RAF CLUB [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

philrigger

22nd May 2012, 09:23

The email:

Sent on behalf of Air Mshl Sir Kevin Leeson, Chief of Materiel (Air):

Dear Colleagues,
At a time of considerable turbulence in our Civil Service manpower complement, I thought it might be worth reminding our Civil Service team (both those remaining in DE&S and those moving to pastures new) that our Civil Servants associated with supporting the Air Sector and the Royal Air Force are eligible to apply for Affiliate Membership of the RAF Club and would be welcomed if they sought to join. Full benefits are described on the website at home | RAF Club, London (http://www.rafclub.org.uk), but principally feature the use of a very nice club, spectacularly positioned in Central London with comfortable accommodation, good dining, sensible bar prices, like-minded clientele, a ‘distinct aviation atmosphere’ and highly competitive rates compared with the other clubs and hotels of the area. The joining fee is £134 with an annual subscription of £134. A double room is only £124 on a weekday night, less on the weekend. The Air Environment has many RAF Officers who are full members and would be happy to sponsor applications; I am certainly happy to support applicants. Please give this notion wide publicity in your Operating Centres.

Philrigger.

Melchett01

22nd May 2012, 09:31

like-minded clientele

That clearly doesn't apply to the Civil Servants I work with who frankly frankly would struggle in a recce test to differentiate between a carrier pigeon and a C-130.

But being slightly less flippant, how many of the CS working in Defence actually associate themselves with Defence and how many view what they do as just a job i.e. as long as the pay cheque comes in each month it doesn't matter whether its MOD or some QUANGO?

It might appeal to those who come up to London relatively infrequently but need a bed down location for a day or 2, but I would then have to ask why would they go to the RAF Club when they have their own Civil Service Club in Whitehall with lower membership fees?

salad-dodger

22nd May 2012, 09:59

I'm sure this will ellicit quite a reposne from some.................but I find it quite telling that the RAF would rather open up the RAF Club to the civil service than wider RAF use.

S-D

Seldomfitforpurpose

22nd May 2012, 10:04

I'm sure this will ellicit quite a reposne from some.................but I find it quite telling that the RAF would rather open up the RAF Club to the civil service than wider RAF use.

S-D

If you look at the costs involved what right minded OR would see 'a good deal' in what is on offer :ok:

Exascot

22nd May 2012, 10:35

Even less chance of getting accommodation on my very rare visits to London. I am seriously considering cancelling membership after 33 years.

Pontius Navigator

22nd May 2012, 10:36

Phil, you may have overlooked to survey that was offered last year. Other options included offering corporate membership to aviation related companies. They also suggested opening membership to our extended families.

Offering membership to civil servants is probably one of the least bad options. We already have many club exchange visitors in the club.

thegypsy

22nd May 2012, 11:11

Standby for a response from the BEAGLE:rolleyes:

Melchett01

22nd May 2012, 11:20

Further to my last, and having had a think about it, just how far does the CS invitation extend? Bearing in mind the raison d'etre of the Club is for individuals holding commissions, has a cut off point been set? Without wishing to sound snobbish, the Club needs to be careful not to alienate existing members.

Working on the CS - military equivalency scales, a D-grade CS would be entitled to join, which is fine in its own right. But the Club needs to keep in mind the lengthy and demanding process invovled in getting through the commissioning programme vice the fact that anyone can apply for a D-grade job regardless of personal qualities (for that read officer qualities) as long as they meet the competencies set out in the job description. Membership of the Club is, rightly, a privilege and one of the few perks of being awarded a commission. We would do well to remember that and keep a watchful eye on the balance of CS / Military rather than just opening the flood gates on financial grounds.

Pontius Navigator

22nd May 2012, 12:35

Melchett, there is of course a Civil Service Club too which after a brief glimpse seems similar to the Union Jack etc. That would suggest a demarcation line.

I presume they would also need a proposer and seconder. The point about cost/benefit is well made.

ratty1

22nd May 2012, 13:08

That clearly doesn't apply to the Civil Servants I work with who frankly frankly would struggle in a recce test to differentiate between a carrier pigeon and a C-130.

But the Club needs to keep in mind the lengthy and demanding process invovled in getting through the commissioning programme vice the fact that anyone can apply for a D-grade job regardless of personal qualities (for that read officer qualities) as long as they meet the competencies set out in the job description.

I guess it doesn't apply to current RAF Officers who quite frankly struggle with repeating words and getting involved in spelling some words.:hmm:

Seldomfitforpurpose

22nd May 2012, 14:11

Priceless :D:D:D:D:D

Melchett01

22nd May 2012, 15:10

ratty,

Good point well made. Although I note your criticism seems to be more about my crap typing (happy to cough to that one) rather than the efficacy of the argument.

So, if all you can contribute to the argument is to take snipe and take pot shots at other peoples' typing, I suggest you would probably feel more at home at Shrivenham than the RAF Club. Or maybe even the House of Commons; they seem to be quite good at spending all day dealing in ad hominem attacks without actually bringing anything positive to the table.

Incidentally
I guess it doesn't apply to current RAF Officers who quite frankly struggle with repeating words and getting involved in spelling some words
You guess what exactly doesn't apply? You don't make that clear - is that what you Shrivenham types would class as hanging participle?

Seldomfitforpurpose

22nd May 2012, 15:15

Ratty,

Hooked a whopper there :D

Rosevidney1

22nd May 2012, 18:57

The Victory Services Club at Marble Arch has members from all services, commissioned and non commissioned.

