Procrastination on Syria

[El_Presidente]

Well, seems like the world is still content to sit on their arses as Assad continues to murder his people.

Confirmation now that civilians and children are being deliberately targetted. This tagged onto the reports that children are being kidnapped; interrogated; tortured and having their throats cut and testicles chopped off...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18221461 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18221461)

Sick sick times.

On a bedroom floor dozens of little children lie dead, their arms and legs strewn over one another. Many of their eyes are still open, bearing a look of shock and fright. They are all covered with blood and obviously suffered terrible deaths.

A girl, who is perhaps seven years old, wearing a headscarf and pink diamante belt, lies face to face in death with a much younger boy.

Another little boy in a yellow jumper lies with his arms stretched out, almost cradling the head of the girl next to him. Blood covers both their faces and soaks their hair.

[NutLoose]

Trouble is he has now backed himself up against a wall, he has nowhere to run, so has to now play the hand he has... justice one hopes will catch up to him and his cronies, and when they are brought to justice, what happens, nothing compared to what they have carried out to keep themselves in power, myself I would drop them off in the centre of the town the kids came from, justice would truly be served. Words fail me how people can do this to each other.

Sadly the truth is the world would never have even bothered with the likes of Libya either if it wasn't for a three lettered word... OIL

[Grimweasel]

His cronies including our former PM Bliar too!!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Murder of innocents/children is, officially at least, as abhorrent to Muslims as it is to the rest of us. They object violently to us involving ourselves in their affairs, as we object to interference in ours. Without oil and not being a major breeding ground for terrorists, Syria has no legitimate interest to us. Morally without doubt, but not under International Law. Read the ICJ terms. The most we can do is try to get them kicked out of the UN, which will fail by Veto.

Assad's dad killed even more 20 odd years ago; we did nothing. Goodbye moral high ground.

Invading Iraq blew The West's legitimacy*, probably for the next 30 years, Thanks George and Tony.

It also killed between 100,000 and 1,000,000 civilians. Our own Lancet puts the war and knock-on violence civilian deaths at over 600,000. Assad has killed around 15,000 by most estimates. "We didn't mean to" doesn't justify 40 times as many violent deaths by us being 'OK'.

The other Arab / Muslim nations have easily enough Armed Forces to depose Assad. They choose not to. End of.

Sorry to be blunt. I don't like it any more than you, but that's the size of it.


* The UN Secretary General said it was illegal in Sep 2004.

[walter kennedy]

Not to mention Fallujah (when the yanks went ape), numerous forays into Gaza (IDF), and Janin (while the world was distracted by the WTC same day) - oh, and just who is doing these acts becomes even more disgusting when the possibility of proxy groups is considered (eg MEK trained by Mossad in Iran).
It's a dirty business - we should not rush headlong in the direction we are being pointed without getting the whole picture - oh that we had a good intelligence service that was acting purely in the interests of the British people.

[Melchett01]

Just bear in mind that if the West does anything and the UK decides to conduct a NEO, President Assad and his wife are eligible for extraction by UK forces thanks to his wife being a British citizen of Syrian origin.

Funny old game this international politics isn't it.

[High_Expect]

In light if recent events could we not just withdraw her citizenship? Or put a warrant out for her arrest if she re enters the UK?

[Lower Hangar]

William Hague will make a strongly worded speech ( removing his baseball cap first)

[4thright]

During the run up and early days of the Libyan business last year, Gadaffi and his mob were formally accused by the ICJ. Why in the light of evidence has this not yet been proposed by any of our huffing and puffing politicians. Something inexcusable seems to be preventing anyone in the West from even suggesting this should happen.:ugh:

[El_Presidente]

Removing Assad and stabilising Syria would certainly be a cause I'd be more than willing to sign back up for. I know life is not as simple as this. But in my relatively short time on this planet I have seen the international community fail too many ordinary people, too often.

Bosnia was a cluster for the first 5 years.
Rwanda wasn't even entertained.
Sierra Leone only became palatable once we cut deals for diamond mining.
Somalia was, politically at least, a half-hearted attempt.

It seems Syria will be added to that list also. It makes me feel physically ill when I contemplate the suffering of these children and their families; suffering which we seem powerless or unwilling to bring to an end.

[RedhillPhil]

William Hague will make a strongly worded speech ( removing his baseball cap first)

That'll really get Assad worried..........

[Rosevidney1]

If we attempt military action (wiser heads should prevent this happening) will we get any credit or gratitude from the suffering peoples once regime change has happened? I thought not. It could well be a case of 'out of the frying pan and into the fire'. Who will be running the show and calling the shots? Any money on the Muslim Brotherhood?

[Talk Split]

I'd like to know just what everyone thinks we (the British Military) could actually do?

We are completely fixed by Afghanistan not to mention the ridiculous commitment to a certain over-hyped sports day coming up imminently. The cupboard is absolutely empty folks and we would probably get our arses kicked anyhow.

Believe me, unfortunately I know.

[Thunderpants]

As appauling and horrific the situation most certainly is, the terrible truth is that all assets are severely stretched to say the least. The sad fact is, we are in no condition to get involved in yet another Middle Eastern conflict.

Despite the shortfalls of personell and equipment I have no doubt that if asked to go, the boys and girls would step up to the plate and serve with the courage and distinction that we have all come to expect of them.

But would it serve the greater good, or just make the situation even worse? (and yes, unfortunately, it could get alot worse).

[dead_pan]

Why doesn't Saudi sort it out with all that lovely military hardware we've supplied them? Or is it already being used in Bahrain??..

Of course, Uncle Sam can't get involved because the Israelis actually support Assad. Its a funny old world.

[Turkeyslapper]

Why doesn't Saudi sort it out with all that lovely military hardware we've supplied them?


Probably because it may require some effort. Or I guess they could get their expats to do it for them :E

[Melchett01]

Of course, Uncle Sam can't get involved because the Israelis actually support Assad

Really? I'm not even sure without checking that they have managed to establish diplomatic relations between the 2 countries.

If memory serves, the Israelis launched their strike against the nascent Syrian nuclear capability in about 2008ish and before that, in the Lebanon - Israeli war, Syria threatened to get involved in support of Hezbollah. Plus, Syria is probably Iran's only realy ally in the region, so all in all, hardly a recipe for a beautiful friendship.

You might find that Israel would be prepared to accept a small number of genuine refugees in a controlled manner - far better that than struggling to cope with an influx of all sorts across the borders. But I hardly think that managing a situation equates to supporting them.

[pontifex]

I am afraid I agree 100% with Fox3. Also, I don't suppose too large a section of our citizens give a flying ---- as long as the price of petrol doesn't go up any more and the telly keeps working.

[Liam Gallagher]

More like inability.

Without US involvement, anything but the most basic military involvement is simply not possible. The US, of the Obama or Romney flavour, is highly unlikely to get involved in any "nation building" or "regime change" ever again. To understand the reasons why you only need to read some of the hysterical posts on this thread.

Put simply, if you wish to make to make an omelette, you have to break eggs. The prevailing voices all wish to eat the omelette, but scream at the prospect of eggs being broken. They scream at the chefs for breaking civilian eggs, when you cannot differentiate between military and civilian eggs. Scream at the cost of the eggs. Scream that the chef has been motivated by payments from JP Morgan, Oil Companies, revenge the threat to the chef's father and other such unsubstantiated nonsense. Can you be surprised when the chef says, "make your own fecking omelette"?

Perhaps, Russia and China will demonstrate how to effect "regime change" without the death of civilians. I look forward to that.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Pontifex is right about gas and TV's. Apposite for a Roman pseudonym to be commenting on Bread and Circuses.:ok:
Whilst delayed at Miami Airport in March 2003, I had time to note that day's 'Miami Herald' had twice the column inches on the effect on the price of gas of the Invasion of Iraq as it did on the war itself.


