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Ovation
29th May 2012, 08:43
Just heard on CH7 news an aircraft is overdue/missing en-route to YMIA.

UPDATE:

From News Ltd.

POLICE and aviation rescuers are searching for a man who hasn't been seen since he took off from an airfield in New South Wales's far south west yesterday morning.
Police have been told the 79-year-old left in a single-engine Cessna from Wentworth, about 30km north-west of Mildura, 10am yesterday.

Shortly before 3pm police were alerted when he failed to return.

A search was initiated and continued today involving several local pilots who volunteered to look for the missing man.

Checks have showed the aircraft has not refuelled at any of the airfields within the estimated fight range.

The man is from Mildura, in Victoria.


Read more: Elderly pilot missing near Mildura | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/elderly-pilot-missing-near-mildura/story-e6frfku0-1226372984570#ixzz1wFsafLjj)

falconx
29th May 2012, 11:12
EN based dornier is overhead, AD rescue 51 is enroute, CB based conquests en route, a lot of effort for an a/c overdue more than 38 hours ago

Ex FSO GRIFFO
29th May 2012, 11:38
I know what it is that you say Mr F, but imagine IF the pilot was simply trapped in a wreck, and waiting....waiting....waiting.

Hope its all good news.....:)

VH-XXX
29th May 2012, 13:13
If you were in that situation a hundred aircraft looking for you wouldn't be enough!

A hell of a lot of ground to cover unfortunately unless they have some hard data on a last known fix. May the result be a good one.

Jabawocky
29th May 2012, 13:23
A plan in the system would help.

Perhaps even a good network of VHF receivers and an onboard transmitter with ID, LAT LONG and all the other stuff............ I would reckon that should have been around for a while now.... :hmm: Would not be all that expensive either when one is faced with a long wait for help.:hmm:

Just sayin!

Ex FSO GRIFFO
29th May 2012, 16:47
Gee Jab, the guy was only going from Wentworth to YMIA,....actually 13nm direct....that's like around the training area for some of us....but an EPIRB would assist greatly..(?)
Unless.....

And, yes, I do agree that every pilot should tell someone where / when they are going....'SAR with 'Mum' is good.

Cheers, and still hoping.....

Jabawocky
29th May 2012, 21:30
Gooday Griffo.

Yes a Plan in the system for a 13nm trip is a bit silly but advising someone of your local jolly plans is not a bad idea, and even so, the argument could be said that a local jolly might not warrant that either.

However a suitable airborne enabled, navigation system based, transmitter maybe of the 1090ES type would certainly make it pretty easy to find you. But of course many folk get all upset at the idea of GA having to equip, big brother watching you and all that crap. :ugh:

Right now is a pretty good case for having such a feature, and a suitable coverage from ASA would help. I think you know what I mean :ok:

Kulwin Park
29th May 2012, 21:57
I wonder if it's EP? Only just saw him a few months ago up that way... Hope all ends well

OZBUSDRIVER
29th May 2012, 23:33
Agree 110%, Jaba. Without incurring the wrath of learned members, I will just say that even for this short trip a suitably equipped aircraft and properly rolled out ground station system would be a life saver ,and in this case, a saver of a couple of million in SAR aircraft use age.

Hope there is a good outcome.

Old Akro
30th May 2012, 00:05
You can just about see Mildura from the Wentworth circuit. The direct route goes over Wentworth and most of it is over moderately intensive farming land. There's only about a 5nm stretch where you wouldn't be seen by someone on the ground. I think something unpredictable has happened.

VH-XXX
30th May 2012, 00:36
He wasn't actually flying from Wentworth to Mildura, he is from Mildura, conceivably with hangar at Wentworth.

It’s believed the man told friends that he intended going on just an afternoon flight on Monday.

Flying Binghi
30th May 2012, 01:35
.


via OZBUSDRIVER;
I will just say that even for this short trip a suitably equipped aircraft and...

"Suitably equiped aircraft"... Aircraft mounted ELTs (EPIRB) have been around fer years.

Perhaps Jabawocky and OZBUSDRIVER can tell us what brand of ELT they have fitted to their aircraft ?





.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
30th May 2012, 02:14
Hi Jab, and Oz,

Just to take this a little further.....with all due respect.....

Re -"and a suitable coverage from ASA would help."

NO ATS Unit has the capability to monitor 121.5 or any other 'distress freq'.
(Unless things have changed since F.S.......O.K. - I'll leave that sentence there....

