V1/V2

[spekesoftly]

Tuesday 5/3/02 CH4(UK) 20.00 - 21.00 'Battle Stations'

Hitler's Vengeance Weapons

(Originally scheduled for 19/2/02)

[CamelPilot]

Ummmmmm! That reminds me! Perhaps you would like to see this extract from a 'book' I have been writing for my grandson.. .. ."It was in June 1944 that the doodle-bugs (V1's) started, and there were daily stories of the terror they bought but up to now we had only heard them, or heard their explosions. We were not in "doodle-bug alley" exactly but many stopped their journeys around South London where we lived. News about them quickly got around in those days and every day brought more and more news about these "flying bombs". The radio gave reports about them but as they were arriving in great numbers it was impossible to individualise any of them. . .. .Then! One day in July!! My mother, my sister and myself were walking back from a shopping trip in Rose Hill, Carshalton, Surrey. Walking was the accepted mode of transport by then due an unreliable bus service. It didn't mean you had to like it though - and I certainly didn't!. .. .We were strolling past St. Helier Hospital, with it's pure white facade and associated buildings for doctors and nurses, which was very near to the same spot where my Dad took me to see the glow of Crystal Palace burning when I was five. . .. .Suddenly, we heard the distinctive engine sound of a V1 ("doodle-bug"). We looked around to see where it was and up, over open ground and still two or three miles away, we saw it, flying straight towards us! We thought it would just pass over us but my heart began thumping as the engine stopped. Now we knew what they meant when the engine stopped and it dived immediately. It was now diving to the ground - and it was diving down at us, fast! . .. .Both mother and sister were screaming. Perhaps I was too, I don't remember, but I was very scared. With incredible luck all we had to do was run 25 yards along the pavement - to two public underground shelters. Each had a steep slope down to the shelter and for some reason, which still baffles me, perhaps because it would be farther away from the impact, we passed the first entrance and entered the second one. But we made it - just! Half way down the slope the V1 hit and we fell as the ground shook. We tumbled and stumbled over each other, arms flailing and, by this time, my mother was screaming worse than before. The shopping we had collected burst from the bags and was going everywhere. Dust poured out of the ceiling cracks and covered us, all of us thinking that the roof was about to collapse. We all had cuts and grazes on different parts of our bodies plus some hard knocks. I remember I had two large bumps on my head, one on the front and one on the back, which were very sore I can tell you.. .. .After a few minutes, we gathered up our shopping and ventured out from our concrete protection to see what damage had been done. It was a terrible shock. The two storey doctor’s house, which had been standing only a few minutes earlier, was now completely gone! The nurse’s ten-storey building was now without windows, blown inwards by the blast from the bomb. The facade of the building had very large pieces of its lovely white coat gouged out by bomb splinters - leaving cement-grey holes, some as wide as three or four feet and there was dust and smoke all around us, and we had been exactly opposite - on the other side of the road!! Then the thought of what that meant struck my mother, she cuddled us very close – then we all started to cry, and continued to stare at the horror through the tears.. .. .As with all V1 bombs, it left little or no signs of a crater, unlike other bombs which we had seen and been very very close to. These flying bombs were designed to blast large areas. Indeed, other parts of the hospital was damaged and scarred with various shaped holes. Surrounding houses had their windows blown in by the blast, including houses half a mile away.. .. .The next day my mother made a decision that we should evacuate to Derby. This we did in just two days.". .. .I shall watch the programme to-night with some interest.

[GlueBall]

Camelpilot: Vivid memories. Well said.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hey Camel Pilot,. .. .Bet you and your old lady didnt have any . ." Councelling or shrinks " talking to you afterwards, or trips to the solicitors to claim something, not only have you have you kept your common sense, but also your brilliant memory, such a pity that todays civvies are not as strong.. .. .Why is it that when the bleeding heart society of today start to get all misty eyed over "the wrong" done to Germany by "Bomber Harris" do they forget the huge loss of life, and housing done by this and its sister weapon! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[astir 8]

Re V1's. .. .I worked on a farm in Sussex one summer back in the 1960's along with old Jasper (yes he really was called Jasper"). Do your own rural accent to the accompanying tale.. .. ."See that field over there. One of they Eytalian prisoners of war was ploughing it when one of they doodleybugs landed right on ee. They never found one bit of ee! Did we laugh!!!!". .. .I suppose he'd be arrested for anti-Italianism or something in our more sensitive day and age.. .. .Mind you you should have heard his views on the merits or otherwise of Eytalian and Jerryman POW's!