Every society gets the democracy it deserves.

[walter kennedy]

daedpan
<<Why doesn't Saudi sort it out with all that lovely military hardware we've supplied them? Or is it already being used in Bahrain??..>>
Good point - what's going on in Bahrain is real bad - but the main media doesn't make so much of it like it does for Syria.

[racedo]

Russians quite bluntly out it that there is no evidence that the women and children shot in the head were done so by Syrian armed forces, not like irregualars aided and supplied with personnel from Sunni govts would cause mayhem..................oh wait there was Iraq wasn't there where Saudi's supplied them.

[langleybaston]

Procrastination?

Why the assumption that "somebody, [perhaps us, or U.S. or whatever], should do something".

Yes it is dreadful but surely its an Arab problem ......... any outside intervention is resented for ever.

I think Hague is doing exactly the right thing, by attempting to lean on Russia. Any suggestion that we should do more risks lives, treasure and would create further enmity.

I hope the regime is toppled but would have little expectation for their successors to be much better. That's the way of the Arab world.

And sod the moral high ground, more like shifting sands.

[dead_pan]

melchett - sorry, 'support' may have been too strong a word. They have been somewhat circumspect in supporting opposition movements in neighbouring countries. It seems they prefer to have hard men in power in these countries to keep their populations in check and stick to the various peace deals.

It always amazes me why all these Muslim radicals don't leap on a plane and fly off to the likes of Syria to fight the real oppressors of their kin, rather than continuing to rage against the West. Is there such a thing as a champagne fundamentalist?

[pontifex]

Fox3. The phrase "bread and circusses" has repeatedly crossed my mind in the past few weeks but in relation to the Olympic circus and the euro debacle.

[NutLoose]

It always amazes me why all these Muslim radicals don't leap on a plane and fly off to the likes of Syria to fight the real oppressors of their kin, rather than continuing to rage against the West. Is there such a thing as a champagne fundamentalist?

I don't believe they will get social security in Syria...

Bit like martyrdom, if it was so good and the Virgins so inviting, how comes their leadership are not champing at the bit to go first.

[500N]

As much as what is occuring in Syria is shocking to say the least, maybe some of them, especially the women see what happened in Eygpt and
decided that maybe it wasn't so bad under the old regime.

Women in general seem to be better off under the old regimes.
After all, how can Radical Muslim's claim that passing laws
about sex with dead wives being legal really improves the situation ??????

Arab Spring turns into Spring nightmare.

[Lonewolf_50]

Not sure who had the guns in this latest item to catch international attention, but NPR (Public Broadcasting in the USA) cited UN observers as attributing the massacre to "rogue militia" rather than regular forces.

Not that it matters all that much, but someone on the ground seems to be able to parse "sides" in this matter.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

'Hard men' who do what we want. Hmmm.....

It's not just a case of not wanting to be 'involved'. The local hard men are actually better at it than we are. Western Government thinking appears to be...

Worst case - No government. Tribal Areas as a terrorist base. Somali piracy, etc

Middle worst - we kill 600,000 civilians in 24 months; Iraq.

Best Worst - Saddam kills 600,000 in 24 years. But 500,000 of those were volunteers in a war we supported. There were Iraqis going through Valley at the same time as me.

But do we approve of the Pakistanis imposing Government on Tribal Areas that basically don't want it? Self-Determination is just about the fundamental principal of international politics; or should we hand the Falklands back?

I have no quick answers, but current thinking seems to make Best Worst progress steadily to Worst.

Ultimately, we need to be a bit more honest. Then we can start asking our politicians to do the same.

[Lonewolf_50]

Fox, is there any reason that the Pashtun should not get their own homeland, as the Bosniacs and Croations did with massive international assistance?
How about the Kurds? I note that some years back some Jewish folk got together and made one, also with considerable international assistance. How about the Slovenes? They get to have their own homeland. Why not the Basques, who'd maybe like some self determination? Why not the Pashtun?

Who makes these decisions?

I believe we should be told.

[vulcanised]

Trouble is, you just can't rely on the 'good old' BBC any more.........


5RKj9dNVdF8&feature=player_embedded#!

[ORAC]

Not sure who had the guns in this latest item to catch international attention, but NPR (Public Broadcasting in the USA) cited UN observers as attributing the massacre to "rogue militia" rather than regular forces.


Torygraph: Syrian army 'using children as human shields' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9325965/Syrian-army-using-children-as-human-shields.html)

Syrian troops are using children as young as nine-years-old as human shields, forcing them to ride on top of government tanks to deter opposition attacks, the UN has stated.

:suspect::suspect:

[500N]

It just proves again that the UN has double standards,
showing great concern about Syria and Syrian children
but not quite as much concern or action over African
war lords and children abducted to fight.

[Courtney Mil]

Yes, double standards indeed, but at least they're being even handed by doing absolutely nothing worthwhile about either situation.

[racedo]

Syrian troops are using children as young as nine-years-old as human shields, forcing them to ride on top of government tanks to deter opposition attacks, the UN has stated.

And they visited the country NOT but relied on a few claims...............funny how this was also claimed in Libya.

[Lonewolf_50]

500N, I think I've seen more than one comminuque from the UN about Child Soldiers since the 90's ... not all stories, and not all utterances, can cover all topics.

Security Council Tightens Sanctions Regime on Somalia, Eritrea, Extending Mandate of Monitoring Group for 12 Months (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10348.doc.htm)

One example.

See also UNSC resolution 1261 of the year 1999, seen here in .pdf format.
http://www.undemocracy.com/S-RES-1261(1999).pdf

If you be interested, you can also look into UNSCR 1314.

That said, Courtney seems to be right about what is and can be done about that state of affairs: beyond a harshly worded letter, mostly BFA.

[jindabyne]

Quite. Truly appalling, but quite.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Human shields - Geneva conventions.

It appears the UN believes it is far more important for governments to sign up for things than it is for governments to stick to them.

Euro - expenditure rules

etc.

When was the last time a government actually got chucked out of something for breaking the conditions?

The UN is going the way of the League of Nations, and we all know where that lead.

Lonewolf - I don't have the answers, but I'm reaching the point where I'm going to declare my own homeland.

[500N]

Fox3

Agree to an extent "It appears the UN believes it is far more important for governments to sign up for things than it is for governments to stick to them."


One thing they do seem to push Gov'ts to stick to and implement is working against civilian ownership of guns as part of the trade in small arms push.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Totalitarian regimes pushed to restrict civilian gun ownership...

might as well push children to eat ice cream on hot days.

[WhatsaLizad?]

Not to mention Fallujah (when the yanks went ape), numerous forays into Gaza (IDF), and Janin (while the world was distracted by the WTC same day) - oh, and just who is doing these acts becomes even more disgusting when the possibility of proxy groups is considered (eg MEK trained by Mossad in Iran).
It's a dirty business - we should not rush headlong in the direction we are being pointed without getting the whole picture - oh that we had a good intelligence service that was acting purely in the interests of the British people.

Dearest walter kennedy,

My fellow yanks did go ape in Fallujah, but it would seem they avoided mass rapes, torture and slaughter of women and children as well as the combatants themselves, at least somewhat unavoidable slaughter. I'm sure the operation and it's participants weren't perfect, but in our US society today, we would have heard about it if we behaved like a modern day Eizengruppen.

As for Janin, it is spelled Jenin, and while I have no apologies or real knowledge of the situation, the flattening of that town occurred 1 year after September 11, not the same day.

We are in agreement that a countries citizens should have a clear understanding of the issues involved, Kuwaiti babies getting tossed out of incubators by Iragi soldiers does ring a bell, getting the real story is the tough part.

