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Capot
16th May 2012, 13:31
I got a billet doux today from the DVLA.

"Here's your nice, new, red CV5, aka a vehicle logbook" it said, more or less. The tone of the note is very upbeat.

It went on to explain that they must replace all the old blue CV5s because of, get this, "the theft of a number of blank, blue CV5s".

I'm indebted to the Dept for Transport for the information that there are 35,000,000 or so registered vehicles. If we estimate that the cost of issuing each new, red CV5 (printing, processing, postage) is about 3.00 (I'm sure the Civil Service cost is actually a much higher figure), that puts the cost of this exercise in the ballpark of of 100,000,000 or so.

So let's have another look at why it's being done. Someone, in the printers or the DVLA, allowed a theft to take place of sufficient old blue CV5s to make a national reissue necessary.

How the hell could this happen? Somehow, I'm betting it was the DVLA that screwed up. Were the CV5s stolen, or were they simply lost through carelessness? Either way, some Civil Service/DVLA Manager's casual incompetence at not keeping these documents securely under lock and key has cost the taxpayer 100,000,000 +++.

And they don't even apologise.

What's the betting that no meaningful enquiry has been carried out, that no heads have rolled, and that the person(s) responsible for this financial catastrophe will swan off into the sunset of early retirement with a fat pension and a sense of grievance that it's not enough, or another Government job and promotion.

The loss is old news of course; back in January the DVLA Chief Executive Noel Shanahan told 5 live: "When we discovered that these documents had been stolen, we actually went to the police because it is a criminal act. "If it's a criminal act then clearly we can't be held responsible for that."

I think that tells you everything you need to know about Mr Shanahan's management suitability. If he leaves his house unlocked with all doors open, and it's burgled, does he deny any responsibility?

The statement actually raises another question; just how long did it take them to discover the loss? And why has it taken until May for the replacement CV5s to be issued?

What a can of worms. Unfortunately this is how all the UK's Government departments, and organisations such as DVLA which live off tax revenues, are now run.

In our next issue; The UK CAA; Home of the Unemployable.

Sprogget
16th May 2012, 13:43
In the art of making a raft of assumptions and allowing them to wind oneself up, that is by far the best rant of the year so far.

Seldomfitforpurpose
16th May 2012, 13:46
Was going to suggest some Yoga or breathing exercises but I suspect it's a little late for that :p

Groundbased
16th May 2012, 13:47
Almost as bad as the "you need to renew your photocard driving licence" scam

Many people will be unaware that these actually expire after 10 years. I've just had to replace mine at a cost of 25 including 5 to the post office for "processing" my application.

At my age you don't change much in 10 years.

Got to keep the people in jobs you know.

Capot
16th May 2012, 13:52
that is by far the best rant of the year so far.

Wow! Thanks!

charliegolf
16th May 2012, 14:06
If we estimate that the cost of issuing each new, red CV5 (printing, processing, postage) is about 3.00 (I'm sure the Civil Service cost is actually a much higher figure),

Using my pc and printer, and a new 60p ish stamp, I reckon I could do one for 60.5 p. Add a day's work for the 'artwork' and bull that they send with it, and 10p to produce it....... Total per unit: 61p. You owe me 2.39 per car.

CG
And it is not even close to the best rant of the year so far.:ok:

And, since I had mine months ago at tax time, I'm guessing that they would have been writing to us all anyhoo, so bunged it in then.

vulcanised
16th May 2012, 14:30
Add in VOSA to the rant.

According to an item on R4 today they are happily leaving it to car manufacturers as to whether or not to recall cars with serious and potentially life-threatening defects that have long been identified.

Cars recalled in US, but not in UK.

MagnusP
16th May 2012, 14:34
vulcanised, that's no doubt because dead people in the UK are cheaper in liability litigation than dead people in the USA. :sad:

rans6andrew
16th May 2012, 15:17
they have been sending out the replacement CV5 sheets for a long, long time, many months between my first car one coming and my second car one coming. As we don't know what order or priority the re-issue has we have no idea whether any particular car we choose to buy should be on the old sheet or the new one. This means that there is no security improvement over all of the time since the theft took place and we don't know when the completion date is.............

The situation is a farce, as usual.

Rans6........

maliyahsdad2
16th May 2012, 15:34
This goes back a long time, as far back as 2006/2007!

