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750XL
30th May 2012, 01:35
Hello,

I've tried googling the following question and also asking various people in work (but not yet the union rep, as he's away) and have yet to find any firm answers, so I was hoping someone at PPrune may be able to help.

The scenario:

I've applied for a days leave, on let's say the 4th July. Leave has been granted, and I have a leave slip saying 4th July is confirmed as a days holiday. Our work rosters are released, and on the 3rd July they have me working 2200-0600, meaning I will finish work at 0600 on the 4th July, which is a day I have used a days holiday for.

The company are claiming this is perfectly legit, as the shift starts on the 7th. However, I cannot understand how it's legal to be forced to work 6 hours of a day you have used leave for :sad:

I don't work as a pilot or anything, just you're standard company.

Any tips or pointers in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

Kindest Regards,

mixture
30th May 2012, 08:33
750XL,

Employment law in the UK and Europe is a ghastly exercise in complexity. In all cases, you should really be getting tailored advice for your own personal circumstances rather than relying on some individuals on an internet forum who may or may not know what they are talking about or have the expertise that they purport to have. Employment law is amongst the fastest changing legislation out there because there are always new precedents coming out, or new missives from the Brussels sprouts.

Have you looked at your contract of employment ? You'll probably find days leave are calculated in terms of "working days", not calendar days. Things probably get more complex very quickly once you introduce the concept of night shifts, however you're likely booking off the night shift that starts on the day of your intended leave rather than the one that starts the prior day, however your employer may meet you half way and let you go for the second half of the shift that's in the calendar day of the working day you've booked off.

But then I'm no employment lawyer or union rep.

Firestorm
30th May 2012, 08:41
Perhaps you should talk to your line manager and ask him to be reasonable, and then to your union rep to ask where you stand legally, and with respect to any local agreement.

Sallyann1234
30th May 2012, 09:25
Well it all depends on what your contract says, but if I was working shifts I would naturally look at the regular shift patterns when deciding what time to book off, and specify which shifts I would be unavailable for.

parabellum
30th May 2012, 13:26
have me working 2200-0600, meaning I will finish work at 0600 on the 4th July, which is a day I have used a days holiday for.





but will not be required to report for night duty on the 4th July, that being the day/date/night you have requested off? Next duty 22.00 5th July? Yes or No? I may have misunderstood this. I think, since you work night shifts, that you should have asked for the NIGHT of the third and fourth off.

stuckgear
30th May 2012, 13:33
good point PB !

Worrals in the wilds
30th May 2012, 14:52
I don't know anything about the UK, but in Australia this is standard for shift workers, including the several shift positions I've had myself. The only option here is to take the previous night shift off as leave.

Now the roster is released, are you rostered on for the night of the fourth as well? If not, can you swap the leave application to the third?

Anyway, that's just for comparison. As previously stated, the best plan is to contact your union or staff rep. If they're away, there should be someone else in the organization who knows. If you have to, remind them politely that you pay dues. ;)

anotherthing
30th May 2012, 14:56
Standard in the company I work for... if you ask for leave on the 4th, you could easily (unless you specifically ask not to, and the roster can work around you) work a night-shift in the 3rd, finishing at 0700 on the 4th, the day of leave.

I'd have thought it was common practice for shift workers... that's one of the reasons shift allowance is paid for.

hellsbrink
30th May 2012, 15:02
but will not be required to report for night duty on the 4th July, that being the day/date/night you have requested off? Next duty 22.00 5th July? Yes or No? I may have misunderstood this. I think, since you work night shifts, that you should have asked for the NIGHT of the third and fourth off.

Exackerly what I was going to say but couldn't since I was at work.

It's your WORKING day that you are taking off, not a 24-hour period. Otherwise, they would need to replace someone for part of the second half of one shift and then more than the first half of another (example, depends on shift pattern). How the heck do you schedule things like that without paying a bit too much in overtime and bonuses to someone who is willing to bugger up their own schedule for a part of a shift?

cockney steve
30th May 2012, 15:06
AFAIK, you are still entitled to take leave by giving notice which is not less than 2x the amount of leave required. just re-submit your request, with revised hours.

The employer has a right to refuse your request, if it will cause severe disruption to his business.

Thank heavens I'm no longer a UK employer....the red-tape is a total nightmare, as is getting rid of staff who are fine for the period needed to qualify for the security, then proceed to screw you stupid :sad:

750XL
30th May 2012, 15:48
Thanks for all the replies :ok:

The company I work for are exceptionally poor in all areas of looking after their employees, and after speaking to my line manager about it yesterday I was told (her actual words) "tough, you'll have to live with it" :ugh: They blatantly disregard the law and contractual agreements all the time but nothing ever seems to get done about it. We're regularly rostered only 8 hours 'down time' between shifts, I believe the legal minimum without prior consent is 10 hours.

