Air France tips?

[Mark in CA]

I'll be flying Air France cattle class for the first time from BUD to SFO via CDG at the end of August. I usually take Lufthansa, and like them very much, but not $300 (33%) more much. Anything out of the ordinary I should know about traveling with them or any tips?

[Tableview]

Pretty good in the air (food and service) but ground service at CDG atrocious. Read some reviews of CDG and you might wish you hadn't. Connecting AF -AF is not too bad, make sure you have plenty of time especially on the return.

[SeenItAll]

I would caution you about the connection in CDG -- especially going from Europe to the US. Flights to the US leave from a separate satellite terminal, and have separate and extra security. Dealing with both will take a lot of time. 45 minutes to an hour is the barest minimum if everything works perfectly. I would not want to schedule a CDG connection in this direction for less then 2 hours.

I've found the reverse connection (arriving from the US and connecting onward in Europe) to be quicker. But I would still try to schedule at least 1.5 hours to be safe.

[betterfromabove]

Agree with other posters. Used to live in France and had to connect through/fly out of CDG quite a few times. Avoid if at all possible. Very low concept of customer service. No comparison whatsoever with LH.

As mentioned, be very suspicious of any transfer of less than an hour and any hope of seeing your baggage arrive on the carousel at final destination. If you end up with a tight connection, forget it, and you will be harried out of the plane by ground staff, piled in a van and driven to the other plane. Your bags won't follow you.

CDG has expensive, poor food (unless can get in a lounge), involves miles of walking, has virtually no cashpoints, public side seating and is hugely confusing. There is a shuttle train now between terminals, but this used to take 20-45 mins or more, depending on which one. The place is 1/5 the size of Paris itself. Oh, and taxis drivers won't drive you anywhere unless they can get 30euro + out of you.

And this is without strikes or security alerts.....

Routinely voted one of the worst airports in the world. With AF not the world's favourite airlines either.

Real shame, because Orly is an old school, lovely place to fly out of, near Paris, friendly taxi drivers and staff, no crowds, no fuss and a whole different atmosphere.

[Capot]

Just to repeat what others have said; if you are leaving from or transferring at CDG, ON NO ACCOUNT should you check in baggage, because you won't see it again.

Well, OK, that's an exaggeration, your chance of seeing it again is in the range 25% - 75%.

[Tableview]

I suppose you are booked on the connections below. The inbound is fine with 3 hours but the outbound at 1:05 is too close for comfort. AF suffer the delusion that the MCTs that they put into the GDSs to get shorter elapsed flying times are realistic. They're not. And if you miss your connection you will see how unhelpful they are at CDG. Unfortunately your only alternative is to overnight at CDG. I hope it goes well but be prepared for the worst and you may get a pleasant surprise!

AF1395 BUD2A CDG2D 1010 1230
AF 080 CDG2E SFO I 1335 1555

AF 085 SFO I CDG2E 1835 1400+1
AF2394 CDG2D BUD2A 1700+1 1910+1

If they've booked you on this one for the inbound, I would try to change it for the one above:
AF 083 SFO I CDG2E 1545 1110+1
AF1994 CDG2D BUD2A 1245+1 1455+1

I had the misfortune to transit this miserable airport quite frequently in the past and it's as said 'Routinely voted one of the worst airports in the world' with good reason.

[Mark in CA]

Tableview and others, thanks for your inputs. Unfortunately, I am booked on AF 083 on the return portion. Nothing I can do about it. I guess I will have to read up on CDG and familiarize myself with the layout.

Fortunately, I will be staying at my home near Berkeley for three weeks, so there is plenty of time for my bag to catch up with me, if necessary. And, it won't contain anything I desperately need, either, as I have clothing, etc. at my home. The same applies on the return trip, although by then my bag will contain some items I will be bringing back with me to resupply, but again nothing I will need right away.

[radeng]

Even the lounge at CDG for BA and AA is unimpressive - besides being out of the way.

Baggage transfer - even 5 hours from AF internal to BA wasn't enough!

[Hotel Tango]

Bags fail to make connections at many airports. Amsterdam, which so many people are fond of (including myself) has suffered this problem for years. My bag missed my connecting flight roughly 50% of my flights through AMS.

I haven't used CDG as often but on a recent occasion when I was due to fly DUS-AMS-ATL my DUS-AMS flight was cancelled. A last minute re-route was organised with AFR/DAL through CDG with a very tight connection. I fully expected to arrive ATL minus a bag, but to CDG's credit my bag had made it with me.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't (even with more time to connect).

[Capot]

so there is plenty of time for my bag to catch up with me, if necessary.

I like an optimist.....

your chance of seeing it again is in the range 25% - 75%.

I chose my words carefully. I could have inserted 'ever' in front of 'seeing'.