STOLEN V5C LOG BOOKS STILL IN CIRCULATION | Motoring News | Honest John (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/legal--motoring-advice/2009-04/stolen-v5c-log-books-still-in-circulation/)

sitigeltfel
16th May 2012, 15:37
DVLA are a bunch of useless twerps. I had to convert to a French driving licence as I no longer have a UK address. The bureaucracy here was not too bad, and when I asked how long it would take to process my application they said it depended on how long it took DVLA to verify and return my old licence. Two months later they still have not sent the response back to the prefecture at Avignon and I will have to apply again to extend my temporary French one. :ugh::*

wiggy
16th May 2012, 16:29
sitigeltfel

I had to convert to a French driving licence as I no longer have a UK address. The bureaucracy here was not too bad,

Don't get me started :mad: from EHICs to S1s to driving licences dealing with the UK offices is a right PITA. As you know one of the few benefits of each Prefecture handling it's own admin is you can go and talk to a functionaire, in person, about your "problem"......bleedin' expensive way of doing it, I'd agree, but it seems to work and you save on postage and phone calls.

OTOH anything that gets sent to the UK seems to end up in a black hole in Swansea/Newcastle/Anytown.......for months on end...

vulcanised
16th May 2012, 16:51
For the benefit of any who have not recently had their cars MOT'd - there's (yet another) new style certificate being issued.

Don't know when t was introduced.

racedo
16th May 2012, 17:59
Don't know when t was introduced.

Long time ago as have had a couple of them.

vulcanised
16th May 2012, 19:57
That's strange! Last year I got an A4 size one but this year it was the landscape oriented A5 (after the non essential bit came off).

ShyTorque
16th May 2012, 22:07
Stolen V5Cs? That's outrageous, what a scandal, cheeky devils.

I'm really glad I forged all mine.

Flap 5
17th May 2012, 07:44
If this was a thread about loss of jobs and / or benefits for the poor because tax payers money had been wasted I don't think the replies would be so flippant. :=

Essentially wasting tax payers money in this way by having to send out new certificates because blank certificates were not kept secure will mean less money is available to create jobs and pay benefits for the needy.

As Capot says there is no apolgy either. In fact the accompanying leaflet is quite threatening. In bold print: "Do not ignore this leaflet, you need to act now". We need to act? I think they need to act. :hmm:

Victor Inox
17th May 2012, 07:47
less money is available to create jobs

Hardly a problem in the UK. Enough jobs to attract EU nationals in large numbers.

maliyahsdad2
17th May 2012, 07:53
If it led to less benefits being paid out then its a good thing!

stuckgear
17th May 2012, 08:05
The loss is old news of course; back in January the DVLA Chief Executive Noel Shanahan told 5 live: "When we discovered that these documents had been stolen, we actually went to the police because it is a criminal act. "If it's a criminal act then clearly we can't be held responsible for that."


well this scandal was brushed under the carpet..


Thousands of blank passports worth 2.5million on the black market were stolen from a van after the driver stopped to buy a chocolate bar, it emerged last night.
Security experts warned the theft of the 3,000 passports and visas, which were destined for British embassies abroad, had handed a 'real coup' to terrorists, illegal immigrants and fraudsters.
The Foreign Office, which was in charge of the delivery, admitted it was the latest in a string of serious security breaches by the Government.
The documents were being transported in a non-armoured white Citroen van from Oldham in Greater Manchester, to London when the thieves struck.
Passports sent within the UK are normally transported in armoured vehicles, with drivers banned from making unauthorised stops.
But the Foreign Office said it had never used armoured vehicles to carry documents intended for foreign destinations as they were inflexible and expensive.

Conservative MP Patrick Mercer, who has advised Gordon Brown on national security, said the best case scenario was that the documents would be used for identity fraud.
But he warned that if they fell into the hands of terrorists and other international criminals, they would yield a host of technological secrets and allow fraudsters to produce their own versions.

Mr Mercer told the Daily Mail: 'We have handed a real coup to the terrorists. They must be laughing themselves silly over this.'
Industry specialist Steve Beecroft said forgers could print the passports for use as proof of identity for banks.
He added: 'From that one document you could literally create your own identity as a foreign national who last month got a British passport.'
Mr Beecroft, a technology consultant who has worked with the Home Office on its proposed ID card scheme, said the stolen documents could be sold to asylum seekers who want to pass themselves off as UK citizens.
Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman, standing in for Gordon Brown, said the robbery was a 'serious crime'.

