Saluting Advice Please

[Grumpy106]

Off to the Queen's Diamond Jubilee Parade and Flypast tomorrow (as a spectator but in No 1s) and am after a bit of advice regarding when and when not to salute if poss. I realise most people who read this are aircrew, so are probably in the same state of ignorance as me, but any help is appreciated! I know that we salute when the National Anthem is played, if the Monarch goes past or when a Queen's Colour passes by, but what about during Royal Salutes, etc. Thanks in advance.

[orgASMic]

Grab your SWO before he knocks off.

As a spectator you will get a programme/order of service or similar. It should tell you when to do what.

[Genstabler]

If it moves, salute it. Can't go wrong.

[NutLoose]

And if it doesn't, paint it white, but that might end you up in the poo :p

[Heathrow Harry]

yup

you can never salute, or use the words "Sir" or "Ma'am" too much

[mini]

And if it doesn't, paint it

... and if you can't paint it pick it up :ok:

[pr00ne]

Go in jeans and a tee shirt, relax, stop worrying and just have fun?

[MostlyHarmless]

What he said ^^ :)

[Old Fella]

From an old colonial boy. Why the hell are you wearing uniform if you are going as a spectator?

[langleybaston]

From an old colonial boy. Why the hell are you wearing uniform if you are going as a spectator?

How about wishing to show respect?

Works for me.

Its why men wear a suit and tie to Church, for example.

[Wander00]

Many years ago I got tickets for the Final Rehearsal for the Queen's Birthday Parade at Horseguards. Tickets said "uniform or Lounge Suit" so I wore my best blue, as one does. Leaving aside the need (my wife is not known for timekeeping, other than "bad") to run down Whitehall, and remembering to " march" past the Cenotaph so I could salute, and arrived in the tiered searting just in time, to realise that of the several thousand specrtators few of us were in uniform, although may of those present were clearly serving. Did a lot of saluting that day too!

[pr00ne]

"How about wishing to show respect?

Its why men wear a suit and tie to Church, for example. "


It's 2012 for christ sake, not 1952...

[dkh51250]

It's 2012 for christ sake, not 1952...


See what happens when you stop free school milk, and sending children up chimneys.

[johnnypaveway]

To the OP some good advice above- saluting policy for the day is to salute Sqn Ldr and above (and jt service counterpart). As normal Officers salute during national anthem and where passing or passed by The Queen's Colour/s.

If in doubt pay compliments and you cannot go far wrong. Remembering that saluting is at its core simple good manners- Per Ardua.

I hope you enjoy the day and that the weather is good!

[Sloppy Link]

National Anthem, Royal Salute, General Salute et al and, the most important of all, keep you eyes open and watch what others are doing and follow them. Baaa!
PS, Warrant Officers, as per Commissioned Officers.

[NutLoose]

See what happens when you stop free school milk, and sending children up chimneys.


:D:D:D


If you're not sure when to salute, a loud "Coooiiiieee Betty..... Over here" should suffice :O

[DarkSide24]

"Why the hell are you wearing uniform if you are going as a spectator?"


Officers attending are required to wear No1s.

[Grumpy106]

As Darkside stated, those invited to attend in the Royal Park are to wear uniform if serving, hence the original question. Thanks for the useful advice, hopefully it will be a good day and I may even get a chance to salute Her Majesty, which is only fair as it was she who gave me a Commission in the first place :D

[Old Fella]

I was not aware that one had to be in uniform to show respect. I was also not aware that holding a Commission necessarily made one any better than another. I'm afraid that during my time in the Defence Forces I never was convinced that parades, dining in nights etc were anything more than a waste of time, time which could have been better spent doing something productive or being spent with my family. I have great respect for Queen Elizabeth II as an outstanding example of how the Royals should behave. She must cringe at the shenanigans of some of her family members. As others have said, it is 2012 not 1952.

[Captain Tercrew]

I'm not sure that I understand how the date is relevant as a means of deciding whether to show respect. But then I'm sure that pr00ne will tell us.

[Old Fella]

Captain tercrew. My reference to 1952 versus 2012 simply meant that times do change, nothing about how we should show respect. Respect has to be earned and no doubt HRH QE II deserves respect. Some lesser members of her family are not so deserving of it. As for respect in the military that also has to be earned. Simply holding a Queen's Commission does not make an individual any more deserving of respect than the SNCO's or OR's, all of whom contibute to the performance and effectiveness of the force.

