Hunter crash at Epping, Essex in mid 50s

[Stan Sted]

When I was a very little lad (mid to late Fifties) I witnessed an aircraft crash at Epping, Essex.

A Hunter from RAF North Weald, apparently suffered engine failure and dived in the ground from about 12,000ft on what I recalled was a bright Sunday morning in October.

It was shortly after the end of the cricket season and my brother and I were helping our father, who was captain of the local cricket team, do some work on the square, when we heard this appalling roaring noise. We looked up and saw a blazing aircraft heading straight for us.

Father lead us at a full gallop to a large mound of earth beside the boundary and taking cover behind it we were able to see the aircraft impact about 300 yards away.

It landed in the grounds of Epping Place, a large local manor house, causing relatively little damage.

We later heard that the pilot had ejected safely and landed about six miles to the south at Buckhurst Hill.

It would be interesting to hear from the pilot to find out exactly what happened.

cheers SS

Father was later working at Dunsfold and asked a Hunter techie if he could recall the incident. The chap did, but not the reason for the crash.

[gravity victim]

Funny how something can spark a forgotten memory, decades later. Yours has just reminded me of watching a Battle of Britain Day air display as a small kid at RAF Syerston, when a Vulcan disappeared on finals and a cloud of black smoke arose from the trees, with people all around looking grim and fire trucks roaring off. I believe that nobody survived.

[Speedbird48]

The Vulcan at Syerston was an early development airplane and the cause was the leading edge of the wing coming adrift. The crew was unfortunatly killed.
There was a recent article in Flypast or Aeroplane that showed a picture of the airplane flying past at that airshow.
I am sorry that I don't have the date but I pass my magazines on to others.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Whilst on about Vulcan's, my Uncle was Navigator in a Vulcan that did some weird World record, and was landing back at London Airport, somewhere a picture exists of him being No2 baling out from underneath just as the thing was losing it, after its incorrect arrival the burnt out shape of the entire aircraft could be seen as though it has been fired whilst parked! ;)

[skua]

That is a very famous Vulcan crash - caused if I remember rightly, by the staff officer on board, Harry Broadhurst? - over-ruling the captain amd forcing them into an instrument approach at LHR, when the weather was below minimums. Few survived.

[CurtissJenny]

On the other side of the world I can recall the three Vulcans flying overhead along Port Phillip Bay, Melbourne. They returned to the UK shortly afterwards.
One was to crash in that below IFR conditions. If I recall correctly the a/c undershot, touched down in a potato field and then did a go-around during which the skipper said bail out. The guys who got ejected downwards had a problem.
Check me if the story is a bit fuzzy.

[tony draper]

I was working in the wilds of north Durham, stringing cable with a gang, I had to leave to look at another job, shortly after I left, a Vulcan overflew the chaps and crashed into a field, I missed it by 30 minutes,I think all the crew survived, but the lads were shook up and spoke of little else for months.
For the life of me I cannot remember the year, must have been late sixties early seventies.
The past is becoming a blur to Draper.

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]</p>

[Suit]

Vfrpilotpb, skua, Curtisjenny,

Nice thread this, but we are in danger of perpetrating, or indeed creating, a few urban myths.

No navigator "baled out" of the Vulcan that crashed at LHR, nobody forced the a/c captain into an instrument approach, and there is no possibility of anyone being "ejected downwards" from a Vulcan or indeed any V-bomber.

The only survivers from the LHR crash were the Captain and the onboard VIP, ACM Broadhurst.They were sat up front in the only two ejection seats on the aicraft. The controversy at the time was that Broadhurst, not qualified on type, took the right hand seat for the leg back to the UK and a fully qualified co-pilot was riding down the back where he died in the ensueing crash.
For the record all three V-bomber types (Vulcan, Victor, Valiant) only ever had ejection seats for the Pilot and co-pilot. There were plans and schemes to fit the other three crew members with bang seats but tjet were rejected initially on cost grounds and subsequently as the type was always 'on the verge of retirement.'

To illustrate how these "urban myths" can become semi-fact, some years ago my family and I were escorted around the Vulcan that is 'preserved' at the Midland Air Museum at Coventry airport. The guide, sporting bristly white 'tache, Bomber Command blazer and tie, confidently told my little group that there had never been an instance of a complete Vulcan crew abandoning an aircraft in flight, that two thirds of the aircraft delivered to the RAF were lost in fatal crashes, and to really cap it all, that during the Falklands war a large number of Vulcans were shot down by Argentinian aur defences and that the facts had been hushed up by the MOD!
At this point I lost my patience completel;y and told this clown that he was talking complete B*****ks. He got pretty shirty with me and asked me how the hell I knew any more than him about the Vulcan than him. Now it just happens that I had my logbooks with me as I was interested to see (for the families benefit, hum!)if I had ever flown that particular aircraft. He refused to believe that the log books were mine and we parted on somewhat unpleasant terms.

