New Aerial Survey Pilot Cadet Scheme

[magicmick]

If you’ve got the PPL and 100hrs and fancy MEP aerial survey work you might be interested in this:

aerial survey pilot cadet - APEM (http://www.apemltd.co.uk/vacancies/aerial-survey-pilot-cadet)

Good luck.

[CookPassBabtridge]

Fantastic opportunity for someone. Refreshing to see something like this come out of what is fast becoming a career exclusively for the rich.

[magicmick]

Yeah, I guess it’s not perfect as you still have to stump up for the PPL and build up to 100hrs which isn’t cheap but it’s better than a poke in the eye. I wish that such schemes were available back when I was training, could have saved a whole load of money, just bad timing on my part.

[sapperkenno]

Will be interesting to see who they actually do take on once people who already have CPL/IR start to apply, and they realise they can save serious money by not having to train them... :rolleyes:

[mad_jock]

You have to pay your way by doing all the ****e jobs that they struggle to fill with people of the same standard that your going to get with cadets.

It very similar to the Atlantic fuglie scheme. I wouldn't be supprised if an ex atlantic person is behind it. If it thats is the case you will work hard have a cracking time and come out at the end a more than decent aviator.

[EK4457]

On one hand, some PPL holder is going to get very lucky. All the best to them.

On the other, there is a pile of CVs a mile high already on their desk including countless experienced instructors.

The last round of recruitment (for a proper pilot) saw a huge amount of extrememly high quality applications. This was in their own words.

The reason for side stepping all of these in order to take a risk with an unproven cadet is beyond me.

But then again, so is this entire industry.....

[magicmick]

The last round of employment for a qualified pilot was probably in response to a new aircraft arriving or one of their pilots chucking their notice in. This scheme seems to be based around having someone qualified and sat ready doing camera operator and ground ops duties under the shadow of a bond until when/ if a pilot job becomes available obviously the cadet might be sat for a long time waiting for a pilot job. I seem to remember that in the long distant past they wanted 800hrs minimum before applying so that minimum seems to have gone out the window. If a pilot job becomes available before the cadet qualifies they will have to absorb the loss of a pilot or advertise for a qualified pilot. Also, as MJ points out they will have a cadet who is happy to be in low paid employment doing menial jobs while someone else pays for their training, that doesn’t make it morally right or ethical but they’re not in business for the morals or ethics.

[CookPassBabtridge]

I would bet on there being a large number of CPL/IR holders trying for this. Though you say they would have to stump up the £25k salary to hire at that level, there would be more than a few already qualified applicants willing to work for £14k, bonded, out there.

I hadn't even heard of this operator until I saw this thread!

[magicmick]

Yeah I’m sure that you’re right about the qualified people willing to accept £14k pa and sign a bond for training that they have already paid for with the risk that they could be waiting 1 month for a flying job to become available or they could be waiting 1, 3, 5 years or longer. More a damning indictment of the situation that the industry is in right now than a criticism of the qualified people who choose to apply.

[mad_jock]

yes but there isn't many people who are both intelligent and capable willing to accept 14k to do all the ****e jobs.

Also as well the fugly system did produce extremely good pilots.

Sticking a 200 hour zero to hero into a survey machine and expecting them to just go and do the job is just plain daft.

2 years being a camera man and all the other jobs will mean that when you eventually do get into the LHS you will know every job on the aircraft and what the procedures are and what to do and what not to do.

A zero to hero will only just be getting usefull by the time they leg it to something else.

[mad_jock]

I suspect camera operator will be one of the good jobs which will only be dealt out for extremely good behaviour.

I suspect the other jobs won't be as pleasant.

[magicmick]

Yeah, I guess that depends on their definition of extremely good behaviour.....the mind boggles!!!!!!!

[horsebox]

At a guess, unlike the usual aviation way of fag packet in the morning, implement in the afternoon business style, they are thinking ahead and if it works well they will probably do it again...

[Gear Up Landing]

2 years being a camera man and all the other jobs will mean that when you eventually do get into the LHS you will know every job on the aircraft and what the procedures are and what to do and what not to do.

What rubbish!! Maybe you would like the BA FPP guys to do 2 years as cabin crew, baggage handlers and dispatching just so they know ever job?? :ugh:

[mad_jock]

The flying your doing isn't punching buttons following a pink bit of string with a 10000 Captains making sure you not going to press the wrong button.

This job will be hairy arsed flying in class G dealing with everything that gets flung your way.

And speaking as someone that has done that sort of job the training thats given out by the intergrated schools is so so far removed from what your job is that nobody employs them. They are even worse than a pain in the arse they are just plain dangerous.