However, she claimed it did not necessarily show a 'sloppy attitude'. Shadow Home Secretary Dominic Grieve said: 'This latest security failure is all the more shocking, given the Government's inability to learn the lessons from the HMRC fiasco and a string of other government failures to secure confidential documents and personal information.'
A spokesman for the Foreign office said its non-armoured security vans had been used for 15 years 'without incident'.



Hijackers steal blank British passports worth 2.5m as driver stops to buy a chocolate bar | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1039490/Hijackers-steal-blank-British-passports-worth-2-5m-driver-stops-buy-chocolate-bar.html#ixzz1v70NJYGj)

Viola
17th May 2012, 08:39
There's a bit of an assumption that blank official forms were stolen directly from the government departments/agencies.

There's a long supply chain involving several different firms before the forms actually get to the government bodies.

The more links in a chain, the weaker the chain.

Capot
17th May 2012, 11:32
Somehow, I'm betting it was the DVLA that screwed up.

Why? Because all the other parties involved stand to lose a fortune if they screw up.

If the DVLA screws up, we lose the fortune and they get counselling for the stress involved, poor dears, promotion and a pay rise.

McGoonagall
17th May 2012, 12:00
Another facet of the DVLA/VOSA/MID records is that the police take them as gospel. I bought a car from a reputable dealer and part exchanged my old car at the same time. It had a FSH, all the documents and a HPI check. I turned up with insurance arranged and certificate printed off, tax and MOT were supplied with the vehicle.

I got about 70 miles down the road and was stopped by the police as the car flagged up on their system. They asked all the usual questions, disbelieved the insurance until they telephoned and checked. Searched the car asked if they could search me (refused). They finally contacted the dealer who confirmed I had bought the vehicle that morning. It was a couple of hours out of my life that could have been better spent.

It turns out the car had been owned by a chap who was known to them for supplying exotic cheroots and as the DVLA computers had not been updated he was still down as the owner. I asked for the police system to be updated and was assured it would be. It was some months and two further tugs later.

603DX
17th May 2012, 12:30
Being a reasonably fair-minded individual, I think the following experience needs to be set against all of the anti-DVLA guff above.

Once you reach 70, the photocard licence has to be renewed every three years, and a set of searching health questions answered. The documents from DVLA explaining this included a slip inviting me to complete the application procedure online, so I did.

I did the necessary on the Friday their forms arrived, and my new plastic card and accompanying paper licence dropped through my letterbox on the following Tuesday morning. So only two working days, which I think is pretty good! :)

maliyahsdad2
17th May 2012, 13:52
computers don't take weekends and bank holidays off.

Capot
17th May 2012, 13:53
603DX

Yes, well, all very nice, and good for the DVLA.

Until you suddenly realise that it was a totally pointless exercise in self-certification so as to receive a re-issue of the licence you already hold; you probably told the truth, but if your health were dodgy and you wanted the licence anyway you may not have done, and many others certainly would not do.

What, precisely, is proved by simply re-issuing the licence? If you have a licence and are for any reason not fit to use it, it is an offence to use it in any case.

ricardian
17th May 2012, 14:07
Luckily I live on an island and my car never leaves the island - therefore I don't need an MOT!
Bruce Fletcher
Stronsay, Orkney

vulcanised
17th May 2012, 14:23
Luckily I live on an island

So do the rest of us round here.

Storminnorm
17th May 2012, 14:26
And the good folk of Australia do as well.

603DX
17th May 2012, 15:01
Until you suddenly realise that it was a totally pointless exercise in self-certification so as to receive a re-issue of the licence you already hold; you probably told the truth, but if your health were dodgy and you wanted the licence anyway you may not have done, and many others certainly would not do.

What, precisely, is proved by simply re-issuing the licence? If you have a licence and are for any reason not fit to use it, it is an offence to use it in any case.

Not totally pointless, it is a simple fact that medical conditions which may affect one's ability to drive do tend to occur more in those over 70. Putting this questionnaire to honest licence holders in this category as frequently as every three years gives a vital nudge to one's conscience at each such renewal occasion, and enables developing conditions to be declared. Simply allowing existing licence holders to go on indefinitely without doing this is asking for trouble - many people would procrastinate and do nothing over this sort of thing. It also provides the opportunity to update the photocard image if this becomes necessary as time takes its toll ...

