Monarch Anyone?

[Pilot RatBoy]

I got a phone call from the recruitment team, literally giving me 3 dates to chose from. All 3 in the week commencing 9th July. I am rated on the 320 with well over 1000 hours on type.

[MrHorgy]

Congratulations, I hope the interview is pretty straightforward.. Here's hoping they look at us non rated guys too!

[Pilot RatBoy]

Fingers crossed for you guys, they did say they wanted a mix.

[spottyemm]

A non type rated friend of mine has an interview next week. He is available at short notice so would be able to make a September course so I'm not sure if that had any significance. Running a course a month for 9 months so hope for a lot of you guys and gals yet. Good luck all, I look forward to sharing a 'Welcome to Monarch' beer with you all.

[SD.]

Silly question but I had a couple of missed calls today from "unknown" number with no message left. To anyone that received a call from MON, was it a "blocked" or "unknown" number? :ok:

Ta

It was probably a PPI claim company :ugh:

[Pilot RatBoy]

My call was from an 0871 number, likewise I thought it was a spam call!!

[FlyingTinCans]

I put in an application when it first opened and was a postal, paper form.

Is it now null and void now they want an electronic one?

:confused:

[First.officer]

Hi FlyingTinCans,

From what I have gleaned, the paper format application is redundant, and only on-line applications are being considered - originally I was told to monitor the recruitment portal for interview dates and Application Status - does anyone know if this is updated on receipt of a phone call, or is it possibly updated without receiving a call ??

[FlyingTinCans]

Thought that might be the case.

And now the recruitment portal doesnt have flight deck vacancies listed anymore.

Typical......

[First.officer]

Understand your frustration FlyinTinCans, although my understanding is that the portal will re-open at some point very soon, so hopefully you and others will get the chance to apply.....

[tubby linton]

The Monarch switchboard number is 0871 2250250. This number will appear on your phone whenever anybody within the Luton office calls you. Good luck to you all.

[MaxPower2011]

I know for a fact that a few of the places on Septembers course went to guys who had applied direct with their CV's before the online application opened. The online application process is part of a new system being operated for the first time this year, however I would be very surprised if the paper applications weren't been considered.

My advice, be patient.

[1000ft Cruiser]

Just got a phone call from an 'unknown number' having read this thread last night... crew control. Didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

[go around flaps15]

Is there anyone else having trouble logging in to check the status of their application?

[Superpilot]

Yeah, me too.

With half the country's pilots logging in to check, I'm not surprised!

[Flying Wild]

Can't even log in. Am experiencing an unexpected error...

[Direct DIKRO]

I haven't been able to get in either.

Maybe they're filtering through all the applications?

[PaulW]

You may have logged in, but are getting the error for whatever reason. I had the same. If you click on manage my profile, it takes you to a page to fill in your details and you can upload a resume from there. It's just the home page doesn't seem to work.

[irishpilot1990]

any email address available for HR?would like to follow up a previous postal application.:ok:

[1000ft Cruiser]

Received an email earlier this afternoon basically saying we're flooded with applicants so it's taking a while, please be patient.

[ISR]

Same here.

[go around flaps15]

Yep me too.

[Fiesler02]

Anyone knows how many pilots are they looking for with this recruitment turn?

I know it's a very good company to work for but would it be possible to have a general idea of how long does it take to jump in the left seat....I am not in a rush....I am just curious:)

[Dream Driver]

Same here, anyone kind to share what is the roster like and if it is eventually possible to commute?
Many thanks

[alpha.charlie]

The guys who have just done their command courses joined the company about 7/8 years ago, this should hopefully go down a little bit with expansion.

Notice from Ops director recently stated 90 new FO's within a year.

Roster is all random regardless of seniority but with a good scheduling agreement including VIP days (chose your days off, certain number of these a year - can't remember how many though) and ring-fencing of duties (4 a month).

[Fiesler02]

alpha.charlie,
thanks for the good infos

[SEAMASTER]

Hi G-LEX try to ring someone with authority on the matter at monarch HQ and ask the question, nothing lost !!

[Flying Wild]

Being in the forces you must have heard of the 7 P's...

[MrHorgy]

The recruitment will open again when they have cleared the backlog of existing applications.

Call the HQ, the HR ladies whilst no doubt snowed under, are very nice and will no doubt tell you more than I could!

[Wellington Bomber]

How can they ask for 20 tonnes plus experience and then recruit direct from CTC, I think there is a case for discrimination me thinks

[The African Dude]

Wellington, there is a difference between discrimination and selection! Discrimination would be selection on the basis of something people cannot choose.

I wouldn't ring your lawyer just yet :8

[fmgc]

How can they ask for 20 tonnes plus experience and then recruit direct from CTC, I think there is a case for discrimination me thinks

How so?

Racism? Ageism? Sexism?

[SmilingKnifed]

Competence?

[stewiegriffin]

anyone actually heard anything yet? be it good or bad news....

[Wellington Bomber]

Tell me what is different in flying 20, 30 , 10 tonne plane please

All could have the same avionics, fair enough some taxi ways are smaller than others, all go 250 kts below 10000ft, the radio calls are the same so apart from some go higher and get an inflight meal, all work in busy mixed airspace with helicopters, what is the difference apart from mine is bigger than yours childishness.

Please tell me, i am all ears

[HPbleed]

They just want a broad spectrum of experience. It's no different to a building company taking on apprentices and guys with 25 years experience to keep the levels correct.

So they take cadets and people with jet commercial experience, I don't see the problem.

[Wellington Bomber]

But they take turboprops over 20 tonnes i,e Dash 8-300 &400, SAAB 2000 & ATP for frigs sake

SO that argument about jet goes out the window

Speed goes out of the window as well because the J41 and D328 go faster than the Dash 300 and ATP and you can argue that certain types can go 250knts to about 9 mile final where as jets cant.

Next argument

[horsebox]

Wellington, I think its just a "line in the sand", arbitary, made up number as a way of sifting applications or cv's.

Jetstream has the word Jet in the aircraft name, therefore perfectly reasonable to count it as Jet time??!

[1000ft Cruiser]

Have a friend who's just got the job. Starts in October, guy in his 20s with about 2500 turboprop hours, all RHS.

[Flying Wild]

Have heard today that the FO vacancy will not be loaded back up onto the recruitment system due to the overwhelming interest in the initial stage. An official message should appear soon.
They are looking to find 120 FOs in this current cycle. If they can't find enough, then they'll open it back up again.

[bucket_and_spade]

Wow. 120 is massive. Can anyone put this expansion in to context i.e. current versus anticipated airframes?

[mudcity]

Plan is for several new and some older a320+a321 to join the fleet for Summer 13.
speaking to the recruitment team at HQ the interest has been huge and the first type rated course has been filled, will be one course a month commencing sept, with the intention that the recruits will be a mixture of type rated / non type rated -with previous airline / military background and some CTC cadets
( including first MPL cadets )
the online process will stay closed until the initial batch of applications has been processed.
Interview is with two management pilots.....
hope that helps someone

[Boing7117]

120 FO positions is a staggering number.

A very encouraging sign of an upturn in the industry hopefully.

Where does this number of 120 come from? An official source or educated speculation?

[mudcity]

number quoted to me today was 95…still a significant number

[1000ft Cruiser]

My friend got MAN. No idea what he requested.

[Flying Wild]

120 FO positions is a staggering number.

A very encouraging sign of an upturn in the industry hopefully.

Where does this number of 120 come from? An official source or educated speculation?

Official source.

[walterthesofty]

Quite amazing figures given the airlines current financial predicament.

[Jaydubya]

I have a UK CAA ATPL and a JAA ATPL but what is a EASA ATPL that Monarch are asking for?
I,ve been away awhile.

[Blighty Pilot]

EASA is the new licensing Authority for Europe (Previously JAA). Your EASA license will be issued in due course.

I'm not sure that being away for a while, unless at her Majesties pleasure, is an excuse not to be up to speed with relevant licensing information. If you have been at her Majesties pleasure then don't even waste your time in applying!

[BlackandBrown]

Careful Walter, monarchs grateful old pilots are looking to polarise the views on here.

[Jaydubya]

Blighty,
Thanks for reply, no I have not been away at Her Maj's pleasure, just working outside aviation since my last airline when bust!:{

[RHINO]

it would appear that the largest group of applicants are EASY pilots:ok:

[walterthesofty]

Lets just pray those in command know exactly what their doing ,However as someone who witnessed just how close to disaster the previous regime was allowed to sail the ship i am yet to be convinced the current encumbents are a whole lot better , Time will tell. Best of luck to all

[RHINO]

Walter, you old softy.....thank you

World (http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/megayachts/world%E2%80%99s-100-largest-yachts-2006-73-lady-marina)

[go around flaps15]

No PFOs gone out yet at all?

[BlackandBrown]

I know quite a few easy flexi FOs have been offered a job with Monarch to start in September/ October.

[Landflap]

Walter, what financial predicament? Excuse the naivity, admittedly short of specific knowledge here. But, closing off a 40 year career soon, I did observe the demise of British Eagle, Caledonian, BUA, Invicta, Channel, Lloyd, Transglobe,Laker, Air Europe, Dan.............blimey, was even there in some cases but Monarch out survived all of them. Biggest career bad decision was to have turned them down .........way back.........for the B720 ! Gees, just could not take Luton Airport. Opted for classy Airwick Gatport & it has all been downhill for three decades. Monarch, whenever coming close to running out of money, seemed to get it from some Swiss Gnome, overnight ! What's goin on !!

My advice, get into Monarch & stay with it. One of Aviation's greats. Good luck chaps.

[greywind]

I shall ask then as I can't guess it out

No PFOs gone out yet at all?

PFOs????

[1000ft Cruiser]

It stands for "Polite Go Aways"

[walterthesofty]

What financial predicament??... if it was not for the fact the owners pumped millions in some months ago the airline would have gone under.

I believe that they stated this was the final bail out, if losses are not stemmed within the next year or so then its all over.

Lets just hope the new team can put right the horrendous mess PB and his cronies got the company into

[First.officer]

Just wondering......of the guys and gals thus far that have been interviewed and offered positions, does anyone know what their relevant backgrounds are from an experience point of view ?? i.e. were they Airbus rated, 2000hrs + guys and gals, or have some lower experienced bods got through the doors ?

[greywind]

As far as I know some people sent in CVs before the online application started being used and they are the only people I know who've been offered interviews or jobs. Those who emailed CVs after the online system went live were pointed towards that and I don't know of anyone who filled in the online application who has even been contacted yet.

[First.officer]

Ah, okay.....submitted a paper application back in March, and was told by 'e' mail on the day of opening to re-submit my application via the portal if still interested......to be fair, i only have light biz-jet experience so guessing i might not be at the top of the list lol ! ;)

[Rocket Ron]

It's a pity EZY are losing some excellent F/Os to Monarch, all because we can't be bothered to offer them proper contracts.

Shame on us. :(

[HPbleed]

Can't be bothered? I know that's tongue in cheek but you know the real reason - Management Bonuses for keeping costs down. Sadly it's not going to get any better in Orange Land.

[Burpbot]

Well let's hope what goes around comes around!!!

Good karma to mon ;)

[tissue]

Hi, I'd be really grateful if anyone could shed some detailed light on what the interview process is like? What sort of questions etc. are asked?

Thanks

[BlackandBrown]

Monarch | It's Time To Get Your Suitcase Out (http://campaigns.monarch.co.uk/suitcase-teaser/)

[Artie Fufkin]

He has a point. If they're planning a return to profit with that...

[New T2 Office]

Brown and Black, i thought you said you weren't returning to this thread in one of your earlier posts!!! :*

Dont worry about the ad, I am reliably informed this is termed a 'teaser' out there in Media world (nope I dont really understand it either!!), the full ad appears on TV next week

Now back to the 'recruitment' topic I think.......................

[MaxPower2011]

Yep back to recruitment.......

So.... EasyJet is now a feeder airline for Monarch

[BlackandBrown]

It is, very much so at the moment, what's your point?

What you need to ask yourself is would you have REALLY left easy specifically for Monarch had you had a permanent contract? Would you advise someone in that position to do so?

[OutsideCAS]

The point is immaterial B&B - permanent contracts are not being offered, and so EZY will lose as a result. If they wish to retain the services of flexi-crew, they will have to adapt, just like we have all had to adapt to the follies of RYR and EZY and their woefully inadequate cadet schemes in the past. What goes around eventually come around.

[CaptainProp]

Yea but BALPA is "keeping the powder dry for the real fights ahead..." :eek:

This is something we've heard for the past 5-7 years.....

[BlackandBrown]

The point is immaterial B&B - permanent contracts are not being offered, and so EZY will lose as a result.

There have been hundreds offered to anyone willing to go to mainland Europe - you're either not in Easy and believing the crap on pprune or you're just being dishonest. As a fact, 100% of the people I know that are going to Monarch snubbed a mainland European contract with easyJet because they wanted to be INSTANTLY gratified in terms of being in the UK and are inflexible. Believe me, many have made the concious decision and irrational gamble to stay on flexicrew. It's been their choice.

[OutsideCAS]

EZY need to adapt then if they wish not to lose employees to Monarch. If someone decides not to stay at EZY, and go to Monarch because they can be based in the UK, on an arguably better contract, then why not ? everyone has there own desires and i would certainly advise someone, especially flexi-crew, who wish to better their situation AND remain in the UK to move over.

[BlackandBrown]

Why would easy worry about 'losing' these people?

[OutsideCAS]

Because it means they will have to recruit more (flexi ?) crew, which will mean additional cost, reduction in crewing flexibility in relation to line training new crew, loss of experience levels to bridge the gap when considering suitable candidates for upgrade etc. - list could go on am sure.

Why not offer decent terms and conditions from the start ? retain employee loyalty, save some costs long-term, have crew that can see a career progression path, a happy workforce will reap far better rewards in the bigger picture than the short-sighted vision EZY and others seem to nurture. You tend not to hear huge amounts ordinarily about Monarch because in the main i have a very strong suspicion the crews are very happy and motivated.

[BlackandBrown]

I think you need to stop confusing what you want and a company needs. Your view on things is based on envy and incorrect information. No one from CTC flying for easy is paying to fly. They paid or their fATPL as i am sure you did, some have contributed/ bonded towards their TR as that was the offer but all have been paid for every hour that they have flown an easyJet Airbus.

If you won't go abroad then accept your lot. It's not easyJets fault that the UK market is crap - its the Labour parties, BALPAs and Ryanairs.

[MaxPower2011]

B&B,

I can honestly say that I would advise permanent easy guys to move to Monarch and I did in fact leave a permanent continental contract to move.

There are reasons to be argued all day as to the merits of both companies and I am sure that easy suits some perfectly. Personally, the take take attitude, and low morale at easy wore me down. Monarch is far more humane. On the whole decisions are made based on what it right or wrong rather than what is legal.