Beware urban myths boys and girls.

Suit

[BEagle]

Suit is absolutely correct about the London Airport crash. It was on 1 Oct 56 and there were a whole host of contributory factors including previously unknown pressure errors affecting the Vulcan altimeter system. The weather conditions passed to the crew were entirely reasonable for a GCA approach and Broadhurst did not pressure the crew to make the approach.

It was 3/4 of an acre of Brussels sprouts which were flattened, incidentally!

The Syerston accident was caused by the aircraft being flown at 410-420 kts, 40 kts over its maximum permitted speed, at 70 ft a.g.l. (yes, seventy feet) and then executing a rolling pull up at around 2-3g, nearly 3 times the permitted limit. Not surprisingly it disintegrated.

Acknowledgements to my first Vulcan captain, Andrew Brookes, as some of this information comes from his excellent book 'Crash'

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

[Vfrpilotpb]

Suit, beagle,
I may be wrong on the location/ accident involving my Nav uncle, so I will have to dig back into the archives of time to correct myself, I am sorry if I have caused some confusion, but I will report back.
My Regards <img src="redface.gif" border="0">

[PaperTiger]

Must have been a different accident. Only the flight deck crew survived at LHR.
Photocopy of the parliamentary report here:
<a href="http://www.pro.gov.uk/inthenews/Aircrash/Aircrash2est.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pro.gov.uk/inthenews/Aircrash/Aircrash2est.htm</a>

[fantom]

BEagle....
"2-3g being three times the permitted limit".....
in that case most of the time it would need to be flown in a bunt. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[BEagle]

Pedant!

The rolling limit was half the straight and level limit of +2.25 Gz, i.e. it was +1.125Gz. The aircraft was subjected to a load of between +2 and +3 Gz when it disintegrated, i.e. 1.78 to 2.67 times the limit.

'Nearly 3 times the permitted limit' was merely easier to type!

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

[CamelPilot]

Urban myths Suit? Possibly, but then aviation history has many myths, not to mention history overall.

I wouldn't worry about it on this forum anyway, because there is now, and there will be more of the stories that will be questioned and refuted if need be by the wise among us. The question of the Vulcan crash at LHR is just such a case. Paper Tiger answered it all in one fell swoop with details from the PRO.

Btw, welcome BEagle.

[Daifly]

Am I correct in thinking that the Victor, or possibly the Vulcan, did have a prototype ejector seat for the guys in the back? It was a system which did indeed eject them downwards, by the middle one going first and then the outside two being dragged sidewards and then finally down?

I think that this system was in place in the Victor (in fact, the more I write the more convinced I am!) when they had a problem and I think the system failed, the P1 broke his neck on the way out and the only survivor was P2?

Perhaps it's my memory - but it's in Stanley Stewart's book "Emergency: Crisis on the Flightdeck" - my copy of the book is in Wales, I'm not, so can't check!

Hope this isn't just my memory playing tricks!

Dai

[BEagle]

Hi, Camel Pilot!

I think that the 'rear crew ejecting downwards' myth is due to confusion with the 'rear crew escape system' - which was merely a system of inflating seat cushions supposed to assist the escape of the Nav Radar, Nav Plotter and AEO through the escape hatch.

No Victor, Vulcan or Valiant ever had ejector seats fitted for the rear crew, an utterly scandalous which killed several people. In the Vulcan in particular, the gymnastics involved for the rear crew to avoid hitting the nose undercarriage with the landing gear down were totally unfeasible. A movie showing how to do it by a PJI in a wind tunnel was far from convincing - hence prolonged circuit flying was pretty unpopular with many navigators and AEOs!

Rear crew ejection systems were designed when the aircraft were switched to the low level role in the mid-60s but were never developed as, of course, the TSR2 was going to enter RAF service in 1967-68 and the Vulcan would have been withdrawn shortly afterwards......about 20 years afterwards, as it turned out!!

[Gainesy]

BEagle's assertion that no V ever had ejection seats for the rear crew is correct in that none were (retro)fitted to in-service aircraft.

However Martin-Baker developed a rear crew ejection seat sytem which couldhave been fitted to all three types and a prototype was sucessfully live tested by W T 'Doddy' Hay from a Valiant on July 1st 1960; I believe it was a 0ft/90kt capable system as the picture shows the seat about 100ft above the aircraft which is hammering down the runway.

The rear centre seat fired first (but upwards)then the two rear outboard seats in turn tilted inwards and fired at an angle through the large hatch above the centre seat.

