Europort Express

[Wingman1000]

Has anybody information regarding Europort Express:
Europort Express - An Aviation Project by Zivazu Ltd (http://www.europortexpress.com/)
Exit3 Design :: Europort Express (http://exit3.co.uk/europort.html)

[Cyrano]

Only two comments:

1. Flat fares, no revenue management :ugh::ugh::ugh:
2. Flying to destinations including "London Southbend Airport" :rolleyes:

[pug]

Where does it suggest flat fares? Also it suggests flying to airports in areas with significant offshore and port industries.

Edit; one of those links I hadnt seen before. I see what you mean about flat fares, however its pretty clear that they are targetting port traffic, and are perhaps hoping that there will be business accounts set up, perhaps how they could sell remaining seats at a flat rate?

[Cyrano]

We are to operate a strict "Same route, same date, same fare" policy. Whether you book three months or three days in advance, you can always expect to pay the same set fare for the date of travel. We won't penalise you for peak or seasonal travel.

The problem with this, and the reason why as far as I know no airline operating in a competitive environment actually applies flat fares, is that you lose early-booking traffic (because you're far more expensive than the advance-purchase leisure fares to Amsterdam) and you don't adequately compensate with revenue from late-booking fares.

pug, I do agree with you that if there is specific marine-oriented traffic, there may be a potential business demand - as long as the frequency is competitive. However one of the airline's key selling points seems to be that it gives you a fabric bag as a souvenir - that doesn't really strike me as a compelling marketing proposition for port/oil business travellers... ;)

[pug]

I know what you mean, we have heard it all before with these new start ups.

What we know is they want to serve 10 routes initially, with two regional aircraft, at a flat fare of €29.99.. I would like to know who is backing this and if they have any credibility, but we will have to wait until mid June by the looks of it.

[Fairdealfrank]

Think "flat fares" went out in the 1970s.

Before that, IATA regulated fares and these were the same on all its member (mostly government-owned) carriers. There were just two classes, with first class (F) fares being double those in economy (Y). The industry was heavily regulated, to an extent that is unbelievable today.

Only the rich, the elites and airline staff (on staff travel) could travel like this, everyone else was on charters out of LTN.

[Cyrano]

I know what you mean, we have heard it all before with these new start ups.

What we know is they want to serve 10 routes initially, with two regional aircraft, at a flat fare of €29.99.. I would like to know who is backing this and if they have any credibility, but we will have to wait until mid June by the looks of it.

I didn't see that info on the website - it's very interesting and utterly insane. Two reasons: first, with two aircraft they'll manage a maximum of eight round trips per day on average, so 40 Mon-Fri. Ten destinations means less than once-daily service to each, and that's just not attractive for business passengers who can choose from multiple daily flights to/from AMS. And second, if I am a business passenger who needs to go to the Netherlands for a meeting tomorrow, I'll easily be prepared to pay a couple of hundred euros (likely a lot more). To sell me a ticket at €29.99 one way is not smart, it's just leaving money on the table. Google "consumer surplus" for more on this.

Sorry, but this will not work like this. Either it will never take off or it will rapidly modify its pricing and/or network.

[Aero Mad]

Think "flat-fares" went out in the 1970s

Several airlines still have flat fares including Blue Islands in the Channel Islands - which operates in a competitive environment against Flybe and Aurigny.

[TwinAisle]

Not for the first time I find myself in complete agreement with Cyrano. Flat fares hammer cash flows - unless these guys have very deep pockets to provide a lot of working capital, this is a non runner.

TA

[Phileas Fogg]

There are only 9 airports, 8 destinations served from/to RTM, listed on their website so by Cyrano's calculations they would serve each destination once daily, I agree that many a destination should have a morning and evening service but each to their own ... perhaps they'll serve some destinations twice daily and other destinations only every other day ... or whatever!

[Expressflight]

Cyrano, as usual, is talking sense.

Why adopt a flat fares policy in this day and age? The software is readily available to operate a booking system based upon yield management, the travelling public are well used to the idea and it encourages early booking with its positive effect on cash flow. The fares being quoted hardly suggest that the business traveller is their prime target, so it doesn't really seem to make any sense at all.

If they really are in a position to put tickets on sale on 11 June 2012 and commence ops on 17 September 2012 one would assume the finance is already in place. On the other hand of course........

[Phileas Fogg]

I'm developing a resort and there's just one 'flat fare' for the rooms, well there's a rack rate and a promo rate but there's no financial incentive to book early except that it's first come, first served, if one wants to secure their room (seat) then they book early.

Why would I want to offer early booking discounts, particularly during the high season?

[TwinAisle]

Why would I want to offer early booking discounts, particularly during the high season?