Hey ho :}

OFSO
30th May 2012, 15:50
I find all of this most confusing. In the days when I worked shifts and needed time off, I'd go to the shift supervisor and sort it all out well in advance. Mind you there were no last-minute rosterings unless someone was ill or needed urgent leave. No question of a day's leave somehow being a strict 0800-1700 (or whatever) applied to shift workers.

750XL
30th May 2012, 16:29
It's complicated for as we don't have fixed shifts, or fixed anything.

6 on 3 off pattern, contracted to 20 hours but can be rostered anything between 20 and the legal maximum (whatever that is). Our shifts can be 4 hours long or 12 hours long depending how the company feels. We can be shift changed with 3 days notice, and 'line changed' with 10 days notice. You can have a week of earlies, week of nights, week of lates, or a mix of all of them (as long as there are 8 hours 'down time' between shifts) so it's impossible to plan anything really.

vulcanised
30th May 2012, 17:49
After that, we could have great fun guessing what you do.

A prostitute ?

racedo
30th May 2012, 21:02
Have a chat with HR for clarification.

Just because idiot manager says it doesn't mean its HR policy.

Course manager may be upset but response is that I sought HR clarification on the issue is valid and if he wrong then get HR to clarify.

Any negative response from line manager then becomes a bullying issue as you asked HR to clarify your understanding of something and feed that back as well to HR.

gingernut
30th May 2012, 22:48
Wag it.

only kiddin'

ExSp33db1rd
31st May 2012, 00:18
The Law Is An Ass.

When I retired I was denied a 3 day working roster ending the day before retirement because The Rules said that I had to have 2 days rest after a flight before retirement. The fact that I was going to 'rest' for the rest of my life was not allowed.

So 'they' paid me to stay at home for the 3 days that I wanted to work, then I was allowed to retire 'legally'.

I was highly p****d off because I'd planned that trip, which was the last time I was going to visit New York - and haven't since, not that it is the greatest city in the World, but I always enjoyed my visits - and wanted to !

Worrals in the wilds
31st May 2012, 06:00
Wag it. Can be fraught with danger. :eek:

I didn't know him personally but when I was OHMS one legendary departmental bludger took a sickie to go to the cricket. Not only did he feature prominently on the TV cricket broadcast, but also on the local evening news being carted away in a paddy wagon for throwing a beer can at a police officer. :ouch:

Apparently he turned up the next day looking sheepish to be greeted with a round of applause from the troops and a roar from the boss's office along the lines of 'YOU! IN HERE.' He went on to have a stellar career so it obviously didn't do him too much harm. :cool:

On a serious note, I agree with racedo.

Also, I notice you seem a little vague about your employment conditions. In my opinion, anyone who works for wages has a duty to themselves to understand the terms of their employment. I'm not saying you should know every clause word for word, that's only for union reps or professional malingerers (and sometimes one person can be both:ooh:), but everyone should know what their rights and obligations are, as well as the company's. Otherwise you can get screwed over without realising it, or wade into murky waters because you inadvertently breached an internet usage policy or similar.

My advice is to get a hold of your terms of employment and familiarise yourself with them. I don't know how that works in the UK but I assume you have either a collective agreement, an individual agreement or some sort of award? This is what you should be reading, along with the UK's basic labour laws.

Then you will know the answers to most of your questions (such as the minimum turnaround, which in Australia varies between 8-10 hours depending on the employer) without having to rely on workplace hearsay, which is often wrong. Additionally a lot of middle managers have NFI about emloyment conditions and can bumble on for years telling people the wrong thing. If you know your rights and responsibilities (and they'll be written down somewhere), then you're much less likely to get pineappled.

Anyway, I hope you find a job you like, and I'm not having a go at you or trying to be mean; a lot of workers are the same.
Cheers from a workplace rabble rouser/occasional union heavy :}.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Eureka_Flag.svg/50px-Eureka_Flag.svg.png :)

racedo
31st May 2012, 08:54
On a serious note, I agree with racedo.

Not words known on Jet Blast :O

Ancient Observer
31st May 2012, 13:19
I am about to reveal myself as a serious saddo.

I have in front of me, (OK, slightly to the left of in front of me as the key board is in front of me) the "Salary and Payment Conditions for Weekly Staff" for a very big old corporate. It happens to be the 1984 one, but I can also find the 1969 one.....which probably says the same thing.

In Section 2, middle sentence........ "A salary week is from 6.00am Monday to 6.00am Monday..................a day will be from 6.00am to 6.00am"

So even one of our best regarded employers, (which no longer exists) said that a day starts at 0600.