Some Good News ?

[DEFCON4]

Battle To Recruit Pilots

Qantas Airways

Airlines may find themselves unable to take advantage of the expected boom in air travel if the issue of pilot shortages is not addressed, a senior aviation executive says.
Boeing's chief customer officer for flight services Roei Ganzarski says the aviation sector must do more to attract new people to a career as a pilot, as it has lost some of the romance of earlier decades.

Should nothing change, the potential consequences range from higher ticket prices as airlines cut back services to lower safety standards.

"Economics teaches us that for any demand supply will be met because you can make money there," Mr Ganzarski said in an interview.

"The question is and the concern is what type of supply. Will the quality diminish? Will the standards diminish?"

Europe and the US, where pilots have struggled to find work or been laid off as airlines either collapse or shrink, have proved a helpful pipeline of pilots for fast-growing airlines in South East Asia or the Middle East.

Jetstar group chief executive Bruce Buchanan said the low-cost carrier, which is a subsidiary of Qantas Airways, had a variety of recruitment options.

"We are working with our cadet program, we are working with our recruitment pipelines around the world," Mr Buchanan said in an interview with AAP in October 2011.

"Given the problems in Europe and North America, I can tell you we are getting huge numbers of applications out of those sorts of places where people see the opportunities to work for a fast-growing dynamic business like Jetstar in Asia."

While Jetstar according to Mr Buchanan had not experienced any problems with pilot numbers, other airlines have not been so lucky.

Mr Ganzarski said there were some examples where airlines have been unable to recruit competent and qualified people to operate a full schedule.

"There are some airlines out there that have brand new airplanes sitting on the tarmac because they are unable to find people to fly them," Mr Ganzarski said.

"That's not talking about growth, that is talking about just regular operations."

Boeing's 2011 pilot and technician outlook estimated that by 2030 the global aviation sector would require 460,000 new commercial airline pilots.

To meet this target, the Boeing report estimated that 1,200 new pilot instructors would be need to enter the industry every year for the next 20 years.

"Right now, the speed of the acceleration of growth in aviation is outpacing the ability of the labour pool to catch up, both in recruiting the labour and training the labour," Mr Ganzarski said.

Mr Ganzarski said young people in modern society valued having a formal qualification, such as a degree, when undertaking formal study.

However, learning to become a pilot often yielded just a licence to fly and no other professional qualifications.

"You are talking about a program that in fact authorises a person to put the lives of 200 passengers in their hands and get no academic degree," Mr Ganzarski said of pilot training courses.

"That is something we need to work on and change."
finance.ninemsn.com.au

[2p!ssed2drive]

virgin have already got the smarts and are recruiting well in advance... Creating a large hold file.
"up here for thinking" :)

[HF3000]

Roei Ganzarski is obviously living in the clouds.

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce is lauded by Australian business leaders for contracting the airline, passing off lucrative routes and coveted airport slots to competitors, parking aircraft and offloading pilots as quickly as he can.

Ganzarski must be severely misinformed.

[4Greens]

If Ganzarski cares to check he will find out that UNSW in Sydney offers a degree and pilot training.

[Sunfish]

For approximately Thirty years, the Japanese Government and industry deliberately overstated their demand forecasts for Iron ore, coal, Oil and other natural resources.

They borrowed from a much earlier retail technique for overstating demand for their suppliers products.

The desired effect was always the same:

1. Encourage new suppliers into the market and a general over investment in production capacity.

2. Drive down raw material prices as the new supply exceeds the actual demand.

3. Profit.


Nothing has changed. Believe in "booming demand for pilots" at your peril.

[Tankengine]

Can anyone give an example of anyone getting a pilot job because they had a degree?:confused:
Getting a jet command after many years in an airline is a higher "qualification" IMO.:ok:
Young people are not interested in aviation not because of a lack of degree but because of a lack of good carreer oportunities and conditions in airlines.:(

[chimbu warrior]

While Jetstar according to Mr Buchanan had not experienced any problems with pilot numbers, other airlines have not been so lucky.