[SIZE="2"]Imagine the VHF range of an aircraft on the ground, or in close proximity to the ground, at a 'reasonable' distance of say 30nm.
Nil signal to the ATS ground based antenna.
Sometimes we could be lucky and have a Mt Canobolas near Orange NSW, or similar nearby, but not many of those around OZ.

As an FSO, the ONLY time I ever had the facility to monitor 121.5, was during an exercise out of Derby when we were given a 'Bayside' portable VHF for the duration of the exercise, and would you believe it...yes - I actually used it to contact a 'high-flier' on ATC freqs to relay to an 'overdue' low level aircraft. Magic.

EPIRB is the answer I would say.
Unless.....

Cheers:ok::ok:

LeadSled
30th May 2012, 03:30
"Suitably equiped aircraft"... Aircraft mounted ELTs (EPIRB) have been around fer years.

Folks,
And they are a complete waste of money, with a better than 90% failure rate in practice, in real world bingles as was demonstrated in studies that resulted in the current regulations allowing portable ELTs.

The effectiveness and cost/benefit studies that resulted in the current regulations were confirmed in the post implementation review, required by the legislation, and carried out by CASA.

Nothing has changed since then!!

Likewise, the proposition that we have some form of "ADS-B for all" completely fails even the most generousness (biased in favour) studies of the cost of having low level coverage of ADS-B of sufficient geographical magnitude to cover most of Australia.

I can't remember the numbers now, but the Airservice study to provide ADS-B coverage to 5000' AMSL was something like 350 stations, about ten time the present planned coverage. There isn't even enough planned satellite capacity planned to handle a fraction of that number of ground stations, let alone all the other costs involved.

Aviation in Australia is already drowning in a red tape sea of regulatory costs, please don't advocate more.

Tootle pip!!

Frank Arouet
30th May 2012, 06:33
Notwithstanding all the "advice", and without trying to prejudice the actual facts as they emerge, and the fact the pilot was 79 years of age would suggest to me he may have fell through some of the medical cracks. Possibly as a result of a stress ECG performed days before?

Some questions should be directed to the CAA perhaps?

Jabawocky
30th May 2012, 06:46
Griffo, I think you missed the subtle suggestion that if ASA had a few more ground stations and aircraft were equipped with ADSB out, ATC would be able to point the rescue teams very quickly to the last known position, ;)

And maybe the Buzzbumbers dumb question is answered there too. ADSB makes a really good suppliment to a GPS based EPIRB.

And yes Buzzbomber, I do have both.

Hailstop3
30th May 2012, 07:14
And they are a complete waste of money, with a better than 90% failure rate in practice, in real world bingles as was demonstrated in studies that resulted in the current regulations allowing portable ELTs.

I would have to disagree completely here. Maybe 'studies' have been shown to have only a 10% success rate of activation of the ELT, but I know I would want that 10% as opposed to none if the worst was to happen.

In addition to this, about 5 years ago, the property I was a pilot on in north queensland was called by AusSAR saying there was a beacon going off nearby and to check our 2 aircraft. A little while later it just so happened that the ELT was in a chopper belong to the property owner's brother in law, and the owners sister had rung us saying he was overdue. AUSSAR then gave us the coordinates of the ELT as it was a 406mhz unit. Unfortunately it had just gone dark. We found the crash after 2 hours of air to ground search with a UHF and 3 4wds. This was 5 hours after the crash, as was displayed on the analogue clock when we returned to the crash site 2 days later. The victim ended up in hospital for a month afterwards, and I would hazard a guess at saying, if that elt hadnt sent out such specific and valid GPS coordinates that we confirmed days later were spot on, and that we didn't find the site, or if the elt was not installed, and since he was in a bad way I'm sure turning a portable one on himself, if it was even near where he lay would have been difficult, once again I would say there may be one less life on this earth.

Anyway enough story telling, is there any updates on the missing plane in question?

Frank Arouet
30th May 2012, 07:54
I'll go so far as to suggest the ELT in the chopper wasn't "GPS enabled", if that's the term for such a device. But to put the ADSB argument into the debate is verging on the "massdebate" when one considers, say, the Benalla crash. There is nobody looking for "paints" that go missing OCTA in the GAFA especially on a 30nm flight from Wentworth to Mildura.

Talk about political mileage out of a wide circuit incident.

ADSB won't stop a medical accident and the matter shouldn't include such nonesense as ADSB for such a flight.

Parachutes next?

FRQ Charlie Bravo
30th May 2012, 08:38
There is nobody looking for "paints" that go missing OCTA in the GAFA especially on a 30nm flight from Wentworth to Mildura.