[hval]

Old Fella,

I may be misunderstanding what you have written. If so, I apologise.

I was always taught that the salute is a sign of respect not for the person wearing it, but to their commission, which was given to them by the queen. Returning a salute is done so, by the officer, on behalf of the queen.

As for times changing, yes they have. Does that mean respect and manners are a bad thing? I see a lack of honour, dignity and manners as a negative. This is why I find myself disliking most/ all politicians. They appear to lack all of these. I will show my respect to the queen, and, if a person deserves it, irrespective of rank, to them.

[Old Fella]

hval. No apology required or expected. Respect and good manners are most certainly not a bad thing, just difficult to find these days. As for the salute and what it means I know a number of Officers felt it was they, and not the Monarch, whom deserved the salutation. Those with that view I did not respect. Despite serving for more than 20 years I never was able to come to the view that all the ceremonial stuff was of any real benefit to the bulk of what we were trying to achieve. In my case it was initially maintaining aircraft and later being part of the operating crew. I respected all ranks with whom I served, if I thought it was deserved. Those I did not usually became aware of the fact. Thankfully those whom I did not respect were very much in the minority.

[Exascot]

I was always taught that the salute is a sign of respect not for the person wearing it, but to their commission

Absolutely correct, you are saluting The Queen's Commission. The only exception being the holder of a VC when one is saluting the bearer. However this is tradition not Queen's Regulations.

[langleybaston]

"It's 2012 for christ sake, not 1952..."

Capital C, as in Buddha, Mohammed etc. Just old-fashioned good manners.

[salad-dodger]

not very often I agree with pr00ne, but he's spot on this time

old-fashioned yep

S-D

[Wander00]

Well, I thought that was pretty damned fine. Well done to all, including HM. Lot of dust in the air here in France

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Some people have said the 'it's 2012 not 1952' like that is a good thing. I'm not so sure.

Duncs:ok:

PS I stood for the National Anthem whilst watching the Parade/Flypast from my drawing room.

[langleybaston]

Its not a problem: I shall stick to my 1952 standards, which imply that I tolerate those of 2012 whilst reserving judgement.

[sitigeltfel]

The old Airmans mantra...

If it moves, salute it.

If it doesn't, polish it.

[NutLoose]

Hope you had a good day in the end :)

[Adam Nams]

PS I stood for the National Anthem whilst watching the Parade/Flypast from my drawing room.


1952 = Drawing Room
2012 = Pimp ma Crib bro, just look at ma Roost!

[Motleycallsign]

Surely if it was 1952 the OP would have been 60 years too soon................ ok coat's by the door on my way out

[Grumpy106]

Had a great time thanks, feel quite honoured and extremely proud to have been there when the Armed Forces paid their tribute to the Monarch in the 60th year of her reign. As for Old Fella saying that parades are not important, I disagree. Whilst walking around Windsor both before and after the parade, the public were both excited and respectful. Parades are a way to show the public that the Military is still there and is proud to serve. There was a great deal of respect around on Sat - from the Military to the Monarch, from the Military to its own members and from the public to the Military. A good day all round.

[NutLoose]

:)

Good to hear.

[zondaracer]

When in doubt, whip it out

[muppetofthenorth]

When in doubt, whip it out

Coincidentally also a rule for a lively evening in the Mess.

[NutLoose]

Move along folks... Not a lot to see here..... :}

[stumpey]

Passed out, serving Officer doesn't know when to salute yet doubtless expects Airmen to show them respect and follow their leadership. :mad:




Ye, right. The modern RAF. Be all you can be.
(But at least you had the nouce to ask). :D

Mine Farter was Ine Dutchman, mit mine yur yur yur!

[Old Fella]

Just to clarify what I think about parades. Ceremonial Parades, such as that commemoration of the 60 year reign of HRH QE II are fine. My comment was aimed at monthly OC's Parades and Mess Dining in Nights on Operational Bases. They were both a waste of time as far as I was concerned, most likely as I spent far too much time away from family flying to be bothered with Dining in Nights, Orderly Sergeant Duty, etc. The Parades did nothing to enhance our operational effectiveness. Besides, I could never stay in step!!!!

