OK no pilot. Then what??

[Tacitus]

Long time reader and member here, but i dont post often. I read the wannabes forums often and the majority of the posts by prospective pilots regarding the job market are quite depresssing. My question is this, i am 32 :{ and all my working life i was saving money in order to begin flight training debt free, which i thought was the sensible option. Now after reading thousand posts, even that i have the money, ive noticed
a. Im in the wrong side of the 30s, the ideal pilot should be young with money for the likes of RYR and EZY
b. In Europe there is no general aviation or airlines that would hire people like me
Quite frankly i always wanted to be a pilot and i was commited to saving money in order to do it. I dont want to be rich, i just dreamed of a career change. Now i am quite lost since i dont have a target. I want to make a career change (im in the armed forces,not UK) but i dont think that beeing a pilot is sensible option now. If there are any other people in the same boat as me please share your thoughts.
PS I hope i posted in the proper section of the forum

[sicamore]

Go for it. 32 is nothing. I got my cpl at 25 but didn't start flying professionally until 35. 4 years later have 3500 hours and command on regional turboprop and a blast along the way flying bush and seaplanes. Don't regret it a bit and future is bright.

Enthusiasm and dedication will go.a long way. Start with that and you can't go wrong. Try doing your training in the states and do your instructor rating. They then may hire you under student visa then. Great fun and you won't be one of the crowd

[DarkSoldier]

gave up a respectable career at 29, did all my training and got a job with RYR at nearly 31...things can certainly work your way but you know the deal - work hard and be in the right place at the right time. No one says it will be easy but at least try - you have to be in it to win it as they say, or you could be sitting in your armchair at 60 thinking 'what if'...

[Roope]

personally, i regret starting this whole thing. but after spending a lot of lot of cash, im kinda stuck. no way forward, and hell no turning back...

[dudubrdx]

I'm turning 27 next month, approaching 1000TT with nearly 300h on a regional TP, decent salary, repaying my loan and saving some money every month.
If I had to do it all over again, I would turn my back to avation without even thinking about it. And things are just going to get worse...

[taybird]

If I had to do it all over again, I would turn my back to avation without even thinking about it. And things are just going to get worse...

dudubrdx, why do you say this?

[Case One]

Tacitus, you're only guaranteed to live once so do what you think will make you happy.

Military flying is one thing, civil quite another. In the latter it seems to me that the heavier the equipment and the more you're paid, the less fulfilling the professional side of the job is. I now fly four engine long haul all round the world, a job many would envy, I hate it. Previously I flew much more interesting shaul haul jet and turboprop. Before that - great navy jet and chopper flying - but it was a young man's lifestyle.

I now have over 10,000 hours, I'm glad to have done what I have, but I'm actively aiming to retire from this racket at 55. If you're really thinking about airline flying I advise you stay in a real job, hopefully with a real career structure, and fly for fun. A modern airline "career" is more of a trap than a career. To be fair you'd be in this for twenty fewer years than me and may never get jaded.

But, as I say, do what you think will make you happy - you're not too old.

[pitotheat]

Flying is no longer the career people imagine. The relentless downward pressure on T&Cs mean that for many now it is years before they start making inroads into their mountain of debt caused by training loans. Please do all you can to find out the truth as life as a newly minted FO with a fATPL can be poorly paid, uncertain, stressful and hard. And remember how ever bad it is now the chances are that by the time you are qualified and looking for your first job the T&Cs will be even worse. Do not listen to the propaganda from the training organisations but instead talk to career advisors at BALPA/IALPA.

[Tacitus]

Thank you all for your kind inputs.
I have been reading the forum for a long time and ive noticed the dramatic changes in the profession, towards the worst. Personally i think that long are the days where a self improver or a person who saved hard in order to be a pilot could brake into an airline. Too sad. A part of me does not want to accept this, as i still want to train as a pilot but sometimes reality kicks in and its really hard. I truly hope the terms for this profession change for the better over the years and one day help my child be a pilot in a much better enviroment.

[atr42guy]

The majority of people here who aren't happy with their chosen career obviously haven't set their expectations correctly before starting out.

If you want to earn a lot of money, then get into investment banking or start a tech company which will be one of a million in being successful.

The fact is that most careers have their good points and bad points and it is up to you to decide what is important to you in life. If it is money, status, a stable routine or changing the world, then flying may not be for you.

99.99999% of people out there are in jobs that they either do not have passion for or didn't plan on doing when they were a kid. They drifted along in life and somehow fell into the job because it was easy.... and then stayed in it because that was easy to. They have no passion.

I've worked in 12 countries throughout the world from an investment banker on Wall Street to teaching scuba in Greece - and for me flying is the best job of all. I work on average 4 days a week and only 5 hours on those days. The rest of the time belongs to me to run my own business, write a book, design my dream house or whatever tickles my fancy. People dream of that as a retirement. And I get paid to fly, my passion as a kid. What could beat that?

I'd also suggest that if you have a backup career you can make good money at, then that is the way to go. I think that one of the reasons why are a lot of pilots are unhappy (aside from being prima donnas) is that they don't have anything to fall back on, they are stuck and feel ultimately helpless. I'd also suggest to them, that is what most of the working world feels like and to stop feeling like a victim.

Determine why you want to fly, and base your decision around that. If it is money, or status, then maybe flying isn't for you.

[Pistonking]

"Determine why you want to fly, and base your decision around that. If it is money, or status, then maybe flying isn't for you"

Very true ATR42Guy

[Tacitus]

"Determine why you want to fly, and base your decision around that. If it is money, or status, then maybe flying isn't for you"
Thats true. As a matter of fact i would love any flying job that comes with a livable salary. I dont want to be rich or fly immediatly 737s. I thought of making instucting a career but, correct me if im wrong, the instuctor salarys are minimal. I thought also of turboprops but as a matter of fact after reading various posts i concluded that there are jobs only for people who spend a fortune to the likes of CTC. If someone has a diferent perspective backed up by facts i would happily take it into account.
I said this because i always wanted to fly as a job, it was my target, but now i think that this target cant support my life and its really depressing.