[bingofuel]

This job will be hairy arsed flying in class G dealing with everything that gets flung your way.

And in the good old days this sort of flying, as was single pilot IFR in piston twins in the crap, the experience that stood you in good stead for the airlines, but these days it counts for very little.

I know who I would rather have beside me when the going gets tough!

[fade to grey]

Hmmm, it does say there that after your time in ops / camera you will get a job if one is available. I guess it's a good way of getting a free licence , but where you going to go after that ? Naturally most people aspire to airlines as a progression but sadly, these days, most won't be interested in your hairy days as a survey pilot.

[mad_jock]

I don't know any Atlantic/Highland fuglies who are out of work.

Some of the Atlantic ones are LHS with BA and various other big boys.

And even the low houred (at the time) fuglies out of Highland are all employed either on Jungle jets or Q400's. None of them had any issues with sim checks and the like.

The ones that won't be interested you wouldn't have a look at anyway because of the cadetships.

IF your young (sub 25) and can afford to get the PPL and hours go for it.

[magicmick]

This is the first time that APEM have recruited a cadet pilot so I assume that further cadet recruitment will depend on how well/ badly this recruitment goes and will rely upon further development and growth in their fleet of aircraft and airborne surveillance business. There is a link for a ‘frequently asked questions’ document on the cadet vacancy page, perhaps your query is answered in that document, failing that the document does detail a recruitment email address to send your queries to, not sure if this is the email address that you have already tried with no success.

Failing that, on the left hand side of their web page is link to a team list of all employees with their email details so you could send an email direct to the chief pilot or possibly one of the HR team. I imagine that the answer would be that they don’t know if they’ll recruit further cadets but keep an eye on the vacancies list where future cadet requirements will be listed. The reason I suspect that you will get this answer is that several months ago I contacted their chief pilot directly asking about pilot turnover and short term future requirements and I received a very polite reply inviting me to keep an eye on the vacancies section of their website.

[corsair]

Smaller operators like this have a problem with their pilots leaving once they gain experience. That's the nature of the beast. The catch 22 for these operators is that experienced pilots, the ideal candidates, won't apply and inexperienced pilots need more training and will move on as soon as they can. On top of that pilots want to fly, not do all the other dogsbody work.

I'd say you'd be lucky to keep a pilot for three years in those situations. That in my opinion is why they came up with this cadet scheme. They'll get at least three years out of him or her (although it will probably be a him) and when he's not flying he will be used to carrying out other duties.

For the right person it will be a good gig.

[Mikeoscar94]

Thankyou to both magicmick and corsair!

I got a reply from them saying they hope to continue it for further years :-)

How does an 18/19 y/o ex RAF air cadet, fitting all of the requirements, with a whole lot of enthusiasm sound for this? :8

[magicmick]

Hi Mike, your air cadet time will stand you in good stead with many organisations (not just APEM) both in and outside aviation, it all depends on the individual in charge of recruitment but faced with a large pile of CVs all from people with PPL and 100hrs you need to make yours stand out from the others and cadet membership will definitely do that for you.

Most teens have not done an awful lot with their time other than A levels and flying training so to have been a member of any of the military cadet organisations, to have played sport at a reasonable level (county level etc) or maybe to have travelled with a rucksack and a tent for a few months will get your CV noticed and pushed to the top of the pile.

The subject of military cadet forces was discussed on a thread some months ago and 2 contributors who were both involved in recruitment for airlines stated that membership of a military cadet force would get a CV through the first sift and on top of the pile for interview and assessment.

If/ when you get to interview the cadet force time will give you something to discuss with the interviewer and when they ask the dreaded ‘tell me about a time when…..’ questions you will have real life examples to regale them with.

As regards enthusiasm, you can be fairly sure that all applicants will claim to be enthusiastic about the job.

Good luck with the remainder of your flying training and A levels etc and if APEM do take another cadet later then I wish you well with your application.

[Joe86]

was an Air cadet for a few years, camps, gliding scholarship, sports and team building all did me in good stead, ok my interview was for engineering not flying, but still.... over 400 applicants I got 1 of 16 jobs and I’m a thicko!

[mad_jock]

For the right person it will be a good gig.

It will be an amazing gig for the right person who doesn't mind jumping in and doing anything thats asked. I would expect you will get some cracking flying and provide you with bar storys for the rest of your career.