[Rollingthunder]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01497/dambusters_1497648i.jpg

Salute

[Grumpy106]

'Passed out, serving Officer doesn't know when to salute yet doubtless expects Airmen to show them respect and follow their leadership. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif'

Stumpey, I was seeking clarification, I have never been to a Royal Parade before and didn't want to insult anyone by not being sure of the rules. Obviously your vast experience outshines mine. Next time I will ask your advice re sword drill and which knife and fork to use :mad:

By the way, Officers graduate from RAFC Cranwell, they do not 'pass out'.

[parabellum]

It's 2012 for christ sake, not 1952...


So that is an excuse to dispense with decorum, good manners and basic values?

I suspect we have a couple of sandle wearing socialists among us, one of whom has a rather large chip on his shoulder.

[EyesFront]

Yesterday I was on duty at a jubilee village fete which was opened by a lookalike masquerading as HM the Queen, accompanied by a pair of portly corgis. The fete organisers naturally played along with the fiction, but I declined the opportunity to salute the said lady when introduced to her... I wasn't trying to be a miserable spoilsport - it just wouldn't have been right!

[Willard Whyte]

Seems to me there's folk around here that'd salute a postage stamp.

[Thunderpants]

Longest way up...wiggle wiggle....shortest way down. :}

[Willard Whyte]

Dad's Army's finest.

[Old-Duffer]

EyesFront,

Please can you share with us what uniform you were wearing at the village fete? Unless there was a service 'presence' eg a recruiting stand, perhaps a military uniform was not appropriate.

However, as to saluting; a gentleman wearing a hat would normally 'doff' it on greeting a lady or a dignatory. A serviceman in uniform would salute the lady etc as a display of good manners. If in uniform (albeit RAFVR(T) these days), I always greet ladies at the school where I help, with a salute and I do the same if the headmaster appears.

Perhaps it's time to search out the old copy of 'Stradling' - now that dates me, doesn't it????

Old Duffer

[Willard Whyte]

So, you question the wearing of uniform at a village fete, but think it's ok to wear it when helping out at school.

See post #46.

[Motleycallsign]

Grumpy106, I'm sure that more than one cadet at RAFC Cranwell has 'passed out' while graduating.

[Old-Duffer]

Willard Whyte,

The 'helping out' at school to which I refer, is as a member of the school's Combined Cadet Force and hence I am 'on duty', albeit as a member of the RAFVR(T) and not as a 'regular'.

I hope you will agree that this makes it rather different from a village fete.

Old Duffer

[Basil]

I declined the opportunity to salute the said lady when introduced to her...
I don't wish to challenge your decision but, like some others, when in uniform and wearing a cap, I'd salute any lady to whom I was introduced.

[teeteringhead]

I'd salute any lady to whom I was introduced. ... indeed so ...


.... but what if they were merely women? ;)*






* for cousins and the sardonically challenged, this Smily denotes irony.....

[Old-Duffer]

From 1930s troop ship stuff:

'Officers and their ladies

NCOs and their wives

Other ranks and their women'

was it really like that? YES IT WAS!!!

Old Duffer

[Basil]

what if they were merely women?
I'd salute them more hopefully :}

Bally heck! Don't go on about officers' wives, ladies, women etc.
The wife of one of my instructors made it clear that I was in with a chance.
I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but banging one of your instructors' wives? I don't think so. :sad:
n.b. Not saying which station or what course.

[ratpackgreenslug]

From 1930s troop ship stuff:

'Officers and their ladies

NCOs and their wives

Other ranks and their women'


And I suppose that their pieces of fluff-on-the-side were, in the social pecking order, respectively referred to as mistresses, concubines or tarts. Did 1930s protocol demand they also receive a salute or even perhaps a raised helmet from a passing officer?

Obsequious displays of servitude and sycophancy - the stuff from which every institution is made.

[Hydromet]

And I suppose that their pieces of fluff on the side were, in the social pecking order, respectively referred to as mistresses, concubines or tarts.
I recall reading that in at least one case, the skippers wife was addressed thus: "Ah, ma'am, you must be the other Mrs. Bloggs."

[Old Fella]

Old Duffer, not only TROOP SHIP STUFF. The pompous class crap was alive and well as late as the 1950's-1960's and probably later in the RAAF. It even permeated into everyday life of our family member's. "Ladies" introducing themselves as "Mrs Sqn Ldr ........" etc, wives not being asked for coffee before their spouse made SNCO rank etc. Such discrimination would not be tolerated in the RAAF of today, I hope, and it should not have ever been.

