Mustang

[spekesoftly]

Tuesday 12/02/02 CH4 20.00 - 21.00 'Battle Stations'

A look at the P-51 Mustang.

[Tiger_ Moth]

Great! I almost got disillusioned with that series after they did that one about shipping...

[FNG]

Hi there Tigger, what's wrong with the ships? Wouldn't have been many Mustangs flying without the Liberty Ships to bring their bits, and their go-go juice. Not glamorous, perhaps, but mucho importanto.

Did you see last night's (5/2/02) prog? Although ostensibly about that well known cockernee euphemism, the Sherman Tank, it turned out to be more of a potted history of the Normandy campaign, and seemed quite reasonable within the confines of less than an hour. I don't recall seeing that footage of the four Typhoons peeling off to rocket a railway before. Sad shots followed of the aftermath on the ground near Falaise, as a reminder of just how grim it gets when organised industrialised states slug it out. As before, "Commandos" followed up with the human element. Really admirable how the programme makers managed to use humour (including nervous looking Action Men jumping out of carboard Whitleys) without in any way detracting from the seriousness of the subject or the dignity of the participants.

[polzin]

You Brits must come see Oshkosh and the Reno Air Races!!!! Cant say you have lived a full life unless you do. Honestly , at Oshkosh I got tired of looking at P-51's. Just too many . IF THAT IS POSSIBLE!! Im not spelling Oshkosh correctly , am I?

[Vfrpilotpb]

Polzin,

A few years ago I supplied quiet a number of RR Griffon and associated props and spares to one of the well known racers out at Reno(Gary Levitz) and had an open invitation to be part of their team out there in the desert, unfortunatly he was killed flying a hybrid P51, whilst I have the mind to go the USofA, I fear that my wife would not really appreciate my detour to anything like that, nor do I think I could get there on my own, the same leg iron rule's with a grip of that approaching Mrs Thatcher, so I will always drool at the sound and views of any P51(The Cadillac of the Sky)as they pound their way to the clouds, through the efforts of "Merlin the Magnificent" whose sound and decibels are only bettered by the deep growl of the Griffon! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[LowNSlow]

Guess which aeroplane was first referred to as a "Spam Can" by it's crews. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Yup, you've guessed it, the P-51. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Apparently the ex P-47 drivers felt cramped in the European style cockpit. Designed to a British spec, dontcha know (as I'm sure you do :) ).

Beautiful beast. Want one, want one badly. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Tiger_ Moth]

FNG, shipping was definetely very important and also dangerous but not very interesting to someone like me, especially because it was about merchant shipping. Doesnt quite compare with spitfires whirring about the skies. I really liked the way it gave you an inside view from the spitfire in flight, just as you'd see if you were flying it, something which isnt shown in most programmes.. .By the way I bought Flypast magazine and a magazine about the world's flying spitfires came with it. It said there were about 50 left. How many flying mustangs are there left?. .And, in the highly hypothetical situation that I was looking to buy a spitfire or mustang, how much would it cost me? Would £1M and £0.5M respectively be about right?

[Wunper]

At risk of being "moderated" <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> I would thoroughly recommend a squint at this URL the book in question is ROLLS ROYCE and the MUSTANG by D Birch, The MERLIN IN PERSPECTIVE is very good too!

<a href="http://www.rolls-royce.com/history/heritage/publications.htm" target="_blank">http://www.rolls-royce.com/history/heritage/publications.htm</a>

Wunper <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[FNG]

Hi Tiger_Moth, there are, I believe, between 70 and 100 P-51s in flying condition worldwide, although some of them have been chopped about and hotted up for the Reno air races (ruined I would say, but that's a matter of opinion). You probably need to revise your costs estimates upwards for both, although you are in the right ball park. I have always been one for instant gratification (I want it, and I want it now!), but in the case of a Spitfire (Mark IX preferably), I have a twenty year plan. OK, make that ten years (as I'll only be fifty then and not too stiff to climb in and out of the thing). Want to go halves, circa 2012?

[pulse1]

I was in Chino a couple of years ago and met a fascinating character called Lee Irwin who was building a "new" P51 every six months. His order book was full for the next 5 years. During my two day visit there was hardly a moment when there wasn't a P51 in the circuit (plus lots of other interesting machines which, for a short time included me in a Stearman but that's another story).

[Biggles Flies Undone]

Just returning to the ‘recreation / re-enactment’ theme.

My son is fascinated by all things military and especially WW11. Last year I took him over to Normandy for a tour of the invasion beaches – a very worthwhile experience and I was much impressed with the friendliness of the locals and the obvious respect they had for the allied forces that liberated them. Looking to do a repeat this year and was surfing the web for ideas at the weekend – discovered by chance that there is a fairly major ‘re-enactment’ of the landings at the American beaches (Omaha & Utah) at the beginning of June. From what I could see of the details on the web, it looked as if there would be a pretty good turnout of Warbirds.