Because it gives you cash NOW. Most travel businesses work in negative WIP, and you need cash as soon as you can get it.

TA

[Tableview]

Flat fares cannot work in a competitive environment, and in the airline industry there is no other environment.

Several airlines still have flat fares including Blue Islands in the Channel Islands

I use them from time to time and they don't have flat fares. I think this bears that out :

http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w497/pprunemike/SI.jpg

[pug]

A response from someone behind it, on another forum. It goes some way to answer some of our concerns.


Good morning,

First I'd like to start out by saying how great it is to see online communities dedicated to the success and development of regional airports like Humberside. We have *no* idea where the all of a sudden interest came form over the last 24 hours, but it had to come at some point. I'd like to take a few minutes here to respond to some of your comments, just to avoid situations relating to misinterpreted information.

"their route map has a number located very close to HUY, though frustratingly it isn't decoded. It must be us or DSA though"
- It is indeed to be HUY. HUY will be one of the first routes to be available.

"It looks like it is planned to primarily serve the shipping business judging by most of the destinations, and the name. There are strong links between the Humber and Rotterdam (though is that already catered for by KLM?).. This does however just appear to be a concept at present and will only fully believe it when I see them on the tarmac.

Good to see something interesting all the same."
- This is indeed the case. We are aware of the existing demand routing via AMS, we want to bring them straight to Rotterdam. This IS targeted at the modern day business traveller, but should also prove to be a route of interest during holiday periods for the leisure traveller.

"I dont like the sound of flat fares, weve heard it all before."
- Flat fares are proposed for "Same route, same date" - it is not a matter of every flight to/from HUY will be fixed at £X. The pricing will be fixed for a set flight number on a set date. This is however, subject to change. We hope we can continue with this policy, but we need to ensure we are able to react to market conditions effectively.

"From what we know so far.

2 aircraft, 9 routes.. Either low frequency or w patterns, or perhaps with the intention to sell through tickets? I.e RTM-HUY-DUB.

Flat fares, with fares on the screenshots quoted as €29.99, so would surely need to be bigger than a J41. More something like a Dash 8-400.. It also looks like they want to set up some kind of credit system. Perhaps hoping that companies will effectively block book set seats per month for regular travel?"

-Two aircraft will initially be in operation, but not all eight routes will be available instantly. You can initially expect a minimum of two rotations per day (with three on some days) to HUY. "€29.99" is merely a placeholder price put on to our website design by the design agency which was contracted to create it.

If you have questions or concerns, there's a contact e-mail on our website at the moment. You can also follow us on Facebook + Twitter to keep in the loop.

-Meilina

[Barling Magna]

Is this really from someone behind Europort Express, I wonder? Perhaps they can contact again on this forum and we can ask them some more questions....

[pug]

Is this really from someone behind Europort Express, I wonder? Perhaps they can contact again on this forum and we can ask them some more questions....

It appears they have invited people to contact them direct with questions..

If you have questions or concerns, there's a contact e-mail on our website at the moment. You can also follow us on Facebook + Twitter to keep in the loop.

There is no reason to not believe that this is someone behind this airline.

Im always skeptical when it comes to new start-ups, but I dont think we know enough about this one (particularly regarding who is backing it) to accurately judge just yet.

[Phileas Fogg]

Guys,

There was one particular aviation venture that I became involved in a number of years back, being so involved in it I was seriously busy in the office, answering email enquiries, providing information etc. when I became aware that a pPruNe thread had been started regarding it and indeed the product was coming in for a 'flaming', in the main from a younger generation who had little, if any, idea what they were talking about.

In attempt to put a stop to this flaming I made a post to the effect that they were mistaken and for more information they should contact the office, they, pretty much, refused to do so whilst they continued flaming the product on pPruNe.

pPruNe survives by commercial advertising, they take it VERY seriously, and like the position I found myself in, I wasn't paying pPruNe for commercial advertising so I couldn't actually talk about my product on pPruNe, Europort won't be in a position to talk about their product here either unless they pay pPruNe for commercial advertising.

I've just read a couple of posts ... "I'm always skeptical" ... "to accurately judge yet" ... "to answer some of our concerns".

Please, just remember, this is all one way traffic, subject to moderation you all enjoy the freedom of speech ... Europort will not be in a position to respond to your posts because it will be interpreted that they will be commercially advertising.

And, No, I'm not involved in Europort, I live on a Pacific Ocean island.

[SWBKCB]

Comment on another forum that a mix of Fokker 50 and Jetstream 32's will be used. Facebook also mentions Jetstream 32's to Hamburg starting January 2013.

[Expressflight]

Whether or not there is any substance to Europort Express or not I honestly don't know.