To sum it up briefly, Monarch is a much happier place to be. 99% of people would go out of their way to do a favour for the company because they want it to succeed. Can you honestly say that about easy?

I'm sure the job security argument will be thrown back and easy's record breaking profits championed, but I have not regretted my decision for a second, for me it was well worth the risk and I would wholeheartedly encourage anyone who asked me to make the move.

[antonov09]

You are full of :mad:. It is Easyjets fault as much as anyone else for this sorry mess. The Easyjet route is a CTC integrated course at a cost of £73425.07 plus another 9 or 10 grand for an an Airbus type rating. And that is the only route into Easyjet as a cadet. You then in Easyjet get paid 1200 quid per month for the first "6 to 8 months" and then go on a crap Flexicrew contract.

Any FR or EZY pilot applying to MON is trying getting out of the low cost crap.

And believe me it is crap because I have been there. And guess what?

I got out.

Best thing I ever did.

Stop talking :mad:
Please.

[spider_man]

another 9 or 10 grand for an an Airbus type rating. And that is the only route into Easyjet as a cadet. You then in Easyjet get paid 1200 quid per month for the first "6 to 8 months"

Terrible. No wonder the EZJ share price is sky high! Out of interest, what terms do the direct entry CTC cadets join Monarch on? Surely not the same...

[Dried ears]

Oh man, Mr Arachnid, why is there no like button on this forum? :ok:

[OutsideCAS]

No one from CTC flying for easy is paying to fly

Really ? I beg to differ. It's this very reason that the rot has set in. I admit that the current marketplace does seem to demand that for anyone now wishing to move onwards and upwards at any meaningful rate, this is one of a handful of options open to new cadets, but I cannot agree with the principle of it. It's part of the very reason that companies like EZY and RYR have succeeded with their respective low cost models. These new pilots are effectively subsidising the passengers' ticket costs. It's akin to booking a taxi from the pub to your home, paying the fare cost, and then driving yourself home - you wouldn't accept it, you wouldn't do it. It's just cashing in on a desire to fly. It ruins the marketplace for all pilots ultimately, and anyone who has attempted to build their career by following tried and tested routes, working their way up as air taxi, instructor, turboprop etc. will be cuurently at a disadvantage as the skills and experience they have built up is seemingly worth bugger all to most operators these days.

In summary, I wholeheartedly stand behind any flexi-crew moving to Monarch and would support it as by moving to such an operator, they are at least in some way undoing a little of the damage of SSTR by abandoning such poor employers that cash in on newbies, and if enough migrate, CTC/EZY, RYR et all will have to adapt, or else lose the ability to successfully crew their respective aircraft. And this will lose revenue in the end, maybe not today, but it will tomorrow. Monarch are one of the very few employers, in my opinion, that seem to have grasped the fact that by using proper Terms/Conditions, the employee is valued, and trust me, if you have happy employees, subject to unforseen issues, invariably you will have a company with a good reputation in their chosen marketplace, and they should suceed and have sustainability. Bravo Monarch, finally an employer with balls.

[BlackandBrown]

1. Monarch have it agreed that 20% of the FOs at any time are on 85% contracts through the union.

2. As spider man said, all cadets join Monarch on exactly the same Ts and Cs.

3. If you didn't like the Easy scheme and felt it was immoral, why did you do it?

4. Your analogy making out that we subsidise the passengers tickets is crap. It infers that if one thing happens, another will because YOU say it will. Your opinion isn't evidence.

[spider_man]

In summary, I wholeheartedly stand behind any flexi-crew moving to Monarch and would support it as by moving to such an operator, they are at least in some way undoing a little of the damage of SSTR

No, it encourages more SSTR cadets to follow such a path. Every CTC cadet knows the easyjet deal is terrible... They only accept from the outset in the knowledge that another operator (BA, MON, middle east) offering real employment terms will take them on very soon after EZY (whilst damaging other operators trying to compete). Not one cadet has the intention of staying at EZY.

Every cadet poached is simply replaced by another SSTR cadet at an increasing rate. The ctc susage factory can produce far more cadets than other airlines can poach. Stop taking these guys and let them fester in land of orange... The only way to stop SSTR racket is to break the career chain and stop recruiting and encouraing them! Harsh but true.

Yes, with loan interest, etc. the total financial burden for the cadets is circ £120k with course & license fees, living costs, TR, etc etc. Goodluck getting a mortgage with that level of personal debt.

[Jet A1]

Cadets know the score when they sign up. I'm fed up flying with guys moaning telling me I don't know what it is like.

I do...I had to scrape around on jack all money barely paying the interest on loans, living off credit cards, but guess what...I knew I'd be skint from the outset, accepted it, kept my head down and got on with it.

Aviation owes nobody a favour.

The comment that not one cadet would stay at easyJet maybe true but I would say any cadet who is sat waiting in the CTC pool for a placement would sell their granny to get in the RHS at easyJet and there lies the problem.

[MaxPower2011]

Cadets generally know they are in for a bit of a shafting when they sign up and its a means to an end to getting the job they really want. The level and type of shafting, however is a bit of an unknown.

1. Monarch have it agreed that 20% of the FOs at any time are on 85% contracts through the union.

Not so at the moment, every single F/O who wants to be full time is full time, every new recruit will be full time from the off. I'm sure the agreement is still valid, there is a financial incentive to be on the Part year work and you are guaranteed a salary every month. I actually enjoyed being paid to go travelling for a couple of months and would probably do it again voluntarily in the future

2. As spider man said, all cadets join Monarch on exactly the same Ts and Cs.

Except they don't pay for their type rating and uniform, are covered by the same scheduling agreement as everyone else and are employed on a permanent contract in the UK at the end of their first 6 months.

[antonov09]

Precisely. Night and day compared to FR or EZY.

[spottyemm]

This whole thread is getting tedious! If you want to discuss the merits of CTC and Flexicrew then surely a Monarch recruiting thread is not the place to do it.

For info I understand that places to non type rated pilots including some ex military have been offered on a course starting in October. Another rumour doing the rounds internally is that we will not be reopening the recruitment portal soon as we have over 1000 suitable applicants already. That said it may well be that more recruitment will be needed next year. A MAJOR plus in getting an interview is a recommendation from someone in the company.

The interviews are still very old school and consist of a 'chat' with a couple of management pilots.

As has been said above as of this November there will not a single FO at Monarch on a part time contract who has not volunteered to do so.

There is still no announcement about the future of the A330 fleet but this must be imminent, the possibility of requiring a 2 year amortisation period following A330 conversion has been mooted and is causing some consternation among senior FOs.

As for the Easy vs Monarch debate it's horses for courses. Some years ago we lost guys to Easy as they were looking for regional uk/European bases and a fixed roster. Now guys are coming to us as we have permanent contracts, some long haul etc.

I have no experience of Easy and unlike B&B will not demean myself by slagging other people off. What I can say is that on the whole Monarch is a friendly, inclusive place to work. Crewing, despite being under great pressure recently, remain friendly and accommodating wherever possible. A hard wotking BALPA Cc supported by very high membership levels have secured us T&Cs that are amongst the best in the country Pilot management are approachable and most importantly I enjoy going to work with a great bunch of lads and lasses.

It's not always a bed of roses but I'm certainly happy where I am.

Congrats to all those who have been offered a course date and good luck to those being interviewed, I look forward to sharing a beer with you some time. To those who have not been offered an interview, if you know someone in the company who may be willing to give you a reference then I would suggest giving them a bell and offering to buy them a drink or two.

[Serenity]

I'm not applying to easyjet!!

Could anyone possibly enlighten me as to what one could expect in the interview at monarch.

Many thanks

Feel free to pm.

[JliderPilot]

Spottyemm,

Excellent post there me old. I am glad this thread is getting back on track at last. As an ex mil type, all I have heard from inside Monarch are positive messages. Cannot comment on easy or ryanair but I am hopeful as airline recruitment starts again, we shall see the end of these crappy contracts that everyone mentions. Maybe it is time for the pilots to get the pay they deserve.:ok:

[Iver]

What is the status of long haul flying at Monarch? I know Monarch operate older A300-600Rs and several A330s.

Does Monarch still plan to add long haul aircraft (i.e., 787s now cancelled) or have those long haul plans been shelved? The older A300s will probably leave in the next few years. Will Monarch retain long haul flying in the mix or will it focus more on Euro-centric LCC flying?

Also, for a recent newhire on the A320/21, how long before you could get qualified on the A330 and start flying some long haul flights (assuming they remain)? 3-4 years?

[RHINO]

If people are thinking of coming to Monarch they need to think short haul.....

[mesh]

Monarch are going Sh, the 330's are on their way out. We get rid of our first A300 in October and the rest of the 'LH' aircraft will be gone over the next couple of years. Order of probably A320 family to be announced soon, possibly at Farnborough. First TV advert aired today, 2 new bases, 90+ FOs, 40 commands, Monarch is on the way up again. We have top 5 T and C's, good bunch of guys on the whole, friendly environment to work in. It's been mentioned that we have lost some FO's recently, we have. Some of those gone would now be sat in the left hand seat. They have made the choice due to a number of reasons but hating it at Monarch is not one of them. The big choice to be made coming to Monarch or staying at Monarch is whether you will be happy doing 5 on 2 off to Spain for the rest of your career. The next choice to be made is when you are 50 do you want to be worrying about Monarch not being around any more. Some of our guys have just gone through this and it has prompted some guys to go to more 'stable' airlines, but lets face it you could find yourself in this position at 90% of airlines. Don't come here thinking you will be flying the 330 in a few years even if it does stay currently it stands at 6 years to get on it. If these two factors don't concern you the come on in, we enjoy our time here and the laws of probability say that when I retire Monarch will still be here.

[P-T]

having read the previous threads with interest, I'd just like to add my 2p worth.

I've recently joined monarch (Feb of this year) from another UK Charter Airline and all I have to say about them is positive.

Everything from the initial interview to working on the line is nothing but an enjoyable experience. The Management have been frank and open, the Training Department friendly and very helpful and the staff as a whole are great. There have been opportunities to move base temporarily and having initially been taken on with a 9-3 contract, all of us who joined this year have been offered the full 12 month contract.

It's a good company to work for and yes, it has it's issues with stability or job security, but show me any UK airline (other than BA) that hasn't. Overall I'm flying less and getting paid more than before, so surely thats a good thing!

[Jumbo2]

Did some already got an invitation or a rejection email following their online application or are all the invitations/rejections being send out at the moment pre online application form? This just to get an idea how far the recruitment team is.

[Direct DIKRO]

I've not heard anything regarding the result of my application, it's still showing as an active application on their e-site.:{

The last correspondence received, almost a fortnight ago, was from the recruitment team apologising for the delay as they've understandably been inundated with applications.

[Dried ears]

I've not flown an aircraft bigger than 14 tonnes, currently flying six tonnes. Obviously I'm not worthy of Monarch damn it! Tears welling up and applies to the middle east universe like all the other misfits.

[Craggenmore]

The big choice to be made coming to Monarch or staying at Monarch is whether you will be happy doing 5 on 2 off to Spain for the rest of your career.

Is that a wind-up mesh..? That's only 8 days off a month..!

[tom775257]

10 days off per month, 9 day off in peak 3 months. Day off is 2100L --> 0900 enclosing two local nights (or less than 2000 --> 0800L)

Obviously often days where you aren't working can't comply with the above so these will be 'rest days.' So you will get these days off min and also generally a number of rest days.

[go around flaps15]

Any non type rated guys/gals getting a call? And if so what kind of experience?

[PAPI-74]

Where are the 75's based?

[mesh]

Not a wind up, roughly speaking this is what you will be doing. Our 320 guys do max hours, slightly quiter in winter. As stated we currently have 9 days off in summer...

757's are on their way out over next couple of years. At the moment we have one working summer out of Edn and the other few work mainly from Man/Lgw

[BaconRash]

Be a real shme if you loose the 757s and 330s...got a few mates on these fleets...they love it. Short haul good to be in your own bed at night but not much else.

[Skyward85]

Does anyone have information on the interview?

[stewiegriffin]

I take it some interviews have been conducted this week, how'd they go? what were they like? & has anyone heard anything yet? I got my app in 2 days after it opened and am yet to hear anything!

[HPbleed]

The interview is a management chat, trying to suss out if they can sit next to you for 12 hours. A couple of HR questions (give us a time when you have shown leadership, a time when you have dealt with an emergency situation etc) and a couple of tech questions - a couple of acronyms, what they mean etc and also detailed questions on one area (hydraulics in my case). Then a Q&A time and a bit about the job, where you can expect to be based etc. Overall straight forward and no messing unlike the BA interview process.

[wannaf1y]

I have just under 2000 hrs total.... had an interview about 2 weeks ago, heard the next day I had the job....... At the minute gainfully employed on the Avrorj... My start date end of Oct... A320/21

[stewiegriffin]

cool thanks for that. When did you guys get your apps in?

[greywind]

I put an online application in about a month ago and heard very little. Chased up via email and been told to be patient as they have a lot of applications to work through.

Two guys I know, same airline and base as me at the moment have interviewed and been offered jobs but apparently they had their CVs passed in and didn't do the online application.

Doesn't look hopeful when people are getting job offers and some haven't heard anything. Has anyone who applied online heard anything yet? Yes or no?

[tchaikovsky]

Greywind et al,

Don't read too much into people getting offers. It's the way things are done in mon, jobs offered as they go on with the interviews (bit strange, but they are quite set in their ways).

If you meet the minimum requirements I.e. type rated/good T.P. time
then you have a good chance of getting an interview.

Best of luck.

[Iver]

Mesh and Rhino,

You have said the longhaul fleet is being replaced and that shorthaul will be the focus going forward. And yet Monarch signed an agreement for 2 A330s with Guggenheim Aviation partners yesterday. Will these A330s be used on short-haul sectors or will they continue to be used on longhaul? Very confusing... Are these A330s used to cover existing contracts for a limited time? Any thoughts?

See article about the A330s below:


Guggenheim Aviation Partners Leases Two Aircraft to Monarch Airlines


Press Release: Guggenheim Partners, LLC – 23 hours ago

LONDON, July 12, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Guggenheim Aviation Partners Limited (GAP), an affiliate of Guggenheim Partners, LLC, today announced the lease of two Airbus A330-200 aircrafts to Monarch Airlines, one of the United Kingdom's largest privately-owned airlines. The leases were concluded last quarter.

"We are extremely delighted to continue our longstanding relationship with Monarch Airlines," said Paul Newrick, GAP's President and Managing Director. "These two Rolls Royce-powered Airbus A330-200 planes are valuable additions to our growing portfolio due to their proven reliability and ever increasing customer base."