[taxydual]

There's a scene in 'In Which We Serve' where Noel Coward (so terribly, terribly good) as Captain of HMS Torrin meets the new wife of AB (cor blimey) Blake (John Mills) on a train.

He salutes her.

OK, I know it's the movies, but, to my mind the mark of an Officer and a Gentleman

[Whenurhappy]

Taxy Dual:

Yes, that scene in the railway compartment makes me chuckle, as it is clear that the Captain is slightly confused that an AB 'and his Mrs' are in first class. But he is terribly good about it. A great film, too. Famously, he dived into the tanks at Shepperton Studios (I think) where they filmed the sinking scene and trilled 'There's dysentary in every ripple'. No doubt amusing at the time...

[BEagle]

The pompous class crap was alive and well as late as the 1950's-1960's and probably later in the RAAF.

'Class'? In Australia, sometimes known as the biggest Sgt's Mess in the world?

:\

[Union Jack]

'Class'? In Australia, sometimes known as the biggest Sgt's Mess in the world?

Now, now BEagle .....:= At one of my RAN appointments, the President of the Senior Ratings' Mess (incidentally a survivor of HMAS VOYAGER the Australian DARING Class destroyer tragically sunk following a collision when acting as planeguard for HMAS MELBOURNE in February 1964) was such a gentleman that he could have given lessons in protocol to the Marshal of the Diplomatic Corps, and he was by no means a one-off.:ok:

Back to saluting, and bearing in mind that the Royal Navy and the RAN don't normally salute on entering offices, when dropping in to pass the time of day, the Chief PTI at the same establishment used to stand in the open doorway of my office and pull himself up to the lintel with his left hand whilst saluting with his right. All worked swimmingly, up to but not including the day when the lintel finally gave way with a crash and hit him on the head! The Chief fell in a heap on the floor, his scalp streaming with blood, but he came up still saluting .....:ugh: (seems the appropriate smiley)

[Old Fella]

BEagle, is the Sergeant's Mess not something to be proud of? As for questioning our "class", I don't think too many Aussies would give a hoot about how we are viewed. We have too much fun enjoying life to worry about such things.

[A2QFI]

I was at a cocktail party in an Air Officer's residence, in my capacity as his ADC. His wife told my wife ""The Flt Lt's wives are over there, dear" Charming, even for the 1960s

[salad-dodger]

well said Old-Fella. Unfortunately I suspect that a lot of what is written on here seemingly in jest, does actually reflect the attitudes of so many of the old farts on here.

S-D

[Basil]

I suspect that a lot of what is written on here seemingly in jest, does actually reflect the attitudes of so many of the old farts on here.
. . or successfully wind up those with a balanced personality :}

[Brian 48nav]

Before 'Shewhomustbeobeyed' saw the light and chose me she had an Australian boy friend, Pete H - his old man was instructing at the Army staff college in Camberley.

Pete H went off to join the Oz Army and years later we made contact again. Pete was doing pretty well and made frequent trips to UK, and always came to stay for a night if he had the chance. I made sure I was there of course!

The last visit for General Pete was just before he retired and he had an Oz major on exchange with the Brits ferrying him around. He stayed the night and next morning was being picked up early prior to meetings at MOD. I heard his car arrive and went outside to open the gate, dressed in my dressing gown and wellies. Major gets out, looks at me, throws up a smart salute to Pete and says 'Your secret's safe with me, Sir'. We nearly wet ourselves!

[Samuel]

Eccentricty wasn't extant only in the RAF; I recall a RNZAF Group Captain and Station Commander at Wigram when all flying training was done there who took it into his head that no officer who lived off should arrive at work carrying his lunch and should in fact eat in the Mess regardless of the fact that they'd have to pay!

On the other hand, there was, for many years, a Works and Bricks gardener employed at Woodbourne who had a habit of leaping out from behind bushes and throwing a magnificent salute in the direction of any passing officer. Ever obliging, they always returned it!

[MAD Boom]

Stumpey, I was seeking clarification, I have never been to a Royal Parade before and didn't want to insult anyone by not being sure of the rules. Obviously your vast experience outshines mine. Next time I will ask your advice re sword drill and which knife and fork to use

By the way, Officers graduate from RAFC Cranwell, they do not 'pass out'.