ICBM

22nd May 2012, 20:10

I do wonder that if they waived the Membership Fee, made Membership Numbers one's Service No. and reduced the rate to around £70 pppn whether use would increase? Many Service personnel need to overnight in London and to do so here at such a price would save money and keep current military associated with the Club in far greater numbers.

Keep the annual fee and all Officers are life members while they continue to pay. Revenue is constant because the deal is attractive.

NutLoose

22nd May 2012, 21:23

Surely you could take in DHSS referees, they tend to pay more than that for B and B to house them, you should be able to make a good profit... :E

I only ever went in the Union Jack club one and it reminded me of a YMCA... Never went back.

Stanley Eevil

23rd May 2012, 06:58

Travel-lodge, 5 mins walk from Waterloo Station, one double room including TV, shower room etc was £30.00 (saver rate, no ability to cancel) when I stayed in London recently.
Clean room, comfortable bed. My wife and me were very happy with it.
Why pay more?

teeteringhead

23rd May 2012, 07:02

reduced the rate to around £70 pppn ... don't know about your other suggestions ICMB, but I'm staying there tomorrow night for £68! ;)

Whenurhappy

23rd May 2012, 07:12

At present it is difficult to book the RAF Club for a duty stay through DHRS - moreover they don't quote a B&B rate and the single rooms are rather small. I'm a great supported of the RAF Club and try to use it as often as possible - but through DHRS I can stay in a good hotel in Kensington for slightly less.

Alexander.Yakovlev

23rd May 2012, 07:24

Malmaison with military discount £70 per night B&B in a lovely 4* hotel. Doesn't even compare to the RAF Club. I agree that DHRS is definitely the way forward for them. I am not a member, and to be honest, from the tours I have had, I do not really see what it offers me.

Biggus

23rd May 2012, 08:49

With the continued reduction in the size of the RAF, and the general decline of mess life as such (many are like ghost ships these days), I wonder how the RAF club sees itself surviving in say 30 years time - or is it relying on squeezing as much money out of the few octogenarians who will still remain, like BEagle, as possible?

Out of interest, while discussing this thread with a (much younger) colleague at work the other day, he said that when he was going through IOT the students were "told" by the staff to sign the RAF Club application forms - that's one way of keeping the numbers up.....and least until they are sensible enough to leave of their own accord!

Anecdotal I know, but no less valid for that....

Tankertrashnav

23rd May 2012, 08:51

Further to Rosevidney's post, I was talking to a chap at the recent V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/index.html) who told me he had finally binned his RAF Club membership and had gone over to the United Services Club, which he reckoned was around £40 pa as opposed to £130 plus. As far as I'm concerned the main problem with the RAF club is the cramped size of the majority of its bedrooms, and thats a problem they can't fix. The Premier Inn room I stayed in recently was a palace by comparison, at half the cost.

I'd miss the Cowdray Room though.

Alexander.Yakovlev

23rd May 2012, 09:41

It may of course just be possible that JOs don't want to spend their weekends off with the ageing club membership in a dated bed and breakfast environment?

Al-bert

23rd May 2012, 12:12

I binned my membership of thirty years after being told off for not wearing a jacket and tie at breakfast. RAF club - an outdated hangout for geriatric air ranks and their admirers! :cool: The Cowdray room afternoon tea was good though and very 1950's in a nostalgic sort of way :D

Heathrow Harry

23rd May 2012, 12:36

I was in the Club the other day and TBH it looked like the Sunshine Home for Aviators

Everyone under 45 was a member of staff

they will have to open up the membership or it will disappear in 15 years

Red Line Entry

23rd May 2012, 14:22

Albert - that happened to me too, but to be fair it was in the late '80s. Things are more relaxed now.

Pontius Navigator

23rd May 2012, 17:39

I go for the tea in the Cowray room not the bedrooms but I find the chairs very slippy, maybe so you slide off if you doze off.

The Running Horse is always consistent though. Cold, uncomfortable, and indifferent food. Sad that the other restaurant down there closed as the food there was always much better.

LeggyMountbatten

23rd May 2012, 21:15

Al-bert, that must have been a while ago...there are still more relaxed minima on trial, for example here Log In | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/groups/123109074049/)

Riskman

23rd May 2012, 21:36

I agree with Groucho Marx "I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members".

I exclude the 'Good Morning Chris Club' from that rule because I'm a member, no fees were involved and I don't have to attend an AGM:ok:

R

BEagle

23rd May 2012, 22:16

PN, that was the 'Buttery' and I certainly agree with you regarding the Ambling Nag.

I'm fine(-ish) with the rather small rooms for a night or two and breakfast is invariably superb, particularly now that the dress regs are more relaxed.

However, the new trial dress regs, whilst welcome, do seem a bit complex to me - 'smart trousers (including chinos) a collared shirt (with or without a tie) and appropriate footwear' is OK in the Cowdray Room until 1830 but then it's 'smart trousers (not jeans), a collared shirt with tie and appropriate footwear' (no jacket required at this time of year).

Does 'chinos' include 'jeans' - or does 'smart trousers' include 'chinos' after 1830....:\

So is the real difference a tie after 1830, or what?

People draw comparisons with the Premier Inn. However, one is a club and the other a good value hotel. So you cannot really make a true comparison.

But how to encourage more entitled folk to join is indeed a difficult question.

