Airservices CEO resigns [Archive]

Kharon

25th May 2012, 02:21

Pages 36 - 48 (PDF) 35 - 44 on the printed version is where the fun starts.

Senate Estmates 23/5/12. (http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/committees/estimate/ac4cc409-1146-463a-8fcb-70fbd6afc70a/toc_pdf/Rural%20and%20Regional%20Affairs%20and%20Transport%20Legisla tion%20Committee_2012_05_23_1098.pdf;fileType=application%2F pdf#search=%22committees/estimate/ac4cc409-1146-463a-8fcb-70fbd6afc70a/0000%22)

Perhaps the Albo flying circus should be rebadged. Some of the finer moments reproduced for your entertainment and general pleasure.

Senator XENOPHON: Mr Mrdak, why did Mr Russell resign as head of Airservices Australia?

Mr Mrdak: I am not aware of the specific reasons. That is a matter between Mr Russell and the board of Airservices Australia.

Senator XENOPHON: Mr Clark, you are the acting CEO. Why did Mr Russell resign as head of Airservices Australia?

Mr Clark: That is really a matter between Mr Russell and the board of Airservices Australia. I am not privy to the reason why he resigned.

Mr Mrdak: I do not think the officers at the table can deal with that matter. They are for Mr Russell and the board. Mr Russell has tendered his resignation to the board and the board has accepted that resignation. They are matters between Mr Russell and the board.

Senator XENOPHON: Were there any communications between the minister and Mr Russell prior to his resignation in respect of his resignation?

Mr Mrdak: Not that I am aware of.
Senator XENOPHON: And what was the purpose of that? Is that part of the conditions of employment for Mr Russell—so he could take his spouse along?

Mr Clark: Typically the reasons were for purposes of spousal events—supporting the chief executive in the organisation at spousal type events associated with CANSO, which is the Civil Air Navigation Services Organisation.

Senator XENOPHON: On notice, can you please provide details of how much Mr Russell's spouse cost taxpayers?
Senator XENOPHON: In 2010-11, the figures I have are that the expenditure is $772.6 million, with staff numbers of 3,886, an increase of 29.7 per cent and 890 extra staff members. Of that 29 per cent increase, what increase was there in air traffic controllers in that time?

Mr Clark: The number of air traffic controllers has increased slightly over that period of time. I can certainly provide more detail on notice.

Senator XENOPHON: Not by 29 per cent, though.

Mr Clark: No. Not by 29 per cent.

Senator XENOPHON: I suggest to you maybe only two or three per cent?
Senator FAWCETT: That is extremely at odds with the vast number of media and other reports about air traffic controllers having to work extended amounts of overtime to make up for shortfalls in the workforce and with some of the discussions about the significant need to ramp up your training numbers. I have seen media releases that you have put out which indicate that you have in fact had a shortfall. I notice, as Senator Xenophon pointed out, your numbers of air traffic controllers have remained basically static over that period. In 2006-07 and 2007-08, what was the level of profit generated by ASA?

Mr Clark: To answer your question, Senator, in relation to profitability around 2007-08, the net profit after income tax—so the impact in 2008—was $92 million. We would typically as an organisation over that period of time from 2007, even up to today in terms of a 2012 forecast, have an EBIT, or earnings before interest and tax, averaging about $100 million per annum.

Well worth an hour or two quiet reading, just for the laughs.

Enjoy.

Jack Ranga

25th May 2012, 04:56

Senator XENOPHON: In 2010-11, the figures I have are that the expenditure is $772.6 million, with staff numbers of 3,886, an increase of 29.7 per cent and 890 extra staff members. Of that 29 per cent increase, what increase was there in air traffic controllers in that time?

890???????

890 and they are barely treading water on the ATC side of things. And ASA's core business is what??????? Thanks Senator X, keep at the ship of fools, there's a lot more to un-cover :ok:

alphacentauri

25th May 2012, 05:44

Senator XENOPHON: On notice, can you please provide details of how much Mr Russell's spouse cost taxpayers?

Um, pretty sure the answer to that question is $0. AsA don't get any funding from the Gov't (taxpayer), AsA pay a dividend to the Gov't on money made.

I understand they are attacking the CEO's expenses. But it shouldn't be from the point of view of how much has it cost the taxpayer, because that is a very misleading point of view. It should come more from the point of view that all airspace users have to pay huge amounts of charges and fees, what level of service provisions do they get back?

Provided the CEO and company are providing a level of safety, service and efficiency that all users enjoy and are happy with, then I think the CEO can justify the wages and expenses. But have a look at the current state of affairs with service provision and navigation infrastructure, and I am sure you won't find many people who get an overwhelming sense of value for money.

Alpha

thorn bird

25th May 2012, 06:43

Do I hear a few "Sheldon" big bang "BAZINGA's!!! in there somewhere??

boree3

25th May 2012, 06:43

890 extra new staff? Really?

Where?

In the Adminisphere! :D

ClearedIGS

25th May 2012, 08:55

Recent decisions by Airservices Australia are proof of the existence of a new chemical element, according to scientists. A major research institution has recently announced the discovery of the heaviest element yet known to science.

The new element has been named ‘Airservitium’. Airservitium (As), has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons, and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons.

Since Airservitium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be detected because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A minute amount of Airservitium can cause a reaction that would normally take less than a second, to actually take over 4 days to complete.

Airservitium has a normal half-life of 4 years; it does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons exchange places. In fact Airservitium mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes.

This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to believe that Airservitium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration! This hypothetical quantity is referred to as Critical Morass.

When catalyzed with money, Airservitium becomes Administratium, an element which radiates just as much energy as Airservitium since it has half the number of peons but twice as many morons.

thorn bird

25th May 2012, 12:07

IGS pure gold:D:D:D.
Now what's the element for CAA (CASA)?? it defies all
theories of Physics.

Hempy

25th May 2012, 13:54

Senator XENOPHON: On notice, can you please provide details of how much Mr Russell's spouse cost taxpayers? Um, pretty sure the answer to that question is $0. AsA don't get any funding from the Gov't (taxpayer), AsA pay a dividend to the Gov't on money made.

I understand they are attacking the CEO's expenses. But it shouldn't be from the point of view of how much has it cost the taxpayer, because that is a very misleading point of view. It should come more from the point of view that all airspace users have to pay huge amounts of charges and fees, what level of service provisions do they get back?

With all due respect that is a bit of a stickman argument. Surely it depends on your definition of 'taxpayer'? I'm pretty sure the traveling public or anyone who wants to send something somewhere and pay fees without knowing it count as taxpayers too.

Ex FSO GRIFFO

25th May 2012, 15:01

Re "Aviation is beng crushed and squeezed between Air Services, CASA and the corporate leeches that 'own' what is rightfully public infrastructure - our nations airports."

S P O T O N Ramble!!!

And, VERY GOOD IGS.......Earns a PHD in 'TFNistry' et al......

Cheers:ok:

Amygdala1

25th May 2012, 22:20

and of course the single shareholder of Airservices is 'The Commonwealth'; me, you us - the TAXPAYER.

Good to see some accountability - finally for the outrages. Look deep because they are beyond financial.

Kharon

25th May 2012, 22:23

Mayhap the real reason for the Thompson ruck is that the opposition have realised there is bloke who can (and apparently did) actually find a cat in a cathouse without the aid of a seeing eye dog.

It all started one sunny day at the opposition executive trough, after morning tea, (between first and second breakfast); one of the brighter piglets (BP) piped up "You know, if we ever have a major air accident it will bring down the government"; "Yeah, how so" was the languid response from the group sun bed.

"Well" says BP, "of course the whole air transport gig is a complete shambles; the expected ineptitude, incompetence, ignorance and corruption levels are all pretty stable, at the normal levels; but, profiteering and spin levels are very high and have reached a point where the public can actually identify them using standard pony pooh detection equipment".

"Good Oh, let us know if anything changes" came the dreamy response from the sun bed, and the party continued as scheduled.

And so, things continued at the usual glacial pace, the trough parties were occasionally interrupted by unpleasant things which required the occasional plump cheek to raised, although in fairness, it must be said this was mostly to break wind in the general direction of the next door farm yard.

Then, the fell day arrived, just as every one was settling down for second breakfast, BP got a message on his Blackberry. "Flee, all is lost, next door have found a competent and they will make him the Minister for the "Flying Pig Circus".

Well of course children the very idea of a "competent" in charge was abhorrent, there was even a wild rumour that two of the top weights even stood up and moved a little to the right, but that was never confirmed.

"This must not be allowed to happen" said the languid one, "see to it BP". Well children, the rest of the story is available, between advertisements on your favourite TV channel.

Stop press : There is actual anxiety being detected, BP has invented a scenario in which a junior pilot of a large jet has been misdirected by a fatigued air traffic controller with a weak bladder and flown into a second large jet. The fall out (pardon the pun) is heading for the troughs and there are grave concerns that the public, the coroners and the courts may see through the ever thinning veil of pony pooh, carbon smoke and truth distorting mirrors.

Yes GP – It's all bollocks, but Hansard for 23/5/2012 does have the makings of a great story for some bright journalist.

gobbledock

26th May 2012, 00:52

Well done Kharon well done. You get bonus points for incorporating pony pooh, Craig Thomson, troughs, pigs and circus!
It's a pity your potential Hamlet play mimics what will actually occur someday in our skies or on the ground. No amount of spin or bureaucratic pony pooh will be able to patch over a giant smoking crater filled with fragmented pieces of flight crew, adults and children.

Senators, you have come this far now finish it off. Deal the death blow.
You are so close that we can smell the ink on their resgination letters and hear the $kaching$ of generous superannuation packages being cashed out!

P.S I believe grip pipe will have his work cut out for him in next weeks installment of his very popular oz aviation thread :E
And grip pipe, if you are reading this, please please please may you incorporate a pig/trough statement in your next installment?

ayenonymous

26th May 2012, 01:09

Will be interesting to see how long the 'top to bottom' review of Air Services will take CASA. No doubt that the results, if it is conducted as thoroughly as they claim, will cause more heads to roll.

How often are the senate estimate hearings held? Do the public ever get to see the responses to the questions taken on notice?

thorn bird

26th May 2012, 05:38

err...why dont we just use Kiwi reg's?
Save us a lot of money, and they work.

Baileys

26th May 2012, 06:28

CASA Review? - surely a big bunch of expensive, independent Management Consultants would give the desired report - everything is AOK baby. At least ASA Canberra is doing their bit to keep national employment steady - just check out the current vacancies - some of those Management positions being created are crackers.

Jack Ranga

26th May 2012, 09:59

Does not the 840 odd extra positions but not 1 extra ATC ring alarm bells in anybody's mind? The ATC numbers have been desperately short for 5 years or so, they were warned, but, oh no, we can't have the association pointing out our deficiencies.

This administration has been nothing short of disastrous. And to have that imbecile at CASA try and normalise the BOS issue is yet more public service bullsh!t. They were warned about that too, the selection criteria controlled by HR, some of them having never stepped foot in a centre or tower.

Tell me why any CEO with any credibility, honesty or integrity resigns a couple of days before Nick gets to question him in the Senate?

ferris

26th May 2012, 10:25

Why does resigning absolve you of what you have done?

tontinewarrior

26th May 2012, 10:31

ATSB has had to be alerted to incidences of BOS.
The Air Traffic Management division now has an open reporting culture less than North Korea. Even the greater organisation of ASA has scant idea of the scope of ongoing cover-ups.
The GM has made it known since he joined as a trainee controller that his goal was to be running the place as quickly as possible. To have great ambition is admirable and to be respected. The path chosen to get there is the issue. To attempt to subvert, deny and cover up very real problems is indicative of a culture that comes from the top.
TFN was still justifying his stuff-ups on inherited problems 5 years into the job. The panacea to his and JHs ills, and to prolong the Emperors new clothes, was to bring out 5 year plans, visions, values, invigorating management restructures, staff engagement surveys, etc. TFN quickly got out of his depth.
A lot of sunlight is needed to return ASA to a safety based service. Australia, especially aviation, needs another 20 Xenophons.

gobbledock

26th May 2012, 10:35

Good point Jack, anybody earning 800k per year should have the testicular fortitude to answer a few 'incoming questions' from the Senators. Instead he opted for career suicide rather than face his jury.

As for CASA's (CAA) 'top to bottom audit' of ASA, what a crock of ****e that it is 'cooncidental' with the illustrious leader departing and all the other issues taking place. Albo knew a **** sandwich was coming c/o the senators and he has taken a preemptive strike of course.

Perhaps the good Senators could ask the following of the Skull - If safety oversight is such a priority then why does CAA spend endless amounts of time and money chasing Butsons and Joneses yet can't even audit ASA, an integral safety element within aviation? 5 years!!!
This proves the absolute top layer of CAA has no in-depth understanding of safety and risk, no idea at all. They have wasted all this time chasing chopper pilots, bullying industry, wasting taxpayer money on international sojourns and producing glossy brochures containing nothing more than bureaucratic spin lingo. They chase two cent operators with personal vengeance while ASA remains short staffed and near misses increase by the month. And these clowns understand risk??? It appears glaringly not!
As for the pathetic Board at CAA throughout all of this they and the ASA Board should be disposed of with with gusto, they are the key drivers in all this mess of course along with the upper echelon of management in both organizations.

Then we get to final part of the jigsaw - The Minister. Isn't he doing a stellar job in all of this? Safety has plummeted and risk has skyrocketed under his direct leadership. His Generals are actually none star Generals and couldn't lead a handful of troops successfully through a garden hose water fight. It is a disgrace.

So, if and I say if the Libs are pulling some chains in all of this I hope they now know what they are inheriting when they win the next election. Us in the industry already know it but the rest of Australian are just waking up to the fact that we have a completely dysfunctional unsafe aviation environment being fueled by inept management of a number of aviation stakeholders.
CAA needs to be gutted, it's bowels turned inside out and have a structured, accountable, intelligent workable regulatory oversight organization introduced. Get rid of the bureaucrats, spin doctors, thesis dribbling buffoons and bring in some savvy, smart younger safety and aviation knowledgeable leaders to start us again from scratch. If you look hard enough they are out there.

It is well and truly time to piss of the litany of pensioners, has-beens, lawyers and bureaucratics that are sending our aviation industry deeper into the dark pit it is currently buried in.

Kharon

26th May 2012, 20:30

Although hypocrisy has been called "the tribute that vice pays to virtue", and a bit of it certainly greases the wheels of social exchange, it may also corrode the well-being of those people who continually make or are forced to make use of it.

Senator XENOPHON: Could I just go to the issue of organisations? You have a role to play—CASA plays a pivotal role—in terms of regulating airlines in this country, particularly those with an air operating certificate and high-capacity passenger aircraft. Do you take a similar approach to the way you would regulate or oversee Airservices Australia, given their pivotal role in terms of safety in the skies?

Mr McCormick: Yes; very much so. We conduct routine surveillance and audits of Airservices, particularly their certificate under CASR Part 172. At the moment we are conducting a top-to-bottom review of Airservices. We have started by interviewing the previous CEO. So we are starting at the top of the chain.

Senator XENOPHON: If I were to put to you that an Australian airline had a massive turnover of senior management over a relatively short period, would that trigger any alarm bells or any inquiries on the part of CASA in terms of the management of that airline, in the way it does its business?

Mr McCormick: They are issues very germane through various parts of the Civil Aviation Act that refer, particularly section 28. It was proven in the past with airlines when this happens—we invariably contact them straight away and we also say, 'You will have to give us the detailed plan of how you are doing this.' As all these airline operators do have a safety management system, we expect to see the outcome of their safety management system after they put their proposed changes through that process.
Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. ~Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland.

Sunfish

26th May 2012, 21:21

Too little much too late.

Three smoking holes and a Royal Commission to come.

Kharon

26th May 2012, 22:42

Sunny - Three smoking holes and a Royal Commission to come.

Aram shoo Doostam – the big dogs can see the rabbits and smell ministerial blood. Patience and information will keep their interest; the press will eventually wake up that there is a 100 million dollar levy on everyone's airfare, including the first and business class government travel ones the tax payers in cattle class contribute to.

Nice work if you can get it.

max1

27th May 2012, 03:37

I'll bet London to a brick that the 'top to bottom' review gets nowhere near line controllers in a setting where they can voice concerns without fear.

Baileys

27th May 2012, 05:39

Max1 - I second your bet but that doesn't stop controllers getting closer to them with all the information that they might need. You can do that anonymously or otherwise. If you want to make a difference sometimes you have to take the first few steps. This might be one of the few times that the line controller's might actually make a difference if you are willing to get in there and fight for what's right. Those above will try with all their might to stop it but many, many voices cannot be all stopped.

Get in the ring - now's the chance.

Kharon

27th May 2012, 05:46

The copy I have of Hansard for the Estimates 23/5/2012, (http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/committees/estimate/ac4cc409-1146-463a-8fcb-70fbd6afc70a/toc_pdf/Rural%20and%20Regional%20Affairs%20and%20Transport%20Legisla tion%20Committee_2012_05_23_1098.pdf;fileType=application%2F pdf#search=%22committees/estimate/ac4cc409-1146-463a-8fcb-70fbd6afc70a/0000%22)cannot be accurate, if it is then we are very deep in the mire. When you start to join up the dots, as the Senators seem to be doing there is an ugly picture emerging.