[walter kennedy]

Whatsa..
I was not referring to the "Battle" of Jenin that went on early April 2002 - I was referring to the major incursion that occurred simultaneously with 911.
If the timing was intended so as to use WTC event as a distraction then it certainly worked in your case.
Like a lot of people, I was listening to the radio that night (Western Australia time) for more developments on the WTC attack: the BBC then reported the Jenin operation; the commentators sounded perplexed - one said something like "Could this have been a knee-jerk reaction to the WTC attack?" - the other replied something like "No, the tanks and bulldozers had been mustering for 3 days and then waited for about 10 hours, beginning the operation when news of the WTC attacks came through".
Do you really want to trade notes on Fallujah?

[parabellum]

Good point - what's going on in Bahrain is real bad - but the main media doesn't make so much of it like it does for Syria.


The sad part about Bahrain is that the troubles there are grossly over hyped in the media, as the folks who live there will tell you. Great shame that not only the media but, it appears, the British foreign office are unaware of Bahrain's history. The island is claimed by Iran as Iranian territory and the Iranians have, to a greater or lesser extent, been stirring trouble there for at least fifty years to my knowledge. Initially they would smuggle agitators in by Dhow who would go among the Shia villages spreading discontent, often the characters were picked by the security forces, jailed for a few months for illegal entry, then slung out. When the Gulf war started in 1991 CNN gave the dissidents all the opportunities to publicise their cause they could have wished for and Iranian TV became receivable in Bahrain. Now, with the 'Arab Spring' uprisings they have once more taken advantage of media interest in the Middle East and have been rabble rousing, all the time aided and abetted by the Iranians, funny how this seems to slip past all the commentators. It would help if people paid a visit to Bahrain and lived there a while before telling the world what a terrible place it is.

Fallujah: Widely written that the behaviour of the Americans was attributed to the atrocities they discovered that had been perpetrated by the occupants of Fallujah on captured, tortured and murdered US servicemen.

Kuwait: After all the dust had settled it was admitted by the Kuwaiti government that the babies in incubators stories were not true but had been deliberately put about to increase sympathy to the Kuwait people. What doesn't get talked about so much is the number of foreign maids that were left in Kuwait by their employers, without any documentation and who the Iraqis then took to Iraq, some managed to get home after the resumption of hostilities in 2003, many are still listed as 'missing'.

[walter kennedy]

Parabellum
<< ... behaviour of the Americans was attributed to the atrocities they discovered that had been perpetrated by the occupants of Fallujah on captured, tortured and murdered US servicemen.>>
A man of your calibre should surely acknowledge the circumstances that led up to this local conflict.
First though, you were referring to the contractors who were shot to death in their vehicles? Granted their bodies were treated disrespectfully but then there was a great deal of hatred for such contractors (remember video clips of some tossing grenades casually and shooting indiscriminately at innocent civs from their vehicles?).
Now, after the toppling of Saddam, Fallujah was not immediately hostile to Americans and, thanks to good community government, was stable and functional much as we are hoping that the whole of Iraq may be like some day - however, the Americans stomped in and caused much upset - the resultant street protests were dealt with so brutally as to make the Syrian government look like it is using kid gloves.

[ORAC]

Not sure where they're being deployed from.

I do remember back in the 1970s the they had a permanent presence moored at the "Cyprus Buoy" south of Larnaca that the aircraft going back from firing on the banner used to beat up. Supposedly it had enough armoured vehicles and marines to reach and evacuate the embassy in Nicosia in the event of any problems.

I would imagine the size of the Russian embassy in Damascus would need two ships worth to evacuate all the personnel, documents and equipment they couldn't destroy.

Torygraph: Home»News»World News»Middle East»SyriaRussia 'sending warships to Syria' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9338572/Russia-sending-warships-to-Syria.html)

Russia is preparing to send two amphibious assault ships to the Syrian port of Tartus according to the Interfax news agency.

The move is seen as an attempt to ensure the safety of Russian nationals stationed at the strategic naval base Moscow operates on Syria's Mediterranean coast.

An unidentified officer confirmed that "Two major amphibious ships – The Nikolai Filchenkov and The Tsezar Kunikov – are preparing to be dispatched to Tartus outside of their schedule."

It is believed the two ships will be carrying a large group of marines and could be used to evacuate Russian citizens and property. There has been no official confirmation of the report from the navy or the defence ministry.

The deployment of the two ships is a sure sign of the deterioration of the situation in Syria as the country descends into all-out civil war..............

[lj101]

Syrian fighter jet pilot 'defects to Jordan' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9346491/Syrian-fighter-jet-pilot-defects-to-Jordan.html)


Brave decision.

[FODPlod]

Poor defence knowledge at the Telegraph again. It's probably a sub-editor's fault but the aircraft in the photo (http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02254/russian-plane-mig_2254864b.jpg) isn't at all similar to a MiG-21!

[GrahamO]

This is why nobody will do anything most of the time.

The Guardian Blue print for Freedom of the People

1. Guardian reports oppression of people in country X
2. Guardian readers demand action now.
3. UN says no mandate, no consensus
4. Guardian readers incensed at loss of human life - demand action
5. Governments, tired of the wet lefties marching on the streets, put sanctions on country X
6. Guardian complains about sanctions not working.
7. Countries put even tougher sanctions on and consider invasion
8. Guardian readers object to warmongering by other countries and march on the streets demanding peace
9. Country X wonders who the Guardian readers are and why they aren't here with guns actually doing something useful.
.
.
.
199. Country is invaded under a UN resolution
200. First Guardian "Stop the War campaign"
201. First person hurt/injured/killed
202. Guardian demand return of military and a cease fire
203. Locals in Country X wonder whose side the Guardian readers are on
204. War continues, incumbent regime collapses, victory assured
205. Locals start reprisals against regime leadership - embarrassed silence from Guardian readers
206. Locals demand money to rebuild country
.
.
.
250. Money provided and locals spend it on weapons and building a tribal structure with warlords all over
251. First peacekeeper killed by locals while trying to stop corruption
252. Guardian readers demand to see the evidence that an invasion was justified
253. Guardian readership demand war reparations
254. Local demand repayments for the damage done to the country in feeing it of (the original) tyranny.
.
.
.
300 Developed countries think, scr*w the lot of them and pull out, leaving them a total lawless mess, Ad nauseum.
.
.
.
301. Some one figures out that if we ignore step 199 to 300, the outcome is just the same and a darn sight cheaper and who cares what the hypocritical Guardian readers think - the locals in Country X don't so why should the UK ?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

GrahamO :D:D:D

Nice to see some sarcasm with real effort put into it.

One wonders what they are Guardians of? There own egos as far as I can tell.

[NutLoose]

Fodplod, they were only 8 out... :p

[parabellum]

Well said GrahamO!:ok:

[Melchett01]

Why should we intervene in Syria?

Why should we not look to the Arab world - who are quite happy to criticize the Western world for "imperialist crusader tendancies" when we try to do the right thing - to sort their own house out for once?

Just a thought. And before people start arguing that it is the moral thing to do, I would ask just whose morals would Western intervention satisfy? I forget which school of philosophy subscribes to the theory that individuals only ever do something because it is in their interests, including making the individual in question feel good. But looking at the way Iraq is going as an example, just what would Western intervention in Syria actually achieve other than salving the Western conscience?

And no, intervention wouldn't stop the general repression that seems to exist in one way shape or form regardless of flag flown, party name or presidential title in that region. Like the Russian revolution in 1918, all it would likely achieve is to replace one repressive regime with another.

[bcgallacher]

Any person who has spent any time in the Middle East will have come to the conclusion that the concepts of democracy and respecting the majority etc. are completely alien to the region.As far as the Syrian situation is concerned if Assad is removed he will simply be replaced by another vicious dictator. I spent many years working in the region and was told very early on that the Arab philosophy was that he had his foot on your neck or you had your foot on his.
Not a single British soldier should be put in harms way under any pretext of humanitarian principles - as in past and present efforts the people we try to help will turn on us in an instant.