Al-bert

24th May 2012, 00:06

LeggyMB...it was earlier this century I admit, but not so very long ago when you're my age! ;)

Airborne Aircrew

24th May 2012, 01:00

I'm fine(-ish) with the rather small rooms for a night or two

[Snip]

Does 'chinos' include 'jeans' - or does 'smart trousers' include 'chinos' after 1830....

If you need to worry about such trivia you're probably better off paying the extra few quid and staying in a decent hotel...

Just sayin'... ;)

Adam Nams

24th May 2012, 06:03

It may of course just be possible that JOs don't want to spend their weekends off with the ageing club membership in a dated bed and breakfast environment?

... any mess, anywhere in the UK.... :sad:

Alexander.Yakovlev

24th May 2012, 06:33

AN,
I think you may have missed my point. JOs don't want to spend their free time in these environments. The dress regulations are over complicated and too formal for those that wish to use the Club when taking a weekend jaunt into London. From what I understand as well, too many of the members are made up of retired senior rank's children who are non-serving. Surely this can't be in the ethos of the club? Turn it into an all ranks RAF club just like the splendid VSC. Better to keep it service than to introduce honking civvies to bolster the membership.
Out.

Whenurhappy

24th May 2012, 07:15

To be fair to the Club, they are very forward-looking - and trying to anticipate the membership challenges of the years ahead.

Yes the club does seem to be the habitue of elder members, but on Fridays and Sundays there is an influx/outflux of young blades and their fruity girlfriends. They probably don't use the Dining Room or the Cowdray Room (or my favourite - the Library) but these areas do well during the week because of the elder members.

By the way,

Does anyone else get long, rambling emails for a retired Fg Off about declining standards at the Club? Perhaps it's one our members here?

BEagle

24th May 2012, 07:19

The dress regulations are over complicated and too formal for those that wish to use the Club when taking a weekend jaunt into London.

Alexander.Yakovlev, could you describe what you would consider to be acceptable regs for the weekend? Currently, from 1630 on Friday until 1000 on Monday, the minimum standard throughout the entire Club is:

Smart trousers (including chinos) or smart jeans (without rips or tears) a collared shirt (with or without a tie), clean trainers, sneakers and polo–neck sweaters.

'Polo neck sweaters' - good grief, how very Simon Dee!

So, no T-shirts, sweatshirts or even polo shirts, it would seem.

Barksdale Boy

24th May 2012, 07:26

Simon Dee was, I think, a corporal photographer.

STANDTO

24th May 2012, 07:30

The VSC is great - no airs and graces, but a lot of tradition all the same. I looked at joining the In and Out, but their annual membership was a touch high for the amount of time I spend in the Smoke. As a senior cop they would consider an application from me. Maybe something similar could be a way forward for the RAF club. I'd give them £ 134 a year just to expand my options. I like to know where I am going and what I am getting (OCD) rather than having to trawl lastminute and expedia to try and get a decent deal.

Alexander.Yakovlev

24th May 2012, 10:27

Polo shirts to me would be acceptable in line with most mess regs at weekends. Clearly having members use the Club at weekends is great, but not ideal if there aren't making use of the full facilities.

In fairness to the Club, the offer of free event hire for a room is a fantastic.

Basil

24th May 2012, 10:58

So, no T-shirts, sweatshirts or even polo shirts, it would seem.
I think I asked about polo shirts and was told they were acceptable at the w/e.

Whenurhappy

24th May 2012, 11:02

Free room hire....well, sort of. A couple of weeks ago I was back in London and wanted to hold a reasonably discreet meeting with a visiting academic. My immediate thought was to use the RAF Club and I enquired whether I could use one of the small meeting rooms - no need for beverages, VAs - just 2 chairs and a table. As a member I was quoted GBP50 for 2 hours use of the President's Room.

I declined and we met in the business suite in the basement. Luckily tehre was no one else around and the meeting went well - and there's free tea and coffee too!

Basil

24th May 2012, 11:14

Just looked at online booking tomorrow, Friday 25th May for two people, two nights.

Travel Lodge: £239.90 Room only. WiFi £10/24hrs
RAFC: £240.00 B&B Free WiFi

No contest!

Basil

24th May 2012, 11:23

Last year I wrote the following to the Club Management Trustees:

Thank you for the letter from our Chairman asking for comment upon safeguarding the future of The Club.
I am thankful and relieved that we have trustees and staff members who are prepared to devote their time and effort to securing our viability.

Merge with another suitable club? Not one with huge debts and no assets.
Club with own freehold premises which could be let?
Only suitable one I can think of is the Naval & Military Club and I have no idea of their circumstances.
In any case that would perhaps generate an undesirable spike in membership numbers.

I'd agree with expansion of membership to air-minded organisations.
If airline pilots were included they may have to curb their 'room party' culture in the interests of late night peace in the accommodation corridors :)

I would be happy with PC move to library but would not wish the library to be used for meetings.
An alternative would be to use the Club Bar as a PC room, leaving the library as at present.
Probably advisable to leave one PC in the study.
Convert TV room seems a good idea.
The club facilities could be enhanced relatively cheaply by converting one of the squash courts, the one without a gallery, into a small gymnasium.

My wife suggested an increased membership subscription. My view is that, although some clubs have far higher fees and subscriptions than the RAFC, I don't think increasing those would be beneficial inasmuch as it would tend to discourage potential members who are not within easy reach of London.