For those dishonest mature drivers who choose to lie about their health, they deserve all that may subsequently happen to them in the event of an accident attributable to an undeclared condition. Sadly, this can also affect others, however. If this were a significant problem, the possible remedy of requiring GP's to notify DVLA of their patients' debilitating conditions would be contrary to the long-accepted tenet of patient confidentiality, and would be very difficult to enact.

ricardian
17th May 2012, 16:06
Quote:
Luckily I live on an island
So do the rest of us round here.
But my island's smaller than your island :p

racedo
17th May 2012, 20:36
But my island's smaller than your island :p

And everything else alledgedly:p

hoofie
18th May 2012, 03:36
Luckily there are no MOT's as such in Western Australia. Once you buy your car it never has to over the pits again unless the coppers stop you and decide your death trap needs checked.

At least I don't have to pay a big chunk of cash every 3 years now. The rego however is approx $500 a year .

Capot
18th May 2012, 21:02
603DX

enables developing conditions to be declared.

An honest driver who knows he or she has a condition affecting his/her driving will stop driving or declare it, or both, without the need for a questionnaire. A dishonest one will not declare it, even if he or she gets a questionnaire every 6 months.

A behaviour/attitude change will not be brought about by receiving a form from the DVLA, and having to fill it in and send it back.

Hence my word "pointless".

Effluent Man
19th May 2012, 09:39
DVLA are,in my opinion very close to being a criminal organisation.One of my customers just rang me.He traded his car in during January and sent off the yellow change of owner slip.They just contacted him saying that they have not received it and want a 40 fine PLUS all the back tax,despite the fact it has been on my forecourt.

I had words with them on this and they acknowledge that a small proportion of slips get lost in the post (Or more likely in their office)So I said should they be sent recorded/registered.Oh no they say.I wonder why? Maybe so they can strongarm unsuspecting members of the motoring public into stumping up.

They recently sent me a fine for having an untaxed car on the road.I pointed out it was on trade plates."Don't care" They said "Go f*** yourselves replied EM,see you in court" DVLA scheduled a court case. Three days prior to the hearing a letter arrives "We have decided on this occasion not to pursue the matter" C***s!

air pig
19th May 2012, 11:42
I get a letter from Thames Valley Police, via a car pound that they have got my car, strange as its sat on my drive, ring the impound yard, confirm th identity. Say not my problem I sold over six months ago, do if you want to crush it, carry on. Rang Thames Valley, they said it was still on the database that I was the owner, despite having sent the change of ownership slip back an art exd through a car dealer and have a receipt to prove it. It would appear the new owner hadn't registered it, no tax or insurance, hope I was crushed. DVLA, gang of inefficient thieving cn*ts.

603DX
19th May 2012, 12:24
An honest driver who knows he or she has a condition affecting his/her driving will stop driving or declare it, or both, without the need for a questionnaire. A dishonest one will not declare it, even if he or she gets a questionnaire every 6 months.

A behaviour/attitude change will not be brought about by receiving a form from the DVLA, and having to fill it in and send it back.



capot,

I wish I had your apparent faith in human nature. Even some honest motorists with health issues, if not contacted at all by DVLA, might well carry on regardless and hope for the best. The dishonest ones will obviously deliberately lie, and continue come what may, and there is little that can be done about that. They may also choose to totally ignore the forms, and drive on a licence which has been cancelled after the deadline date has been passed. Such folk would be quite likely to also fail to tax, insure and obtain MOT test certificates for their vehicles. They are moral reprobates, or crooks in other words, beyond redemption.

But hopefully the honest but possibly lazy driver will have their deep seated social conscience given a jolt by having regularly to formally state in writing that they do not have any debilitating condition, in order to recover their cancelled licence. Not a perfect system, granted, but better than none at all with an open-ended licence for life, surely? It is also an offence to knowingly make a false statement on these forms.

ShyTorque
19th May 2012, 13:13
I can understand the (safety) reasoning behind driving licences expiring at the age of 70, but the more recent requirement to renew a photograph on the licence (actually, to pay to renew the whole licence every ten years) is a definite DVLA money making scam.

They claim it's done because the appearance of the holder may change after ten years (so it's actually an ID card in diguise, courtesy of the previous Labour government's desire to make us all carry "Papieren, bitte!"). There is a 1000 fine if the photo isn't renewed!