Frank,

Is the question not about looking for almost-real-time missing paints in the GAFA but more about being able to pull the info once an aircraft is reported missing?

FRQ CB

LeadSled
30th May 2012, 08:38
I would have to disagree completely here

Marcuste747,
You have, of course, confirmed that each of the units, to which you refer was a fixed ELT. For handhelds, the figures are more or less reversed, with the failure to broadcast when activated being very rare.

What other aviation "safety" device with a better than 90% failure rate would you recommend - on the off chance it worked. You are quite free to fit your aircraft with a fixed ELT if you wish, as long as you understand that it is very unlikely to aid in your rescue in the event of an accident.

There is a damned good reason why several state government actually require portable ELTs be carried on aircraft used on contract, whether they are fitted with a fixed ELT or not.

Remember, I am not quoting "my opinions", I am quoting facts --- and the facts are well and truly in, fixed ELT are a waste of money.

Indeed, the false activation rate of fixed ELTs is another major shortcoming, with the advent of every new TSO since the original C129, claims have been made about reducing the false activation rate, without noticeable result.

Tootle pip!!

Fantome
30th May 2012, 09:08
HERALD-SUN'S WEBSITE TONIGHT -



A PILOT missing for more than 55 hours has been pronounced dead after search and rescue crews discovered the wreckage of a light aircraft near Wentworth in New South Wales this afternoon.

A spokesperson from the Australian Maritime Safety Authority confirmed a search and rescue helicopter deployed as part of the operation to locate the elderly pilot from Mildura had located debris about 10km west of the Wentworth airfield late this afternoon.

Trojan1981
30th May 2012, 09:34
That's bad news, and coming a long time after the aircraft failed to arrive-regardless of the previous debate. RIP. :(

VH-XXX
30th May 2012, 09:54
News tonight was reporting he left his diabetes medication in his car....

Rest in Peace old mate in the hope that you exited this life doing something that you loved.

mickjoebill
30th May 2012, 10:00
A relevant thread from a few weeks ago.
http://www.pprune.org/7181245-post31.html

Without smoke it can be very difficult for a ground crew to find a crashed aircraft.
Wearing a PLB is one solution but if very severely injured the wearer may not be able to deploy.

How about a PLB that can be armed before flight that will then activate via a timer, after a defined period ie 10 min after predicted fuel exhaustion.
A buzzer vibration would warn the wearer of the impending activation where it could be reset if there is no emergency.



Mickjoebill

T28D
30th May 2012, 10:22
Sad stuff but how about a Flight Note left with a responsible person.

Electronics wont solve every problem.

Frank Arouet
30th May 2012, 11:02
And the best advice is?

Well, what would, have prevented this,............ ADSB?

Before some of you go off, think about your proposals and asertions, think pro-active. Strict liability would have someone to blame, perhaps the DAME/CAA medico extortionists?

But ADSB is the panacea isn't it?

Rest in peace mate, and if you get PPRune up there, ignore the screeching few who would make B050 controlled airspace.

OZBUSDRIVER
30th May 2012, 12:07
Francis, you always hope that just something could make a difference.

jas24zzk
30th May 2012, 13:11
Frank.....

Notwithstanding all the "advice", and without trying to prejudice the actual facts as they emerge, and the fact the pilot was 79 years of age would suggest to me he may have fell through some of the medical cracks. Possibly as a result of a stress ECG performed days before?

Some questions should be directed to the CAA perhaps?


I disagree there. Even a class 2 holder at that age is subject of rather frequent testing. If there was an issue it would have been picked up, or even the medical holder noticing a change, and seeking relevant advice.

Our CFI is in his early to mid 70's and is as fit as a fiddle.,,probably capable of spending longer on the end of a log splitter than myself.

One could say he noticed a change, but chose to ignore it. Hmm interesting concept. Prolly more true of an invincible 20yo. You don't get to 79 by ignoring your health.
---------------------------------------------

Flightnotes/Sartimes.

What strikes me as odd, is that they had an idea where to look, i.e he told someone where he was going/what he was doing, and it took 36 hours (give or take some) for him to be reported missing.

I'll take a punt that he told the reporter what he was up to, but it wasn't formalised as a flight note, so therefore the person he told thought nothing of waiting for him, nor did said person expect a call to say it all went well.
Maybe thats something we should all consider when we do our short flights.
i.e in my case. Hey mum, just gunna take a warrior up to mansfield and back, be about 4 hours. Will give ya a call when i get back.
------------------------------------------------------

Epirbs/Elt's etc.

