will run a mile when you are asked for 165K plus interest from the relevent TAX authority after just four years of the encouraged malarky..
Take their hours and experience and put them somewhere worthwhile before getting too tangled in the web. The flying is great experience along with 99% of your workmates and thats it !
For the older ones not getting a look in, might be a lucky escape.... several surprising divorces costing far more than you saved going modular have resulted.
And as for younger being equally responsible...... how does throwing away a light crosswind landing at 75-100 ft (literally hands in the air without warning) and then refusing another sector landing as 'its too dark for me' sound from a 500 hr guy... when actually the root of the problem was playing on x box till the sun came up.... Generally with age and experience come responsibility and awareness.... the fearless stage is well in the past..

G luck. ;)

prg737

31st Aug 2012, 20:26

Hired at 32 recently.
Is that an exception?
What is the age of the oldest cadet?

CY333

2nd Sep 2012, 21:08

Hired at 32 recently.
Is that an exception?
What is the age of the oldest cadet?

Bravo for landing the job.

How long did you wait before you got the invitation for the assessment?

prg737

2nd Sep 2012, 21:57

11 months.

go around flaps15

24th Sep 2012, 21:43