[westernhero]

Poor defence knowledge at the Telegraph again. It's probably a sub-editor's fault but the aircraft in the photo isn't at all similar to a MiG-21!

The Russians are no better :*


Pilot who defected Syria on MiG-21 fighter jet granted asylum in Jordan &mdash; RT (http://www.rt.com/news/pilot-mi-25-jet-granted-402/)


milo

[Lonewolf_50]

Looks like the game is on now, as news reports are that a Turkish F-4, over international waters, was shot down by Syrian air defense.

There seems to be some question over "35NM limit" and internationally agreed "12 nm limit" which reminds me of a certain mad colonel in Libya in the 80's. Asserting a longer territorial limit didn't turn out all that well for him, did it?

Assad ought to consider that bit of history when the US Sixth Fleet, aka NATO's StrikeForceSouth (or whatever they call it nowadays) happen to still be an on call force.

Mind you, I don't think the Turks needs NATO help for this one, I suspect they are up to a punitive smack down on their own merits.

Get some popcorn, this film might be very interesting.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Hi,

Just a sidenote : a picture of a MiG-21, often presented as "the" defector syrian MiG, is shown by many media those days.

Said picture is of an egyptian MiG, in Louxor, february 2010:
View topic - Egyptian MiGs - Luxor 24/02/2010 (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&p=439028)

[ORAC]

Russian helicopter shipment heading back to Syria: Ifax (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/russian-helicopter-shipment-heading-back-to-syria-ifax.aspx?pageID=238&nID=23912&NewsCatID=359)

A ship carrying Russian helicopters to Syria, which turned back after its insurance was cut, is expected to resume its journey accompanied by at least one other vessel, Interfax reported today, citing a military source.
The report is likely to reignite international criticism of Russia's arms deliveries to Syria which U.S. officials have called reprehensible and the Arab League has said should be stopped.

"A military-diplomatic source in Moscow told Interfax that (the ship) will go from Murmansk to Syria. According to his information the ship should travel under escort," the news agency reported.

The ship Alaed, which entered the Russian port of Murmansk on Sunday to change its flag to the Russian Standard, will not be accompanied by military vessels, the source said, speaking on condition of anonymity. The report did not say how the ship had resolved its insurance problems or what difference the flag change would make.........

[Melchett01]

Would that be the Russian helicopter shipment that is actually a number of aircraft that had been sent back to Russia for repair a long time before all this nonsense started and is therefore simply part of a completely legal and above board contract?

Now I don't know the exact numbers of aircraft on board, but I strongly suspect it is a small number of the overall total in the Syrian ORBAT, and there will be plenty sitting in hangars somewhere. From the Regime's perspective, all the temporary delay of the return of these aircraft is likely to achieve is a bit more effort to wheel some more out of the sheds and prepare them. And then you still have the fixed wing fleet to contend with.

The harsh truth of the matter is that after the politicians have once again singularly failed in the UN (their success in Libya largely contributing to current Russian stuborness) - on top of their repeated failures to sort the constant stream of international economic crises - once again shows their rather ineffectual colours in their true light. This ship turns round, goes back to home port and if I were a betting man, arranges cover via some Russian government scheme and heads back, this time almost untouchable courtesy of Moscow. It's just another attempt by the politicians to salve their own consciences, to show the world that they are doing something. But in reality it's activity rather than achievement.

[Lonewolf_50]

Aha, reflagged as Russian, and then off to do business. Hadn't realized that it may not have been operating under Russian flag.

Sounds a bit like reflagging Kuwaiti tankers in the Persian Gulf a few decades ago, yes? :E

Good fun!

[walter kennedy]

Funny how we spend so much time debating Syria where the media direct us to look while ignoring South Africa where so many people of similar stock and culture as ourselves have been brutally murdered in recent years.

[racedo]

Wonder will France demand a no arms supply deal just like Libya until they caught dropping weapons.............

[Heathrow Harry]

Walter K -" ignoring South Africa where so many people of similar stock and culture as ourselves have been brutally murdered in recent years.

are you a Zulu or a Matabele then????

I think you;ll find most of the murdering in the RSA over the last 50 years was done by white folk

[parabellum]

I think you;ll find most of the murdering in the RSA over the last 50 years was
done by white folk

Really? I read somewhere thjat as many as three thousand white folk, mainly farmers, had been killed in recent years.

BARBAROUS KILLING OF WHITE PEOPLE IN SOUTH AFRICA (http://praag.co.uk/news/southern-africa/577-barbarous-killing-of-white-people-in-south-africa.html)

[GreenKnight121]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the accusations of the remnant of the white superiority movement responsible for the horror that was Apartheid.


Note that they fall back on statements made by Mandela decades ago when the whites were killing the blacks in the hundreds of thousands without prosecution to try to support their current claims.

This is hardly an honest look at what Mandela has stood for AND DONE since the collapse of the white-controlled racially divided government that held the blacks in virtual servitude.



I am sure that there ARE some incidents, and that some government officials have neglected their duties in that regard... but I'll need far more than the rants of people who want a return to the pre-1990 South Africa in order to believe that black-on-white violence in SA is anywhere near that bad... or is being ignored by the government on a systematic basis.

[Lonewolf_50]

The topic is Syria, the attention to be paid to issues in South Africa may warrant a separate thread for focus on that topic. Agreed? Each area has its own peculiarities and potential impact on neighbors, or those further afield.

[walter kennedy]

I thought that this thread was pushing for action on Syria - I posted that note on RSA as an example of disastrous regime change (as if Afghanistan and Iraq were not enough) - RSA was a powerful, vigorous, and functional state which, with gradual change, held the best future for all South Africans.
Perhaps this link may serve to get the real picture over of the hell that is developing there:

The Truth About South Africa: How many blacks were killed during Apartheid? (http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/how-many-blacks-were-killed-during.html?m=1)

[ORAC]

Asia Times: Russia drags Turkish farmers into Syria front line (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/NG10Ag01.html)

MOSCOW - A century ago the Ottomans understood not to press the Russians in close encounters; the Turks are slow learners. After several recent episodes in which the Turkish armed forces have attempted to interfere with Russian vessels delivering cargo to Syria, the Russians have now delivered the message that Turkish cargoes headed for Russia may be stopped altogether.

The subtlety of this message has yet to be detected by the Anglo-American war media. They are still blustering over the message the Syrians delivered when they used Russian-made cannons to shoot down an American-made Turkish spy plane over Syrian territory on June 22.

Six days later, on June 28, the Russian government's food safety and quarantine service Rosselkhoznadzor (RSN) issued an announcement disclosing that it had detected 33 cases of infestation in Turkish exports to Russia of fruits and vegetables. The detection had reportedly taken place over the previous six months, possibly longer. The pests were identified in the official announcement as "the American white moth and the western (California) flower thrip".

RSN said it had "appealed to the General Directorate of Protection and Control of the Turkish Ministry of Food Agriculture and Livestock to take urgent measures to ensure full compliance with Russian and international phytosanitary requirements for the regulated supply of Turkish goods to Russia." Then followed the warning of a trade embargo. "As you know, in 2005 Rosselkhoznadzor was forced to introduce restrictive measures on imports of Turkish plant products due to the discovery of systemic [infestation] in the quarantine facilities in Russia."

The RSN announcement might have identified the pests by their common English or Latin names - the fall webworm or Hyphantria cunea, as the moth is known, and the western flower thrip, Frankliniella occidentalis. But RSN probably wasn't intending a reminder of the entomological history according to which the insects were native to the US and migrated from there to Europe. Explicitly naming the insects as American, however, appears to have been intended to convey the larger point - by relying on American infestation of the political and military sort, going to war against Syria, and imposing an armed cordon around its supply lines, Turkey is putting at risk its trade with Russia. The Turkish generals may enjoy their warmaking; Turkish farmers may not.........