Is this an attempt to suggest that Jetstar are the "employer of choice"........:{

[bigbrother]

Attracting new staff. 12 hour days. multiple nights in motels on a bag drag around .............. Disrupted sleep patterns, disgruntal partners and for pay not much different to a truck driver. Indeed in the mining industry, a lot less. Now, why is it they describe a difficulty in attracting new pilots?:ugh:

[Capt Kremin]

Can anyone give an example of anyone getting a pilot job because they had a degree

The US military require it. It is probably just a way to cull the number of applications though.

[ranmar850]

Attracting new staff. 12 hour days. multiple nights in motels on a bag drag around .............. Disrupted sleep patterns, disgruntal partners and for pay not much different to a truck driver. Indeed in the mining industry, a lot less. Now, why is it they describe a difficulty in attracting new pilots?:ugh:

Actually, you just described life in mining, unwittingly--12 hour days, away from home for between 8 and 14 nights at a time,ALL the time, disrupted sleep patterns for the majority who work dayshift/nightshift--if you haven't worked in mining, just bear that the hours are somewhat unsociable and long. I fall about laughing when I hear someone saying pilots are being" absolutely flogged " (recent quote from this forum) at 900 hours a year, and yes, I assume that is actual flight time.
Anyway, back on topic. This" looming pilot shortage" has been happening for a long time. It was being heavily touted when I did my PPL training in the early nineties.:rolleyes:

And I am sure that job satifaction, all up, must be greater in aviation than being a "dirt taxi "driver.

[Anthill]

Tankengine_ many overseas airline ask for a Degree when recruiting pilots. For example KAL. Most US airlines as well as the military expect all intake pilots to have a 4 year college Degree, not a Diploma.

A jet command may require years of study, however nobody outside of avaition will regard that as an equivalent qualification. An unemployed jet captain is suitably qualified for sales jobs at Bunnings, driving taxis, stacking shelves at Woolies and as a porter in hotels: just ask anyone fron Ansett, Compass, SAW, Ozjet or Strategic. Luckily, I have a degree and that would qualify me for a management position at Bunnings, Silver Top, Woolies and Hilton :p

ranmar- 900 hours per year means about 3x that time involved at work as a pilot. Flying is not the whole job! Home study, simulator, SEPs, Flight planning, pre-flight, turn arounds--all the other stuff that doesnt count for flight time but is still 'duty'.

Airbornesoon- headhunters will never be calling pilots for jobs whilst DoJ seniority exists. Why leave a job and go to the bottom of the list? This is why our T&Cs have stagnated over the last decade and a half. :sad:

[teresa green]

No doubt IT and mining cut into it, also the reluctance to chase those hours away from family and friends. Unless you are a cadet, and these days many parents are just keeping their heads above water, without having to get another mortgage for junior. The JQ flight from OOL/NTL is full of young miners, they work in the Hunter Valley five days, then home for three, and chatting to them they reckon they will have their mortgage paid in around three years time. Most are tradies who can no longer get work on the Goldie, and they are loving it, and they tell me they work along side some young professionals like Lawyers, a couple of young doctors, a dentist, and two vets, accountants and the like. Can you blame them?

[Wally Mk2]

I think part of the problem with regards getting newbies into the flying game is that being a pilot is really just a trade, a skill involving hands & mind. I've always felt that being a pilot is not a profession as such but a trade to be learnt like any other.
You don't even need any formal education mostly to fly a plane.
That along with what a few have said here means it's not an attractive option to youngsters anymore as it's expensive, your always only one medical away from never flying for a living again, it's an unstable industry these days & we pilots are fast becoming just average paid 'tradies' Good job we all love flying right?:ok:

I've got two trades behind me,motor mech & pilot, the latter I enjoy far more than a spanner turner!:-)

Wmk2

[AirborneSoon]

Youngsters are just not interested in the concept of a career anymore, because they know it's a defunct concept. When I left school the mantra was get into uni then get a career. Most people in my generation have now (after racking up large uni fees) been on the sharp-end of a redundancy. All our investment didn't buy us what was promised, stability, recognition and a ladder to climb. := You are lucky these days to stay 5yrs with one company, if greener pastures don't call you, a redundancy probably will.