[Artie Fufkin]

Whilst the perception is that pilots these days are badly paid and worked hard, the reality seems to be lagging somewhat behind the popular view.

In the UK pilots are still in one of the highest paid professions in the country (we were 4th in a survey done by HMRC, looking at job titles and the numbers on P60s). Hardly a claim for poverty.

Despite being on the summer schedule, I am on a stretch of 6 days off, have 3 days work mid week coming up, 4 hours work in each (duty hours, not flight hours) and then have 3 days off again next weekend. Ask all my mates who work in The City about long hours.

Whilst it appears to be difficult to get in to the profession, I flew with an FO freshly out of Oxford - all his classmates have jobs!

It might not be what it used to be, but it's still a great deal.

[Superpilot]

Artie,

Whilst the perception is that pilots these days are badly paid and worked hard, the reality seems to be lagging somewhat behind the popular view.

It's all fine and dandy upstairs if you're a senior and have been in the industry 8+ years. However, this isn't about pay. It's all linked to your second comment below:

Whilst it appears to be difficult to get in to the profession, I flew with an FO freshly out of Oxford - all his classmates have jobs!

I can assure you that whilst Mr 21 yo Middle-class Alpha Male from Oxford is getting all the jobs, hundreds of qualified 30-45 year old guys are getting overlooked because they have the Modular badge or have a little experience, or are a little more mature (with the added baggage/complexity of family life). These Oxford/CTC guys are cheaper for the airlines to hire, far less hassle and being in major debt they think not twice about the first deal that is laid out on the table.

For guys who couldn't afford Oxford as a flight school, life is not that rosy.

[Shane C]

Superpilot - Well said, especially in your second comment. This is the crux of the problem and for me, trying to decide which road to go down is a hard one!

You can either; go the Modular route, spend the same amount of money and get no where trying to find an airline job. Or try to go the ab initio route with OAA, CTC etc and you will have priority over all these other guys trying to get an airline job.

Sounds an easy decision but if you don't have the funding and you really want to get started, go the Modular route. In my view, it's a more fun way to get there but you will need a lot of luck, help and be in the right place at the right time.

I myself, am leaning to go the Modular route. The FTO I am looking at charges students £25k plus for the CPL/IR and have links with airlines and every student who went there now has a flying job. I'm going to give it a shot and well, hope for the best but plan for the worst if it doesn't work out.

[Memphis_bell]

Superpilot:

WELL SAID THAT MAN ! I could'nt agree more :-) I am a modular student doing my ATPL's, and i couldnt agree more with you.

I am a firm beleiver that there are jobs out there for everybody...in fact, if there isnt a job, create one ! :-) i am going to advertise the sh@t out of m qualifications when i qualify :-)

That was a brilliant reply superpilot, straight to the crux of the issue !!!

[Artie Fufkin]

Certainly wasn't my intention to turn this in to yet another dull Modular v Integrated "discussion".

I was merely responding to the OP who said that he has read pprune and come to the conclusion that he is too old to find work and that T&Cs are sufficiently rubbish to give up on aviation as a career.

Neither are true. Pilots have been telling the new intake that things aren't quite what they used to be for generations. And as for taking seriously anything said on pprune....!

FWIW I have met a bucket load of recently hired low-hour modular types (a fair few were the "wrong" side of 40!). The trick seems to be personal connections, working in some other capacity for your target airline, getting your name and face known. Or in other words, how it used to be! Sit at home blaming CTC if you prefer, it won't get you very far though.

[Tacitus]

Honestly, i am glad that a man from the industry says something encouraging. And i welcome anyone to prove that im wrong. But i still think for someone willing to be involved in aviation PPRuNE is a good source.Some people here have indeed very insightful and useful advice.

[JIC]

LISTEN TO ATR42GUY AND ONLY TO ATR42GUY!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

Sooooooooooooooo many nowadays become pilots because of the uniform and "glamour"!! And guess what sooooooooooo many get disappointed

To be a pilot is a life style not a job.

Not fancy or glamoures and your wife/future wife will hate it!

Good luck!!

[Piltdown Man]

Your age will not be the problem. Let's just say you pay for the best best training there is and you ace every exam and flying test. And that you pay for an MCC course, type rating and line flying experience. Now what are you going to do? The dreamers who give you the advice " follow your dream" and other such guff are not being fair. There are virtually no jobs for inexperienced pilots and even fewer that pay money. Move in only when the dreamers move out.

[sicamore]

Piltdown man>

Suggestion for you. Might be a bit hard, but here goes.

Think outside the box. Go to where the jobs are. Here in Africa there are tons of jobs for ambitious low time pilots. We have plenty of freshers from Europe who with the right attitude get work and leave with atp command time. Having worked in Asia the same thing is applicable. None I know went to oxford and most paid for themselves and more than a few are in their thirties or beyond.

As previously mentioned I also know plenty of pilots who trained and got instructor work in the states.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Get out more and stop expecting everything to be handed to you.

[timpav]

well said sicamore. Everyone finishes or befor they start expect to fly 777s and A380s to exotic locations all over the world. Like anyjob you start in the mail room and work up. The harder you work the doors will open. Everyone in this thread complaining about low pay and wives not being happy MAN UP. You do the job because you love to fly, not because you want the same image as Christiano Ronaldo. Stop blaming the world for your failiours.

[AudreyC]

Tacitus,
Thanks for starting this thread, it's cheering me up, or at least most of it is. I'm going down the same route as you, working in the oil industry just to get enough cash to fly. Currently half way through my ATPLs and been rejected to 3 pilot programs/aerial survey future pilot schemes. Still, I watch my big oil salaries come in and I do not regret for one second the amount that has come out for my training so far.
One day... Whether it is crop dusting in Sudan or surveying in Norwich, I will end up in that seat.
Don't give up. Seriously. I think that 20 years for now, you will regret it if you do.