[magicmick]

MJ is absolutely correct about the nature and diversity of the flying that APEM conduct. As just one example someone who did their CPL at the same time as me ended up flying for them (he’s not there now) but one of his first jobs with the company was to catch a commercial flight to Naples with another APEM pilot, pick up a new Vulcanair MEP survey aircraft from the factory and fly it back to UK, took them about 9 or 10 hours with fuel stops en route. The bar story generated by this trip was so good that at the time one of the monthly pilot magazines dedicated a few page article to it. However as MJ states such experiences are not for everyone and will only be savoured and enjoyed by an individual with the right outlook and attitude, so make sure that you enter the scheme with your eyes wide open.

[corsair]

It's absolutely true that having the right attitude is a great help in these jobs. I know from my own experience that choosing a pilot to suit your operation is harder than you might think considering all the CVs you get.

It's hard to define but you know when you see it and if they can fly well (surprisingly not always a given), you've found your pilot. But you can go through a lot of people to get there.

No doubt the successfull candidate for that job will tick all those boxes.

[magicmick]

I don’t work in recruitment (god forbid) but I can imagine that when faced with a mountain of CVs for one job you have to be pretty brutal in the initial sift and then you get a very brief interview/ assessment to decide which complete stranger you’re going to trust with your expensive aircraft. I don’t envy anyone that sort of decision.

[mad_jock]

Just shout through to the crew room.

"anyone know anyone looking for a job thats not a male chicken?"

[corsair]

decide which complete stranger you’re going to trust with your expensive aircraft.and customers. Even after lots of training, sending him out on his first unsupervised flight was like sending a student out on his first solo. If either the boss or I smoked we'd have burned a pack each by the time he landed back.

[magicmick]

So you and the boss didn't smoke but did you both drink? That will always calm the nerves!!!!!!!!

[corsair]

Absolutely, the only way you'll get me into one of those aeroplanes is after a stiff drink or two!

[magicmick]

I guess when you get into an aircraft and see someone that you recruited up front you must question your thought processes when you recruited them. Definitely time to chuck away the glass and swig straight from the bottle!!!!

[corsair]

No I hit the bottle when staff tell me the new guy is a better pilot! :{

We'll see, let's see how good he is when the elevators fall off.:E

[Mikeoscar94]

Thank you everyone for your replies! :-)

I'd try my best not to break it I promise ;-P

[Backontrack]

Hi to all

I've read all your posts in relation to this discussion, and to some extent, some of you are correct in your assumptions about the 'need' for this company to bond young and inexperienced pilots.

I am talking from first hand experience here, and it is not sour grapes for me as I am very well established in aviation now. I implore anyone considering this as an option to further their flying career to think very very hard. The company in question need to 'bond' as they cannot retain experienced pilots, as they are able to display strength of character and take a stand to say no to flying in inappropriate conditions. I cannot stand by and watch keen wannabes see this as an answer to their lack of opportunity in aviation today. Please steer clear of this 'offer' there are other options, ones which will not bind you to a company that is not interested in your personal development at all; they are purely interested in getting their pound of flesh.

It angers me that they now position themselves as assisting young pilots get a foothold in the industry. Trust me, this is not their motive. Stay, stay away. If only this company would have listened to past employees, they may not have found themselves floundering for people to stay with them. It's simple, 'Treat people as you expect to be treated', that way respect is developed in both directions, loyalty is established and trust earned, it's not hard, however, some people are just greedy bullies and cannot learn this simple lesson.

Good luck to all those fighting to get a break in this business, it is eventually worth it, but not via opportunities like this.

[magicmick]

Hi Backontrack, those are some pretty serious allegations, that’s not to say that I don’t believe you and I’m sure that you’ve grabbed the attention of anyone that has applied to the scheme or is considering making an application. Can you elaborate a little bit on your post with examples or experiences, obviously without getting libellous or compromising your identity?

Well done on getting established in aviation with a different operator, no mean feat in the current climate.

[PrestonPilot]

So what happens if they bond you, but then you say no to their pressure to fly unsafely? These warnings seem a bit needless.

[mad_jock]

Actually it works in your favour

Tell them to poke off if the wx is illegal and then they fire you and you won't have to pay the bond off. And all it will cost you is the price of a BALPA membership

[Dr Keith Hendry]

Dear Backontrack – as MD of APEM I feel strongly about the comments you have made and would like to put the record straight.

Your first hand experience of working in our company (APEM ltd) extended to 3.5 months during which you undertook aerial photography survey work primarily of the River Tyne in summer 2008. As you know, back then we had just one single engined aircraft, now we have 5, including four twins. You left abruptly after being offered another flying position, using us merely to get a step up the aviation ladder. You were never and would never have been asked to undertake any flying that was unsafe or asked to fly in “inappropriate conditions”. APEM is an aerial survey company specialising in aquatic science and for the survey work you were undertaking we required not only good aerial photography conditions (bright, sunny, no cloud) but also low river flows. As a pilot myself I do not understand how such conditions could be described as “inappropriate”. Inconvenient (to you) may be a better description.