What does surprise me though is that if they are planning to put flights on sale on 11th June and flights commence on 17th September one would expect to be able to source information on the net concerning post holders and their address etc.. I can find nothing, so perhaps we should remain cautious on this one for the time being.

[TwinAisle]

Unusual routes.
Jetstreams.
No sign of who the directors are.
The word Express in the name.

I'm getting a very real sense of déjà vu....

TA

[xtypeman]

Oh no not again another school boy project sic. When will they end as TA says Jetstreams ah! Fixed fares ah! Route network ah! need I go on. Tieing into a port scenario just forgets about ferries and the tunnel what is the market they are after. Moving ships crews? You would need to offer routes to Russia and the Phillipines for that. Moving cargo sorry from Rotterdam that would be by a container. Cant see Stenna breaking into a sweat over this. Now if it was a Lo-cost offering sunspots and capitals with a fleet of A319s or 737-700 then there is a possibility. But you would need very very deep pockets.

[Expressflight]

There seems to be a commercial link between a Mr Jason Scales and Europort Express.

[Barling Magna]

That will be the 17 year old, former child entrepreneur wizz-kid will it....?

[TwinAisle]

http://www.dreamwidth.org/userpic/47021/67672

[JSCL]

@Barling Magna,

I have messaged @Expressflight about this, it's a false connection. A stupid one at that. I don't know where his information stems from, but it's completely off track.

[xtypeman]

Now now TA if this was Cambridge, then all we would need is a Skullion.....

XT

[Barling Magna]

Hello JSCL. Expressflight can reply for himself, but I've always found him a reliable source in the past, especially about events concerning SEN. I'd like to see Europort Express operate successfully, so time will tell......

[Expressflight]

Barling Magna

Your faith in my accuracy is not misplaced on this occasion either when I said that "there is a commercial link" between this person and Europort Express.

Quite why my post should produce such an angry rebuke from JSCL is rather mystifying.

[Aero Mad]

On a forum called Web Hosting Talk, his username is JSCL.

GoDaddy Price Hike [Archive] - Web Hosting Talk (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/archive/index.php/t-945805.html)

An odd coincidence to say the very least.

[Richard Taylor]

Of course! JSCL...Jason Scales.

So another teenage wizz with aviation ambitions...or fantasies.

I found this comment he made on the Eastern thread quite interesting -

"The Dornier is a VERY expensive craft to operate. The Jetstreams are more economical, they're workhorses too."

Hence the Jetstream as a proposed choice of aircraft for this company, I assume.

So will he be another SRB...or another **? As someone said, we've seen this before, only this one's based in Rotterdam, not Oxford...or Cambridge...or Isle of Man or wherever it was.

Young man, I hope you & whatever backers you have have the finance...I hope you're not pulling everyone's plonker. At the moment, I'm with the sceptics - especially with the current state of the economy.

Prove us wrong, I would love you to. But I don't think you will.

[CelticRambler]

Oh no not again another school boy project sic.

Yeah - just look at that juvenile Zuckerberg. When did a school boy ever know what he was doing.

I find it amusing to read the endlessly repeated recommendation of high business fares, double daily returns and a policy of hiking up the price at the last minute being essential to the viability of an airline when (a) it's hard to find an airline that's anywhere near as financially healthy as the wider retail community - except that Irish airline directed by a shopkeeper - and (b) everyone I know in business (small and large) has been receiving memos to say "Use the 'phone or video-conferencing for your foreign networking. If you have to meet up face-to-face, use a budget airline or some other mode of transport."

[Aero Mad]

Use the 'phone or video-conferencing for your foreign networking. If you have to meet up face-to-face, use a budget airline or some other mode of transport

Have these same people been later receiving memos saying 'seek alternative employment as soon as possible' by any chance?

[Tableview]

Yeah - just look at that juvenile Zuckerberg. When did a school boy ever know what he was doing.

He broke ground with an untried and untested product where previously none existed and he may have been in the right place at the right time.

Europort Express is up against threats of substitutes and competition, the precedents have been set and the business model doesn't work. Maybe this time it will, but I won't be selling my firstborn child to buy shares!

[lgtjanssen]

Surprisingly (not), there's not a single news item on the new airline on the website of RTM airport, nor are there any slot requests if you look into the SACN (Stichting Airport Coordination Netherlands) website (which usually is very up-to-date). Thus either SACN "has forgotten" to list the slots for Europort Express, they don't start during S12 or they don't exist at all. My guess is on the latter.

[Phileas Fogg]

You mean that slots are a crucial part of operations in/out of such busy airfields as RTM, MME, HUY, SEN etc?

[airhumberside]

RTM is slot controlled

[Phileas Fogg]

And it will be really difficult to get slot(s) at RTM because it is so busy there?