Monarch Chairman Iain Rawlinson commented: "The Airbus A330-200 is at the heart of Monarch's long-haul fleet and we are pleased to enter into these long-term leases with Guggenheim Aviation evidencing its confidence in and future commitment to Monarch Airlines."

Monarch Airlines operates a fleet of 32 aircrafts from bases in the UK throughout Europe, North America, Asia and Africa.

[mesh]

These are our aircraft, not 2 new. Some will say it's an intention to keep LH and the truth is nobody knows yet. However, the company has stated many times their intention to become sh only. In the short term we need to keep these to maintain mod, hajj etc capability, but I believe over next few years these will disappear...

[Direct DIKRO]

Tchaikovsky,

Are you saying if you're not type rated they're looking at TP guys and gals next?

[TartinTon]

The problem is that the company's in-house tour operator Cosmos seems incapable of competing on the longhaul stage. There is a real opportunity to carve out a significant niche in Goa and Florida but a seeming lack of vision/aspiration/balls in the senior management at Cosmos appears to be holding the company back. The tour operator is in danger of shrinking out of existence as it's only growth source is the airlines scheduled division and at some stage the question will be asked why bother with your own tour operator when there are so many better placed consolidators/OTAs out there?

[Iver]

Agreed TartinTon. Mate of mine flew on a Monarch A330 to Sanford a few months back. Aircraft, not surprisingly, was packed to the gills. :D

You would think that Monarch could (if it hasn't already) establish solid, perhaps year-round, business to Sanford, Cancun and Antigua/Barbados using A330s. Probably fill most of those flights - especially the Orlando/Sanford flights. And that excludes popular Goa and Phuket service that could be flown seasonally. So, one would think Monarch probably could support more than 2 A330s on the Atlantic flying once the A300-600Rs are gone - right? Are these routes not profitable for Monarch? Is the intent to eventually drop all longhaul flying? I realise the Florida/Cancun flying is lower margin, but it is pretty stable and consistent in terms of customer year round I would think.

With intense intra-European competition from Easy, Ryanair, Wizz, Vueling, Flybe (E190s), Transavia, Air Berlin, Norwegian (100 737NGs + 100 Neos) and others, I would expect the shorthaul flying to be equal in terms of low margin flying with hyper-competitive pricing (especially to the leisure destinations). Shorthaul flying in Europe could get very ugly quickly in a depressed economy. All of the flying, longhaul and shorthaul, is impacted by economic cycles. So, why give up the consistent and stable Florida/Caribbean flying? Why not stay diversified in terms of types of flying? Why put all of your eggs in the shorthaul basket with so much intra-European competition? Just curious... :confused: Obviously the answers to these questions are probably found with people at far-higher pay grades than mine.. :}:confused::cool:

[mesh]

Straight from the top, we have been inundated with guys and girls with to quote 'commercial jet' experience. These will form the major part of the initial interviews. Monarch have and will continue to interview some TP and Military guys to add an extra dimension. I would think the first few courses starting September would be made up of mostly of type rated guys. Further courses consisting of 'other' qualified individuals.

As far as the A330 is concerned the MD has in the past stated you need at least 6 hulls to run any efficient LH program and that's where the problem lies. Monarch have so far failed to find the remaining hulls due to a number of factors, too expensive, wrong configuration etc etc. There are a lot of routes out there that could be good for us but the simple answer is we need to decide whether to invest in the extra hulls. So far and I mean a lot longer than I have been at Monarch this decision has not been made. We have used the A330 and the A300 to pick up a lot of ad hoc work. We are currently bidding to use them on the same sort of work. In all announcements from the management they have stated we are going SH schedule. However with a caveat that we will continue to keep LH in our back pocket, who knows. All I have said and will go onto say is for those joining us. Do not join thinking we will be operating a schedule LH service. As stated earlier you will be flying SH, even if we keep the A330's for the next 6-8 years. We are about to take on upwards of 100 FO's and 40 commands. This expansion is due to us increasing our SH schedule as published. Next announcement I predict will be leasing of around 6 A320 family aircraft. These will some on line next year with the new guys and will cover the new bases. Having said that I could be completely wrong and 4 lovely 330's are making their way to us :)

[LHRbound]

That doesn't sound good for me then, as if they were looking at rated guys first, I've missed the cut! I have 3200 total with over 1200 A320 (current) and 1700 B737.

I had hoped to have heard something as flying shorthall UK is my goal, but I guess its not to be at this stage, I just don't know what I am missing CV wise!

[mesh]

I wouldn't say that, I think we have only booked one course in September at the moment. These courses will be going into the new year. I know for a fact that guys in interviews next week and week after aren't all type rated. As stated earlier Monarch are not as organised as others in terms of recruitment. If they are interviewing none rated guys this week it doesn't mean they have gone through all the rated. All I meant was of the guys interviewed at the moment, those that have a rating will be on the first course, as you would expect.

Good luck and hang in there

[drag king]

Things are moving then, slowly but surely. That is very good in these grim times.

I think I stand (not even a) little chance to be part of this because I am slightly below the 2000TT mark, no-rated and no-airliners experience (even TP) under my belt but dreaming is still free of charge! :)

I have notice that the link in the email I received is not longer working, so I assume it will be kept dormant until they have gone through the 1st batch of application. However I might have to make a change regarding my availability so is there any safe way of doing it? Replying to the workflow email isn't a good idea, me think...

Best luck to those who get the call!

[Fansfail]

I'll agree with what Mesh said...

There has been a mix of experience levels that have been interviewed and offered jobs, I'm sure that mix will continue as well. However the majority will probably end up being rated guys with a sprinkling of TP/Mil on top. What the ratios end up being is anyone's guess. As far as I know the first intake in Sept is for rated guys only, the first full type rating course for non TR people being mid to late Oct. Courses will be running one a month ish into next year.

Wasn't there a Monarch holding pool in existence previously? Is there any indication that they have plucked people out of this? Presumably they have if the guys are still about...

[LHRbound]

Thanks for the reply MESH, I hope you're right as the more I hear about working for Monarch, the more I would love a shot at gaining that career!

Hope to post some good news on here soon.

[RHINO]

Tartin Tom and Iver,

none of what you have suggested has a cat in hells chance of coming to pass as it is uneconomic. Are you suggesting we take over Thomas Cook's business model for long haul operations......

There is a huge difference between crews sitting on the beach for a week thinking what a great and successful company they work for and that same company turning a profit out of a small longhaul operation. Sadly crew are the last people to appreciate the reality.....

Monarch if nothing else is going to be run for a profit otherwise (need a smiley for a coffin!). Those have been somewhat lacking of late and the new head shed have embarked on a course of action to change it.

Personally, I think they are on the right track....

Anyway back to the thread....those that have applied 'good luck' and be patient!

[Rushed Approach]

Some advice for applicants, if I may:

1) If you don't get an interview this time, but want to work for Monarch, make sure you always have an up to date CV on file, and that it's not full of typos. If it's older than a year old it is likely to be binned when we next recruit.

2) Dress smartly for the interview, i.e. suit and tie or equivalent

3) Application forms should be legible, and, again, not be full of errors. If a page says "Additional Information", don't leave it blank - this is your chance to distinguish yourself from the competition.

4) Find out about the Company and know why you want to work for us

5) Know the aircraft you fly technically - we'll be asking questions!

All basic stuff, but ignored by many candidates.

We'll be taking on a mix of pilots, some cadets, some type rated and some not type rated/ex-military as we believe this will give us a broad range of aviation and life experiences. We could easily fill all of the places with cadets, or from type rated pilots for that matter with the numbers we have applying, which is now approaching 1000.

[HPbleed]

To be honest, if you need to be told to do any of the above you perhaps shouldn't be working for Monarch...

[Direct DIKRO]

Great post Rushed Approach,

Just keeping everything crossed, all the interview prep you've mentioned has been done, just need the interview now:sad:

Any further insight into how people are being fished out, are they postal or online applicants or both?

Are there any timeframes before everyone will found out their fate?

[Rushed Approach]

For those asking about time to command, the mean average is a little over 6 years historically. This winter's commands will have about 6 years' RHS and this may increase slightly over the next couple of seasons to about 7 (depending on expansion) before dropping right down again when we encounter a three year hiatus of recruitment (08 to 11) and hence gap in the list. So 5-6 years is probably a good ball park to work on for those joining now with the obvious caveat that any plan that extends more than a couple of years into the future in the airline business is one that will be subject to change! In common with most airlines, commands are awarded on length of service then merit, and the Cadet, F/O and Captain pay scales are now based on length of service rather than time in the rank.

Monarch does not in general lose any pilots to TCX, TUI or easyJet, and never has (there has been the odd one or two in unusual circumstances). The few F/Os we do lose tend to go to BA, Virgin, Emirates for those seeking the long haul "tick" and the odd one or two to a "too good to miss" biz jet outfit. Even then, some of them regret the move it would seem!

In terms of long haul, the market is difficult at present - in a recession where do those who started to get used to long haul holidays a few years back resort to when the pay packet gets squeezed? Answer - short haul back to Spain/Turkey/Egypt and the Canaries where they used to go, with a cheaper ticket with more competition on the route and a lot less APD. We will continue to watch the LH market carefully and take advantage of any opportunities that arise. Time to multi-fleet flying (A320/321 and A330) as a new F/O? Assuming we keep the two A330s we have on their current lease, 3-4 years would be a ball park figure in my opinion. Less obviously if the market picks up and the fleet expands.

To Monarch the short haul "basket" is not high risk - where we compete with the likes of easy and Ryanair, and indeed BA, on the same routes we are generally the market leader on that route. Our passengers come back to us with a very high re-booking rate and our load factors have recently hit new highs that other airlines continue to be envious of. The business has recently undergone a complete overhaul and will continue to develop and flourish as a result.

So get your application in! :ok:

[BlackandBrown]

This is getting to be like Odysseus and the Sirens. Put wax in your ears!

[LVL_CHG]

I'd say it's nice to have some relevant information for a change.:D It beats wading through the constant nit-picking battles that swamp this forum, and indeed this thread.

[Ray Webster]

After the ash cloud episode Monarch nearly went bust. Couldn't afford the photocopier, turned off half the lights in the offices, the works.

Then a £75m bailout arrives and with it a new management. Obviously they need to show that they have a new plan. So it is that we arrive at today's expansion, new aircraft, withdrawal from long haul, new bases and a TV ad campaign of all things.

Problem is its all buzzcocks.

BMIBaby is withdrawing from exactly this market space despite benefiting from over 8 years of regional TV advertising. Nobody in the real world has ever ever heard of Monarch Airlines. You'd need a lot of answers on Family Fortunes before you got to 'Monarch'. The public would name defunct airlines first. Trying to steal Jet2's lunch at Leeds is just asking for a royal spanking. EasyJet's at Luton is risible.

It's all going to end in tears. A niche airline trying to go mainstream is a fraught adventure even in good times. During a massive recession it's kamikaze. That £75m will be burnt by Easter. I just hope there's several more where that came from or else a lot of people are going to end up in the dole.

Monarch is the Titanic. They said it couldn't sink.

[BlackandBrown]

Hit the nail on the head.

[mesh]

Utter rubbish

[OutsideCAS]

As usual, unless it's orange in colour, blackandbrown loathes it. Total drivel.

[Artie Fufkin]

I just love this concept that airlines have shadowy departments monitoring pprune, sussing out who is posting what.

One chap in my airline posted something negative about the chief pilot, who went absolutely spare and tried to work out who it was. He never did!

Besides, B&B is a troll. After posting his thoughts on the merits of joining BA, this should have been pretty obvious.

[compton3bravo]

Never seen such a load of cr?p written for a long time from Ray Webster. Where are you coming from - apart from a far flung colony!. To quote ´´nobody´s ever heard of Monarch´´. Where have you been this last 40 odd years - started before you were born my son. June load factor of 92 per cent - nobody know of Monarch Airlines then - get real.

[Fansfail]

The ash cloud had a number of airlines allegedly teetering on the brink, so they say... It's certainly been a good excuse for penny pinching at my previous employer and is still to this day! I don't think Monarch were the only airline sucker-punched by that whole debacle, especially when you see how wound up other airline executives were getting at the time...!

Monarch Airlines is also an arm off the Monarch group as a whole, the engineering side of which is a very successful business. To reposition the airline, give it a defined focus to work towards and championing that through advertising is absolutely the right thing to do during tough times, resting on its laurels and haemorrhaging more money through inefficiency is not.

Oh and that bit about no-body knowing who Monarch are... Maybe in New Zealand but in the UK? Well, thats simply not true is it...

[SEAMASTER]

We are just a little piece of the entire jigsaw, to really see who we are part of check out "globus family brands", the people who own this " world wide " venture also own us !! Happy reading !

[New T2 Office]

Dear oh Dear.

Just when we thought a degree of decorum had arrived on this thread, then up pops Gay Webster to spoil it for everyone....Schools are breaking up soon, some have already, I expect he's a little bored for the next 6 weeks or so :ugh::ugh:

Its a pity potential colleagues of ours cannot join the private Monarch thread....where at least we dont have to read the c**p that these individuals write :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[DjerbaDevil]

Monarch “refinanced” themselves in 2009 with 45 million pounds. This according to their management allowed them to be profitable in 2010 but in 2011 they made a loss of 45 million pounds again, which was covered with “refinancing” of 75 million pounds from the shareholders and the Swiss owner Sergio M.......

Well nearly, ‘cos we now find out that they sold their two Airbus 330s to a lessor and contracted to lease them back. Since the two aircraft in question are only 13 years old, the deal must have been worth many millions, so multimillionaire Swiss owner Sergio M didn’t have to dig into his pockets too deeply to “refinance” Monarch. Nevertheless important assets have now been sold and the company is worth that much less and is that much more vulnerable if the extraordinary expansion plans don’t work out in the present and near future adverse financial panorama.

Swiss owner Sergio M installed his son Fabio M at the helm of Monarch some time back and it would appear he has been totally incapable of stemming the haemorrhaging. Of course the real culprits have been the previous management teams and marketing departments but if you are losing 4 million every month, even if you have deep pockets or you didn’t have to earn the money in the first place, you take some actions to mitigate the problem, specially if you stand to lose the money yourself and your close family

Anyway no problem Fabio M has lots of money now and we know that the charter business was not profitable, so we abandon that side of the business. Long haul isn’t profitable either, as most of it is charter and Cosmos cannot sell long haul, so we pull out of that too. The great commercial plan for the future is to go loco/schedule, open new bases, with new and standard routes and do it very quickly before anyone realizes what we are doing, not even the customers! Never have done before but now we have the cash mountain, let’s advertise, as the general public won’t be able to resist us, as soon as they know what we have to offer! We have nothing different to offer from the rest but we ARE Monarch!