This tragedy has raised some interesting points.. Personal Beacon Vs Fixed.
I prefer the fixed and its automated activation if required, but some have hinted that they do not always activate. Then there is the difficulty of reaching the portable unit. How about a necklace style panic button that activates whichever type you connect it to....so if you are trapped, not a lot of movement needed to activate the beacon?


-----------------------------------------------------

My condolences to the family and friends of the gentleman involved.

Regards
Jas

Old Akro
30th May 2012, 14:41
My instructor at the Thai Flying Club recently turned 80. Looks 60, flies like he's 50. Age alone is not a good predictor

If the aircraft was 10km west of Wentworth, then it was pretty much in the opposite direction from where it should have been going for Mildura. Flight notes / Flight plans etc aren't much help if you don't fly where they suggest.

Sad incident, but sometimes bad things happen.

Also worth noting that at low altitude he may not have had radio coverage with ML CTR and there's certainly no radar.

VH-XXX
30th May 2012, 20:45
I'm yet to read anywhere that he was actually flying to Mildura.

He lived in Mildura but had a hangar at Wentworth and went for a local flight.

No flight note or notice to anyone, so nobody knew where to look hence the 100 sq km search area.

Aussie Bob
30th May 2012, 21:07
I am yet to read a single piece of anything other than speculation on this whole thread.
The guy could have died at the controlls, comitted hari kari, played crop duster whatever. It is doubtful that the best electronics and a comprehensive "plan in the system" would have changed anything. Condolances to him and his family and all that but there is nothing here that will make me think twice about going out solo with no sar and no details tomorrow. My life, my choice.

You can wax lyrical about costs for SAR but its all BS, the SAR system is already in place and for the most part funded before the event. Lucky we live in Australia.

rioncentu
30th May 2012, 21:45
Found him last night.

Was a member of a 172 association I has opportunity to converse with in the past.

RIP


http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/news/local/news/general/body-found-big-search-locates-mildura-pilots-crashed-plane/2574996.aspx (http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/news/local/news/general/body-found-big-search-locates-mildura-pilots-crashed-plane/2574996.aspx)

Modesetter
30th May 2012, 21:52
He lived in Mildura but had a hangar at Wentworth and went for a local flight.

This is quite correct, quite a lot of the "Weekend Warriors" here base their aircraft at Wentworth, for a few reasons:

- Much cheaper A/C parking and hangerage than at YMIA.
- No need for an ASIC, as YWTO is not a Secure AD, but YMIA is.

As for flying from YWTO to YMIA, by the time you opened you hanger, rolled out your A/C, do your pre-flight, light the fire and run it up, you would already be there by car.

There is fuel available 24/7 at YWTO, and no LAMEs or other services at YMIA,

The area 10km West of Wentworth is grey and white river run-off flats, would make Ron's 172 quite hard to spot .'

Skywagon1915
30th May 2012, 22:11
As a local RAA CFI, I take any requests to hold a Flight Note (even by phone or Txt Msg) as a serious obligation.

I set my mobile phone alarm clock for what is an agreed ETR etc (so as not to forget myself) and I expect the pilot to Txt me on arrival at his first leg as well as the return home. Otherwise it gets really messy, you have to carry the SAR time in your head even if you have knocked off work. I ask everyone not to simply leave a note at the airport and hope that someone will lob in and see it hopefully.

The Txt msg system is very effective and still works at locations where signal is poor. For areas with no comm's, I rely on the return call.

osmosis
30th May 2012, 22:17
Aussie Bob has it for me. Amen.

Old Akro
30th May 2012, 23:29
Sorry, I followed the first thread which said he was enroute to MIA. Agree with Aussie Bob. But reiterate the point that flight notes etc only have value when they indicate where you are going and therefore point to where you might be.

kimwestt
30th May 2012, 23:52
A bit off the thread, I know, but I wonder which "low level" that was Griff?

1a sound asleep
31st May 2012, 04:03
RIP

https://www.facebook.com/ron.woulfe

rjtjrt
31st May 2012, 05:03
In all this discussion no one has bought up the value or otherwise of Spidertracks/ Spot etc.
In this case it may have been of value.

Also, with regard to flight notes, make sure the person you give it to knows specifically what to do if you are overdue. Mum/girlfriend/person manning the desk etc may not have any idea what to actually do if you are overdue.

It is a sad day for one family.