[No comment]

Camel, . .Nice post! I was born in St Helier hospital. Always interested in wartime histories of my local area!. .St helier does seem like a bit of an easy target. sticks out like a sore thumb!. .Mind you, I heard a rumour that they camouflaged it as the Luftwaffe used it as a convenient landmark...true?. .NC

[CamelPilot]

vfrpilot. .. .Very interesting to think about counceling and shrinks, they didn't exist of course, in today's market they do - in abundance. As kids we were rushed to the shelter most nights, had bombs land a hundred or yards or so away, and other places around us, had AA guns firing a lot, even had a Junkers 88 do a strafing run, and we just had to get on with it. More especially, get used to it. Not easy to do. But in a weird way, there was excitement too when I managed to "escape" from the shelter for a very short while in the hope I saw the guns hit a German aircraft caught in searchlights. Never did! Picked up plenty of shrapnel the next day though by trolling the streets at first light!. .. .But the fact is that there was no-one but your immediate family to whom you could gain comfort from. Most times it was just within your own childish reasoning.. .. .No comment. .. .Interesting to hear that you were born in St.Helier. As for the hospital being a guide for the Luftwaffe - I suppose anything is possible but the hospital never was camouflaged. It retained its whiteness throughtout the war. Just as it is today.. .. .Most people believe that the V1 which hit the hospital was aimed there. That, of course, is not true. V1's had no onboard "intelligence" to guide it onto a target, they were launched in the gneral direction with only a gyro to keep it flying, and when the engine stopped it was out of fuel and that's it. Therefore, calling it the forerunner of the cruise missile is not entirely correct either.. .. .It is possible that that particular bomb may have hopefully landed on Mallards, a secret factory hell bent on the manufacture of radios and other electronic systems. But that would be a bit far fetched too I expect.. .. .If you wish to hear more details of the where the bomb hit, or where the shelters are I will be happy to relate if you mail me.

[No comment]

Camel, . .I guess 18NM north of LGW would mean you still live in the area. (I'm about 17 miles N of LGW). I didn't know Mallards (Mullards??) made radios etc? I think it was bombed conventionally wasn't it? Obviously I wasn't around then so I'm going on records and word of mouth. However, its still possible to see some of the gap-toothed roads around Carshalton and Wallington, some of which are the result of the flying bombs especially in the roads near me where you'll see turn-of-century houses interspered with 1950s bungalows. Still can be quite moving for someone who didn't experience it first hand.. .Quite a nifty little invention on the Germans' part I suppose.

[CamelPilot]

Mullards! Yes, of course it was! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="redface.gif" /> . .. .There is book obtainable in the library - yours and mine by the sounds of it! Where you can research where all the bombs fell. There is also a book - the name escapes me - which pinpoints all the flying bombs that fell around Croydon, Sutton, Tooting etc., The only V2 I was personally aware of was in Tooting.

[Mycroft]

Technically the V1 was a cruise missile, but they have improved slightly since then! Ford produced a direct copy (Loon) with the idea if bombarding Japan, however they were never used due to lack of suitable launch platform; they appear to have decided to use a submarine (surfaced); possibly B29 wings were unsuitable for air launch (He 111 designed to carry bombs under wings). The descent was not determined by fuel load, but by the air-log (small 'propellor' in nose) registering mileage covered and cutting the elevator cable. The missile was then supposed to dive into the ground under power, however a design fault caused the engine to cut out, warning people on the ground. Due to the shallow angle of impact the crater was wide and shallow when compared with conventional bombs or V2. Some V1s were fitted with radio transmitters to enable point of impact to be tracked, however the Germans disregarded the information as their spies (controlled by british intelligence) led the germans to believe that V1s were flying further than predicted, as a successful attempt to get them to limit the range, so South London/Kent became the target rather than Marble Arch

[CamelPilot]

I think a visit to this site would be of interest. It also gives a perfect description of the V1.. .. .<a href="http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/v1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/v1.htm</a>

[Captain104]

Reading this thread I feel touched and a bit guilty. Born during the war, why guilty? There is this natural instinct to be loyal to your country. Especially risking life as fighter pilot during the cold war in late 60ies. And there is this awfull pain you feel that horror and devastation has been spread over vast parts of Europe in the name of that country.. .. .Raising my voice is just to insure you Camel Pilot and others, that all of my generation stands not for the Germany you are talking about here. If you could accept this, I felt a bit more comfortable. . .With this sometimes hidden "guilty feeling" we had to cope with since opening eyes. But compared with the horrors of war suffered by many it's ok.

[henry crun]

Captain 104, I can understand your feelings, but should you feel guilt by association ? not at all.. .. .My English ancestors did many things that, by todays standards, would be horrific and unjust, but I feel no guilt for their actions.. .. .I grew up in southern England during the war and have vivid memories of being machine gunned from the air, listening to V1's hoping that the noise would keep going until it was clear of us, watching massed formations of bombers flying overhead, and spending more nights in an air raid shelter than I care to think about.. .. .It was all a long time ago and although undoubtably some older people still harbour ill feelings because of the pain and suffering they underwent I would be surprised if any would blame the present generation.. .. .I know that the todays Germany bears no resemblance to the Germany of old.. .The fact that people like yourself can recognise the horror and destruction caused in your country's name is,IMHO, the safeguard that will ensure it doesn't happen again.. .. .I havn't explained myself as well as I would like but I hope you get the meaning.