[randyrippley]

theres a fuller version of that at RUSSIA TO SHOOT DOWN TURKEY (http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-to-shoot-down-turkeys-billion-dollar-fruit-and-vegetable-trade-in-retaliation-for-interference-with-russian-shipping-bound-for-syria-2012-7)

It goes on to say
"Turkish customs data show that this is a particularly sensitive time of the year for the Turks to appreciate a Russian threat to shoot down Turkish strawberries, pomegranates, cherries, tomatoes and peppers. That’s because the value of Turkish exports to Russia, all products, in the five months to May 31 has been running at a record level – $2.6 billion so far, with more than $6.2 billion possible by year’s end. If achieved, that would be higher than the $6 billion value reached last year, and in 2008. In between, the value of Turkish exports sank as low as $2.5 billion in the recession year of 2009.
Russia ranks the third largest of Turkey’s export markets, behind Germany and the UK; it is roughly equal with Italy. An estimated 20% of the value of Turkish exporsto Russia is generated by fruits and vegetables; for Turkish strawberries and tomatoes, Russia is the leading buyer."

[racedo]

War is economic...................always has been, always will be, easy to dress up as something else but its always economic.

[pr00ne]

Was the Falklands economic? Northern Ireland? The Napoleonic Wars? The Iran Iraq war?

The world is not as black and white as you think.

[racedo]

Was the Falklands economic? Northern Ireland? The Napoleonic Wars? The Iran Iraq war?

The world is not as black and white as you think.

Yup .................
1.) Fishing rights and potentially Oil

2.) Most definitely as was response by Artificial NI statelet to minority population seeking equality i.e. reduction in economic sectarian power of majority that was starting fuel

3.) Napoleonic - most definitely was

[TEEEJ]

Russian warships are sent to Syria

Northern Fleet (NF) destroyer Admiral Chabanenko and three Russian amphibious assault ships left NF Main Base Severomorsk on July 10. The high official from Russian Ministry of Defence told Central Navy Portal.

Three amphibious assault ships transport Marine Corps submits on-board. Baltic Fleet guard frigat Yaroslav Mudry and auxiliary ships, based in Baltiysk, will join Admiral Chabanenko later. According to information available to Central Navy Portal, naval ships move into the Mediterranean Sea, into Syria water area.

À crew member from one of the ships confirmed the information. He also noticed, that the three-months mission in the Mediterranean Sea for Admiral Chabanenko and three Russain amphibious assault ships was planned in advance.

Recall that in 2012 Russian warships called at Tartus port many times. To replenish supplies, destroyer Admiral Chabanenko, frigate Ladny, and tanker Lena, being deployed with the Russian Navy's carrier group in the Mediterranean, visited the port in Jan 2012. Aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov and rescue tug Nikolai Chiker were anchored off the Tartus port then.

Russian warships are sent to Syria (http://rusnavy.com/news/newsofday/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=15479)

[Lonewolf_50]

Good news.

You will note that back in about 2007, more US ships were sent to the Persian Gulf, and some alarmists (Paul Craig Roberts for one) decided that this meant war, not saber rattling.

So, what's Russian for saber rattling? :E

Play on.

[TEEEJ]

The following Russian Navy vessels passed through the Bosphorus.

11th July

Destroyer Smetlivy = Call sign RFH70

10th July

Caesar Kunikov (Amphibious Landing Ship) = Call sign RGZ58
Nikolay Filchenkov (Amphibious Landing Ship)
Shakhtar Tug = Call sign RMUW or RCJE
SB-5 Okhtenskiy Class Tug = Call sign RMUW or RCJE

Citing Greek military sources, Greek media reported on Tuesday, that four Russian warships are sailing through the Aegean Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean. Two amphibious ships from the Russian Black Sea Fleet, the CAESAR KUNIKOV and the NIKOLAI FILCHENKOV, and two tug-boats SHAKHTAR and OKHTENSKY passed through the Turkish Straits this morning and were currently south of the Imvros Island.

According to Greek defencenet.gr portal, the Russian ships will be sailing the Aegean Sea and are expected to exit Greek waters in the dawn of Wednesday via the Karpathos-Rhodes strait.

Greek Media: Russian Warships Entered the Aegean Sea on Syria Mission - Keep Talking Greece (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/07/10/greek-media-russian-warships-entered-the-aegean-sea-on-syria-mission/)

The only vessel sending regular Morse weather traffic is RCJE (Probably an Auxiliary and likely to be one of the Tugs). The others vessels are active in Morse but only sending encrypted HF links.

8345 Kilohertz, 11 July, 18 GMT

RCV DE RCJE 11181 99368 10266 22242 @ 1819Z

36.8N 26.6E Heading South at 6-10 Knots

Map Link (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=36.8N+26.6E&hl=en&ll=35.737595,27.982178&spn=6.017712,13.392334&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=6.049693,18.28125&t=m&z=7/)

Just a quick snippet. I won't post further Morse Code weather movements as the Black Sea vessels will probably transit to Tartus, Syria.

[ORAC]

Russian Ship Carrying Helicopters Sails Again For Syria (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1409/russian_ship_carrying_helicopters_sails_again_for_syria)

[TEEEJ]

Looks like Northern and Baltic Fleet elements of the Task Force are underway.

Very weak Morse weather transmission noted on 8345 Khz. The call sign was too weak to copy.

13th July, 12 GMT

Northern Fleet element

8345 Khz
13121 99674 10078 @1220Z

67.4N 07.8E

Map Link (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=67.4N+07.8E&hl=en&ll=66.142743,10.942383&spn=12.08272,53.569336&t=m&z=5/)

Baltic Fleet

8345 RMP DE RBES 13121 99546 10112 22270 @1224Z

54.6N 11.2E Heading North West Speed 0 Knots or not reported

Map Link (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=54.6N+11.2E&hl=en&ll=54.635697,10.942383&spn=4.292701,13.392334&t=m&z=7/)

The Black Sea element is still heading towards Syria.

12464 RCV DE RCJE 13121 99340 10302 22222 @1203Z

34.0N 30.2E Heading East at 6-10 Knots

Map Link (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=34.0N+30.2E&hl=en&t=m&z=7/)

Nikolay Chiker is listed as participating and movements will likely appear at the following link.

NIKOLAY CHIKER - Vessel's Details and Current Position - 8613334 - 273543910 (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?MMSI=273543910)

Full details of the vessels released by the Russian Media at following link.

'Russian Navy Command explained warships sending to the Mediterranean Sea'

Russian Navy Command explained warships sending to the Mediterranean Sea (http://rusnavy.com/news/newsofday/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=15491)

Just a quick post to keep those interested updated. I won't clog up the thread with further routine position reports. If they pass through the Strait of Gibraltar I'll post an update.

[TEEEJ]

M/V Alaed

Position Recorded on:
2012-07-12T10:17:00 (UTC)

Lat/Lon: 69.65979 / 14.40417
Speed/Course: 13.3 kn / 228°

From

Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=273355170&zoom=10&olddate=lastknown)

Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/)

[ORAC]

Syria crisis: Defence & INterior Ministers killed in Damascus attack (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jul/18/syria-crisis-damascus-diplomatic-battles-live)

........Damascus security building was targeted during a meeting for ministers and security leaders: state TV #Syria #Breaking.....

...........Hezbollah TV is now saying Assad's brother-in-law, Assef Shawkat [Interior Minister], is dead.....

..........Syria: State media has confirmed that the defence minister was killed in the blast.........

[27mm]

The Torygraph has an article that refers to casualties with symptoms similar to those with Nerve Gas employed against them, according to a Syrian doctor.....

[TEEEJ]

The Syrian Hind helos have apparently been unloaded from the M/V Alaed at Kaliningrad?