Kids are not stupid. They know that in this kind of environment you skill up fast, get in and get out hopefully with an improvement on your resume you can leverage elsewhere. The really switched on ones don't bother with employment at all. They create a business knowing full well that's where the money is. :ok:

[Captain Gidday]

The bogus trade of 'manager' is actually where the money is! You don't have to be an 'owner of the means of production'. You can just act like you are.

[Anthill]

Only been retrenched once, Airbornesoon? Of the 7 airlines that I have worked for I have been retrenched from 4. Each time that happens...you go to the bottom of the list when you get a new job! What other industry does this?

Some years ago, I was asked by my daughter's school to give a talk to students regarding careers as a Pilot. When I reviewed what I would say to these high school kids, I thought "why would anyone do this job??'

Despite this. I have become moderately wealthy out of Aviation (mostly because I worked at Ansett for 10+ years when the job paid reasonably well). In 1990, my assets were a Datsun 180B and a really good stereo. The key to this is 1) a good relationship with a thrifty, no BS wife, kids at public schools and 2) I never got sucked into any 'tax minimising' (read: asset minimising) schemes.

In about 7-10 years time I will retire and extend the center digit at all of the w@nkers in the industry (which includes a good many pilots as well as managers) and go sailing and gliding when I want to and enjoy the water views from my top floor balcony in the company of a lovely lady and a crisp Sav Blanc, fLick you very much! :8

[Centaurus]

Ant did you join Ansett around '89?

If ever I have seen a loaded question that would be it. Watch out for the shot gun blast if you say yes...:mad:

[Lookleft]

not that it has any relevance to the topic but 10 years with Ansett and it folded in 2001 (effectively), do the maths.

[gobbledock]

Long live the mighty Datto! The 180B was a classic.
I learned to drive in mums Datsun 120Y. I learned how to do 'roll backs', 'line locks' and handbrake slides. It honed my skills for flying!!

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1EmQ9r3Oy2PoAsP0Y_80bsnReCBJ-soSIumSCqjR6TY3UDr6y

[Tankengine]

OK, regarding degrees, any jobs in Australia as a pilot requiring an AVIATION degree and paying more than a jet Captain.?:confused::hmm:

[Anthill]

The only instances that I know of regarding Degrees for pilots are as quoted in the USA and at KAL.

I degree helps for non-flying positions: management, CRM/NTS facilitation, safety investigation and the like.

I think that there is a need for Degree qualified people in avaition, but not as a vanila-flavoured line pilot.

Garzanski is correct that airlines need to do more to attract quality pilots and in the correct numbers. Perhaps Bachannan is right; that cadet schemes are the answer. Although this approach is non-traditional in the Australian context, where pilot recruits are seasoned GA or military, cadetships do address the problem.

Remember Australia is an Aviation backwater and that other countries have done avaition differently and very well for a long time.

What the industry needs to do (employers as well as unions) is recognise that piloting is a long-term vocation and react accordingly. Pilots need long term security of their trade. This means that the industry must incorporate mechanisms that ensure that people are attracted into the industry for the right reasons (aptitude, enthusiasm and dedication) and then have longivity of industry participation.

A system where skills that are built up over decades should be rewarded. Every time a company goes broke, many pilots and there knowledge are lost to the industry forever. It is often the most experienced people who change career or retire as 'seniority' ensures that they will not be rewarded for their abilities. Here, the industry loses as a huge volume of industrial and profession knowledge is lost forever.

Why would anyone become an airline pilot when you are forever expected to dig into your pocket to qualify yourself? Not everyone who gets an ATPL, a B737/A320 rating and a couple of years of 'bush' experience is suitable for airline employment-sad, but true. However, the hopefulls subsidise the airlines, not only buy paying for their own training, but also by providing revenue to the simulator centers. This later point reduces costs to the airlines for recurrency training of existing employees.