Quick expansion did you say? Ah well, yes we have 400+ pilots and yes they only fly 40 to 60 hours a month but we only have 32 hulls and cannot meet our commitments at the moment without incurring our passengers in long delays, even though we have the best engineering company in the UK. OK we open two new bases this year at BHX and EMA and try and poach customers from BMIbaby, with whom no one will want to fly, as they are closing down. We lease 4 hulls from other airlines to do the job until October and we get our foot in the door, expensive deal but we’ll pull thru’....hopefully. All this regardless of the fact that BMIbaby would have cleaned up the majority of would be customers for July, August and September, leaving the dregs to Monarch for the period 11 September to the end of October. If BMI baby routes were such a good bet, why didn’t Monarch buy or partially buy the company? BA would have jumped at any deal and save some jobs, probably better than the total shutdown anyway.

The best one is the proposed base at LBA but enough has been said on that one previously. Just one comment, which is that Monarch will be competing with JET2 on their home base with their leased aircraft against JET2’s wholly owned aircraft, which are fully refurbished+new seats. Any bets on the winner?

Well they have the support of two profitable travel companies namely AVRO and COSMOS, you may say. There was some years ago a reason for AVRO as a flight seat selling agent to the travel trade, when charter flights were the norm and we lived in a totally different travel business environment, but nowadays AVRO would appear to be superfluous in these low cost times. If AVRO make a profit it will be on heavily discounted Monarch tickets, which is 99% of their business. And if the AVRO ticket sales are heavily discounted that accounts for part of the Monarch losses. The same principle applies to Cosmos. If their fairly small IT programme is profitable it can only be ‘cos they get heavily discounted flight tickets from Monarch and thus contribute to Monarch’s losses. Ah yes, the Engineering Company, you may point out. OK profitable but on whose back? My bet is that Monarch would have much cheaper servicing if it was allowed to go to the open market instead of paying higher than average costs to their in house engineering company, so again another house company sucking dry the airline. Without doubt other airlines pay less going elsewhere and still manage better time keeping than Monarch.

If Monarch have 400+ pilots in employment at the moment and only 32 aircraft, then they are over crewed and especially so if next year they won’t have any Long Haul. With 400+ pilots Monarch have enough to fly 40 aircraft on short haul, which is eight more aircraft than they now have. Considering that by the end of summer 2014 they will be retiring 3 B757s and 4 A300s, they have time enough to see how next summer works out before taking any new pilots now. If they take on 100 new pilots for next summer, as mentioned here, what are these guys going to be flying and how many hours every month. As admitted earlier in this forum, a MON pilot says that they only fly 40 to 60 hours per month......, which seems to hold up the theory that they are presently over crewed and have enough crews even for next year’s folly.

Never mind chaps if you get a job with Monarch you can rely on strong BALPA union representation, only problem is that those first in are the last out at the first sign of any redundancies and the reverse situation for the new entrants, last in are first out, so don’t burn any boats and put wax in your ears or tie yourselves to the main mast of the ship before setting sail in the open sea.....the sirens’ call is not all it’s made out to be.....

Monarch deserves better management than they have at present and they deserve to be profitable and thrive but the business can never thrive on losses, refinancing and reckless expansion into the unknown.

If there are any responses to my comments above, it would be appreciated if they were offered with facts and figures and not a simple “rubbish” statement. Thanks. Most of the information here can be found in previous posts in various forums.

[New T2 Office]

'''a MON pilot says that they only fly 40 to 60 hours per month......, which seems to hold up the theory that they are presently over crewed and have enough crews even for next year’s folly'''



40-60 hrs............if only............granted thats true for us guys on 50% though

Overcrewed, I'll tell crewing in the morning, I'll let you know what they say.............after they've picked themselves up from rolling around the floor laughing:D:D

[MaxPower2011]

40-60 hours a month??? News to me, I've been running at 90+ for the last 3 months and there is overtime galore available.

Maybe on the 757, but that figure is the exception.

I cannot argue with any of the facts and figures above, in fact Im sure it must have taken Djerba hours to collect them, however the nature of how Monarch works would suggest you cannot hang your hat on them either. To fully appreciate Monarchs performance, you would have to look at the group as a whole. I don't know the figures, but I'd bet they wouldn't paint as negative a picture as Djerba suggests.

[mesh]

DD I have said it once and I will say it again, utter rubbish. I don't have to spend hours scouring the web to try and build a picture of what's happening in Monarch, I see it every day. Your posting is wrong in many areas which tells me you obviously don't work for us thank god. I will not go into all points as I have a life, a girl, :mad: and too little time for self abuse. A few points to think about, we are not opening a base at BHX this year I think you will find we have been there for a while. But if you pull it up on one of your searches on a cold lonely night then please let us know. The best one though is your monkey maths regarding crewing levels. What was it again, 400+ pilots / 32 aircraft(WRONG 34) = how many hours per pilot. Our cc spends hundreds of hours of their time trying to work out and negotiate with ops our crewing levels on a daily basis as the goalposts are constantly changing. I will give you a hint, what about pilots who train on the ground, what about pilots who spend time out of the cockpit in Luton on cc business, safety officers, medical advisors......how about female pilots on maternity, long term sick........and so on. But oh no, you spend a few minutes on google and hey presto a bloody expert is born. Our reasons for moving into Leeds and East Mids are what again? What, we are going to try and get extra pax to fly with us, how dare us. I'm not going to slag Jet 2 off but some of their pax will try us and if we get it right they will fly with us again and the same goes for Jet 2. Neither of us can tell what will happen......hold on, sorry I forgot my place...I can't tell what will happen but it sure feels good to be part of a company that's taking a shot at the title...

A few more lonely hours needed on the Internet for these guys me thinks....

[fmgc]

Monarch deserves better management than they have at present and they deserve to be profitable and thrive but the business can never thrive on losses, refinancing and reckless expansion into the unknown.

I believe it has very good management now.

All this sounds very FR like in it's bashing. Smells of an O'Leary stitch up to me!

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I've worked for a couple of none aviation employers in the past that underwent expansion on a similar scale to Monarch. They just didn't have the resources to manage the expansion in enough detail and expanded into markets that were not profitable. When economic circumstances caused those markets to reduce in size they downsized, reducing staff on a grand scale.

If, I was offered the job, I'd probably take it. However I'd do it on the basis that I'd have a 50/50 chance of being fired within 2 years and wouldn't pin a mortage or anything like that around a job at Monarch. If it worked out though, it could be nice, but to start thinking about time to command and that kind of stuff is premature.

My gut feeling about Monarch is that they need to downsize and concentrate on improving margins, not expanding to increase revenue. So, good luck to those that get the jobs, but for goodness sake, go in with your eyes open, understand how risky the expansion is and have a plan B if it goes pear shaped.

[renort]

sorry folks, some dodgy crew establishment figures aside, DD has it nailed. Disregard his words at your peril. Management need to wake up.

[Fansfail]

Guys, if you look at the posting history of the ones that have gone on a bit of a tirade above you'll see that they have some kind of vendetta towards the company, lord knows why...

Yes Monarch isn't perfect, find me an airline that is, but to trot out all this guff about have heads buried in the sand is unfounded.

[brakedwell]

Having retired from the airline scene in 1997 I no longer have any contacts in Monarch and no axe to grind, but I can see a worrying similarity with the failure of Air Europe in 1991. AE focussed on extending their short haul scheduled network during a recession and expanded when everyone else was cutting back. To the very end new pilots were being recruited to crew the shiny new aircraft on order. Then along came the long run up to Gulf War One, passengers stopped flying, the money ran out and the rest is history.
Anyone with a full time contract working for a successful LCC, however dissatisfied, should think very carefully about the consequences of being unemployed in these troubled times.

I hope I'm wrong and Monarch's shift to scheduled services is successful.

[renort]

Guys, if you look at the posting history of the ones that have gone on a bit of a tirade above you'll see that they have some kind of vendetta towards the company, lord knows why...

Yes Monarch isn't perfect, find me an airline that is, but to trot out all this guff about have heads buried in the sand is unfounded.

whereas you've just joined, and offered nothing by way of counterbalance to DD and Ray Webster's posts. Stick your fingers in your ears if you like lads, you wont change the outcome like that.

[Burpbot]

Biggles, totally agree with you!

One day I hope to join you at spotty M, good luck fella.

[BlackandBrown]

Whilst we are looking at posting histories consider that those who are so offended by people having an opinion other than their own have a combined posting history of about 10, we're all registered in June/July 2012 and offer very little signal and a great deal of noise. Interesting.

[Rushed Approach]

Monarch has been a more than 50% scheduled airline for over a decade now and is currently more like 80% scheduled, with more scheduled routes, including winter ski, being added all the time. The idea that we have "just" decided to go scheduled is thus rather wide of the mark. A charter flight is by definition profitable (as long as you can add up) as you sell the aircraft for a fixed price when it is hired which covers your costs (including fuel price increases between signing the contract and flying the sectors) - it is then up to the charterer to recover its costs. However, over the last 10 years there has been less charter business around - from the tour operators' point of view, why take the risk chartering a whole aeroplane when you can just buy a block of scheduled seats?

As has been said the numbers of pilots an airline employs is rather meaningless as it is "Full Time Equivalents" that is the important number - many of our pilots are either 75% or 50% of full time or employed on part-year working with some of the winter months off, which other than for a limited quota of new joiners is at the pilot's own choice. If you look at the CAA produced figures Monarch compares pretty favourably with the rest in terms of crew efficiency. 700 to 800 hours a year is typical on the SH FBW fleet, and pilots regularly choose to breach the 90 hours a month contractual limit in return for overtime payments. Given that we are not the worst payers in the industry, this must mean that they like coming to work!

In terms of Shareholder investment, why would a private business be afforded a cash injection of any amount if there was not a vision that there was money to be made in the longer term? No company can rest on its laurels and assume that because it has been around for 45 years it will always be there - the airline business, of all businesses, has no respect for past heritage and it is the hard numbers that count. Nevertheless, over that 45 years Monarch has quietly adapted to change, usually under other airlines' radars, the transition to scheduled flights being a prime example where most observers simply haven't noticed. All this whilst quietly pioneering new technology such as the B757 to cite an old example and fitting Class 2 EFBs to its aircraft as a more recent one.

Monarch is not afraid to take on the competition, and where it does it usually wins market share until it is the most popular airline on that route. We have moved to take over some of the Baby routes from EMA, but notice that this is a small fraction of the total routes that Baby flew. Our operations in the Baby/Jet2 part of the UK in Birmingham and Manchester (where we are the largest operator bar none) have been very successful, and we look forward to growing those businesses in a measured way and taking on new bases where this is prudent. Far from being a "reckless" expansion it is simply taking advantage of the market as it presents itself, leaving other airlines trailing in its wake, and incidentally those airlines have made no secret that they are pretty hacked off about it, as has been evidenced in part here I suspect.

A recession means you have to do what you have been doing well better, cut out the dead wood and become more efficient, advertise to keep your customers doing what they know they really want to, and treat your competitors with the utmost respect whilst trying to pinch their business! :ok:

[Marvo]

I applaud any airline offering permanent contracts and not the morally bankrupt pay by the block hour contracts that seem to be the norm with low cost carriers! Faced with the choice of leaving my family and working hour to hour in a European base not of my choosing or a permanent contract at base I can request, the decision is an easy one to make! Good luck to all those in the running. What does p**s me off is that the overall winners will be CTC!

[X-Centric]

Really surprised that no-one has yet mentioned the pension deficit that they've run up , we're talking hundreds of millions of pounds here . And about ten million (?) a year from the company goes into attempting to reduce this for the next 20 years or so.
Interesting times at ZB - this new commercial head (who doesnt seem to stick around long anywhere - source , LinkedIn) really isn't afraid to take risks with regard to new routes/bases , and so for the first time there is no "quietly adapting to change" , its a full on ZB assault , albeit about 10 years too late in my view.
MON were losing money and it wasn't working . Long haul was pretty well non-existant (bar Hadj and MOD) , small tour ops charter was dying post XL and recession , so with this new found cash injection from Lugano , it had to be ZB and a complete change in company policy , or bust (excuse the pun) .
However still in 2012 , the uk lo-co market is saturated , there's still a recession on , and there is literally nowhere else to go for MON's new aircraft, hence the almost desperate steps of announcing Ema and extra Bhx post the Baby shutdown. The subbing in of 4 737 aircraft , in what i can only think is an airport slot gaining exercise , is again risky in terms of pax perception , and financially hopeless!
Don't get me wrong - this might work , and it needs to -and JS will be seen as the saviour of LU2 , it might however not , and then things get nasty.
I agree with brakedwell when he notices the similarities between Air Europe and MON dramatically increasing their fleet size during a recesssion (note i've used that word 3 times now) , and whereas in 1991 MON survived cos of Euroberlin , now they've only got ZB.
If you are a cadet or stuck on a TP (and they like Flybe!) then definitely go for it in order to get some jet hours . Otherwise , i would seriously heed the advice of some on here (i'm even agreeing with B+B!) and proceed with caution.....

[fmgc]

the almost desperate steps of announcing Ema and extra Bhx post the Baby shutdown

It is by no means desperate.

Monarch are taking advantage of a few of the routes left open by BMI Baby and not the non profitable ones.

The subbing in of 4 737 aircraft , in what i can only think is an airport slot gaining exercise

We are not talking slots but taking up the slack left behind by BMI Baby and the need to move fast before other airlines moved in, which they tried to do but couldn't as we had done it already.

By your argument they must have been desperate too then!

On most of the routes we do we hold the highest market share and the ones where we don't we hold 2nd place.

Yes we did make a loss but it can't be compared to other airlines as the money set up is completely different. The shareholder takes money out so we don't have the cash in the bank that other airlines do, but when we need cash he lets us have some back.

Bear in mind also that in the loss we made quite a bit of that was money paid to the shareholder in lease costs for the aeroplanes. A bit of smoke and mirrors but things weren't as bad as the bottom line might make it seem.

There does seem to be sour grapes against Monarch and I would imagine that a lot of it is O'Leary stooges as he is upset that we beat him into EMA.

To that end I don't know why I am getting sucked in by the Trolls!

EDIT TO SAY:

Having read DjerbaDevil's posts in other threads he is obviously a Jet 2 man, one of the other airlines beaten to EMA and we are now launching from LBA this winter so no sour grapes there!!!

[Burpbot]

Seems to me people are quitting good jobs to go to monarch, and most people would love to join! If I was to listen to any uk operators employees ( don't include ryan!!! Yes I know ei but mostly uk ops) they hate work! Monarch seems a place of contentment, that's Novel these days, good on them!

[mesh]

DD is also a 757 man, I wonder if he applied to us not so long ago and didn't get the gig......

[assymetricdrift]

So with all this talk about great negativity from people designed to stir up anti-Monarch feelings, I'd like to ask the question, genuinely to those who are more in the know than us:

Do we know what the future plans of Monarch are?