[Captain104]

HC. .You explained yourself very well and I got the meaning.. .Regards

[CamelPilot]

Captain. I shall forget the 104 for the time being. I know who you are and some of your background, and I think I know how you feel. But please do not feel any guilt. It was not you or me who caused what happened to some of us. I bear NO malice, and I shall continue to enjoy the company of German friends I made there after the war, and since. . .. .What happened helps to ensure that it doesn't happen again. I want that for my grandchildren so that they can live a normal and happy life. Whether they do or not, as with me and my family, is sadly not in their hands.. .. .Like me just enjoy your retirement Captain, it's not so bad.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Camel Pilot,. .. .I think my father grew up not far from you, Epsom or some such suburb of London??. .. .Anyway he was a teenager during the war and RAF pilot some years after, he too has many stories of that period.. .. .Grandma (died about 10 years ago) took he and uncle Peter to the coast of Kent for summer holidays.......in 1940!!! You can imagine how exciting THAT would have been for a young aeroplane minded lad of 9 or 10!! He has vivid memories of that time including standing on some sort of Pier when from inland came the sounds of several aircraft. It was a German Bomber (I can't remember what kind) with two Spitfires sitting several hundred yards behind at 4 and 8 o'clock roaring along at less than 100'. It went straight over their heads and as soon as it was seawards of the beach each fighter in turn swooped down and made a firing pass, the bomber hitting the sea about 1/2 mile off the beach.. .. .Apparently Grandma had their Anderson Shelter chock full of 'elicit' stuff (fruit etc) for she was into a bit of black market bartering so they spent each air raid under the staircase.....sitting on the gas meter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .Grandad, who passed about 8 years ago, was in North Africa with the RAF after the BoB.. .. .The V1s never worried Grandma innordinately but when the V2s turned up she freaked and sent Dad and Peter off North somewhere for a few months. But then she missed her children so much she brought them back again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .The first V1 dad remember seeing was at night.. .. .Interesting times!. .. .Chuck.

[Kermit 180]

Very interesting comments and thoughts here. My Grandma used to live in Bucks, and remembered the 'doodle bugs' and the weird noises they made. My Grandad, who would have been a pilot if he hadn't suffered an abdominal injury from boxing, was a fireman during the war in London, and saw the results of the air raids.. .. .There is a V-1 'Doodlebug' on display at the Museum Of Transport And Technology (MOTAT) in west Auckland, alongside a Lancaster and various other rare aircraft. There is also a good display about Tempest V's operated by 486 (NZ) Squadron RAF, which destroyed hundred of these unmanned missiles.. .. .Kermie

[nosefirsteverytime]

very interesting recollections, I remeber my grand-uncle talking about them, fine when you can hear them, but bu99er if it switches off!. .. .I'm just glad Hitler thought of physics as a "jew science", and nuclear weapons as flights of fancy...... .. .Imagine, nuclear tipped v2s. A sobering thought. He had the scientists, and the resources, just didn't use them.... .. .Thank God!. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[henry crun]

NIG, I think you will find that he was trying very hard to use his scientists and the resourses they had available.. .. .Fortunately many of the scientists who could have helped had emigrated when they saw the writing on the wall in the 30's.. .. .The continued and eventually successful allied efforts to destroy the heavy water production in Norway was another factor that set them back a long time.. .. .When the allies overran the German facilities at the end of the war they were quite relived to find that the Germans were in fact a minimum of two years away from from producing any sort of atomic device, let alone a usable bomb. . .. .Also, some of the western scientists at the time believed that the Germans were heading down the wrong track in the method they were using.. .. .One only has to look at the size and weight of the first bomb produced in the US. . .Post war examination of the German efforts that far showed that they would not have had the means to lift such a device. Certainly the V2 could not have.

[Mycroft]

The Germans did not attempt to enrich Uranium, instead aiming for a Plutonium bomb (requiring Deuterium oxide -heavy water- as a moderator); however evidence suggests that they plannned to use a little boy-type weapon where 2 sub-critical masses are combined inside the bomb, bringing the total mass sufficient to cause the bang. War time American research suggested that with Plutonium you would get a smaller explosion first, destroying the weapon before a critical mass was achieved, altough the design did work with U238.. .The US bombs were not only much larger than any German a/c could carry (and far too heavy for a V2 or V1), but they were also far too large for either of the B29s two bomb bays and the a/c which dropped the bombs were specially modified, the bomb bays being combined (a drastic move as the wing spar crosses the fuselage between the bays) and defensive armament removed to reduce weight. At one stage it was even suggested a Lancaster be used, unfortunately rejected due to lack of USAAF experience with the a/c.. .. .There was an He177 prototype (V38) produced in 1942 with an enlarged bomb bay, supposedly for their atomic bomb. As a strange note, the German atomic bomb project was funded by the Post Office.. . . . <small>[ 17 March 2002, 16:41: Message edited by: Mycroft ]</small>

[OutsideLookingIn]

What memories! I remember my late father regailing me with tales of wartime Belfast when he was an apprentice at Shorts helping to build Sunderlands. His biggest story was the famous "night of fire" when German bombers set the city ablaze in late 1940. There were so many fires that an appeal for extra fire tenders caused a traffic jam on the Dublin/Belfast road!