Pages 31 –38 (PDF) Department of Infrastructure and Transport. Simply confirms that "Yes Minister" is a 'Willyleaks' direct internal video feed. No longer funny but a matter of grave concern; to all and that includes the 'big end' of money town.

Pages 38 – 42 (PDF) - Air Services Australia: Simply serves to confirm all fears that despite the rhetoric, a clerical empire has been built and will be 'sacked' as needed to produce 'efficiencies' when required, simply unload a thousand or so 'clerks' and shine. Yes Minister, we can shed 400 jobs next year and still maintain our efficiency. Refer Clark page 41 (PDF).

Pages 44 – 48 (PDF) - Air Services Australia: It further demonstrates that the galley slaves entrusted with separating the ever increasing numbers of aircraft are only being replaced after death by half trained replacement parts. The object, to maximise the profit; the industry will have passed on the 100 million dollar cost to the punters, probably at a profit. So Joe Public pays a hidden premium price and is cynically fed into a system which is under manned, over worked and only functions on the dedication and professionalism of the galley slaves.

Pages 48 – 57 (PDF) Civil Aviation Safety Authority : The casual observer may be forgiven for assuming this was a routine Q&A from the Senators; our hero deftly foiling the awkward tricky barbs of the unwashed, unshriven uneducated mentally challenged masses. This is not a safe proposition. Our hero has been weighed, measured and found wanting by folks who actually do not believe a word of it; any of it, at all, at all. Selah.

Pages 57 - Australian Transport Safety Bureau : "Is this a dagger I see before me". The dots are being joined here again. Fawcett does it brilliantly with a question that offered a sporting chance of probity (Bravo). The question is posed with multiple options allowing a graceful exit for a honest man (refer page 58). Lamb to the slaughter, this is the thin edge of the wedge; the ATSB has become a glove puppet to the Ministers whims and it seems they intend to prove it. Bad Tiger bad; look at the pretty Orange Super Star

The whole shooting match is a disgusting tale which can only become more interesting as the thieves fall out and the blame game starts.

Is there enough in this Estimates to reasonably call for the resignation of the Minister; Oh I believe so.

ferris

27th May 2012, 12:33

They are getting closer to asking the right questions. Mr Harfield's 'economy with the truth' might bite him on the arse, one day. Perhaps in the very near future?
eg. Fawcett:...Would it be accurate to say that during the period you are describing, from 2006-08 to the present, you have struggled to maintain your mature workforce in terms of air traffic controllers?
Harfield:.....But, overall for the national workforce, we have always been above the mature level.
Fawcett: That is extremely at odds with the vast number of media and other reports about air traffic controllers having to work extended amounts of overtime to make up for shortfalls in the workforce and with some of the discussions about the significant need to ramp up your training numbers....
Harfield: .....Before that, I need to correct the record, Senator. The average amount of overtime experienced by air traffic controllers is one shift per month. That is on average. Therefore, they are doing seven to eight hours per month on average across the workforce of 950 operational air traffic controllers.....

I'd be interested to hear what those currently working there have to say about that?
Also, it is apparent why they don't want TIBA at all cost. TIBA is quantifiable. The amount of TIBA is reportable to senators, and is a clear indication that staff numbers ARE NOT all hunky-dory. They point down the road of the inference in some of the questions: That executives make more money when the organisation makes more money i.e. that safety IS NOT the primary focus of executives, or their decisions (over issues such as staffing). When they simply 'flow restrict' a volume of airspace- achieving the same thing as a TIBA but with out any paper trail- it has the same result; the airlines are shafted, the workers are flogged harder (in fewer numbers), the AsA bottom line looks good, the execs get their bonuses, and the good senators are none the wiser. Maybe. ;)

ER_BN

27th May 2012, 19:50

Sunfish,

I am assuming three smoking holes and a Royal Commssion you mean AsA, CASA and ATSB....

Well me thinks AsA is pretty close...

We are already seeing the realization in ATSB and CASA that they have to do something about AsA but because they really have no idea what is going on, what to look for and even iif they did how to fix it they will essentially be dragged into the quicksand as well..

Would not miss it for quids...

I believe June 3 is when the current Chair of AsA departs...

Wonder what he must be thinking....as every time I have spoke to him the very basis for AsA to exist seemed to elude him...

Poor old Angus H must already be wondering how he lucked out so badly when he assumes the position on ?June 4....

as he looks at the three top levels of current AsA management and realizes probably only one or two have any credibility left...or deserve to polish his shoes...let alone lead youth into harm's way...

But this business he has taken in "retirement" is in some ways a bit more complicated than defending the country...as it is the "enemy" within that he has to deal with...

Starting with the AsA board and moving down...

Let Act 1, Scene 2 commence...

Oh, and Angus could get rid of the 3 top levels of management and AsA would still function just fine...in fact probably heaps better because the morale would be far better than its been for almost a decade!!

Sunfish

27th May 2012, 20:07

When I say Three smoking holes I'm sorry to say I mean airframes.

The first accident will be explained away as a statistical blip.

The Second will be explained away as pure coincidence.

If either of the accidents involves a foreign airline, it will be blamed on their shoddy regulatory environment, "non english speaking crew", etc. etc xenophobia will do the rest.

It will take the third hull loss before the average voter wakes up and demands action.

ER_BN

27th May 2012, 20:18

Sunfish,

My apologies on my incorrect assumptions....

From my point of view observing AsA from very very close quarters, they have already had enough "near misses" for the public to act...it is just they do not have the information in front of them yet...despite the best efforts of the senate and certain journalists...

Never been called an optimist before but I still think the times they are a changing...Before lives are lost...

Kharon

27th May 2012, 21:48

Found this in a brown envelope pushed under the door this AM; CC TV showed only a tall dark, wild eyed figure in a pointed hat, giggling and cackling insanely, doing 30 knots toward the rising sun.

ASA - Fact or fiction ?. (http://youtu.be/X2CYVnzgbK4)

Can anyone assist with identification. :D

sunnySA

28th May 2012, 11:29

Does this mean that someone who represented CASA at the recent Senates estimates will be representing ASA at the next Senates estimates?

ER_BN

28th May 2012, 11:50

Sunny,

Yep, heard the rumours about a CASA manager too...but not the chief front man....however, I am pretty sure that s not who direct.no.speed is talking about.

d.n.s. I take it you mean an internal selection???

gobbledock

28th May 2012, 12:17

Well no disrespect intended towards Angus but as predicted the government bring in an experienced spin doctor to run the place.
Sorry fella's, I can't muster up any faith or exultation in this decision.
People like Angus don't rise to the top by being great on the shooting range and always keeping their shoes shining. They get to the top of the Forces by knowing how to play the game well, sliding over others, being strategic yes men and developing a knack for bureaucratic spin mastery. The art of smoke and mirrors is their forte. So for this guy to be the 'chosen one' means he knows how to polish the turd to make the Minister look nice and shiny. So put away the party hats and balloons, no cause for celebration yet.

Now I'm hearing that Herr Skull may also be leaving the building prior to his contract ending. But the bad thing is that rumor has it the 'Richard Dreyfuss lookalike' will get to sit in the angry mans chair. This is far from good. We need anaviation expert in the left hand seat at Fort Fumble, not somebody who demands a stat dec and a thesis be written just to order a handful of pens.

ER_BN

28th May 2012, 20:08

Gobbledock,

I don't see and hear champagne corks popping in AsA....

Things could and will get a lot worse before they get better...

What with the "top to bottom" review by CASA, no workface controller ever expects CASA to get to the bottom so they can find out all the bullsh&$ told to Xenophon etc..

The fear papable in the vacuum of the moment is, that wiith a certain internal CEO appointee, morale would apparently tip right over the edge...

blackhand

28th May 2012, 21:18

Kharon

28th May 2012, 21:52

One way to effectively change this situation is to get it all out there, in public. Once the Pollies are made aware and then fail to act, the next incident can be sheeted directly home to them, not individuals. Imagine the headlines –

Government failed to act despite repeated, expert industry warnings.

Tax payers short changed to provide sumptuous lunches and spousal travel while air traffic safety hits new lows.

Remove any shadow of spin doubt that there exists an increased risk factor to air safety and that you made certain that the politicians were aware of it before hand. There are many options available here and I'm sure that within the ranks of the ASA there are a couple of folks who could knock out a ministerial briefing including:-

Report: a no confidence motion in the CASA to conduct, within a reasonable time frame any sort of no nonsense, spin free meaningful audit.

Report: a no confidence motion in the ATSB to produce an independent report, not a cut a paste refection of the CASA nonsense.

Report: to the travelling public detailing how they are ripped off to produce an additional 100 million dollars profit. The financial aspects of this alone are worth a front page story; seriously disgusting when you remember that the tax payer provides all of these monies, then pays again to provide a huge profit after bonuses and roughts. .

Report: to the public detailing how an additional 1000 clerical staff are simply cannon fodder to assist in producing the required 'efficiencies' when the boom is lowered.

Report: detailing the piss poor training standards for the trickle of new ATC staff partially trained on simulators that don't work and reliant on 'tick a box' self study modules.

Report: the measurable lack of in flight protection due to shortages of qualified, experienced coal face troops.

Report the deep fatigue levels of the operational staff, which combined with fear, backstabbing, bullying and general worry creates serious, tangible safety related issues.

It may achieve sweet Fanny Adams but, if the unthinkable happens, or the unthinkable continues to nearly happen, then at least with a clear conscience you can say – we warned you.

Further more children, you can sleep at night in the full knowledge that 'he who must not be named' is out there, fighting to protect the whistle blowers, it's his new mission in life. Yes?.

GD -Now I'm hearing that Herr Skull may also be leaving the building prior to his contract ending. But the bad thing is that rumour has it the 'Richard Dreyfuss look-alike' will get to sit in the angry mans chair.

Mate – not even the Ring Master could be that dumb, that Patza is a proven operational disaster area, just look at the track record in WA and remember; the Golden West boys are all over East now, clinging to their places on the slippery pole. Anyone who cares about aviation in this country must not allow the GW mob to gain power. Perhaps the Butson ruling will change things – I hope so.

Jabawocky

28th May 2012, 23:50

Should I put an application in?

Strengths;
Not been polluted by government.
Successfully run business for last, too bloody long.....
Has some idea about how to provide a service
Has some idea on how aviation works
Doesn't take **** from airline CEO's like AJ
Gets **** done rather than consult and meet and forget what it was we were doing
Hates spending money on **** that is not needed, loves spending on what is actually needed.

Weaknesses;
Tells it how it is, not always diplomatic.
Does not suffer fools lightly, and offers career alternatives to those who are not up to the task.
Dislike for lawyers and accountants who do nothing but build empires they run thinking that is the business we are in. Most likely to sack them.

I have no need for lavish expenses bills on entertaining the three major customers and three minor customers. About $5K a year would do that.

When do I start?

:)

ER_BN

29th May 2012, 00:15

Jaba,

In a sane universe you would be a shoe in...

But in Oz at the moment your strengths are weaknesses and your weaknesses are "weaknesses".....

Sigh

Jack Ranga

29th May 2012, 11:25

Surely the rumour isn't Steph???

Jaba, you are too good for the joint :E

Ex FSO GRIFFO

29th May 2012, 11:55

Sorry Jab,

You wouldn't last beyond next Thursday mate....too many entrenched 'obstacles' and attitudes.....
Have seen it from the inside - albeit in another 'life' and now 'some time ago'....
Too many 'in de middle' managers protecting their own turf and perks....

Was a great 'delight' when one of our 'local' managers who did absolutely NOTHING for his troops, went the way of the dodo.....

Didn't change much of the 'overall' picture though!

Cheers:ok::ok:

Kharon

29th May 2012, 21:22

This movie has a lot to answer for Shirley.
Oldie but a goodie.

Up-into-the-air

29th May 2012, 21:22

Ferris's quote is spot on:

Why does resigning absolve you of what you have done? The resignation letter is used in many government organisations as a way of "absolving" all the sins.

This is not so - take a close look at the Craig Thompson affair. CT is being now placed in a situation to answer for his "adduced" sins by Fair Work Australia, albeit, taking three years to investigate. A precedent and a "shiver in the boots" of all those non-compliant CEO's.

In the big world, ASIC frown upon the miscreant Director and there are substantial penalties attached.

Big salary - Big penalty when you get it wrong.

This may just explain why there are large and viscous legal departments in casa - Have not looked at ASA yet!!

virginexcess

30th May 2012, 00:18

People like Angus don't rise to the top by being great on the shooting range and always keeping their shoes shining. They get to the top of the Forces by knowing how to play the game well, sliding over others, being strategic yes men and developing a knack for bureaucratic spin mastery.

With all due respect to you Gobbledock, people like Angus do rise to the top without doing all of the above.

If you recall the children overboard affair, Angus was DCDF and acting CDF while the Admiral was on leave. As soon as he took over the acting role he stood up and publicly backed the Navy against the government. In effect he stood up and said the military do not lie, the government is spinning this story. He took on Howard and not only did he win that battle, he was promoted and became the longest serving CDF in memory.

Angus is exactly the calibre of person needed in these sorts of bureaucratic jobs. Having said that, i doubt that even he can overcome the entrenched bureaucracy and @rse covering found in ASA and CASA.

C-change

30th May 2012, 11:55

Poor Angus,

As CDF, he only had 300 RAAF controllers to worry about.

Now look what has has to deal with !

Good luck.

gobbledock

30th May 2012, 12:12

Blackhand, you are waisting your time trying to bait me, I'm not interested.

Virginexcess, on a deadly serious note I am more than happy to be proved wrong. The 'core' people at ASA deserve far better than what they have been copping. The woeful mess and the stressful conditions being pounded on top of an already stressful job by management Nimrods is disgraceful, unethical and downright dangerous. If Angus does a beaut job and turns the organization around then nothing would be more pleasing.
But, and there is always a but, I recall Cosgrove being 'da man', Mr Fantastic and look what he has done at QF?? A man for the people? A trooper? Loyal to the troops, to the frontline people? hmmmmm.

Kharon

30th May 2012, 20:45

Cropped this from another thread; the writer certainly knows how the world wags. Whilst I reserve the right to occasionally (but respectfully) disagree, this time the nail has been well and truly hit on it's head. Scary stuff.

Creampuff.
The last thing either side of politics wants to do is intervene and take control of anything, because then the spotlight of responsibility would move from the fall-guy bureaucrats to the politicians.

First and foremost, whichever side is in government, they both rely on the same bureaucrats to keep the heat off the government.

Who is that most downunda pruners blame for every aviation ill? CASA. And that suits both sides of politics very nicely, thank you very much. From governments’ perspective, CASA is doing a splendid job, notwithstanding that CASA actually achieves almost nothing of substance.

The second, more insidious, issue is that there are very few people left in politics who actually know anything about anything of substance. You now have a generation of politicians whose life experience prior to being elected comprised mainly of working as a staffer for a politician. (That’s why Peter Costello felt entitled to ‘take back’ ‘his’ seat from his staffer to whom the Liberals ‘gifted’ the seat.) Those politicians have also surrounded themselves with staffers who’ve never actually achieved anything other than going to Uni and joining a political party.
The thing seems to work like a shunt bus, lots of circuit breakers before the main event gets shorted, think of Christmas tree lights. Incoming Angus has a hell of a job to do; if the Minister and the mandarins are chuffed to bits with the current AsA the 100 million profit and very nicely insulated (thank you) against the remote chance of repercussions, the title Mission Impossible springs to mind.

The troops will cooperate and morale may improve but if the thing is rotten at the very top and he is relying on the middle levels for a solid footing the chances for real and meaningful change appear limited.

I would wish Angus or whoever accepts the position well, but standing alone as piggy in the middle, he may not be able to answer a pagans prayer.

blackhand

30th May 2012, 23:39

I recall Cosgrove being 'da man', Mr Fantastic and look what he has done at QF?? A man for the people? A trooper? Loyal to the troops, to the frontline people? hmmmmm. Mmmm so neither Angus nor Cosgrove were any good at their jobs?
You know as much about the defence force as you know about Senate Estimate Committees or running an Aviation business

gobbledock

31st May 2012, 11:34

Ok Blacky, I will give in just a little, but then it is back to the jungle for you fixing those postie bikes ok?
I don't recall saying that Angus or Cosgrove didn't do a good job in their previous roles in Defence. I think you are high on two stroke fumes.
I said that in their previous roles they rose to the top by playing the political game, and their is a measure of spin, BS and ass licking in those roles, I know what I know without having to explain that to you.
As for senate estimates and other assorted senate activities again I have more of an inside working understanding than you could ever imagine, but again I am not obligated to explain that to you.

Now you be on your way to some remote atoll where perhaps a float plane or even an 8 foot tinnie with a 15 horse power Johnstone motor needs repairing. Just follow the planes chemtrails and you will find it!