As an Officer, I would expect you to use the appropriate resources; QRs, JSPs or heaven forbid you should pick up the phone and call the SWO for advice.

Instead, you look for help and post on a site notorious for banter, name calling and pi$$ taking, and then cry when someone flippantly replies.

Get a grip. What on earth do they allow to 'graduate' from Cranwell these days?

[Milo Minderbinder]

"There's a scene in 'In Which We Serve' where Noel Coward (so terribly, terribly good) as Captain of HMS Torrin meets the new wife of AB (cor blimey) Blake (John Mills) on a train.

He salutes her"

What else could he do? Everyone knew the old fop was as queer as a coot, and if he'd attempted to act normally towards a woman it would have appeared too out of character to be believeable.
What beats me is why - knowing his habits - he was ever considered for a film role as a naval officer
Surely thats bending things too far?

............................................................
edit
On consideration as the ship's captain was supposedly based on Mountbatten maybe we shouldn't be surprised. I wonder if Coward had as close a relationship with Mountbatten as he is said to have had with the Duke of Kent?

[taxydual]

'What beats me'

'knowing his habits'

'the old fop'

'queer as a coot'

'film role as a naval officer'

'bending things too far'


Bloody hell Milo, that must be the World Record of the amount of Double Entendre in a single post!

I salute you, Sir. ;)

[Milo Minderbinder]

Just trying to keep my hand in

[HTB]

...said the gynaecologist...


Mister B

[Grumpy106]

Quote:
As an Officer, I would expect you to use the appropriate resources; QRs, JSPs or heaven forbid you should pick up the phone and call the SWO for advice.

Instead, you look for help and post on a site notorious for banter, name calling and pi$$ taking, and then cry when someone flippantly replies.

Get a grip. What on earth do they allow to 'graduate' from Cranwell these days?


Not you obviously

[Whenurhappy]

Samuel - you suddenly made me dredge something from the past - the old Ministry of Works guy at RNZAF Woodbourne throwing salutes. I did an engineering course (as a cadet) in 1978 which involved ground-running Harvards and I remember the old chap who would always stop and wave as we marched over from the GSTS barracks to the 4 TTS classrooms.

He wasn't quite the full quid, but he was gone when I was posted to WB as a young officer in the mid 1980s.

There was also a General Service Hand there - ex FS Safety and Surface worker- wee Jock, who delivered the mail and managed all sorts of barely-legal scams to make the office run smoothly. He was somewhat reluctant to move with the times - he was still maintaining Gestetner stencils of course notes even when each section had its own photocopier. But he used to snap me a very sharp salute - and he was old enough to be my grandfather!

[Samuel]

When that old Works employee finally retired, the boys from the Repair Depot had a presentation of a "medal" which consisted of an oversized piece of polished dural! (It's true he wasn't the full quid,but harmless]. They even made the presentation at a small parade attended by the CO! I kid you not, the recipient wasn't the only one there not quite the full quid, but it was typical air force humour at its very best!

In 1978 the CO was, I think , an outspoken fella name of Ross *****son who had lost an eye in a birdstrike while flying a Skyhawk on exchange with the USAF. It was true that he didn't suffer fools gladly! As a Sqn Ldr I had to go over as minder to two Public Service Association [PSA] reps[that's Civil Service union to those in the UK], for a meeting on some very minor issues. Ross greeted them in his office with a salute, of course, and poured the tea etc, and then sat back and suggested the PSA list their complaints. They came up with a long list of petty items needing to be remedied, and finished with "and we'd like the answer now!" "Certainly" said Ross "provided you are prepared to accept "get F***ed" as an answer".

[ricardian]

'Officers and their ladies
NCOs and their wives
Other ranks and their women'
Officers are "high spirited"
NCOs are "confused"
Other ranks are "drunk"

[Whenurhappy]

Ross was CO of Wigram from c 84 - 87 - and famously had the glass 'AH' eye - his son was a chef at Woodbourne at the time. He was also CO when I went through 2 Mess in 85. Happy days!

[MAD Boom]

Not you obviously

Never assume Grumpy bloke. You know what they say, it makes an ass out of you and......er, you.

[Samuel]

Ross sadly died a few years ago. His son is now a journalist!