In terms of personal development, again you appear to be misrepresenting our firm – we invest heavily in training for all our staff including our pilots (and we always have). APEM currently spends over £50,000 annually on training and professional support. This includes medical, currency ratings and line training for our pilots (currently 6 full-time and 3 part-time). Whilst our existing pilots are not bonded in any way for these costs, we expect individuals to respect the investment we make in them as professionals to ensure they can safely (and legally) undertake their duties. Hence, it is not unreasonable to ask them to give appropriate notice as specified in their employment contracts.

Whilst this has not always been the case, our staff retention rate as a company is extremely high. Since 2005 we have employed a total of fourteen pilots, nine of whom are still with us, you were the second and in the following 4 years only two individuals out of a total of eleven have left of their own accord. Indeed, our very first survey pilot has now returned and is flying with us again. Once more you appear to be misinformed.

APEM employs over 130 people and has operated a Graduate Training Programme (similar to an Apprenticeship Scheme) for the past 10 years, with over 50 individuals having passed through the system, ten of whom are still with the company today in a variety of roles. We spend around £3,000 each on the training (internal & external) of these people and have a sliding scale of ‘Bond’ to reflect that investment. It has worked well and is highly regarded scheme in the industry. It has kick-started many careers as well as providing the company with good quality professional workers, albeit in the early, and understandably mobile, stage of their working lives.

We regard the Pilot Cadetship scheme in exactly the same way – a means of providing the firm with skilled pilots well versed in the type of flying we undertake but also an opportunity to start a small number of careers for people wishing to gain a foothold in an industry full of entry level barriers. The investment in our Cadets, especially compared to the training figures for the overall company, is substantial. We hope to continue this each year with a new intake of Cadets but would be foolish if we did not try and protect that investment in some way. We are not trying to establish some feudal system of enforced slavery – our cadets will be paid a salary, the going rate during training and afterwards as survey pilots without being asked to pay anything back. The Bond is specifically in relation to the investment associated with becoming a fully qualified commercial survey pilot and as you know is the norm in the industry.

This is particularly important with individuals like yourself around, who think nothing of taking all they can from an employer and then leaving them abruptly when the opportunity presents itself to jump onto the next rung of the aviation ladder. I suggest you examine your own character and behaviour before making scurrilous and unfounded allegations against others.

The accusations you make are untrue. As a professional pilot - I question your judgement; and as an individual - I question the accuracy of your memory and the perverse recollection you have of your brief period of employment with us.

If any of the above is anyway untrue or misleading, I look forward to hearing from your solicitors – I somehow doubt that I shall.

Nevertheless glad to hear you are back on track.

If anyone reading these comments has any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Regards,

Dr Keith Hendry
Managing Director
APEM Ltd

[MichaelPL]

Am I mistaken, or has the application time window been extended? It says 31st July, did it say 29th June before or is it just me?

Good luck to all applying by the way.

[spacemonkeys]

It was definitely 29th June, whether the fact that they have lengthened the application window is a good or bad sign I'm not entirely sure. Either way best of luck to everyone.

[Scott C]

I would love to apply, but unfortunately Hawarden is at least 85miles from my house, so with the route i'd have to take to get there, it'd take me 1hr 45mins to get there at best :(

[EK4457]

Scott C,

Whilst I'm the first to admit I know nothing of your personal circumstances, this is very much the kind of posistion you either commute to or reclocate for.

If you want to get on in this game, you need to be flexible and take whatever is offered early in your career.

Do you really expect to be a commercial pilot based in Staffordshire for the rest of your life? If you think about this properly, you'll probably find you will need to relocate sooner rather than later.

EK.

[Scott C]

Hi EK4457,

I appreciate that I would probably have to relocate at some point, but at present I am not in a position to do so, due to running my own business...I can't just stop and move away, it would take me several months to wind things down.

I could commute, but APEM have asked that applicants live within a 1 hour drive of the airport. Therefore, I have thought about staying there for the week, but I would have to return to Tamworth on Friday afternoon until Sunday, for a short while at least, due to my other work.

As for my location in Staffordshire, I don't think it should be that much of a problem. I live 2 minutes from J10 of the M42, so I can be at Birmingham or East Midlands Airport within 20mins or so and I can be at coventry in 30mins.

Should a job opportunity arise within the Midlands, I think I am in a pretty good location...who knows!