How bad is Bristol's Runway 09?

[korrol]

In this month's report on the "bending" of a Boeing 767-324 at Bristol on 3 October 2010 the Air Accident Investigation Branch has cited the "profile" of Runway 09 as one of the three contributory causes of the incident.

The report says : - "Bristol Airport had an unusually high rate of hard landings, with evidence of seven hard landings in 2,855 arrivals there. At the AAIB’s suggestion, the data was re-examined for each runway rather than each airport. This revealed that there had been six hard landings in 709 arrivals on Runway 09 at Bristol, and only one on Runway 27; therefore one in 118 landings on Runway 09 had been classified as ‘hard’. Neither the operator, nor any regulatory body, had defined an acceptable maximum rate for hard landings on a given runway"

I have no idea what the "batting average" is for similarly hard-landings at other airports and runways but if Runway 09 at Bristol suffers from an unusually high incidence of such landings would it not be prudent - where there is a choice - to use another airport instead? ...Or is this not really a safety issue?

[MerchantVenturer]

Having read the full AAIB report it appears to me that the hard landing figures you quoted relate to Boeing 767-300 aircraft and not to all aircraft using BRS.

For a minute I thought you were asking if it would be prudent to close the airport altogether.

Assuming you are talking about 767s which other airport(s) have you in mind as alternatives?

The people whose opinions on this really count are the commercial pilots, especially those who use BRS, so the Passengers and SLF section might not be the best area of PPRuNe to collect such views.

I posted a link to the full AAIB accident report last night in the Bristol section of Airports, Airlines and Routes hoping for some comment from commercial pilots who fly in and out of BRS. So far no-one has responded, pilot or anyone else.

If you've read the full AAIB report, and I assume you have, you will know the report has addressed the issues thrown up and made recommendations.

[PAXboy]

Pax often ascribe the word 'hard' without (understandably) having any idea of the correct criteria for such a designation.

Way to go: http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/281795-bristol-4-a-100.html

[Daysleeper]

What a shame there is not another airfield nearby, not on the top of a hill and with good motorway and rail connections...:hmm:

[Dont Hang Up]

I once had the opportunity to chat at length with a 320 captain who operated regularly out of Bristol. While he actively enjoyed operating out of that airport he did admit to a slight dread of 09 landings.

The way he described it, one had to try and land on the "hump" fairly early in the touch down zone, otherwise the 320 would tend to float on "down the hill" for quite some distance.

[Stampe]

From the report

" The runway profile did not meet standards recommended in Civil Air Publication (CAP) 168 – ‘Licensing of aerodromes’,

Yet the airfield is Licensed ?????

[Dont Hang Up]

What a shame there is not another airfield nearby, not on the top of a hill
and with good motorway and rail connections...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif


I am sure that Cardiff would be desperately happy to stake that claim, but I am not sure that is what you meant.:8

[Capot]

Yet the airfield is Licensed ????? This is not the only airport in the UK where a substantial non-conformance with the required safety standards has been allowed to continue for decades by the UK CAA due to a deficiency in the balls department that prevents them from insisting on sufficient corrective investment as an alternative to closure.

Go roughly SW for a little way to find another.

As usual the CAA simply retreats when confronted with any organisation that is not afraid of them; ie any organisation bigger than a flying club.

Their enthusiastic support of SMS is largely because they have identified SMS as the ultimate cop-out for them from any responsibility for aviation safety. So why do we still keep them in cups of tea, subsidised lunches and massively over-generous salaries and pensions?

Pretty much all the good FOIs and Surveyors have now quit in disgust at what they were being asked to do. Of course many have simply moved on to one of the the two commercial training suppliers that the CAA so assidously supports to protect this escape route/income source for ex-CAA staff.

BTW, Les Wilson, one-time MD of |Bristol Airport, used to have nightmares that BAe (or its predecessors) might one day wake up to the fact that they owned the perfect airport, Filton, to develop as a West Country Airport and Heathrow reliever airport, with its site on the M4/M5 junction. But they never did.

[ExXB]

I am sure that Cardiff would be desperately happy to stake that claim, but I am not sure that is what you meant.:8
Filton? Ignoring the permanent traffic jam that is Cribb's Causeway shopping centre.