[Case One]

A major reason for the current state of pilot conditions is that too many pilots confuse their job with their hobby and sell themselves short. They are usually either young and inexperienced or second career (relatively well off) pilots.

Long after the excitement has worn off it will remain your job.

By the way, I enjoy flying in my spare time and get paid for that too, but my real job is what many of you aspire to. I'm afraid that you will want to be well paid for that; not treated as cheap casual, whining labour by penny pinching and opportunistic management (whilst being subjected to regulation by fools).

Of course, several wise aviators did warn me when I started out, but like many of you, I knew better.

Anyway, the very best of luck to you all in navigating your careers through shark infested waters. Stay sharp.

[Cruise Zombie]

The elephant in the room that no-one ever really discusses on these forums is this:

After 10, 15, 20 years or more sitting in a cockpit with the number of hairy moments and close calls preying more and more on ones ageing mind, quite a few pilots get utterly sick of the experience. They know they cannot change profession without a massive pay cut so they direct their anger towards T & C's, rather than admit they hate the job they once loved.

T & C's are dropping and all pilots should fight to improve them or at least stop them from getting worse, but the cruelest consequence of reduced pay and no benefits is that it stops pilots from taking early retirement if they desperately want to.

" How selfish these miserable burnt out old captains are ", I hear wannabes cry, but when you become them what will your escape plan be?

Of course not every pilot feels like this, but many do and many are surprised by the way their own psyche turns against what they do for a living. If you feel yourself yearning to be on the ground as soon as possible as you reach top of climb, then your days as a pilot are numbered. Think about your escape plan now, because the company package you're probably on won't help you.

[Dogfactory]

My experience is:
I failed to enter military aviation 25 years ago, so I took other paths. Being fed up of everything else I now decided to go back to aviation and get a job in it. Aged 43, I'm obviously not looking to airliners but anything that keeps me near airplanes and flying and I really don't care of how much money I might earn.

My view is:
There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money. I think that if one looks at the lucrative side of it he will always be unsatisfied with the job (if he gets one) but if one loves flying and airplanes he will likely get a job in the industry and always be glad of what he does.

Expectations don't pay off... objectives do.

[Soab]

Forget the flying career, I wouldnt if I knew what it would be like.
I really enjoy flying, but flying an airliner from A to B, fixed routes, procedures, middle of night sign ons, etc is not enjoyable, at least once the novelty wears off.

If you have the money saved for the licence, plus buying type ratings each time you want to change companies, then better you hire or buy a light aircraft / homebuilt and fly for fun.
Hire a Piper Cub, buy an RV4 etc etc.
You could buy several with the money it will cost you to pursue a career.

Enjoy your flying

[wingreencard]

fly a caravan for fedex, the best job ever!

[The_Bruce]

As a very new PPL student and reading all these posts its difficult not to be downhearted, however, if flying is in your heart you have to do it. I'm a social worker and every day I work with people who tell they wish they had done this...or done that. I've spent too long doing the same and turning 31 this year I'm going for it, sod everyone that tells you its stupid...you only live once. Those that seem a little doom and gloom probably have seen the profession deteriorate but hey we may be young, inexperienced but we have a passion and that counts for a lot.

If you really want to you will get there, I believe that, I earn a reasonable salary but would quite happily half it to even fly cessnas because thats my dream. And I think you need to think outside the box, a lot of people seem determined to walk into a job with Virgin or BA straight away, great if you've £80k down the sofa to go down the Oxford route but most of us dont.

As useful as these threads are there are people out there that just want to tramp all over your dreams and tell you how awful it is...maybe I'm naive but I realised that the first thing I do at work is put on flight radar, I knew I had a problem. You could get run over by a car tomorrow....follow the dream. Right back to aviation law and meteorology :8

[Kelly Hopper]

There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money.

Wrong! I am one of many who think with a brain, not a heart. I work for a salary. No bucks, no buck rogers. I suggest if you want a lifetime career out of this business you think the same.

[wiggy]

My view is:
There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money. I think that if one looks at the lucrative side of it he will always be unsatisfied with the job (if he gets one) but if one loves flying and airplanes he will likely get a job in the industry and always be glad of what he does.



Which is exactly what Case One meant when he/she mentioned pilots "selling themselves short".

That sentiment ( doing it for the love) is why the industry has been able to shift the burden of training cost onto the student pilot, why T&Cs are plunging across the industry, and above all it's far to simplistic to think that the old :mad: like me are just whinging about T&Cs because we've had enough of flying. After 30 years at the sharp end I and many of my peer group will still own up to getting a kick out of the likes of a smooth landing on a c***py day, an on time arrival, sharing a beer with colleagues downroute, and saying goodbye to the passengers having delivered them safely to their destination.

But as far as the Boss is concerned - I tell him like every other Commercial Licence holder I'm a highly skilled professional and I'm b****ed if I'm going to work for steadily reducing T&Cs ...and IMHO the sooner we all start thinking along the same lines the better.

[Elias-8]

Hi everyone,

I will appreciate all ur advice. I have worked hard over the years to save for pilot training. I am now ready. From my research, i've concluded that in my position being 30 with 50,000 dollars, Canadian and Euro citizenship, the best route would be Integrated Trainin instead of modular. Right?

Moncton flight school in Canada is what Ive selected over OOA and CTC. They offer integrated training to get fATPL with TCIA and JAA. Cost 56,000 dollars. 1 year duration. They emailed me proffesional information. Now i will go vissit the school first.