My girlfriend and I are currently developing a business, we're building a resort on this remote island, we've got SO MANY things going on whichever way we may turn there are jobs that need doing.

Were we developing an airline do you really believe one of our top priorities would be to apply for slots for services that aren't even happening for a further four months and the schedules of which haven't even been decided/finalised?

It's kind of like suggesting that they won't have any crews because no crew hotel accommodation has been booked yet!

[xtypeman]

PF slots and schedules are a key part of an airline business. If you are planning an airline then one of the key aspects of the plan will be a schedule and slots are an intrinsig part of the process. It does not matter that X or Y airport are not busy what matters is the time you need the slot for. To produce your schedule you need the slots and these are applied for for the season. As we know currently we are in the midst of the W12 slot allocation.
You need to look at what a key part of the business the schedule realy is. From the schedule you would set up your reservation system. This would give you the amount of seats avaliable so you can then get into the realms of ASK's RPK's etc. You can also start your engineering planning and crew planning all vital parts of the business plan and all required by your relevant aviation authority. I am sure Cyrano and Twin Ailse will also tell you how important slots are.

[Cyrano]

And it will be really difficult to get slot(s) at RTM because it is so busy there?

My girlfriend and I are currently developing a business, we're building a resort on this remote island, we've got SO MANY things going on whichever way we may turn there are jobs that need doing.

Were we developing an airline do you really believe one of our top priorities would be to apply for slots for services that aren't even happening for a further four months and the schedules of which haven't even been decided/finalised?

It's kind of like suggesting that they won't have any crews because no crew hotel accommodation has been booked yet!

Phileas, your crew hotac booking analogy is amusing but - I'm afraid - entirely misleading. Unlike hotel bookings, there is a very rigid calendar for slot applications. Two things:

1. RTM is slot constrained, not because it's full, but because of fairly draconian environmental restrictions which limit movements to a fraction of the airport's theoretical capacity. Above all a carrier planning to base itself in RTM would need to be very sure that it could get all the slots it needed.

2. Xtypeman is quite right: the W12 slot allocation process is currently underway (slot calendar PDF (http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/passenger/scheduling/Documents/cal-slot-act.pdf)). Any carrier wanting to operate to RTM in the winter season will have needed to file their slot requests already. SACN will provide initial allocations of W12 slots by the end of May.

Based on the SACN S12 slot information, as lgtjanssen says, there is no slot-based evidence that Europort Express is really preparing to start before the winter season.

Now it's always possible that they have had informal discussions with the airport and the coordinator to establish what is available in summer and are entirely confident of getting what they want, but based on the opinions I heard at Routes Europe this week from at least one of the other airports they are proposing to serve :rolleyes: let's just say that I would not be holding my breath...

[TwinAisle]

And the schedule drives everything. Until a schedule is pretty solidly finalised, at least in terms of frequencies, business planning is at best just estimation. Schedules drive capacity, which drives revenue. Schedules also drive costs. Costs and revenues are the basis of the plan, and drive cash flows, cash requirement and that in turn drives the funding plan.

If the schedule isn't bolted down, then all else is a bit woolly.

Alternatively, they are assuming that the slots will be available in the same form as their plans - which is one hell of a business risk.

TA

[Barling Magna]

This is from a SEN supporters F'book page, a reply from Europort Express to a question about flights into SEN. Make of it what you will.......:

We are at present confirming our schedules set for September 2012 and whether or not we can include London Southend in our Phase 1 route launches on September 17th. This initial phase will see the introduction of only two routes initially. We will then be looking to add a further four from our list in January 2013 and the remainder in April 2013.

Rotterdam to Norwich was a route considered when we were performing our in depth route analysis on cross-channel routes from Rotterdam The Hague Airport but we chose London Southend as our south of England airport due to the high speed rail links, close proximity to the port of Tilbury and related industries, all of which have a strong relationship with Rotterdam and The Hague.

At this time, I am unable to provide you with fare details. This information will become available leading up to the opening of our website next month. Once routes are confirmed and become on sale, they will be jointly announced by the airports. Our core announcement in co-operation with Rotterdam The Hague Airport is due first. Please remember that some of the routes on our landing page are *prospective* routes we hope to add to the schedules.


Do let me know if you have any further questions.

--
Ryan Hayfield
Europort Express
connecting you to Europort!

[lgtjanssen]

Forgot to ask, but does anyone know if they've an AOC already or whose AOC they're going to use? Some reports are that they don't have one (yet). Or is this also something they're in the progress of getting before June 11th (as no airline is allowed to sell seats if they don't have an AOC or using the AOC from somebody else.

BTW just for those interested, RTM has 2,284 slots left for S12.