Whatever, it gets us away from all the Golden Jubilee malarky, so I’m booking the ferry!

[Tiger_ Moth]

FNG, do you really have a plan to buy a spitfire? If so you must be very rich. I have a plan to get one too but it relies on me winning the lottery or finding buried treasure. I agree that a MKIX is best because the later ones with Griffon engines lack the classic spitfire look and the MK1s lack power (and probably availability).. .I have a ten year plan too but at the end of it I will be at the poorest point in my life but I will be a flying instructor: 3 years university, 6 years boring but decently paid job, 1-2 years spending savings on being a flying instructor.. .So, ten years from now I will probably be in debt but if I do have several hundred thousand pounds ( or euros?) kicking about I couldnt think of anything better to spend it on than a share in a spitfire. . .Which raises an interesting question: What would it's annual maintenance costs probably be? And what would it's hourly running costs be and how much fuel would it use per hour (in gallons)?

By the way, on a totally unrelated topic: I hate winter "flying". I havent flown for more than 2 months despite having booked every week and I won't be flying any time soon either because although high pressure is coming along for the weekend I just happened to be unable to book for this weekend!

[polzin]

Undone... .Can u give me a web address for the Normandy reenactment? Love to attend.

Vfr....... .I was not able to attend the year Levitz went in, but my brother was just on the other side of the fence on the back stretch and saw the accident . Went straight in from about 300 feet at 400+ per hour. You can get amazingly close to the airplanes there and it is free.. . . .On page 350 of one of the best WW II books I have ever read, there is a reference to the historical development of the Merlin. The book is Blood, Tears, and Folly by Len Deighton, available at Barnes and Noble in the states for $13 ! . .Fairey tried out the American Curtis D-12 in a Fairey Fox and was impressed with the increase in speed. RR designed one exactly like it, the Kestrel. RR improved that engine into the Merlin.

[FNG]

Hey, TM, I did say it was a plan, and aviation is, as we know, full, of plans which go nowhere. This particular plan is more than a pipe dream but less than a certainty. If I was very rich I would be out buying (or flying) a Spitfire now, not planning to be in a position to buy one in ten years time. Anyway best of luck in fulfilling your ambitions, and, if the plan comes off, you can come and have a go in the thing.

PS: join the UAS: wish I'd done that!

PPS: don't worry about winter: my log book has been empty in January for the last three years running, but quite full for the last three Februarys. This one looks to be no exception: managed 50 minutes of hooligan aeros this morning before putting in a cheerful afternoon's work. Particularly bad conditions for DH82s this Jan because of the high winds, but I bet you'll have your PPL before the summer is out.

[polzin]

VFR..... .How did u acquire the engines and props?

What does an griffon engine cost today?

At google.com Rare Bear they state that stock R3350's are now going for $25 to 50 thousand , up from 5 thousand just a few years ago.

[ 12 February 2002: Message edited by: polzin ]</p>

[Biggles Flies Undone]

Polzin, I was using my son's PC. Will be down there this weekend - I'll look up the URL and post it for you.

[CamelPilot]

Me too please P.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Watched the "Battle Stations" feature on the P-51 last night. Superb, Superb! Ooooooo that Byooootiful airplane! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Vfrpilotpb]

Polzin,

In order of asking,

1/.Secret,. .2/. About £18K now, according to my contact none about for the mo.

Sad thing is, Gary Levitz used the Griffon 58 with the contra props cut down so to allow take off without fouling the tips, but becuase of the short (so called) endurance of the races they only re-balanced the props with a weight scale they didnt match the pair as was done by De-Havilland the original prop manufacture, then they mounted the Griffon directly onto the engine carrier missing out the big squelchy rubberoid shock absorbers, they stated that the egine would not create any vibration problems for the short time in the race for it would over come vibes by being flat out!(they used a injector in place of a Spark plug, to inject Nitro, that boosted the power to a max 4000 hp for the duration of the race, and changed the engine for every race) a good friend of mine who was there told me that the P51 Hybrid broke up from the area just in front of the grafted lear wings, so quite possibly the unbalanced props+ the directly mounted Griffon+ possible wing flutter tore the a/c to pieces, very sad, because it was one of my engines fitted at the time, or so I was informed.. .Levitz Rogers would supply anyone with a P51 of any design or engine config, for a basic $1m Plus extra's.. .They took 16 engines and 20 sets of props, plus Csu's and translation units, plus about 60 Mags and coil sets, along with two Merlins and various Spit parts in two 40ft containers. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Tiger_ Moth]

I can't join the UAS. I made enquiries and it seems they don't want my kind, because of eyesight, if I could then I probably wouldn't go to university at all and I'd just try to join the RAF after A levels.. .I definetely won't have my PPL by the end of the summer because I don't have enough money for that but I should have had a great summers flying with some aerobatics and solo flights. Also, I applied for that Caernarfon full PPL cadetship so there's a very small chance I could get my PPL that way. I don't mind about getting a PPL that much as long as I spend all my money on loads of flying and have a good 3 month long summer holiday.