I presume that all efforts have been made to attract retired officers, perhaps using MoD records. If that constitutes a breach of confidentiality, I wonder if MoD would undertake to address and mail invitations to join on repayment by The Club?

No matter what is decided, may I suggest that non-RAF membership is phased in under control and limited to avoid having too many members which would lead to unacceptable pressure on facilities such as our bedrooms.

Alexander.Yakovlev

24th May 2012, 13:24

Basil,

At those prices somebody is having your eyes out right in front of your face. Try laterooms.com.

Basil

24th May 2012, 14:00

laterooms.com
B&B £210 & £220 north of the A40
I'd still prefer The Club.

Pheasant

24th May 2012, 14:52

UJC £232 room only + free wifi

RAF Club = Very good value

Alexander.Yakovlev

24th May 2012, 14:54

We clearly aren't looking at the same site because I am seeing central hotels 4* and 5* for £200 - £240. Have you tried the military discount at many of the good hotels such as Malmaison or St Pancreas Renassance Hotel? Maybe you are just magnetically drawn to the RAF Club, in which case good luck to you.

Alexander.Yakovlev

24th May 2012, 15:09

"In any case that would perhaps generate an undesirable spike in membership numbers."

Surely that is what the RAF Club needs to achieve!!!!! More members!

Ron Cake

24th May 2012, 16:36

I'm dismayed to hear that the Club dress code has been relaxed to allow open necked shirts. The point about being tieless is that is exposes the neck. And, without a rule to determine how many shirt buttons should be fastened, it risks revealing part of the upper torso. While such a display may be acceptable on the squash court it is not appropriate for Club rooms particularly where ladies may be present.

The answer is to bring back the cravat; a very attractive neckwear item popular with young officers in my day. Worn with a blazer and 'ratting' cap at station sports day, it lent an air of seemliness to the occasion.

I have to say that for several months on first being commissioned I wore a cravat in bed. It was a matter setting the right tone in the presence any of the Mess batting staff who might enter my room. There were standards in those days.

DC10RealMan

24th May 2012, 17:00

Gentlemen.

Please excuse a mere civilian from intruding on this Military forum but I wish to ask a genuine question.

If the RAF Club wishes to attract more members to maintain its viability and has to resort to advertising for Civil Servants, why does it not open its membership to existing non-officer RAF personnel?

I spend quite some time every year at RAF Linton on Ouse and meet all ranks of personnel and the enlisted members of staff appear quite civilized, well dressed, and well educated. At Linton there is also a dining facility used by all ranks and it seems to work quite well.

After all this is the 21st Century and enlisted personnel's money is as good as anyone's, isn't it?

Exascot

24th May 2012, 17:06

'...without a rule to determine how many shirt buttons should be fastened, it risks revealing part of the upper torso. The answer is to bring back the cravat.'

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32684975/Cravat.jpg

Tankertrashnav

24th May 2012, 17:20

why does it not open its membership to existing non-officer RAF personnel?

OK, who's going to stick his head above the parapet and answer that one?

Come on Beags, or Pontius, this seems right up your street!

BEagle

24th May 2012, 17:44

It was bad enough when they started letting in Supplementary List people..... Henlow oiks and the like...:( Some probably attended grammar schools, whatever those are.

No, of course that wasn't serious. But the question of eligibility has been raised oft times and simply does not warrant repetition.

Clearedtoroll

24th May 2012, 17:44

Whenever the issue of opening the RAF Club to non-officers (or similar debates about messes on stations), there is always the assumption from some that the system is some obsolete classist conspiracy by officers to keep 'them' out. It wrongly assumes JRs, SNCOs and WOs would like nothing more than to spend their social time with officers if only we would let them... Which is clearly not true.

I had a great bunch of people (with the odd exception) in all the jobs I did as a JO flight commander. Sometimes, we also had some good nights out as a flight... But not every Friday. My JRs would have had no desire to hang out with the boss all the time and vice-versa. It's nice for everyone to get away from the structured heirachies of the day job and relax. Ironically perhaps, the mess system allows that (sort of).

Applying the same principle to a London club, one of my corporals on a romantic weekend with his wife does not wish to stay somewhere where he might see me and a load of other JOs smashed at a sqn reunion... And vice-versa.

ratty1

24th May 2012, 21:23

Travel Lodge: £239.90 Room only. WiFi £10/24hrs
RAFC: £240.00 B&B Free WiFi

No contest!

Quite right to. Travel Lodge any day as the RAFC is a complete dump.

brit bus driver

24th May 2012, 22:28

Ratty....you owe me a new keyboard...this one's now covered in ejected Shiraz!!

:ok:

salad-dodger

24th May 2012, 22:37

Applying the same principle to a London club, one of my corporals on a romantic weekend with his wife does not wish to stay somewhere where he might see me and a load of other JOs smashed at a sqn reunion... And vice-versa.
what an incredibly stupid bit of logic. Would anyone, regardless of rank, wish to see a load of work colleagues whilst on a romantic weekend away with his wife? No, thought not.

If the RAF Club wishes to attract more members to maintain its viability and has to resort to advertising for Civil Servants, why does it not open its membership to existing non-officer RAF personnel?
The general feeling seems to be that civil servants, airline pilots, police and various other groups would be welcome in the RAF Club before other members of the RAF

S-D

Seldomfitforpurpose

24th May 2012, 23:56

If the RAF Club wishes to attract more members to maintain its viability and has to resort to advertising for Civil Servants, why does it not open its membership to existing non-officer RAF personnel?