C-change

31st May 2012, 11:44

One thing that Angus did whilst he was CDF in 2010 that impressed me, was to take time out of his busy day to ring one of his controllers, who only had a few weeks to live and thank him for his years of service and effort. They had a lengthy chat about all kinds of things. :ok:

Not many CEO's / company chiefs would bother to do that.

blackhand

1st Jun 2012, 00:26

I said that in their previous roles they rose to the top by playing the political game, and their is a measure of spin, BS and ass licking in those roles,

Yea sure, carrying a rifle and leading men in the jungle sure teaches you how to lick ass and to BS.

Kharon

1st Jun 2012, 00:58

Trolls are there to get a rise out of people. They’re not polite and not ashamed getting in a zinger. They call names and make accusations and rarely do they sound anything but angry.

Trolls rarely add anything of value to the conversation. When trolls respond to a community discussion, they don’t add anything meaningful to the discussion. Instead, they joke, berate, and insult.

Guys - Don't feed the Troll.

blackhand

1st Jun 2012, 01:11

MMm so a troll is anyone who disagrees with Kharon and his doppleganger.
Mi les pinis

Jack Ranga

1st Jun 2012, 07:39

Alright, I'm going to repeat: There were 840 odd new jobs created at ASA over a couple of years. Over those years ATC numbers have remained static (at best). It has been identified that we have a serious problem with ATC numbers yet the esteemed 'Learning Academy' was allowed to conduct a social experiment on the basis of 'Anybody can do ATC.' Mind you, this coming from somebody who'd NEVER done ATC, NEVER worked in the industry prior BUT was obviously a 'yes man.'

In the background we have another little empire building in Canberra. People and Change........People and Change, what a nice little feel good title that is (I digress). These people implement the 'black list,' Australian controllers that left for an overseas experience (yes, some of them shat in their nest by mouthing off before leaving). Some of them wont be re-employed no matter how desperate we are. Along with their black list are controllers who may have left because the job demands were getting to them (shiftwork). A period outside, they decide it wasn't so bad and want to come back. Jump in line brother because you are about to go through the whole process again. We can't have people who aren't the 'right fit' even if they are technically proficient. Doesn't matter that some fool who hasn't ever been an ATC is judging the 'right fit' (message for P&C, we managed for many, many years without the likes of you making the decision, but, I digress, this is not about ATC, this is about empires)

So, lets recap:

1. ASA's core business is AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL. Our CEO fronts some sham organisation and tells them 'We aren't ATC's, we're Air Traffic Enablers.' Can you believe that? Do you wonder why, with that previous statement there's an inquiry being conducted into the rate and type of BOS's that are occuring? No, TFN, we're Air Traffic Controllers, if we can enable, we will, if we can't it's for a pretty good reason.

2. There is a known problem with ATC numbers.

3. Yet the organisation swells by 840 people but none of them are ATC's. My point: Priorities????

4. There is a 'hate cell' in Canberra. ATC's are the enemy, it doesn't matter that this is our CORE BUSINESS. The more empires that TFN builds that fill out the sham staff survey and praise him the more it cushions his arse.

5. The 'manager' of the 'Learning Academy' was caught out several times slagging ATC's. It doesn't matter that she's never put on a headset, made the decisions (sometimes wrong), lived by the decisions, done the medicals or have her performance scrutinised the way we are. Every single word we say is recorded. I wonder how some of her statements/conversations would reflect on the organisation if they were ever to be known.

6. A CEO that hasn't got the balls to front the senate and explain the above, nup, runs off early with a nice little package, bank the bonus before it all turns to sh!t. :D

blackhand

1st Jun 2012, 07:50

Thanks for that Jack. Finally someone from the organisation in question.
I was interested what your CEO said about the numbers at the coal face.
Seemed to me to be a disconnect between my perception of increased aircraft movements and his intimation that there was no increase in workload.

Hopefully the empire building will be stopped, but I doubt that an Estimates hearing, which is to do with the Appropriation Bills, will do this.

Jack Ranga

1st Jun 2012, 08:07

Blackhand, the number of movements have increased fairly steadily for the last 10 years, they have exploded in some areas (W.A. etc). Now some will tell you how much traffic the US moves, yes, they move an extroadinary amount of traffic BUT THEY DON'T HAVE SECTORS THE SIZE WE DO!

We move more and more traffic every day with the same amount of controllers, we are amongst the most efficient in the world when it comes to movements verse staff members. You will get no thanks from ASA for what you do.

We have a refurb of 'empire central' in Canberra where our participants are invited to choose their favourite chair! I can show you photos of chairs in the centre that haven't been replaced for 10 years with the fabric worn through where your legs rest on it. I'd say 30-40% of the seat backs are broken or defective. BUT, let's make sure the haters in Canberra are sorted.

hoboe

1st Jun 2012, 21:14

Ranga, you are have hit the nail on the head. Here's part of a post of mine on another thread only last week, including part of the transcript of the Senate estimates hearings.

Senator XENOPHON: I go to the issue of Airservices Australia's expense of staff numbers since you took over the CFO role. You have been CFO since when—2006-07?
Mr Clark: Correct.
Senator XENOPHON: Back then, the expenditure was in the order of $575 million, with staff numbers of 2,996. Is that about right?
Mr Clark: Broadly, Senator, yes.
Senator XENOPHON: In 2010-11, the figures I have are that the expenditure is $772.6 million, with staff numbers of 3,886, an increase of 29.7 per cent and 890 extra staff members. Of that 29 per cent increase, what increase was there in air traffic controllers in that time?
Mr Clark: The number of air traffic controllers has increased slightly over that period of time. I can certainly provide more detail on notice.
Senator XENOPHON: Not by 29 per cent, though.
Mr Clark: No. Not by 29 per cent.
Senator XENOPHON: I suggest to you maybe only two or three per cent?

I remember in 2006 and prior, Id be lucky to do three ED's a year. Now I get called every second or third cycle for an AD, including on rec leave (last week)! In that time, the organisation has grown by 900 people, yet the annual reports show that controllers numbers have essentially stayed the same...

Can someone remind me, what our core function is again?...

...Cheers

Hoboe

P.S.: A bit of thread drift but you know what else really pi$$e$ me off - when they boast in Azimuth about the new AWB refurbishment and how staff are encouraged to come down to their mockup (for want of a better word) to, amongst other things, select their preferred design of chair for their workstation! Have you seen the sad excuse for controller chairs in Brisbane Centre, and I'm sure its the same in Melbourne, and Towers around the country.

And for those asking, I sent an email to an ALM in 2009, (yes I've kept it), outlining my concern for the quality of chairs in our aisle in Brisbane Centre, and the response was - wait for it - don't hold your breath - NOTHING!. Did not even bother to acknowledge my request verbally, let alone respond to my email, guess there was more important things like the imminent deployment of FPCF... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Decode for those unfamiliar:

ED - Emergency duty i.e. controllers called in to fill a hole at short notice

AD - Additional duty - essentially the renaming of ED, as it was occurring more often and continues to do so. If it was still an ED maybe people would start to ask questions about staffing requirements.

Azimuth - Internal magazine

AWB - Allan Woods Building - ASA headquarters in Canberra

ALM - Middle level manager

tontinewarrior

3rd Jun 2012, 03:46

like the imminent deployment of FPCF

Seamless upgrades needed for FPCF. These were abandoned on Wednesday. No FPCF means no universal free flight.
Won't the airlines be pleased, didn't happen on TFNs watch though, he left before it was canned. I hate to think of the waste.

ER_BN

3rd Jun 2012, 08:27

Tontine,

Slight thread drift but then again.....

Is your info that the TAAATS Eurocat Seamless Upgrade is dead???

Wow if true, goodbye automatic conflict detection and UPRs as you say.

Gosh, wait until the minister and airlines hears about this.

The next Senate Estimates will be even more interesting.

If true Not a good week re AsA's relationship with Thales.

Cause the other rumour also going round BN Centre was that because of some issues, AsA will not be upgrading the Eurocat software for 2012 Flight Plan...

Be interested if you know what Plan B is?

concernaviat

3rd Jun 2012, 08:45

So, only 65% staff bothered to even complete the survey (indicating that 35% of staff couldn't give a sh*t about the place - and of those who did complete the survey, there must have been some of them who were totally p*ssed off about the place), yet the AWB spin-doctors are trumpeting a magnificent "70% engagement of staff" outcome from the survey - the best ever!

So no doubt the Exec will pat themselves on the back and award themselves a nice bonus for excelling.

How on earth can they compare these surveys between years (when they use a different methodology and was conducted by a different mob this year), then have the hide and audacity to trumpet an all-time high 70% engagement!!

What a lot of nonsense.

AFS supposedly had a 100% return rate, yet some in that camp claim to have never opened let alone submit the survey.

So, yet again more lies and spin from BS-castle.

tontinewarrior

3rd Jun 2012, 09:57

Seamless upgrades given up. Confirmed with techs.
FPCF cannot be used as envisioned without seamless upgrades. Therefore no universal free flight.
Plan B will probably be the usual i.e. 5 year plans every year, engagement surveys, doing more with less, SDE, accountability, listen to industry stakeholders, waffle, waffle, promise,promise,deny,deny, renegade controllers fault.

Worrals in the wilds

3rd Jun 2012, 12:01

We have a refurb of 'empire central' in Canberra where our participants are invited to choose their favourite chair! I can show you photos of chairs in the centre that haven't been replaced for 10 years with the fabric worn through where your legs rest on it. I'd say 30-40% of the seat backs are broken or defective. BUT, let's make sure the haters in Canberra are sorted. I think that across the aviation industry in Australia there is a belief among many senior managers that big accidents can't happen. All they care about are costs and oneupmanship between themselves because that's a much more real personal threat than a crash, because after all...accidents can't happen. :ugh:

I think there is also an ingrained lack of respect for operational staff and the jobs they do; whether they be pilots, air traffic controllers, or the multitude of other workers who keep aircraft in the air. There is little recognition of the daily pressure faced by operational staff or the skills they have, because the perception is that if those people were worthy of respect, wouldn't they be managers? They're not, so they must be failures and they can safely (ha ha :}) be ignored and dismissed as :mad:wits. :ugh:

When those operational people raise issues about safety, staffing or bad practice all too often they're dismissed as whingers, drama queens or trouble makers, because after all...accidents can't happen.

Accidents can and do happen, often because a systemic failure allowed one person's poor decision to lead to a catastrophic outcome. Often, aviation activities are only two or three human errors away from an accident. Sometimes it's less than that. However, to the average manager, that's an undefined, fuzzy risk when weighed up against the actual risk to them (no bonus, career suicide) of a budget blowout or bringing bad news to the organization's leaders. All too frequently they surround themselves with happy, ignorant little people who subscribe to the same world view, and distance themselves from the crusty cynics with actual experience who challenge their rosy garden outlook.

In too many aviation organizations the medium has become the message and Management has become the organization's prime focus at the expense of the core business the organization is supposed to provide, whether that be aircraft transport, air traffic control or operational support. The core business becomes sidelined in a sea of budget wrangles, buzzwords and managerial one-upmanship, leaving the people who make the core business function floundering with no support, ageing equipment and a lack of training and staff.

Additionally, as Jack points out, many aviation managers these days have little or no frontline experience in the service they're tryng to manage. They don't understand the often complex and stressful duties their staff perform day after day, and value their skills somewhere below giving a good presentation to the board about Outcomes and doing up a beaut Powerpoint slideshow to accompany it. Addtionally, many operational staff are inherently bad at blowing their own trumpets, so they get left behind with their concerns unheard while the organization's leaders pat each other on the back about being underbudget and get themselves some fancy new chairs.

Meanwhile, about those accidents...They can't happen, right? :ooh:

le Pingouin

3rd Jun 2012, 14:53

KPIs and black swans don't mix too well.

Up-into-the-air

3rd Jun 2012, 17:18

From the annual report of 2011, the following may go somewhat to explain the situation now occurring:

Ministerial directions 1996 – Handling of aircraft noise complaints
Airservices dedicated Noise Enquiry Unit provides information about noise complaints. Airservices created a Community Relations section on 25 October 2010 within its Environment group to liaise with Airport consultative forums and communities impacted by aircraft noise.
Airservices has also agreed to implement all 18 recommendations in the initial report
of the Aircraft Noise Ombudsman (refer to Aircraft Noise Ombudsman (http://www.ano.gov.au) for more detail).

1997 – Sydney Long Term Operating Plan Airservices continues to provide air traffic management in Sydney under the provisions of the Long Term Operating Plan (LTOP) which seeks to provide a safe and efficient air traffic environment while minimising, as much as possible, noise intrusions on surrounding suburbs. Airservices continues to closely monitor and report on LTOP operations via its website.

1999 – Responsibilities in relation to the environmental effects of aircraft
Airservices promotes high quality environmental practices in regard to aircraft operations and is working closely with airlines and airports. The introduction of new technologies will deliver benefits in safety and efficiency and savings in fuel, time and emissions. Airservices continues to provide noise and flight path monitoring systems
and the Noise Enquiry Unit to provide information to the public on noise issues.

2004 – Provision of approach radar services at specific airports
Ten airport locations are subject to this direction. In July 2010, CASA completed a
safety assessment of these locations and found no immediate safety concerns. Airservices released a plan for the phased implementation of enhanced surveillance and air traffic management services at these locations for industry consultation. The first of these enhancements occurred in Tasmania in early June 2011.Look at the time delays and the long term safety implications!!

AND Further:

Safety???

Air traffic service (ATS) attributed en route breakdowns of separation rate

[3-year average per annum to 2010–11 2010–11 target 2010–11 actual]

ATS attributed number of en route breakdowns of separation per 100,000 flight hours (12-month moving average) 1.06 <1.25 1.26 1
ATS attributed terminal area breakdowns of separation rate
ATS attributed number of terminal area breakdowns of separation per 100,000 movements (12-month moving average) 0.98 <1.50 1.00
ATS attributed tower breakdowns of separation rate
ATS attributed number of tower breakdowns of separation per 100,000 movements (12-month moving average) excluding GAAP towers 0.56 <1.50 0.21To me that adds up to in fact - 2.21 breakdowns of seperation/ 100,000 movements

Please explain Mr. AirServices.

Core Business indeed :=

Sunfish

3rd Jun 2012, 19:38

Worrals, your concerns refer to the same state of mind as NASA'a managers prior to Two Space shuttle accidents.

Feynemans famous appendix refers:

Feynman's Personal Observations On The Reliability Of The Space Shuttle (http://www.fotuva.org/feynman/challenger-appendix.html)

Personal observations on
the reliability of the Shuttle,
by R.P. Feynman

Introduction

It appears that there are enormous differences of opinion as to the probability of a failure with loss of vehicle and of human life. The estimates range from roughly 1 in 100 to 1 in 100,000. The higher figures come from the working engineers, and the very low figures from management. What are the causes and consequences of this lack of agreement? Since 1 part in 100,000 would imply that one could put a Shuttle up each day for 300 years expecting to lose only one, we could properly ask "What is the cause of management's fantastic faith in the machinery?"

Here to Help

3rd Jun 2012, 22:45

Incoming Angus has a hell of a job to do; if the Minister and the mandarins are chuffed to bits with the current AsA the 100 million profit and very nicely insulated (thank you) against the remote chance of repercussions, the title Mission Impossible springs to mind.

Mission : Impossible? - YouTube

Kharon

3rd Jun 2012, 23:47

.Albo 's – 4 ball juggling act. Coming to a circus near you – soon.

Watch this amazing artiste manage the "Balls of Death"; as the lights dim and the drum roll softly dies away Albo the Amazing is balance on a sword blade, suspended high above a trough of boiling pony pooh.

But this is not the thing our hero fears most; no the most deadly part of this world famous juggling act is the dismount. The applause at the end triggers both the airbag and safety net, no applause the system will not work.

The difficulty is increased by a noisy crowd hurling unpleasant truths, aircraft parts, wrecked careers and really nasty figures, such as the research costs to ensure the reduction of kerosene showers over Albo 's remote village.

So lets sit still as little mice and watch quietly as this great artiste performs the worlds most dangerous act; trying to convince the world that his potential for disaster ball has not conflicted his safety control ball and his airport ball does not bounce off the legal tricks ball.

The secret is in the Amazing Separation Science developed in a publicly funded underground laboratory, if this fails – all bets are off. Drop one, drop all.

Book ahead. (pensioners and children half price for the matinee performance).

blackhand

4th Jun 2012, 00:20

Jack Ranga - We move more and more traffic every day with the same amount of controllers, we are amongst the most efficient in the world when it comes to movements verse staff members. You will get no thanks from ASA for what you do.

The discrepancy between increased staff numbers and the statis in controllers' numbers was asked about by one of the senators at the Estimates hearing, to me Xenophon seemed to accept your acting CEO's statement and then pursued it no further.
Seeing as this is to do with expenditure I felt he(the senator) could have pursued it further instead of trying to be a know it all about Butson and other superscillious matters.

alphacentauri

4th Jun 2012, 00:44

So I just attended the EOS presentation...here are the figures for ATC

60% Response Rate : 66% Engagement index

So lets have a look at real numbers.