A good start would be a set of decent T&Cs backed up by portability of qualifications between companies. However, various vested interests will ensure that this wont happen. Not in my life-time :rolleyes:

{Datsun 180B- the 2nd best handling car I have owned. Passat VR6 with a Koni performance kit holds that accolade. 180B definatly had the best headlights-high beam was like 4 searchlights, illuminating country roads like daytime for about 500m :ok:}

[slice]

Glad I don't share a flight deck with "lookin' out for No. 1". But typical I guess, for individuals with that specific past employment profile.

[teresa green]

My "aviation degree" included loading freight carriages at night at White Bay in Sydney, working as a Flying Instructor during the day, and sleeping for about 3 hours a night, (sometimes in my car) not very safe when I think about it but then I was only 19. Somehow I got thru 49 years, and some double digit hours, and am still alive. Times sure have changed, perhaps for the better, but I would prefer a pilot out of the bush beside me, than a pilot out of a university, but perhaps that is my age.

[Wedcue]

Gold Gobbledock!! :)

[Propjet88]

Seem to remember being involved in a similar thread here (time flies)!
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/396544-airline-pilot-trade-profession.html

[Anthill]

Actually Slice, many of my attitudes have been shaped by observing the behaviours of people like you. :hmm: I know that if I don't look after me, you sure as sh1t wont!

I seem to remember many a young pilot being screwed over by individuals who claimed 'dibs' on several jobs at once. A tradition of bastardry that continues with the notion that Junior Pilots must lose so that the Senior Pilots can have a win.

Are those of your industrial pedigree all squeaky clean? I have a perfectly clear, clean industrial record and YOU are WAY OUT OF LINE in suggesting otherwise.

My support for a meritorious promotional process is rooted in mirco-economic concepts. Concepts that would advantage and further the stature and renumeration of our profession. What are your motives? Protecting your own ass? :yuk::yuk:

You choose to hide behind a list that protects you from talent and ability. So you are clearly looking after Number 1, aren't you. Except YOU claim that it is for some noble reason, which it plainly isn't :cool:

Pardon me while I just laugh in your face :p:8:p:8:p:8:p:8:p:8:p

[2p!ssed2drive]

http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif

[Wedcue]

Sweet, a b!tch bash!

[Zoomy]

I guess there is no good news after all!

[Cravenmorehead]

Anthill obviously did join Ansett in 1989. Whether he deserves the hard times or not is debatable. I know,and are friends with plenty of people who joined in 89. I nearly did but could not make the interview because I was so bloody busy flying that I could not get to the inteview and eventually decided to stay out of it. I am glad I did now, in hindsight. Hey in 1983 all I had was a Datsun 180B and a really ****ty stereo and one Billy Joel tape, An Inoccent Man. I have flown jets and had a ton of fun. At present I have a great job working really hard overseas. I have met lots of people had great, times and in maybe 5 years-I hope- will leave it all and ride my bike with my chick around Asia and NZ. I am a millionaire now, and flown for 31 years, starting as soon as I left school. I never had a degree but wish I did and recommend it to any one interested in starting a career in aviation, if not for a more balanced view on life, and the maturity that uni eventually gives you. I have flown with FO,s, guys and girls, that have done degrees and those that have not and I must say that those that have the degrees are better more rounded pilots, then again I have met some real naturals who have no tertiary education. All I can say is go with the flow and take lots of photos, and meet and respect a good woman or man and when you do, do anything for them and keep e'm.
Craven





Craven

[Dragun]

Give it a rest Tankengine. The argument has been done to death, reborn and done to death again about a thousand times over. Some of us have degrees, some of us don't. We work as pilots. End of story.

Mods - please can any more threads about degrees!

[Tankengine]

So the answer is NO then?:E

[ozaggie]

That bloke Craven. Summed it up, really!

[Anthill]

Actually Craven, I joined Ansett when the dispute was wayyyy over, done and dusted....and not during 1989 at all :ok:

I am often bemused when some pilots are so self-confident in incorrect conclusions that are founded on subjective interpretations. A dangerous practice, really.