From what I hear, the new routes out of BHX are doing excellently, and giving "the largest regional airline" a little bit of a pasting on the routes they are competing on. But this expansion out of BHX and EMA, is it going to be part of a continued expansion plan? Or is it just capitalising on the bmiBaby routes? Would there be further plans for expanding the airline and route network too?

All this talk about negativity and the airline not knowing what they are doing, is a bit insane. In my opinion, there's got to be a plan... BHX has always been an under-served airport in terms of many routes and I think that MON are filing the void very nicely at the moment.

The problem with EMA would be the direct competition against Jet2, who I believe could well be their largest competitor at the moment.

I'm sure the answers lie somewhere in the previous pages, but sifting through pages of people saying "You're all fools for applying" doesn't really appeal to me right now.

[Alloy]

To correct some of the wrongly stated facts above:

Monarch have been at BHX for 15 plus years.

Hour wise I think most Monarch fbw full time captains are flying between 700 and 850 hours year - some are doing more. There is a shortage of crew at present otherwise we would not be wet leasing in additional capacity.

Of the employers/airlines I've worked for Monarch is not perfect (tell me an airline that is) but they are by far and away the best employer I've had.

[fmgc]

There is a shortage of crew at present otherwise we would not be wet leasing in additional capacity

We are short of crew at the moment without taking into account the expansion but when the training program is complete hopefully we should be fully up to strength. We just couldn't get the airplanes or crews trained in time for the short lead time into these new routes, we would have had to wet lease anyway.

To answer an earlier question there was going to be an expansion anyway but the demise of BMI Baby has accelerated the plans.

[BlackandBrown]

We just couldn't get the airplanes or crews trained in time for the short lead time into these new routes, we would have had to wet lease anyway.

What does that tell you about how long and hard they've thought about and planned this expansion? The company and it's plans in today's market in my opinion are fraught with failure.

[fmgc]

B&B,

Are you very small??

Expansion well thought out but brought forward due demise of Baby.

[BlackandBrown]

No you're just standing far away.

So they didn't fancy their chances against BMI baby? I don't fancy their chances then.

[P-T]

I have heard from Management that they are now recruiting for courses in April for the Airbus, no idea about the 75, but I think it was one course planned.

Again, none of this is concrete, just what I've heard from the inside.

[windshear-a-head]

Sounds like recruitment is almost complete then if they're booking into April. :(

[gunka]

B&B, a long time ago you stated you were leaving this discussion, what changed your mind? Nobody missed you. we get it, Mon not for you although our famous selection procedure (tw@t test) should ensure we never have the displeasure of your company anyway. Your ill informed outsiders opinion is neither constructive or helpful, merely negative towards a company you have no connection to or desire to join. It was previously stated there was always an intention to expand, the sad demise of baby just increased the opportunities and hopefully we can hoover up some of the experienced guys that find themselves in an unfortunate position now.
Seriously, didn't daddy love you enough? Or did Uncle Bob love you too much? ;)
Go get a hobby.

[BBK]

Gunka

Like it!;)

Never worked for Monarch but have always thought of them as a good an employer as any out there. Not flash but they have survived the hard times that others have not. I'm sure it's not perfect there but where is? Good luck to all the guys applying to them.

[Mr.Bloggs]

Nice airline, largely good people. But directionless and floundering. As usual, blame top management, not the airline. Mid 2013, gone

[ATIS]

Ohh B&B how you have a short memory. Monarch is currently experiencing growing pains as your beloved Easyjet did couple of years ago. Who can forget the absolute ball ache you lot endured during that summer.

Easyjet got it so wrong that year, they turned to Monarch for a short lease at LGW as crews were maxed out. Not slagging off Easyjet in anyway as BA suffered the same fate and called in Monarch.

Now it's our turn

And let's not forget the PM you sent me registering a lil interest in Monarch few months back. You're permanent and safe in Easy, many of your colleagues are not so fortunate. No idea if it's down to BALPA screwing you over or vice versa.

Wind your neck in

[HPbleed]

Haha the truth is out! :D

[CEJM]

Let me understand this correctly. The owner of Monarch Airlines is the 546th richest ($2.3B) person on this planet. He made this money by running a multitude of different companies. And now the armchair idiots come out and say in a roundabout way that he doesn’t know what he is doing? :ugh:

The gentleman above has run more businesses then any of you had hot meals. While doing this, he has seen several recessions and the effects of those on the individual businesses. Do you really believe that he would have invested in Monarch if he would think that Monarch would fold anytime soon? He has got some of the best financial advisers on his staff and if he would not have wanted Monarch to succeed he would have wound the company up at the beginning of the recession.

[walterthesofty]

Now that is a pretty valid point i have to say...People dont become self made billionaires by chance

[Craggenmore]

Do you really believe that he would have invested in Monarch if he would think that Monarch would fold anytime soon

Would Monarch already have folded if it's ownership had been different, say a banking conglomerate..?

The wealthy GB Airways owners pulled the plug but Branson still refuses to let his baby go.

[HPbleed]

I beg you, don't come back.

[pabloc]

Mr Bloggs,i better inform the family i'll be out of work by mid2013!!!!....could you give me six lotto numbers as well! Seeing as though you can predict the future!!?..:mad:

[fmgc]

NOT to belittle Monarch

That's all the troll has done!!!

[gunka]

Even in signing off B&B you manage to degrade and insult people, incredible. Flexi crew nonentities? Apparently you were interested in Mon after all, don't waste your time, not with that attitude. People here, no matter what their rank or contract get treated with respect by their peers and management who they know by first name and can call any time they have an issue. If the alternative is working with people like you is it any wonder they are looking to leave? What's your excuse for putting out the feelers if the future is so bright and orange?
The one thing I do agree with you is that time will tell, not you, not me or anyone else on here. If I had that crystal ball I wouldn't be flying for a living, I'd be doing it for fun.

[Mr. Blonde]

Had an interview over a week ago and yet to hear anything? I am TR'd with plenty of hours. Fearing the worst..........

[Flying Wild]

Hearing that several bmibaby pilots have been offered jobs.

[Sprinkles]

Wanted to add my 2 cents to this thread.

Leaving very (secure?) flexi orange job to go to Mon. My reasons are quite simple. The constant shafting I've received from ej/CTC since starting with regards to hours and pay has forced me to seek a competitive salary else where. I love my job. I fly with great people and a/c but no interest from the company in making any UK flexi based F/O's permanent employees. And please no one say Project Merlin was competitive! :ugh:

So I don't want to leave but feel I have no other choice given the opportunity. To give people a realistic idea and scale of the problem here's a very real example. If i'm rostered 30 hours in Dec (they're quite entitled too and what I had last year), I'll earn a whooping £1,290 gross. Well it's no surprise that my loan repayments, rent, food, council tax, water tax, electricity, car running costs etc exceed this. :{

I do ask people if you were in my (our) position of actually making yourself further in debt by staying with you current employer, would you not seek employment elsewhere?

Mr Blonde. Never heard of anyone who has had an interview turned down. But that's not to say it doesn't happen. They took about 9 working days to get back to me so hold tight. :ok:

Also a mate of mine (Experienced turb prop guy) has got an interview so those with similar experience are also in with a shout.

Now no one put a gun to my head and forced me to go to orange land last year so most of my financial problems are mostly self inflicted. Yes I said it I'm well and truely part of the main :mad: up that constitutes flexi-crew. I'm not proud of it nor do I defend myself other than the fact we were all spun various "promises" from ctc/ej that never materialised, Permanent UK jobs within the company which when proposed left a bitter taste in the mouth. Fortunately there were rejected. A pay example illustrated what people would earn flying a minimum of 750 hours a year. I'll be lucky if I break 700! That'll be over £2,000 less a year earnings.

So now a better offer has come up I've found it very difficult to turn it down. Especially as my job is so secure..... or is it. Anyone see I put a question mark after it at the start?

Well the latest rumour on the street is 40 orange a/c will be parked up over the winter with 150-250 guys let go over the quiet season. So for anyone to say that flexi-crew guys have secure jobs are a little deluded in my honest opinion. CTC and ej can give us 30 days notice if they don't want us. And I suspect the guys that are doing there 8 months line flying may well not be flying anything after that. But on the flip side this does give the company great flexibility at a very low cost. Yay!!! :yuk:

Hopefully that's a good grounded opinion of someone that is in the continual mire that is otherwise known as flexi-crew.

p.s. B&B. I can honestly say I respect your opinion and that of your peers with similar thoughts. In fact I kind of think we'd get on quite well if we flew together. I like flying with people that have good conversation skills and their own opinions. Always good to get another point of view. That's genuine. But this thread is here for people that want to go to Mon. I'm sure we're all big boys and girls and can make up our own decisions based on what we're able to find out ourselves. Despite the risks!

Good luck to everyone else going through the Monarch process, those on flexi-crew this winter and Monarch!!!

[McC]

Sprikles,

If every post was like yours this would be a better place!

Well done, good luck.

:ok:

[nowind]

Sprinkles,

I wish you all the best in your new job. With an attitude like yours you will get along well everywhere. Well put and very balanced.

We might even have flown together.

[Dan 98]

Sprinkles

If i was in your position I would do the same, it is a no brainer!

Best of luck. :ok:

[BlackandBrown]

Sprinkles I too would do the same. Before you wrote that I was going to say something. I've recently seen the same documents you mentioned and to be honest the situation in easy is now beyond the pale. I wasn't aware it was this bad. It is unreasonable. Easyjet are playing a very short term game. A game which eventually will make the job not worth it - certainly not with the level of debt we have attached to it. Life's too short.

To that end I'd recommend taking the Monarch offer with both hands and wish you and anyone else who does luck with it.

[J320]

I, too, was going to write something similar to Sprinkles. Unfortunately the situation for FlexiCrew is becoming unacceptable. The latest cadets, I believe, have been told to expect the winter off. Those pilots nearing the end of their contracts with easyJet, I believe, have doubts about whether they will be kept on.

I do not want to turn this into a debate about cadets and their naivety but it is unfortunate they are still signing up with the knowledge it will not provide a job.

Sprinkles speaks a lot of sense and to add further to their gloomy picture for current FlexiCrew, it would appear that summer hours are reducing gradually also. When I signed up I was told to expect low winter hours but the annual salary would be leveled out with high summer hours. Not so anymore.

There is an argument that one is foolish for staying in the UK on FlexiCrew rather than moving abroad and enjoying full terms and conditions. This is a valid argument but unfortunately Europe will eventually, and fairly soon, be saturated with pilots leading to far lower levels of movement if the fleet does not continue to expand and promotions slow.

With this knowledge in hand, the argument of FlexiCrew versus Monarch is quite a simple one and I have opted for the latter. I am thankful Monarch are providing the opportunity and look forward to working for them. I have spoken to many of their staff and they all have good things to say about the company so I can’t wait to start. The conditions are good but perhaps more valuable to me is the certainty if the company continues to be successful and the prospect of being treat like a professional pilot.

I will never criticise my colleagues from easyJet as I have had the great pleasure of flying with some wonderful pilots to whom I owe a lot. I have also had the pleasure of working with great cabin crew and ground staff. It is of great sadness to me that that the company is wrecked by ongoing contractual situations and continuous contempt from management. I hope the tide turns in favour of the employees but I fear this will take a long while.

I am pretty sure I know Black and Brown and if I am correct with my assumptions I can vouch that he actually is a decent guy who speaks without malice. B and B has made valid arguments but as he acknowledges, it is unlikely that there will be a positive future for FlexiCrew within the UK.

As for those with questions about the interview, it is very relaxed. Two management pilots having a chat about you and your career. There will likely be a technical aspect and some discussion about CRM and other non-technical skills.

If the Monarch I saw during my application and interview is anything to go by, I expect I will love working for them. Good luck all.

[MaxPower2011]

It is a real shame the easyJet has gone down this path. They have everything in place to be a very good career airline: convenient bases, new well equipped aircraft, excellent training and great routes. For some reason they choose not to. Although you get the odd arrogant t****r, many of the cadets are competent, professional and level headed, as sprinkles so eloquently demonstrated. In any other profession, pay and terms and conditions would be such as to attract and retain these types of people. Easy seems to be actively doing the opposite as at present there is a constant stream of (cheaper) newbies to take their place. From a business point of view it makes perfect sense, from a moral point of view it is just wrong. Many large businesses, including airlines have managed to be successful without resorting to these draconian methods.

It is easy to blame the cadets or call them naive, however when faced with loan repayments etc and flexi-crew is your only option, you have to accept the pain, use it as a means to getting experience and move on. You could go further and question the taking of such loans or even getting involved with CTC in the first place. You can keep asking questions but eventually you arrive at one which we can be asked of all of us, why did you choose this profession in the first place?

We can speculate and debate all day as to the security of one airline against another, however surely this is a question of job security. In a sane world this would represent the same thing, however this is not the case as the flexi-crew contract offers no security whatsoever within what is a very secure airline.

I made my decision based on the same reasons highlighted in the last few posts and can honestly 100% say that I have not regretted my decision for a second. I have always enjoyed my job, but I now do so without resentment towards my employer and I actually feel appreciated for my efforts. On that basis I would actively encourage anyone, especially flexi-crew, to move.

Monarch like easyJet, demand high competency and professionalism. The difference is, in return you will be treated with respect, be paid well (and consistently!) and be afforded a decent work life balance and a definite career structure.

[Ray Webster]

April 2010 Monarch teetered on the edge of failure following the Ash Cloud.

They have now abandoned that long held business model and bought new aircraft for new routes and new bases. Trouble is they pay too much money for too inflexible crew and I doubt they got aircraft anywhere near as cheaply as Ryan or Easy did when they ordered hundreds when the makers were desperate. So their cost base is higher. Their marketing budget will have to be higher again to win new customers on new routes from new bases.

They, like all airlines in that scenario, will bleed money heavily. Now I have no idea whether the owner cares about this or not. But neither do you. There is the gamble. Given the economic clouds forecast for 2013 I'd say the odds are risky.

Aer Lingus, a company with a significantly higher public awareness than Monarch, couldn't make LGW or BFS work when they put some A320's in there five years ago with crews on degraded contracts. Does Monarch know something Aer Lingus didn't? Maybe. Maybe not. Similarly there was a lot of excitement when BMI announced they were entering the point to point direct sales market with BMI Baby. Its taken nine years for that to come to an end in deep losses despite 2003 - 2007 being boom years.

Those joining for the present expansion are getting a better deal than they are currently on. That's part of the problem. It won't last. Then you're job hunting in 49degree heat and still carrying those massive training loans you signed up for :{

[PilotsOfTheCaribbean]

All companies that do fail usually do so for one very simple reason......They run out of cash!