60% of 1283 = 770 people responded (Which means 513 people didn't)

Of that 770 ony 66% said thay had positive engagement (508 people).

Of the 1283 that makes only 40% of people that have positive engagement.

The problem is we don't know exactly who responded and who didn't but I think they are coming to incorrect conclusions based on incomplete data. For example, how many active ATCers are there? about 480-490. You could make the conclusion that not one active ATCer completed the questionare. Now I am pretty sure some of them did, but it does highlight how many people they are excluding from their results.

Interesting that there seems to be about about 800 support staff for about 500 active controllers. Thats nearly 2 support staff per controller just in ATC.

Other interesting points of note from those that did respond;

1. It seems we are all happy with out work. No surprises there, I am sure most of us actually like our job
2. There seems to be alot of disappointment with the performance of management. Surprisingly the comment was made that they don't understand that and they will have to look into why that is....I can give them a hint.....your Mangement sucks!!
3. Nearly all of the ATC support areas (Ops and Business) had 100% response rate....what people will do for a chocolate.

So its all onward and upward as far as Management is concerned.

Alpha :ugh:

Up-into-the-air

4th Jun 2012, 02:08

For the data on traffice movements, which are not even found in the annual treport, but are in the Departments site at:

Airport traffic data (http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/airport_traffic_data.aspx)

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r623/soilmaster/dataairservices.jpg

So if we do the sums, that gives us 13.75 [100,000 movements] and 2,21 breakdowns of seperation per 100,000

Explain ASA - 30 breakdowns of seperation - Is this why tha data is not in your annual report??

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Baileys

4th Jun 2012, 02:39

When you say "explain ASA" who are you suggesting is responsible for failing to separate aircraft?? I don't really get where this is going? Who are you trying to blame?

I know that if I have a loss of separation - in the end it is MY FAULT. If I do my job properly (which is what I am trained and paid very well to do) it is also my fault. People make mistakes but you still have personal responsibility for your stuff ups. That's why you get paid what you do.

I don't get this blame everyone else attitude...

EDIT - OK am I way off track here? Yep. Sorry

Jack Ranga

4th Jun 2012, 02:55

I think the overiding view from most ATC's is that ASA as an organisation lacks integrity from it's management. There is no accountability for failed projects.

ASA massively over-promises and under-delivers. And for that the industry pays, which in turn is passed onto YOU the taxpayer. I'd like to see Russell's remuneration, in particular any bonuses that were paid and for what reason?

gobbledock

4th Jun 2012, 03:11

Article below has purported by 'Roxton, the Minister for Manly Hairstyles'!
This is how government and associated departments will ensure you don't get to see what your hard earned taxpayer funds are actually getting blown on!
And they call this 'transparency'? Don't fix the problem, just paper over the facts. No wonder Fort Fumble and ASA are dysfunctional basket case's.

Slipper's epenses out of the bag but rest likely to stay secret

Linton Besser, Matthew Moore

June 4, 2012

PETER SLIPPER'S new coat and tails cost taxpayers $1248.
His total travel bill in his first six months as Speaker of the Parliament was
more than $18,000. He has spent more than $8500 on catering.

It will be the first - and probably only - time the Parliament discloses what
perks it pays federal politicians.

Mr Slipper's spending figures were obtained by the Herald under
freedom of information in what is believed to be the first successful
application in the Parliament's history. <iframe id="dcAd-1-3" src="http://ad-apac.doubleclick.net/adi/onl.wa.news/opinion/politicalnews;cat=opinion;cat1=politicalnews;ctype=article;p os=3;sz=300x250;tile=3;ord=3.1679004E7?" width='300' height='250' scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" allowtransparency="true" frameborder="0"> < /iframe>
But the Attorney-General, Nicola Roxon, has said the government will shield remaining MPs from such scrutiny by moving Parliament outside the reach of FOI.

Her office said she was considering a bill to ensure the perks Parliament
paid or administered - as well as the $230 million a year its departments
managed - remained secret. ''It has been long-accepted practice that the
parliamentary departments are exempt from FOI,'' her spokesman said in a statement. ''The government is considering its options to correct this
anomaly.''

An FOI expert, Peter Timmins, said the planned legislation was a serious
setback for accountability, noting that the government had failed to properly overhaul the way politicians were remunerated after a landmark inquiry in March last year recommended root-and-branch reform.

'They receive or administer significant amounts of public money that are not subject to the same standards of accountability and transparency that other government agencies are subject to,'' Mr Timmins said.
''Why don't we have a single system that is transparent so that we can see online how this money is being spent in real time?'' he said, citing the
Scottish Parliament as an example of where such measures were in place.

Since freedom-of-information laws were introduced in Australia, the Federal Parliament has been considered off limits. The bureaucracy might have to account for its spending but the Parliament and its politicians do not, despite the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission that Parliament should be covered.

But in 1999, when a new parliamentary services law was introduced, the three agencies that run the Parliament were accidentally exposed to the legislation. No one noticed until now.

In late April, the serjeant-at-arms of the House of Representatives, Robyn
McClelland, denied the Sunshine Coast Daily access to information about
Peter Slipper's expenses as deputy speaker: ''Such details have not been
released previously and we do not propose to make the details that you have requested available to you at this time.''

But the matter came to the attention of the Australian Information
Commissioner, John McMillan, who made a surprise ruling that the Department of the House of Representatives, the Department of the Senate and the Department of Parliamentary Services had all been subject to the law since 1999.

On May 1, the Herald tested the ruling. Last Thursday it received a
table of all money paid to Mr Slipper first as deputy speaker and then, since November, as speaker.

In all, Mr Slipper has cost taxpayers $407,000 in the two roles.But on the day the Parliament was preparing to give the Herald this information, Ms Roxon announced the government deemed such disclosure an
''anomaly''.

The Greens senator Lee Rhiannon said all MPs should be covered by FOI and their expenses should be readily available to the public.

"Public money is what keeps the House of Representatives and the Senate
functioning and the public have a right to know how that money is spent,'' she said. ''Parliament should not be beyond the reach of FOI.''

When Britain passed FOI laws 12 years ago, its Parliament and MPs were
included and the media and others sought details of their expenses. The
Parliament tried to stop the release but the courts said it was public money and public information.

The Parliament continued to resist until the entire file of MPs' expense
claims and disbursements was leaked to the media in 2009 and caused a national scandal. Some MPs were claiming ''second-home'' allowances while renting those properties out, some were inflating council tax rates on these properties and pocketing the difference, and many were claiming inflated costs for renovations or repairs to their properties.

The speaker and several ministers were sacked, the then prime minister,
Gordon Brown, issued a public apology and several MPs were prosecuted and given jail sentences.

In case the Australian government does try to move the Parliament out of the reach of FOI, on Friday the Herald asked the Parliament for the
expenses of every member of the House of Representatives and the
Senate.

Nautilus Blue

4th Jun 2012, 08:15

2. There seems to be alot of disappointment with the performance of management. Surprisingly the comment was made that they don't understand that and they will have to look into why that is....I can give them a hint.....your Mangement sucks!!

Remember, the question was "Do you think management are doing a good job?", NOT "Are management doing a good job?" Management know they are doing a good job, they wan't to make sure you know it too. In their arrogance they will now accept the blame for not communicating their excellence adequately to the simple workers, and will no doubt launch a major poster campaign. The same as previous years where we failed to understand that management have safely as their priority, or when we couldn't see managers are held responsible etc.

Up-into-the-air

4th Jun 2012, 10:01

Here are some more data following upon the table that I posted earlier. It makes interesting reading just the data, now have a look at that graph. There is also some information about passenger numbers.

Be interesting to put those with what was charged per trip.

I will leave somebody else to do that!!!

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r623/soilmaster/movements-2.jpg

and for Passenger Numbers:

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r623/soilmaster/paxnumbersgraphB-W-1.jpg

Jack Ranga

4th Jun 2012, 11:00

So have a look at those pax numbers between 2003 and now, close to double. I would hazard a guess that ATC numbers between now then are roughly the same, if anything we may have had more in 2003.

Yet, in the last 2 years alone there are 840 more NON-ATC staff. How many NON-ATC staff are there from 2003???

If it is a per pax charge where has the money gone?

2003-2012 Pax numbers around doubled.

2003-2012 ATC numbers static, may even be a decrease.

2003-2012 ASA admin, managers, whomever, up 840 in the last two years alone, could even be up 1000-1500.

Well?......................

Core business?..................

Baileys

4th Jun 2012, 11:35

But you aren't a passenger separator! You can prove, disprove, say anything you want with stats and graphs. Managers do it all the time. Doesn't mean a thing. I bet you could pull out stats that disprove exactly what you are trying to prove.

Do you think Nav Charges are per passenger?

Up-into-the-air

4th Jun 2012, 12:46

The point is here, that these numbers were not published by airservices, but are from the "aviation statistics" collected by the transport office.

I would have thought that the release of these by asa would be part of their "core business" reporting??

Well??

Blockla

4th Jun 2012, 13:08

Do you think Nav Charges are per passenger?Effectively that's the way it works... The slight increase in Movements but Huge increase in Pax generally means the aircraft are getting bigger (I'm sure the loadings are very unlikely to have significantly changed); the bigger the bird the bigger the Nav charges; combine that with the changes to rates charged in the past 10 years...

Not saying Ireland does it better, but you don't see their ANSP generating 100s of millions in profits, even though it's in a much better position to do so as the majority of it's customers are not locals (companies or citizens) and the governments bottom line is in a far worse position.

I'm not so concerned about the back office roles as such; because forgetting the empire building element, most of those can actually 'support the front end'; my concern would be the massive amounts of money spent on 'development' of the latest machine that goes ping, with no economic case for said machine.

Various projects have absorbed huge investments that will never pay back. Lots of them for nothing more than ideology; or some other reason...

Having worked with a more 'modern' version of TAAATS in Ireland, with 2 people on every console, there is a huge difference between safe and safe enough. When was the last time Ireland closed airspace due to the lack of staff, or instigated a 'short break' procedure, or had excessive over-time all the while having two people per sector. Would be interesting to see the 'breakdown stats' comparing the two ANSPs.

IFATCA has a 4 eye policy for safety, Australia has a 2 eye policy (some times 1 eye or no eye policy) for economic reasons. There are significant limitations going forward for fixing this mess, but a redesign is definitely a must; unfortunately it has to come from the front end back, not the other way around; like every other 'restructure' for the past 20 years. No 'supervised handovers' when one controller is staying on position, much smaller risk.

Kharon

4th Jun 2012, 20:18

Blockla – #109. Have a ceegar mate. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

This whole mess deserves to be laid firmly at the Ministers door, he runs these departments and should be able to answer questions, preferably during question time.

I would like to know how much money ASA has made, how much has been wasted, how much has been spent on lunches and 'essential spousal travel' etc., how much on bonuses paid against failed projects, how much on advertising spin and self aggrandisement, just for starters.

Then I would like to know why our first class ATC people are struggling with half arsed systems, short of staff, short of training personnel, short of chairs and can't get an expensive simulator working.

It cannot be that ASA is short of money – the proceeds of this cynical, massive public rip off go where ?. Not to improved systems, not to more coal face crew, not to training, not even a few new chairs. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

And Australia decries sweatshops in the third world.
Arrghh - Steam off. :ugh:

Sarcs

4th Jun 2012, 21:46

Wow from an outsider's point of view this thread makes for some shocking reading in regards to the state of affairs within ASA.

No offence to the 'live' ATCers but it sure makes you think twice about putting your loved ones on (certain) bunsen burners..you know the operators who already have multiple hole alignment!:{

Jack Ranga is the ASA SMS/reporting system either overloaded or totally ignored...sure would make for interesting 'bedtime reading'...or is it another example of how best to tick a box!:ugh:

Jack Ranga

5th Jun 2012, 00:38

You can prove, disprove, say anything you want with stats and graphs

Do you think I don't know that? I would have thought that would be obvious?

Do you think Nav Charges are per passenger?

How do you think the airlines are allocating it? In the end it is a per pax charge whether you are paying for it on next years projections or not.

Jack Ranga

5th Jun 2012, 00:50

Jack Ranga is the ASA SMS/reporting system either overloaded or totally ignored

I'm sure on the operational side of things it's robust. Personally, I'm talking about the bigger picture. A company's values and how it behaves corporately are important. Given long enough, this garbage filters down. We have seen this in the Academy.

Ex FSO GRIFFO

5th Jun 2012, 03:18

Hi Mr K, et Al,

At most circuses, the ringmaster (Alb) controls the show, the clowns (Managerial staff) provide the distractions, while the professionals - trapeze artists - (ATCers) climb up their towers (and into their Centres) and launch themselves into their death defying acts....much to the amazement of all watchers and other participants.....

It seems that we, the OZ Public, have more clowns than we have professionals (not) protecting our collective arses when ever we take to the skies.....

The 'savings' in the provision of airservices, with the so-called 'modernisation', was always touted to the industry when it was introduced, that the 'savings' would be split equally between the 'stakeholders' - i.e. the industry, Airservices Aust, and the Guvmint.

So, the industry is supposed to get a reduction over time in the charges levied by ASA, - which they simply pass on the the travelling taxpayer anyway, - the ATC organisation is supposed to 'share ' in the bounty, in the form of wage rises and improved conditions over time, - and the Guvmint simply collects the remainder as a TAX!

'Guvmint Business Enterprise' - G.B.E. was established, I think by the Howard Govt - I may be wrong here, but it was a 'fair while back'....

It is apparent that the income providers - ATCers - are NOT getting their fair share due to its being 'creamed off' at the top..??

Cheers:sad::E

Baileys

5th Jun 2012, 03:59

The point being that passenger numbers are irrelevant unless they have wings and a transponder.

It is aircraft movements that matter and they have risen by only 100,000ish in 15 years (1995 - 2010 on the graph posted here).

100,000 is huge you say? Well it's not. And if we do this.......

100,000/365days/30sectors/3shiftsperday (guessing here) = 3 movements per sector per shift increase over 15 years. Now what has your salary done from 1995 to 2011???? Gotta love stats.

See what I mean. You made heaps of good points before but be careful what figures you are quoting.

westausatc

5th Jun 2012, 04:33

Baileys,

I agree with your point that stats can be used to prove anything (the use of maternity leave to 'prove' TFN's claim ATC's took too much sick leave last EBA negotiations was a perfect case) but your simple model fails because it fails to take account of the fact that if CX put on one more HK-ML flight, which adds one to the movement total, it passes through about 8 sectors from FIR entry to touchdown. That it then conflicts with the latest airline adding to the SY-SG route or the latest BN-PH aircraft, etc., etc., etc., is not recorded in that picture either.

The clever bods at AsA have a device which measures how many aircraft an open console is controlling. Management then use that data to see if sectors could have combined when they were split, which could lead to a reduction in staff required. What this fails to take account of is the complexity in dealing with the traffic that's there. For example, I have been busier with 3 aircraft on frequency than when I have had 12 but when this data is collected, no questions are asked of the controllers involved about what was happening. The data is then used by people in Canberra who are responsible for cutting controller numbers as much as possible (sorry, resourcing each group appropriately), it is not used by controllers or even ex-controllers. This is just one of the ways that AsA uses its statistics selectively or even in an entirely arse-about way and why I trust numbers from coal-face workers more than management.

Not sure who wrote it, but are they really not going to have TAAATS ready for the 2012 flight plan change-over in Nov??? Wow, don't want to be a flight data...

Baileys

5th Jun 2012, 04:41

My flawed model has more than one flaw. But that was the idea. 'We' can see that - it is obvious. The focus and emphasis should remain on the wastage outside of ATC - not on how hard done by you are with your broken chairs and large passenger numbers. After all you could just pad the chairs up a bit every second Thursday with all the overtime money you guys are getting!

missy

5th Jun 2012, 07:49

the 'savings' would be split equally between the 'stakeholders' - i.e. the industry, Airservices Aust, and the Guvmint.

Sorry, but my recollection was 1/3 Industry, 1/3 Airservices (government), 1/3 ATC staff delivering the service.

Thread drift, sorry.

Plazbot

5th Jun 2012, 08:55

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/389532_302914066387286_686990061_n.jpg

Source: CANSO ATM Report & Directory 2011

I'll let someone else point out the obvious maths. The average per controller.....

Enjoy the negotiation chaps:ok:

ferris

5th Jun 2012, 09:34

Err, SMATSA? 8 towers.......

Plazbot

5th Jun 2012, 09:53

The graphs there compared to the graph at the top......

Baileys

5th Jun 2012, 10:01

I get it, I get it. ASA aren't as efficient as they think.....not even close. But pretty close to Serbia actually. no

Plazbot - how does this factor in sector size differences and also seat comfort issues?

Plazbot

5th Jun 2012, 12:46

On the topic of breakdown of separation, the graph on the right had 0.776/100000 movements.

Serbians don't sit on chairs but in baskets full of broken glass and snakes.

As for sector size, seeing the discussion is about movements per controller, tell me what is preferable, 15 aircraft in a 15x30 sector or 15 in a 150x300.

Hmmmmmmmm

Jack Ranga

5th Jun 2012, 14:42

not on how hard done by you are with your broken chairs and large passenger numbers. After all you could just pad the chairs up a bit every second Thursday with all the overtime money you guys are getting!