[radeng]

My longest lost bag was 13 weeks at ORD on American on the way to Dayton, OH.. Cost them about $1300 all in all.

[tb10er]

AF: good in-flight service.:D

CDG: The pits - avoid at all costs:mad:


Such a pity that CDG spoils AF.

[Mark in CA]

OK, you've all gotten me nervous now, so I visited the Air France web site, and they have a little "calculator" that let's you prepare for transfers at CDG:

Connections at Paris-Charles de Gaulle airport (http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common/guidevoyageur/aeroport/circuit_correspondance_cdg.htm)

I used it to learn that Air France flights from/to Hungary are in terminal 2D while Air France flights to/from the U.S. are in terminal 2E, and that you can walk between these two terminals in 10 minutes. But being that I still walk like a New Yorker, I estimate it'll take me 6 minutes. :) (Note: this is valid only for AF flights.) There's even a terminal map you can download.

A colleague of mine who connects through CDG regularly from SFO to MRS claims CDG is a very efficient airport, better than ORD or ATL.

[Hotel Tango]

I believe that the biggest problem with transfers at CDG is when pax have to transfer within T1 and perhaps also T1 to T2, or v.v. I have done the 2D to 2E and v.v. a few times and I can confirm that that particular combination is indeed a doddle.

[Shack37]

Now that some optimism has at last crept in, I'd like to mention that in many transits through CdG I have never had a lost/delayed baggage incident.
A real pita is the bussing between Terminal 2 and Terminal G especially when your arrival terminal is 2 and the aircraft parks at G, your departure terminal is G so you have to suffer the bus ride back from 2 to G where you deplaned originally. AF never use 2 busses when the sardines can squeeze into one.

[Espada III]

I have flown MAN-TLV-CDG with the attendant increased security and a 45 minute connection. No problems, no lost luggage and very nice airport (although I only used one or possibly two terminals in the 2E/2F range. Connection was easy.

[bedsted]

I have done CDG-ATL several times with AF, I had no choice unfortunately.
Well………..! If in steerage, take a very soft cushion to sit on and I hope for your sake you are less than 5’6” and 150lbs.
As for CDG, take a gps with you.

Bonne chance!

[SeenItAll]

Mark: Please read my post again. I will almost guarantee that you will not make your outbound connection from BUD to SFO. 2D is a long way from 2E, and you will not be leaving for SFO from 2E. Rather, at 2E you will getting on a bus or tram to take you to a satellite terminal off of 2E (see this map (http://www.airfrance.us/common/image/pdf/fr/cdg_terminal_2.pdf) for gates L21-L53). Meanwhile, you will going through at least two sets of security.

If Tableview's schedule is correct, you will have only 1:05 to pass through this gauntlet -- if the inbound is exactly on time and not parked at a remote stand from 2D. In fact, I would say that your bags have a better chance of making the outbound connection than you do. See if you can get a longer connection.

[p1andy]

You should make it in that time. I used to commute to valencia via cdg with a 1hr connection in cdg. This included parking in remote stand, bussing to terminal 2e, changing to 2d, security, then bussing back to aircraft.
The bags however well thats a different story.

[Wannabe Flyer]

AF does not allow the 2 bags to the US anymore and are very sticky on carryon luggage even more so other airlines with 0 flexibility.

[Mark in CA]

Just out of curiosity, what are the passenger rights / airline obligations concerning missed connections if, say, an airline does not provide adequate time between connections, especially if it's all on the same airline? After all, it is the airline that assigns these connections. Passengers do not select individual flight segments.

Update: Answering my own question, I found this document from the London-based Air Transport Users Council:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.auc.org.uk%2Fdocs%2F306%2FAUC%25 20report%2520on%2520missed%2520connections%2520.pdf

In it, it states:

The new rules under Regulation EC 261/2004 have been good news for passengers because they protect them from being out of pocket following a cancellation or delay to their flight or if they are denied boarding. But they do not generally protect them from expenses that they might incur if they miss their connection.

Under an International Air Transport Association (IATA) Resolution, that is binding on member airlines (most network carriers), the “forwarding air carrier” should provide refreshments and hotel accommodation to passengers who miss their connection when connecting from one IATA airline to another.

But the Resolution does not apply if passengers are connecting between two flights of the same airline. Then, it is up to the airline whether it arranges and pays for meals and hotel accommodation.

and then concludes by saying:

...advising passengers with through tickets about what they should expect if they miss their connection is less easy. For connections from one IATA airline to another, passengers should expect to be rebooked onto the next available flight and be offered assistance while they wait. For connections between two flights of the same airline, it is hard to know what to expect because airlines generally don’t commit their policies to print.

We have recently surveyed a number of airlines about their policies on missed connections. Most of the airlines we talked to said that they would usually provide assistance to passengers connecting between two of their flights. But they did not include this in their Conditions of Carriage.