But unlike on the original application, there is no requirement for the new photograph to be checked, or countersigned as a true likeness of the licence holder. Nor does there appear to be a requirement for it to be a more recent photo than that on the old licence. I just sent in an old photo, probably much older than ten years. It was accepted without question. As long as I'd paid my money to bolster yet another civil service pension, no matter. :rolleyes:

Shiny side down
19th May 2012, 13:38
V5s and driving licences. The cost of this may still only be a fraction of the cost of the yes-we-will,no-we-won't debate on the national identity card.

As for the red V5, one of my vehicles now has 2 new red V5s, and a blue V5. Neither one accurately describes the vehicle, which is a standing issue from the date the car was first introduced to the British market.

DVLA
Department of Various Lies and Aberrations

Doctor Cruces
19th May 2012, 20:36
Capot, you really seem to hate public servants. What's the matter, would they not let you join?

Capot
27th May 2012, 18:53
No, Doctor, it's because the ones I come across out of necessity in my business and private life are, with very few exceptions, lazy, or incompetent, or corrupt, or any combination of those three attributes, grossly overpaid for the work they produce, if any, and have an overdeveloped sense of their worth, often allied to arrogance.

I have never wished to join!

Does that answer the question? I can develop the theme if you wish, but be warned it can get boring.

TZ350
28th May 2012, 11:39
[ quote] Capot
No, Doctor, it's because the ones I come across out of necessity in my business and private life are, with very few exceptions, lazy, or incompetent, or corrupt, or any combination of those three attributes, grossly overpaid for the work they produce, if any, and have an overdeveloped sense of their worth, often allied to arrogance.
I have never wished to join!

Does that answer the question? I can develop the theme if you wish, but be warned it can get boring.

:D:D:D:D

Capot
28th May 2012, 15:41
BTW, my description of public servants applies to desk-operating bureaucrats, not front-line professionals such as firemen, medical staff in the NHS, front-line policemen (well, the honest ones, anyway) and the like.

To put it another way, it's the petty officials and their managers, all the way up the tree to the very top, who are, with very few exceptions, lazy, or incompetent, or corrupt, or any combination of those three attributes, grossly overpaid for the work they produce, if any, and have an overdeveloped sense of their worth, often allied to arrogance.

As they get higher, the problem of "Buggins turn" promotion gets worse. I once wrote to a Minister that if zero-based budgetting were introduced by law in all Local Authorities and Government Departments, the UK's public expenditure would be reduced by 20%. I calculated this by extrapolating from the LA that I had all the figures for, where the saving could have been 30%.

(Readers will probably know that the practice of inventing an annual budget that invariably needs 5% more than last year, without any reference to actual needs, is still sacred to Local and National Government officials, whose only goal in life is to increase their annual budget. Making sure it is all spent, regardless of need, is a Key Performance Indicator in many LAs for Department chiefs.)

The letter was intercepted by a Civil Servant who told me "how interested the Minister would be in the idea". End of correspondence!

acmech1954
28th May 2012, 16:52
To change the licence every 10 years for men is probably reasonable, but for some women I know they should change it every few months, :p.

Doctor Cruces
28th May 2012, 20:05
Capot,

Unfortunately, and it grieves me sorely to say this, I have to agree with you re senior managers. Self centred, self interested jobsworths.

However, the boys and girls who do the work are currently, overworked, underpaid grossly and under appreciated by all and sundry.

It grieves me still more that idiots like you put them all in the same boat. The old adage about it being difficult to soar like eagles when led by weasels applies equally in places other than in the air!

Been there, read the book, seen the film, got the tea shirt and got OUT!!

Don't get you started? Don't get ME started. We could have quite an argument whilst agreeing on certain fundamentals. However, don't ever disrespect the vast army of public servants out there who do a damned fine job for little reward and bugger all appreciation from the likes of you and your ilk.

Oh, and don't think private industry is any better managed. Been there too and seen some right tossers at work!

Kindest regards

Doc C :=

Doctor Cruces
28th May 2012, 20:09
On your side , Capot, one place I worked during my time as a Civil Servant was called "The Family Business" by most other places in the same department because ALL seven of the senior management team were either related by marriage or at least shagging one of the Senior, Senior bosses.

There were far more capable people around but never got a look in.

Doc C