Because, like the modern day Officer the rest of the RAF would look at the deal on offer and very quickly work out it is pants and only the "status" motivated few would fall for it :ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose

24th May 2012, 23:58

Just looked at online booking tomorrow, Friday 25th May for two people, two nights.

Travel Lodge: £239.90 Room only. WiFi £10/24hrs
RAFC: £240.00 B&B Free WiFi

No contest!

Now add your annual subscription fee and the real cost is :p:p:p

XFTroop

25th May 2012, 01:01

[QUOTE][/why does it not open its membership to existing non-officer RAF personnel? OK, who's going to stick his head above the parapet and answer that one?
Come on Beags, or Pontius, this seems right up your street! QUOTE]

Ok TTN, not one of your preferred respondees but of the same vintage at a guess:ok:.
I've been lurking on this thread for a while and as I've been a member of the Club for some 40+ years since my attestation in 1968 (AOTS Church Fenton:bored:) and have continued now some 10 years since retiring in 2002, I feel qualified to comment.
In my opinion the history, the location and the facilities offered make it an undeniable asset for those lucky enough to be members. Although my usage of the club has only been once every couple of years (on average), I am happy that I have had my moneys worth.
I last used it a year or so ago and I booked in an old schoolmate (we were attending a reunion) who happened to be an ex FAA Bucanneer pilot. He was extremely impressed and as he had no knowledge of any similar RN facility, he enquired if he could apply for membership.
In light of this my suggestion is that membership of The RAF Club (OFFICERS for the use of:D) be offered to all serving and retired COMMISSIONED aviators of British or Allied forces.
In closing, can I suggest that all those moaning detractors, as well as the lesser oiks who do not qualify for membership, kindly poke off from this thread and join something like the Travel Lodge Club or similar, if you can even qualify for that:D.

XFT (now expecting some incoming:E)

Airborne Aircrew

25th May 2012, 01:41

Applying the same principle to a London club, one of my corporals on a romantic weekend with his wife does not wish to stay somewhere where he might see me and a load of other JOs smashed at a sqn reunion... And vice-versa. Who on earth takes their wife or girlfriend to the f:mad:g Air Force club for a romantic anything... Of course, that might explain all the dewy eyed bovines most of the officers seemd to end up hitched to.

XFT:

The RAF Club (OFFICERS for the use of:D)It might come as a shock to you but in the RAF you upper crust chaps make up a minority... So you should probably find a name that more reflects the meke-up of the club. As to the rest of your bait... Amateurish at best, stick to lurking... :ok:

BusterHot

25th May 2012, 03:54

I last stayed in the RAF Club in about 1978 if my memory serves me correctly; the experience was dire. I think I tried to on several occasions after that but I could never get in due to the fact that most of the rooms were taken up by people at MOD using it as cheap London accommodation during the week. To add insult to injury, the dress regulations were archaic,and when I married a WRAF Air Traffic controller, she wasn't allowed into one of the bars. For the amount I was paying, I considered the whole place a joke,and for the "female in the bar" issue, I, along with a fair number of others, resigned.

Yes, it's a prime piece of "Real Estate". It's a place the RAF should be proud of and it needs to be preserved for generations to come. But come on, it needs to get with the times.

I left the RAF in 1988 and went into Civil Aviation. In the late 90's, a fellow company pilot that I'd served with on a couple of stations tried to persuade me to rejoin. I looked into it but the fee was exorbitant and with the experiences I'd had in trying to get into the place previously, coupled with the quite ridiculous dress regulations, I just laughed and tossed the whole package in the bin. I mean, come on, who wears a jacket and tie for breakfast?

Whilst throwing open the membership to fellow Navy and Army Pilots is one thing, suggesting that the membership be expanded to include Civil Servants is a joke. I would doubt many could name a RAF aeroplane other than the Spitfire or Typhoon, a Squadron other than 617 and few would have any grasp of the hardships and sacrifices that many of the members of the services have had to endure at various times over the last 90+ years.

In my case, I never went to war (I just spent about 6 months of my life sitting on QRA and saw a few Russians now and again), but to anyone that's been shot at in the Middle East or Afghanistan, or anywhere else before, or after come to that, it's an insult.

It seems to me that the RAF as whole needs to canvas opinion as to where is sees IT'S club going in the future, both from present AND past Officers. I for one would rejoin in a heartbeat if I thought it was good value for money. I would need to be convinced that I had a fair chance of being able to stay there at most times and not be blocked by people using the place a convenience. And I would also need to be convinced that it's thrown off it's "Fuddy Duddy" image and I could go there with a guest, reasonably and smartly attired and feel comfortable and not as some "Junior Officer Riff Raff" that didn't make it to the higher echelons................:yuk:

And what better way to try and sort things out than launch an opposing campaign? And if you want a person to front it up that the majority of RAF people know and respect, why not try and enlist the support of Cliff Spink for a start?!!!

BEagle

25th May 2012, 06:22

I could never get in due to the fact that most of the rooms were taken up by people at MOD using it as cheap London accommodation during the week.

Fewer people at the Monastery these days, so fortunately fewer use the Club in the manner you describe. But this could well pose a problem if too many MoD civil servants are allowed to join.

To add insult to injury, the dress regulations were archaic,and when I married a WRAF Air Traffic controller, she wasn't allowed into one of the bars.

Fortunately, that archaic 'old duffers only' bar is no longer.