[Cyrano]

Forgot to ask, but does anyone know if they've an AOC already or whose AOC they're going to use? Some reports are that they don't have one (yet). Or is this also something they're in the progress of getting before June 11th (as no airline is allowed to sell seats if they don't have an AOC or using the AOC from somebody else.

BTW just for those interested, RTM has 2,284 slots left for S12.

I'd be astonished if they had their own AOC or were getting it at this stage. Obtaining your own AOC is a time-consuming and expensive business - it requires among other things that you demonstrate to the authorities that you have employed a number of experienced postholders for key roles. I don't see evidence of that kind of planning and resourcing here. (Note: lack of AOC is not necessarily negative. Starting by wet-leasing aircraft from an AOC holder, and then getting your own AOC later, is a perfectly valid way to start - ask easyJet. Remaining a "ticket agent" rather than a real airline indefinitely is a bit less glorious.)

[thebobster]

The following article may answer some questions:


Airline in the making, Europort Express announced last week its intentions to fly to 9 different destinations from its operating base in Rotterdam, famous for its vast port and closeness to The Hague and Amsterdam.

Six destinations in the UK & Ireland are featured, these include struggling airport Durham Tees Valley alongside major hubs of Manchester and Dublin, many of the destinations also have close sea port links which suggests that the airline are looking to compete with the North Sea ferry operators.

During an interview the airlines Press Officer Meilina Crampton stated that the airlines main intention was to focus on the business traveller, however said “it would be a major issue if we ignored the leisure market, therefore our marketing campaigns will look to draw in both business and leisure flyers”

The aircraft chosen have been specifically selected so the airline will be able to operate multiple rotations per day therefore they are more suited to the traveller, the example being used that on some flights there may not be a demand for the 50 seat Fokker 50 a Dutch made aircraft, so the smaller 19 seat Jetstream 32 can be used to save on operating costs whilst keeping the airline competitive.

Europort Express also hope to have the exclusive use of these routes, as they believe there is only so much demand so the bigger companies such as the Dutch flag carrier KLM will not try to compete, nor will Cityjet who have cut back on routes since their take over of VLM.

The airline also hope to be seen as a substitute to flying to Rotterdam instead of Amsterdam Schiphol, where the likes of KLM and British Airways fly, as they believe there is a gap in the market for Rotterdam services.

The airline hopes to enter the market on a semi-low cost objective therefore providing affordable prices, but still being able to make profit and supply a good service, some of which has already been announced, such as the inflight catering service, in which every passenger will be entitled to a meal.

Due to the small size of the aircraft that will be used it is hard to offer a totally low cost method due to the operating costs for an aircraft carrying between 19 and 50 passengers. Unlike Ryanair who can carry in excess of 150 and make a tidy profit whilst offering low fares.

The ambitions for the airline have been made perfectly clear with their intentions being to hold a Dutch Air Operators Certificate within 2 year, but up until that stage the airline will use chartered aircraft and operate as a ticketing agency like the highly successful Manx2 airline which flies to many short-haul destinations from the Isle of Man.

Set to start operations on September 17th 2012, most flights will not start until January, therefore giving enough time to gain public interest and establish a good customer base at the destinations.

Bobster

[Tableview]

Looks good on paper. So did the Euro.

[Phileas Fogg]

Until they got rid of them KLM could only justify F50's (nothing larger) on the RTM LHR route, I can't see how F50's may be justified on lesser yield RTM routes.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Looks good on paper. So did the Euro."

Have to disagree with the second part: the euro concept was obviously flawed from the start, and fortunately, the UK, Denmark and Sweden have had the good sense to stay well away!

[johnnychips]

Until they got rid of them KLM could only justify F50's (nothing larger) on the RTM LHR route, I can't see how F50's may be justified on lesser yield RTM routes

Quite. VLM/Cityjet dropped MAN-RTM with a F50, and MAN is quite a big airport. The service on board was very good too.

One could argue that this service failed because of the high frequency of MAN-AMS services in competition. But most airports seem to have an Amsterdam service with easyjet and/or KLM. And if it's KLM, I expect business passengers will value their SkyTeam air miles (or whatever they're called). It's not that far by train from Schipol to Rotterdam, and I have no doubt that very important business passengers may have their firm's driver pick them up or be able to claim a taxi.

A fifty seater needs some filling of economy seats and, with respect, Rotterdam is not a tourist Mecca; a nineteen seater needs businessmen and women.

[lgtjanssen]

I couldn't help wondering if their plans could be feasible, even if everything goes according to plan.