The fundamental misunderstanding people often make, is that Monarch is a private company and not a PLC. It sits within a fairly complex and not particularly transparent portfolio of other companies that are also owned by the same families. Within these companies there is a significant degree of symbiosis as well as a degree of independence. To that extent there is also a high degree of risk hedging. In lay terms they keep their "egg" portfolio in a number of baskets.

The largest two "lo-co's" keep all their eggs in one basket. The model is simple, and in commerce it is a well established one. "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap!" They have a low cost base by contract leasing almost everything, from the aircraft to the pot plant in the Managing Directors office." There is precious little risk hedging, but that is offset by aggresive marketing and volume sales to achieve both growth and that all important cash flow. With the latter in mind they are also cash businesses. Almost all of their point of sale business is cash on purchase with most delivery at a later date. That cash generation tool is a critically important part of the model.

Historically if you at look at the evolution of airline models within similar markets, the real vulnerability is in being "runner up," in second place. The demise of the biggest competitor in your backyard eventually becomes the easiest if not the only road to expansion.

Monarch hasn't abandoned its previous model. It has however recognised the realities of the evolution of the markets it operates in, as well as the other players (big and small) within those markets. Its strengths lie in the versatility to adapt to those markets, which is what you are seeing now.

As a private company, and certainly as this private company, it is not dependent on nervous banks to call the shots. The few shareholders this company has, have drawn income from a succesful business for 95% of its existence. For the remaining 5% they have had to reverse that flow of monies. Whilst I am not privy to how they strategize the business, given the portfolio of companies that offset short term losses in one, it doesn't appear to be something they want to cut loose anytime soon.

Notwithstanding the above, losses do nothing to contribute to a succesful portfolio. There has been a lot of introspection in all of the component parts of the businesses. To some extent we have been very slow to adopt primary economies that the lo-co's realized years ago. Whilst that isn't a good thing, there is a lot of margin for savings that aren't there to competitors. This will significantly turn around the numbers. When you add that to the in-house plans, the outlook is very good indeed.

Nothing in life or business is guaranteed, and it is a basic economic tenet that profit is payment for risk. However as anybody with their own private company knows all too well, businesses are structured towards the growth of the business and providing the income for the owners. Profit is what tax is paid on, so it is rarely a spectacular number.

For those joining Monarch now, I sincerely believe they have a good future. I do not doubt that ongoing evolution will bring changes, some of which will be unwelcome, but accepting the reality of risk, many of the fundamentals are very good.

As it relates to the basis of this thread, Monarch is a company that has always recruited quality people from a spectrum of backgrounds: Military career changers; Experienced self improver civilian pilots; Cadets from affiliated integrated training schools. As a TRTO we are well placed and have no particular aversion to offering type specific training courses to otherwise well qualified pilots. This diversity of recruitment provides an element of chlorine to the group demographic pool. Within each recruitment profile, the terms and conditions on offer are very fair. Where there is a price point differential (such as with cadets) the apprenticeship period is usually less than 18 months, and then it is a level playing field.

If you read this thread from the start, and you read a few other similar long threads, you will find it is generally the same people wading in with ill informed and often vacuous comments. That can't be helped, and it is the nature of this particular beast.

Monarch is a good company and a good employer. Within the confines of professional confidentiality, discretion, and experience, I have tried to show why it is a good company. It's strengths lie in it's resources which are not as fragile as some people imagine. They also lie in its staff. Not just pilots, but engineers, cabin crew, managers, apprentices and admin' staff.

That is why you see so little criticism or bad mouthing of the business from anybody that actually knows anything about the reality of it.

[Invalid User Name]

PilotsOfTheCaribbean - What an excellent post. Informative, well balanced and erudite.

The demise of the biggest competitor in your backyard eventually becomes the easiest if not the only road to expansion.

Speaks volumes.

[fmgc]

PoC

You make an excellent post but I am afraid that if you were trying to persuade Ray Webster then you will fail. He is bigoted and ignorant.

I guess that he is slinging mud at the wall hoping that some of it will stick trying to create the self fulfilling prophecy.

He has no idea about our future fleet plan or expansion plan. He has no idea of our business model, or the success of the cost saving initiatives. He has no idea of the load factors and associated yields that we are currently enjoying that the LoCos can only be envious of. He has now idea how well our new routes are selling.

He comes from the MOL and Stelios mould of the idea of success is not to just compete but to actually want to see the destruction of any competition and the associated loss of jobs and misery it causes. An abhorrent and immoral way of conducting business.

This can be evidenced by the Schadenfreud that both airlines enjoy by trumpeting other's misery with slogans down the side of their aeroplanes.

Have FR yet painted "The Baby is Dead" or some such other hideous slogan down their fuselage yet?

[fmgc]

I am sure that Easy used to have a Bye Bye BA slogan down the side and often had anti Go slogans down the side.

And I also remember Stelios being interviewed saying that his aim was to see BA have to pull out of the short haul market completely.

Remember the newspaper ads naming the Companies that flew their staff with BA and not EZY trying to entice the shareholders of those Companies to sell up their shares claiming that the Companies were throwing money down the drain?

I am not slinging mud at all, I have not said anything about anybody else's financial situation or prospects for the future.

If you think that this slagging match is childish then your post only goes to exacerbate it!! :ugh:

[go around flaps15]

I dont think that FR have painted a slogan about the demise of Baby. And I think I can speak for most FR pilots that the majority of us hope that they dont.

Maybe our management take pleasure in 140 pilots being out of work.

I certainly dont.

[TartinTon]

You can't be serious flaps 40!

At various times FR have painted the following on their aircraft:

"Bye Bye Easyjet"
"Arrividerci Alitalia"
"Bye Bye Air Berlin"
"Auf Wiedersehen Lufthansa"
"Bye Bye SkyEurope"

Not a lot of moral high ground to be had from FR pilots when a lot of you have had these on the side of your aircraft over the last 4-5 years.

The same goes back to you one post. Easy and Ryan are the only airlines to have acted in this way.

Big fat gypsy airlines anyone?

[antonov09]

FR and EZY pilots had naff all to do with whats written on the side of aeroplanes.


Do you honestly think I liked or agreed with the awful sentiment portrayed with those slogans on the side of the aircraft when I was at FR?

Answer is no you egotistical birk. Funny how I left FR isnt it.

[TartinTon]

antonov...don't be a pillock and read the posts.

Of course the pilots don't have a say in what gets written on the side of the aircraft but I'm sure they're not blind to what's written there either and there is no moral ground to be had for either FR or U2 pilots.

[antonov09]

I tried to ignore it. To say it made me angry to see those slogans about the plight of fellow aviators would be putting it mildly.

[shaun ryder]

And its berk, not birk, you berk.

[Burpbot]

I dont mean to be rude, BUT i think most people myself included wouldn't waste any effort caring about anything to do with ryanair or easy jet! I have no wish to join either hence reading the thread about monarch recruitment!

If you want to rant about how cancerous companies are better then please do everyone a favour and start the "easy/Ryanair will rule the world thread" and let those interested find out more about MONARCH!!!!

Thank you.

[PilotsOfTheCaribbean]

This thread is starting to meander, and this morality discussion is an oxbow lake. Dicky Branson ressurected the concept of "shock" advertising with his boat, balloon and fibreglass airplane adventures years ago. The "shock" element was in his personal exploits, but they were always accompanied by the word Virgin in 12 foot high letters in the background, and good luck to him. As I recall, he also launched the concept of political slogan graffiti on the fuselage. "No way BA/AA" etc. Others then copied the concept with topics such as the abolition of duty free, etc. The lo-co's didn't miss a trick either and used the aircraft as billboards for their own marketing news, telephone numbers, as well as billboards for third party advertising. I remember seeing whole aircraft painted up in the colours of Hertz, Jaguar etc. Some of the perhaps more tasteless slogans of triumph, simply emulated some of the more tasteless slogans that were being orated by the "Shock Jock" MD's of one or two companies. Whether they believed what they said, I have no idea, but it achieved a result. That result I already alluded to in my previous post, aggressive marketing by way of free publicity!

Whole TV series were devoted to some of these fast expanding companies. Aggressive marketing formed the core element of many of these programmes. It often mattered little if the emotions being aroused in the viewing audience were anger, loathing, hate or love, just so long as it did arouse an emotion that would instill the name of the company in the wider public psyche. Even Monarch dipped their toe in this particular pond.

Pilots had no real input in this marketing concept, and the morality, tastefulness or otherwise of it, is irreleant to this particular discussion. Pilots I know in other companies work within the confines set by their own managements. We all work to put food on the table, a roof over our families heads and have enough left over to buy jam and save for the future! It is therefore important that we are satisfied we have made the right choices in life.

I am happy that I made a right choice many years ago. I am happy with what I know now. I am happy to advise my own family to follow in my footsteps. I am happy to advise others to follow the same path. When I speak to other pilots, it becomes clear that there are certain companies that provide a lifestyle they enjoy. That lifestyle isn't simply money although money is an important element. It involves their working profiles, their environment, and how they interact within their own workplaces. Putting competitive banter aside, it is usually clear who the good employers are, and who the bad employers are.

A company is made up of the sum total of its parts. One of those parts (and an important one) are the employees. Shock Jock policies might have a positive marketing impact with your customer base, but I believe they have completely the opposite effect with your employees. If those employees are not on your side, then you might as well be puttting bad fuel in the aircraft. You can rule by fear when you have the resources to do it, but it isn't likely to end well.

On the subject of cadets. In easyjet's defence, they were recruiting cadets throughout 5 years of an employment drought. Had it not been for them (in the most part) the backlog of new well trained pilots, would stretch through the classroooms, the halls of residence, the bank managers office, all the way down the High street, over the hills and far away! As pretty much the only game in town, and with a low cost philosophy in every heartbeat, it was inevitable that "flexicrew" and T&C's to match, would manifest themselves in some form or other. It is also perfectly reasonable that the survivors would seek the same terms as most other pilots as the situation improved.

So here we are.

Is Monarch a good move for cadets looking for a career placement? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for ex-cadets looking to advance? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for pilots looking for a career progression? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for pilots looking for career stability? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for pilots looking for a sound employer? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for pilots looking for good terms and conditions? Yes!
Is Monarch a good company for general satisfaction of lifestyle? Yes!
Is Monarch a company where you and your family are likely to be happy? Yes!
Can I guarantee the future? No! But then I couldn't thirty years ago either. However I am convinced that the future plans, resources, and commitment are very good. Talking to the new pilots who have joined this year over a beer at the bar, they don't doubt the choices they have made either, or indeed the good fortune to be a part of the future.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Good post.

The terms and conditions of the easyJet flexi cadets are what they are and are what was offered. That some are now finding jobs and contracts that they find better is good for them and good for the profession. When you're the only game in town you get to set the rules. When there's several games in town - that's much healthier and honest.

Let's just hope that we see more airlines following Monarch and investing and employing. There is a truly massive army of wannabes with licences queuing up to sign contracts of employment. I fear that we have a training industry appropriate to the boom years and as a consequence a huge oversupply of cadet pilots. As such I doubt much will change contract wise at the big locos for many years. The good news for airlines like Monarch is that this provides a rich resource of experienced, well trained and willing FO's.

[fade to grey]

well, I wish my former colleagues well.I know a few from baby who have been hovered up by Mon for EMA.

I hope their transition to a more aggressive loco scheduled pays off. They appear to be one of the few 'gentleman' airlines left.Good TCs, bonded for new types. I always enjoy travelling with them, because I get an allocated seat...Should have applied really.

By comparison, E*syjet, from a passenger point of view shows it's age , its all cool brittania, mid 90s, Tony Blair. IE horrible.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

fade to grey - whatever your particular angst towards easyJet, the travelling public would not seem to support your view. In March 2012 (the last month for which Monarch published stats), Monarch carried 249,646 passengers on scheduled services. In the same month easyJet carried 4,629,241 passengers. Perhaps they may be doing more right than would initially be apparent to you.

I feel a sense of great sadness that a significant number of easyJet flexicrew pilots have got up and left to join Monarch. I stand by my view that it is a risky move, but genuinely wish them success in their new company. As anyone who has been around aviation knows, there is very little genuine making of your own luck. The moves you make seem good or bad at the time, but are rarely what you expected or intended. My gut feeling is that Monarch are not the wondrous rescuers of the poor and needy that they are being touted as here, nor is their future as bright as some of their employees would wish to think. Nonetheless, I am utterly frustrated at easyJet's attitude and I recognise that we have created this situation.

I would commend the wise words of Wee Weasley Welshman who invariably has great insight on these and other matters. He would contend that ultimately this is an issue of supply and demand. In essence these young cadets have by their very presence priced experienced pilots out of jobs and thought they had done well. Alas, they are finding out that the very quality (i.e. cheap to employ) that got them their job is the very same one that is forcing them to move on. A hard-nosed businessmen (of whom there are a number in senior positions at easyJet), might hold a radical view on this subject. He might say that cadets are two a penny and why should they change how things are done when it is like taking candy from kids? Basically, they can offer to charge people to work for us and still they would come in their hundreds. There is an infinite supply of desperate young men and women who would do virtually anything and sign any contract to wake up in the cockpit of an Airbus. Given that scenario, why would a business want to pay big money for them when they will effectively pay us to let them fly? I do not subscribe to that view myself, but it would seem to be the inevitable consequence of flooding a market with low-houred pilots, most of whom will never actually have a job. Those that do can be replaced overnight by 10 more will work for even less than their predecessors. Given that situation, it is almost impossible to maintain terms and conditions. My hearty congratulations to Monarch for behaving so honourably, but I fear they are in a very small minority of companies.

[Serenity]

You can't compare passenger numbers like that.
Easyjet have more aircraft at Gatwick alone than Monarch have in their whole fleet!
Different products, Easy pile high, sell cheap and have a huge number of aircraft, routes and bases to cover the costs. It is a shame that they just don't have more respect for their staff!!
Monarch are going through a transition and expansion. Being smaller they try to offer a better service, remember sweets, newspapers and hot meals?! Unfortunately to compete effectively against the newer carriers cuts have had to be made, they they still aim for the quality, slightly more personalised service!
They do tend to have a good relationship with their employees and look after them. They know unhappy staff will leave. So they try to keep them!!

Basically as a pilot looking at the jobs, I would say Monarch do care for their pilots more! This may upset crews at Easy to see their flexi colleuges leave for a better offer. And I know as more leave the worse it will get for those left!
Monarch is a solid company who looks after staff. You can't compare to Easy and critasise. It's just not the same!!

[greywind]

I feel a sense of great sadness that a significant number of easyJet flexicrew pilots have got up and left to join Monarch. I stand by my view that it is a risky move, but genuinely wish them success in their new company

I understand this view in respect that people think Monarch is a less secure company than EZY and any possible further downturn may hit them worse.
However how is staying on a flexi crew contract with EZY anymore secure? Any down turn would hit both companies and I can't see much job security in a contracting position. You may well still have a job with EZY with earning per flying hour I wouldn't be expecting to earn much.