I mean, come on, who wears a jacket and tie for breakfast?

That is no longer a requirement - casual dress is fine. And breakfast is truly superb.

FantomZorbin

25th May 2012, 06:45

XFTroop ... spot on :ok:

BEagle ... And breakfast is truly superb ... oh true, very true!!:E

Lima Juliet

25th May 2012, 07:13

As someone who will be staying there within the next 72 hrs and Mrs LJ will be staying there on a London night out within the next week, I feel I should add my two-penneth in support of the Club.

It might have dress regs that make some people's toes curl - but maybe some inward navel gazing is required as to your own personal standards? After all is a shirt, a pair of smart trousers and shoes really too much to ask? It is after all a Club and if you want to see more restrictive rules have a look at those listed here: List of London's gentlemen's clubs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_London's_gentlemen's_clubs)

I also like the idea of Mrs LJ staying somewhere safe and away from the detritus of society that can frequent cheap hotels (prostitutes, drug pushers and people who have no respect for others).

Yes, they don't always have a room, but so do other places I have to book. I also slide in there without staying for a cheeky pint or lunch or even breakfast, knowing I won't have to queue and the quality is a known quantity. That is also a perk of membership as is the library or just using it as an RV for friends or colleagues.

I have been a member for 24 years and hope for a further 24 - well done RAF Club :D:D:D:D

LJ

Whenurhappy

25th May 2012, 07:16

BusterHot: The Club has moved with the times and I suspect that you would not recognise it from your experiences of over 30 years ago.

As I've pointed out on similar threads a year or so ago, I hosted my foreign Staff Course syndicate and their wives to afternoon tea in the Cowdrey Lounge. They were gob-smacked and subtley taook photos of everything and bemoaned the fact that none of them (save the Italian) had anything like this in their respective Home states. Even the dour German Luftwaffe Colonel appreciated the many homages to British Air Power that adorn the walls. He made a very telling comment: 'we are not allowed to celebrate courage and bravery - even today.'

Several of them have returned to London and I have fixed accommodation for them at the Club.

Soft power, I think it's called.

PS: LJ Yep - I've had some awful experiences at otherwise good hotels with misbehaving clientele.

Alexander.Yakovlev

25th May 2012, 07:28

Just a shame that us "moaners" are the reason the RAF Club is on its knees. Modernise or die. Sadly it is at deaths door.

Whenurhappy

25th May 2012, 07:47

AY - But the club isn't on its knees - not by any stretch. It generates a healthy surplus, facilites are being constantly upgraded and occupancy remains extremly high. Go there any day of the week and sit on one of the comfy leather chairs by the Gates and watch the activity - a constant flow of people arriving for seminars and meetings, folk checking in and out, Officers and their families arriving for Lunch, fresh from investitures at the palace, members dropping off/picking up luggage...apart from the military uniforms, this could be the lobby of an up-market London hotel.

The Board - all RAF personnel - are anticipating falling membership numbers in the decades ahead and are planning for this. In spite of the fiscal crisis, Club membership across London remains very boyant.

Heathrow Harry

25th May 2012, 07:53

Ron Cake wrote

"...... risks revealing part of the upper torso. While such a display may be acceptable on the squash court it is not appropriate for Club rooms particularly where ladies may be present."

Ye Gods! presumably these easily shocked ladies go around London with a bag over their heads...................... some people need to get out more

Red Line Entry

25th May 2012, 07:59

Busterhot,

I salute you Sir! I once had an altercation with a Domino's manager in 1994 and have boycotted the company ever since - but 34 years and counting! Now THAT'S how to hold a grudge!

Alexander.Yakovlev

25th May 2012, 08:21

If the Club is fine then long may it continue under the fashion on which it has survived.

Al-bert

25th May 2012, 08:27

Applying the same principle to a London club, one of my corporals on a romantic weekend with his wife does not wish to stay somewhere where he might see me and a load of other JOs smashed at a sqn reunion... And vice-versa.

Good heavens, since when have corporals been permitted romantic weekends....what has the Royal Air Force come to?

and Heathrow.....irony and humour not your strong point? :ugh:

Whenurhappy

25th May 2012, 09:16

AY - exactly.

Because of the Club undergoes near constant change and innovation it has survived. Contrast that with the Cavalry and Guards (next door) that had to be bailed out by its members when the lease came up for renewal 10 years ago. Indeed the RAF Club considered taking over their premises!

Over the years I have attended 3 weddings at the Club, numerous dinners, 'Air Environment' seminars and conferences, farewell breakfasts, you name it...as well as staying there as often as circumstances permit. Indeed, when I arrived in London from overseas over 20 years ago, it was my weekend retreat from Mess life until I got established.

There have been minor niggles but overall it is a place I feel at home in and would rather pay money into a not-for-profit organisation that delivers a superior product than paying monies into some Hedge-fund owned global chain of hotels.

Alexander.Yakovlev

25th May 2012, 09:44

Hell, I may even dabble in renewing my membership myself...

teeteringhead

25th May 2012, 13:59

And last night's cheapo (see Post No 21) turned out as even better value - got upgraded to a double at no extra cost!! ;)

November4

25th May 2012, 14:47

A couple of years ago whilst a serving Cpl, I had a very nice lunch in the Club...:ok:

A room had been hired out to a training company for a course I was on.

navstar1

25th May 2012, 15:45

I totally agree I have been using the club for over 40 years and I am certainly NOT an old "Duffer!" Excellent value and something very special in that part of London. Believe me it has changed with the times and fully deserves the support of its members. Use it or loose it !!:ok:

BEagle

25th May 2012, 16:06

Ye Gods! presumably these easily shocked ladies go around London with a bag over their heads?