Sweet mate, I'm happy to sit on a milk crate with a cushion from the two dollar shop. But that's as long as the brothers in Clown Castle are doing the same, yeah?

I get paid what I get paid. Supply and demand right? Wrong. If supply and demand controlled it I'd be getting paid twice as much (which I think would be just about right by the way). In the end you show your true colours, bitching and moaning about what someone else is getting and you're not. Boo fecking Hoo for you mate :{

Kharon

5th Jun 2012, 21:24

Smoke is widely used by Voodoo witch doctors to baffle the tribe.

Mirrors are mostly used by narcissists to keep things in perspective.

Statistics are used instead of pony pooh, to confound lower forms of intelligence.

Follow the money; the real numbers shine brightly from under the dross. If a corporation or bank blatantly, cynically and corruptly ripped off the public there would be an international scandal, headlines and fairy stories to terrify (or educate) future generations.

The public should ask for a true accounting; exactly how much hard cash has been tipped down the Swanee; how much has been sprayed up the wall on many failed projects, how much has been payed out in bonuses and packages to the numerous departed directors, managers etc., how much has been eaten, travelled on and used for purposes other than the safety of the Australian travelling public and the integrity of air traffic management.

Then ask how is it that having wasted this amount of money, was a 100 million dollar profit made from a clearly deficient service which relies on so very few to make it's indecent profits.

No Minister, it's not a good look. Taxi for the Minister please, oh! and a box trailer for his watchdogs.

Sarcs

5th Jun 2012, 21:44

No Minister, it's not a good look. Taxi for the Minister please, oh!

...."oh and Albo don't forget your taxi vouchers!":ok:

blackhand

5th Jun 2012, 23:24

Good to hear from you blokes at the coal face.
To keep it away from statistics and other superscillious issues:
How many hours a week do you blokes work?
Not interested in what senior management do or earn.

boree3

5th Jun 2012, 23:40

How many hours a week do you blokes work?

The simple answer is too many. If nobody worked any extra, over and above their rostered hours, the place would fall apart in a week!

If you believe the spin then we have sufficient numbers . The latest jargon is 'core' or 'mature'. Lots of 'mature' controllers that's for sure!

In aviation terms we have an ever decreasing number of 747 drivers with lots of newbies just learning to fly a C172. No matter how fast we train and how many corners we cut we are struggling to have sufficiently qualified drivers for the heavy machinery. No problemo. We just give the C172 a cruise rating on the 747. I mean nothing can go wrong when the 747 is in level flight at Fl350 can it? If something does trouble the newbie we have lots of baggage handlers around to offer their invaluable experience. NOT! No disrespect intended to the bag snatchers but you get what I mean. The experience levels are on a slippery slope downhill.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

blackhand

6th Jun 2012, 00:52

The simple answer is too many.
Subjective answer Boree.
How many in reality please.

Plazbot

6th Jun 2012, 05:45

'There are a boat load in the sandpit who want to come home'

You sure about that? In many ways the sand ended up being greener. Things a plenty need to change in AsA or the controllers will just be right back in the mess they left.

Nautilus Blue

6th Jun 2012, 09:33

Blackhand short answer, as much as you want. Long answer, depends. We're rostered 72(?) hours a fortnight, but that is averaged over the roster cycle, in my case six weeks (which is why I'm not sure if it's 72 or a bit more or less, I just blindly trust whoever writes the roster). Overtime is very variable, over time and location. The General Manager, sorry Executive General Manager is probably correct when he says company wide the average is one shift a month. Trouble is, some units are fully staffed and hardly do any, while others are short, even without sick leave.

Our roster usually has 20 people to cover a 22 person roster, roughly. Another 2 or 3 wil be on leave at any one time to allow everyone to aquit their annual leave. Then take two people offline to cross train on another sector in the group, another two to train them for a few days in the sim, someone else gets released to go to a tower that's even more desperate for staff, some maternity leave, someone gets the flu for a few days and the whole thing nearly collapses.

However, each days OT is usually filled the day before, but you can volunteer in advance. So if you rally want the money you could easily do 2 or 3 shifts a fortnight, say between 16 an 30 hours. Then probably once or twice a week you wil be asked to stay late or come in early, say another 4 to 8 hours a fortnight. Alternatively, you can ignore the phone on your days off, and have commitments before or after work, and do none. Most people are somewhere in the middle.

The there's the invisible shortages, gaps in the roster that an not filled, getting by with 5 people for a few hours instead of six etc. Ridiculously we sometimes have to call two people in on OT because they each hold half the sector ratings required, and no one else is available.

I think what gets most of us is no the amount of OT, but firstly, the number of phone calls. You can easily be called 3 or 4 times in one day to come to work. If it looks like airspace will be closed it is policy to call back everyone who has declined the shift, and pressure them by telling then if they do not come to work, airspace will be closed, i.e. what ever happens is now on them. (Our new harassment supremo has ruled then being rung three times to do the same OT shift is not harassment!)

Secondly, it's management's constant denial. My line manager showed me a spreadsheet that proved we wen't understaffed. When I asked why then were there blank lines on the roster, and why I was asked to to OT while on annual leave, he had no answer.

Jabawocky

6th Jun 2012, 13:39

ATC's are feckin' ace:ok:

Ex FSO GRIFFO

6th Jun 2012, 14:24

Come in on O/T from ARL..??

Did this not USED to attract a full ARL entitlement starting again from
'day 1' of ARL entitlement..??

Wot's the goss these days..??

:D

topdrop

7th Jun 2012, 01:55

Did this not USED to attract a full ARL entitlement starting again from
'day 1' of ARL entitlement..??

Pity we don't still have that, nowadays they subtract the ARL you have taken, and fortunately they don't subtract the leave you haven't used.

shinning

7th Jun 2012, 02:17

That's a fair picture painted by NB. Of course, don't forget that controllers are required to give a reason as to why they knock back overtime when called at home on their day off. On the upside, phone calls to attend overtime are reducing in some groups as it is becoming more popular to either not replace a vacant shift or at least only replace an 8 hr shift with 6hrs of overtime (as an example). Safety first once again as this means potentially (and often) longer stints at the console in often busy, complex environments which leads to higher fatigue, higher risk of errors, cumulative fatigue, stress, etc leading to higher rates of illness, sick days, more overtime required, etc .... and the cycle continues.

Regarding pax numbers as mentioned previously, in many cases it is a matter of bigger airframes resulting in higher numbers, but don't discount the significant increase in aircraft being processed and the complexity increase created, most notably with mining FIFO from major ports, i.e. Perth, Brisbane.

JackoSchitt

7th Jun 2012, 07:23

"New appointments to the Airservices Board
Wednesday, 6 June 2012
We are pleased to inform staff that the Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Anthony Albanese MP, has appointed four new Directors to the Airservices Board.

Samantha Betzien, Annette Kimmitt, Paul Lucas and Tony Mathews bring a range of new skills to our Board, with vast experience across aviation, legal, financial and infrastructure fields and start in these positions from today.blah blah blah....."

Yes punters.......the PAUL LUCAS referred to above is the VERY SAME Paul Lucas who "retired" from politics on 16 Sep 2011 and was the minister responsible who said "We let people down" in reference to the QLD health payroll rollout which led to thousands of QLD Health workers to be wrongly paid and was described as the "worst failure in public administration in QLD History"...

....but its all good now that he is on the "SS.Airservices" board huh?

hiwaytohell

7th Jun 2012, 10:45

The one positive is at least he is a total aircraft fanatic!

Kharon

7th Jun 2012, 20:50

For those unfamiliar with British electrical systems, Lucas gear was powered by smoke; once the smoke got out – operation ceased.

Questions for the ATC 'ers :-
1) FPCF is ??.
2) TAAATS Eurocat Seamless Upgrade is ??.

AsA will not be upgrading the Eurocat software for 2012 Flight Plan.
What was abandoned: seamless upgrades or FPCP ?.
FPCF cannot be used as envisioned without seamless upgrades. Therefore no universal free flight. ?.I only ask because if this (they) were intended to provide efficiencies for the airlines, the public and improve safety, are they to be abandoned, if so why ?. Be interesting to project the expected cost impact on airline operations in terms of efficiency lost.

Probably also like to know the level of public money invested, in real terms, you know consultants, travel, conferences, reports, meetings etc. etc. Not to mention infrastructure, equipment, hardware, software, training, research etc. and the time expended to get to the abandon ship order to getting something equivalent in place.

Taxi Minister?.

alphacentauri

7th Jun 2012, 21:34

Kharon, however much money it is.....it clearly isn't/wasn't enough. ATC group have run out of money in the budget until the new FY. If you have look around the mighty AWB you will be surprised by the amount of people who's job is in Canberra but they don't live here. They commute in and out and get put up in Canberra all on the company purse.

But yes, AsA appears to bleed a lot of money. Meanwhile, the list of failed projects and downgrading of the upgrading continues.

hiwaytohell

7th Jun 2012, 22:05

OK I am interested! Jack & other ATCers, if you have six silver bullets to fix your issues with AsA what are they?

...and I mean no disrespect but I say "your" issues because from the other side of the mike it appears you guys do an outstanding job, however if things are this bad it could soon enough be "our" issues.

And what about the RAAF integration. What will that mean to us flyers?

peuce

8th Jun 2012, 00:19

Probably also like to know the level of public money invested, in real terms, you know consultants, travel, conferences, reports, meetings etc. etc. Not to mention infrastructure, equipment, hardware, software, training, research etc. and the time expended to get to the abandon ship order to getting something equivalent in place.

Just a reminder .... NO public money .... it's all Airlines' money.
ASA is NOT a Government Department, funded by taxes.

HOWEVER, it does contribute about $100m p.a. TO the public purse. Which, in effect, is the Airlines' "donation" to the Australian public. Aren't they nice?

le Pingouin

8th Jun 2012, 14:34

FPCF = Flight Plan Conflict Function. Software that can look ahead and identify conflicts, mainly for use in a procedural control environment. Handling multiple random tracks (free flight) is difficult because it's very hard and laborious to prove separation. Imagine a couple of tracks that converge and diverge multiple times.

Seamless upgrades = being able to upgrade the TAAATS software without putting the whole system in a state of degraded functionality for a few hours as happens now.

Pavement

8th Jun 2012, 23:07

Hiwaytohell I'll have a go.

1. Analyse the capital programe and do a proper cost/benefit of all projects (in conjunction with industry delegates after all they are paying). Hold managers accountable for the delivery and benefits of the project (properly accountable. How many have got bonuses in the past when they have presided over failed projects?).

2. Top down review of all support positions in the organisation to determine what value they add.

3. Dump or re-educate senior level management. The time for bullying and childish behaviour is gone. The place is run like a kinder, putting people on blacklists etc when you need their skills is just stupid.

4. Recognise that ATCs love their job but hate the company. Dont make them salute the company flag. Use their love of the job to engage them.

5. Bring head office to either Brisbane or Melbourne. The need to be close to politicians is well gone. This would take a lot off a very very large travel budget.

6. Get some ATC experience into management and listen. How many managers have worked approach? How many have been sidelined when they have spoken up about safety issues or stupid projects?

7. Stop trying to preach to the world. Instead go out and see what everyone else is doing better and this might include spending more time with their RAAF colleagues.

Sorry got to 7 but I could go on. Its not hard (similar to fixing QF), simply engage the staff and listen because they work the crap day in day out - not some suit wearer in Canberra.

hiwaytohell

9th Jun 2012, 02:45

Thanks Pavement. It brightened my day to get a logical, positive, constructive response. I guess you won't make management ;)

While you are on a roll what about the RAAF integration? I only know what I read in the papers these days, but many years ago this idea was suggested but quickly slapped down?

Pavement

9th Jun 2012, 04:03

Not really sure as Im not privy to that sort of stuff. I do know the RAAF werent overly happy with the Perth integration and almost pulled out. I think it is dead at the moment with the belief that a new joint ATC system (circa 2020 now I think) will deliver the same benefits without any 'integration'.

Nautilus Blue

9th Jun 2012, 09:10

I do know the RAAF werent overly happy with the Perth integration and almost pulled out.

Hadn't heard that. PEA moving to TAATS for us was the best thing that happened in a long time. Much simpler procedures and a significant reduction in workload.

As far as I was aware, using a common system was the "integration". Buying two different incompatible ATC systems was stupid, only the crown prince of the kingdom of stupid would do it a second time.

Pavement

9th Jun 2012, 10:19

I think HTH was referring to integration meaning when Darwin APP was going to BN centre and some bases were going to be staffed by AsA (amongst other initiatives).

Nautilus Blue

9th Jun 2012, 14:06

I'd forgotten about that. There was talk of ML centre taking over ES too. Wasn't it driven by the RAAF being short of controllers? ASA are no longer in a position to help, even if the RAAF still needed or wanted it.

ER_BN

9th Jun 2012, 19:15

So NB,

How do you think the airlines are going to feel when they find out the new ATC system may not be there until at least 2020 and struggle to have the capability that TAAATS offers???

That's the rumours going round at the moment.

Then the off the shelf joint purchase with the military might not look like the best idea...

and what about the next eight years ....

Hmmm

Jack Ranga

10th Jun 2012, 02:26

hiwaytohell,

Others have put forward a couple. A couple that have affected the group I'm in:

1. The Training Academy was a disaster, ATC selection was close to a disaster. These points were known for some time. NOTHING was done about it because the DISASTER in charge was a 'yes woman,' told Russell what he wanted to hear. It looks like this situation may be on it's way back to reality. The fellow in charge of ATC has been around a long time. He's a bloke with integrity.

2. A return to core business. (Someone else has mentioned it but), a top down review of ALL administrative and management positions. Tell me one thing of value the NOC adds to this organisation?

3. Dismantling the whole structure at AWB. It is full of ATC haters. People jealous of our conditions and position.

4. People of integrity leading this organisation, not misleading industry, it's own employees, the government and regulating authorities.

5. The ALM structure MUST GO NOW. It has failed miserably compared to the team structure. One of the most concerning failures of this structure is the direct supervision and professional development of junior controllers.

hiwaytohell

10th Jun 2012, 03:39

Thanks Jack

Would you mind elaborating on your point 5.

And are the ALMs frontline supervisors, or are they Canberra seat shiners?

Jack Ranga

10th Jun 2012, 08:52

Line Managers are the rung above ATC's. They are aisle supervisors with portfolios thrown on top.

A little history:

An ATC Group used to consist of a number of sectors (2-6ish). There were 3 teams, each with a Team Leader (operational controllers) and a Group Leader (operational). They managed on the job training, their sim training, budgets etc. Most importantly they had direct control and knowledge of their staff.

Teams were scrapped, an ALM structure was devised, positions were spilled with former TL's & GL's invited to apply for ALM with you guessed it AWA'S (individual contracts). It was a cynical, political statement. Most TL's & GL's told ASA to jamb it. ALM's selected were 2nd & 3rd choice, their motivations? Not all of them (2nd & 3rd choice) but a fair percentage. Most line controllers could give you a fair assessment of why they are there :E

There is no direct supervision of new controllers, I can give you a direct example of how this detrimentally affected one of our newbies. Most ALM's have no knowledge of the airspace that controllers are working. I can tell you some cracking stories of how this is all panning out but I'd better not!

ER_BN

10th Jun 2012, 09:30

Jack,

Nice explanation,

I think most controllers would think destroying the operational team leaders and introducing the SDE farce were the two major deliberate mistakes of a hateful, ignorant and spiteful management early on in this crumbling regime.

The high tech stuff ups still to become obvious to most internally and externally, but the white TRUTH slowly appearing no matter what spin given to Senator Nick.

So many now in the organisation seem to have no idea of the core business so could be Task 1 of your ?cleanskin in the Academy!!

Still think it needs something more than Senate Estimates to get it all out and then fix it...

Hempy

10th Jun 2012, 15:03

ER_BN,

The truth is that the Academy (yes, we hate it, but what choice do you have?) is coming out of a period that can only be described as 'corrupt'. The structure is in the process of changing, and the fact that a very respected and experienced operator is now in charge of the ATC School with executive control over both Instructors and Trainees proves that at least the re-structure has achieved one good outcome. Take it easy on the staff though..there is a small (but "enough" according to a Hansard I read recently..), dedicated band there doing the best they can with a. the cattle they are given and b. the decisions of others pressed on them. Rest assured there have been plenty of angry conversations in the office discussing the merits of allowing a trainee to be, for example, re-coursed (for the 2nd or 3rd time..) or sit 5 supps...but the word is that the expectation is that the days of 'KPIs' are hopefully over, maybe.

Sarcs

10th Jun 2012, 22:05

Happy little campers at ASA!:{ Forgive me if this is posted elsewhere:

Flight safety fears as air staff bicker | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/flight-safety-fears-as-air-staff-bicker/story-fn6ck45n-1226389993428)

Senator X sums it up:
"This shows a deeply dysfunctional organisation and is made all the more alarming because they are responsible for safety in Australia's sky," he said.