[fmgc]

Monarch carried 249,646 passengers on scheduled services. In the same month easyJet carried 4,629,241 passengers.

That is a ridiculous statistic, it tells you nothing. EZY have 200+ aeroplanes and Monarch a mere 32 at the moment, so of course EZY are going to carry significantly more passengers.

You may well still have a job with EZY with earning per flying hour I wouldn't be expecting to earn much.

Or you might lose your job with no redundancy protection at all!

[HPbleed]

Plus Monarch do medium/long haul so the passengers are on the aircraft longer and further... ridiculous comparison.

[Desk-pilot]

Frankly I don't work for Monarch - but I'm with a leading regional airline (who also believe in giving people a full salary, uniform, employment contract etc from day one) but I wish Monarch and all their staff every success with their strategy and I hope that Monarch continue to thrive for as long as there is Jet A1 in the ground! There are too few companies like Monarch, BA,etc who believe in treating employees as people to be nurtured, supported and developed rather than as a liability to be exploited and quite honestly if people leave Easy flexycrew or Ryan etc in droves to go to Monarch I would say it's a very sane decision. From what I gather both Easy and Ryan will work you harder, pay you less, put you on a temporary contract, charge you for type rating and line training and spit you out at a moment's notice if it suits them.

If the exodus from the lo-co's were to develop into a genuine flood then I could see a time when the likes of Easy/Ryan wouldn't be able to get away with their exploitative schemes and that would be a very happy day for all of us.

I might also say that I don't loathe Easy the way I despise Ryanair, but I just don't admire their ethics with new recruits. Frankly I might have been tempted by Monarch myself but from the jet fleet in my company with high seniority, the base I want and a permanent contract that would be a difficult choice.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

I beg to differ - those statistics tell everything. In 1996/7 we had 2 aircraft and Monarch had slightly less than they do today. We attacked the market place with clever marketing and cheap fares while companies like Monarch looked down their noses at us. The reason easyJet now has more aircraft is more people want to use them, depressing as that may be to you all. Even more depressing is the fact that Ryanair carry more passengers than we do - principally because they bought the right aircraft with 737-800s (189 seats) and we bought the wrong ones with A319s (156 seats) instead of A320s (180 seats). The fact that easyJet Gatwick (51 aircraft I believe) is substantially bigger than Monarch in total (32 aircraft) is that the people who run easyJet have been tough marketeers who have found a niche market and built aggressively upon it whilst stealing passengers from their legacy competitors. Therefore we now have 204 aircraft now instead of the 2 we started with just over 15 years ago. Monarch have rested on their laurels for years, kept an old fleet with varying mod states, flown multiple aircraft types and somehow thought it would all be all right in the end. That is not the fault of the pilots or the flight ops department but it is the fault of the people who run the company who fiddled while Rome burnt. To their great credit, Monarch are now coming out fighting, but what on earth were they thinking for the last 15 years? Just remember, these are the same people who are still running the company that all you think has a fantastic future - I genuinely hope you are right, but I would not bet my pay cheque upon it. There is much negative talk about easyJet management, but they are still talking of 'turning Europe orange'. You may not like it, but I do - I want to be part of a company where the management have vision and direction.

I have never, however, been embarrassed to say when easyJet management have been wrong, and they have most certainly been so over the cadet issue. The mere fact that cadets are desperate to go to Monarch, and feel delighted to be there, says that Monarch are doing something we are not - building a corporate culture that employees identify with and buy into. We have done that for our permanent staff but alienated our flexicrew pilots, despite countless warnings to our managers - that is something I deeply regret. The problem has been that when I and others speak to our managers, they tell me it is only old Training Captains like me who are bothered about the cadet situation and the cadets themselves think they are lucky people. I am told some of them even write emails to our CEO etc saying that they are happy with their lot! In a nutshell, they have failed to make their true feelings known - maybe for understandable fear of upsetting the apple cart. None of this is an attack on Monarch, a company that I wish nothing but good upon. It is, however, a statement that easyJet and Ryanair have wiped the floor in marketing terms with their competitors and that is reflected in the passenger statistics I have quoted and the load factors which I have not. If Monarch are at last waking up from their 15 year sleep walk into oblivion that is good news, but boy did they need to. All pilots want other pilots to succeed and have jobs. As I have said before, I would not advise my son to go to Monarch but I could be totally wrong. Many job decisions are actually emotionally driven. Something deep inside says your current employers are losers and you just need to be shot of them. Once that feeling has set in, it is almost impossible to have a rational conversation on the subject thereafter. Sadly, those cadets who have left us did so under the impression they were going to a 'proper' employer who would look after them and care for them - that is easyJet's loss and I can only regret that we failed to treat these guys better and give them proper contracts. I truly wish them well, but am yet to be persuaded that in the long term they have made the best move - time will tell if I was right or not, and I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

[HPbleed]

It tells you that easyJet have expanded massively and that's about it. What happens when they need to start replacing aircraft like Monarch are having to do? Did you decide to leave out the load factors because they tell a different story? Just out of interest I've just been on the easy website and got these:

Load Factor2 89.9% 88.3% 1.6pp
The first figure is June 2012, second is June 2011 with the percentage increase.

These are Monarch's figures for the same month:

Passenger numbers (1)
June 2012 626,185
June 2011 506,321
% change 24%

Load factor (2)
June 2012 91.52%
June 2011 87.81%
% change 3.7% pts.


As you can see - our load factor is 2% higher than easy's and we have a 24% increase in passenger figures, mainly due to better utilisation of aircraft. Monarch are making the right moves. As for passenger numbers as I said - Monarch have several long haul aircraft, the passengers may stay on for twice the length of time and pay twice the price for a ticket... so not really comparable - it's like saying Ford sold 1000 cars but Lamborghini sold 10 - but if a Lambo is 20 times as expensive and makes 100% more profit on each car - who is the real winner? You mention niches... Monarch have had their niche for a long time and easy haven't really stepped on that. The truth is airfare has become cheaper and easyJet has picked up the slack created by those lower airfares.



I'm not regretting moving at all - I earnt more this month than I did over 3 Winter months at easyJet, being a cadet at easy is the lowest of the low, I would have done anything for a permanent job on the same Ts and Cs as the other permanent guys but that will NEVER be forthcoming now at easy - can't you see that? No cadet from my era thinks themselves lucky - maybe the guys joining now who were aware of flexicrew before starting training are but then that's a different breed.


I was under the impression that Monarch treated their staff better and so far I have been proved right - so my impression was correct, if not exceeded.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Where were Monarch when you needed your first job two years ago?

I'm glad flexicadets are finding alternative jobs. Its a win for them, easyJet, CTC, some new guy, the trainers and Monarch. I don't really 'get' Monarchs new business plan but that's probably because I'm a bit thick and it hasn't been explained to me enough. No airline is 'safe' these days. Even the walls of the mighty Air France are starting to tremble..

[greywind]

I am told some of them even write emails to our CEO etc saying that they are happy with their lot!

That really does surprise me, not one flexi pilot I know would consider themselves particularly happy with their lot. Maybe happy to be scraping together loan repayment money most months and actually be flying rather than unemployed. But happy enough to be writing glowing letters to the CEO - Who are these crazy people?!

[Cheapshoes]

Ezy is indeed a very successful company but passenger figures as a comparative measure of success is just not credible. Also; "Past performance doesn't not guarantee future performance" or whatever the investment industry caveat emptor states. This is true of Monarch, and everyone else, too.

To those that join Monarch - welcome and I look forward to flying with you.

For those who have thrown their lot in with Ezy - I wish you all the best too...even the self righteous ones. :ok:

[Sprinkles]

Two years ago I missed out on a Monarch interview because I was about 5 places too far down the CTC hold pool to be considered. :(

So when the likes of easyjet came along telling us that we'll (likely) be flying in excess of 750 hours a year and permanent UK jobs were in the negotiation process it did not seem too risky to go in as flexi-crew. At the time! Obviously things have changed significantly and looking back I think I made one of the worst decisions in my career. To which I now have to pay through my nose yet again to go. From what ever angle you look at it, CTC make so much money from a flexi-crew pilot it's shameful.

I'm praying that this next move is not something I'll regret this time next year. There were no other airlines recruiting at the time and no sign of them doing so in the future so it was a choice of going to an airline with crap T&C's but gaining experience, or going back to the office to do something I had no interest in doing and said office job would probably pay me no much more than what I would be expected to earn as a flexi-crew pilot. A very tough choice had to be made.

I've heard various rumours lately. This is a rumour network after all. Including the one CM is in early negotiations to leave and go to M&S. Ride the wave, get the share price as high as it will go, cash in and leave maybe? And permanent jobs on the continent will be almost non-existent next year so flexi-crew guys waiting for one maybe sorely disappointed.

Spoke to one other flexi-crew pilot recently who thought things will get better soon at eJ. I'm not so convinced. Another who frankly mocked me for making the decision to move. :{

Here's hoping things will get better for all.

[OutsideCAS]

Anyone aware if Monarch have now finished recruting ?

I hear all about the poor flexi-crew now getting a chance to move somewhere better, would it be fair to assume that Monarch will not be looking at the folk that have not paid for their ratings, fought to work and build a handful of hours on much smaller aircraft ? fair to say they will be forgotten in the wake of the flexi-crew cadets ?

[Fansfail]

Outiside CAS - I'm not sure where the recruitment dept are up to with this. Certainly non-TRd pilots are filtering through the system with some having been offered positions and others awaiting interviews in the next few weeks.

I'm sure someone said a while back that courses have been filled up until about April 13 so far. Can anyone confirm this?

[fade to grey]

Monarch have ceased recruiting according to the website - inundated no doubt.
Meerkat - I have no angst towards Ezy at all. I just don't enjoy it as a passenger , having positioned numerous times in the past. If they just allocated a seat alot of the stress would evaporate.The crazy queues that form at the gate before it has even arrived......

I very much enjoyed going on flybe from LGW - NCL last year.Small plane allocated seat, enthusiastic staff.

[greywind]

As far as I'm aware, Monarch never re-opened the online recruitment after the initial rush and are working through the applications received still.
Everyone I know who has had jobs / interviews didn't use the online system and I've yet to find someone who isn't still just "active application" on the online site.

I've also heard from someone at Monarch that courses up until April next year are being filled and there is an initial number of 90 FOs with some further on going recruitment planned after this - I can only assume that will be from the current pool of applicants.

[mesh]

Still interviewing, courses not filled upto April I doubt total number of courses even known yet by head shed. We have given places to type rated, military, turbo prop, CTC I am very pleased to confirm....

[Robert G Mugabe]

I do not understand why Monarch are expanding into a market that is saturated.

Ryan and easyjet are aggressive with costs and competitors.

The public do not differentiate between the likes of easy,Ryanair,monarch or anyone else in Europe on the basis of quality of service. The predominant factors in the decision to fly are cost and convenience. That is where Ryan and easyjet models vary slightly and where Monarch is going to struggle when they try to establish new aircraft on new routes.

Good luck to those who got in.

[OutsideCAS]

Thanks for the replies - was curious to know also if anyone had been sent a "PFO" at all, but appears not. I know of no-one either being binned as yet, so guess the waiting game continues :}

[Alexander de Meerkat]

HPbleed - easyJet are replacing aircraft right now. They have a pile of brand new A320s rolling up and are using them to seamlessly replace their early A319s whilst keeping the total numbers around 204-ish. I am not sure that comparing Ford and Lamborghini products easyJet and Monarch is quite the distinction I would make personally, but there you go! Regarding load factors, I did not quote them because of the summer-oriented operation that Monarch run. I could not initially find the figures beyond March which is why I quoted that month. Having searched deeper into their website here are the last few months:

----------Monarch easyJet
Feb 12---87.17%----87.6%
Mar 12---87.7%-----88.8%
Apr 12----N/A-------89.3%
May 12--81.92%----88.0%
Jun 12---91.52%----89.9%

A very good set of results for both companies, and I would draw nothing from the 'better' figures of previous months that easyJet had. More revealing is that the passenger numbers for Monarch to achieve this steady 80-90% load factor is 626,185 in June but 179,215 in February. The equivalent easyJet figures were 5,434,763 and 3,976,741 respectively. In other words, Monarch hardly operate in the winter - which is a perfectly sound business plan for a bucket and spade company, but not one that easyJet could follow given their emphasis on non-leisure travel. The fascinating statistic is the 24% increase in passengers carried by Monarch compared with the previous year in June - at last they are starting to fight and indeed provide the opportunity to young pilots like yourself to escape the curse of orange living that has become so irksome. I have not the slightest doubt that you are enjoying it more than easyJet, and I can only regret we did not behave more sensibly in an attempt to keep good guys like yourself. Where we differ is whether or not the permanent contract issue can be won. I hugely regret that we did not fight it out this last round as we should have done. The fact is that we blew it, but we can still win it in the next year. I fully understand you and your colleagues need to sort out your immediate futures rather than wait for a change which may never happen - but I do believe it will if we man up for the fight. My issue is the long term future of the company, and only time will tell who was right and who was wrong - in my ideal world we would both be sat happy and delighted for a long time to come. Good luck to you and I hope it turns out to be all you hope it to be.

Sprinkles - I am really at a loss to see how you can think that turning up with 155 hours from CTC and then getting to fly an Airbus with easyJet is the worst career move you ever made. There are literally hundreds of young men and women who have shiny frozen ATPLs and would give their right arm to be in your position. It is a harsh reality that the saturation of the market with low-houred pilots has brought down terms and conditions. Most of your predecessors are guys who did instructor flying for £10/hour, air taxi work, turboprops, night freight etc before ever seeing the inside of a Boeing or an Airbus. You are incredibly fortunate to be able to now leave and get a job with Monarch, BA, Virgin, Cathay or Emirates - you are hardly in a bad position.

[J320]

"I fully understand you and your colleagues need to sort out your immediate futures rather than wait for a change which may never happen."

There is the issue. The noises coming from Hanger 89 are painting an incredibly gloomy picture. Many of us do voice our opinions regarding the long term future of FlexiCrew and we are genuinely concerned about it. Some of us have been told to stop making noises as it is proving unpopular in the Hanger among our leaders. Some of the guys reaching the end of their three years have been told by some managers they will be kept on, told by other managers they may not and told by CTC there's no agreement yet. BALPA believe any fight is an incredibly long one and there is unlikely to be a safe immediate future for easyJet contractors. European contracts have dried up, there will be trickles of movement but nothing on the scale of previous years. There are rumours of incredibly large numbers being laid off this winter (and that is only a rumour). Hours in the summer have reduced massively with many of us flying circa 50 per month in the summer, very few standbys and lots of rest days resulting in extremely low annual salaries (when compared with last year).