Traditional BOBFOC WRAF headdress, surely?

It is Friday, after all!

LeggyMountbatten

25th May 2012, 17:00

XFTroop http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/486072-raf-club-4.html#post7208994
Membership is already open to allied air forces (which I think is widely interpreted these days) Member Services | RAF Club, London (http://www.rafclub.org.uk/home/member-services)

LJ http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/486072-raf-club-4.html#post7209221
Mrs LM uses the club more than I do (all on the one membership fee) for most of the reasons you mention and really likes the place even though she has no services connections at all.

Whenuhappy http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/486072-raf-club-4.html#post7209224
Sign them up...

There's plenty of us more than happy with the place as it is today, it's a shame that people who had a bad experience 30+ years ago keep harbouring a grudge...move on, mate...

navstar1

25th May 2012, 17:13

So does Mrs C!! worth every penny for a happy wife!!:ok:

Lima Juliet

26th May 2012, 10:19

Stayed there last night following the first annual F3 reunion (a 11hr drinkathon!). Nice room with a bathroom for £68.50. Wore chinos and polo shirt throughout - no problems. Nice staff and overall a good experience (again!).

:D

LJ

Basil

26th May 2012, 20:33

Ron Cake,
bring back the cravat
I wasn't aware that it had gone.

ratty1,
the RAFC is a complete dump
Excellent! So I won't be seeing you there!

Seldomfitforpurpose,
Now add your annual subscription fee and the real cost is
Still a good deal.

BTW, do you know what my annual subscription is?

only the "status" motivated few would fall for it
Now you're just being silly.

BusterHot,
I last stayed in the RAF Club in about 1978 . . .
it needs to get with the times
Have you really thought that out and committed it to print?

Basil

26th May 2012, 20:56

The comments by trolls are good reason why we should not discuss this matter in public.
Some comment also suggests that we should be very careful to whom we extend the privilege of membership of an outstanding and exclusive club.

ratty1

26th May 2012, 21:17

we should be very careful to whom we extend the privilege of membership of an outstanding and exclusive club. http://mikefarrell.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/elitist-snob.jpg?w=500

thing

26th May 2012, 21:27

May I add as an ex ranker that I see no reason why commisioned ranks shouldn't have their own exclusive club. It's one building among thousands to stay at in London.

Although it's a long time since I left the services and now count ex members of all ranks (including the very highest) as my flying companions; I still think that there has to be some differentiation between serving members. It's how the system works most efficiently.

Or maybe I'm just an old guy now.

Shack37

26th May 2012, 22:14

Some comment also suggests that we should be very careful to whom we extend the privilege of membership of an outstanding and exclusive club.

:rolleyes::{:confused:

You may now officially revoke this privilege in the unlikely event one ever was entitled to it:ouch:

Basil

27th May 2012, 09:36

You may now officially revoke this privilege in the unlikely event one ever was entitled to it
Err, may we have that in English, please?

Basil

27th May 2012, 09:50

thing,
Thank you. Back in the day, we went partying with our NCO aircrew and, in another appointment with airmen and NCOs in ATC but I guess that will come as a shock to some of the trolls on here.

p.s. One of my local friends is ex RAF NCO aircrew - and also an ex BA captain, successful businessman and one of the most highly motivated and hardworking people I know.

Exascot

28th May 2012, 07:19

One of my local friends is ex RAF NCO aircrew - and also an ex BA captain, successful businessman and one of the most highly motivated and hardworking people I know.

What has this got to do with the price of a loaf of bread?*

Hitler was a corporal and went into officers' messes but still did not qualify as a member of the Royal Air Force Club.

*1.20€ at the family bakery next to my office - I can smell it baking.

Is that enough of thread drifts :cool:

Heathrow Harry

28th May 2012, 07:45

did he ever apply?

Basil

28th May 2012, 09:59

What has this got to do with the price of a loaf of bread?
The point, dear Ascot, was to educate our resident troll(s) as to the RAF relationship between officers and NCOs.
p.s. What's that in Drachma?
p.p.s. Getting close to Godwin's law there :)

HH, did he ever apply?
If that referred to my last post then no, not to my knowledge. If he did then I would sponsor him.

Exascot

28th May 2012, 10:37

What's that in Drachma?

1.20€ would have been 340 Drachma. In a year it will be about 2,000 :E

HH, did he ever apply?

I think HH was referring to my Godwin drift!

Basil

28th May 2012, 12:16

The Adolph I regret missing in the RAFC was Adolph Galland when he visited.
Regrettably, also missed a dinner speech by a much reviled 1960s politician whose name I won't mention for fear of degenerating this thread. Hmm, perhaps I'll go and stir elsewhere. ;)
No, much as I've put it off, that seized caliper on the 16yo E320 calls :{

Melchett01

28th May 2012, 12:43

Eden would have gone down a storm amongst the Club's Daily Mail readers.

Basil

28th May 2012, 13:50

amongst the Club's Daily Mail readers.
Yes, it's there, together with The Guardian, The Times, The Telegraph etc etc and also a selection of magazines.

