The right call at DA/DH?

[truckflyer]

I have now been presented with few variations of this call, during my MCC i was told the call should be Decide, as this was a more positive orientated mind set to initiate a go-around, if required.

However other places I have been told to use: Minimums?

I am sure there are probably other variations out there too, however just wondering which one of these is the more "correct" one? or is it another variation?

[Tom!]

We just say "land" or "go around" when the plane shouts "minimums"

[truckflyer]

So PNF does not even make the call?

[Tom!]

Nope, plane does all the talking. PNF only replaces the call if the plane doesn't say anything. So monitoring still is required.

[redsnail]

PNF says "Decide"
PF says "Land" or "go around"

[bingofuel]

"Continue"

Just because you are below minimums does not mean a landing is assured or safe, all it means is you have the required visual references to continue the approach, saying landing or decide is fine, but what if something happens after the minimum height is passed and a landing is no longer safe, ie runway incursion, strong gust, windshear, etc

[Otto Throttle]

Different operators will have different SOP calls at this point. Don't stress too much what your MCC provider has specified - that is their SOP and your first employer may well have something else.

The crucial thing to take away is that DA/DH is a minimum altitude/height which you must recognise and respond to with an appropriate action.

[mad_jock]

You wouldn't believe the amount of time thats used on debating what bloody word to use either.

The great "continue" debate.

Just wait until you get into the huge debate about if the parking brake is "set" or "on" the hours wasted discussing that crutial to flight safety wording that must have been done round the world.

[bingofuel]

Well MJ I suppose 'set' would refer to the position of the park brake lever, and ON would apply if you knew the brakes had actually been applied.........

Okay I will leave quietly!!!

[mad_jock]

Don't bloody start.

Anyway I have come to the conclusion that the shortest short arse present always gets to choose in the end, so you might as well give in quickly if your over 6 foot.

[wiggy]

just wondering which one of these is the more "correct" one? or is it another variation?

Basically what Otto said - i.e. the correct call is whatever is stated in your airline's Ops manual.

[bingofuel]

the shortest short arse present always gets to choose
Is that because they are closer to the ground and can see the runway first?

[CY333]

"Continue"

Just because you are below minimums does not mean a landing is assured or safe, all it means is you have the required visual references to continue the approach, saying landing or decide is fine, but what if something happens after the minimum height is passed and a landing is no longer safe, ie runway incursion, strong gust, windshear, etc

The OPS manual will clear this out but I am under the impression the Continue is a more Airbus thing going on.

A company I used to work for changed a cupel of years ago from landing to continue,If I am not mistaken this was a manufacturers suggestion.

The call out landing, gives me the impression you are somehow committed to land and we all know that even passing the minimums, even if having runway environment, things can always not go according to plan.
I agree with the above quote, as it makes more sense to me, you continue and commence landing unless it becomes unsafe to do so

[mad_jock]

To be honest 95% of the time the call at mins isn't really anything to do with landing the aircraft anyway. The runway will be in sight well before the minimums or decide call.

Its secondary function is a incapacitation check.

[virani_sarfaraz]

nope not necessary unless ur flying on a good day

as u approach minimums u have to decide either to initiate missed approach or continue to land

if you decide at minimums to initiate the missed approach procedure then you will bust the minimums as the aircraft will take time to climb

therefore you add 50 feet to minimums in the fms to avoid the bust

and always remember the final call is made by PIC at that time

[virani_sarfaraz]

and if you have the visual of the runway environment u can continue below minimums but at any point before landing if u feel it is unsafe then you proceed with missed approach

[Fakawi]

Minimums is utter rubish either minimum (singular) or minima (plural)
i`d go for the singular as there is only ONE minimum.

As for the call; "**** cant see a thing, lets fock off" :E

[Ollie Onion]

If auto call outs are operating then the aircraft anounces 'minima', if they are not working then the PNF announces 'decide'.

PF either calls 'land' or 'go-around flap'

That is how it works at the airline I work for, you will find minor variances depending on type / airline.

As stated above the 'land' call doesn't guarantee a landing but instead that at the DA/DH you have the required visibility to continue. If at any point the vis drops below that required you then go around, up to and including the point at which you select 'reverse thrust'.

Virani, as far as I am aware the use of a DA/DH does NOT require the addition of 50' as it is built into the approach design to allow the aircraft a tolerance of going below whilst the engines spool up.

If using a MDH/MDA then you do require the 50' additive as this is a not below altitude.

[virani_sarfaraz]

thanks for correcting

appreciate

happy landings

[CY333]

Virani, as far as I am aware the use of a DA/DH does NOT require the addition of 50' as it is built into the approach design to allow the aircraft a tolerance of going below whilst the engines spool up.

I believe during a CDFA approach you add 50ft but not sure if this is down to company policy, at least at the company I work, we add 50ft on a CDFA approach......

[VJW]

Well the 737 shouts minimums when you're there, perhaps that's where he's getting it.

What is this nonsense though about 'decide'??? As you fly the approach you call if you have runway, lights or some sort in sight as and when you see them. If the flight deck is silent all the way down the approach until someone or the aircraft calls minimums the decision is already made! Go around! Using a word like Decide could potentially give the wrong impression that you can now think about whether to land or not.

[rogerg]

What is this nonsense though about 'decide'???
Not maybe so. If the PM calls decide and the PF can see to land he will "decide" to land. If the PF does not have visual reference the the PM will go around.
This can often happen when the monitered approach system is being used.
A few times this has happened to me and the PM has commented after landing that he has not seen a thing.
That is one of the advantages of a monitered approach.

[Denti]

The airplane does all the talking, so the PM just sits there and monitor all the stuff going on. If already visual at the "500" call the PF can decide to "Land" and calls it, if not he does at the "Miminums" call. Either "Land" or "Go-Around". A landing clearance is not required for a land call, that can happen later and quite often does. However no landing clearance by 50ft is a go-around.

[rogerg]

The airplane does all the talking

Some AC dont "talk", must be showing my age!

[mad_jock]

And also some people set the DH on the rad alt when they are doing a CAT I approach which is also up for a much heated debate.

[Ollie Onion]

Hmmm, at the airline I worked for in the UK you could only use the DH for a CAT I approach if it had been surveyed and the CAT I DH was published on the landing performance paperwork.

What happens if you use the CAT I DH straight off the AERAD or JEPPs and there happens to be a big hole in the ground or a hill, it means you are going to end up to high or to low which could be the difference between missing out (if too high) or crashing (if too low)

[mad_jock]

Exactly ollie,

[Good Business Sense]

I don't think it matters much as the next chief/fleet pilot will change it anyway but if you've got an EICAS/ECAM etc then you could align the call with the screen message.