Emirates Sing-Melb

[Octane]

Flew in this morning with Emirates from Singapore on B777. Me and 72 others that is (all classes).

Curious to know what load would be approx breakeven point? I guess it would depend on how much freight was carried but 73 passengers on such a large aircraft?
At what point would they cancel a flight if at all due to no customers? Any theories as to why it's so quiet? I wonder if other carriers are experiencing the same...

[zappalin]

This is my completely uninformed, and probably nowhere near accurate opinion...

I think Emirates sees the value of having an airline that effectively covers 'everywhere'. As in, if you are a frequent flyer with Emirates, you know that you can get anywhere in the globe on their metal, which may be why they have joined no alliance.
If they receive bilateral or other rights, they'll use them. Perhaps even if the route makes a minor loss (!), just to maintain this model. Seems alien here in Australia, what with the cost cutting mentality, but their aggressive strategy and coverage seems to be winning a few punters over... And profitable despite some nay-sayers.

As I said, I have no concrete info on this, only my garbled thoughts and if anyone can shed more light please do!

[ButFli]

Plenty of airlines have used the "everywhere, even at a loss" principle in the past. Most of them have died, the rest have cut back their network. Qantas used to do it (with at least 5 different routes to London, both east and west etc) and look what happened to them. History shows it's a poor way of doing business long term.

Modern consumers don't maintain loyalty to a particular airline. They look at whatever fare is cheapest and go with it. An airline that must subsidise unpopular routes with fares from popular routes cannot stay competitive with other airlines that only fly the popular routes. The average consumer wanting to fly a popular route doesn't care what other routes an airline flies - they want the cheapest fare.

[Wizofoz]

It's low season.

Come July there isn't a spare seat on ANY service to Aus.

[donpizmeov]

Its also on the Boeing. Its good at hauling freight they say, but the PAX prefer the 380. :E

The Don

[Wizofoz]

..,Only when it's flying Don, when the Dugong is in the Hangar having it's little "problem" seen too, Pax are quite happy on the Tripler...

[fatbus]

Well maybe that day they only made 3 mil US$, the sky is falling, by the way I only had 34 coming back from Doha.

Point is you have to look at yearly load factors.

[600ft-lb]

Point is you have to look at yearly load factors. Of which EK has the worst by far, out of ALL the majors.
*to/from Australia

[oz in dxb]

8J and 72Y I/B to MEL from SIN. A/C approx 3/4 full O/B to SIN and 4T below MZFW.
Maybe it's light one way but fairly full on the other way.

Oz

[Stop ECAM]

From a mate at Emirates who flew this pairing last week:

Dubai - SIN; FULL
SIN - ML; 140 pax

ML - SIN; 170 or so pax
SIN - Dubai; FULL


When all chairs are full on the 777, it can carry about 30 + T of freight.

When all chairs are full on 380, it carries about 3 - 4 t of freight.

Payload per nm is cheaper on the 777 than the 380.

Peoples preferences differ on what they would rather fly on.

[Wizofoz]

which EK has the worst by far, out of ALL the majors.


I'd be interested in the source of that statistic, 600.

[donpizmeov]

Stop ECAM, your figures re what can be carried by what are wrong. However I will give you that a 3 class 777 will carry 23t of freight with full seats on a short/medium sector. The 380 would carry 150 more pax and 17t of freight on the same short/medium/long haul sector.

But you are right, the B777 is a great freighter.

The Don

[Wizofoz]

But you are right, the B777 is a great freighter.

and if ONLY that were a way to make money!!

[600ft-lb]

WizOZ

http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/files/International_airline_activity_FY11.pdf

[ramius315]

If you have a look at the figures for EK and compare them to the figures for SIA, something doesn't fit. ie 281 less flights inbound, yet 137,000 more seats available?

I wouldn't have thought their fleets into Aust were too different for such a mismatch in seat numbers?

At a guess I am tipping the flights across the Tasman (which i believe carry a lot of freight on the pax flights) are adversely swaying these figures. Certainly the flights from the Middle East and Asia don't reflect those load factors.

[Beer Baron]

Surely by now any astute reader of PPRuNe knows that a completely empty 777 will make billions of dollars on any conceivable sector. While a full A380 will make no money on a on a short sector,
lose $10 million on a long sector
and lose $100 million if it's operated by Qantas.
They are the *facts*.

[Visual Procedures]

The final flight plan for 24th May shows about a 28T payload.

So approx 20T of freight..

But all us (ex)red tails know there is no money in freight :rolleyes:

[Skystar320]

sadly not all pax like the A380, in fact I hate it and will delay my flight for a 777....

[DrPepz]

It is worthwhile considering that EK's planes are extremely densely configured, with 2-3-2 in their 777s in J, and 3-4-3 in Y. As such, their 77Ws have 378 seats, as opposed to SQ's have only have 278 seats in an extremely low density 1-2-1 configuration in J.

As such, a 100% load factor on SQ's 777Ws would translate to just 74% on EK. And a 65% load factor on EK's 77Ws would be akin to 88% on SQ's 77Ws.

[1a sound asleep]

EK is a low cost freight and passenger airline that has premium classes. People just haven't realised that yet

[donpizmeov]

Not in the oz sense of low cost though 1a, as EK pilots don't buy their ratings. Still more expensive than Qf for a ticket though. I guess you can do that when you fly to more places than LA and LHR.

The don

[Plazbot]

You sure Don? I bought 4 business returns to East Coast OZ for 32000 desert dollars combined on the direct service last Summer ex Dubai. Cathay is the only airline as a viable alternative comparing cost to outcome. On top of that, I have a couple of reality class tix to New York this summer for 4000 dingas a pop with Qarari. Even taking price out, Qantas are not even in the game with any of those carriers.

[1a sound asleep]

Try a 28 trip in Y on an EK 777 and you will see how good/bad it is