SOSL

28th May 2012, 16:31

Guys who know the RAF Club like it. Idiots who don't know it don't like it.

jindabyne

28th May 2012, 16:54

That about sums it all up SOSL:D

Exascot

28th May 2012, 17:00

Guys who know the RAF Club like it. Idiots who don't know it don't like it.

I wish I had paid more attention at school, that would probably sound impressive in Latin.

Stand by for a Latin scholar.

Al-bert

28th May 2012, 17:24

What about the idiots who know it and don't like it - we count too! :8

Wrathmonk

28th May 2012, 17:46

Stand by for a Latin scholar.

Or Google Translate:

"Guys qui scire Quisque Club similis. Stolidi, qui non agnoscunt non placet."

teeteringhead

28th May 2012, 18:23

Allowing some artistic licence and using established phrases, de gustibus non est disputandum works quite well, as does suum cuique

Barksdale Boy

29th May 2012, 01:17

Quot homines, tot sententiae.

Union Jack

29th May 2012, 10:21

What about the idiots who know it and don't like it - we count too!

Presumably their motto is "Veni, vidi scarperi"?

Jack (who has thoroughly enjoyed being a guest at the Club)

PS The third last word of Wrathmonk's Latin translation sounds splendidly descriptive ....

rolling20

29th May 2012, 11:17

Client of mine (Very nice lady) mentioned to me her father was an X Canberra Nav, did some 20 years from the mid 50's. She didn't think he was ever a member. She was interested in joining the Club.

Knowing the Club are looking to expand the membership , I phoned to ask what she need do.

Club: Well she can't join in her own right, but her father can join ( He must be late 70's), then after 2 years membership, he can apply for her to become a member!

I think she's now looking at the 'In and Out'. They are recruiting and you don't need be an X member of the forces! However, we are lunching at the Club soon and she is looking forward to it.

Seems a bit odd not to let in Service offspring ahead of Civil Servants.

BEagle

29th May 2012, 14:09

Seems a bit odd not to let in Service offspring ahead of Civil Servants

Hardly. An MoD CS who has worked in the Box with many serving RAF officers is rather more deserving than some scaley brat who perhaps hasn't had anything to do with the military for decades.

Nice though your client might be, her father left the RAF almost 40 years ago having never been a Club member, apparently. Why should that give her any priority over a current MoD CS?

rolling20

29th May 2012, 14:32

Don't think she'd appreciate being called a scaley brat old boy.
I think the thing is that she didn't know or realise that the club existed. Which I'd imagine could be true of a number of potential members out there.
She'd like to join the club, but cannot, thus the 'In and Out' offers a more attractive proposition.

ratty1

29th May 2012, 16:22

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s320x320/562460_10151019490618968_1548553214_n.jpg

1.3VStall

29th May 2012, 20:10

What, exactly, is the point of continuing this thread?

Those of us, who appreciate the Club, will continue to use it and the Trustees are working to ensure that its future is assured.

All those who continue to say how anachronistic the Club is, how it represents poor value for money and that they would never stay there are, or course entitled to their views.

Thank you for those views. Can you now please **** off to the ambience-laden Travelodge/Premier Inn and leave those of us who appreciate quality to enjoy our valued facility in peace?

Scuttled

30th May 2012, 00:18

1.3VStall

:D:D:D

Can we all stop now?

rlsbutler

2nd Jun 2012, 23:59

It is probably forty five years since my station commander instructed his officers to stump up two-thirds of a day's pay for club membership. Inertia (OK - momentum) has dictated that I have paid ever since. I have yet to see a club bedroom.

Deep into old dufferdom, I left London in 1990. I have tried to book a room for a week night perhaps a dozen times since then, usually at about a month's notice. No luck.

I assume that there are regular users who book early and often. I wonder if there might not be a limited entitlement for every member, that would require such users to take a back seat while occasionals like me get a turn.

BEagle

3rd Jun 2012, 07:27

As a member of an organisation which plans to hold an event at the Club later in the year, I received an e-mail recently, which included the following:

I have also reserved a block of RAF Club bedrooms (including two doubles) for long-distance travellers who are not members of the Club

Personally, I don't think that 'block bookings' are very fair. Particularly when some have been made for people who aren't even Club members. Those Club members attending the event should certainly be capable of making their own bookings.

In 1979 I managed to book myself and a friend plus her mother into the Club when they'd been stranded thanks to the Laker DC-10 Skytrain grounding. I was told that normally only 1 guest was permitted, but that they would make an exception on this occasion.... Yet now it seems that people can make speculative 'block bookings' for non-members months in advance?

Lima Juliet

3rd Jun 2012, 08:45

Risbutler

Mrs LJ booked 3 weekends ago for a Monday night a week ago - no problem. I guess you're just unlucky? I've had about a 90-80% hit rate on securing a room, which is pretty good.

LJ

:ok:

Tankertrashnav

3rd Jun 2012, 09:07

Can you now please **** off to the ambience-laden Travelodge/Premier Inn and leave those of us who appreciate quality to enjoy our valued facility in peace?

Have to say that when my brother and I shared a twin room at the Reading Premier Inn last Saturday (£39) I was mightily glad that the room was at least 50% larger than the standard RAF Club room. Can't argue with the ambience point, but there are occasions like this (arrived at 11pm, left at 9am) when ambience is irrelevant and a comfortable night's sleep is all that's wanted. Always found Premier's staff very friendly and helpful too. I'll continue to use the RAF Club in London, but I wish I could afford one of the larger rooms or suites, so that I could swing the cat I always bring on my trips to town!