I dont know if my decission is right. I believe that I am getting a great deal, but i dont know how the airlines in europe will look at me, will they see me like the OOA and ctc graduates? Canadian training from a recognized institution, dual citizenships. I speak English, Greek, and french fluently.

Thank you very much for your advice. Please advise.

[FliegerTiger]

Wiggy - probably the most accurate post so far on this thread.

A320 lo/co F/O, 4000 Hours. Dreamed of being a pilot all my life.

6 years in, and any chance to get out of this industry on a decent-ish salary & I'd be doing it. My health is shot, I hardly ever see wife & kids and over-prescriptive SOP's make the job boring.

My 2 cents' worth.

[pudoc]

Here's a question from a non-professional.

Do you think that lifestyle will change if you move away from a low cost? Or do you think it's a same thing all round for pilots at the likes of Thomson? I'm not being condescending here, I'm asking out of genuine interest.

[corsair]

Not an airline pilot but flying for a (bad) living for some time now. I vary between actively hating it and being ambivalent about it. Which is ironic considering how much time and effort I spent on achieving my 'dream'. Realise now that it was all bit of a mistake and in truth I would have been better off if I'd failed the medical for some reason or other thus bursting my bubble a lot earlier.

But make no mistake flying is not quite like any other job, sure there are comparable jobs. Comparisions with any form of desk job simply doesn't cut it. There are moments where you suddenly realise how lucky you are often when you find yourself looking out the window at something no one on the ground could ever even imagine. But it's not enough and the negatives eventually outweigh the positives. I'm trying to step back now a bit in part to try and enjoy it again and in part because my life outside aviation is now more important to me now.

But it's hard and what happens is that your experience is now considered valuable and you get offered jobs you could only dream of when you were younger. But you hesitate although you must take it because you have no fall back option.

I recently got back in touch with an old pilot friend. We reminisced happily about our formation days and escapades in flying. But we both feel the need to ease out of the job. Disappointed in ourselves we are.

Re read Atr42, wiggy and cruise zombie. They have pretty much nailed it along with others.

[Elias-8]

My profession is Marine Navigation, I am a 3rd officer in Merchant ships hauling crude oil 28,000 tonnes dispacement + 18,000 tonnes displacement of the ship. Navigating in confined channels, making impossible turns, making the dock with 30 knot wind blowing from shore. GUESS WHAT??? WE ALL THOUGHT WE WHERE GONNA BE CRUISE SHIP CAPTAINS. hahaha......or at least we thought we where gonna travel the world from port to port. The harsh reality is that you work your arse off. None of this applies.

Same is for the the Airline industry. Come one Pilots, why in the heck would you want to discourage yonge pilots to make it to the left seat of a boeing 747? Just because a pilot didnt make it to the left seat of a large airliners doesn't mean anything. Maybe someone else will make it, in a much shorter time and live the dream.

I feel how you feel about the Marine Navigation Industry, I feel burned inside and depleted, but guess what, you have to posses certain qualities, and if you don't have them, then work on them, one of these qualities is not to regret the time, sacrifice, and effort to live a dream. A dream is only alive before you live it. The best part of the adventure is the beginning not the end. This applies to every officer at Sea or Air. Personal Development is very important.

Water doesn't boil at 99 degrees. Imagine to stop the kettle at 99?

even if you never live your dream of flying a specific plane for a living, just look back and pay special attention. You will realize that you lived 80% of your dream already. Don't be ungrateful, and discourage others. Tha only creates negative thoughts in your thoughts, life, energy, trust me this negative energy sticks with you, and people see it in interviews.

Get a personality make over, then you will see how you will attract better jobs.

take care

[Dogfactory]

I believe people watch too much television and hollywood movies... selfesteem comes via other paths.

[Elias-8]

Well they don't realize that landing airline jobs to make a living can be achieved by either being a rich kid where mommy loves you so much and willing to help you go to OAA at age 21, or working your way up first getting a stable career with job security, then make enough money to pay for your training without major debts, then work on personal development, strong will and desire is needed. You get strong personal development through experience, failed attempts, successful attempts, that shows in an interview eg. your body language, your energy, your answers and tone of voice, how you smile etc...and it all has to come naturally.

Trust me, I know.

Wisdom from the Sea

[airpolice]

I suspect that the OP needs to decide if he wants "to be a Pilot" or if he wants to "work as a Pilot", since they can be very different things.

How many people who spend their own money on flying puddle jumpers, on days off from their real work, are hating it?

[TTango]

Water doesn't boil at 99 degrees. Imagine to stop the kettle at 99?

Last time I checked, water can boil at 99 degrees. It just depends on the atmospheric pressure! Water boils at around 69 degrees at the top of Everest! Do they not teaching basic physics at Marine Navigation school? ;)

Cool job though :ok:

[Dogfactory]

I can read on this forum that dreamers are often mistaken for wannabes or videogame players, they are even considered parasites of the magic world of aviation... But let me ask to all these unsatisfied pilots: what was driving somebody to fly an aeroplane before airliners were not existing? Was the bucks and glory or the dream? I truly believe that moaning about getting low paid or unemployment in the industry is just some pussycat attitude. Nowadays EVERY industry is in a mess, every skilled professional has difficulties in getting recognised, and seeing aviation as if it should be spared from common human problems is just a confirmation that some people fly only for the status but would be scared to hell to do any aerobatic. It's the people who actually spoil the aviation, and it's the people that block aviation from being available to anyone.

[a320renewal]

sorry English is not my 1 st language....

most guys i know ask if it worths to become a pilot and fly?they think they will get a job right after school...

well, they should ask themselves if they will get a job.

it s not about if it s "cool" or not to be a pilot, it' s 'will i get a paid job?', or 'will i stay at home for years sending CV and get nothing in the end?'.

and even if you get a job, what it is???: p2f, fly for 6 months, and look for a job again, and where the money come from after years and years of training and line training..

really guys, most guys will not get a job, I think 99% will never get a job, who want a 200h pilot nowadays? nobody.