[Dont Hang Up]

I am sure that Cardiff would be desperately happy to stake that claim, but I am not sure that is what you meant.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/nerd.gif


Filton? Ignoring the permanent traffic jam that is Cribb's Causeway shopping
centre.


Indeed.

Filton may have been a prime spot at one time, but I suspect it is too hemmed-in now for any serious development. Shame though 'cos it's a long peice of tarmac and very well connected. BRS is a pain to get to.

[MerchantVenturer]

BTW, Les Wilson, one-time MD of |Bristol Airport, used to have nightmares that BAe (or its predecessors) might one day wake up to the fact that they owned the perfect airport, Filton, to develop as a West Country Airport and Heathrow reliever airport, with its site on the M4/M5 junction. But they never did.

Bae tried to turn Filton into a city airport in the mid 1990s but following a public enquiry the application was rejected.

Part of the Filton site has been sold off for housing and the runway is to close at the end of this year. Aviation and aerospace industries will continue at the site and in neighbouring ones though.

When the then Bristol Corporation decided that their city-owned Whitchurch Airport had become too small by the 1950s they opted to purchase the former RAF Lulsgate Bottom (by then home to a glider club) which, in fact, stored up similar problems for future generations that had caused them to close Whitchurch.

Myth has it (it may even be true) that they could have had the use of Filton for a peppercorn rent but it would have meant becoming a tenant of the owner/occupier (then the Bristol Aeroplane Company) so they opted for Lulgate which opened in 1957.

Had the Corporation gone to Filton and been able to establish a working relationship with the various owners down the years one wonders what sort of size in terms of passengers/carriers/routes an airport there would now be. It may not be fanciful to suggest it might be around the size of BHX.

I've strayed a bit from the subject. The runway (especially 09 under certain weather conditions) has featured in the past in PPruNe and pilots have pointed out that at times they earn their corn when landing there.

[CSman]

Having flown DC-3/Viscount/Bac1-11 on to RW09 AT Brs,I have to say it always was different visually from what one expects .but so many airfields around the world are, as professional pilots we live with these differences There was no ILS on 09,if you were lucky perhaps a QDM aided approach Not the ideal site for an airport,,I am suprised how well it as developed over the years,considering tht the ground access is very poor [It needs direct access from the M5]

[Sunnyjohn]

Having read the full AAIB report it appears to me that the hard landing figures you quoted relate to Boeing 767-300 aircraft and not to all aircraft using BRS.This is incorrect. What the report says is:

At the AAIB’s suggestion, the data was re-examined for each runway rather than each airport. This revealed that there had been six hard landings in 709 arrivals on Runway 09 at Bristol, and only one on Runway 27; therefore one in 118 landings on Runway 09 had been classified as ‘hard’. Neither the operator, nor any regulatory body, had defined an acceptable maximum rate for hard landings on a given runway.This quite clearly refers to all aircraft and is runway, not aircraft, specific. In the case of the landing described in the report, the crew had only flown into Bristol infrequently and were not familiar with runway 06. This, coupled with the unexpected weather conditions and their lack of knowledge of the vagaries of the runway was the cause of the hard landing. Most crew using BRS are familiar with it. As SLF I use it regularly and I wouldn't worry. The weather conditions at Bristol, it is true, are notoriously variable, unlike nearby Exeter, which is high, flat and has an excellent weather record. If you're really worried, fly in to Exeter and get the train to Bristol!

[Capot]

Part of the Filton site has been sold off for housing and the runway is to close at the end of this year. Aviation and aerospace industries will continue at the site and in neighbouring ones though.

The City Airport proposal came far too late. If BAe (or a predecessor) had been awake in the 1980s the airport could now be similar to BHX, as suggested above.

I realise that aerospace industry is not necessarily tied to a runway, but where it is there are infinitely more opportunities for it to flourish and grow. What an utterly foolish decision to close the runway.

[MerchantVenturer]

Sunnyjohn

I didn't intend to give the impression of being worried about flying into and out of Bristol. Like you I've been using this airport regularly as a passenger, for well over thirty years in my case, and shall continue so doing. I've been up in gliders and hot air balloons as well, though not from BRS. I'm far more worried about the antics of drivers on the road when I travel to and from the airport.

The report stated that there were 6 hard landings on 09 in 709 arrivals - one in 118.

In 2011 BRS saw over 52,000 air traffic movements (CAA stats), half of which would have been arrivals.