RTM is slot controlled. The current cap for S12 is 11,828 slots of which 9,544 were allocated (thus leaving 2,284). Now, if you want a weekday only service you need 420 slots for S12. Assuming that all the current operators will use their historic allocation for S13 that leaves 2,284 slots + a few for growth. Moreover, also assuming that BA won't start LHR-RTM and that all slots go to Europort Express (which the current operators won't like) you have 2,284 / 420 = 5.4 trips left for S13 when only operating on weekdays (lets say 6 take offs + landings). Question, how can you operate a business friendly schedule with more than 2 destinations out of RTM? OK maybe they shut down for the entire holiday period (saving 1,680 slots) but even then the average number of trips will only increase to 6.7. Or will RTM see a very large increase in slots the coming years?

BTW I know my calculations carry a lot of assumptions and are based on S12 rather than the S13 situation, but as far as I know historic slot slot allocations are based on the same season (thus S12 vs S13). Moreover, if BA starts to fly to RTM, the pool of slots will probably go down drastically, unless LH or another airline suddenly decides to drop RTM. Ultimately I can't see any airline operating into RTM serving 9 destinations at a business friendly schedule (thus at least twice a day on weekdays, which will mean 7,560 S12 slots). At least, not as long as AF/KL control 70% of the slots at RTM (AF/KL control 8,300 out of the 11,828 slots for S12). Thus my conclusion is their ultimate plan can not be achieved out of RTM.

[jabird]

I am always deeply cynical about an airline which claims to be providing a niche regional service but has a picture of what looks like a 737 variant on its home page, but let's put that aside for a minute:

we chose London Southend as our south of England airport due to the high speed rail links

Come on! Beware of airlines named Express, and even more wary of airport "express" trains, of which the train serving LLS-SEN most certainly is not!

However, there is a very good express rail service (shame about the rolling stock) connecting AMS with Rotterdam Centraal in just less than 30 minutes.

So why fly to RTM instead?

1) Very short taxi times - especially compared to landing on the Polderbaan
2) Tiny terminal compared to vast AMS.
3) Still closer to city of Rotterdam, Europort and The Hague - easy to jump in a taxi to these destinations if business is paying.

First question is - can a route be sustained on this basis? I don't question that there is demand from all the airports discussed above to get to these locations, but the Ranstad region is effectively one very well connected city, with AMS at its centre.

Clearly, there are enough people who appreciate the advantages of RTM for the LCY route to be popular, and I see BA are also starting an LHR route. That is London. Very large population and business needs.

For anywhere else, AMS seems to work perfectly well, and it has the additional advantage that routes which would otherwise be wafer thin are feeding connections to elsewhere.

There is a long standing ABZ-GRQ bmi regional route, but can this really be compared to RTM? I just don't see it - GRQ is a good 2 1/2 hours from Amsterdam.

Rotterdam isn't just a port - there is a fair bit of finance industry in the city centre, and I would guess this traffic would a) generate better yields and b) still use LCY or LHR - never SEN.

I'm not getting excited about this one.

[Phileas Fogg]

In a previous life I occupied a summer season living and working in/from the Holiday Inn, Leiden whilst managing an A310 'we' had on detachment to Transavia (AMS) for that summer, the year was 1998 should anyone wish to search for 'Transavia' & 'Airbus' on such a site as airliners.net to establish who 'we' were.

Being halfway between AMS & RTM I learned a lot that summer, particularly of RTM, whereas one could step off the aircraft and be thru the terminal and at the car hire desk or in the car park within a matter of minutes.

In a more recent life I travelled, on ID00 travel, thru RTM on a number of occasions, 10 minutes from aircraft via baggage reclaim to hire car desk, then up to my old haunt of Holiday Inn, Leiden for a night before continuing to Schiphol the next morning for my flight back to BHX or wherever.

As others have, in some part, pointed out, AMS is very well rail connected and KLM, these days, only operate jets, it'll be quicker, just as an example, to KLM it ABZ/AMS then take a train in to central Rotterdam, or Den Haag, than it would to take a geriatric turbo-prop direct in to RTM then to fart around with taxi's etc.

That's the problem ... AMS is so well served, both by air but by surface transport also!

[AirGuru]

Tickets are apparently going on sale via telephone and online tomorrow. Whether they will is another matter. Does anyone know if they have sourced aircraft yet ?

[onyxcrowle]

Nothing on the website , Seems unlikely

[onyxcrowle]

Predictable but guess what the day the tickets were meant to go on sale and nothing . So much for a new airline . Looks a bit like that so called startup hiair that never happened or worse the whole jetxtra

[pug]

Predictable but guess what the day the tickets were meant to go on sale and nothing . So much for a new airline . Looks a bit like that so called startup hiair that never happened or worse the whole jetxtra

Not necessarily disagreeing with your sentiments, but where exactly have you contributed any useful opinions on the subject? You seem to have written them off based solely on the fact that they are a proposed new airline and nothing else.