That mustang programme was very good. I liked the bits where it showed you the mustang flying around from inside. Does anyone know what next weeks is about?

[Ivchenko]

Great archive shots (esp. the Jugs) but the staged ground stuff was painful. Complete with unlit ciggies. Miss Helen must have had a very clean spinner by the end!

[spekesoftly]

Tiger_M ... next week V1/V2 rockets, see new post.

[polzin]

Thanks VFR

If you ever even think about coming to Reno please E me. Sept 11 to the 14 this year . The last day is the must attend day because everyone turns up the boost for the final day of racing.. .The unlimited catagory is definitely a rich man's sport.. .Rare Bear , a highly modified Bearcat, won every race several years ago. Won all the prize money possible to win. That year the owner/pilot said it only cost him $50,000 . Thats after the prize money !!!

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: polzin ]</p>

[LowNSlow]

Anybody want a Merlin 135 as fitted to the dH 103 Hornet?

There's a chap on the PFA website selling one for GBP10k.

[BeauMan]

Tiger_Moth; Trying to get into Cranwell without a degree is nigh on impossible these days. I managed it ten years ago, but even then, most of us lowly DE's were chopped by the end of the course. Regardless of what the Careers Information Office (are they still called that now) might tell you about equal opportunities, you're much better off having a degree in your back pocket when you pitch up there.

[polzin]

Back to Mustang......

I have read reference to the much improved and inventive cooling system of the Mustang which allowed for a much lower drag airframe but have never been able to get any of the particulars. Anyone know ??

[polzin]

Just happens to be an article on P-51 replics at <a href="http://www.kitplan.com." target="_blank">www.kitplan.com.</a> Always a couple at Reno. They Sound great too. Wonder how much the one built in Czech costs ?

[Mycroft]

wrt LowNSlows post, Merlin 135 would require major work to be used on anything else, as most auxillary components relocated into wing to minimise cross section. Hornet also had handed engines; not certain atm what hand 135 was- bit embarassing if prop turns backwards.

[LowNSlow]

That's probably why it's cheap (ish).

It was the most powerful of the Merlins or so I was told.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

Polzin & CamelPilot, I'm feeling a bit red faced about this Normandy re-enactment.... I went through the internet history cache looking for the relevant URL and all I could find was this:

<a href="http://www.normandy44.org.uk/n44contents.html" target="_blank">http://www.normandy44.org.uk/n44contents.html</a>

I remember reading about something far more substantial, but it was quite late on a Saturday night ('nuff said) and maybe my memory was playing tricks on Sunday morning. If I find anything more substantial I'll let you know. Sorry to get your hopes up <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Mycroft]

The Merlin 135 was 1670hp, was LH (ie reverse to standard) with reversed coolant flow and side mounted coolant pump (both to reduce profile). The distinguishing feature was the use of a Corliss throttle (unrestricted intake when fully open and very low opening torque). Only 45 were made, 1949-50.

[polzin]

Biggels......

No problem mate. What would be the best/easy way to get to Normandy from England ? I must go there some day and I have a 13 year old nephew who I want to be an international person and I forsee a trip in our near future. Thanks....

[henry crun]

By landing craft was quite popular at one time but I don't know if they still run. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Biggles Flies Undone]

henry you are such a wag <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

polzin, it couldn't be much easier, really. If you are starting in London the quickest way is the ferry from Dover (about a 90 minute drive away) - takes around an hour to Calais and the it's about a 3 hour drive at the other end. The tunnel from Ashford is about the same. I live further West so went Newhaven to Dieppe - in summer it's a 2 hour crossing and 90 minute drive afterwards. Further West still and you can go Portsmouth to Caen - about a 6 hour crossing but you end up right on the doorstep.

I can thoroughly recommend the experience. Apart from the military aspect (loads to see) the people are friendly, food wonderful and there is mile upon mile of deserted beaches and sand dunes to relax on (plus the occasional gun emplacement still clearly showing signs of battle damage).

Go for it! Drop me an e mail if you want further details or suggestions.

[Throtlemonkey]

Here's a p51 for sale, (buying a lotto ticket) i don't think they come on the market to often But the pick of the bunch is the h model. black P51 (http://www.aircraft.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?guid=odhzs4gk&pcid=1113082&etid=1&OHID=1041 563&nh=0)