If we use the accepted statistic that the weather dictates that 09 is the active runway for about a third of the year then there would have been approximately 8,600 arrivals on 09.

Using the 1 for every 118 figure, if it applies to all aircraft then there would have been around 73 hard landings last year on 09.

This is why I took the hard landing figures to refer to 767s which are only seen in summer on the Mexico and Florida routes each week, with occasional appearances at other times: in the recent past there have been weekly 767s on summer Palma flights too. All this means that 767s alone would have taken several years to notch up 709 landings on 09.

[Sunnyjohn]

Filton may have been a prime spot at one time, but I suspect it is too hemmed-in now for any serious development. Shame though 'cos it's a long piece of tarmac and very well connected. BRS is a pain to get to. Having re--read the thread, I thought this was really funny. We come out of the airport entrance, turn right and there's a bus waiting. We get off at Bristol Temple Meads Station and walk straight in. Similarly on return. It must be one of the easiest airport in the country to access - by public transport, that is!

[MerchantVenturer]

Sunnyjohn

I agree that the Bristol Airport Flyer is extremely efficient. It's an airport operation run on their behalf by First Bristol under contract using the bus company's drivers and vehicles.

The 12-strong fleet of 37-seat liveried Volvos with ample internal luggage space operates at 10-minute intervals in both directions between airport and central rail station (Temple Meads) and country bus/coach station from around 0600 till mid evening then at 20-minute intervals until midnight followed by several journeys in both directions throughout the night.

The Flyer appears on the Temple Meads train destination boards and the airport is listed as a 'station' on the First Great Western booking system. It's possible to purchase through rail tickets on the national rail system to/from the airport with the last/first leg on the 25-minute Flyer journey between airport and rail station. The same through booking facility is also available with National Express and the local Bristol buses.

Given that BRS will never have a rail connection (the civil engineering needed to connect it with the main line would be immense) the Flyer is a decent alternative.

It carries over 600,000 passengers a year (just over 10% of the BRS passenger numbers) and its popularity grows steadily.

The beauty is that the 10-minute frequency would never be replicated by a rail system (if BRS had one) and there is always a bus waiting or arriving within a few minutes. Anyone spending an hour or two at Temple Meads rail station would see how popular it is with people travelling by train.

The airport will even let All England bus pass holders (pensioners bus passes) use it free from city to airport and vice versa.

[Standard Noise]

the unusually high rate of hard landings by Boeing 767 aircraft on Runway 09
Call me stupid if you will, but I read this as being indicative of only 767 landings rather than all aircraft using 09.

Since this type of incident is a known problem with 767's in hard nose down landings, why does it suddenly turn into an issue just at Bristol? Please tell me we're not going to go down the road of 'Bristol bashing' again, it's getting tiresome.:ugh:


were not familiar with runway 06
Nor indeed, am I, but if I see it out the window I'll be sure to let you know!;)

[WHBM]

....... I read this as being indicative of only 767 landings rather than all aircraft using 09.

Since this type of incident is a known problem with 767's in hard nose down landings, why does it suddenly turn into an issue just at Bristol?
Because the high rate of hard landings reported in the accident report is way out of line with those for 767s elsewhere. I don't know what the BA rate is for hard landings at Heathrow, but if it were a fraction of the 1 in 118 the report says Bristol experiences with the type on 09, then the 767 would have been long gone from the BA fleet.

As the report also identifies the runway does not meet CAP168 standards either, I would now expect a combination of operators and their insurers to remove the 767 from operations there. It would also be appropriate for the airport operator to come up with some very prompt plans to address the non-conformance.

[Westlakejawa]

As a matter of intrest a report in the Bristol Evening Post by Michael Ribbeck,Business Editor states "out of 709 landings FROM THE BATH direction 6 were classed as heavy."This was the articles main headline.!!!!

[sherburn2LA]

true hard landings may be a source of worry for the pilots and shareholders for passengers they should only bring a wry smile.

[fantom]

Relax.

BRS09 is not always easy but it's certainly no worse than many, many others I could mention. I served two years at BRS and never killed anybody. Amazing.

Pilots do difficult stuff sometimes and BRS09 is not that difficult.

[Heathrow Harry]

the old Singapore airport had a hell of a bump in the middle - I think Bangladesh Biman wrecked a plane on it -

SIA used to make their landings carrier style - very very positive on touchdown