John

baswell
31st May 2012, 07:22
In all this discussion no one has bought up the value or otherwise of Spidertracks/ Spot etc.
I came back here to say the same thing. For SAR, a $200 spot will be much more useful than and $20,000 ADS-B installation in an aircraft that spends most of its time away from metro areas and below 5000 feet.

Frank Arouet
31st May 2012, 07:41
My instructor at the Thai Flying Club recently turned 80. Looks 60

They all look the same to me.

I know an 80 year old, smoked all his life and still hasn't died of cancer. Another bloke recently deceased at 52 never smoked, but died of a lung related cancer.

In all this discussion no one has bought up the value or otherwise of Spidertracks/ Spot etc.
In this case it may have been of value.

Nobody reported him missing for how long?

Spidertracks would be manned by whom?

Give the man a break, he was just flying and probably believed he was free to go where he wished in Class G local without someone playing big brother. At least that's the way I believed it to be. How times change.

OZBUSDRIVER
31st May 2012, 08:32
Baswell, you need to get out more.....$20,000....realy?

LeadSled
31st May 2012, 08:46
but some have hinted that they do not always activatejas24zzk,

Can't you read, nobody has "hinted" at anything. Facts, just simple and unadorned facts.

The findings of the failure rate of fixed ELTs is public information, on which a regulatory change was based (the safety case) and confirmed by the CASA post implementation review of the amended regulation ---- of the effectiveness of the regulation.

If you look at US (CAP and others) figures, and the running figures here, the failure rate of fixed ELT, in practice, is better than (or worse) than 95%. Even when mounted in the tails of large aircraft that have crashed (usually mounted beside the crash recorder) the failure rate of those studied- all for which information was available. was 100%.

Do you really want to "depend" on a very expensive device ( anything between $3000 -7000 including mounting to CASA requirements) that has sod all chance of working in the real world.

Tootle pip!!

Oz,
I'll go with Basewell's cost --- and then some ---- for an ADS-B, installed and working to the CASA TSO --- not non-conforming el-cheapos from EASAland.

spriteah
31st May 2012, 09:25
Wreckage of missing plane found near Wentworth

Wednesday, 30 May 2012 08:33:22 PM
Police from Barrier Local Command are preparing a report for the information of the Coroner after a man’s body was found in the wreckage of a light plane, west of Wentworth, this evening.

A search helicopter spotted the wreckage of the plane 10km west of the Wentworth airfield shortly before 5.30pm today (30 May).

Police had been working Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) searching for the plane since the pilot left Wentworth, about 30km north-west of Mildura, 10am Monday (28 May).

Search crews confirmed the pilot, a 79-year-old man from Mildura, did not survive the crash.

runway16
31st May 2012, 22:11
The subject of ELTs is an ongoing debate.

When first made compulsory by CASA AOPA argued that they should be a case of fixed installation or else portable. AOPA got its way.
Both cases have proved they have a negative side.

If the aircraft ditches or gets burnt out the ELT goes with it and is therefore useless.
There have been accidents where the ELT has not tripped with the impact. I am of the understanding that the FAA is working to have new models developed that will work better, in short work when they are needed. I spoke with an ASA officer at a seminar earlier this year but he had no knowledge of the FAA work but I believe that the FAA work is going ahead.

For myself I still find aircraft that do not have a fixed installation but simply have a portable ELT in the glovebox.

I have my own ELT with GPS and hitch that on my belt when I go cross country. That way if the aircraft burns or ditches and I get out I still have an ELT to use. The negative is that I have to be physically able to operate the unit. Then again if the aircraft is so badly busted up that I am unable to physically turn the unit on then one has to ask the question, what shape is the aircraft and a fixed installation in?

I am still happy to have my own GPS ELT on my person and therefore have some measure of control over the availability and serviceability of a vital bit of flight kit.

R16.

Bing Gordon
31st May 2012, 22:31
I see once again no actual facts were harmed in the making of this discussion......

Frank Arouet
31st May 2012, 23:41
Bloke named Miller ditched into The Gulf of Carpentaria one night and while his fixed ELT was transmitting nowhere due to being inverted in the mud, he and his mate trod water all night after activating his hand held. The first rays of daylight had a Huey overhead and picked them up. I'm sure they had some concerns about big "bities" that swim around up there, but it all turned out well and helped clinch the AOPA deal.

LeadSled
1st Jun 2012, 01:04
The subject of ELTs is an ongoing debate.