Now we are as much to blame as anybody so whilst we have been lead up the garden path, I am not looking for sympathy, indeed I feel guilty. If one compares that situation with the opportunity Monarch provide it isn a no-brainer as to where the better contract is. Stable salary, leave, loyalty, pension, insurances and being treat like a professional pilot.

AdM I will not disagree that easyJet may be a safer place to be should there be more issues to hit the airline industry. Only, though, if one has a permanent contract.

[Sprinkles]

AdM you're right my choice of words were not really very good. In fact I am very grateful for the experience I have gained knowing not many people get to do it. Especially with my hours after training. Alas this has been at a huge financial cost to me and there's no denying I have paid to get where I am. I'm not not proud or happy to have done it this way as 4 years ago cadets were taking on through merit and given perm UK jobs with the TR costs paid for through being bonded to the airline. Not so anymore. :(

Unfortunately the only way to stop cadets doing this now is to stand together as a whole. Cadets need to realise what problems lie ahead for them going down the flexi-crew path (something which I think is becoming more evident as time ticks away). In some respects I think we've all allowed this down grade in T&C's and something drastic needs to be done to stop the rot any further. I don't know what that is though. The only winners have been CTC and eJ.

Only when cadets categorically refuse to go into flexi-crew that the light at the end of the tunnel will appear. Sadly I don't think any guys will because as you say we are so eager for the opportunity many of us fail to see the damage it causes.

Apologies once again for choice of words. I am bloody grateful for my past years service and I'm looking forward to moving up the salary scale.

[bigjarv]

Can anyone share what kind of staff travel Monarch provide for employees?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Since when has CTC's fortunes been a concern of Easy pilots? Shame on you WWW, must rank as one of your more crass statements.


I said that flexi cadets leaving easyJet for other airlines was a win for CTC because it is. They get to sell another replacement unit from their huge stockpile. That point is neither crass nor shameful. It is true. The context was to make the point that nobody who matters is actually worried, concerned or bothered about flexi cadets leaving.

I have done more than most to point out both the tactical and strategic folly of Wannabes pursuing the CTC style path. Eventually I got bored being comprehensively ignored and being called miserable.

[mesh]

A poorer area for us. Staff travel is not worth any effort and you can better deals with others unfortunately. The few things we have, 20% discount for friends and family, travel card that allows us to travel sby on Monarch flights(tax only to pay). 8 years service you get a free flight, once a year you get 85% Discount on a flight. A lot of flights in school hols are embargoed so you can't use discounts anyway....

[kaikohe76]

Things appear to have changed a little over the years. When I got my first flying job in civil aviation, I was very pleased that the company chose to employ me & I was most grateful for that. The offer of `freebees` & other such like inducements, was a little further down my list. O well, times have changed some what apparently.

[Callsign Kilo]

You can talk until you're blue in the face. It's completely futile. There are hoards of wannabes willing to partake in such schemes and I guess until people are physically unable to access capital, then there always will be. The two largest lo-costs (EZY & FR) show massive comparisons. Poorly remunerated contracts, temporary basing, over-crewing of FOs and henceforth a decline in rostered hours. More seasonal operations and a reduction in growth has shown that prospects down the line (time to command, training positions, permanent contracts) are now dwindling.

This is FACTUAL and if those with the cheque books burning a hole in their pockets stopped for a moment then they would possibly avoid the predicament that they are going to be faced with. If you are banking on the fact that either A) you'll get a few hours and jump ship to the likes of BA, MON or one of the Middle Eastern carriers or B) things will pick up and all this is just a blip then I'd say you'd be faced with the roughly the same odds as becoming one of the hundred millionaires in the UK lottery draw this evening. A few will be lucky but the vast majority will not.

As much as this is a thread dedicated to Monarch and those fortuitous enough to join, it should be used as an example to those eager to join the likes of EZY or FR as cadets. However I'm more than prepared for it to be comprehensively ignored and much like WWW, be accused of being a miserable barsteward.

[Buzz Lightyear]

I've been with Monarch about 22 years now and praise my lucky stars every day so to be.

They're not perfect, in fact I've had a good old gripe recently about the omnishambles that is our IT strategy... but nonetheless, a fantastic employer
who I hope will be around for another 40 odd years. And, if Lugano has the inclination, will be as they could fund the airline out of what they lose down the back of the sofa. (ps all you negatives out there who will dive in to say that the family want out please tell me how you have a window on the collective mind of the Mantegazza family)

Pilot wages and costs are a significant factor, but nothing compared to the interaction of the cost of oil and its hedging/ currency exchange rates and interest rates.. get that right, be efficient, and you can compete with anyone.

[Stone Cold II]

Just for the record in terms of load factors. Load factors mean nothing if you do not know what the yield for each seat is. Monarch or EZY could be selling there seats for £10 each and if they did they would be loss making.

I do not know if Monarch are making a profit or not but to say they have 90% load factor means nothing if they are not making a profit on the seats sold. I could use one of Monarch A330 and fill every seat on it to Malaga and charge 10p per seat and say hey look guys I have 100% load factor but I would be out of business very quickly.

I wish Monarch well as they do offer a decent contract for the new guys. I'm sure they will be around for a few more years yet.

[Artie Fufkin]

Buzz L, the "speculation" comes from the rumour that when the final tranch of the bailout was handed over, Monarch management were allegedly told to make this bailout work and not to expect any more.

And they have now implemented an aggressive expansion plan, that they have brought forward from the planned timing in a greedy attempt to take Baby's capacity. Is this really ideal economic conditions for large scale expansion of an airline? And drachma-geddon is still yet to rip the Mediterranean economy apart.

Their main competitors all have significantly lower costs and much higher brand recognition. The trend is towards consolidation and larger companies dominating.

Without doubt, the entire pilot community wants to see companies like Monarch prosper. It unfortunately doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to see another outcome.

[New T2 Office]

''the "speculation" comes from the rumour that''


and therin lies your problem...........rumour, speculation, etc, etc.............


However as that is the 3rd word of this websites title, I suppose it is appropriate really..........

My only advice is dont believe all the rumours you hear! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[fmgc]

And they have now implemented an aggressive expansion plan, that they have brought forward from the planned timing in a greedy attempt to take Baby's capacity. Is this really ideal economic conditions for large scale expansion of an airline? And drachma-geddon is still yet to rip the Mediterranean economy apart.

This would quite possibly be a massive boon for Monarch and a disaster for EZY & FR.

If Greece and Spain (Monarch's main destinations) pull out of the Euro then they will immediately devalue their currency, making it very cheap for holidays, Monarch's market!!!

Ezy & FR I understand take more money in Euros than they do in Sterling and rely much more on pax originating in the Euro zone. So the break up of the Euro will effect them massively.

And they have now implemented an aggressive expansion plan, that they have brought forward from the planned timing in a greedy attempt to take Baby's capacity.

That is very cynical and completely out of order. Somebody was going to step in, FR & Jet2 tried but were too late. I wonder if the Baby pilots that we are offering jobs to on some of the best T&Cs in the industry would agree with that statement.

Load factors mean nothing if you do not know what the yield for each seat is.

That is a very valid point, and in the past the industry has been selling seats too cheaply and so yields have been awful. Fact is that this summer has seen a significant increase in yields for all airlines, somewhere in the region of 12%.

Plus those load factors mentioned were for a period when ticket prices are almost at their highest (the shoulder months) so yields almost at their highest.

Monarch also do very well on inflight and ancillary sales that the competition doesn't enjoy nearly as much.

[beauport potato man]

Buzz Lightyear

No family as business minded and as savvy as the Mantegazza family will continue to bailout loss making ventures.
We all know they're wealthy but they never got there by funding a load of 'Monarch' like businesses.

[MaxPower2011]

You could also argue that no family as savvy as the Mantegazza would have injected the amounts they did last year if it wasn't a worthwhile investment.

[McBruce]

Only when cadets categorically refuse to go into flexi-crew that the light at the end of the tunnel will appear.

Only when the members inside their highly unionised airline lobby for this practise to be stopped, then light will appear at the end of the tunnel. Asking or waiting for unemployed individuals to unite and refuse a job, then you will be waiting a long time! This can only be stopped from the inside.

[Artie Fufkin]

They have now adopted a scheduled services from the UK to the Mediterranean model, setting themselves against Ryanair, Easy and Jet2. No more competing in the charter market that has seen them do so well over the years.

They can't charge any extra than competitors, but have significantly higher costs. In an industry with wafer thin margins, its never going to work. You can almost hear Alan Sugar sitting in a boardroom saying "basic business principles seem to have gone out the window".

As was said earlier in this thread it seems great being offered old school terms and conditions, but if your competing against O'Leary, they'll be for nothing when the competition has you for breakfast. Remember the first class passenger in Titanic refusing a life jacket, stating he was dressed in his finest and prepared to go down as a gentleman?

[tchaikovsky]

Artie,

Your tone is all too familiar. You have to remember you're a pilot. You fly 737's. You're not a business man, not an economist, not an analyst, not an accountant, not an industry expert. You read the business pages of the newspapers. In fact you have not the foggiest idea as to the internal workings of Monarch Airlines. I've flown with people like you and I have learnt to nod along. You're a know it all and you appear to take pleasure in trying to scare monger people with your ill informed opinions. Why? What are you trying to achieve?

The fact of the matter is Monarch are offering c90 permanent, full time well paid jobs. Who else is offering that opportunity in the UK at the moment.

To all the know it alls like Artie, remember your place.

[student88]

Lovely warm things like allocated seating, sweets, hot meals and bjs from the chief pilot aren't going to stop and airline going bust. I would hate to see them go, lots of friends work for them, but I really wouldn't jump from EZY to MON, even if you paid me.

Sit tight and bite the pillow for as long as you can.

[bigjarv]

Has everyone forgotten the massive contracts that most permanent european easy first officers and captains are on? They are on some of the absolute best in the European industry. Same in Ryanair. What proportion of the workforce is made up of flexi? Any idea? Me either! Put my hat on a large proportion of the workforce are on euro contracts beating Ba and monarch terms and conditions hands down. I don't know the figures and nor do most so can we just stop this pointless chatter!!!

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Had to use FR/BA/EZY/MON for positioning to and from an EU based aircraft.

MON invariably are more expensive but not by anywhere near as much as you'd think, it's also the case that later last minute bookings are much more affordable with MON than anybody else.

Never been on a MON flight which wasn't full.

Last minute positioning on FR for €300 into the EU just makes you feel robbed, Didn't end up going on any other website if MON was something near price wise.

Doesn't take much extra per seat to cover the additional costs with MON and I for one would happily pay it.

[New T2 Office]

Tchaikovsky


Couldn't have put it any better myself.......you've summed up these 'virtual airline bosses' perfectly......its so frustrating wading through their worthless posts to find anything worth reading!!!!

[Alexander de Meerkat]

There is no dispute that Monarch is a great company to work for, but that is not really the issue - long term viability (i.e. a full career for a young man in his mid-20s) is where my doubt lies. I think we all know it is impossible to predict the future in the airline world, and far wiser punters than me have got it seriously wrong. Nonetheless, my own belief is that they cannot compete directly with Ryanair or easyJet on their core routes, but we shall just have to see. I do, however, like the active efforts Monarch are making to expand, and it is good news for the whole industry - I genuinely wise them well.

Sprinkles - please excuse my harsh tone. My excuse is that I was writing at around 3.30am and was worn out! I fully understand why you have made the choice you have and hope it all works out well. I am very frustrated that our own management have created a situation that you felt you needed to leave - it is really inexcusable.

A key element of the discussions in the last few pages has been over the wisdom of easyJet cadets leaving to join Monarch. It has diverged into a discussion about who is doing well and who is not. I have heard the rumours but frankly do not know the whole truth about Monarch's current financial status. I do, however, know how easyJet is doing. For those interested in easyJet's current financial well-being, may I draw your attention to the following:

http://corporate.easyjet.com/~/media/Files/E/Easyjet-Plc-V2/pdf/media/latest-news/2012/ims-q3-2012.pdf

I would humbly suggest that any company coming up with these figures in the current economic environment is doing very well indeed. We all know these things can change very quickly, and no one is crowing about how great easyJet is. Nonetheless, to make the decision to leave a company producing these kind of figures without joining a national carrier is a gutsy move indeed, and not one I would hand-on-heart recommend.

[sk8erboi]

Nonetheless, to make the decision to leave a company producing these kind of figures without joining a national carrier is a gutsy move indeed, and not one I would hand-on-heart recommend.

I strongly disagree. Whilst not having an iron in this fire, bar an application with Mon, one has to wonder which is the best option for the CTC type ezy pilot. Winter is fast approaching, when living becomes more expensive and the typical ezy fo's pay drops massively. Providing they still have a contract at all and haven't become too expensive for their own good.
Where to be? A company that still pays and looks after me, or the one which drops me as soon as I may not be needed/can be replaced by someone cheaper.
You say leaving a company producing these figures is a bad idea. Why? Especially when those figures are being produced by making the right hand seat a figure in the balance sheet, to be exploited for as much profit as possible, at the fiscal and emotional expense of said pilot.
It's not as though it's a real career airline anyway. Not with MAD closing, LIS opening etc. Anyone who thinks they can tough out the next few years for Nirvana at the end of the tunnel is deluded. The other good contracts will be next for the axe.
Anyone on an ezy rip off FO deal would be best served looking after no 1 in the short term. Ezy don't look long term so why should you. You owe it to yourself after all the pain to get where you are now to earn a decent living and be treated like a human being. I bet MON skippers look out for their colleagues and don't just turn a blind eye to any I humane treatment handed down to them. They seem like one of the few decent employers left in the uk.

I expect to now be shouted down saying I must be an ezy reject etc. in advance I'm not.

[NordicMan]

Well said ADM. Once you have a permanent contract with Ezy I don't see where else you would rather go. I try not to get involved in this cadet issue, no one held a gun to their head..

[fade to grey]

Sadly Noone has a crystal ball, but I would take issue that a ' young man in his 20s " would want to spend 40 years at ezy. I'm not sure the lifestyle is sustainable and I would think they would want to see some if the world before they retire.
There are very few "full career " airlines these days. I would think only BA would fit that bill.

[Burpbot]

AGAIN!!!! This is a monarch recruitment thread, I have no wish to hear about the immoral practices at easyjet et al or any wish to work for them!

Hence reading the page titled MONARCH!!!!

Is this page not moderated anymore???

[Burpbot]

Does anyone have any relevant information?

I mean about the current state of play with recruitment at MONARCH?

[Serenity]

I see the Jet2 thread says big expansion next year.
Will the Monarch expansion keep up??

[greywind]

Apparently recruitment is still going on, working through all the applications with another round of interviews to be scheduled in September.