Quite how you can compare them to Jetxtra or Hiair, considering you dont know who is behind Europort Express is completely beyond me.

[onyxcrowle]

I'm comparing them based on the fact that they made a big announcement about starting and so on and yet nothing . Actions speak louder than words . Doncaster would have been the startup site for Hi Air but nothing ever came of it . Jetxtra was full of it and nothing came of it . Yet here we are again with announcements and nothing of substance following it . But drop your venomous comments a bit toward me this is an open forum not a place for you to constantly take a swipe at everything I write as you do elsewhere !

[Phileas Fogg]

Did they actually make a 'BIG ANNOUNCEMENT' or did they merely partially construct a website that, somehow, found it's way on to pPrune?

I've a resort website that remains under construction, in some respects it's a load of bollox, things written that I shall subsequently change, absolutely no photo's because the buildings aren't yet built, the room rates are wrong and need adjusting, even the online booking address is wrong and I need to sort these things out before proceeding 'online' any further ...

Thank heavens that some of you lot haven't stumbled across my resort website else you'd be branding me a dreamer, a scammer, a whatever else!

[pug]

onyxcrowle, at one time Jet2 and Easyjet made a big announcement before they started flights! The thing is, we knew who was behind them from the start, as we did Hiair and jetXtra, but Europort Express haven't even made an announcement. Speculation apart there is no solid proof about who is behind this. It could well be another A-level business project, or it could be backed by a shipping company based in Rotterdam for all we know.

There are possible holes in this model as others have pointed out, but you cant simply rule them out based on a website under construction. Call it taking a swipe all you want, it is an open forum as you say, and I disagree with what you are saying.

[onyxcrowle]

It's interesting though that the airports they claim to be planning to operating from have nothing about this . Granted HUY won't after making a big announcement about jetxtra .
But MME needs all the help it can get and they haven't even bothered

[pug]

It's interesting though that the airports they claim to be planning to operating from have nothing about this . Granted HUY won't after making a big announcement about jetxtra .
But MME needs all the help it can get and they haven't even bothered


Why would they? Its not the airport's job to make an announcement if the airline hasn't agreed a date to announce anything.

Humberside have been in talks with whoever is behind this, so the relevent people there know about them.

[jabird]

I've a resort website that remains under construction, in some respects it's a load of bollox

Yes, but if the resort itself remains in construction, this is a different kettle of fish. You have a fixed asset. Visible to passers-by or anyone who wants to snoop from the edge. You have a set timescale - buildings need designs permits and foundations before anything sprouts up. Then even when the building is topped out you need to finish the exteriors and make all the interior fittings.

What evidence do you have that a paper airline is anything more than just that? Are there aircraft on the production time waiting for the Europort logo to be applied? No. Are there airport buildings being extended to make room for this new airline? No.

So most of what we have to go on is based on rumour or assessment of the market. I don't doubt that there are people who want to fly from the airports in question to RTM. If these new routes were to Norway or western Denmark, and research had proven a market, maybe we'd be less sceptical. But this is RTM, just down the line from AMS.

I just don't see how an airline can compete against such a large, well connected and established hub - even if RTM will be a much smaller airfield to use, AMS is just too close.

[pug]

I just don't see how an airline can compete against such a large, well connected and established hub - even if RTM will be a much smaller airfield to use, AMS is just too close.

The main point is, who is behind this? I agree with most of the scrutiny of this proposal, not least the fact that most of the proposed routes would go into direct competition with KLM at AMS, however we simply do not know who is/was behind this.

It could be just another 17 year old 'baby branson' type. However it could also be backed by a major shipping firm based in Rotterdam. Despite the first scenario probably being the most likely, we just dont know for definate as no official announcement has been made.

[Tableview]

I have negotiated with the owner of a DC-10 which is currently parked in Arizona and they are going to lease it to me for $500 a day. I'm going to fill it with fuel and fly it to CPT from where I'll start a service to LHR to replace the service which SAA are dropping. We will give all the passengers first class seats for a flat fare of ZAR2500 each way, all dates. I know I can make money as it is a gap in the market. We're going to call it 'Head in The Clouds Airlines'.

The above is about as plausible and as likely to come to fruition and be successful as Europort Express.

[davidjohnson6]

Maybe Europort will do some commercial flying of passengers, or maybe it won't get to that stage - I'm not qualified to give a definitive opinion.

However, if it doesn't actually put tickets on sale, that might actually be a good thing. If you are in the process of setting up a business, and realise early on it's not going to make any money, much better to admit defeat and pull out at an early stage with a slightly red face rather than hire people, take people's money for bookings and then end up with a disastrous failure.