So I guess the take-away is that if you are concerned about connections, choose through tickets using two different IATA airlines. Then you have the best chance of being taken care of properly if you miss a connection.

This raises another question in my mind. What if you in fact book a through ticket on two "different" airlines only to find out they are code shared and both operated by only one of them. Does the two airline rule still apply?

[ExXB]

Mark,
Your contract is first with the airline that issued your ticket, and second with the airline shown on the ticket regardless of the operating airline.

In other words the issuing carrier's Conditions of Carriage apply to things such as ticket issuance, refunds, etc. while the ticketed carrier's CoC apply to things such as missed connections, baggage allowance and liability, etc.

The operating carrier, if different from the ticketed carrier, has a contract with the the ticketed carrier not with the passenger.

Edited to add:

IATA Resolutions are no longer binding - most members apply the provisions but this is at their discretion.

Don't forget that the contracting airline has an obligation to fulfil its core part of the contract. Getting you from your origin to your destination. Although not stated in writing (as the AUC observes) this has always been held up by the courts, and that includes covering reasonable expenses you might incur.

IATA fares are not cheap. In fact they are embarrassingly expensive. The two airlines could have a joint fare at a more reasonable level, but I doubt you would find this on-line.

And sadly the AUC is no longer in business. The powers that be in the UK decided that a small group of industry experts were too old fashioned and have transferred their responsibilities to a bunch of mandarins who know nothing about the business, but who are dedicated to protecting passenger rights, whatever that is.

[Tableview]

Paris -- Charles de Gaulle Airport

CDG got the "worst airport" award two years running from SleepingInAirports.net (http://www.sleepinginairports.net/worst-airports.htm), but this year site owner Donna McSherry decided to give it a break, in part because now "the homeless population was being segregated" to "the Third World inspired Terminal 3." Big takeaway here: If you're worrying about how to distribute your homeless population, you're one of the worst major airports.

De Gaulle is a huge airport where many people have to transfer, but it's an awful airport to change planes in; many flights require a change between CDG's various scattered terminal buildings, which are connected primarily by slow, confusing shuttle buses. Changing planes here is tiring, irritating, and sometimes a little terrifying.

This being Paris, there is also usually a strike on.
Read more: Paris -- Charles de Gaulle Airport, Terminal 3 - The 10 Worst Airport Terminals Slideshow at Frommer's (http://www.frommers.com/slideshow/index.cfm?group=786&p=8#ixzz1xHxbVrFn)

[Mark in CA]

This has all been very enlightening. I don't usually worry about connections. I seem to have very good travel karma, and have never experienced an excessive delay because of a transfer.

One time in Chicago, my inbound flight was held on the tarmac for 45 minutes, causing me to miss my connection. As it was getting pretty late, the airline (United) told me there were no more flights and gave me a hotel voucher, and I was literally on my way out of the terminal when I heard a PA announcement for another United flight in final boarding for my destination. I ran like crazy to the gate, which had already closed when I got there, but as the plane was still sitting there, they opened the gate for me to get on. It turned out to be an extremely late flight from earlier in the day that for some reason had not shown up on the computer system, and I flew home on a virtually empty 747 that got me home only an hour later than originally scheduled.

Fortunately, this upcoming trip is not time critical. No meetings to attend. I'm just visiting my home in the Bay Area for a few weeks to take care of a few things and spend some time with friends. If I arrive a day late, it's no big deal. Ditto on the return trip.

Last time I experienced a serious delay, my flight got into SFO so late that there were no longer any trains running to take me home from the airport. Instead, I wound up getting a ride from my seatmate, whose sister was picking him up and lived only a mile from me. The seatmate turned out to be the principle oboist of the Philadelphia Orchestra.

Life is an adventure!

[Chuchinchow]

I have flown MAN-TLV-CDG with the attendant increased security and a 45 minute connection. No problems, no lost luggage and very nice airport (although I only used one or possibly two terminals in the 2E/2F range. Connection was easy.

MAN-TLV-CDG?

That's a very roundabout way of getting to Paris.

[Espada III]

Whoops!

I mean of course MAN-CDG-TLV!

[Mark in CA]

Well, my connection at CDG this past Friday went very well, despite the warnings from others here. My BUD to CDG flight was right on time, but instead of a gate, we parked on the ramp and had to be bused into Terminal 2D. It took me 45 minutes to make the journey to Terminal 2E, learn which gate I had to get to, figure out where I had to go within 2E to get to my gate and go through passport control and security. Turned out my connecting flight to SFO was delayed by 45 minutes, but I would have made it in time even if it wasn't.

The irony is that I usually take Lufthansa to SFO through FRA, but it's a good thing I took Air France this time because the LH flight attendants happened to go on strike the day I traveled, and those LH flights flight were cancelled.