This is why I have to give up , can not spend the rest of my life, to pay these guys at the CAA and who do nothing for us,just charge more and more euro.

Now JAA pilot are looking in asia, because they can not get a job in their own country...how pathetic is that?:ugh:

even if you are lucky to get a job in a loco, you will see, they will use you, you will work lot of hours, and no help from the company, you will have to set your own company, and you will be 'freelance' for them, with 0 guaranty.
They will be against you everyday.At the end they will simply kick you out an get a new guy with money full of euro and big dreams.:ouch:

a few friends lost their job, they didn't call them back, now sitting at home with their 500 h of airbus.rip! it barely work for trti or trte, but even these guys, have to look in china...why china? because they can not get a job in their own country.

[KAG]

Now JAA pilot are looking in asia, because they can not get a job in their own country...how pathetic is that?

It's maybe very pathetic but it sures pay the bills ;)
I am an European pilot with a Canadian licence flying in Asia anyway, not sure if I am concerned by your comment... ;););)

An airplane needs oil, somebody who plans today to fly for the next 30 or 40 years should ask him/herself the oil question very seriously.

Any serious government, person, institution on earth will tell you: watch out, after around 2015 severe turbulences ahead concerning oil.

Don't come back to pprune a few years later complaining you have not been warned.

[Elias-8]

haha you're funny and accurate. Well, I guess they do teach physics, but after you go on the job, the details of physics are out the window, except for when loading (stability, displacement, buyancy) then fixing positions (range and bearing, DGPS) Some of us also use Sextants on deep sea voyages, to take bearings of celestial bodies, the declination of the earth and corrections (Astronavigation). The other theoretical stuff that is of no use is out the window.

Next time you're flying stick a kettle out the window and tell me when it starts boiling ...lol

cheers

[LPVL]

Tacitus,

In fact I am quite in the same boat as you are. I hold the PPL since 2006 and I work as an telecommunication engineer.

Have you already selected the FTO? I am thinking about starting with ATPL Theory from Bristol GS and you?

Cheers!

[Tacitus]

If i could do a modular course where i am now i would do it, no doubt about it.
But unfortunately where i am now there is not a single flight school so in order to undertake flight training my only option would be to quit. My main concern in order to do this is if a pilot career is a viable otion for people like me, or us as i see many people are in the same boat like me. I understand that flying is more of a passion and believe me i have this passion and i would be very misserable for all my life if i didnt try at least. But at the end will i be able to have an income from flying?I didnt say salary, but an income just to cover my expences at least. So my bottom line is that i see flight training as an investment in order to do something i want but at the same time i want afterwards to be able to pay a rent and afford a crappy old car. Is this doable??I wish i was younger but when i was young i was really broke and i hate debt.I want to be optistic but i see only doom and gloom.
PS as for having a back up career i think that in order to do this you have to spend aditional money and money is a luxury these days

[mad_jock]

You can do it virtually all through the Uk system in bits.

Three week PPL in the states.

distance learning ground school.

You would need three weeks twice to do the residential bit then exams.

Only when you got up to IR would you have to jack the job in.

I held down a 6 days a week 10 hours a day job up until I started the CPL/IR. From day one to last day of my FI course it was 14 months. And I worked for 10 months of that. With 6 weeks off which was why I was doing 6 days a week instead of 5 to build up the weeks off.

[taxistaxing]

MJ, what are your thoughts on trying to work throughout the IR? What makes you say you would need to jack the job in at this point? I ask because I've heard conflicting views on this, and would hope to work through both the CPL and IR if it is possible.

Thanks in advance!

[mad_jock]

To be honest its been rather a long time since I did mine but.....


I really don't think so. You have live and breath it while you are doing it. Its by far the hardest thing you will have learned to date. And any knock backs cost a fortune. The CPL you should be able to get rid of in two weeks wx depending.

I have heard of folk managing to do the IR part time 3 days a week and returning home to instruct over the weekend. It sort of works but you are physically and mentally knackard doing the IR and I would doud't you would be much use to be honest.

You really need to give the IR your best shot and the only way personally i think you can do it is by committing to the course.

I am sure there will be some current IR instructors come along and give thier views on it.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

I did my IR whilst still holding down a full time job but it was so tough.
Took me about 10 weeks and apart from work everything else was on hold.
I work shifts so that helped a bit. I usually do 2 late starts a week so used to do 2-3 hours sim in the morning on those days go in to work looking like a zombie. Weekends was spent at the airfield back seating and catching up with other students and the other 3 days was reading my notes. I gave my partner 1 or 2 nights a week just us.

[taxistaxing]

Thanks both. It's a way off for me yet but alway good to get views on these things...

[a320renewal]

I did my IR in 2004, passed first time, and never found a job in Europe in 8 years despite having a 320 rating, and still no job.
I passed most interviews and could have had a good job now but for political reasons, they have preferred candidates coming from other countries.

I am not a 200h pilot and with my 2000h in my logbook, some companies told me I am over qualified to fly a turboprop and would be bored after 3 months.I have even received letters telling me I am over quailfied for the 737 (I have never touched a 737 in my life).
Now I am too old, companies want guys between 20-35.
BA hire guys with 0 hours or God captain on 777 with 15000 hours in the last 3 months.
So, guys, where do we go now with our expensive JAR license, Africa? fly some 182 and compete with desperate locals who don't like us?
If I knew that Europe were going to screw me, I would have stayed with my FAA rating.
what's the point to go through all these theoretical exams, IR, Multi, type rating, if it' s to finish in a lost country making nothing or to finish unemployed.I know we are in a recession , but is it a reason for the guys sitting at the JAA, to ask more and more money from us ? This is why Europe is collapsing, They build Europe on big dreams, they build it on success, and there is no plan to fix failures.
oh well! rant over, life could be worse.At least we are not at war, not yet!