Syria-Bound Helicopters Unloaded at Russian Port

MOSCOW — Three refurbished Russian attack helicopters have been removed from the Alaed, a transport ship that was delivering them to Syria, the Russian news agency Interfax reported Friday.

Interfax quoted an unnamed source saying that the trio of Mi-25 helicopters had been offloaded at the port of Baltiisk, in the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea.

“Three helicopters were unloaded from the Alaed during a brief stay at Baltiisk. The helicopters are likely to be moved to the 150th Aircraft Repair Plant in the town of Lyublino-Novoye outside Kaliningrad, where they will be kept, pending other decisions,” the source told Interfax.

The Interfax report did not say when the helicopters had been removed from the ship. Earlier reports indicated that the Alaed had departed Baltiisk on July 18, sailing in a northwestern direction. The ship’s owner told Interfax that the ship would sail to St Petersburg, where it would take on additional cargo, and then continue on to the Far East.

Last week Russia said it would freeze arms sales and deliveries to Syria while the conflict there escalates.

Syria-Bound Helicopters Unloaded at Russian Port - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/syria-bound-helicopters-unloaded-at-russian-port/)

[TEEEJ]

Syrian Foreign Ministry: Chemical and Biological Weapons Are Secured and Would Only Be Used in the Case of External Aggression

Jul 23, 2012

DAMASCUS, (SANA)- Foreign and Expatriates Ministry on Monday stressed Syria's stance that any chemical or biological weapons will never ever be used during the crisis in Syria notwithstanding the developments inside the country.

A statement by the Ministry, read by spokesman Dr. Jihad Makdissi in a press conference, said that such weapons stocks are secured and directly monitored by the Syrian Armed Forces and would only be used in the case of external aggression on the country.

Syrian Arab news agency - SANA - Syria : Syria news :: (http://www.sana.sy/eng/21/2012/07/23/432909.htm)

[racedo]

So Syrian statement is similar to the one used by powers holding Nuclear weapons then............

[Easy Street]

So Syrian statement is similar to the one used by powers holding Nuclear weapons then....Which would be fine if 188/196 UN members hadn't signed up to making chemical weapons illegal. Whilst I accept that Syria was not a signatory, it does indicate they're pissing into a global wind if they think that holding a chemical stockpile as a 'deterrent' is defensible. Do you defend it?

No such agreement exists on nuclear weapons and I think it unlikely ever to occur. Besides the nuclear powers, many non-nuclear states appreciate that the large-scale stability of the last 70 years would have been impossible without them.

Chemical weapons are no use as a military strategic deterrent. As demonstrated by Saddam, their primary use is to put down rebellions by uppity locals in such a gruesome way as to deter any future attempts. A well-trained military is certainly hindered by them, but no more.

[GreenKnight121]

A statement by the Ministry, read by spokesman Dr. Jihad Makdissi in a press conference, said that such weapons stocks are secured and directly monitored by the Syrian Armed Forces and would only be used in the case of external aggression on the country.

Since the Syrian government, from the beginning of the internal rebellion, has been claiming that the Syrian people aren't rebelling, and the only ones fighting the government are foreign fighters who have infiltrated the country, then the "necessary justification" has already been met, and we can expect to see bio-chem releases on "foreign fighters" in residential districts soon.

[Courtney Mil]

ES and GK,

Both very well made points.

[racedo]

Which would be fine if 188/196 UN members hadn't signed up to making chemical weapons illegal. Whilst I accept that Syria was not a signatory, it does indicate they're pissing into a global wind if they think that holding a chemical stockpile as a 'deterrent' is defensible. Do you defend it?

No such agreement exists on nuclear weapons and I think it unlikely ever to occur. Besides the nuclear powers, many non-nuclear states appreciate that the large-scale stability of the last 70 years would have been impossible without them.

Chemical weapons are no use as a military strategic deterrent. As demonstrated by Saddam, their primary use is to put down rebellions by uppity locals in such a gruesome way as to deter any future attempts. A well-trained military is certainly hindered by them, but no more.


If their sole purpose is a deterrent then it is effective......

Israel with nukes and bio weapons
Saudi's with Pakistan nukes
Taiwan with nukes and bio weapons

All are a threat IF forced into a corner.

Syria stated its position which is no difference to any other state or do you feel that only a few states should have the right to have a deterrent ?

[Easy Street]

I thought I was pretty clear but here goes...

Syria stated its position which is no difference to any other stateOnly different in that its chosen deterrence method is viewed as 'beyond the pale' by 96% of the governments in the world. That's pretty different in my mind.

or do you feel that only a few states should have the right to have a deterrent ?'Deterrent' isn't synonymous with 'WMD'. The right of states to have WMD is restricted by the NPT, the CWC and BWC and whether or not you think those are fair treaties is beside the point, because the vast majority of nations (including Ireland!) signed up to all 3 after years of debate and review. The virtually-universal rejection of CW and BW by people of all creeds and cultures is powerful and is undoubtedly the reason why the Syrian government (not normally viewed as 'fluffy') felt the need to issue its statement.

All states are allowed to have a conventional deterrent and one could argue that Syria's formidable GBAD and large regular army has done quite a good job over the last 30 years. You can be assured that the Israelis are not scared of chemical war!

[racedo]

Only different in that its chosen deterrence method is viewed as 'beyond the pale' by 96% of the governments in the world. That's pretty different in my mind.
Think you will find its closer to 100%


'Deterrent' isn't synonymous with 'WMD'. The right of states to have WMD is restricted by the NPT, the CWC and BWC and whether or not you think those are fair treaties is beside the point, because the vast majority of nations (including Ireland!) signed up to all 3 after years of debate and review. The virtually-universal rejection of CW and BW by people of all creeds and cultures is powerful and is undoubtedly the reason why the Syrian government (not normally viewed as 'fluffy') felt the need to issue its statement.

All states are allowed to have a conventional deterrent and one could argue that Syria's formidable GBAD and large regular army has done quite a good job over the last 30 years. You can be assured that the Israelis are not scared of chemical war! Right which is why numerous countries still have secret chemical weapons or can make them very easily IF REQUIRED.

The pretence of countries that they wouldn't use them is laughable as in the last 100 years the countries who have used chemical and nuclear weapons are the ones telling everyone else they can't have them.

No doubt some will argue that the horrors of chemical weapons in WW1 persuaded countries not to use them yet Kurds were gassed after that even when effect known because it was politically expedient to do so.

While nukes shouldn't be used post WW2 the nuclear powers saw nothing wrong using service personnel as guineau pigs and would do so again if it could get away with it.

Agent Orange used in Vietnam even when its effects known was use of a chemical weapon.

The use of Phosphorus against civilians pretty much breaches ICRC guidelines but hasn't stopped in being used by any of the major blocs.

Countries attempting to use morality about weapons is laughable especially when countries hold these weapons or even worse destructive one and would use them when threatened by an external force.

Isn't the holding of a deterrent done specifically to prevent extenal threats and safeguard the nation rather than something to threaten others ?

If thats not the case then we in the UK have been lied to for 60 plus years.

[Heathrow Harry]

IIRC the US has always classed use of chemical or biological weapons in the "weapons of mass destruction" category and threatened to retaliate with a bucket of instant sunshine

[Lonewolf_50]

GK:

It is interesting to recall that when I was involved with OIF back in 2004, the term used by our Army, our Sec Def, and our Coalition regarding quite a few of the people we were shooting at and dropping bombs on was

Foreign Fighters.

Granted, among the captured were no small number of young men from Libya, Saudi, Syria, Morocco, Tunisia, etcetera, who were there to help in the "cause" against the

Uh

Foreign Troops (us, and by "us" I refer to all of the nations whose troops served with the coalition)

who were in Iraq doing this, that, or the other.

"Foreigners" are apparently fair game.