Runway16,
Is it, really, where ?? --- while I have not kept up with developments in the US, the last time I looked, the FAA were considering a change to allow portable ELT as a substitute for fixed ELT, with the move to 406 units, in part because of the Australian research, and the results of a research effort by the US Civil Air patrol, CAP --- and the cost of fixed 406 ELT.

After all, the original FAA rules did no come about as a result of the usual FAA painstaking processes, including a comprehensive cost/benefit analysis, but were imposed by Congress/Senate as a knee jerk reaction to the loss of a well known politician in Alaska.

The reason why fixed ELT are so ineffective is pretty straight forward, and no "redesign" will every overcome the problems.
For the system to work, each of the unit, the aerial cable and aerial must be intact and workable, and the aerial must be in a position to send a signal.

As Frank has pointed out, 100% of fixed ELT will not broadcast under water, and last time I looked at the long term statistics, something like (still) 35% of survivable accidents were aircraft into water.

The "injury" profile in light aircraft accidents is clear (and totally unlike motor vehicle accidents) with either light injuries, or everybody is dead.

The first case is where a portable can probably be activated, the second is where it will not only be dead occupants, but a dead ELT, because the aerial cable or aerial will not survive, even if the box does.

The facts on fixed ELT are clear, they are a waste of money, air safety would be better served spending the safety dollar where it has some chance of making a difference. All the years I worked for airlines, not one of our aircraft ever had a fixed ELT, but multiple portables.

Certainly, AOPA Australia headed the push, in the mid 1990's, against mandating fixed ELT, because of the facts, just the facts ---- don't quote me on the exact figures now, but the cost to GA was going to be about $16-22,000,000 in 1994 dollars, for a system that was unlikely to save a single life.

Even the argument about saving search costs, not even lives, did not hold water, given the proven failure rates.

The so called cost/benefit carried out by CAA was laughably inept, no wonder they wanted the data kept confidential. CAA claimed the data had to be kept confidential to prevent further stress and suffering of relatives.

No problem, AOPA just approached BASI, who made the data available.

No wonder CAA wanted confidentiality --- when AOPA examined each and every accident that CAA claimed (about 18) would have a better outcome, if a fixed ELT was available, four of the example aircraft turned out to be boats. The CAA figure for water -- 100% failure, was given as 3.5%, they were never good at simple arithmetic ( shades of the first ADS-B CBA) the decimal point had slipped, the real figure was 35% or so. In the end, there were just a handful of accidents worth debating, all very doubtful, and way short of satisfying a CBA for mandating fixed ELT.

One accident always springs to mind --- CAA claimed that finding an aircraft that had forced landed in main street of Euroa, Victoria, would have been found more easily if it had had an ELT ---- despite the fact it was almost in front of the police station.

Mind you, given the proven ineptitude of the long since disbanded AsA (as it became) Search and Rescue mob, maybe they were right. Thank goodness the AMSA setup is light-years ahead of those days.

Australia also played a pivotal, indeed critical, role in having the 406 standards changed to allow the design and manufacture of affordable portable fixed ELT, those new international standards have revolutionized the use of 406 portable ELT (far more so than 121.5/243 beacons), with application far beyond aviation, even though aviation was the driver in Australia.

As I have already posted, the CASA post implementation review confirmed the correctness of the current regulations ----- so, I ask again, where is the jury out.

Don't quote what is, in fact, US regulatory inertia (related to PLBs generally, not just aviation) generally, as an argument in favour of fixed ELT.

Tootle pip!!

Oktas8
1st Jun 2012, 09:16
I wondered what the history of the "ELT not required" legislation was.

Now I know.

Hooda thort PPRuNe would actually educate? Thanks for sharing LS.

Frank Arouet
1st Jun 2012, 11:26
I wondered what the history of the "ELT not required" legislation was.

Now I know.

I'm not sure you do. Actually you do need a ELT/EPIRB/PLB depending on circumstances. The thing is a lot of work was put in to garner the best option.

Oktas8
1st Jun 2012, 23:38
What was that about Frank? Did I say that no aircraft need an ELT? Of course some do. It's there in black and white.

Perhaps you would have preferred that I quote the entire rule, with the entire exemption list, before daring to thank LS for his helpful comments. You know, to prove that I'm not a complete idiot, because clearly you think I must be. Being an ATPL holder and unaware of ELT legislation.

The thing is a lot of work was put in to garner the best option.

Thanks so much for that patronising insight. I would never have got that from the previous posts. Doesn't complicated legislation just mysteriously happen all by itself?

But this is so off topic. RIP to the poor deceased man.