At a much later demo to the MoD at Chalgrove, using a damaged Vulcan's nose section, all three dummy rear crew were in fully developed 'chutes within 3sec of ejection initiation, using zero/zero seats this time.

After years of spending company money on developing the system, James Martin was incensed when it was rejected by the MoD on cost grounds and the "pending" retirement of the V-Force.

Edit to add:
Stan Sted
Looking through Martin-Baker's record of successful Hunter ejectees in October in the 1950s, there was only one on 8/10/58 but this was a Wednesday. Location is not given but the pilot is listed as a Mr H.U.Weber and the a/c operator as "Civ". Sure it was October?

[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: Gainesy ]</p>

[Woomera]

Fascinating stuff.

Thanks guys I still have the pictures in what now passes for my brain of the 3 'V' Bombers and other types doing their thing at various times at Farnborough.

I can still see in my minds eye, the flypast at the opening of the Empire Games in Perth in the sixties. Very light the Pearce airbase only 10 minutes away and sedate approach then accelerating to full power pull up showing that great batwing in plan form to the crowd as it went away.
They were one of the types that 'did it' for me as far as a future career was concerned, unfortunately not in those types.

To have the opportunity to sit in and listen to those whom have actually operated them is a rare privilege indeed.

Low level, high speed and/or rolling pull ups?... I wonder how many aircraft have become the victims of such enthusiasm over the years. We had a RAAF P3 Orion down here trashed at Cocos Island doing precisely that as a parting gesture for the islanders and took the leading edge off. Splashed into the shallow lagoon with no loss of life if I recall but with much embarrasment.

[Troy Tempest]

A report about the Vulcan crash in Co Durham can be found at he North East Aircraft Museum's web site
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~BDaugherty/neam/wingate.html" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~BDaugherty/neam/wingate.html</a>

Also interestingly a connection with the Vulcan preserved there

Troy

[Stan Sted]

Gainsey

Hunter incident was definitely at the weekend and at the end of the cricket season.
It is amazing how some things remain in the memory, for example, yesterday after Christmas lunch, my father recalled that the crash was at the end of the cricket season because he was laying new drainage pipes around the square. He can even remember the size of the pipes he used.

But he cannot recall the precise year, not even after several large brandies :)

[Gainesy]

Stan

Not being a cricketer; what month did the season end in those days? (Seems to be 24/365 now). Another idea, does the club have any records of when your father laid the drainage; AGM Minutes etc?

[Stan Sted]

Gainsey

Cricket season would have ended in the first week of October. Alas, Epping CC would not have kept records of the AGM..in fact the club was so laid back on admin I doubt that they kept minutes of any AGM!

Not to worry M, I will try to check with the local newspaper, they might have their old pages on microfilm.

[tony draper]

Thank you for the link TT, as I said I missed the event by thirty minutes but I have always wondered about that crash.
I hear that the Vulcan at Sunderland was badly Vandalised over the years, used to drive past the Museum every day, always meant to go and give the Vulcan a pat.
Reminds me of something else, in the late seventies early eighties, in recognition of their recent declared nuclear free status, Sunderland council were going to open up their nuclear bunker to the public.
Later a announcement in the press stated, Sunderland council is unable to open the bunker to the public, as it has been destroyed by, vandals. heh heh, thought that was hilarious.

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]</p>

[Troy Tempest]

The Vulcan at Sunderland is still very much there - thankfully the vandalism has been light (but still unappreciated) - if you turn up on a Sunday and there's enough of us there you can have a look around. Seems like we're we're not the only ones to have suffered vandalism related problems!

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Troy Tempest ]</p>

[StressFree]

Stan,
This is a small world, I've played at the ground you mention in my short career with The Epping Foresters and I know Epping Place very well. Its hard to believe that this lovely pitch is on top of the M25.
Best regards,

<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Stan Sted]

StressFree

Epping CC's ground was and still is in Lower Bury Lane, Epping. My father played for the team from before the war until he was 66. He was best known for hitting the faster century on the ground (less than 50 mins) and for breaking more windows in adjoining properties than any other player.
I was scorer from the age of about eight until 14 when I started to play. The ground was also the test flight zone for most of my early model aircraft ranging from Keil Kraft Conquest gliders up to the Mercury Matador single channel radio controlled power job. Ah, what great days they were.

The Foresters were the local rivals and their ground is still located right next to the forest but now has the M25 below it in a cut-and-cover tunnel. My wife's father played for the Foresters for about 35 years. Do you remember Stuart Turner's amazing double century at the Foresters before he was signed up by Essex?

Ah old days!

SS

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Stan Sted ]</p>