Hmmm, looks like we are missing a trick on our own southern border, on this side of the pond. :E

[racedo]

IIRC the US has always classed use of chemical or biological weapons in the "weapons of mass destruction" category and threatened to retaliate with a bucket of instant sunshine

with the Caveat that "if its used by one of their "current" Allies on people who are not their allies then the above statement will not apply............. as per Saddam when he was Donny Rumsfields best mate.

[Trim Stab]

The biggest long term loser in this rebellion (and that of all the neighbouring states) will be Israel.

Not only will they simultaneously lose their disingenuous claim to be "the only democratic state in the ME", but they will also lose the support of all the ME dictators from whom undemocratic peace agreements have been bought by US/Israel with payments to their personal Swiss bank accounts.

When true democracy takes hold in ME, Israel will have to either acquiesce and accept their 1967 boundaries, or go nuclear.

[Lonewolf_50]

Trim Stab, I suspect that there will be choices in between your two extremes.

Excluded middle fallacy: look it up.

[TEEEJ]

Russian Navy Baltic and Northern Fleet elements have now passed through the Strait of Gibraltar and into the Mediterranean. Positional info from the Morse Code weather.

Baltic Fleet Tanker Lena

25th July, 06 GMT

8345 Kilohertz

RMP DE RKO81 25061 99358 70049 22233 @0622Z

35.8N 04.9W Heading South East at 11-15 Knots

Map Link (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=35.8N+04.9W&hl=en&t=m&z=7/)

[peter we]

No such agreement exists on nuclear weapons and I think it unlikely ever to occur. Besides the nuclear powers, many non-nuclear states appreciate that the large-scale stability of the last 70 years would have been impossible without them.


Actually the NNPT states that nuclear countries were supposed to get rid of their weapons. They ignored that and simply used the treaty to stop anyone else getting weapons.

How many wars have their been in the last 70 years of 'stability'? two nuclear states (UK and US) have been involved in most number of wars.

So you could argue the NNPT has made warfare more likely.

[Heathrow Harry]

but limited its extent..........

[ORAC]

Syria or Iran?

Donley: New Bunker-Busting Bomb Ready To Use (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120725/DEFREG02/307250003/Donley-New-Bunker-Busting-Bomb-Ready-Use?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE)

The Air Force’s 30,000-pound behemoth bunker buster is ready to be used if needed, Air Force Secretary Michael Donley said Wednesday.

The Massive Ordnance Penetrator, or MOP, is designed to destroy deeply buried bunkers that protect chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, but Defense Secretary Leon Panetta told the Wall Street Journal earlier this year that the bomb needed more development to be able to take out Iranian bunkers.

Since then, Syria has disintegrated into full civil war, making the U.S. government worried about the Syrian regime’s stockpile of chemical weapons. “The Syrian regime needs to protect these weapons,” Defense Department spokesman George Little said Tuesday. “And I think I’ve been very clear, as have others in the U.S. government, that it would be unacceptable not to secure them.”

After speaking at the Capitol Hill Club in Washington on Wednesday, Donley was asked if the MOP was available to be used. He was not asked where it might be used. “If it needed to go today, we would be ready to do that,” he said. “We continue to do testing on the bomb to refine its capabilities, and that is ongoing. We also have the capability to go with existing configuration today.”

[TEEEJ]

MOSCOW, July 26 (RIA Novosti) – Russia’s navy chief said on Thursday that a flotilla of Russian warships off the coast of Syria would not dock at a port leased by Moscow in the violence-stricken Middle East country.

“The joint fleet flotilla will not enter the port of Tartus,” Vice Admiral Viktor Chirkov told journalists. “It is carrying out military drills in the Mediterranean.”
The flotilla is comprised of 10 warships, plus escort vessels. Chirkov also said the flotilla was carrying marines.

Russian Warships Will Not Enter Syria Port (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20120726/174785489.html)

Syrian rebels threaten to attack Russian naval base - World - DNA (http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_syrian-rebels-threaten-to-attack-russian-naval-base_1719887)

[Trim Stab]

Excluded middle fallacy: look it up.


Ok, I forgot their third option - dupe the USA and UK into fighting their wars for them on their behalf.

[racedo]

You start to figure it nay not be going as NATO and Qatarabia want, when France starts demanding outside action ro prevent killing while arming the SFA, Turkey closing the border because Syria gave the Kurds bases and everybody realising that Al Qaeda are getting involved.

Israel happy for Status Quo as better the devil you know,as they found when Libya collapsed and all the missiles headed straight into Gaza.

[Andu]

If (when?) the rebels win this ongoing unpleasantness, I fear that for the West, it will be a clear case of "be careful what you wish for". Very, very big time.

[Lonewolf_50]

Trim STab, thanks so much for being predictable. :ok: :hmm:

As I said, there are a variety of other ways this all plays out.


Andu: Amen! :ok:

[phil9560]

Whenever I hear our noble resistance fighters chanting 'Allu Akbhar' the alarm bells start ringing.

Call me cynical...

[Andu]

Me too, phil... Those "freedom fighters'" idea of an Arab Spring is to 'spring' the world, both them and the rest of us, back to the 14th century.

I believe the current sorry excuse for leaders we're 'enjoying' in the West are about to find out just how wise those 'unenlightened' earlier Western leaders were in lending support to those awful despots who have led the Arab world for the last half century or more.

A mate of mine, who served as a very senior diplomat in Cairo only a few short years ago, at the time of the first demonstrations in Cairo, said, prophetically, I think, that "...two years from now, those Egyptians demonstrating in the streets will be looking back to the Mubarak years as 'the good old days' - particularly the women."

Careful what you wish for indeed...

[phil9560]

Theres an awful lot crawling out of the woodwork Andu !

Sometimes better the devil you know.

[TEEEJ]

The Black Sea Fleet elements of the Russian Navy Task Force are returning to home port.

Russian naval unit to continue mission in Mediterranean without Black Sea Fleet ships

Russian Black Sea Fleet ships have completed their mission in the Mediterranean as part of an inter-fleet unit including also ships from the Northern and Baltic Fleets, and the unit will continue its mission in the area under a joint command, the Navy Main Staff told Interfax-AVN on Saturday.

"The crews of the destroyer Smetlivy and the landing ships Tsezar Kunikov and Nikolai Filchenkov have completed their combat mission in the Mediterranean," a Navy Main Staff spokesperson said.

The Navy Main Staff had told Interfax-AVN earlier on Saturday that the Tsezar Kunikov and the Nikolai Filchenkov had returned to their base at the Sevastopol port on Saturday morning, and the Smetlivy was in the Sea of Marmara and was expected to reach Sevastopol on Sunday to take part in the final phase of a naval parade marking Navy Day.

The inter-fleet unit will continue performing its duties in the Mediterranean until it receives a special instruction from the Main Staff. "It was planned that the units of ships from the three fleets will meet in the Mediterranean at the end of July to jointly perform emerging tasks. However, this task is no longer relevant," he said.

Russian naval unit to continue mission in Mediterranean without Black Sea Fleet ships | Russia Beyond The Headlines (http://rbth.ru/articles/2012/07/28/russian_naval_unit_to_continue_mission_in_mediterranean_with out_blac_16796.html)

At least two vessels of the Baltic Fleet Task Force element have left the Mediterranean. Currently heading northwards off the coast of Portugal.

[Rosevidney1]

And now the Kurds in Northern Syria want independence. I can't see that pleasing our NATO ally Turkey and it makes accurate predictions to the final outcome of this conflict even more impossible.

[racedo]

And now the Kurds in Northern Syria want independence. I can't see that pleasing our NATO ally Turkey and it makes accurate predictions to the final outcome of this conflict even more impossible.

I can see Iraq and Iran maybe adding to this to skewer Turkey and NATO.

[Lonewolf_50]

That's passing strange.