[Dogfactory]

War would be the solution to give all aviators a job, plus you have the advantage of cleaning all this crap and start a brave new world. :mad:

[mad_jock]

I did my IR in 2004, passed first time, and never found a job in Europe in 8 years despite having a 320 rating, and still no job

And maybe you have some personality defect that means nobody wants you in thier cockpit. Just because you have payed for your training doesn't give you the right to a job.

And as for the letters they can't exactly send you a letter saying sorry but we think you are a knob and don't want to employ you. There are people who we do like even though they don't have the same qualifications as you we are going to employ them anyway because they arn't a knob

[Dan the weegie]

Did my IR in 2011, I'm a little bit fat and a bit on the older side but busted my ass networking and meeting as many people as possible. Incredibly, I'm employed flying TPs.

Sending letters and emails is just not enough, you must get out and meet people and present yourself as a positive hard working person.

I've said this before, the hardest part about going professional is about getting the job, the licences aren't easy and they are expensive but networking and finding work is every bit as much of the process as going through the training.

[a320renewal]

And maybe you have some personality defect that means nobody wants you in thier cockpit


don't say what you don't know ,I was in a company, in USA.this is how I got my 2000h.and have no "defect".

we represent 7% of the worldwide population with our JAA license, so I can tell you, you are better off with a FAA and a job outside of europe, than be with a nice shiny blue JAA license taking the dust and no job like 99.9% of EU pilots who still struggle to get their money back and sit at home because EU is :mad: us.

go FAA , whatever, and keep your money.

[mad_jock]

But points less having FAA if you want to live and work in europe.

Especially now the EASA rules are changed.

[Wirbelsturm]

BA hire guys with 0 hours or God captain on 777 with 15000 hours in the last 3 months.

God Captain, in this case, would be in the RHS at the bottom of the seniority roster with all the other new joiners.

There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money. I think that if one looks at the lucrative side of it he will always be unsatisfied with the job (if he gets one) but if one loves flying and airplanes he will likely get a job in the industry and always be glad of what he does.


I'm with Wiggy on this one. 30 years in and I'm flying big aeroplanes around the globe for financial gain and financial gain only. I get a buzz out of a good landing in rubbish weather along with everybody, I like to demonstrate my skill. Same as flying in the worst weather mother nature could throw at me in my previous flying career before the Airlines, different scenario but the skill set remains. But I don't do it for the 'love' of flying or the 'passion' I do it for cold, hard cash and the expectation that, for the company I work for, I will carry, safely, upto 300 people (including, many times, major business/political personalities and AAA list celebrities) who have paid alot of money (1st class etc.) to their destination in accordance with the safety standards I and my colleagues apply to our daily work thus maintaining the safety and efficiency record of their/my company. For these services and responsibilities I demand adequate recompense.

To do so for less sells yourself and your abilities short and lessens the professionalism of your colleagues/peers.

Sod the 'live the dream' it's about time we all got real and understood, in our lifestyle driven world, that 'Commercial Piloting' is a pretty cr@p and demanding job both psychologically and socially.

Think about that before 'living the dream' because the 'dream' wears thin after a while.

[BlackandBrown]

Hear hear, I completely agree with wirbelsturm.

[Dogfactory]

But pointless having FAA if you want to live and work in europe.
Especially now the EASA rules are changed.

Couldn't agree more. After my research on where to train (and I haven't started yet) I came to the conclusion that to do it outside Europe one must have all the money ready at hand, whilst if you must raise the money during training the only option is to stay in your own country (unless that country doesn't offer flight training). So i find it pretty senseless to mention that flight training is achieved professionally only in, say, the US.

Jobwise, I disagree that in Europe there are no options for pilots. In the last month I have seen TWO jobs advertised on this very forum (Italian section) and successfully assigned to someone. Now, if a pilot's vacancy can be filled through an online forum I believe the situation is not so desperate as someone wants it to look like. Maybe it's all down to the same old thing: you need an ethic and professional attitude when seeking for a job, and you might get it. :ouch:

[Tacitus]

There is a post here about RYR and "older" pilots. I think it should be a must read for anyone who is about to commence training after the age of 30.

But i would like to ask, career wise, is it so bad to fly turboprops untill you retire?

So say i commence my modular training (no need for debt) and end up afterwards (flying GA in between) at a company that operates turboprops (dont mind when) will i be able to have a decent salary untill i retire? (pilots, knock wood, retire at 65 right?). When i say decent it means that i will be able to pay for rent and later on support my kids to university.

I am asking this because as i am not a professional pilot i see that everyone wants to fly jets. Is that big the diference in terms of salary from the turboprops?

[redsnail]

I am asking this because as i am not a professional pilot i see that everyone wants to fly jets. Is that big the diference in terms of salary from the turboprops?

Sadly, yes. :suspect:

[lightning bird]

This forum can make you feel like you’re just on the right side of alive even at around 30 yrs, they will come in droves to tell you it is not the career you imagined, others to tell you it is all worth it in the end. Like every other aspect of existence, love to moan, love to loath, love to love...it’s not like the good old days, you’re better off doing something else, if you love flying go for it.
If you think aviation is the only career taking a battering during these difficult economic times, well you would be deluded. I’ve seen friends and family given forced redundancy in other if even more troubled sectors, as I’m sure many posting on this have! If you’re still lucky to have a job and can afford a few flying lessons and courses, without sacrificing all, consider yourself fortunate. Only you (and yes there is good info on this forum that can assist you), can make that decisive decision, to keep the passion alive, with limited prospects for the foreseeable future, but hey if there is a light at the end of the tunnel you will be in with a chance!

[Piloto2011]

Here's my 10 cents worth:

It is not easy to get into this business. Unless you know the right people it will require a lot of hard work, commitment and discipline from you, let alone the financial risk.