Oh well...:bored:

[slice]

Well I seem to have hit a raw nerve with No. 1:} An individual who has found himself at the bottom of several seniority lists and seems to be eternally bitter at their existence.

the behaviours of people like you

Oh I see. What are these behaviours of people like you ?


Are those of your industrial pedigree all squeaky clean? I have a perfectly clear, clean industrial record and YOU are WAY OUT OF LINE in suggesting otherwise.

If I understand the question correctly (those what ?) then...ahhh...yes it is. As Lookleft points out, that period was, how shall we say, special. So no, I am not WAY OUT OF LINE to suggest that it is entirely possible that you were taking ambit advantage of the industrial situation at the time.

My support for a meritorious promotional process is rooted in mirco-economic concepts

The micro-economic concept being basically it's all about your micro-economic situation, yes?:} Who decides what 'merit' is applicable and who asseses this 'merit'. In previous rants on the evils of 'datal seniority' you have never provided any detail on the concept of 'merit'.

What are your motives? Protecting your own ass?

I had no 'motive' as such in my post. Just an expression of gratitude and a glaring observation.

You choose to hide behind a list that protects you from talent and ability. So you are clearly looking after Number 1, aren't you. Except YOU claim that it is for some noble reason, which it plainly isn't

I chose nothing other than the organisation I work for!:confused: If I understand correctly you are implying that a datal seniority list protects me from talent and ability!?! How is that? The same checking standards apply to all flight crew (at least anywhere I have worked). Am I right in thinking that what you really seek is prior recognition of flight experience (which is not merit). As such yes, a seniority list, will 'protect' you. But by the same token it also protects you from fleet and base displacement, which many crew in 2 of the large domestic operators have discovered to their cost when they don't have it. What is this noble reason I have claimed? Are you confusing me with someone else?

Pardon me while I just laugh in your face

and finishing with an infantile sign off. Nothing more needs to said about the content of your character then - you said it yourself.

[Anthill]

Speaking of raw nerves Mr Slice...:8




If I understand the question correctly (those what ?) then...ahhh...yes
it is. As Lookleft points out, that period was, how shall we say, special. So
no, I am not


...is incomprehensible waffle.

The fact is, Slice, is that you have repeatedly chosen to offend me in this forum in two ways: First, by saying that I joined Ansett at 'an inconvenient time'. I have told you several times that I applied, was interviewed and subsequently employed at a time when the dispute was OVER, This is a fact that you should just accept. Your persistant failure to accept this is irrational. And offensive.

Secondly, your continued assertion that my opposition to datal seniority is based on some manifest personal greed is also irrational. If I say that I think DS is a form of labour market regulation that skews the supply side of the equasion in favour of employers, it is because I mean it. I have asserted several times that I think that the pilot group as a whole would benefit from ditching DS. Many have agreed with me. Many others disagreed and brought up some valid concerns. That is the basis of a rational debate. Several, such as yourself say that I am against DS for reasons of pure self-interest.

The reality is that you have no means to determine what goes on in my head other than what I write, do you? You only imagine that I am motivated by self-interest, don't you. So, here again, your "lookin' out for No. 1 is also way out of line. Aside from being out of line, it is also irrational and based on pure conjecture. And offensive.



So no, I am not



Quote:
...to suggest that it is entirely possible that you were taking ambit advantage
of the industrial situation at the time.




Yes you are. Appologise immediately!:*

If you want details on what would define merit, then why not ask nicely?

My post:

The application of datal seniority is full of holes anyway. Witness the number of companies that say they promote datally, yet find loopholes or massage the system to promote who they want. A proper 'merit' based system would have a promotions committee with representation from the C&T system and unions and even a rank and file nominated observer as well as management. This would ensure fairness and transparency

and I'll say it again:

When you challege the sacred cow of seniority, you invite all sorts of accusations from being a 'queue jumper' to $c@b. Have you not heard,that those who use some common sense approach to promotion are howled down as being down there with the kiddy fiddlers? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


Obviously...:rolleyes:

Slice, your behaviour towards me has been continually irrational and offensive. Whatever your problem is , get over it.

[Tidbinbilla]

Some good news at last?

This thread is clo...