NATO went to great lengths to use armed force to support the independence of Bosnians, Croats, and Kosovars. (Albanians who moved north?) During the bombing raids on Serbia, a Greek staff officer I worked with was distraught.
His point: "we are bombing the wrong people!"

Why not throw the full weight of NATO in support of the Kurds? :E
The initial liberation of the Kurds, begun on 2003, ought to be followed up upon! :ok:

[Rosevidney1]

Lonewolf 50 have you considered the likelihood of the unintended consequences of this idea? Count me out.

[racedo]

Why not throw the full weight of NATO in support of the Kurds? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif
The initial liberation of the Kurds, begun on 2003, ought to be followed up upon! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

It was 91 but then someone went back on the idea.

[Lonewolf_50]

Rose:

Yes, I have. Frequently. (See the smilies I chose ... )

I think the Kurds have every bit as much right as the Kosovars, Bosniaks, and any number of other "special" nationalistic groups to the support of the international community.

It is just possible that the point I am making is:

Who picks who gets special treatment, and why? Why are the Kurds unspecial? What made Libyans special?

For racedo: I am more than passing familiar with Operation Provide Comfort and such, thanks.

[Ronald Reagan]

Some news from Moscow

NATOSource &bull; Russia will not let EU search its ships for Syria arms (http://natosource.tumblr.com/post/28268338450/russia-will-not-let-eu-search-its-ships-for-syria-arms)

[racedo]

Who picks who gets special treatment, and why? Why are the Kurds unspecial? What made Libyans special?

Good point ....

Idiots in State Dept / NSA . CIA or of the other Allied countries meddlers who decide something must be done and nobody has the Cojones to says stop usually. Then the stupid exercise gets worse as collective stupidity overcomes any resistance to insanity of idea.

Bit like Brzezinski deciding to interfere in Afghanistan in 1970's, 9/11 was a bit of blowback on that as well as USS Cole and lots of other crap.

[racedo]

RR

EU has no right to search any countries ships going to Syria unless they in EU territorial waters. The definition of EU territorial waters of course would mean that member states cede their territorial rights to the EU to do as they wish, something unlikely to happen.

Any attempt to do so has no legal basis and no different to an act of piracy on deciding to search ships in International waters with no legal basis in International law.

Course precedence would allow other countries right to do so as well be it military or civilian craft.

[Ronald Reagan]

Good. The less we keeping sticking our noses into the internal affairs of these places the better. The fools in charge cannot even run our own nations properly let alone having a desire to get involved in things which do not concern them.

[Heathrow Harry]

Just struck me that Mrs Asma Assad is a full British Citizen (born in London , schooled in Acton)

So she can come home and, due to her right to a family life, presumably bring her husband with her

Maybe he'll go back to being an eye doctor at St Mary's in W London and she can take up merchant banking again...................

[Lonewolf_50]

Works for me, since bankers nowadays seem to be synomyous with "criminal" and worse. :E

[Heathrow Harry]

odd they were probably quite normal folk in London & suddenly turn into raving mass murderers

but then ol' Adolf was always kind to children & dogs..............

[Rosevidney1]

I no longer have any idea as to who the baddies are or even if there are any goodies. The media have been making misleading statements and/or comments from the beginning - but then they usually do. We, the great unwashed are told what the movers and shakers want us to know.

[Thelma Viaduct]

LiveLeak.com - New Massacre at "Dear Alzoor" City done by Assad Gangs

Not a pretty sight seeing women and children burned to a crisp, it makes Afghanistan and Iraq look even more of a total waste of people, time and resources.

It's a shame that Syria isn't awash with wmd/insurgents/taliban/'terrorists'/heroin/superguns I mean oil, this mess would have been sorted out by now.

[500N]

That is pretty damn sick.

The downward spiral is only going to get worse
which is a shame.

[Lonewolf_50]

Kofi Anan is a real stand up guy: "I quit" quoth he, as of 31 Aug, and noted in his public remarks that he believes that the current Sec Gen of the UN will find "someone as crazy as me" to repalce himself, the Anan-ted one. ;)

Story Here (http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/02/13087795-kofi-annan-quits-role-as-uns-syria-envoy?lite)

I don't doubt that the Sec Gen has got a pile of people as useless as Kofi Anan available, but I will relent in my snark with this thought: this deal in Syria may be a turd that can't be polished, no matter how hard the UN rubs it with a silk buffing cloth.

[phil9560]

Even Kofi has baled out .

[racedo]

Nice that US admitting its using CIA to fund Al Qaeda again.............

How did the original plan from 1980's work out again..................

[Heathrow Harry]

well it worked really well up to a point - ;);)

.

[Lonewolf_50]

The media are reporting that British Syrian fighters took a British reporter hostage. In Syria. Fun times for all, no doubt, and did they at least serve him a pint now and again? ;)

[Rosevidney1]

Shouldn't think so LW50. With all our 'rich diversity' (as we keep being told on television and in the dead tree press) - I doubt they would do any act likely to be frowned upom by their fun-loving Mullahs.

[Fareastdriver]

Looks as if the Chinese are keeping their feet in both camps in the Middle East.

Sino-Israeli first joint military drill jitters U.S. - China News - SINA English (http://english.sina.com/china/p/2012/0814/496642.html)

[500N]

Interesting.

Nothing in that article is any different to what the Australian Defence Force have done in the last few years and the RAN in the last year except I think our ship docked in China after live fire war games instead of the other way round.

[racedo]

Hmmmm

Given Saudi's suggested last year they break with tradition will buy arms from other countries (i.e. Other than UK/US/France), the suggestion is long range missiles from China. The cosying up to Israel may suggest a potential fundamental shift in how rulers are seeing the long term.

[Heathrow Harry]

more likely th e Chinese are looking to steal Israeli technology -

sorry - I didn't mean to say "steal"

I meant "construct an homage" to Israeli technology

[ORAC]

Given Saudi's suggested last year they break with tradition will buy arms from other countries (i.e. Other than UK/US/France), the suggestion is long range missiles from China. Errr, they already have long rnge missiles from China - and for many years, since 1988 in fact (http://geimint.********.co.uk/2009/02/saudi-arabias-ballistic-missile-force.html).

[TEEEJ]

The drills will probably be search and rescue and naval cooperation at sea drills? These Chinese vessels are from the anti-piracy Task Force that was in the Red Sea/Horn of Africa. They have made good will visits to Black Sea ports, in Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey and Ukraine.

Two Chinese Warships Are In Turkey « (http://turkishnavy.net/2012/07/29/two-chinese-warships-are-in-turkey/)

11th Chinese naval escort taskforce leaves Gulf of Aden

The 11th Chinese naval escort taskforce of the Navy of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) left the Gulf of Aden and the waters off Somali coast where the taskforce had conducted escort missions for more than four months and embarked on its new voyage of visits on July 23, 2012.

Up to now, the 11th Chinese naval escort taskforce has accomplished 43 escort missions for 184 Chinese and foreign ships, effectively coped with and repelled the harassments by126 suspected pirate boats in 58 batches, and ensured the safety of the escorted ships and the taskforce.

After its departure from the waters of the Gulf of Aden, the 11th Chinese naval escort taskforce is scheduled to pay a friendly visit to Ukraine, Romania, Turkey, Bulgaria and Israel successively in two columns. It is the first time for the Chinese naval ships to visit Romania, Bulgaria and Israel.

11th Chinese naval escort taskforce leaves Gulf of Aden - People's Daily Online (http://english.people.com.cn/90786/7886530.html)

12th Chinese naval escort taskforce sets sail - People's Daily Online (http://english.people.com.cn/90786/7866048.html)

[ORAC]

Syrian Rebels Put Captured Iranian Drones on YouTube (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/08/syria-iran-drones/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WiredDangerRoom+%28Wired%3A+Blog+-+Danger+Room%29&utm_content=Google+Reader)