While I agree with people saying most of the 737/320 jobs are reserved for OAA or CTC grads I firmly believe there are ways, many ways, around it. These days CTC are charging 90,000 euro for their course. Plus a possible type rating. It's just nuts. That said, a great many out there forget that maintaining your license and ratings and skills, aaand attending interviews, for which you will have to prepare for adequately, will cost you a whole lot more. Flying schools will not tell you this though.

It's been mentioned modular and integrated cost the same. Wrong. Modular can be done for half if not even less.

A complete FAA Com SE IR package can be done for some $30,000. There's an Asian company taking on 250h gals and guys from western countries to fly their single turbines as FOs. While I have to admit having a few hours will help you get an interview there are many getting in without hours. So, with an investment of some 30 grand US$ you can be already on your way earning a living with flying. Of course should you want to move up from there, especially in Europe, you'll have to sit your JAR exams and convert your license at some point, which will cost you a little more. But no further loans required with more experience and greater skills.

PPL, when taken the glider/ motor glider pilot route can be obtained for much less than schools charge. Needless to mention, your hand flying will be to a muuuuch better standard. Powered flight hours can then be logged cheaply in your own aircraft. There's shares in planes available all over the place. You may take friends and family up for a ride and even charge them for half the cost of that flight. If not promoted publicly all legal. In other words, be creative about your training and do not necessarily aim at the quick shot. Remember, the longer you have been in the industry the more people you will meet, people that may help you point you in the right direction.

MCC: 500h with one of the UK air taxi operators and the UK CAA will grant you a MCC certificate.

Personally, I have done all against the odds and many here had been advocated against: modular, trained all over the place, converted, Spanish IR, no MCC. Never had inside help. Yet, never been without a flying job right after school, sitting at well over 1,000 hours now, most of which PIC, and have gradually moved up the ladder (now flying turbine).

It's not easy but in my view the best job ever! Well worth it. :)

Good luck!

[plikee]

Piloto2011 i really appreciate your humility :ok: you have a pilot job but you understand what every newbie pilot goes under nowadays after finish his training . Many people here don't, unfortunately .

Good luck for your career :)

[Wirbelsturm]

you understand what every newbie pilot goes under nowadays after finish his training . Many people here don't, unfortunately .


I think you will find that many here certainly understand, possibly better than you do yourself. Whilst entry to flying was different a few decades back the job opportunities were far less thus the competition was far harder for the fewer jobs. Overall I would say the difficulty was still greater years ago as the aircraft were alot more tircky/finicky/difficult to fly! Just my opinion though.

As to advice, I would be wary of comments as there are many on ******* who are actively involved in major airlines, jet or turbo or otherwise, and many actively involved in recruitment. ******* provides an interesting insight into the impatience of many junior pilots when trying to break into a difficult market.

With respect to the current job situation, I have stated before that the CAA/Government/BALPA need to get actively involved in setting minimum standards that employers must meet when recruiting junior pilots. Whilst there is a supply of 'wannabees' who are willing to work for peanuts the airlines will exploit them to the detriment of more experienced pilots. Not only does this water down the experience level in the front it also increases the work load of those constantly flying with junior, inexperienced co-pilots, often many of whom have purchased 'block hours' and thus will never fully be up to speed with company SOP's.

This is, in all honesty, not the fault of the job seeker, they are just doing whatever is needed to try and gain that elusive first job. It is the lack of strict regulation that allows the exploitation of a workforce for the hope of better T's & C's up the ladder. Sadly the legs of the ladder are being chopped off at the bottom bring the top ever lower.

A sad reality check.

[plikee]

I think you will find that many here certainly understand, possibly better than you do yourself. Whilst entry to flying was different a few decades back the job opportunities were far less thus the competition was far harder for the fewer jobs. Overall I would say the difficulty was still greater years ago as the aircraft were alot more tircky/finicky/difficult to fly! Just my opinion though.

As to advice, I would be wary of comments as there are many on ******* who are actively involved in major airlines, jet or turbo or otherwise, and many actively involved in recruitment. ******* provides an interesting insight into the impatience of many junior pilots when trying to break into a difficult market.

Sorry, I didn't want to be 'disrespectful' nor said this to offend anyone. I partly agree with you . I really believe it was harder some years back as you said, the job opportunities were not so big as they are today . But, nowadays, there are no jobs, or just a few around the globe, that people who finished their training meet the minimum requirements - I have a job seeker website where there are many airliners' details out of date. Those, 4 or 5 years back, asked only for the minimums of the minimums, like 200TT with ME/IR MCC . I am not stating that everyone who had only this, applied a had a job. Many didn't, other had to hard work for it . Today, I see a job offer but most of them (not to say all), I don't meet the requirements.
Last month saw a jump pilot job - 1000TT with SET . Seriously?

I finished my training a few moths back, I'm young and I know it will be hard to have a pilot job in a near future but I am expecting that, I have a job (non-aviation) and I'll keep it until I get something as a pilot - believe me, I am patient :) but thank you your advice . As I said, not here to offend anyone

[Wirbelsturm]

No problem, I didn't mean to say you offended anyone, I just wanted to point out that many recruiters etc.. from many airlines look at this site. If you know what I mean. ;)

[lightning bird]

You apologised twice for something you didn’t do, yes I’m all up for intertwining , but if it means just saying yes sir, then no thanks!

[Superpilot]

Wirbelsturm speaks words of wisdom though he may not agree with what I'm about to say. It’s important you know what I'm about to say as it’s the second biggest road block you will face in your quest for a job.