Jack Ranga

11th Jun 2012, 00:22

Rest assured there have been plenty of angry conversations in the office
discussing the merits of allowing a trainee to be, for example, re-coursed (for
the 2nd or 3rd time..) or sit 5 supps

Just a little background info. In my day (no I'm not a crusty old bastard whinging about gen y!) as a trainee you got 2 supps and 2 supps ONLY. Fail them, you're out. Virtually the only appeal that would be successful would be if you lost a close relative. You were welcome to re-apply after a suitable time, many did and came back much better for the experience.

I know of recent trainees who've failed every single exam they took, theory and prac. and were then sent to the field. We didn't know their history so had no pre-conceived ideas. Yes, score it as you see it but you can tell when a trainee sits down on famil with you whether they have a good chance of getting through.

I've heard about many of the screaming matches with some very qualified ATC's who were terminated or left in disgust. This 'manager' is now probably getting about on job placement websites spruiking her previous experience, god help us :yuk:

ER_BN

11th Jun 2012, 00:34

Independent senator Nick Xenophon said the cases exposed a dysfunctional organisation, and he confirmed at least four whistleblowers had already come forward

Hmmm, this is going to get interesting, I wonder where it's going to stop???

Sarcs

11th Jun 2012, 00:56

Documents released under Freedom of Information laws have revealed 65 critical cases of misconduct since June 2010 - 16 against air traffic controllers.

Have these FOI documents been published? What is deemed a 'critical' case of misconduct? Or is that just journo dramatisation, still 65 cases of misconduct in two years sounds pretty damning!:=

hiwaytohell

11th Jun 2012, 01:12

Jack & others

Your feedback has been enlightening (and positive). While you are on a roll can you tell me what is the "technology" in the pipeline?

The people issues are one thing, but what are the tools/systems/technology that will be needed for your folks to do the job in 5 or 10 years time?

What is really coming and what is possible?

Hempy

11th Jun 2012, 09:57

I've said this here somewhere before, but I heard of a meeting maybe two 1/2 years ago with a group that included a respected 30+ year operational/training/systems veteran who quietly buy firmly stated that the 'organisation will not be able to provide an Air Traffic Service in 5 years time..' Now, new in the 'crystal balling' game at the time, I put it down to his well known tendency to cynicism. But 2 years later?....

as some wag said "the only difference between cynicism and reality is experience" ?

Creampuff

11th Jun 2012, 11:31

From the outside, Airservices Australia is doing a fantastic job: no mid-airs, and $$$ return to government.

Going on the posts from the people who purport to be on the inside of the operational parts of Airservices Australia, it appears that the primary reason the organisation survives is that very thinly-stretched, qualified ATCers agree to overtime and other band-aid fixes for controller shortages.

Political reality: The punters don’t give a tinker’s cuss about the unseen mayhem at the ground end of the aircraft microphone, provided the punters get from A to B alive.

I’m not aware of any groundswell of punter discontent about the standard of ATC.

Practical reality: If a sufficient number of ATCers have sufficiently low levels of self esteem and sufficiently high levels of indispensability syndrome to shuffle off to work for Airservices Australia, year after year, despite the purportedly bad management, poor conditions and high risks, rather than leave to do something they enjoy for themselves or an employer they respect, the status quo will continue.

Sorry folks: Governments don’t care, until the polls require them to.

thorn bird

11th Jun 2012, 12:08

Hmmm.. wonder what the "Polls" will show when two widebodies midair over downtown OZ city??
It would seem creamie you have nothing but contempt for dedication.

Hempy

11th Jun 2012, 12:34

torn bird,

sadly, it's true that nothing changes until something bad happens. In this case, it'll (and odds would suggest it's 'when' not 'if') result in a Royal Commission. The risk has always been there, the problem is that the odds (anecdotaly..) are shortening.

Creampuff,

No, the Government might not care. And no, the public in their ignorant bliss might not either, and yes, simple economic necessity and pure love of keeping aeroplanes apart keeps ATC's at the console. But, at the end of the day, if the newly minted controller who's just got through the college on his third crack and has had 5 or 6 weeks by himself working non-stop because of staffing pressure and perceived inability to say 'no' to overtime for fear of creating a bad impression with the new boss (because the new boss has given that impression..) has a really really bad day because his progress since being licenced hasn't been properly monitored because his supervisor doesn't know a thing about the airspace..well, he'll still go home that night and lie in his own bed. This is a pilots forum. This is a pilots issue, to be honest.

ferris

11th Jun 2012, 13:41

Taken from the Courier-mail story above...The shocking cases came only weeks after Australia's air safety watchdog ordered a top-to-bottom review of Air Services Australia after too many close calls in the air Creampuff, what is it about that statement you don't understand? Everybody involved is aware something is very wrong- quantifiably wrong. The organisation is not meeting even it's own standards regarding Breakdowns of Separation. BoS' don't mean a mid-air occurs, but they do point to a greatly increased risk of one! Now, whilst Joe Public might have no idea about the actual risk in getting from A to B, you only get to roll the dice so many times before Joe Public finds out in a very big, messy, front-page sort of way. You seem to be saying that the government has no role to play in prevention- only in the cleanup afterwards... because that is when the public gets interested! AFTER the event. Extremely cynical, and IMHO, an incorrect viewpoint. Good government isn't necessarily poll-driven, nor should it only deal with topical issues. Sometimes the important things are what goes on unsung. True, it may not, of itself, win elections, but whatever happened to doing what is right? A concept that seems to have gone missing in this day and age.

The people at the coal face get pissed off because it doesn't have to be like this. Furthermore, this 'groundswell' of people moving out the door has always been there, it's just that being the only employer in this field in Australia, there is nowhere else to go except overseas- something that is not everyone's cup of tea. Many, many guys weigh up the prospect of leaving and doing something else, but find themselves trapped by the money. That is human nature. It's not 'indispensability syndrome', or low self esteem. It's also a source of a great many of the ills at AsA- the management (and the rest of the organisation) know they have the practitioners by the balls. Most guys love the job, hate the contemptuous way they are treated, having simply a choice to grin and bear it or leave and earn a lot less money- not very popular with wives/husbands/families- or, head off overseas- also not very popular with wives/husbands/families. So, effectively, there can never be a stampede of change, as you describe. Nothing to temper the lunacy that goes on in management except the stuff that is measurable to the outside world- and even that is a distortion (see the reduction in TIBA- then ask any controller why that is?).

Where are my "indispensability" pills?

Plazbot

11th Jun 2012, 19:41

As an ATC, I think Creampuff actually nailed it.

Creampuff

12th Jun 2012, 02:40

Yes, please don’t execute the messenger folks.

I don’t have ‘contempt for dedication’, thorn bird. I have nothing but admiration and gratitude for the work of ATC.

However, what do you think ‘know-nothing MBA qualified managers’ (to borrow a phrase from Sunfish) think about ‘dedicated’ employees. What a normal person sees as ‘dedication’, the ‘know-nothing MBA qualified manager’ sees as ‘patsy’.Everybody involved is aware something is very wrong- quantifiably wrongEverybody? Really?

If the average punter was aware and cared, there’d be pressure for governments to change things.It's also a source of a great many of the ills at AsA- the management (and the rest of the organisation) know they have the practitioners by the balls. Most guys love the job, hate the contemptuous way they are treated, having simply a choice to grin and bear it or leave and earn a lot less money- not very popular with wives/husbands/families- or, head off overseas- also not very popular with wives/husbands/families..So if we described that mindset to a psychiatrist, what do you think her prognosis would be?

blackhand

12th Jun 2012, 02:51

So if we described that mindset to a psychiatrist, what do you think her prognosis would be? mmmm not sure about her diagnosis/prognosis, but mine would be something about courage of your convictions or lack there of.

ferris

12th Jun 2012, 03:01

Some of us do have the courage of our convictions.
However, having the courage of your conviction may mean staying on and trying to do the right thing from the inside. Furthermore, for most people I am sure that the practical reality is that it's just a job and an area where your convictions don't take primacy in life .

That doesn't make what is going on right. Silence is not consent.
As to the psychology - pretty sure that it's already been equated to long-term prisoners.

blackhand

12th Jun 2012, 03:29

Some of us do have the courage of our convictions.Our capitalist society depends on the workers adopting the "ethic" of the "ruling class". When the workers' ethic or conviction is in conflict with the ruling class the workers' ethic has to give way or else the whole edifice will collapse.

kimwestt

12th Jun 2012, 05:31

Would that be the Tony Mathews of the RFDS?
One hopes that his allegiance towards commonsense will prevail, but I feel sure that will be sorely tested.
As for the others - "Quid lucrum istic mihi est."
The more things change, . . . . . .:suspect:

Jack Ranga

12th Jun 2012, 08:42

Yep, gotta lawyer up cos they know how aviation is done :D

hiway, I don't think I can give you an assessment eloquent enough on the technology pipeline without putting myself 'in it.' There's a lot of good in ASA spoilt by one or two that have the power to spoil it unfortunately.

Courage of convictions could mean a whole lot of things couldn't it? You don't have to up and leave an organisation because you think management has lost it's way.

Kharon

12th Jun 2012, 20:41

Gordon's view (http://www.hark.com/clips/qvqrzxnqdq-dont-suppose-you-want-a-taste)

The man has a point. :ugh:

Groaner

14th Jun 2012, 00:35

Violent air traffic controllers threaten passenger safety | Global Travel Media (http://www.eglobaltravelmedia.com.au/airline/violent-air-traffic-controllers-threaten-passenger-safety.html)

Workplace outbursts, drinking, threats and other incidents among air traffic controllers have implications for passenger safety, whistleblowers fear.

Queensland’s Sunday Mail published at the weekend details of documents released under Freedom of Information laws, which it said had disclosed “65 critical cases of misconduct since June 2010 – 16 against air traffic controllers”.

Independent senator Nick Xenophon called Air Services Australia was a deeply dysfunctional organisation responsible for safety in Australia’s sky.

Serious cases exposed by the paper included:

An traffic controller who swore and threw a mug down a control tower stairwell after seeing the Christmas roster.
Another controller sent to counselling after threatening violence against a fellow worker.
A head-office worker sacked after the reasons why he took leave became clear. He took leave to go to jail on three counts of indecency – and he was facing a further 19 criminal charges.
A worker forced to apologise to the general manager of safety and to retract inappropriate comments after sending him an unseemly email.
A rescue worker who had been seen drinking alcohol during his lunch break resigned in April 2011 after refusing to take a breath test.
A worker was found to be sleeping on the job numerous times.
The Air Transport Safety Bureau has ordered a review of Air Services Australia after too many close calls in the air. The ATSB confirmed that staff culture was a main factor being investigated.

Written by : William Sykes

le Pingouin

14th Jun 2012, 02:59

Is it CA negotiation time already?

ferris

14th Jun 2012, 07:34

Recall the name of this thread.

Management failure. BTW- did anyone check to see if TFN was in the clink? 'Head-office worker'- what an interesting oxymoron!

Kharon

14th Jun 2012, 21:12

ferris - Management failure. This may have been identified as a partial cause of the clearly deep problems within the organisation, but from a total safety perspective things need to be examined independently of Govt. in depth, otherwise there will just be a couple of scapegoats sacrificed on the altar of the demi god Cuveritup.

Step back and think for a moment of the ATC guy handling your departure or arrival at a busy terminal as a 'member' of the flight crew, things take on a different slant. I wouldn't want anyone with problems like this on the flight deck, but there they are on COM 1. Here is an essential team member stuck in a pressure cooker, badly managed, frustrated, angry, half asleep, denied options and probably under the pump at home due to overtime forcing another cancelled attendance at #2 son's birthday party.

As a Captain – I am responsible for the safety of the aircraft and must rely heavily on many other folk to get from A – B in one piece. ATC are IMO, one of the essential safety measures relied upon; and, I for one would like to think that the voice on COM 1 is at least partially sane, well rested, properly trained and not likely to pop a circuit breaker at a critical time.

Is this an issue for pilots ?; is it part of the complete mess our total air safety system is in ? – you betcha.

Robbovic

18th Jun 2012, 08:56

More premature shiny suit backslapping over the weekend before another project goes belly up. Climate of fear engendered by TFN takes another scalp. His legacy lives on.

Definition of insanity : doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

ER_BN

19th Jun 2012, 10:39

Okay Robbovic,

You have us all in anticipation.

Which project???

Whose scalp???

Can't be many GMs left given the number Greg got rid of???

tontinewarrior

19th Jun 2012, 10:52

I believe they are referring to the transition to the new Broome Tower and the INTAS project.
Lasted around 24 hours, major problems and then a rollback (enhancement) to the old tower.
Awaiting a press release about robust safety procedures and how this latest debacle again emphasises ASAs committment to the travelling public.
You can't polish it, but you can roll it in glitter.

Hempy

19th Jun 2012, 13:44

Define 'major problem' :}:ouch:

Robbovic

20th Jun 2012, 10:46

On the button with the project involved. PIR will be interesting - shortcut city.
Probably the wrong word, scalp. Although someone will probably go tits up from somewhere, more likely in PD.
Was more referring to the systemic problem with the organisational obsession with schedule over quality, especially first of type as in this case.
"Major problem" as in "dangerous" and "rooted" and "what the hell just happened?" "Major" as in "how the heck do we fix this?"

Sarcs

26th Jun 2012, 05:56

Anyone of you ATCers know about this 'BOS' event...or is it just another storm in a teacup??:cool:

Tiger A320, VIP jet get too close near Melbourne Airport | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/06/22/tiger-a320-vip-global-express-get-too-close-to-each-other-near-melbourne-airport/)

Investigation: AO-2012-085 - Breakdown of Separation - Airbus A320-232, VH-VNC, and Bombarder, BD-700, N70PS, 20 km NW of Melbourne Airport, Victoria, 20 June 2012 (http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2012/aair/ao-2012-085.aspx)

err.....broken record.....:ugh:

Two mid-air misses at Melbourne in two days being examined | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/06/26/qantas-737-regional-turboprop-get-too-close-in-2nd-melbourne-airport-incident-in-two-days/)

Investigation: AO-2012-087 - Breakdown of separation - Boeing 737-438, VH-TJS / Fairchild SA227, VH-MYI, 28 km E Melbourne Airport, VIC, 21 June 2012 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2012/aair/ao-2012-087.aspx)

Hempy

26th Jun 2012, 07:26

Sarcs,

I doubt you will get any ATC's to comment on BOS, regardless of the circumstances...there, but for the grace of God...

Sarcs

26th Jun 2012, 07:38

Hempy after having a repeat read of this thread, although very educational and a must read for all knuckle draggers, I can well understand why!:{

Sounds like something has to give soon...as GD says TICK TOCK!:ugh:

Pavement

26th Jun 2012, 08:05

Sarcs

When youve been in ATC for a while you know that youre only one sleepless night or arguement with the wife from having a really bad day. Thats why we dont get judgemental until the facts are known.

There may be systemic issues at play or it may just be a slip. These may even have some pilot error component. Airservices, for all its failings, does (IMHO) internal investigations pretty well.

Not been an apologist just being a realist.

TWOTBAGS

26th Jun 2012, 08:45

Its not only ATC....

Applied in February for an AirServices decision......
Asked 4 months later whats up.

Was told be said AsA person, we are understaffed and have not attended to your request, only to be told that my request is only relevant for pilots & air traffic controllers anyway.....WTF (:mad:) when I voice my displeasure..... they hung up. Thats AsA customer service for you.:confused:

Went into overdrive and climbed the tree of knowledge....

Only to be told today by said AsA person boss that they have not got the manpower to attend to the request, they have not even looked at the paperwork, it will be a minimum 6 months before any action and they have no answer.....

No Answer
No Excuse
No Apology

Guaranteed when my next lot of airways charges come and I say sorry I am understaffed and have not looked into yet, and wont for another 6 months they will be on my case, faster than a fat man on a ham sandwich, with legal threats from $1000 p/h solicitors.

Yet they can charge the arse out of operators for services....$800,000,000+ in turnover & make multimillion dollar profits.

Airspace Closures, TIBA's and cant get the paperwork done...... but as the lady said, thats only something pilots and air traffic controllers use.

WOFTAM :ugh:

alphacentauri

26th Jun 2012, 10:37

No Excuse

...they have not got the manpower to attend to the request...

Believe it or not....this is a big issue with a lot of sections, including mine, in AsA. We just can't get the people, or we are told we don't need anymore. At the moment we have a 12-18 month turn around on requests...we just can't do it any quicker.

Not acceptable I know....but that's the current state of play.

Out of interest, what is it you are trying to get an answer for?

Alpha

Kharon

26th Jun 2012, 11:52

IB says - I'm short on character - I ask you; guys (yes and guyettes) tell me truth - am I short??.

ACT - Out of interest, what is it you are trying to get an answer for?.