You can't be an entrepreneur and never make mistakes.

[Phileas Fogg]

I'm tentative about putting my resort rooms up for sale at the moment for fear that they may not be ready to go on sale by the deadline I had hoped for.

Am I right, to hold back until I am more sure, or am I wrong, that I should start selling, take the punters money, only to utter thereafter "Up Yours"?

[jabird]

Am I right, to hold back until I am more sure, or am I wrong, that I should start selling, take the punters money, only to utter thereafter "Up Yours"?

The sooner you put the rooms on sale, the more chance you have of filling them at the price you want. A hotel room is a perishable product, but not as perishable as an airline seat.

Your uncertainty is whether or not the rooms will be ready for the first few weeks (months) of your opening.

You still have a fixed asset in the hotel.

Not the same as a paper airline using someone else's AOC.

[CelticRambler]

Did they actually make a 'BIG ANNOUNCEMENT' or did they merely partially construct a website that, somehow, found it's way on to pPrune?

In fact, the majority of critics here seem to be basing their information not on the one-page "call us if you want to know more" official website that makes no significant announcement but a screenshot taken from the web-design company's portfolio.

Considering IATA's revised financial forecast for European airlines, it would seem reasonable to assume that the usual business model is well and truly defunct and any alternative can't be worse so might in fact be better. :ok:

This thread (and others) make frequent reference to competing for a slice of the same challenging market. What is it about the airline industry that feels the need to perpetually cannibalise itself and while desperately trying to cling on to customers that are voting with their feet (and wallets) against the status quo? There are other opportunities out there, but that means doing things differently, maybe even floating an idea and letting the paying public shape the product before it's launched. :eek:

And FGS would someone point out to the industry that we're all suffering the effects of high fuel prices (and some of us even have to pay tax on it) so stop using that as an excuse for bad business management. :*

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

I see where you are coming from, that I have concrete blocks and mortar as opposed to, perhaps, merely a reservations system of another party(s) aircraft, perhaps this is a general distrust of the paper airline concept, I don't know.

But it's not merely blocks and mortar vs paper airline ... both are businesses that need to have all the pieces of the jigsaw in place before opening the doors.

Of course, the sooner I start selling the better chance I have of filling the rooms but ..... to get our 'brand' known, and talked about on such site(s) as tripadvisor, I'm planning an introductory room rate for the initial 6 months (ish), this is to hopefully prove positive, get us a good reputation and well talked about ..... or should I put the rooms on sale too early and then have to contact clients, who have paid up front, "we're sorry etc." to get ourselves talked about negatively and, from before we even start, receive a negative reputation?

I prefer to hold out for a little while longer ... patience is a wonderful thing! :)

[Expressflight]

I think all this comparison of a "paper airline" to a resort under construction is pointless. An progress trail presumable exists for the resort over some considerable time with enough information in the public domain for a judgement to be made on its genuineness or not.

Europort Express isn't even strictly a "paper airline"; it's a virtual internet invention which may or may not have any existence beyond the fantasies and/or hopes of its originators. Those who view Air Humberside's forum will know that someone claiming to be a representative of EE has posted there a few times with the rationale behind the project, but when asked to elaborate or to offer some convincing evidence of its ability to commence services as claimed, they offer no response. Why would they fail to do this? I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

What annoys me about 'start-ups' which claim so much and yet offer no evidence to back up their claims is that in the internet age it is easy to make it look as if there is substance there when none actually exists. Each time this happens it makes it even harder for genuine start-ups to achieve any credibility when seeking funds. Two examples of genuine, asset based start-ups trying to establish themselves are JOIN and FlyGLM. I happen to know personally the people behind both of those and can assure you that the will and the effort is still being put into making their plans a reality, whereas I have yet to come across anyone who knows from personal experience that Europort Express is anything more than someone's ego trip dream. I don't know that for a fact of course and really do wish them well if they are genuine, but experience has taught me that rising smoke doesn't always mean that there is a genuine fire beneath it.

[Phileas Fogg]

Rise above it Expressflight, you live in UK, why should a Dutch start-up operation be of annoyance to you?

Everyone to their own though ... I prefer to become annoyed when the San Miguel isn't cold enough. :)

[Expressflight]

I thought I had made clear the reason for my annoyance with unrealistic start-up projects. Obviously not, so again it's because they have a knock on effect as to the credibility of genuinely thought out start-up projects in the eyes of potential investors. It has nothing to do with this being a potentially Dutch-based operation - why on earth would you think that?

[Wingman1000]

Got a bit quiet? Does anybody has some news?

[Barling Magna]

Presumably his A-level project has been handed in.

A-level results are published next week, so good luck to him.

[Expressflight]

You didn't really expect there to be any news did you?