The formula for a pilot who wishes to become better at his/her job is simple: Read the books; understand the theory; practice it regularly and take advice from instructors and senior guys regarding aircraft handling. This formula has worked for me. However, I find myself in an industry full of obnoxious and talentless egotistic jerks who are given opportunity after opportunity to correct their inability to pilot planes they have already been flying for years. It makes you wonder, how any of them got the job. Then you come to learn that the aviation industry actually cares very little for aptitude and fair opportunity. If a total jerk is occupying a position of recruitment then you can bet that total jerks (his friends) will take up most positions. Aka The buddy network. In many airlines this is the unofficial rule of law.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I've been flying for ten years, doing it for a living for seven and now fly as a turboprop Captain. I consider myself to be lucky and am not bitter, but looking at in an objective way, if I was Tacitus, no way would I get involved in flying. My reasons are

-vast escalation in training costs as you need to be training with the likes of CTC and then still get charged for a type rating.
-vast decreases in salaries as desperate newbies queue up to earn peanuts or even pay to do jobs that were once well paid jobs. In this game there is always somebody willing to undercut you!
-no job security. Dock labour style contracts at some of Europes largest airlines. Easy for them to downsize.
-little sense of career progression. Turboprops, pistons etc are not a good way to get into a jet anymore and why bother anyway. Most of these jet jobs are badly paid anyway.
-yes, there are guys still earning a lot of money but management have a plan to make sure you never earn that kind of money.
-the threat of overly liberal flight time limitations being imposed making your life hell.
-the threat of impending economic collapse in Europe, oil shocks, war etc
-where do you see this industry in five years?

To me, it is a race to the bottom and will take a major accident to change things for the better. For those with parents with fat wallets, willing to gamble their money on their offspring and prop them up while they are working low income flying jobs for the next ? years (if they are lucky) it might still be viable. But for you Tacitus, you could end up 40+ and unemployed or in a poorly paid flying job. "Flying for food" will get very old, very soon I'm afraid.

Have you considered careers in ATC or Helicopters?

[Dogfactory]

Just cut the crap everybody! Every industry is facing an unemployment issue, this doesn't mean people should stop trying to get the jobs they want. But maybe you guys all want the immigrants to bake pizzas while you grab the splendid highly paid jobs all for yourself. Frankly, you all sound like little :mad: who don't trust their own professionality and are afraid that someone will come and steal your wife and belongings. Pilots are certainly highly skilled but maybe they are not really professional at what they are doing. No wonder MCC was introduced.

[fwjc]

It's quite funny reading the last few posts about the obvious employment insecurities experienced across commercial aviation. It's funny because I am currently working in the public sector (yes, that's the one that's supposed to be the most secure, job for life type scenario). The reason I started on the modular route training is because they put us all at risk, made many staff redundant and while I've survived a couple of rounds of redundancies, I'm not confident in the future. I decided to at least try to make what I love pay the bills.

With respect to those who say that for them it's just a job that pays for the next skiing holiday, and they'd get out of it if they could, most of the commercial chaps I met as a young PPL said the same thing and that put me off. I didn't want to lose my love of flying. And then I met the other side - peope who rush home after doing Malaga and back to pull out their little taildragger for a leisurely bimble, or who maintain their instructors rating and spend most of their rest days instructing or doing renewals - not for the money, but because they love flying. I guess this breed is less common than the disillusioned sky-bus drivers, but I hope to stay in the rare breed camp.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I guess this breed is less common than the disillusioned sky-bus drivers, but I hope to stay in the rare breed camp.

Yes, the disillusioned sky-bus drivers are far more common these days. I don't think that there are many pilots out there who have the money to go GA flying in their own aircraft. The ones that I know who instruct do it to top up their low earnings and give themselves a fall back in case they lose their job. My employer, like most others works me to the maximum limitations of the flight time limitations. Sometimes I have to pull up in motorway services and sleep on my way home because I am so shattered. Going flying after work? No chance.

I've worked in other industries too and have had the boot from a few jobs and know about insecurity. In those jobs though, my skills were transferable and I found better employment. With flying though, the skills are not transferable and the chances of another flying job are very low.

A lot of guys on here seem to think that the "senior at BA" lifestyle is still realistic for them. Forget it, it's not going to happen, management will see to that.

Yes there are worse jobs out there by far and if you didn't have to spend vast sums of money this career would still be viable. But of course, you DO have to spend a lot of money to even have a chance in this industry.

[Wirbelsturm]

If a total jerk is occupying a position of recruitment then you can bet that total jerks (his friends) will take up most positions. Aka The buddy network. In many airlines this is the unofficial rule of law.

These people exist in all walks of life. Sadly the biggest downfall of the 'meritocracy' system is who gets to decide who is good enough? Are you in the 'clique'? At least a 'seniority' system removes this ambiguity and gives everyone a chance.

A system of recruiting that involves both pilots and HR has a more even approach albeit not perfect. Always remember the aviation industry from a piloting perspective is not very big and a bad name/reputation travels very quickly! Unfortunately you will find large and difficult egos in both seats with varying levels of ability/knowledge. Thus is the chameleonic nature of our profession.

disillusioned sky-bus drivers
I love flying small light aircraft to destinations I choose on days I choose when I choose. The freedom it offers is a breath of fresh air and the handling skills different. I still maintain my helicopter licence for exactly this reason. Flying for a job where you are time constrained, route constrained and company constrained in difficult environments for long periods is a touch different from you 'tail draggers' that you wish to remain a part of. You probably don't go 'into the office' for fun, many commercial pilots look at private flying in the same way, a 'busmans holiday'.

As I've stated before, I fly commercial airlines to be adequately recompensed for my experience. Not for fun. You don't get much 'fun' out of a procedural IFR widebody jet flight. Not 'disillusioned' just another day at the office.

If the constant downward spiral of the T's & C's doesn't halt and the extreme pressures on Flight Time limitations doesn't relent then I would never recommend this profession to my kids. And this after being in professional aviation for 26 years now. It, in it's current form, isn't worth it for beginners and until the airlines realise that no one is going to stump up the cash for licences they will not stop exploiting those who chase the dream. Possibly to the detriment of everyone.