Kharon - ATC are (IMO), one of the essential safety measures relied upon; and, I for one would like to think that the voice on COM 1 is at least partially sane, well rested, properly trained and not likely to pop a circuit breaker at a critical time.PS. I really need to know this

Slugfest

21st Aug 2012, 10:18

The way this reads, TFN wrote it up himself....too bad they are not taking the current METRON performance data and citing that... Read on if you can stomach it!:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

Metron Aviation Appoints Greg Russell as Executive Aviation Advisor

Dulles, Virginia - August 20, 2012 - Metron Aviation, a subsidiary of Airbus Americas and member of the Airbus ProSky Alliance, is pleased to announce the appointment of Greg Russell as Executive Aviation Advisor for the Asia Pacific region. Mr. Russell joins Metron Aviation from Airservices Australia where he was Chief Executive Officer and possesses over 30 years of aviation experience in developing strategies and applying technologies to transform the performance of air transportation systems.

Mr. Russell is a recognized Air Traffic Management (ATM) and Collaborative Decision Making (CDM) visionary who spearheaded Airservices Australia's initiatives to improve air traffic efficiency and environmental performance. During Mr. Russell's tenure, Airservices positioned themselves as a world leader in the utilization of cutting-edge technology to enable real-time collaboration among airline, airport and Air Navigation Service Provider (ANSP) operations. His key programs have produced dramatic, measurable benefits for Australia's aviation stakeholders, improving flight times, lowering delays and decreasing congestion, all while reducing emissions and fuel burn. Until recently he was Vice Chair of the Civil Air Navigation Service Organisation (CANSO) and Chair of the CANSO Asia Pacific CEO Committee.

Prior to Airservices Australia, Mr. Russell served as Director of Aviation at Sydney Airport and Chief Operating Officer at Athens International Airport. In both of these roles he was responsible for the successful delivery of airport operations during the 2000 and 2004 Olympic Games. Mr. Russell also served as the General Manager at Hazelton Airlines and held a range of management positions in public companies.

"Greg has a tremendous track record of leadership in the aviation industry, and has long extolled the benefits of collaboration to increase efficiency, optimize operations and bring direct savings to all aviation stakeholders," said Jim Gaughan, Chief Executive Officer, Metron Aviation. "Metron Aviation is honored to have such a leading visionary join the organization, and our customers will benefit greatly from his firsthand experience with a collaborative traffic-flow management system that can transform performance today."

"Having worked closely with Metron Aviation during the deployment of Metron Harmony in Australia, I developed a great respect for the work they do, the quality of their people and their commitment to their customers' success," said Greg Russell. "Metron Aviation pioneered the field of traffic flow management, and I am honored to help share with our industry what this company has developed - and how this technology can transform the efficiency, economic and environmental performance of systems at ANSPs, airlines and airports."

ABOUT METRON AVIATION
Founded in 1995, Metron Aviation, a subsidiary of Airbus Americas and member of the Airbus ProSky Alliance, pioneered the advancement of Air Traffic Flow Management (ATFM), working with the FAA to develop the industry's first Collaborative Decision Making (CDM) platform for optimizing system-wide traffic flow. Metron Aviation provides concept engineering, advanced research, software development, traffic flow management, surface operations management, airspace design and environmental analysis solutions to the global aviation industry. Metron Aviation fuses advanced science and mathematics with unparalleled subject-matter expertise to turn groundbreaking Air Traffic Management (ATM) research concepts into next-generation operational capabilities. Metron Harmony, Metron Aviation's commercial product, provides integrated ATFM and CDM capabilities for the world's leading Air Navigation Service Providers (ANSPs), airlines and airports. Metron Aviation customers include the FAA, NAV CANADA, NASA, ATNS, FedEx, Air Canada, Memphis International Airport, Delta Air Lines, Southwest Airlines, American Airlines, Airservices Australia and many more. For more information, please visit

KRUSTY 34

21st Aug 2012, 11:56

You're right.

I shouldn't have read it! :yuk::yuk::yuk:

gobbledock

22nd Aug 2012, 00:03

Oh me oh my. Yum yum that Airservice trough was very full!!

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/aguirre_mar/aguirre_mar0902/aguirre_mar090200078/4379813-small-pig-eats-from-trough.jpg

airspace alpha

12th Sep 2012, 06:21

this media release from Minister Albanese. An interesting choice don't you agree?

One of the most senior officers in the Australian Defence Force has been appointed as the new CEO of Airservices Australia.
“I am delighted to announce the appointment of Air Vice-Marshal Margaret Staib who brings over three decades of military experience in aviation, logistics and procurement management to this position,” Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Anthony Albanese said.
“As Commander Joint Logistics, Air Vice-Marshal Staib planned, coordinated and delivered logistics support for Australian Defence Force operations and exercises overseas and in our own backyard. This includes everything from food resupply to troop movements for our 77,000 personnel serving domestically and overseas.”
Air Vice-Marshal Staib also played a key role in developing and implementing the $2.4 billion logistics reform program—a major initiative of the 2009 Defence White Paper.
A posting to the United States Air Force at the Pentagon furthered her experience in logistics and procurement. For her first-rate work on logistics transformation, Air Vice-Marshal Staib was awarded the United States Meritorious Service Medal.
In January 2009, Air Vice-Marshal Staib was appointed as a Member in the Military Division of the Order of Australia.
“Air Vice-Marshal Staib’s appointment comes at the right time for Airservices Australia with the organisation delivering a five-year, $1 billion capital expenditure program, which is replacing and upgrading vital air traffic infrastructure, and improving aerodrome rescue and firefighting services,” Mr Albanese said.
Air Vice-Marshal Staib will take up her position on 15 October this year.
The Chair of Airservices Australia, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston (Ret’d), welcomed the appointment of Air Vice-Marshal Staib.
“Ms Staib has risen to the rank of Air-Vice Marshal over a 30-year career in the military,” Air Chief Marshal Houston (Ret’d) said.
“It was the unanimous view of the selection panel that Air Vice-Marshal Staib has the background and experience to excel as the CEO of Airservices Australia.
“The Board and I look forward to working with Air Vice-Marshal Staib to take Airservices Australia forward to achieve our organisational goals.”
Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston (Ret’d) thanked Mr Andrew Clark for his work as Acting CEO of Airservices Australia.
“Mr Clark took up the role of Acting CEO in May this year. The Board and I wish to sincerely thank Mr Clark for his management of Airservices Australia over this time,” Air Chief Marshal Houston (Ret’d) said.
Airservices Australia is a wholly government-owned statutory authority which manages around 11 per cent of the world’s airspace through which more than three million flights carrying 75 million passengers travel each year.
As well as providing air-traffic control services, the organisation also delivers rescue and fire fighting services at the nation's major passenger airports.

Nautilus Blue

12th Sep 2012, 08:48

No Harvard MBA, no experience running a profit at all costs business, I'd say things are looking up.

amos2

12th Sep 2012, 10:00

...and no airline experience!!

ER_BN

12th Sep 2012, 10:59

Wow,

A RAAF takeover.

Angus and now Margaret.

The recently upgraded leather deck chairs on the bridge boys club by Cap'n Russell now don't look all that inviting when there will be a lot of "yes, Ma'am", "of course Ma'am" etc.

Naturally, the best will be the stammering "...er, I don't know Ma'am..." when asked by new Capn Staib..."Okay, which one of you drove this ship into the iceberg pack??"

Hmmm maybe the so called departure lounge for EGMs has just been fitted with a plank...so who will walk it first??? Whilst Admiral Houston contemplates the more acceptable news item of EGMs overboard rather than children.

Gosh, and we thought Greg Russell got rid of a lot of executive managers!

Wonder if there are any jobs in Nauru or PNG for the soon to be departed boys!

RATpin

12th Sep 2012, 11:24

As a former East European Colleague used to say, "EXPERTS".
Did anybody seriously expect a different outcome with the current clowns in charge.

Hempy

12th Sep 2012, 11:37

ER_BN, it's not just EGM's (when did they get the 'E' appended by the way?), there are plenty of well placed sycophants who were (are) more than willing to do the dirty work at their masters behest, and sometimes even off their own bat. I guess they have the Nuremberg defence to fall back on though (although that doesn't look too sound if the recent FC issues are anything to go by....)

Pavement

12th Sep 2012, 12:24

Lets hope that the EGM who told his buddy "if I dont get the CEO job I will resign" keeps his word.

gobbledock

12th Sep 2012, 18:39

Well well, more bureaucrats to steer the ship hey? More fancy titles such as
Air Vice-Marshal, big :mad: deal....Political spin doctors with a history of running Defence programs that have in themselves wasted billions of taxpayers dollars. You may as well hire Ronald McDonald or Elton John as they are all the same. A bunch of fancy titles and an Order of Australia means jack****. It doesn't make them Air Service experienced by a long shot.

This decision once again reflects the governments inabilty to hire the right person to turn air safety around. Jobs for the boys, mates rates and government lackies sitting in the Ministers pocket is the order of the day yet again.

Shot Nancy

13th Sep 2012, 02:58

If The Chair of Airservices Australia, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston (Ret’d) cannot restore order then I believe no one can.
I just hope that order can return in an acceptable time frame.

Jack Ranga

13th Sep 2012, 03:26

Correct me if I'm wrong but there is a strict 'chain of command' is there not in the military?

It would be frowned upon for a private to 'skip' a level of command when reporting anything, whether it be a better way of doing things, things that are going wrong at his/her level etc?

If she is relying on the level below her for business reports, she's in for a whole world of pain. Personally, when the last CEO presented himself to the troops I couldn't stand being in the same room as him. I couldn't stand the sight of the useless waste of space.

Maybe her first job is to get to the bottom of SDE, how much it has cost, (industry had better brace itself) what 'benefits' it has presented (none, in fact the way we are doing things is far worse from a service delivery perspective) if it was to isolate costs so that the god almighty Qantas management could only pay for the service they receive and not subsidise lower level traffic, it has been an abject failure.

Her second job is analyse FRMS2 and get an answer as to how any 'study' can come up with the illogical, fatigue inducing and just plain stupid rostering rules it comes up with. It is a load of bull****, has caused greater fatigue and has only succeeded in pissing the staff off, made shift swaps harder and caused even more disruption to people's family life.

Her third job is make sure that nothing EVER, EVER happens in the organisation like what occurred in the Training College. Stupid training experiments that were devised by hopelessly unqualified managers.

Her fourth job is clean out the garbage yes man empires that have been created and ask questions as to why there has been an explosion in admin staff numbers but a drop in ATC numbers 'CORE BUSINESS' ring any bells??

The list goes on...................

welcome_stranger

13th Sep 2012, 05:15

Sounds like she was a Warehouse Manager

For the ATCs - you'll all get a NATO stock number and be palletised for on shipment to the operational area for dispersement via the correct channels, that's so long as the request for stores has been done correctly and signed off by the officer commanding or senior NCO in charge of perishable items

flightfocus

13th Sep 2012, 09:28

This appointment is a real concern!

A chain of ex blue suits from top to bottom. The only one with any form worth respecting is Houston.

Some of the ugliest, most disruptive and confrontational management is coming from ex RAAF Managers - ask any one who work in BN centre. These people, probably through no fault of their own, only know how to say yes. As they were a problem under the old guard, I foresee that the problems may only get worse.

All the 'old boys' will be at home spit polishing their garb hoping ASA will whip out a salute your ALM TLI :mad:

This might be a case of better the devil you know/knew :uhoh:

hiwaytohell

13th Sep 2012, 21:04

The only one with any form worth respecting is Houston.

Past tense!!! This appointment has put a pretty big dent in that respect!

trashie

14th Sep 2012, 01:47

How quick are we to judge!!!:ugh:

hiwaytohell

14th Sep 2012, 02:29

If it looks like dog poo and smells like dog poo, you don't need to taste it to confirm the assumption.

The same goes for people in Government and Government Corporations about appointing their mates to plum jobs (or any job for that matter).

Once AVM Staib became a candidate her relationship with Houston should have precluded Houston being involved in the subsequent selection process, in any way... anything less is corrupt behaviour!

... rose coloured Ray Bans are going back in the box!!!

trashie

14th Sep 2012, 02:42

Was Angus involved in the selection process?? Do you know this for a fact!!!

hiwaytohell

14th Sep 2012, 04:06

Yes he was and yes I know for a fact!

Baileys

14th Sep 2012, 06:03

It wouldn't matter who the new CEO was - the response would still be just like this. All ATC's know that they themselves would make better CEO's.

hiwaytohell

14th Sep 2012, 07:10

Sorry I disagree. Most of my ATC mates know they are not CEOs nor want to be. But they are smart enough to recognise what is required in a leader.

My comments are not about the person, for all I know she maybe terrific. But about the process... we deserve better than appointments to public corporation based upon being part of the "club"... this is also known as corrupt.

sunnySA

14th Sep 2012, 08:14

All ATC's know that they themselves would make better CEO's. Wow, some statement.

An "equipo" turned CEO, who'd have thought...

kiwi chick

14th Sep 2012, 11:09

Wow.

I've found this whole converstation very interesting, but slightly alarming given that I'm starting with ASA on Monday as an ATC Trainee. :eek:

*rushes to fill out McDonalds application*

But of course, I'm in no position to comment about ASA, just sit back and watch this thread with interest.

What happened at the Training College, may I ask? (I may have missed that bit)

Kiwi

Lookleft

14th Sep 2012, 12:17

M-G Cosgrove was a respected military leader and I was impressed with his book and his views on leadership. Then he took a position on the board at qantas and all that talk about leadership and looking after your troops is subservient to the corporate point of view.

Jack Ranga

14th Sep 2012, 12:42

Reading between the lines: my job is fairly secure, but everyone will hate me and I won't get holidays for the next 6 years.

You're reading too much between the lines. Your job is secure if you can actually do the job........don't fcuk up and you'll keep it.

Hate you? WTF? :cool: There is no hate in the rank and file.

And you WONT get the holidays you are entitled to every year. If you are hoping to get school hols, christmas, easter, spring carnival off, better start looking for another job.

Core & Mature = weasel words bullish!t, the reason for the above paragraph.

What happened at the training college would have had any manager who presided over it in the senate explaining their actions.............maybe that will happen?

kiwi chick

14th Sep 2012, 13:01

Jack, I should clarify - I was being tongue-in-cheek.

What I think I am hearing is:

Don't plan a big OE ;)
Get decisions in writing

Would that be fair advice to take from this thread?

Thanks,
KC

Plazbot

14th Sep 2012, 14:24

Get decisions in writing

Not worth a pinch of ****. They will decide that the manager either did not have the authority to make the promise or that the business requirements of Airservices have changed and that paper may as well be in the bin.

There is lots of advice to take from this thread but as I see you have already started with AsA, the horse has bolted on that one.

tontinewarrior

14th Sep 2012, 22:43

For AVM Staibs sake, I hope she doesn't come in with the misconception, like a lot of the ex-Blue shirts have, that in the civilian world the concept of you salute the uniform not the individual is not practiced.
We have people elevated to positions of authority by dint of their previous RAAF status who believe that respect is now a given. That it doesn't matter what actions they take that we are still required to respect the uniform.
AVM Staib hopefully has been made aware that the uniform she is about to put on is severely tarnished and its last wearer left early for a reason.
She better realise she will have a hard time getting that uniform saluted and will have to take immediate action to sanitise her chain of command. I don't envy her this task. She is starting off way behind the eight ball with a workforce of ATCs who are disillusioned, dispirited and definitely disengaged.
She might want to have a close look at the Staff Survey and ask why only 11% of the 60% of ATCs (less than 7%) who participated said they had faith in senior management.

dingle dongle

14th Sep 2012, 23:38

It's a pretend business with pretend management.
How can you call a service that is required by law, to be used by only one group a business?
These people who are chosen by their mates, have proven over the last ten years to know little about ATC.
They know about climbing the slippery pole of management, most of which doesn't apply to whatever industry they flutter from and to. They use positive words for their stuffups in their CVs that the next employer is really impressed by, and buggeroff before having to face the music for the mess ATC is in and the troops have to find a way of fixing.

Kiwi Chick! expect your training to be like a catepiller.Mad rush with only a small window of time available, then a soul destroying wait while your turn comes up for training.
It will get worse as Canberra management takes control of your rostering in your training and the delays increase.
The troops you will deal with and talk to, care about you, but you will be just regarded as 'product' or a faceless number to the experts who sit in the gilded tower, controlling your training.

Sosij Sizzl

15th Sep 2012, 03:00

Well I, for one, welcome our new trained killer overlords.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du0d8QxlSYk

gobbledock

26th Sep 2012, 02:58

If The Chair of Airservices Australia, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston (Ret’d) cannot restore order then I believe no one can.Hate to dissapoint you but he isn't there to return order. He is there to patch over the issues and use his decades of bureaucratic spinning to paint a picture of competency and improvement at ASA so as to protect the Ministers ass. That is his job folks, nothing more than a Ministers protective guard. Those expecting or wanting miracles had better cushion themselves for the hard landing.

Once AVM Staib became a candidate her relationship with Houston should have precluded Houston being involved in the subsequent selection process, in any way... anything less is corrupt behaviour! Agh yes, his first task was to employee a mate (or is it matey for a female?) Nothing changes really does it?

M-G Cosgrove was a respected military leader and I was impressed with his book and his views on leadership. Then he took a position on the board at qantas and all that talk about leadership and looking after your troops is subservient to the corporate point of view.
Correct. Lots of robust talk by Cosi but the reality is that money talks and takes precedence over loyalty, his actions show 'who the real man is'. The hiring of Houston and Staib is no different, they are there for the money, not to make some almighty changes to a clapped out ASA. I hope you boys and girls are prepared for the next round of bureaucratic dribble that will flow from this team? All these miltary stalwarts are nothing short of easter eggs - crack them open and there is nothing inside!

It's a pretend business with pretend management.How can you call a service that is required by law, to be used by only one group a business?These people who are chosen by their mates, have proven over the last ten years to know little about ATC.They know about climbing the slippery pole of management, most of which doesn't apply to whatever industry they flutter from and to. They use positive words for their stuffups in their CVs that the next employer is really impressed by, and buggeroff before having to face the music for the mess ATC is in and the troops have to find a way of fixing.Looks to me like somebody has copied and pasted from the incumbents CV's? This is exactly what happens. Plum government jobs for footstools who made a career of protecting Ministers and protecting themselves. Smoke n mirror team players who are only out to feed from the trough.

Australia has certainly structured ASA, CASA and ATSB to run by diplomats, bureaucrats, government whips, spin doctors and peddlers of pony pooh.

This is how I describe our government funded aviation agencies:
http://www.sheilasguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Horse-manure-courtesy-markyweiss-at-Flickr-CC.jpg

theheadmaster

26th Sep 2012, 03:15

Gobbledock, what a load of rubbish. If you think Houston has made his reputation by saving ministers' arses, you have no knowledge of history or the measure of the man in question.

Houston stood against the Prime Minister and the Chief of Defence Force (who did owe the PM a personal political favour) during the children overboard affair. He also produced a recommendation in his asylum seeker report that was effectively opposed to the government position and had government accepting many of the policies put in place by the Howard government. I believe it was because of the known integrity of Houston that the government was able to change its policy.

I have personally worked for Houston and found him to be open to reflect on his own views when presented with a good argument and that he acted with integrity when others in his position were merely interested in furthering their own career.

gobbledock

26th Sep 2012, 03:51

Headmaster, If all you say is true, then why would the current Minister who is a firm fan of spin, evasion, smoke n mirror acts, carpet sweeping and other poiticaly accepted methods of operation hire such a 'top gun', such a good guy who will inevitably untagle all the mess, pony pooh and incompetence that has been taking place beneath the Ministers nose which would then make said Minister look even more foolish??

Loved his acting work during the Seaview saga........

ER_BN

26th Sep 2012, 11:27

Well, we are going to find out soon enough, as to whether the Ango and Margie show is as good as some would have us beleve....as the amount of poo cleaning will be a Herculean task as the AsA stables get flushed....if it ever happens.

Might be too late as many in the know are really worried about BN Centre.

Rumour has it that the Brisbane controllers were ready to down headsets after one of their colleagues was recalled from rec leave and then sacked on the spot.

Could be another FED court case coming yet again??

Rumours also abound that staff rec leave about to be cancelled.

Maybe 2 of the EGMs will be donning headsets again???

gobbledock

27th Sep 2012, 01:37

Maybe 2 of the EGMs will be donning headsets again???
Yeah right. They would have forgotten how to plug them in. Most likely they will be donning special velcro suits complete with built in hoovering device to enable them to keep gorging from their endless troughs!

rotorblades

27th Sep 2012, 13:44

I would live to say I can see things changing with AVM in charge, but my gut says things will stay the same.

I hope she knows what's she's getting into where the managers-once-removed hate the staff.

It's like being 9 years old again sometimes, with line managers running (literally) downstairs to tell daddy.
It's so childish I have to laugh sometimes

alphacentauri

27th Sep 2012, 22:05

rotorblades....spot on.

The AWB is turning into a huge s**t storm at the moment. Most of the managers are acting like pork chops, and its all coming from the EGM/GM level.

Corporate values are only relevant from the bottom up and seem to become irrelelvant at about 3 rd level management. After that, its school yard rules.

Ex FSO GRIFFO

28th Sep 2012, 01:51

Re -
' Rumour has it that the Brisbane controllers were ready to down headsets after one of their colleagues was recalled from rec leave and then sacked on the spot.'

Care to elaborate???....
Why did they not ?
Did the Union take any action?
What is the 'Status Quo'?

gobbledock

28th Sep 2012, 02:23

Most of the managers are acting like pork chops, and its all coming from the EGM/GM level.
Corporate values are only relevant from the bottom up and seem to become irrelelvant at about 3 rd level management. After that, its school yard rules.
Thats because in most large organisations or government agencies 3 rd level management (or is it turd level ) are normally brown nosers, dobbers and EGM/GM footstools. They usually consist of mates or suckholes brought in from the outside, or they are mates and suckholes promoted from within. They love to sh#t on their underlings but then run scared and crying to upper management when they get bagged out or you stand up to them. They like to dish it out but become spinelss nancy boys when they are stood up to or confronted. There running and dobbing to EGM/GM's is part of their job PD and they do so in the hope of being promoted higher up the greasy pole. They live in a different world and are constantly stimulated and tantelized by the smell of the goodies emanating from the trough in which they so desperately seek to dine. They laugh at Executives jokes, nod their heads in agreement at every bit of verbal pony pooh that dribbles from the Execs mouths, they drink with them and play golf with them, occasionally even licking the sweat off their backs. They are not team players, loyal or modest.

That is your middle management structure.....
http://www.nonfictiongaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fable_III_human_foot_stool.jpg

Kharon

4th Oct 2012, 22:43

DrPhil - Any of our Brisbane ATC friends care to explain what is going on here?

737 – Lost. (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/10/04/virgin-australia-737-800-lost-by-air-traffic-control-for-30-minutes/)

Rather than repeat the whole long, sorry saga; some of the answers you seek may be found between pages 1 to 12. I expect questions will be taken on notice (again) and the answers will some time appear as the well polished, totally incomprehensible pony pooh we have come to know and expect.

Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee. Doone.

Sarcs

4th Oct 2012, 23:26

Kharon said: I expect questions will be taken on notice (again) and the answers will some time appear as the well polished, totally incomprehensible pony pooh we have come to know and expect.

You mean like the following where ASA don't even attempt to "polish the turd" or in fact answer the bloody question....
Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2011
Infrastructure and Transport
Question no.: 137
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: (AA) Airservices Australia
Topic: Airservices Australia Executives
Proof Hansard Page/s: 64 (26/05/2011)
Senator Xenophon asked:

Senator XENOPHON: As to information I have had from people within your
organisation—and, again, I want to put this fairly and carefully to you—how many senior executives have left the organisation in the last five years? I have been told there have been some 12 or 13 senior executives who have left.

Mr Russell: It is in that order, yes.

Senator XENOPHON: Again, I am happy to take this on notice, but can you advise whether there were monetary settlements in terms of those people leaving the organisation?

Mr Russell: Yes, there were.

Senator XENOPHON: Could I get details in relation to that? Did those settlements include any confidentiality agreements?

Mr Russell: It is usual in these circumstances for a deed to be produced. I can provide you with some further information on that issue.

Senator XENOPHON: I understand that you have also lost another senior executive just this week; is that right?

Mr Russell: Yes.

Senator XENOPHON: This person was specifically hired to lead a much publicised project to harmonise air traffic control with your RAAF colleagues; is that right?

Mr Russell: Yes.

Senator XENOPHON: That would be subject to a confidentiality agreement as well?

Mr Russell: I would imagine so, yes.

Senator XENOPHON: But you will be able to give us an idea of the sort of money that was spent?

Mr Russell: I will take that on notice.

Answer:
Airservices Australia has advised for the period 1 July 2006 to 30 June 2011, nine senior executives left Airservices and each was paid their entitlement under the terms and conditions of their employment contract.

All Airservices employees, including senior executives, are subject to confidentiality provisions which apply post employment.

Or this where they just defer to HR Executive Memo 101, which basically says..."Look what we're doing to engage with our number one asset, our staff!"::yuk::yuk:
Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2011
Infrastructure and Transport
Question no.: 139
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: (AA) Airservices Australia
Topic: Airservices Australia Just Culture
Proof Hansard Page/s: 65-66 (26/05/2011)
Senator Xenophon asked:

Senator XENOPHON: I have a couple more questions. I would be grateful if I could get more information on notice about that project. The information I have had from within air traffic control is that they do not feel comfortable of a just culture in reporting safety concerns. How does the just culture operate within Airservices Australia, especially in air traffic control? The information that I have had, in quite explicit terms, is that they are worried about retribution if they speak out on issues. That is one person’s perception. How do you deal with that perception so that people do not feel reluctant or reticent to come forward
with concerns?

Mr Russell: In a safety critical organisation like this it is fundamental that you have a workable just culture well and truly entrenched. Unlike some other of our counterparts in other parts of the world I am very confident that that system works very well. There is never a question of retribution, of people putting up their hand and saying, ‘There is an issue that has occurred.’ Every day in our organisation we review the incidents that have been recorded.

I sit in on those meetings. We review incidents that have been recorded in Australian airspace, by our own staff largely, and sometimes we follow things up. I think it is by that process that you learn how to improve how you operate and improve the safety of the air traffic system.

Senator XENOPHON: Could you provide details of the protocols and the information given to staff about just culture? That would be very useful. Finally, in relation to your earlier answer about a shortage of air traffic controllers, unless that is addressed do you see that causing flight delays in the short to medium future?

Mr Russell: We are working to ensure that that is not the case. As to the profile that we have looked at in terms of people who are likely to retire from our organisation over the next five years, initially we thought it was going to be fairly significant—over 30 per cent—across all of the disciplines in our organisation, because we have an aged workforce and there had not been a lot done about training new people. We have put a lot of work into that, firstly, and we
will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Equally we have found that—maybe it is a result of the GFC—people are just a little bit more reluctant to perhaps retire as early as they want to.

Answer:
Airservices Australia has advised the fundamentals of its Just Culture Policy were outlined in a memo to all staff on 12 January 2007 and have been reinforced by managers on a regular basis since that date.

Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2011
Infrastructure and Transport

In essence the policy states that enhanced safety and performance outcomes will be materially improved through the uninhibited reporting of all incidents and occurrences that compromise safety or performance within our operating environment. Staff are required to:

• Report all instances where safety or performance levels have been compromised;
• Support those who have either reported or have been directly involved in an
occurrence;
• Investigate with objectivity and confidentiality;
• Learn from each occurrence by indentifying contributory factors and implementing strategies to strengthen our systems and prevent recurrence; and
• Disseminate learning to provide a more informed and safer organisation.

More recently the Airservices’ Staff Code of Conduct and Fair Treatment Review System have been reviewed and workshops undertaken by the Executive and other senior managers.

All staff are about to take part in workshops about the organisation’s corporate values.

Kharon

5th Oct 2012, 06:51

Notice in the press that Nick X is calling for the CASA to investigate the ASA. Bwaaaww Haw Haw (in spades redoubled).

CASA (singing) "we have a lovely bunch of coconuts; there they a' standing in a row" etc.

"Now then who is going to assume the position, we have a choice today; the tried and tested bend over situation or, for those of you slightly more adventurous, the mystery position".

Looks of concern and much shuffling of feet in the back row.

"Come along boys and girls, you know it has to be done: who's going to take one for the team".

Just as Jones thought he had wriggled out of the back door a bag is placed over his head and, with a mighty, robust shove, the nutting is done.

"Yes Senator, we sorted out that little mess: tea, Oh yes please and perhaps one of those nice little biccies in the pot there". "Yes it was quite a tussle, but we are your most loyal most trustworthy watch dogs". http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif

Coconuts a'la CASA

Sarcs

5th Oct 2012, 07:33

"Come along boys and girls, you know it has to be done: who's going to take one for the team".

Kharon that's too easy just pick the spokeperson who issued this load of tripe..

A spokesperson said:
“We reported the incident to the ATSB in accordance with our well established policies and procedures.
The aircraft was never lost to Airservices air traffic controllers and continued to be displayed on air traffic control displays managing the airspace.
Additionally, our aviation system has multiple layers of safety mechanisms to ensure that serious incidents do not occur. Those defences include automated safety alerts in air traffic control systems and aircraft cockpits, and they all continued to operate.”

ABC coverage:
Probe launched after flight vanishes from radar - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-05/probe-launched-after-flight-vanishes-from-radar/4298466)

AV Herald:
Incident: Virgin Australia B738 near Brisbane on Sep 28th 2012, disappeared from radar (http://avherald.com/h?article=456f3f9c&opt=0)
Planetalking:
Lost flight of Virgin Australia jet illustrated | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/10/06/lost-flight-of-virgin-australia-jet-in-a-graphic-for-slow-learners/)
Hmm think there will be more than one pineapple doled out with this event.

Trouble is the regulator and bureau will probably make ASA the scapegoat to hide their own deficiencies...:yuk::yuk:

Kharon

6th Oct 2012, 21:46

Sarcs # 236 - Trouble is the regulator and bureau will probably make ASA the scapegoat to hide their own deficiencies.

The Minister is ultimately responsible, to get to him you need to get through Mr Teflon (Mrdak) before him you need to nail the CASA mob, who overlook (literally) the ASA. That's three silver bullets, one stake and a lot of garlic to kill each vampire. Then of course there is the protection of the Commonwealth legal, plus the dreaded CASA legal ghouls who can make the extremes of the law sing and dance as required.

Mission impossible???

gobbledock

8th Oct 2012, 11:09

The Minister is ultimately responsible,Better not tell him that. He thought the job only involved troughs, taxpayer perks, excessive salary and good times, not any measure of accountability!

to get to him you need to get through Mr Teflon (Mrdak) before him you need to nail the CASA mob, who overlook (literally) the ASA. You also need to get through the Ministers legions of footstools, whips, protectors, departmental directors, board members and additional layer after layer of human excrement funded by the taxpayer to protect just one inept individual.

That's three silver bullets, one stake and a lot of garlic to kill each vampire. You forgot to mention some voodoo hocus pocus as well.

Then of course there is the protection of the Commonwealth legal, plus the dreaded CASA legal ghouls who can make the extremes of the law sing and dance as required.Aagh yes, legal services so entrenched in protecting the guilty, avoiding blame, spinning facts, stretcthing truths and piling up the pony pooh that even Flyingfiend looks competent!

Indeed Kharon it is a sing along, even the ATSB Beaker knows how the tune goes!

http://www.andrewjensen.com/tmotj.jpg

Kharon

8th Oct 2012, 19:34

Rehearsals have started for the Estimates show; this was smuggled out from the AsA sound stage. It's no wonder they're so good at it. The work, the dedication, the artistry: and

The songs.

Sarcs

12th Oct 2012, 00:28

Rural & Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2012
Infrastructure and Transport
Question no.: 95
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: (CASA) Civil Aviation Safety Authority
Topic: Review of Airservices Australia
Proof Hansard Page/s: 52 (23/05/2012)

Senator XENOPHON: When will we know, do you think? I understand that you are undertaking a thorough review of Airservices Australia. What time frame are you looking at for an interim report or a final report?

Mr McCormick: We do not have a time line at this stage. When we do have one, I will give it to you as an answer on notice, if you like.

Answer:
The broad review of Airservices Australia operations under Civil Aviation Safety Regulation Part 172 – Air Traffic Service Providers commenced in March 2012 and is planned to be completed by September 2012.

I would have thought the latest series of BOS/LOSA events would have triggered a greater degree of urgency to produce this review, perhaps it will be produced at the Supplementary Estimates?:E

gobbledock

12th Oct 2012, 01:14

Mr McCormick: We do not have a time line at this stage. When we do have one, I will give it to you as an answer on notice, if you like.
Answer:
The broad review of Airservices Australia operations under Civil Aviation Safety Regulation Part 172 – Air Traffic Service Providers commenced in March 2012 and is planned to be completed by September 2012.
Yes, please do tell, where is the report? I believe Mr Skull would feel some serious heat creeping up through his collar at the moment. His PHD spin doctors who have assisted every CEO/Director for many years evade answers, stretch for time, dolly up the facts are starting to run out of bluff. These people should take it on notice that Senator X is on to your charades and smoke n mirror games. Clowns.

Time to insert a pineapple.
http://craziestgadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/vacu-vin-pineapple-slicer1.jpg

Kharon

15th Oct 2012, 10:08

About 1400 EST tomorrow, marks the end of an era. It will quietly happen in the Senate and your comments on this subject have made it happen. Brava Ppruners, well done!, well done indeed.

I will not bang on about the sad state this industry is in, or the governmental agencies which have; in no small way, contributed to it's near demise. My thoughts, hopes and care for an industry I love, have been shared with some great folk here; infinitum; et tedium (and probably, ad nauseam).

My hope is that just for a short while, we can all stick together and rid ourselves of the invidious, often incestuous, expensive, non productive,. parasite on this industry, which has become our Civil Aviation Safety Authority.

Tomorrow is a start, the 22nd gives a slim (60/40 against) chance – the rest boys and girls; is really - up to you.

Selah – sleep well (if you can).

PS, the old man says Cheers (then rasps "about bloody time": Kilkenny rules. OK).
With the indulgence of T28 –

Macbeth:
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.